Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 01, 2007, 01:19:07 PM
Seems like people are already calling Nintendo's online stance on the Wii a disaster. Why? It seems third parties don't know what is going on with Nintendo and online gaming. They want to implement online elements in their games, but for some reason Nintendo isn't helping them out.
Square has already mentioned that they are in heavy talks with Nintendo about working around their strict online policy. And a Majesco rep seems too annoyed by the issue because everyone is asking about Cooking Mama Wii being online and they can't really answer it.
As expected, there's a whole debacle over at Go Nintendo in the comments section of this article.
Now its time to put the NWR spin on it! Do you think that Wii online could be even worse than GC online or are the fans being bitches about it?
In my opinion, I agree that Nintendo NEEDS to be less strict about online games. Its true that they want the safest online experience possible, but they really shouldn't sacrifice accessibility for the sake of safety. But I think fans are expecting too much from Nintendo. The system was just released and already has some basic online components running. The biggest online gaming service, XBOX Live, took nearly a year for it to establish itself, and MS is more than willing to take MS online. If it took them a year, then what makes you think that Nintendo will have things set up by the end of spring?
I said it once and I'll say it again, online games will appear in late summer or early fall. Fans need to chill a bit.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 01, 2007, 01:24:07 PM
Go Nintendo needs to be added to the word filter.
Post by: Deguello on February 01, 2007, 01:24:23 PM
In the past Online-topic threads usually turn into a huge pile of bitch. I hate re-runs.
Post by: Mario on February 01, 2007, 01:25:24 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 01, 2007, 01:39:28 PM
Post by: Crimm on February 01, 2007, 04:03:46 PM
Post by: denjet78 on February 01, 2007, 04:18:38 PM
And the comparisons to Live are very much justified. MS had been developing the system for AGES and it still took forever to get the XBox online. Hell, is the PS3 online network even up yet?
Post by: TrueNerd on February 01, 2007, 05:47:25 PM
But then again, I'm someone who very much prefers the single player aspect of games as opposed to multiplayer ones, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask.
Post by: darknight06 on February 01, 2007, 05:56:47 PM
Post by: Mario on February 01, 2007, 06:00:02 PM
Pokemon is online, and that's all I really wanted.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 01, 2007, 06:13:08 PM
Post by: darknight06 on February 01, 2007, 06:13:40 PM
Post by: Adrock on February 01, 2007, 06:33:04 PM
Post by: wandering on February 01, 2007, 06:44:35 PM
Quote
And the comparisons to Live are very much justified. MS had been developing the system for AGES and it still took forever to get the XBox online.
MS was online a year after they first started making consoles. Nintendo's been making consoles for twenty years.
Quote
I think Nintendo needs to do something about friend codes. I think some games need to be allowed to exist without them. Maybe just make it games that get a certain ESRB rating. I mean if they're worried about protecting children don't do it in games that kids should be protected from playing to begin with.
What parents should do is irrelevant. All that matters is what they actually do.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 01, 2007, 06:51:28 PM
Play against anyone, even add them to your friends list. Give the option to show the status of the people on your list. (Invisible, Playing Game X, browsing the weather, etc.) but unless you have exchanged friend codes, they can't send pms or chat in game. If they have custom avatars or icons, they are blocked out as well. Heavy filter on their usernames too.
Post by: Crimm on February 01, 2007, 07:22:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: wanderingQuote
I think Nintendo needs to do something about friend codes. I think some games need to be allowed to exist without them. Maybe just make it games that get a certain ESRB rating. I mean if they're worried about protecting children don't do it in games that kids should be protected from playing to begin with.
What parents should do is irrelevant. All that matters is what they actually do.
I recognize that, however they could argue that because parents clearly don't do a good job policing their kids' games that they should revert to the "no blood on Nintendo consoles." I think there is a point where the game's content should be such that it allows developers more leeway on their online options.
If the game is rated M then I don't see why it should be handicapped by the friend code system.
Post by: Plugabugz on February 01, 2007, 08:59:46 PM
I reckon the friend codes for each Wii merely acts as a foundation to the online implementation, where some games can build upon it (pokemon, for example, given it's primary target audience).
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 01, 2007, 09:18:44 PM
Post by: Nephilim on February 01, 2007, 10:10:13 PM
Its like people who say "I own 10 DVD players, glad wii doesnt have that feature"
Post by: Hocotate on February 01, 2007, 11:09:17 PM
Post by: denjet78 on February 01, 2007, 11:46:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: wanderingQuote
And the comparisons to Live are very much justified. MS had been developing the system for AGES and it still took forever to get the XBox online.
MS was online a year after they first started making consoles. Nintendo's been making consoles for twenty years.
MS has been HEAVILY involved with the internet since it first began. Why in the world did it take them a year after launch to get a closed network up and running on a video game console? It doesn't matter how long they've been making consoles for, they're internet knowledge blows Nintendo out of the water every time and yet it still took them a year to get their network up and running. Again, comparisons are more than fair.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 02, 2007, 12:24:33 AM
What Nintendo does is provides developers with a service, if they want to use they can. But that doesn't stop them from using their own networks. Unlike Live, Nintendo's service is "open" meaning if they have the stucture they can use their own service instead of Nintendo's. A good example is Disney they have their own servers which they are using for their upcoming Disney Game that has a lobby and multiplayer elements from the lobby and no mention of friend codes. The Maple Story may use a simular thing they will use their own servers to present their game by passing Nintendo's.
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2007, 01:45:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: TrueNerd
I'd be pretty content if all the Wii ever allowed me to do online was to download classic games I missed out on. I don't really need some 11 year old yelling racial slurs at me while playing Smash Bros.
But then again, I'm someone who very much prefers the single player aspect of games as opposed to multiplayer ones, so maybe I'm not the right person to ask.
Ditto. Though there are a few games I like online because it just makes to much sense. (Pokemon MMORPG I'm looking at you.)
Post by: Adrock on February 02, 2007, 01:59:34 AM
Quote
DeadlyD wrote:
I hate when people say "online play sucks"
Its like people who say "I own 10 DVD players, glad wii doesnt have that feature"
Congratulations, you make sense (not sarcasm).
Online isn't necessary, but if done right, it can only make a game better.
Post by: JonLeung on February 02, 2007, 02:00:30 AM
QuoteProbably a moot point but the Internet was around for a few decades before most people got a hold of it in the nineties. And Bill Gates supposedly didn't think the Internet was useful at all until Mozilla's first browser, or something like that.
Originally posted by: denjet78
MS has been HEAVILY involved with the internet since it first began. Why in the world did it take them a year after launch to get a closed network up and running on a video game console? It doesn't matter how long they've been making consoles for, they're internet knowledge blows Nintendo out of the water every time and yet it still took them a year to get their network up and running. Again, comparisons are more than fair.
I thought the DS online adoption rate was bragged to be so much faster than the Xbox's. When it first got online I thought I heard that a sizeable fraction of people who had Mario Kart DS took it online within the first week or two.
A Mario Kart game for the Wii, or Super Smash Bros. Brawl, will certainly push online. No question there, but I guess that's not the issue...
Post by: nitsu niflheim on February 02, 2007, 02:08:47 AM
Post by: Adrock on February 02, 2007, 02:31:39 AM
I just don't see how Nintendo can be so strict with the games yet provide the trial version of Opera for free. Isn't that just as dangerous? I've been told that you can access myspace and porn. I'm too lazy to test it out myself because typing "boobs" on google is too much of a hassle for me using the Wii remote and if I really wanted, I have a computer right here anyway. I just don't know what the friend codes do anything except hassle everyone.
Post by: JonLeung on February 02, 2007, 02:43:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nitsu niflheim
do you think it would be difficult for a developer to bypass Nintendo's online friend code system. In theory I suspect that it could be rather easy, I mean the internet channel doesn't seem to use the friend code to browse the internet, so why doesn't a developer just bypass the codes and connect directly to their own servers and all that jazz. would make most online games more user friendly.
They technically can, but seeing as how every game "licensed by Nintendo" for play on a Nintendo system probably goes through a screening process, maybe not so much in content these days, but modes like online they will likely do look at, so they wouldn't be able to get that by them.
I was surprised when I saw that CastleVania: Portrait Of Ruin (DS) allowed you to visit random people's shops without needing their Friend Codes. I only went online with Mario Kart DS for one day long before so I had forgotten that there was a mode in that too where could race people of a similar skill level that you might not personally know. (I haven't gone online with Metroid Prime: Hunters.) If there was voice chat or a way to communicate with people that you find and play against randomly, they could give you their friend code, so it's not really that different other than the slight inconvenience to the players, isn't it?
Remember the commercial for the Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection with the ninjas? You can go against random people and similarly skilled people and they even advertised this.
I suppose the issue is that we'd want the convenience of just leaving our online code/gamertag/username on a forum and be challenged by or play with anybody from that forum instead of registering all of them individually. But if you're old enough to be on an Internet forum you're old enough to know not to give personal information to people you meet online that you don't know and shouldn't trust.
On that note about the Opera browser/Internet Channel, I'm surprised that there's no disclaimer about the uses of it. Maybe the final version will have such a warning screen, not that we would want it.
Post by: couchmonkey on February 02, 2007, 03:16:23 AM
Post by: Edfishy on February 02, 2007, 04:33:20 AM
Something that may be an interesting fix for the casual gamers is to force a player to go through a "Party Mode" when playing on-line against unknown players. The Party Mode would require a player to bring a few friends with him into the on-line game during his first X.xx hours, thereby boosting the confidence of the casual gamer through strength in numbers. After a few sessions, the casual player should no longer be considered a "newbie" and will be free to play alone, if he desires. Alternatively, if the player chooses to bypass the "Party Mode" and simply "Go it Alone"(A hardcore gamer's choice), he'll be given a brief warning about the potential courtesy of other players and a suggestion to "bring some backup".
Post by: Pittbboi on February 02, 2007, 04:51:46 AM
Quote
What Nintendo does is provides developers with a service, if they want to use they can. But that doesn't stop them from using their own networks. Unlike Live, Nintendo's service is "open" meaning if they have the stucture they can use their own service instead of Nintendo's.
I don't know. If it were really so easy for developers to bypass Nintendo's crappy friend code system, I don't think developers would be complaining about it. They'd just be making the online games they wanted. But so many developers have said the reason why their Wii games aren't online is because of the Wii's shoddy online structure, and now developers are outright lambasting it. That's bad. This isn't like Nintendo's lack of graphical/HD capabilities in comparison to the competition: Their online structure is something that they can and SHOULD change. Even if these are games that you personally don't care about, the fact that the Wii is missing out on any games and/or features, or frustrating developers needlessly with an online system that they can change (and almost their entire fanbase and developer network WANTS them to change) is BAD. Especially now that the Wii is supposed to be the console for everyone.
Quote
Though there are a few games I like online because it just makes to much sense. (Pokemon MMORPG I'm looking at you.)
yes, Yes, YES. I have not played a Pokemon game since Yellow was released, and this is STILL the game that would make me cream my pants.
Post by: Nephilim on February 02, 2007, 05:20:11 AM
Quote
Online isn't necessary, but if done right, it can only make a game better.
whats that got to do with nintendo kids saying "online gaimg sucks, i demand nintendo dont do it" attitude?
companys are making 100s of millions of dollars of online
GAW 360 was mainly hyped because of its online coop, halo1&2 for online play, heck im sure if red steel had online (even its its broken state) everyone would of bought it just for a online wii game
Post by: Ian Sane on February 02, 2007, 05:29:10 AM
But it seems that if other companies have found an ideal solution Nintendo's own take always f*cks things up somehow. They seem focused on doing things different but their focus should be doing things BEST. That means doing something different when there are problems involved in existing ideas but also implementing good ideas other companies come up with. If someone else had found the perfect solution Nintendo somehow finds a way to screw it up.
Online gaming is not that new of concept. Other consoles have done it and it's been done on PCs for years. Nintendo is behind. They should be using the experience of other companies to their advantage. But instead they're doing it their way even though it isn't needed. They're doing something weird for no reason. I just wish that in situations where Nintendo was the follower they just did things as people expect instead of always being different.
We don't want to use friend codes. Somehow online gaming in it's numerous forms has not required this so quit making everything screwy.
Plus in this case I see the potential for "Nintendo's wacky solution to a problem that didn't exist or was already solved" to turn away third parties. Not like cartridges did but still. After ten years of sh!tty third party support (and shrinking market share to go with it) Nintendo shouldn't be giving third parties excuses to not support them, particularly when it is because of a policy Nintendo is in complete control of.
And if Nintendo isn't providing third parties with the proper tools to go online then that's completely unacceptable regardless of what online solution they use. That's like not supplying dev kits.
Post by: Kairon on February 02, 2007, 07:26:50 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 02, 2007, 07:53:32 AM
YOU WILL SAY WOW
Post by: Shecky on February 02, 2007, 12:50:36 PM
2) I'm sure the *final* dev kits have access to the wireless nic; however, Nintendo may be slow to provide the hooks into it's own integrated "Nintendo Wi-Fi" architecture. That doesn't prevent you from making online games, it just give the developers an easy out to say that they didn't bother b/c it wouldn't be like other online offerings.
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2007, 01:46:12 PM
When I go online to play a game I want to play a game. I use to be big into Counter Strike back in the day. I enjoy the game and how the teams work. Why I got out? I got tired of everyone claiming everyone else was cheating and then all the talk became terrible. Then voice chat came and it got worse.
Then in PSO all I wanted was to get a group and kill things with the group. Sometime it worked out but sometime people just sat there and talk. Which was annoying and sort of hard with the GCN controller.
Now with my friends sure, I love to exchange strategy while playing. Other people its way to much a crab shoot going more and more to the bad side.
Though I would like to be able to invite people after a game to talk but I could live without that.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 02, 2007, 02:21:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ceric
Frankly I have no want or need to talk with people I don't know on a game. Unless thats part of the game. Thats my favorite part of the DS online. I can get in to a game and people will actually play instead of talking. If you want to talk thats what Forums and Chat rooms are for and I encourage you to use them.
When I go online to play a game I want to play a game. I use to be big into Counter Strike back in the day. I enjoy the game and how the teams work. Why I got out? I got tired of everyone claiming everyone else was cheating and then all the talk became terrible. Then voice chat came and it got worse.
Then in PSO all I wanted was to get a group and kill things with the group. Sometime it worked out but sometime people just sat there and talk. Which was annoying and sort of hard with the GCN controller.
Now with my friends sure, I love to exchange strategy while playing. Other people its way to much a crab shoot going more and more to the bad side.
Though I would like to be able to invite people after a game to talk but I could live without that.
See that is why voice is important, if a company ever wants to release a game with alot of strategy for Wii, then you would require voice to communicate. I personally think voice communication should be optional.
Post by: Adrock on February 02, 2007, 03:07:42 PM
Quote
DeadlyD wrote:
whats that got to do with nintendo kids saying "online gaimg sucks, i demand nintendo dont do it" attitude?
It doesn't. That's just my opinion on online games... unrelated to the line I quoted from you hence why it's in its own separate line... Jeez, chill...
Quote
Ian Sane wrote:
Online gaming is not that new of concept. Other consoles have done it and it's been done on PCs for years. Nintendo is behind. They should be using the experience of other companies to their advantage. But instead they're doing it their way even though it isn't needed. They're doing something weird for no reason. I just wish that in situations where Nintendo was the follower they just did things as people expect instead of always being different.
We don't want to use friend codes. Somehow online gaming in it's numerous forms has not required this so quit making everything screwy.
I agree with that completely. I'm sure there are ways to improve upon what the competition (namely MS) has done with online gaming, but Nintendo sure as hell hasn't improved a thing with their friend code system. With Nintendo parading their philiosophy of simpler games and ease of use, I wonder why they'd settle for such an asinine online structure.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 02, 2007, 03:14:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Give me co-op BWii NOW
Hell yes.
I'd buy it.
Post by: Kairon on February 02, 2007, 04:36:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Though there are a few games I like online because it just makes to much sense. (Pokemon MMORPG I'm looking at you.)
yes, Yes, YES. I have not played a Pokemon game since Yellow was released, and this is STILL the game that would make me cream my pants.
GOD. When will this DIE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Can't you all see how much ABUSE will happen within POKEMON MMOS? Can't you see the INNUMERABLE DIFFICULTIES, the INNUMERABLE reasons why this is a BAD idea? AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Oh, btw, about 1.4 million Wiis have gone online out of 3+ million sold. That's a lot, so there's no question that SOME online functionality is in demand. However, not even all those may be able to connect consistently. Heck, I haven't been able to connect consistently at all... only whenever I go home from the dorms, too many ports blocked.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Hocotate on February 02, 2007, 05:26:52 PM
Post by: denjet78 on February 02, 2007, 05:29:09 PM
But I do understand Nintendo's online structure. They're trying to make it as safe and streamlined as possible for the user. A lot of people here seem to think it's overly complicated but really, it's anything but. You're not having to waste time trying to figure out how to get the network to work. You just exchange friend codes and enter them into your game and you can play together. There's no hunting and searching. Waisting time on all the fluff like creating a profile or having to put up with people chatting online endlessly when all you want to do is play. It's stripping all the excess off and leaving just the pure "online" gaming experience.
Online gaming isn't about bragging to everyone about how many times you killed that "noob" or listening to 12 year olds swear over voice chat just because they can. It's about playing the games, or else it should be.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 02, 2007, 06:51:14 PM
Post by: Kairon on February 02, 2007, 08:04:43 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on February 02, 2007, 08:38:12 PM
Post by: denjet78 on February 02, 2007, 10:05:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Yes but with predefined phrases they don't have to worry about molesters so they can make it a full MMO.
People will still find a way.
I have... a... Peter. Would you... like to play... with... it...?
It's so hilarious making the speech synthesizer software in Windows swear. :p
Post by: KDR_11k on February 02, 2007, 11:37:30 PM
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2007, 05:37:14 AM
Post by: segagamer12 on February 03, 2007, 05:45:50 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 03, 2007, 05:54:29 AM
No but there are no games suitable for kids on the whole damn platform.
Post by: wandering on February 03, 2007, 05:59:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Maverick
Does XBox Live have some sort of child molestation problem that I'm not aware of?
http://gamepolitics.livejournal.com/171996.html
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2007, 06:01:57 AM
I also think you're underestimating the age of a lot of Nintendo gamers. It's not like only eight year olds like Pokemon.
Edit: wandering, I was really unaware that had happened at all. However I don't think that this one isolated incident suggests there's a fundamental problem with the way online gaming is approached. People just need to take responsibility for their own actions, and make sure their children know the dangers and are responsible enough to protect them. I've read someone on here say that "it doesn't matter what parents SHOULD do..." but yes, it does. It is not Nintendo's responsibility to protect children, it is their parents', and Nintendo should not sacrifice a good product for the sake of "Nannying" people. If they choose to do that, it is of course their right as a company, but it comes at the price of an improved product and more customers.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 03, 2007, 06:12:54 AM
Still, friend codes aren't a perfect solution, as there are colossal lists of friend code swap threads all over the internet where any pedophile could easily add kids to his list.
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2007, 06:20:04 AM
Edit: Changed "only" to "best" as I didn't want to come off as some sort of dogmatic prick. :-P
Post by: Ceric on February 03, 2007, 06:28:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Does XBox Live have some sort of child molestation problem that I'm not aware of?
No but there are no games suitable for kids on the whole damn platform.
You can see that lately Microsoft has been trying to get some Children oriented games. Trying to broaden there general appeal.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 03, 2007, 06:28:24 AM
Responsibility is unavoidable in society. If parents aren't responsibile, then Nintendo will take away control to protect themselves.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 03, 2007, 06:32:13 AM
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2007, 06:33:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Better to be a dogmatic prick than a pragmatic d*ck.
Sig GET!
Post by: Pittbboi on February 03, 2007, 06:35:29 AM
Quote
GOD. When will this DIE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Can't you all see how much ABUSE will happen within POKEMON MMOS? Can't you see the INNUMERABLE DIFFICULTIES, the INNUMERABLE reasons why this is a BAD idea? AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
You always respond this way, but you never list what those reasons are.
I really don't see how the bad outweighs the good. Pokemon is all about community, collecting, trading, battling, tournaments, traveling to gyms and collecting badges. Different servers can stand for the different leagues. Seriously, this game makes way too much sense not to happen at some point. Or at least Nintendo should give us a console Pokemon RPG that they take a lot more seriously than Pokemon XD--THAT game is ew. It seems like Nintendo won't make this game because of the minority that may abuse it.
Quote
Nintendo's online system is going to be simpler than the others, there's no way to get around that. If Nintendo were to try to build a Live type online network it would cost them several times more than it cost MS to build and even maintain. Why? Because MS has internal divisions and corporations that they can tap to build and maintain the system for them. Nintendo simply cannot compete with the same online experience as Sony and MS. They simply couldn't afford it. They shouldn't be forced to loose money just to make you happy. If Sony and MS want to do that, that's their prerogative, but you can't blame Nintendo for not wanting to waste money. They're not a not-for-profit after all.
Wanting Nintendo to do away with friend codes doesn't necessarily mean that we want them to start competing with Xbox Live. Nintendo may not be able to compete with Microsoft's online service, but that should not stop Nintendo from providing the most competent online service that they can. And friend codes are a hindrance, there's just no getting around that. There's also no getting around the fact that developers don't like it. Squeenix doesn't like it and is in talks with Nintendo to come up with ways to bypass it. That tells me that developers who bash it aren't just looking for excuses to not give their Wii games online features; Nintendo's online infrastructure really is hindering their online visions for their own games. I understand that Nintendo wants to protect the naive dummies [children] who make their way onto the internet, but Nintendo's current approach is seriously throwing a wrench into them ever having a successful online infrastructure (something that they could have without competing with Xbox Live).
Nintendo's going to have to learn that if they really want the Wii to be the everyone console they're going to have to open it up to everyone, and not cripple it just because there's a minority out there who may abuse it.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 03, 2007, 06:49:35 AM
Problem is every time they don't do that people sue them over something. Where do you think that "health warning" at bootup comes from? People sue Nintendo for the most idiotic reasons (I think they even got sued over GTA!). I have no idea why those idiots never sue Sony or MS, perhaps because their brains are too defective to comprehend the idea that Nintendo doesn't make every single videogame out there.
Still, friend codes aren't a perfect solution, as there are colossal lists of friend code swap threads all over the internet where any pedophile could easily add kids to his list.
Yes but there are limits to how much you can prevent user errors. You can be damn sure Nintendo will get sued over it anyway and I wish we still had Yamauchi so a few more of the world's idiots would meet the bumper of a car.
The best solution to child molestation via the internet is to educate children on the dangers of communicating with strangers and preparing them to avoid such dangerous situations. If a child is not old enough to understand the dangers, then he or she should not be on the internet, period. This goes for game consoles as well as the WWW.
Yes but putting responsibility on the user's shoulders has never done well with the press. Unfortunately the parents who are dumb enough to think that keeping a kid away from harm is a substitute for teaching it how to avoid harm are also the parents who are the least likely to notice if their kid gets abused by a paedo.
Whenever someone invents something foolproof the universe invents a better fool.
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 08:05:59 AM
It may be a sales decision: Will the average trying-to-be conscientious parent buy their child the XBox 360 after stories of all the immature language on that network that you can't filter out, (12 year old yelling at his mom for chocolate milk overhe4ard through XBL voice chat) or would they buy the Wii, which in addition to a plethora of other features, also provides them a comforting, almost impenetrably safe barrier where the child can only converse or listen to players that they've met in real life?
If that's the case, we may be going about it completely wrong. Hardcore gamers will never be fully satisfied with Nintendo's online because Nintendo's online functionality was SIMPLY not made with them in mind. It's a pure not-compete decision on Nintendo's part, instead gearing their online to a different market and different concerns.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Plugabugz on February 03, 2007, 08:16:29 AM
Post by: jasonditz on February 03, 2007, 08:33:27 AM
I don't want to go online to play basketball and discover that the guy I'm playing against is using the "spam pause when you're shooting foul shots" exploit.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 03, 2007, 08:41:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
I'm not opposed to keeping online centered around circles of friends... I despised the online experience on the DC and even more on the PS2 largely because most people are asses. I just wish they'd let us use usernames instead of hard-to-remember friend codes. They let us link our online shopping account to our Nintendo.com account, why not let us use that for buddy lists as well?
I don't want to go online to play basketball and discover that the guy I'm playing against is using the "spam pause when you're shooting foul shots" exploit.
I think in discussions like this we need to distance ourselves from what we "want" to what is best. Having friend codes, and elminating voice chat (or having it be limited) hampers what kinds of online games we can have. Personally if I was to compromise I would be ok with one friend code being linked to your Wii, but having multiple ones for games is flat out ridiculous. Oh well, I hope Nintendo gets over their current trend of limiting the Wii online experience or it could potentially harm them. It is sad to see a system with such revolutionary controls be so limited in the multiplayer experience, there could be some truly unique online games.
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 03, 2007, 10:41:44 AM
Even though I dont like the idea of friend codes either, if that's what it takes to get free online, then so be it.
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 03, 2007, 10:50:03 AM
I could excuse a small (very minimal) amount of advertising with Nintendo's online service in order to pay for it, but friend codes are just unnecessary road blocks. I don't need voice/video chat or anything like that, but I would really like it if Nintendo put a little more effort into their online plan. Since the service is free, I do appreciate any effort they make, but the current setup is probably hurting them in the eyes of Xbox/PlayStation owners. Not their target audience, I know, but a sale is a sale.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 03, 2007, 11:20:26 AM
Quote
It may be a sales decision: Will the average trying-to-be conscientious parent buy their child the XBox 360 after stories of all the immature language on that network that you can't filter out, (12 year old yelling at his mom for chocolate milk overhe4ard through XBL voice chat) or would they buy the Wii, which in addition to a plethora of other features, also provides them a comforting, almost impenetrably safe barrier where the child can only converse or listen to players that they've met in real life?
But on the flip side, if it's true that Nintendo's online infrastructure is turning off developers (which seems to be the case), and that mentality spreads, then it really won't matter how safe friend codes make Nintendo's online. Responsible parents care about the safety of their children, yes, but they also care about value. Xbox Live, while not taking extreme safety measures, may be considered the more valuable service when Nintendo's online service is safe, but has nothing of real worth to play on it as a result.
And besides, what's to stop people they "know" from using inappropriate language online?
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Hardcore gamers will never be fully satisfied with Nintendo's online because Nintendo's online functionality was SIMPLY not made with them in mind.
And this is a perfect example of what "hardcore" gamers feared despite people telling them to shut up and stop being so pessimistic. If this is true then it completely contradicts Nintendo's claims of the Wii being the everyone console. They don't have to make Xbox Live, but making their online service so rigid and focused on the non-gamer, kid safe crowd (who aren't really interested in online anyway. Online is still mostly "gamer" territory) is keeping them from providing even a basic, but competent service.
Post by: Luigi Dude on February 03, 2007, 11:22:30 AM
More people went online with Nintendo's Wifi for the DS in it's first year, then went online with Xbox Live for the Xbox in it's first year. The reason is simple, people dont want to have to pay for online gaming.
As long as it's free, that's all people are going to care about. So if friend codes are going to only anger the 5% of the videogame public that actually cares about playing games online, then I dont see Nintendo changing there plans anytime soon. And with most people not caring about online anyway, Nintendo doesn't really have a reason to change right now either.
Post by: Crimm on February 03, 2007, 11:24:12 AM
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Originally posted by: Luigi Dude
If Nintendo was charging money like Xbox Live then all these complants would be valid, but they're not. I dont see a reason to complain this much when we're getting online for FREE. When somethings free, people can't really complain about the quality since it's not costing anyone a thing.
Even though I dont like the idea of friend codes either, if that's what it takes to get free online, then so be it.
That's bull crap. They are charging, it's part of that $49.99 you play for your games. They aren't giving us online as a gift, they're doing it as a feature of the game. They're doing it to increase the relative value of the title, and making us more willing to play for it. Ergo, we are paying for online, just not for a subscription.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 03, 2007, 11:27:30 AM
Post by: segagamer12 on February 03, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 11:58:45 AM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Hardcore gamers will never be fully satisfied with Nintendo's online because Nintendo's online functionality was SIMPLY not made with them in mind.
And this is a perfect example of what "hardcore" gamers feared despite people telling them to shut up and stop being so pessimistic. If this is true then it completely contradicts Nintendo's claims of the Wii being the everyone console. They don't have to make Xbox Live, but making their online service so rigid and focused on the non-gamer, kid safe crowd (who aren't really interested in online anyway. Online is still mostly "gamer" territory) is keeping them from providing even a basic, but competent service.
I don't recall that at all. Hardcore gamers worried about epic games, not epic online. There was NEVER a glimmer of hope to me that Nintendo would EVER offer a hardcore online service on the level of even PSN.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Maverick on February 03, 2007, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on February 03, 2007, 12:23:25 PM
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I don't recall that at all. Hardcore gamers worried about epic games, not epic online. There was NEVER a glimmer of hope to me that Nintendo would EVER offer a hardcore online service on the level of even PSN.
Oh, I wasn't just talking about online with this. The general fear the "hardcore gamer" (ick, I hate this label. I'm not a hardcore gamer at all and I still had this fear because I'm definitely not a non-gamer) had was that in their earnestness to appeal to the non-gamer in general, Nintendo was going to slowly but surely neglect the gamer crowd. Nintendo shucking the gamer with their online system is but one facet of this. Last gen was the time for testing online gaming. But this gen online gaming in all of its forms is becoming more and more popular. Gamers want it. Nintendo gamers want it. Nintendo neglecting the growing popularity of, and demand for, quality online gaming just to protect the dumb little kiddies (who aren't really into online at this point, anyway) and their fragile little minds is an example of part of that fear being realized.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 01:45:05 PM
All these people complaining and whining about stuff that they don't even need to play games online! You don't need all of the features of Live to play games online. All you need is a way to connect 2 or more players and then P-L-A-Y! What is this online experience that everyone wants that doesn't even involve games? You want voice chat, you want IM, you want to be able to send pictures and video back and forth. Um... do you intend to actually use this network for what it was intended for EVER?
Whine whine whine whine whine!
I hate online because of all the crap that goes along with it. Having to deal with morons all day long, random retards. Being yelled at by people because I'm a "noob" or some other such garbage. Treated like crap by more experienced players because I can never seem to find anyone on my level. You know, people who just want to play games to have fun, not to vicariously lust over slaughtering your friends digitally.
Nintendo's Friend Codes do away with all that extraneous crap. I don't care if "hardcore" (whatever that means) gamers think they're just to protect the "KIDDDYZ" because they're not. They clean the whole situation up. You want to play with someone, you give them your friend code and they give you theirs. And then... now guess what? I know this is going to scare some of you because I didn't even know you could do this either but...
YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME!
Developers are pissed off because they can't use all the other extra features to distract from the fact that most online games blow. If you didn't have the ability to talk smack to your buddies most people who do play online games currently, wouldn't. The whole situation has just gotten way out of hand.
As soon as someone can actually prove that Nintendo's online strategy is hurting online gaming (See that key word there: "GAMING". Not "extra crap that I can do just becausing", but gaming.) then you'll actually have a point. But you won't because you can't. Developers can still make all the same games that they do for other platforms no matter how much they whine and insist that they can't. Again, you're just connecting player "A" to player "B". What's the problem? And yes you can even have voice chat. If Nintendo did it on the DS they can sure as hell do it on the Wii. They're just cutting through all the extra muck and getting right to the heart of the matter: Playing games.
Sometimes I wish the internet had never been invented...
Post by: Pittbboi on February 03, 2007, 01:55:44 PM
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All these people complaining and whining about stuff that they don't even need to play games online! You don't need all of the features of Live to play games online.
It seems like you missed out on the last page of this thread. Nobody wants Xbox Live. We want an online service that works and isn't going to turn of developers for any reason. You may have a strict criteria for what makes an enjoyable online gaming experience, but not everyone does. And frankly, if Mortal Kombat doesn't have online features for the Wii version (and the Wii version only), and Square-Enix is having problems realizing any of their online visions due to Nintendo's rigid restrictions, I think that's valid cause for worry for the Wii's online offerings, and desire to complain.
You can hate online gaming all you want, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
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As soon as someone can actually prove that Nintendo's online strategy is hurting online gaming (See that key word there: "GAMING". Not "extra crap that I can do just becausing", but gaming.) then you'll actually have a point.
*cough* http://www.joystiq.com/2007/02/01/square-enix-blames-wii-friend-codes-for-lack-of-ffxi/ *cough*
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 03, 2007, 02:05:23 PM
Wii Sports online? HELL yeah! Excite Truck? Ditto. Animal Crossing where you don't have to worry about connecting and telling people you're going to be on every time you want to visit a friend's town? Online MK battle games? Online SSBB? Red Steel 2 with online swordfighting?
You don't get these types of experiences online from other franchises: generic racers and shooters just don't pack the potential punch that Nintendo's franchises can if they go online.
Post by: Crimm on February 03, 2007, 02:07:43 PM
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 02:09:21 PM
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Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
All these people complaining and whining about stuff that they don't even need to play games online! You don't need all of the features of Live to play games online.
It seems like you missed out on the last page of this thread. Nobody wants Xbox Live. We want an online service that works and isn't going to turn of developers for any reason. You may have a strict criteria for what makes an enjoyable online gaming experience, but not everyone does. And frankly, if Mortal Kombat doesn't have online features for the Wii version (and the Wii version only), and Square-Enix is having problems realizing any of their online visions due to Nintendo's rigid restrictions, I think that's valid cause for worry for the Wii's online offerings, and desire to complain.
You can hate online gaming all you want, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to.Quote
As soon as someone can actually prove that Nintendo's online strategy is hurting online gaming (See that key word there: "GAMING". Not "extra crap that I can do just becausing", but gaming.) then you'll actually have a point.
*cough* http://www.joystiq.com/2007/02/01/square-enix-blames-wii-friend-codes-for-lack-of-ffxi/ *cough*
Actually, I read all of it and I only saw whining because you have to use a friend code. That's it. Just because you have to enter a number. That's ALL anyone really came up with to attack Nintendo's online policy.
As for MMOs that is a sticky point. They're not very popular though. FFXI's sales numbers are beyond pitiful. But Nintendo is going to have to find a way around it. I think that's the only genre of online game that the whole friend code system borks. If you want to complain about that then that's your prerogative and I actually completely agree with you.
Funny that it took this long for someone to introduce a REAL problem with Nintendo's online network.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 03, 2007, 02:24:15 PM
Post by: Shecky on February 03, 2007, 02:56:47 PM
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Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I hate to say it, but I'm going to have to agree with Pittboii, it is inexcusable if Nintendo is chasing away would be third parties by having such a lame online system. Nintendo needs to open up and allow companies full access to the online feature and try not to limit it so much with things like friend codes.
Ugh, Posts:0 is right....
You do realize that developers are asking for "Xbox Live" for Nintendo right? They're complaining that Nintendo is making it difficult for them to tie into the unified community Nintendo's established (have they yet?) They want to know how to tie in achievements, rankings, ladders, friends.... However Nintendo is not providing them with that info, hence no online for you.
Companies have full access to the libraries necessary to communicate online [Source: Elebits]. "Full access to the online feature" is "Where's our Nintendo Live, and why don't we have the libraries to interface to it?"
If Xbox Live is the Gold Standard and companies will settle for nothing less, then forget online gaming on the Wii. Nintendo doesn't have the resources in terms of brains and network expertise to pull it off any time soon. Rather you should be complaining that companies get their act together and maybe work on platform independent hubs, for their own companies or a collaboration of them.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 03:02:51 PM
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Originally posted by: Shecky
If Xbox Live is the Gold Standard and companies will settle for nothing less, then forget online gaming on the Wii. Nintendo doesn't have the resources in terms of brains and network expertise to pull it off any time soon. Rather you should be complaining that companies get their act together and maybe work on platform independent hubs, for their own companies or a collaboration of them.
Oh my god...
SOMEONE ACTUALLY GETS IT!
Thank you for existing! Just... thank you!
Post by: Blue Plant on February 03, 2007, 03:12:02 PM
On-screen typing is for dinosaurs. On-screen pointer typing is for tiny lizards.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 03:24:12 PM
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Originally posted by: Blue Plant
We'll still need keyboard compatibility for these alleged MMORPGs. Let's all bitch about that first. Okay? Okay? Okay.
Three letters: U S B
Or they could make it wireless. It could function on one of the controller frequencies.
They could also make a wireless mic/headset. Isn't Nintendo supposed to be working on something like that for the DS? I don't think it's wireless though but if they really wanted it to be I'm sure they could do it.
Someone came out with a creepy controller/keyboard nightmare like thing for PSO on the GC. I'm sure they could make something just as terrifying for the Wii. Just imagine, a motion sensitive... keyboard?
Post by: Blue Plant on February 03, 2007, 03:34:50 PM
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Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: Blue Plant
We'll still need keyboard compatibility for these alleged MMORPGs. Let's all bitch about that first. Okay? Okay? Okay.
Three letters: U S B
Yes, I know, but they still need to send us an update for a keyboard to actually be recognized.
I think people should really stop nagging so much about what we're not getting (and not paying for!). The only thing I'm willing to agree on is they shouldn't hide online details from third parties. But I damn well know that things are/will be more open than if Yamauchi were still in power.
Nintendo just needs time to build up an online community. Microsoft had how many years to get Live up to its current state? (Why does it sound like this argument is made over and over and just falls on deaf ears each time?)
Maybe a nice cash incentive would get Nintendo to hurry it up. How's $49.99 a year sound?
Post by: Nephilim on February 03, 2007, 03:46:33 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 03, 2007, 03:53:38 PM
I agree that XBOX Live set the standards way too high for developers to pursue, so now we get fans that want Nintendo to emulate that when its clear Nintendo has other ideas.
Like I mentioned before, give Nintendo time. The system was JUST released, and the system already uses minor online components, which is more than what the PS2 and XBOX did in their first year.
I agree that they need to find a better friends system, but outside that people are demanding too much. Yes, I want as many online games as possible but I sure will not throw a fit when Nintendo can't fully handle them.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 03:58:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Blue PlantQuote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: Blue Plant
We'll still need keyboard compatibility for these alleged MMORPGs. Let's all bitch about that first. Okay? Okay? Okay.
Three letters: U S B
Yes, I know, but they still need to send us an update for a keyboard to actually be recognized.
I think people should really stop nagging so much about what we're not getting (and not paying for!). The only thing I'm willing to agree on is they shouldn't hide online details from third parties. But I damn well know that things are/will be more open than if Yamauchi were still in power.
Nintendo just needs time to build up an online community. Microsoft had how many years to get Live up to its current state? (Why does it sound like this argument is made over and over and just falls on deaf ears each time?)
Maybe a nice cash incentive would get Nintendo to hurry it up. How's $49.99 a year sound?
The update could come on a disk or be downloaded when you first boot up a game that uses it. That's not a big issue. Nintendo doesn't even have to have anything to do with it. The developer just needs to know how to be able to access the USB ports. Nintendo may or may not be keeping that information to themselves though. This is the first time the topic has ever come up as far as I'm aware.
Nintendo's online network is free and we all know how notorious they are when it comes to making money. The fact that they're not charging at all means one of two things: They've lost their collective minds or they've figured out a way how to get it to work without having to lose any money in the process. Sony's probably losing a fortune just trying to play catch-up with MS and MS charges for their network. Well if you want to actually play games they do. Nintendo seems to be the only company that's been able to hit the internet sweet spot.
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 03, 2007, 04:33:12 PM
Each person has an an account tied to their system. It might be number (like current Wii Numbers) or it might be a user name of their choosing. If I want to play with my friend, I just add him to my friends list. If he wants to do the same he can, but he doesn't have to. Everyone has the option to show their online status to people on their friends list. When I see that a friend is online, I can send a request asking them to play a game. During gameplay, if I find an opponent that I like to play against, I can add him/her to my list to play against later. If a parent is concerned about online play, they can use parental controls to only allow play and/or communication between approved friends.
* * *
After reading that, does anything really sound out of the question? Most of my suggestions deal only with how the friends list is maintained. I think that Nintendo's current network could allow all of the above, but their policy stands in the way.
I am not a hardcore online gamer. I owned an Xbox years ago with an Xbox Live subscription and ended up selling the system. I don't need the insults, elitism, or any of the other crap that comes with Xbox Live. Nintendo can create an online system that is as fun and simple as the Wii itself, they just need to think differently.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 04:45:38 PM
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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
My ideal Nintendo online system:
Each person has an an account tied to their system. It might be number (like current Wii Numbers) or it might be a user name of their choosing. If I want to play with my friend, I just add him to my friends list. If he wants to do the same he can, but he doesn't have to. Everyone has the option to show their online status to people on their friends list. When I see that a friend is online, I can send a request asking them to play a game. During gameplay, if I find an opponent that I like to play against, I can add him/her to my list to play against later. If a parent is concerned about online play, they can use parental controls to only allow play and/or communication between approved friends.
That sounds a lot like what they did for MP:H. You could add random online players to your rival list and then play against them again later. You just couldn't chat with them or really get into any kind of contact with them outside of the game. I think that would be a good system for Wii, even if they kept the anonymous rival system. I don't see an issue with that at all. The only thing on that list that Nintendo isn't already doing is allowing you to see your friends when they're online and I don't think that would be really hard to fix.
Post by: Blue Plant on February 03, 2007, 04:49:38 PM
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Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
I am not a hardcore online gamer. I owned an Xbox years ago with an Xbox Live subscription and ended up selling the system. I don't need the insults, elitism, or any of the other crap that comes with Xbox Live.
I see what you mean... (Warning to minors: Very heavy language and typical fool behavior.)
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 05:09:52 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: MarioAllStar
My ideal Nintendo online system:
Each person has an an account tied to their system. It might be number (like current Wii Numbers) or it might be a user name of their choosing. If I want to play with my friend, I just add him to my friends list. If he wants to do the same he can, but he doesn't have to. Everyone has the option to show their online status to people on their friends list. When I see that a friend is online, I can send a request asking them to play a game. During gameplay, if I find an opponent that I like to play against, I can add him/her to my list to play against later. If a parent is concerned about online play, they can use parental controls to only allow play and/or communication between approved friends.
That sounds a lot like what they did for MP:H. You could add random online players to your rival list and then play against them again later. You just couldn't chat with them or really get into any kind of contact with them outside of the game. I think that would be a good system for Wii, even if they kept the anonymous rival system. I don't see an issue with that at all. The only thing on that list that Nintendo isn't already doing is allowing you to see your friends when they're online and I don't think that would be really hard to fix.
I agree. I don't see anything wrong with that solution. Nintendo needs to do whatever they need to do to allow for the most versatile system they can within the constraints of friend codes.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 03, 2007, 05:15:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SheckyQuote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I hate to say it, but I'm going to have to agree with Pittboii, it is inexcusable if Nintendo is chasing away would be third parties by having such a lame online system. Nintendo needs to open up and allow companies full access to the online feature and try not to limit it so much with things like friend codes.
Ugh, Posts:0 is right....
You do realize that developers are asking for "Xbox Live" for Nintendo right? They're complaining that Nintendo is making it difficult for them to tie into the unified community Nintendo's established (have they yet?) They want to know how to tie in achievements, rankings, ladders, friends.... However Nintendo is not providing them with that info, hence no online for you.
Companies have full access to the libraries necessary to communicate online [Source: Elebits]. "Full access to the online feature" is "Where's our Nintendo Live, and why don't we have the libraries to interface to it?"
If Xbox Live is the Gold Standard and companies will settle for nothing less, then forget online gaming on the Wii. Nintendo doesn't have the resources in terms of brains and network expertise to pull it off any time soon. Rather you should be complaining that companies get their act together and maybe work on platform independent hubs, for their own companies or a collaboration of them.
I don't like the friend codes and wish they would be eliminated, but I'm willing to bend a bit, not to the point though of each game having one. My main problem with Nintendo isn't solely because of their online system, but that it seems from this they are trying to hoard all the online information for themselves, that to me is a big problem if it is true. If the publishers are only concerned about the things you mentioned, then I can give Nintendo SOME slack, but if it is more than that, such as not sharing how to get their games online, that is inexcusable.
Post by: IceCold on February 03, 2007, 05:19:07 PM
QuoteI agree. Metroid Hunters online was exactly how it should be; extra stuff like voice chat with people on your friend list, but also the ability to just play anyone randomly, plus the Rivals feature.
That sounds a lot like what they did for MP:H. You could add random online players to your rival list and then play against them again later. You just couldn't chat with them or really get into any kind of contact with them outside of the game. I think that would be a good system for Wii, even if they kept the anonymous rival system. I don't see an issue with that at all. The only thing on that list that Nintendo isn't already doing is allowing you to see your friends when they're online and I don't think that would be really hard to fix.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 05:30:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
I don't like the friend codes and wish they would be eliminated, but I'm willing to bend a bit, not to the point though of each game having one. My main problem with Nintendo isn't solely because of their online system, but that it seems from this they are trying to hoard all the online information for themselves, that to me is a big problem if it is true. If the publishers are only concerned about the things you mentioned, then I can give Nintendo SOME slack, but if it is more than that, such as not sharing how to get their games online, that is inexcusable.
A different code for each game is a bit ridiculous. I can see it happening with Pokemon though simply because it's going to be able to interact with the DS titles. They may simply not be able to interact any other way.
I don't think Nintendo is hording their online information. As has been pointed out, Elebits is online in Japan. I don't know if it is here in the US. I haven't kept very good tabs on it because I don't even have a Wii yet. *sigh* Anyway, Konami has the libraries necessary to get online and they don't have the best relationship with Nintendo as it is. The information is out there. Developers simply aren't using it. The question now is, why aren't they?
It was basically the same situation with the GC. Nintendo made the libraries available but no one used them. Why?
Post by: Pittbboi on February 03, 2007, 06:04:14 PM
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Like I mentioned before, give Nintendo time. The system was JUST released, and the system already uses minor online components, which is more than what the PS2 and XBOX did in their first year.
I'm sorry, but I can't give Nintendo that slack. If this were last year and they were testing online out with the cube then it would be understandable. But this is new gen, and online isn't new. Nintendo should have learned from the mistakes of others.
Quote
I agree that XBOX Live set the standards way too high for developers to pursue, so now we get fans that want Nintendo to emulate that when its clear Nintendo has other ideas.
What ideas does Nintendo have? Because they're not giving any indication that they have ideas. Just ways of cutting cost.
I'm sorry, but all of you sound like you're coming up with bogus reasons for why Nintendo shouldn't do things, and that makes you inherently wrong. The main beef is with the friend code system, and the only way you guys can justify it is by comparing it to Xbox live. That's not fair at all. Nintendo could provide a much better online system if they just did away with friend codes. They don't have to compete with Xbox Live.
Xbox Live isn't the gold standard. They're just an example of online done right. There are many other ways of doing it without charging.
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 06:12:45 PM
The REAL problem with Nintendo's online is not friend codes (assuming the single friendcode per system solution), but the paucity of news suggesting the readiness of the network or third party involvement.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 03, 2007, 06:17:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I agree. I don't see anything wrong with that solution. Nintendo needs to do whatever they need to do to allow for the most versatile system they can within the constraints of friend codes.
But why does that constraint need to be there? Like I have stated time and time again, Nintendo just needs to make online play part of their parental controls. Parents can restrict the experience for kids (like no in-game communication), and the rest of us can have a better online system. One big barrier is just the fact that both people have to add each other before playing together. Why can't a friend just say, "This is my Wii Number, invite me to a game of Smash Bros. later"? That would make things so much easier.
Oh, I would like to add to my ideal Nintendo online setup by saying people should be able to choose a Wii to associate with their number/name. That is, I should not have to manually set Miis to each person on my friend list--a person should be able to choose their own Mii avatar.
Post by: segagamer12 on February 03, 2007, 06:28:19 PM
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 06:54:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MarioAllStarQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I agree. I don't see anything wrong with that solution. Nintendo needs to do whatever they need to do to allow for the most versatile system they can within the constraints of friend codes.
But why does that constraint need to be there? Like I have stated time and time again, Nintendo just needs to make online play part of their parental controls. Parents can restrict the experience for kids (like no in-game communication), and the rest of us can have a better online system. One big barrier is just the fact that both people have to add each other before playing together. Why can't a friend just say, "This is my Wii Number, invite me to a game of Smash Bros. later"? That would make things so much easier.
Oh, I would like to add to my ideal Nintendo online setup by saying people should be able to choose a Wii to associate with their number/name. That is, I should not have to manually set Miis to each person on my friend list--a person should be able to choose their own Mii avatar.
I like your ideas. Like before, I said that Nintendo should compare their friend codes to phone numbers, and use that comparison to improve their system.
For example, you should be able to opt in when someone else has your wii code and tries to contact you. You should be able to "pick up" even if you don't know their phone number! If one person has 3 other people's wii codes and invites them all to a game and they all accept the invitation, then it'd be like a neat teleconferencing thing!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 03, 2007, 07:03:50 PM
So that leaves the Wii as their first real attempt at putting together a solid, feature filled online network, and it will take time to develop. It will take time, and more importantly MONEY to get it fully up and running, as it stands I think it is competent system if you exclude playing games online. In fact I've had more fun playing around with the Wii's online than I've ever had with Xbox Live, then again I don't have the online connection to play online games.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 07:07:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
I'm sorry, but all of you sound like you're coming up with bogus reasons for why Nintendo shouldn't do things, and that makes you inherently wrong. The main beef is with the friend code system, and the only way you guys can justify it is by comparing it to Xbox live. That's not fair at all. Nintendo could provide a much better online system if they just did away with friend codes. They don't have to compete with Xbox Live.
Xbox Live isn't the gold standard. They're just an example of online done right. There are many other ways of doing it without charging.
Bogus reasons? That's your opinion. The fact of the matter is that you're still comparing Nintendo's online network to Sony and MS and they will never measure up. You say it can't be justified by comparing it to Live but you're comparing it to Live in order to back up your claims that Nintendo's dropping the ball. So, which is it? You say Nintendo's network is bad. Compared to what? If there's nothing to compare it to it can neither be good nor bad. It simply is. Considering you think it's bad you must be comparing it to something you thing is better.
And true, Live isn't the gold standard. It isn't even online done right. It's online cluttered with extra features because they can't seem to figure out what else to do with it. So many people are whining about online but I almost NEVER hear anything in the way of complaints about the actual games. No, it's always about extra features that have squat to do with games.
Online right now is basically world-wide multiplayer and I really, REALLY don't understand how people can be so obscenely obsessed with it. When I see a real and honest to goodness reason for online, as in new and innovative types of play that cannot be done any other way, then I'll be a convert. Right now it is anything but. To be honest, I don't care if Wii goes online at all. I'd rather Nintendo spend their time and effort on creating new game ideas than waste it adding useless features. And yes, I see online as next to useless.
Besides, you're not talking about the games. Almost no one is talking about the games. They're talking about superfluous features that actually bring little to nothing to the game experience. Why are we arguing over features on a GAMES CONSOLE that have nothing to do with actually PLAYING THE GAMES? It's like the whole argument over the fact that the GC didn't come with a DVD player.
I've yet to see anyone acknowledge that fact.
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 07:12:29 PM
I WILL, however, defend their direction of online. Nintendo can't afford to be a me too in my eyes, it'd be a waste of time and money. Nintendo needs Animal Crossing online FAR MORE than it needs Metroid Prime 3 online in my opinion. Hardcore players may whine for voice chat, and more ways to blow each other up, but what's more important to Nintendo is making the experience more NEWBIE safe and friendly... though obviously, they still have some ways to go there as well.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 07:32:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I don't see any reason to "excuse" Nintendo. The market, nor consumers will care if service is lackluster. And if Nintendo chose to prioritize something else above online, then there's nothing wrong with them getting credit for their failures as well as their successes. They're a big company, they can take their licks just like they can take their praise.
I WILL, however, defend their direction of online. Nintendo can't afford to be a me too in my eyes, it'd be a waste of time and money. Nintendo needs Animal Crossing online FAR MORE than it needs Metroid Prime 3 online in my opinion. Hardcore players may whine for voice chat, and more ways to blow each other up, but what's more important to Nintendo is making the experience more NEWBIE safe and friendly... though obviously, they still have some ways to go there as well.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
I don't care if online on the Wii fails. It's already a failure in my eyes on the other consoles. Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.
I'd like to try Animal Crossing online though, but only with 4 users max allowed in any given town. If AC online was turned into an MMO it would completely suck. A big part of the experience is interacting with all the strange and colorful characters in the town. If the town was made up of nothing but other users... just imagine how crap that would be. But a 4 player game where just a couple of users can interact in a much more intimate environment. That would be an interesting game. It would be cool being able to play a Pokemon game like that too. You and a couple friends traveling across the world battling, training, getting to know each other. The problem is, in an MMO everyone is out for themselves. There's no real sense of connection with other users. Why else would PKing be such a huge problem in those types of games? There's no respect for other players when you're constantly told that they're the enemy.
Post by: Kairon on February 03, 2007, 07:53:18 PM
In my opinion, ansynchronous connections like Elebits or Spore and limited synchronous connections like Animal Crossing and PSO should be Nintendo's goals for the Wii, and nothing more ambitious than that. And all of that more non-gamer and casual and not uber hardcore gameplay at all. Competitive shooter deathmatch gameplay though? ... no thank you.
Oh GOD can you imagine Harvest Moon Crossing? Have other players visit your farm and help out with chores! /drool
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 08:12:07 PM
If you can't manage to make it to the farm that day, have someone else fill in for you. Keep the games seperate in that you still have your own world to deal with but allow outsiders the ability to interact and change things, to a point. It would be fantastic if you could invite friends over for your birthday. There are just so many little things that can be done without having to sacrifice the integrity of the gameplay just for the sake of throwing in online.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 03, 2007, 08:12:20 PM
YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME!
When I go online I don't do it to play with friends. My friends don't even have Wiis.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 08:22:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
You want to play with someone, you give them your friend code and they give you theirs. And then... now guess what? I know this is going to scare some of you because I didn't even know you could do this either but...
YOU PLAY THE DAMN GAME!
When I go online I don't do it to play with friends. My friends don't even have Wiis.
Wow you... really showed me.
...
...
*cough*
Post by: IceCold on February 03, 2007, 08:29:30 PM
Quote
Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.
Post by: denjet78 on February 03, 2007, 08:43:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
I think he was supposed to quote this..Quote
Right now it's a pointless feature. It does absolutely nothing for games. Argue if you want but I can already experience multiplayer in my living room and have been able to for decades.
Because... I have an opinion that doesn't line up with the rest of the sheeple? I'm sorry that I don't believe in online at all. That's my opinion, I'm allowed to have it. If you want to have a discussion about that, that's fine. Otherwise I really don't appreciate your implications. Besides, I'm not allowed to have a sense of humor? I realize that Wiis are extremely difficult to find. My previous comment was an, apparently failed, attempt at levity. You need to be able to find humor in any situation. If you can't, you're going to lead a very sad, very boring life.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 03, 2007, 09:44:08 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 03, 2007, 10:19:40 PM
Post by: Nephilim on February 04, 2007, 02:31:57 AM
Noticed DS is locked at about 20kb/s (20kb/s normal is barely enough speed for 1 on 1 fps pc games)
hope Wii has a higher speed, should show if they are planning games over 4 people (which isnt a simple game like tetris or bomberman)
Post by: segagamer12 on February 04, 2007, 05:42:31 AM
yes but what you thik is failure adn what the publsihers think is failure dont seam to macth up. as far as EVERYONE ELSE is concerned Xbox Live got it right. Nintendo NEEDs to have something along those lines, maybe not as good but better than what DS has and much better than what Wii has been getting.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 04, 2007, 05:50:49 AM
That would be fine by me, as far as I'm concerned. Just some basic functionality regarding tracking down people to play games with would be all I'd ever truly need.
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 04, 2007, 05:52:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78
If the town was made up of nothing but other users... just imagine how crap that would be. But a 4 player game where just a couple of users can interact in a much more intimate environment. That would be an interesting game. It would be cool being able to play a Pokemon game like that too. You and a couple friends traveling across the world battling, training, getting to know each other. The problem is, in an MMO everyone is out for themselves. There's no real sense of connection with other users.
That is the kind of online gaming I want, too. Of course, developers should be able to make an online competitive FPS if they want to, but I would love it if we saw more community-based games online.
I want the Wii itself to be a community-based system. That's why I think it is so important that we have the option to see when friends are online and invite them to a game. It is much more natural and fun to see a friend is playing the Wii and simply invite them to your Animal Crossing town than it is to open your gate, call them up, ask if they can play a game, tell them to get on Animal Crossing, and wait for them to enter your town. It might be a small difference, but I think with the current system friends have to jump through too many hoops to play together.
Edit: Smash_Brother sums it up nicely.
Post by: TerribleOne on February 04, 2007, 06:05:08 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on February 04, 2007, 07:53:16 AM
The method you're arguing here is extremely flawed. Nintendo shouldn't do online because, to you, it's pointless. Xbox Live is a failure, to you, because it's nothing but a cacophony of features that you don't care about.
Well, not to offend you, but you don't make up the whole of the gaming universe. These "pointless features" are growing in popularity and people want them. And I'm sorry, but Xbox Live is viewed as quite the success by not just gamers, but the whole of the gaming industry. You're taking your radical opinions on what online should be and applying them to the industry as a means of explaining that Nintendo is right in their lackluster approach to online, because online is something you don't personally care about. Denjet, and Kairon too, it's that exact same elitism that was the downfall of Nintendo with the N64. Nintendo ignored the signs of a growing and changing industry and stuck to what they wanted to do because, frankly, nothing outside of what they wanted to do made any sense to them. And, well, we all know how that turned out.
Look, I'm no big fan of online, either. I don't play PC games, I've never owned an Xbox or 360, and I only have two games for my PS2 and they're Square RPGs. My main consoles for the past 2 generations have been Nintendo-made, so technically that means I shouldn't even know what "online gaming" is. But I can still see the importance of Nintendo taking online seriously. Online is popular this gen, and it's only going to continue growing more popular. If Nintendo wants to remain relevant to gaming, online is something they're eventually going to have to take seriously. And, for the umpteenth time, this does not mean Nintendo needs to copy Xbox Live. Nintendo can't do everything, you guys are right about that much, but that should NOT stop them from providing the best they can. And I think it's pretty damn near unanimous that they aren't doing that with friend codes and a shoddy online structure. Nintendo may be new to online, but online sure as hell isn't new. Wii online, as it stands now, is crap even when you consider that it's Nintendo's first real try. Even developers have said that it doesn't look like Nintendo gave it any thought.
Oh, and restricting Wii Online to a community based system would severely limit the Wii to only those who lived in a community of Wii users. And that isn't me. I know 3 other people who have Wiis. I can imagine any online game being terribly limited if I had to rely on only three other people to be online and in the mood to play the game I wanted to play for a decent experience. I can understand Nintendo wanting to emphasize that type of connectivity to set it apart from the competition, but they need to also provide a way for me to get online at any time I want, and find people to play online with even when my friends may be online and playing other games. And, I'm sorry, but Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar company; they can provide that BASIC experiences that other companies have been providing for free for YEARS without having to dig deep in their pockets. For Nintendo to deny that connection with the WORLD is a main attraction of online demonstrates that they still haven't gotten rid of some of that "Nintendo is the best and does everything right and knows what's best for gaming" elitism that did them in two generations ago.
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 04, 2007, 08:20:48 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2007, 10:04:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiWell, not to offend you, but you don't make up the whole of the gaming universe.
When you talk about the gaming industry changing, I think it's more important to look at the XBox 360's demographics. Selling less than PS2, dead in the water in Japan and to a lesser extent Europe (the two most advanced markets in terms of a shift to casual/non gaming), tracking at more or less XBox 1 numbers...
I don't question that Nintendo's online infrastructure is lacking and that their friend codes require improvement, but I strenuously object to the idea that the industry is changing in the direction you think it is. People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.
Let's not forget that the number one online game being played today is probably some variation on the card game Hearts. And it's being played by middle aged women. Let's take a look at the men then: even with it's hardcore-High-Definition-male demographic, despite having original platforming-action content, despite having scoreboards and downloadable online games up the wazoo... one of the biggest sellers for XBLA was UNO.
Oh sure, we're getting BWii online and SSBB online and maybe if we're lucky even Red Steel 2. All typical hardcore stuff. But any serious hardcore tradtional gamer will always have a better choice than the Wii: the X360 or PS3 or PC. This is why the emphasis on what Nintendo can do DIFFERENT than what they can do similar, the emphasis on what they can do NEW instead of what they can do the same.
There's no question they can do it better. And there's no question that we'd all like to see that. But simply doing a better job will never truly satisfy anyone who can compare it to the X360. What's more important, with an eye towards the Wii's mission, the Wii's demographics, and today's online atmosphere, is to deliver online, free, low-stress high-community content.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
P.S. Oh, by the way, I agree that Nintendo needs a more robust infrastructure, including VOIP, and more flexible friend code methods. if Nintendo really wants to capture those non-game markets, they need VOIP on the Wii and an "opt out" safety strategy that's directly opposite of they're opt-in strategy. Women (and non-hardcore gamers) play online to socialize, i.e. TALK. This necessitates a revamping of the "friend code" system's double-key opt-in system.
Edit: Good discussion! Learning a lot through research and other stuff!
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 04, 2007, 10:20:53 AM
In that same vein, VOIP via a bluetooth headset would seal the deal for me. How could you pass up on that?
But yeah, online is the icing on the cake, not the necessity. I believe it's more important that the Wii be a crowd pleaser offline than a lone gamer's hideaway online, but something to make WiiConnect24 feel more like a networked community would definitely be welcome.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 04, 2007, 10:23:13 AM
Quote
People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.
None of that excuses Nintendo's current online structure, which isn't even capturing the market you say they're going for. All in all, you're saying Nintendo is trying to do a different online service to go after the non-gamer and stay away from current gaming trends because they can't compete. They're going after people who use online to share photos and be different. But how are they doing that with their current system? With Nintendo's current online gaming infrastructure, there's no indication that Nintendo has any focus in regards to games. Sure, there's a news and [crappy]weather channel, but for games where's this non-gamer focus?
And, if they just focus on the non-gamer, "the internet is 4 myspace!!" crowd then, once again, Nintendo's giving a big "F-You" to the gamer who wouldn't mind just having a service that works, and not all the bells and whistles Xbox Live provides. You know, the gamers who don't want to have to buy another system because the Wii version of a popular multi-platform game doesn't have the online features it has on every other system because Nintendo wants to be "different" (read: lazy) with their online.
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2007, 11:01:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
People are using online more and more, yes, but for what? For Myspace, for Youtube, for NewGrounds, for MapQuest, for Online "Look at my Photos" sharing.
None of that excuses Nintendo's current online structure, which isn't even capturing the market you say they're going for. All in all, you're saying Nintendo is trying to do a different online service to go after the non-gamer and stay away from current gaming trends because they can't compete. They're going after people who use online to share photos and be different. But how are they doing that with their current system? With Nintendo's current online gaming infrastructure, there's no indication that Nintendo has any focus in regards to games. Sure, there's a news and [crappy]weather channel, but for games where's this non-gamer focus?
And, if they just focus on the non-gamer, "the internet is 4 myspace!!" crowd then, once again, Nintendo's giving a big "F-You" to the gamer who wouldn't mind just having a service that works, and not all the bells and whistles Xbox Live provides. You know, the gamers who don't want to have to buy another system because the Wii version of a popular multi-platform game doesn't have the online features it has on every other system because Nintendo wants to be "different" (read: lazy) with their online.
I never say any of that Pittboi. I say Nintendo needs to drive online experiences such as Animal Crossing and non-gamer online experiences (such as XBLA's UNO) more than it needs "gamer" games. Community-centered experiences are more relevant to today's market than traditional generation X games.
I ALSO, if you READ my post, put forward reasons why Nintendo needs a more robust network, INCLUDING VOIP, and why Nintendo NEEDS to revamp their friend system if they want to be successful at continuing doing what their Wii has already started. But non-gamers are the reason, not hardcore gamers.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MarioAllStar on February 04, 2007, 11:07:30 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 04, 2007, 11:32:24 AM
The console manufacturer always paves the way in these cases. Luckily, I suspect MP3 will definitely have online play as they're keeping the multiplayer under wraps.
If MP3 gives us an online FPS experience, you'll see 3rd parties MUCH more willing to follow suit.
Post by: Kairon on February 04, 2007, 11:41:04 AM
It's sad and pathetic, but you know it's probably true.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 04, 2007, 12:02:53 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on February 05, 2007, 08:24:24 AM
So I honestly have no idea what I really want from online gaming, but I know that Nintendo's not providing it yet. It's heartening that the Wii's software is updatable, so I'm willing to wait and see.
Post by: segagamer12 on February 05, 2007, 09:08:09 AM
Now getting back to the discussion. So far the Wii online has been a disapointment thats for sure, but there is nothing to indicate that it wont get better. If Brawl can get the online right and if Nintendo can get 3rd parties on board then it will get better, but they NEED to get rid of the friend code systems alltogether. We ALREADY HAVE TO TARDE WII CODES for cryingout load. That should be all the exchange needed.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 05, 2007, 09:24:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PartyBear and realized I'd go freaking bonkers if I had to deal with that. I'd want the ability to go into "do not disturb" mode, but then I'd probably always stay in that mode, and it would remove most of the benefits.
Like I said, I want to see what game they're playing and be able to send them a text message which would be retrievable in the Home menu or something.
Nothing overt, just simple tools to get people to play together.
Post by: Maverick on February 05, 2007, 10:00:36 AM
Post by: Magik on February 05, 2007, 10:15:11 AM
Log on with a specific name, do a search, join a room, chat, and than straight to the game. Of course, there also needs to be the ability to communicate with the people you are playing online.
