Post by: couchmonkey on November 27, 2006, 05:37:54 AM
Square Enix said it will support everyone equally because it doesn't want one company with too much power. My opinion is that Square Enix is tired of Sony but it's equally afraid that Nintendo could take total control of the Japanese market. I'm guessing the "main" Final Fantasy series will be on something other than Wii, since the series has become known for graphics/movies.
Ubisoft intends to become the number 1 third-party publisher - by supporting Wii. It has tentatively announced seven more games for Jan-Mar 2007
Disney is opening a new development studio exclusively for Wii. Electronic Arts did the same thing, but I can't find any news stories about it, it just kind of came up in interviews earlier this year.
Take Two thinks Wii has great potential for sports games. These guys sound like they may be too late to the party, but considering their portfolio - Grand Theft Auto, Bully, etc. it's safe to say Nintendo has never been their main target for new games. Edit: February 6th - Manhunt 2 announced
Bandai Namco has 30 Wii titles in the works (thanks ProtoNY)
SNK Playmore plans to focus on Wii - says the other systems aren't appropriate for 2D games (indirect thanks to segagamer12).
Reggie has also said that third party support is higher for Wii at this point than it was for GameCube at the same point, but he was basing that on second-hand information from older employees. I couldn't find a reference for this, if anybody knows where to find the quote, feel free to add.
Edit: February 3rd: Konami announces a few Wii games, including DDR: Hottest Party and Dewey's Adventure.
Edit: February 8th: Activision plans to double it's Wii support.
Edit: March 3rd: Id says that a lot of companies have been requesting Wii tools from Id, and that it might release something on the system.
Edit: April 10: Sega has announced a Wii-exclusive Nights sequel, and Bloomberg claims that Electronic Arts and others are scrambling to release more Wii products after losing cash on the other new consoles.
Edit: April 12: Capcom shows RE4 remake and RE: Umbrella chronicles for Wii; Resident Evil 5 (for 360/PS3) is nowhere to be seen.
April 17: Jet Black Studios is formed by a group of former EA Canada employees.
June 18: Take Two is "completely focused" on creating a Wii and DS strategy
Post by: ProtoNY on November 27, 2006, 07:11:09 AM
And wasn't there just an article recently that Namco has a total of 40 games in development right now - with 30 of those being Wii titles?
Post by: couchmonkey on November 27, 2006, 07:58:13 AM
The Disney studio may not seem that important to a lot of people, but the point is to have the games. I remember when there were new games based on Disney movies coming to PSX every year but never to N64, and even though I knew they weren't top-tier or anything, I was still a bit jealous. Kids will care a lot.
Post by: Arbok on November 27, 2006, 01:10:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
The Disney studio may not seem that important to a lot of people, but the point is to have the games. I remember when there were new games based on Disney movies coming to PSX every year but never to N64, and even though I knew they weren't top-tier or anything, I was still a bit jealous. Kids will care a lot.
Quoted for truth. I recall one of the earlier games that tempted me the most to pick up a Playstation: The Lost World.
Really, most hardcore gamers will scoff at the movie-tie-in stuff, but to more casual consumers these are very important.
Post by: Ceric on November 27, 2006, 01:16:26 PM
Post by: IceCold on November 27, 2006, 04:16:55 PM
I wonder what Capcom and Konami are up to in regards to the Wii - they have been noticeably absent.
Post by: Hocotate on November 27, 2006, 05:31:20 PM
I predict we will see a large amount of anime games, Tatsujin, Tales of, and probably a few original IPs.Also it pleases me to see Ubisoft really giving full support. I also remember SNK stating that the Wii is going to be their most supported platform of the 3 consoles. This is great news for me because the main reason I bought a PS2 (JP ver) was to play their's and other's fighting games. If SNK makes the shift, and KOFXII is a Wii exclusive (or at least timed exclusive) that pretty much makes it the "fighting game system" and others will follow
Sammy.... and Capcom if they were still in the picture. Not to mention the Wii being "small dev team" friendly, so maybe we'll see some dojin fighting games make an apearance as well ^^
Post by: segagamer12 on November 27, 2006, 05:42:09 PM
While I agree Ubisoft si a great studio and enjoy many of thier games, they gave GC awesome supprot also and that dint say much, all these named so far DID give GC support and exclusives too so dont get too excited just yet.
But I will sya that it is still encouraging news to see so many companies devoting entire studios to just Wii but I am waiting to see if Wii gets the same quality games as Ps3 cuz GC had plenty of games but not very many good games.
and Capcom used to make GREAT Disney games back in the day for NES, why did they lose the liscene?
Post by: Hocotate on November 27, 2006, 09:35:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
I am waiting to see if Wii gets the same quality games as Ps3
lol
Post by: Arbok on November 27, 2006, 09:52:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hocotate
This is all very nice to see. Namco-Bandai with their 30 games is the hottest to me
Not to kill hope or anything, but could Namco be counting virtual console games in that 30? I know that has been brought up before with that news brief.
Post by: couchmonkey on November 28, 2006, 01:57:42 AM
Ubisoft did support GameCube, but it was basically the same old multiplatform support Ubisoft gives to any system. We have two Ubisoft Wii exclusives already and at least one more coming, according to the press info.
Capcom and Konami have been pretty quiet. I'm thinking we'll hear more from Capcom, Resident Evil is probably just the teaser, but who knows?
The third party future is still pretty murky for Wii, but since E3 I think there has been a definite trend of third party support moving towards Wii and Xbox 360 and away from PS3.
Post by: Hocotate on November 28, 2006, 03:51:32 AM
lol.
Post by: segagamer12 on November 28, 2006, 05:18:49 AM
Post by: JonLeung on November 28, 2006, 06:29:57 AM
It's still not likely that the main FFs will continue on the Wii. Even though Square-Enix isn't all gung-ho about the PS3 as they were the previous PlayStations, I expected at least some support from them since they even supported the GCN-GBA connection with an exclusive GCN game, Crystal Chronicles. And they love the DS and put out next to nothing that I'm aware of for the PSP. But until there's substantial Wii support, or at least one main FF, most people will still see Square-Enix as part of the Sony camp, and I at least wouldn't consider them a major Wii supporter.
UbiSoft loves the Wii, no question. No surprise there, though.
I believe I heard that Disney's studio is focussed on Nintendo exclusives. So we'll see some DS games from them too. Remember when Capcom made NES Disney games? Some of them, like Duck Tales and the first Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers, were actually pretty fun. Working with Square-Enix on future exclusive Kingdom Hearts games would be hot.
The Take Two news could be more substantial, but we'd have to see if they actually create something with as much attention (good or bad) as GTA for the Wii.
It's cool that Bandai Namco is on board, though I thought Namco was semi-chummy with Nintendo anyway?
What I want to know is, what about Capcom and Konami? Those are the earliest third-party developers I remember recognizing, and are still pretty strong. I imagine that Resident Evil, Metal Gear, Silent Hill, etc. would not only draw in a particular demographic but could also have some pretty involving Wii-specific games.
Post by: WuTangTurtle on November 28, 2006, 08:59:12 AM
Post by: Terranigma Freak on November 28, 2006, 09:39:50 AM
I'm interested in the small yet talented studios like Treasure, Marvelous (ok, fine, they're already making Harvest Moon Wii), Grasshopper, etc. I'm just really annoyed that they're always forgotten even though they make great games. I certainly hope Heroes turn out to be something special. I want to see more support from these small studios!
Post by: Kairon on November 28, 2006, 10:07:33 AM
It seems like Namco is on board, but what about Capcom (who seems to be stubbornly making PSP games, and also has some hits coming to XBox360) or Konami (who seem stuck with PS3 with their MGS franchise)?
And then the more quirky, independently-minded adventurous artsy gamer in me wants to know where all the small developers are. I know we've got Arika and stuff... but we also need a groundswelling of independent movement! Basically, I dream of the Wii having similar acceptance among smaller studios as the GBA and DS have! That low low dev kit price must NOT be wasted!
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MysticGohan on November 28, 2006, 10:27:45 AM
Post by: segagamer12 on November 28, 2006, 12:15:38 PM
I really wanna see Sega give better support also, not just Sonic and monkey balls but I wanna see Virtua Fighter, Shinobi, Shenmue3!!!!, Virtua Cop, house of the dead (perfect for Wii) and maybe some other sequels.
Also they could still port Chrome Hounds and their new mech game as well as the phantasy Star universe game too. damnint Sega dont support Wii VC and shun the real Wii!
Still things look promising so far but not that much considering GC had better support out the door and it just fell of after a couple years. I think it is too early to get too optimistic but I figure 2008 should be when we start seing the really good games.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 28, 2006, 01:47:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
I wanna see Ded Rising on Wii that would be cool. Then of course a good Castlevania by Konami and then some mroe fighting games. GC didnt have cartridges and it got shafted right and left so that wont mean nothing also the Wii STILL has the smallest format of the three (well ok I think it is same as 360 but they got HDdvd upgrade now so that could change)
I really wanna see Sega give better support also, not just Sonic and monkey balls but I wanna see Virtua Fighter, Shinobi, Shenmue3!!!!, Virtua Cop, house of the dead (perfect for Wii) and maybe some other sequels.
Also they could still port Chrome Hounds and their new mech game as well as the phantasy Star universe game too. damnint Sega dont support Wii VC and shun the real Wii!
Still things look promising so far but not that much considering GC had better support out the door and it just fell of after a couple years. I think it is too early to get too optimistic but I figure 2008 should be when we start seing the really good games.
I really don't think HDDVD is going to change anything since it is an optional upgrade, the storage medium will remain single and dual layer DVDs unless MS becomes really stupid. In regards to GC, weren't most of the 3rd party games multiplatform being quick and dirty ports besides Monkey Ball? Wish I could recall the launch lineup for GC because I swear it didn't have nearly as many 3rd party games as Wii has even when taking into consideration the multiplatform and more importantly the amount of EXCLUSIVE 3rd party games.
Post by: Arbok on November 28, 2006, 02:00:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Wish I could recall the launch lineup for GC because I swear it didn't have nearly as many 3rd party games as Wii has even when taking into consideration the multiplatform and more importantly the amount of EXCLUSIVE 3rd party games.
You are quite correct, the GCN only had 12 games at launch in the US, which included:
Luigi's Mansion, Rogue Leader, Wave Race: Blue Storm, Super Monkey Ball, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Crazy Taxi, Tarzan Untamed, NHL Hitz 2002, Madden 2002, All-Star Baseball 2002, Batman Vengeance and Dave Mirra BMX 2.
Thank god for Rogue Leader there, and the fact that Smash Bros came out a month after launch (as did Pikmin for that matter).
Post by: wandering on November 28, 2006, 02:03:31 PM
Post by: Arbok on November 28, 2006, 02:10:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
Are you disputing the quality of Luigi's Mansion, Wave Race, and Super Monkey Ball, good sir?
Actually, those and Rogue Leader are the ones I got on launch day. Monkey Ball was lots of fun, as was Luigi's Mansion... Wave Race... not so much for me. Rogue Leader was the only one of the lot that actually had me hooked, though, and was hard for me to put down, or go back to the other games. It was also the only launch game that I would revisit, in later years, from time to time. So, honestly, I would have felt that the launch lineup was very weak had it not been for that game, despite the fact that some of the other titles were fun in their own right.
To each his own, though.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 28, 2006, 02:20:24 PM
Post by: WuTangTurtle on November 28, 2006, 09:26:04 PM
I really do think a lot of 3rd parties will develop for the Wii to possibly fund their PS3 or 360 projects. Developing a next gen game is high and the Wii is so low cost it would be moronic not to cash in. It makes me wonder why Capcom, who hasn't been doing so great over the years has chosen the PSP over DS.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 28, 2006, 09:33:55 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on November 28, 2006, 10:21:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: animecyberratorwhateverhegoesundernow
I really wanna see Sega give better support also
No thanks. Wii already has enough terrible third party games as it is!
Post by: segagamer12 on November 29, 2006, 03:40:21 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 29, 2006, 05:50:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
I wasnt refering to launch and you know it. At the begeining of Cubes life its till had better 3rd parties backing it up and they actually devlivered. right now Wii has less even less of those same 3rd parties and more gaems from different companies. Its not better support its just different support.
Well right out the door usually means they supported it at launch, I'm still unsure what all this 3rd party support was. Most of the games were quick and dirty ports, so far Wii has support from Capcom, Konami (minimal involvement with GC), Ubisoft, EA, Sega, Activision, Midway, Square, Namco, THQ and now Disney to name a few. I don't believe GC had quite that amount of support, especially from Square or Namco in the beginning.
Post by: Smash_Brother on November 29, 2006, 06:26:07 AM
The list on the first page could have NEVER existed for the GC.
Post by: The Omen on November 29, 2006, 06:43:24 AM
Maybe there will be announcements for mid 07 about these big guns. Would certainly fill in 2007 nicely knowing we had Castlevania and RE coming.
Post by: segagamer12 on November 29, 2006, 07:28:31 AM
OK by supporting the system right out the door I meant they had all signed up and annoucned gaems for it, don't act like you forgot all the announcments early on it its life and even before launch cuz you have short term memory if you have,. Is till haev the issue if GI that showcases all the companies and list thier titles announced for the first two eyars of GC life and that list is just as big and somewhat more impressive than what has been announced for Wii so far. Ill provide ascan if you dont beleive me. GC had STELLER support at teh begining. Hence the reason why so many games got made for it in the first two and a hafl years, it was late 03 when support dropped off.
Nowhere did I say GC has an many titles at launch, but it did have the exact same companies making games for it and Konami and Capcom both gave GC plenty of exclusive titles and many were great games and Konomi onlsy shafted GC after Twin Snakes bombed yet their mulit platform games kept coming and GC even got superior versions at tiems.
Damn people have short term memories. Just look through all the old posts from pre GC launch and early in its life, peopel were announcing GC games rigth and left, just like Wii. I am not saying its not Good support rightnow I am saying it is NO BETTER than what GC had, and not the luanch title but the first two years. GC got off ona good foot but fell apart late in 03 and hasnt gotten back on track since.
MK Deadly Allience was a HUGE game when it came out anbd stirred up quit a buzz and sold better on GC than the other two initialy.
I am not trying to sound pessimistic what I am saying is dont get too optimistic I know that for me the GC line up went from decent to bearable to crap in a matter of months.
now GRANTED GC didnt have no where near the success as Wii is having so I, like many here, do hold on that it iwll get better. But comeone even with all the quantity of games out now how many are actually GOOD games? or even the ones announced so far? MOST of the games on that list are just GC sequels anyways so how is it special or different? seriously think abotu it some more and refresh your memories a bit.
Out the door GC had PLENTY of devs who had SIgned up and were developing games, just not very many made it intime fore launch, but tehyw ere swithcing for crap N64 dev kits to GC dev kits and learning a new system whereas Wii devs only ahd to port GC games over and work the controlls into the game.
It was quicker for them to port games so it makes sense games came out early on. I rememebr being inmpressed witht he early GC games and the early 3rd paarty stuff and knew it would only get better, but I saw how well that turned out.
If I must I will dig out thet GI list and provide scans or at the very list type up what it contains, never mind the Rare stuff that went to Xbox four years latter. Most of the early announcments were just as promising as what we got here. Not saying Wii wont have good support just saying it is not so far so much better than GC to get hopes up too high. Next year maybe Ill feel better about the line up but I was ioptimistic enough to get a Wii at launch where I waited for a year to get the Cube. (not cuz of lack of games but cuz I was still pissed they dropped N64 just a year after I got one and wasnt ready to replace it yet.)
Post by: couchmonkey on November 29, 2006, 07:56:47 AM
Of course it could still all fall apart the minute Wii begins to lose momentum, but the point of my initial post was to document all the great positive third party feedback I've been hearing in the past few months. Ha ha, I shouldn't have used the word "domination" I guess.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 29, 2006, 07:57:48 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 29, 2006, 08:29:44 AM
Tales of Symphonia (temporary in Japan, exclusive here), Lost Kingdoms I & II, Beach Spikers, Burnout (temporary), PSO ep. I & II (temporary, I think), PSO ep. III, Sega Soccer Slam (temporary), Skies of Arcadia (okay it was also on Dreamcast, but the GC version was enhanced).
There are more than that, but I can't think of any more that are really worth bringing up. There was that so-so Mega Man game based on the Battle Network games.
Post by: Arbok on November 29, 2006, 02:30:49 PM
Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee, Rogue Squadron, Rebel Strike, Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles and the Baten Kaitos games (a pox on all who failed to mention them...). Might as well count the RE remake too, if we are counting the Sonic ones.
Also, going off the top of my head, there is the GCN Bomberman game, PN03, Evolution Worlds, Billy Hatcher and several Naruto games.
Post by: segagamer12 on November 29, 2006, 05:51:27 PM
Still I agree that it is promising KNOW but the point I made was repeated by the replies abut deals falling through, simpley put I am not going to take any announced game as definate till I see the gameina store, GC tought me that.
I wish I wasnt so sceptical I really would like to have the faith some of you do, its just comeon after N64 and GC its hard especially when the 3rd party gaems we are seeing are just GC sequels. Red Steel is the ONLY game non-nintendo that is original. Everything else is either direct sequel or spinoff or both.
But I will step down I dont want to make this into an argument and I am sorry I got off to a bad start. Iguiess I am still pissed that Online istn coming for a while event hough thatw as the big promise.
So since you were speaking of exlcusives didnt occur to anyone that GCs ONLY online games were made by non other than Sega. yeah thats support baby.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 29, 2006, 06:34:15 PM
Post by: IceCold on November 29, 2006, 06:46:22 PM
QuoteMore like Third Party Damnation eh?
Ha ha, I shouldn't have used the word "domination" I guess
Post by: Hocotate on November 29, 2006, 09:47:20 PM
One of the main reasons why 3rd party support slowly shrunk was because of the PS2's established success which grew. Now with the 360 still not selling in Japan and only decently in the US, along with Sony having horrible production problems coupled with an onslaught of negative press; I feel that leaves Nintendo as the default choice for 3rd parties.
Wii has a lot of hype going for it right now, I would be surprised if Wii didn't take at least a VERY close 2nd when its all said and done. Japan alone will see to it that Wii succeeds. 3rd parties go where the user base is, this is something Sony won't have for a while.... Will the 3rd parties sit around and wait for Sony to get their act together? They sure didn't wait for Nintendo. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony continues to struggle with shipping enough units well into 07.
Post by: segagamer12 on November 30, 2006, 02:23:33 AM
Last Gen Nintendo themselves made 2 games I liked SSBM and Metroid Prime, the only other Ninty publsihged gaem i gave a crap about was Star Fox Adventures well ok Mario aprty 4 but that didnt last long allt he otehrs I hated.
I didnt get N64 for Nintendo gaems either, Mario 64 and OOT were it, I got it for Shadows of the Empire, MK 4 and Castelvania 64 anda few select other titels.
It matters a lot to me because SNES I had no problem finding the games I wanted, even if they were on Genesis Snes had good versions too, even if they were SNES exclusives there were plenty of good games to chose from.
But N64 and GC had very little to keep me playing. I love GC to death and play it regualry, it had JUST enough to keep me going, and SF adventures is ranked my all time favorite game right now so that means someting to me.
I just really hope that they get a better selection of games this time around, we got ZERO STreet FIghter, Virtua FIghter, Tekken or Marvel VS games. Ps2 got all those and many sequels, classic collectiosn and brand spankin new Smaurai Showdowns. Wii isnt going yto get those games and that still worries me.
I see MK is on the horizons but thast not news Midway LOVES Nintendo always have.
Try and see where I am coming from, half the games I wanterd to play were announced for GC and canceled or kept as PS2 exclusives whent hey could have sold on GC, maybe not steller but enough to pay them back.
Sure companies will see money from Wii and liekly continue to support it, but it will continue to be the suport we see now, oroginal wii remote titels (not interested thank you) and GC sequels with wiimote controls (stil not interested)
I want Virtua Fighter, I want House of the Dead, I want QUAKE, Area 51, Doom, Unreal Tournament, Crhome Hounds, Resident Evil, Street Fighter, Art of Fighting, World Heroes, Samarai SHowdown, Capcom Classic Collection, and games alongthose lines.
With Wii mote there is hope for doom, quake, UT, etc, but nothing has changed regarding fighting games. GC got a lot of DBZ love.
Post by: Smash_Brother on November 30, 2006, 03:16:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution Well I'll say the one thing Wii has going for it is that 3rd party games are getting close to the same amount of attention as first party at or around launch, that is HUGE and completely a 180 from GC or N64.
DING! DING! DING! We have a WINNER!
Seriously, I've said this before and I'll say it again, the fact that a game like Red Steel which is a good game but a new concept and definitely lacking in polish is selling as well as it is, even beating out LoZ on some lists, will make 3rd parties scramble to support the Wii if they haven't already.
Post by: Rhoq on November 30, 2006, 03:30:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
he fact that a game like Red Steel which is a good game but a new concept and definitely lacking in polish is selling as well as it is, even beating out LoZ on some lists, will make 3rd parties scramble to support the Wii if they haven't already.
Another good thing is all of the positive buzz that Madden Wii has been receiving. I'm not much of a sports fan and have never been into sports games (besides wrestling and tennis), but seeing the Wii get so much praise for how it has enhanced Madden's gameplay makes me believe that the Wii could be the ultimate console for sports games. I hope that 2K releases Top Spin for the Wii or Sega does Virtua Tennis Wii in the Spring.
Post by: Hocotate on November 30, 2006, 04:03:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
See that is where I differ from others I guess, I dont care if Nintendo is first or last
Well you should because that is one of the decisive factors that shows whether the support will be there or not. Do you think Wii will get good support if it doesn't sell well?
Also, I agree that 3rd party games being top sellers on Wii is great!
Now they have no excuse :p Quote
oroginal wii remote titels (not interested thank you) and GC sequels with wiimote controls (stil not interested)
sounds like you just don't like Wii period. :p
Post by: couchmonkey on November 30, 2006, 04:09:03 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
See that is where I differ from others I guess, I dont care if Nintendo is first or last,m I care if they get games I wanna play and thast it. I play games I like not games Nintendo tells me too, and I have always been more interested in 3rd partys tuff than nintendo stuff (id say crap but I'd get flamed for that)
But that's part of the point - if Nintendo is in first, it gets those third party games. DS was born on weird games that gamers may not love, but it's now the home for new handheld Mega Man, Final Fantasy and Castlevania games.
Quote
Sure companies will see money from Wii and liekly continue to support it, but it will continue to be the suport we see now, oroginal wii remote titels (not interested thank you) and GC sequels with wiimote controls (stil not interested)
Well, this generation I think is going to piss off and lose a lot of old-time gamers as different types of games come to the forefront. Nintendo will probably get blamed, but it was going to happen anyway. World of Warcraft isn't popular because it's a great game, it's popular because it's a social activity. The Sims is popular not because people like to micromanage an imaginary family, but because they like to talk about what crazy things happened to their imaginary family (and other people don't have to be nerds to relate to the stories).
Quote
With Wii mote there is hope for doom, quake, UT, etc, but nothing has changed regarding fighting games. GC got a lot of DBZ love.
Oh, thanks for reminding me!!! SNK Playmore plans to focus on Wii.
Post by: Arbok on November 30, 2006, 04:14:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
See that is where I differ from others I guess, I dont care if Nintendo is first or last,m I care if they get games I wanna play and thast it.
Gotta agree with Hocotate here. If you want more games, guess what will be the deciding factor in that? Yep, how well the system sells. Firms will support a system based on its userbase, which is why this should be important to anyone who is either thinking of or has purchased a Wii.
Quote
Originally posted by: segagamer12
I didnt get N64 for Nintendo gaems either, Mario 64 and OOT were it, I got it for Shadows of the Empire, MK 4 and Castelvania 64 anda few select other titels.
Not Mario Kart 64? Not F-Zero X? Not Super Smash Bros?!?
Allow me to say that your taste in games is very lacking.
Post by: Smash_Brother on November 30, 2006, 05:07:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArbokNot Super Smash Bros?!?
NOT Super Smash Bros?!?!?
Hold me back! HOLD ME BACK!!!
Post by: couchmonkey on November 30, 2006, 06:27:04 AM
Seriously, I have to say there's a bit lacking in segagamer's N64 collection, but Nintendo fans can get a bit snobby about the first party games. There are others out there - and that's the point of the thread, the third party support is improving.
Post by: Arbok on November 30, 2006, 09:01:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Seriously, I have to say there's a bit lacking in segagamer's N64 collection, but Nintendo fans can get a bit snobby about the first party games. There are others out there - and that's the point of the thread, the third party support is improving.
So true... like second party games! Like Goldeneye, Perfect Dark...
Okay, I understand the point, but in terms of the N64 there really weren't a boat load of good third party games out there. I will give some credit for the first Extreme G, Rogue Squadron, WCW vs. NWO, International Superstar Soccer 64, Starcraft 64 (although the PC version blows it out of the water), Resident Evil 2 and probably Ogre Battle 64 (although I never found it to buy and would snatch it in a hurry on the VC). Really, though, there just weren't a whole lot of quality N64 3rd party titles out there, and the GCN actually had far more I would say (which is odd given that the N64 sold much better). Hopefully the Wii will improve even further in this relation during its lifetime.
Post by: segagamer12 on November 30, 2006, 11:54:29 AM
I guess you miseed that,. I didnt feel the need to name the obvious. If I liekd Melle why wouldnt I like the original?
Again I wasnt trying to make an arugment but nwo that its settled into a reasoanble discussion I am content with furthering my view.
I had 2o N64 games, I cant list them all, and I have had over 30 gc games so I havent been totally disapointed.
and I never said I dont like Wii I said I dont like the new style of gaems it is bringing. Same with DS I only buy traditional games for that as well.
I did like Wii Sports so far so lieki said before there is still hope it will get better, juts the list on the front page that started this discussion isnt impressive, to me.
I DO think it is promising that thrid parties are suporoting Wii, I think I said that before, I just dont think the list of games being announced so far is very promising.
Dont get me wrong I am very satisfied overal with my GC yet tehre were times when I felt like giving up on it cuz game after game I wanted to play wouldnt come to it.
My cash flow fluctuates and sometiems I have ass loads of cash and other tiems Im broker than a coke smoker
so I dont usualy suprot multiple game systems. Last gen I had no choice but to gowith Nintendo as I developed utter hatred for PS and it took MS a LOOOOOOOOOOONG time to get enough game s on it I liked and by then I was knee deep in GC.
All the suppor tin the world wont translate into diddly squat if the companies I want to make games for it dont make the games I want to play. So far the games I want to play havent been announced and nothign along those lines has either.
Red Steel I havent tried, I plan on getting either that or COD3 tomarrow or over the weekend at least.
Its just hard to get too excited for games I woudl liek to see come. Maybe it will help if I am more specific.
If QUAKE doesnt get made for Wii considering the success of Red Steel and that it is a curent gen game and DC games got ported to GC early on then I will be pissed. Same with Doom. Heres why. N64 got Quake and Doom and exclusive versions even.
GC didnt get squat.
Wii is tailor made for those two games and the devs who make them havent said anything that elads me to beleive they will be made.
Capcom hasnt pledge much of anything I care about yet, IF Street Fighter makes it ti Wii and transates well then I will be happy, if not again ill be disapointed. I was so utterely owrried fighting gaems woudnt work withe Wii mtoe my first gaem was a fighting game, and I am honestly surpised at how well it does work.
So if DBZ sells well and Capcom pledges support for the Wii and still doesnt maek SF I will agian feel let down, after all they wont have any excuses.
I just want to see games that I kjnwo I will play get made for it instead of PS3 and 360. So far 360 has three or four games all 3rd party and all of which are suporting wii game sthat I really wanna play, yet they havent been annoucned as ports yet.
Why the wait? I visit Sega.com daily and all I see is PS3 after Ps3 announcment and no love for Wii.
Granted Sega is the best example, maybe not to those here anyways, but they are my favorite dev and have never let me down games wise.
So bottom line, READ THIS ITS THE WHOLE POINT.
I KNOW I will be satisfied with SSBBrawl, and Metroid Prime 3
everything else announced I am unsure of, BUT if there is NO Quake, NO Doom, NO SF, No House of the Dead, as they are all tailor made for Wii, there is NO excuse to not make these games, then I am going to be upset. Not to the point of abandoing it as it DOES haev one quality (which IS the major selling point for me so far) adn that is VC, AS long as that gets suport Ill be content.
Does that explain it better? Please dont take offence I am not trying to argue I am trying to have a discussion and share my views, Its hard for me to get too excited after so many let downs recently. Is that fair enough? If Quake gets made for Wii and Chrome hounds and Doom then Ill be singingits praises till next gen. or at least be satiosfied enough to keep going.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on November 30, 2006, 02:08:00 PM
The GO Nintendo link
I don't care much for EA, but again this is really good. This is also the second company that creates a development group just for the Wii. This is the first time I heard of companies creating development groups for one sole console.
Post by: Amodaus1 on November 30, 2006, 07:13:21 PM
Capcom doesn't care anymore.
FACTS:
They destroyed megaman into a repetative formula filled with perdictable power ups and crappy levels.
They closed down clover. I'm still convinced Okami would have been made for the cube, had not capcom decided to be money hungry and go with the PS2, where it didn't make any money, which with the cube it would have, or the wii at least, this game was designed for it, but thats another story.
The fired the creator of street fighter. He did not resign, he was fired. (I'm pretty sure, i could be wrong, but i remember reading he was let go.)
I think the creator of Resident Evil left for clover which is now closed down, so i don't know where he is now. Possibly fired too? At this point capcom only cares about money, and they got Resident Evil 4 out of him already, so they can milk a couple of sequels out of the gameplay with the same engine. I don't see why they need him to stick around.
Capcom isn't very intrested in making 2-D games anymore as they simply do not sell well in the american market.
They made that GOD AWFUL final fight sequel. It was blatantly terrible.
I remember capcom for their glory days on the nes and snes, and to some extend the ps. Lately they don't seem to give a damn about any of their old franchises unless it's about making a compilation for some quick and dirty cash. They have foresaken almost everything, THEY GOT LUCKY that the creator of RE wanted to go ahead and re-invent the series, because those RE: Outbreak games were all sorts of suck, and RE Nemisis / Veronica / and Zero weren't anything that RE 2 didn't achieve. They also got lucky that they stumbled upon Devil May Cry, which they almost fumbled completely with DMC 2 (although, at least the creator was trying to change the game up, now the DMC 2 didn't sell, he reverted back to DMC 1 gameplay in DMC 3, which is alot more of the same, I smell megaman syndrome which should just be called capcom syndrome.)
Sorry for the rant, but Capcom is a SHELL of itself. Its just a name, thats hollow compared to its former greatness. I COULD GO INTO LENGTHS about how this has also happened to square. (which is funny because from nes to snes, every developer ported onto genisis EXCEPT these two developers, its almost as if they were second parties, but now i feel like they hit a crap shoot.)
ut yeah i most certainly hope they DO NOT bring dead rising to the wii. Why? Have youy played grand theft auto? Were you bored out of your skull like i was? Did you manage to withstand the clevarly desguised drive into the glowing circle minigames under different conditions gameplay? Could you bear the total lack of a proper combat system, or the fact that enemy AI consisted of such a bad script that the only way for them to acctually kill you was to overwhelm you?
Well if you like GTA then maybe Dead rising is for you. I played this game. It is very short. On top of it, its damn annyoing to get where you need to be ON TIME. But it plays ALOT like gta, just no auto-aiming, its manual, and alot less of those "mini-games" or should i say "missions" but at least its not as repetative due to having less "missions" as compared to GTA.
Once again, sorry for the rant. But capcom is dead to me.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 30, 2006, 08:20:41 PM
Post by: Amodaus1 on November 30, 2006, 09:02:05 PM
Capcom i feel is the epitome of them all. They killed one of the franchises that launched them into sucess, which is street fighter. And they basically converted megaman into a pokemon clone on the gba. That last one just gets me damn angry, as megaman is what set capcom off to become succseful.
But i'm also mad at square. I'm tired of them trying to make a movie. Thats all they do. Their gameplay in rpg's has not evloved at all. Mario Rpg and Paper mario is the indicator of where turn based rpg's should go. Interactive battles, that allow player to maximize and minimize damage and perform magical attacks based on SKILL not pointless power leveling that consumes hours of time.
I will forever be in intelligent systems debt. They are, in my opinion, nintendo's greatest assest. If only they made paper mario more difficult, then i'd be 100% satisfied with them, and not just 99.9%. Advance wars is their master piece.
But yeah. Square, i thought was only good for the period of the snes. And only final fantasy 6 was worth mentioning, not 4, that one sucked. "Hey congrats you collected those X # of crystals, now lets go to the damn moon!" Who the hell thought that one up? The mana series wasn't good either, i hated secret of mana to be honest, and was glad to smite down that stupid dragon at the end. FF 6 was good though, but square is all about Chrono Trigger. If they had never released that game, then i could honestly say i could care less if they had never exsisted.
But i'm dissapointed at others. Sega has been pillaged. I think playmore bought them. That was the death sentence to all their creativity. Not that i like sega mind you, i think the only good thing that came from them was their support for Treasure. Treasure is a studio that has never let me down, and guardian heros (for saturn) is beyond awsome, and remains the last great beat em up side-scroller. I wish nintendo would just buy treasure and let them do whatever they want.
Who else. Namco? they are ok. But no series other then pac-man has really intrested me from them.
Konami is good. In fact i like Konami alot, problem is they never develope for nintendo anymore. I hate that. Whatever, at least the castlevania creator likes keeping the 2D castlevanias on DS. But i'd like to see more Konami support, i'd like to see how elibits turns out.
I'm dissapointed at Nintendo. Yeah, i said it, THEY DISSAPPOINTED ME LIKE HELL THIS PAST GENERATION. Although the 64 had poor third party support, damn did nintendo release some REALLY good games during that period. They translated every franchise into 3D perfectly, almost as well as they perfected every series from the nes into the SNES. But HOLY CRAP did they drop the ball on GC. They didn't perfect the way the did nes to snes, when it came to 64 into GC. WindWaker was a sham. I liked the game, but 4 temples!? THATS IT! AND THEY KNOWING TOLD US THEY CUT OUT THE LAST 3 TO RUSH THE DAMN GAME! AND SO WE HAVE TO GO ON A MONEY COLLECTING SPREE TO BUY STUPID MAPS FROM TINGLE! FROM TINGLE! WHY IS TINGLE EVEN IN THAT GAME!
Sunshine wasn't as good as mario 64, period. All arguements to this are not valid, it's just a fact. There were less challenges, once again substitued with blue coin hunting, which was kinda cool cause it made you explore the levels, but it wasn't enough to substitue a whole challenge. And when you get 120 shines nothing happens... what up with that? Double Dash < Mario Kart 64. Star Fox 64 > everything starfox related in GC.
There is only one game that nintendo did a better job on, and thats melee. They perfected it into a solid conventinal 2-D fighter (which in my opnion rivals Street fighter 3: 3rd strike as best fighting game ever made), and concealed it a party game for casual gamers who can't understand the deeper mechanics. They also did metriod 100% perfect, but they did do metriod in the 64 era, so its not really an upgrade, it a reinvention.
But with all that said. After buying wii, and playing twilight princess i have hope. I liked OoT, but its not my favorite zelda, and i acctually rank it pretty low (lower then ALL of the 2D Zeldas, even links adventure) But Twilight princess is simply amazing. It is everything i ever wanted in zelda (well ok, its not hard, but thats my beef with almost every nintendo game). I urge everyone here, even though its a nintendo forum and you all probably will, to play this game. It is simply great. There are no words for it. If you like Zelda, this is the upgrade nintendo failed to deliver on last generation. It is the perfection of translation, similar to the original zelda into link to the past. This in my opinion this game is not OoT's succesor, it is what OoT SHOULD have been.
But yeah. I hope the wii and nintendo will deliver.
Post by: IceCold on November 30, 2006, 09:14:25 PM
QuoteThem and Amusement Vision (F-Zero GX)..
I wish nintendo would just buy treasure and let them do whatever they want.
Post by: Arbok on November 30, 2006, 10:23:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Who else. Namco? they are ok. But no series other then pac-man has really intrested me from them.
Tales? Baten Kaitos? Soul Calibur?
I'm more interested in Namco than any other third party developer personally.
Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
There is only one game that nintendo did a better job on, and thats melee. They perfected it into a solid conventinal 2-D fighter (which in my opnion rivals Street fighter 3: 3rd strike as best fighting game ever made), and concealed it a party game for casual gamers who can't understand the deeper mechanics.
Preech it!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on November 30, 2006, 11:58:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Sunshine wasn't as good as mario 64, period. All arguements to this are not valid, it's just a fact. There were less challenges, once again substitued with blue coin hunting, which was kinda cool cause it made you explore the levels, but it wasn't enough to substitue a whole challenge. And when you get 120 shines nothing happens... what up with that? Double Dash < Mario Kart 64. Star Fox 64 > everything starfox related in GC.
Haha, so if someone doesn't agree with you that SMS is more fun or a better game than SM64 their opinion is invalid? How I hate stupid statements like that, people have differing opinions and some of us actually prefer SMS. I enjoyed it more than SM64 because I felt it took what made SM64 great and added so much more, the challenges were more diverse with the whole levels sometimes changing with each new sprite to get, the boss fights were better and more varied, characters were more interesting, tighter controls, FLUDD was a blast to use, had some amazing old school platform jumping, better story (ok it wasn't that great but it was better than SM64s, not to mention a solid ending) and had alot more to explore. The only flaws I found with the game was that the final boss fight had alot to be desired, the blue coin searching was lame (then again I thought searching for red coins in SM64 was lame), and the lack of awar for 120 shines was unfortunate (though let's face it, the reward wasn't that great in SM64 either if you look back on it).
In the way of other games for GC that were great, we had the Metroid Prime series (yeah it was made by Retro but they are basically part of Nintendo), Smash Brothers, Paper Mario Thousand Year Door, Zelda Wind Waker (Don't care what you think about this game, I still find it to have alot of personality and my 2nd favorite Zelda, even if it was rushed), Fire Emblem, Jungle Beat, and I'm sure there are some others I'm forgetting. I agree though that Mario Kart DD and the Star Fox games were huge dissapointments but then again neither SF game was made by Nintendo, I think one was made by Namco and the other by Rare.
Post by: Amodaus1 on December 01, 2006, 02:07:00 AM
I'm willing to listen to opinions and discuss, I merely said the statement to emphasize my point (regarding my statement about SM64 being better than SMS). I don't think SMS stuck out like SM64, FLUDD and the 4 nozzels you can use weren't enough to differentiate the gameplay in my opinion. Although i did like the levels where shadow mario took away your water pack, and you were forced to do some crazy 3-d platforming, but i think when you went back to do it with the pack and under a time limit it always seemed harder.
My point is, i think they rushed sunshine as well. There every level had red coin challenges, sometimes 2!(exluding the sand bird which was awsome) Then we had to collect 100 coins in each level for a shine, Then we had the funness of blue coins, and on top of that some of the hidden shines merely required you to spray some random wall in a level and you got a shine, with no challenge what so ever. This is why i feel SM64 was superior.
Aside from the games made by IS and metriod, which i mentioned before were great, i felt like nintendo dropped the ball on most of its series. Mario not so much as it felt they dropped it on zelda. You might enjoy Windwaker, but after you play TP, i can tell you that you will immediately rank it higher then Windwaker. The game is just made better, has more temples, its more challenging, theres more to do, and it doesn't take 2000 years to sail around in your boat while trying to change the wind. around to be sure you hit your mark.
But yeah back to the topic of 3rd parties. I'd like to see some more 3rd party support, but as i stated earlier, i feel many companies are shells of their former selves, releasing only a few, and by few i mean like 1 or 2 titles, that are worth buying.
Quote
Originally posted by: ArbokQuote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
Who else. Namco? they are ok. But no series other then pac-man has really intrested me from them.
Tales? Baten Kaitos? Soul Calibur?
I'm more interested in Namco than any other third party developer personally.Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
There is only one game that nintendo did a better job on, and thats melee. They perfected it into a solid conventinal 2-D fighter (which in my opnion rivals Street fighter 3: 3rd strike as best fighting game ever made), and concealed it a party game for casual gamers who can't understand the deeper mechanics.
Preech it!
Yeah theres a reason why Smash is the best selling GC game. I surprised at the amount of hardcore fighting gamers it converted into its play. Some of their videos are crazy, i can't even wavedash properly in a match, i don't know how they do it all the time.
As for namco, most of the stuff i like from them is medicore. I'm not a fan of tales, nor do a like soul calibur, i feel that 3D fighters have become dial-combo games, unless we're talking about virtual fighter 4 or 2, the timing is so strick on it that it plays almost like its 2D. And Kaitos i didn't play because i became fed up with turn based rpg's in general. They are simply not progressing in the sense of interaction between the player and the game. And i don't believe hack and slash real time is the answer, thats just copying the sucess of diablo. IS has come up with the sulotion in, my opinion, to the stagnation of turn based rpgs, and yet no one bothers to copy them. i wonder why that is?
Post by: couchmonkey on December 01, 2006, 04:17:32 AM
I agree on turn-based RPGs getting kind of stale, I'd like to see more following the Mario RPG formula. No random battles!
I also agree on a lot of Nintendo's first-party games falling below expectations this generation, but I would say that this was a result of Nintendo trying to keep unrealistic release dates. Instead of delaying games a few extra months like they did all the time on N64, they tried to make the games "on time", but that hurt the quality. I hope Nintendo has learned its lesson about that - third party support is the only way to make a real difference in your release schedule, tightening up your own release dates just hurts the quality.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 01, 2006, 06:27:32 AM
Post by: Amodaus1 on December 01, 2006, 03:15:13 PM
Quote
Even though I do love Wind Waker, I have to agree it felt rushed and even a bit incomplete in areas, in fact I"ve expressed alot of dissatisfaction in the triforce treasure hunt which felt very artificial.
Amen brother.
Post by: segagamer12 on December 01, 2006, 06:28:32 PM
All I can say is I havent gotten my hoeps up too high, especially after playign red steel and so far not liking it.
Post by: Kairon on December 01, 2006, 06:47:47 PM
Isn't it ironic that the N64 was really such a golden age for Nintendo games, but also the beginning of a downward market spiral?
Anyways, here's to the hope of third party fulfilling the promise of interesting games on the Wii. Seriously, the games don't need to be perfect, but they DO need to give me wii-inspired newness... I WILL buy Red STeel 2.
Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
But i'm also mad at square. I'm tired of them trying to make a movie. Thats all they do. Their gameplay in rpg's has not evloved at all. Mario Rpg and Paper mario is the indicator of where turn based rpg's should go. Interactive battles, that allow player to maximize and minimize damage and perform magical attacks based on SKILL not pointless power leveling that consumes hours of time.
AHHHH! Get OUT of my MIND!!!
Quote
Originally posted by: Amodaus1
...The mana series wasn't good either, i hated secret of mana to be honest, and was glad to smite down that stupid dragon at the end. FF 6 was good though, but square is all about Chrono Trigger. If they had never released that game, then i could honestly say i could care less if they had never exsisted.
Oh, never mind. You're not reading my mind AT ALL. I loved SoM and HATED Chrono... my beef with square is not just your interactive movie complaint, but also that they're stuff is becoming too cross-pollinated with anime cliches...
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 01, 2006, 08:31:48 PM
Post by: Amodaus1 on December 02, 2006, 03:16:11 AM
I feel like nintendo doesn't need to innovated to nessesarily make a great title. They just need time. I forgot who posted it, but they were right, that is definetly why wii needs 3rd party support.
Post by: Kairon on December 02, 2006, 05:17:52 AM
Even look at their other franchises: Mario Kart is basically the same, perhaps even worse, with it's only major gameplay change the not-so-consequential driver-passenger aspect. Star Fox they actually farmed out because they probably didn't have any ideas on how to change the series at all. Donkey Kong actually got innovative, but only 3 years in and by resorting to a simpler, throw-back arcade sensibility.
I truly believe that Nintendo, internally, was struggling not just under the pressure to release games earlier, but also the inability of internal teams to come up with new concepts. I have a personal theory that ties this into the Wii and DS: these innovative control hardware solutions have actually revitalized Nintendo's creative capacities in that they are given new ground to break, new challenges to overcome and new limitations to work around.
In fact, we can trace Wii Sport's and the Wii's design sensibilities back to the DS and Brain Age. Brain Age shows that simple can sell, as long as that simple is maddeningly intuitive (using the DS' touch screen) and addictive on a simple and small scale. Just like all you do with Brain Age is talk, or write numbers, all you do in Wii Sports is swing in a number of different contexts. Brain Age and Wii Sports, both amazingly ground-breaking pieces of innovative software, both benefitted from new input type platforms in ways that neither Mario Sunshine nor Wind Waker could.
In this sense, one can say that the Wii is a lot like the N64. Both systems are introducing brand new input concepts that change the player's relationship to the game and thus make old experiences feel new again.
The N64 was host to an explosion of innovation within Nintendo due to its new input system: rumble technology, 3D control, 3D cameras, Z-targetting, Party Software, e-card based game micro sales, handheld-connectivity, and Animal Crossing's social gaming, micro-items, and customizable avatar creation.
What innovations did the GC inspire from Nintendo? ... Pikmin's multiple character group indirect control gameplay, game specific controllers (Donkey Konga, Jungle Beat, Odama, Mario Party 7), and maybe multiple screen simultaneous gaming are the only things that come to mind.
But unlike the GC, the Wii introduces new input philosophies that will, I hope, inspire the innovation from Nintendo that I remember so well from the N64 era and saw so little of in the GC era.
So, in conclusion, I DEFINITELY see Nintendo as having had trouble creting magic, i.e. innovation, with the GC and this now being possibly rectified with the Wii (as my bit about Wii Sports illustrates).
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 02, 2006, 08:51:51 AM
Personally I think innovation is a tad bit overrated, and sometimes if it isn't broke don't fix it like Super Mario Sunshine. Games like SMS or Wind Waker may not have had tons of innovation but they felt like whole new experiences and that is what matters most. Heck look at LTTP or Super Metroid, neither game was truly innovative but they were well designed, and that is what truly made them great even if the play style remained basically the same with a few more bells and whistles.
Post by: zakkiel on December 02, 2006, 09:02:32 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 02, 2006, 12:23:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
Hmm. I join with Kairon on the SMS and WW front. I was underwhelmed by both. While you can get some mileage out of just adding a few bells and whistles and polishing things up, there's a limit to how far a formula will stretch before you need to change it up. The only exception I've seen is the FPS, which is largely stagnant aside from graphics.
SMS and WW had much more than a few bells and whistles, regardless of what you thought of the water pack it still was a unique feature that added more depth to the gameplay. Wind Waker's sailing added a large change to the Zelda formula, especially when it came to exploration, not to mention one of the best stories and characters within the Zelda series. Neither game should be classified as adding a "few bells and whistles" because that is blatantly not true. I can understand lack of polish, especially for Wind waker, but to deny that they each tried something new is ridiculous. Once again I say the N64 was Nintendo's golden age mainly because of 3 things:
1. Miyamoto
2. The jump to 3D
3. Analog controls
Even games like OOT or Mario 64 still felt like true Mario and Zelda games just in a 3D world. Nothing worries me more than NIntendo fans who want to see Nintendo drastically change the franchises that made them great because of "innovation". Like I stated before some of Nintendo's best games were extensions of previous formulas with small doses of innovation, whether it be Link to the Past, Super Mario Bros 3, SMW, or Super Metroid.
Post by: Luigi Dude on December 02, 2006, 01:11:14 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolutionQuote
Even games like OOT or Mario 64 still felt like true Mario and Zelda games just in a 3D world. Nothing worries me more than NIntendo fans who want to see Nintendo drastically change the franchises that made them great because of "innovation". Like I stated before some of Nintendo's best games were extensions of previous formulas with small doses of innovation, whether it be Link to the Past, Super Mario Bros 3, SMW, or Super Metroid.
I agree with this completly. The thing that I never got is how people could say they didn't like Mario Sunshine because it was too similar to Mario 64, yet alot of these same people would say their favorite Mario game is Super Mario World. This makes no damn since, since there's way more difference between Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine then there was between Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World.
Post by: Ceric on December 02, 2006, 02:02:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Luigi DudeQuote
Originally posted by: VGrevolutionQuote
Even games like OOT or Mario 64 still felt like true Mario and Zelda games just in a 3D world. Nothing worries me more than NIntendo fans who want to see Nintendo drastically change the franchises that made them great because of "innovation". Like I stated before some of Nintendo's best games were extensions of previous formulas with small doses of innovation, whether it be Link to the Past, Super Mario Bros 3, SMW, or Super Metroid.
I agree with this completly. The thing that I never got is how people could say they didn't like Mario Sunshine because it was too similar to Mario 64, yet alot of these same people would say their favorite Mario game is Super Mario World. This makes no damn since, since there's way more difference between Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine then there was between Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World.
You right Super Mario Sunshine was better then Mario 64 and Super Mario Bros 3 was better then Super Mario World in that set.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 02, 2006, 02:50:50 PM
Post by: IceCold on December 02, 2006, 05:43:01 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 02, 2006, 07:21:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Sunshine was awesome.. I like Mario 64 better for sentimental reasons, but the only thing lacking in Sunshine was the level design.
Yeah some of the level designs had alot to be desired, but the boss fights were tons of fun and the variety in the levels was pretty good. It seemed like with Sunshine Nintendo designed the levels to be more living and changing enviroments since you are constantly interacting with different NPCs and events, which is in real contrast to Mario 64 which was basically platformer based.
Post by: Nick DiMola on December 02, 2006, 07:45:04 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on December 02, 2006, 07:48:15 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on January 31, 2007, 04:16:02 AM
Post by: IceCold on January 31, 2007, 06:05:33 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on January 31, 2007, 06:47:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
They say they have 30 games lined up - I expect we'll hear a lot from them around E3 or possibly GDC.
They've said that, then gone out of their way to announce support for everything except the Wii and DS, including the "need to sell 1,000,000 copies to break even" PS3.
Post by: MaryJane on February 02, 2007, 02:47:35 AM
Games, Games, Games, Games, and some more Games.
Good news for Wii owners drought looks unlikely. It would be foolish to say these are all going to be AAA games but at the same time, the support is what matters, if they test the waters with a few games and one sells, we'll see more and hopefully better of the same type, or a branching effect. Games are good. I like games. I want to be a game.
Post by: son of lucas on February 02, 2007, 03:21:46 AM
Owning Japan opens a lot of doors for the Big N.
Post by: couchmonkey on February 02, 2007, 09:10:50 AM
Post by: Ceric on February 02, 2007, 09:13:41 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 02, 2007, 09:21:23 AM
Aren't they usually anyway?
Post by: couchmonkey on February 02, 2007, 09:38:54 AM
I sincerely doubt it's number one on DS at this point though.
While we're at it, might as well point out that Konami is rocking the house right now, but you all know that.
Post by: cubist on February 05, 2007, 10:31:52 AM
Everyday, I'm hearing about a new game. These are good times. Now, if we can speed up the Virtual Console releases, I'll be a happy camper.
Post by: jasonditz on February 05, 2007, 12:07:45 PM
Post by: Mario on February 05, 2007, 12:27:32 PM
Post by: MaryJane on February 05, 2007, 12:42:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: cubist
I was going to start a thread for this, but apparently we've got a nice one going here. I haven't read a lot of the thread, but I just wanted to comment on how I haven't seen this much Wii 3rd Party Support since the SNES days.
Everyday, I'm hearing about a new game. These are good times. Now, if we can speed up the Virtual Console releases, I'll be a happy camper.
I haven't seen this much Wii 3rd Party Support since... ever.
Lol, anyway I do agree with you on the rest of the post.
Post by: jasonditz on February 05, 2007, 01:05:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
I'd bet Sega.
Now that I think about it though, what about Hudson? Those Mario Party games sold a ton.
Post by: Mario on February 05, 2007, 01:58:12 PM
Sega benefitted hugely by getting in early with the Cube, something Ubi hopes to do with the Red Steel franchise and maybe Rayman.
Post by: Darc Requiem on February 05, 2007, 02:34:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"EA announces it's intention to be the #1 third party publisher for Nintendo systems"
Aren't they usually anyway?
EA has completely dedicated one of its development houses to the Wii exclusively. They never did that for Gamecube.
Post by: jasonditz on February 05, 2007, 04:02:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mario
Well they developed the games but Nintendo published them. Sega would win because Sonic 2 Battle and Sonic Mega Collection are both million sellers in the US alone, but they flopped in Japan unlike Mario Party so it could even out. However, then you have the Super Monkey Balls which did over a million combined in just the US. Sonic Adventure DX almost sold a million I think, Billy Hatcher also sold solid, and Beach Spikers etc.
Sega benefitted hugely by getting in early with the Cube, something Ubi hopes to do with the Red Steel franchise and maybe Rayman.
What about all those Resident Evils though... and the Viewtiful Joes... and Killer 7 and Product Number 03, which sold 7 copies and 3 copies, respectively
Post by: Kairon on February 05, 2007, 07:22:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Darc RequiemQuote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"EA announces it's intention to be the #1 third party publisher for Nintendo systems"
Aren't they usually anyway?
EA has completely dedicated one of its development houses to the Wii exclusively. They never did that for Gamecube.
That's EA Salt Lake City right? Don't forget that they still have EA Burnaby which handled all of EA's rush job Wii launch ports!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 05, 2007, 08:01:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironThat's EA Sault Lake City right? Don't forget that they still have EA Burnaby which handled all of EA's rush job Wii launch ports!
Madden Wii was pretty good, though.
Post by: couchmonkey on February 08, 2007, 05:23:54 AM
Post by: IceCold on February 08, 2007, 09:01:05 AM
Post by: Louieturkey on February 09, 2007, 08:49:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Christmas 2007 is going to leave us all broke..
Or missing a whole lot of games.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 09, 2007, 08:59:32 AM
YOU WILL NOT PLAY BRAWL IN YOUR LIFETIME
Post by: IceCold on February 26, 2007, 04:26:37 PM
QuoteWell, looks like Ubisoft picked a winning horse - this is great news..
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
Ubisoft intends to become the number 1 third-party publisher - by supporting Wii. It has tentatively announced seven more games for Jan-Mar 2007
Quote
Thanks in part to the continued success of the Wii, sales for Ubisoft in the U.S. alone skyrocketed 78 percent during January. The Paris-based company continues to be the #1 independent publisher on the Wii. Ubisoft's future is looking quite bright...
French publisher Ubisoft, which has been the staunchest third party supporter of Nintendo's Wii from the get go, today issued a brief statement concerning the company's continued growth for the month of January. Driven largely by the Wii's momentum coming off holiday '06, Ubisoft experienced sales growth of 78 percent in the U.S., 55 percent in the United Kingdom, 30 percent in France and 41 percent in Germany.
Post by: D_MaN87 on February 27, 2007, 12:23:49 AM
Post by: Jin-X on February 28, 2007, 01:52:44 AM
It's like they dont understand the difference between stuff like Star Wars, LotR, Shrek, that can be enjoyed by anybody, and dumbed down crap not made for anybody over 10.
Nintendo fans buy Nintendo games because they are great, not because they "look a certain way". This is something a lot of 3rd parties don't seem to get.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 03:51:38 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: MaryJane on February 28, 2007, 05:08:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Note to self: Buy ManHunt 2.~Carmine "Cai" M. RedKairon@aol.com
This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.
I don't like how Nintendo fans are generalized but you can't really blame the third parties for thinking that way. they look at sales, and Wii Sports is outselling everything. Why? because it is simple. Nintendo's own definition of what makes a game mature vs. childish is its complexity. in those terms it's a childish game now I agree there is a vast difference between Wii Sports and say SpongeBob but they are both simple games that anyone can play and from a business perspective that makes them similar.
The solution is to make games like Manhunt 2 and No More Heroes million sellers.
I know this stigma has been around before the Wii, but the important thing is for it to not go any further.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 28, 2007, 05:30:21 AM
Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 05:46:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.
Who's saying it won't be fun? You might LEARN something about yourself.
Who knows? The first time I pantomime garroting some poor fool with the nunchuck wire, I might suddenly realize I've found my true calling in life.
Keep an open mind!
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 05:48:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.
Sorry but I don't throw 60€ away to send a message.
Screw sending a message. Try broadening your horizons. Satisfying your curiousity. Understanding how the other half lives. Watching a Korean horror movie.
And all that jazz.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 05:51:05 AM
Quote
This is something everyone should do who is complaining about too many games for kids on the Wii.
Ugh this is what I hate. Don't get me wrong, in principle I'm glad that Manhunt 2 is coming to the Wii. Wii could definitely use more adult-oriented (I won't say mature) titles. However, let's not pretend that the first Manhunt a mediocre game and the second won't likely be just as good or worse; or that Rockstar Toronto won't mostly just be taking what's made for the PS2 and porting it up to the Wii. Not trying to kill hopes in the game, but Manhunt 2 just screams "mediocre franchise being ported to every platform that'll take it for a quick cash grab." I could be wrong, but it's not really looking like I am.
(oh, and pretty much everything I said applies to Godfather, as well)
It's a pretty thin tight rope. I want to support developers' endeavors in developing mature and adult-oriented games, but at the same time I'm not going to support and thus encourage mediocrity...which is mostly what third parties seem to be giving the Wii at this point.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 06:01:47 AM
Besides, it's so unfair to write things off as mediocre. Halo was mediocre. And look where that got it. I think this Nintendo-centric elitist attitude to third party games and ESPECIALLY third party "mass market" games needs to be reigned in.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
*note: I have not yet watched an actual Korean Horror flick. However, I do have in my collection both Lars Von Trier's Dogville and the original My Little Pony Movie. That's gotta count for something right?*
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 06:17:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi (oh, and pretty much everything I said applies to Godfather, as well)
How do you know Godfather will be mediocre? If the Wii controls work well, it looks like it'll not only be a fun game abut a bit of a workout as well.
This will also be the first game which allows you to swing an object with the Wiimote into someone's face.
I'm not interested in GTA or any of its clones, but the idea of roughing people up with the Wii controls is intriguing, for an "I gotta see this..." reaction more than anything.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 06:25:49 AM
Quote
Besides, it's so unfair to write things off as mediocre. Halo was mediocre. And look where that got it. I think this Nintendo-centric elitist attitude to third party games and ESPECIALLY third party "mass market" games needs to be reigned in.
Well, Manhunt was a mediocre game with a much smaller scope and not nearly enough selling potential to be compared to Halo. If Halo is mediocre than Manhunt was utter crap. The games just can't be compared.
I don't think it's elitist to NOT buy a uninteresting/mediocre/bad game. I'm not saying the game shouldn't be on the Wii--on the contrary, I'm glad it is. But only in the sense that it may inspire someone to make an exclusive adult-oriented game with much more potential. Until the game proves otherwise, I'm writing this off as the sequel to a mediocre game.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 06:42:31 AM
Some people have higher standards and need something that's more top shelf and more of a "clear winner."
And some people are more forgiving, willing to find fun where we seek it, take chances and take that oh-so-dangerous risk of optimism.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: The Omen on February 28, 2007, 07:02:07 AM
Quote
I don't think it's elitist to NOT buy a uninteresting/mediocre/bad game.
Yes it certainly is when you haven't seen or played said game.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 28, 2007, 07:15:41 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 07:23:06 AM
Out: Criticizing third-party games on other consoles
In: Praising third-party games on Nintendo consoles
Amazing! An almost complete inversion of what came before! Hopefully this new love-what-we-have fanboy tactic will yield positive results whereas the previous hate-what-we-don't strategy only bred isolation, discrimination, and distrust.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 07:29:22 AM
I've typically always bought games which were Nintendo-exclusives, but in the Wii's case, I'll be more than willing to try games that have been redone with the Wiimote controls because it can often make for a much better game.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 07:55:41 AM
Quote
I've typically always bought games which were Nintendo-exclusives, but in the Wii's case, I'll be more than willing to try games that have been redone with the Wiimote controls because it can often make for a much better game.
But when has that happened?
Honestly, if the "new Nintendo fanboyism" is about praising any third party game even if it isn't completely deserved all for the sake of "optimism" how can we ever expect third parties to take Wii seriously and put their heavy hitters on the console? In that kind of environment third parties will just continue throwing ports or "Nintendo Crowd" (read: kiddy) games on the Wii and use the profits to fund their Metal Gears, Resident Evils, and Final Fantasies on other consoles. Any innovation and creativity will be relegated to titles like "Dewy's Adventure" while the Okamis and Oblivions and Shadow of the Colossus will go elsewhere.
I'll admit that not supporting these titles can lead to third parties believing that we don't want mature titles at all, so I'm considering buying Manhunt 2 even though I have absolutely no interest in it, but still...it's just so frustrating that at the moment we have to accept tittles as top notch that are met with indifference on other consoles (and rightfully so, because they get much better on a much more consistent basis). And Nintendo is partially to blame for creating this idea that Nintendo gamers only want kiddy games or games that feign innovation but are really just cartoons you control.
Quote
I'm not interested in GTA or any of its clones, but the idea of roughing people up with the Wii controls is intriguing, for an "I gotta see this..." reaction more than anything.
The idea of hitting someone in the face with an object using the wiimote in Godfather, or imitating chocking someone to death in Manhunt 2 is not going to get me on premise alone. I've played the Wii too much; I'm definitely past the novelty, "I gotta see this..." stage. Now I just want controls that undeniably work. Let's see how long that takes, because so far most developers haven't gotten that yet.
Post by: Jin-X on February 28, 2007, 08:21:42 AM
Some people can't buy a ton of games so they only buy the best, it's not necessarily that we need to broaden our horizons, I had all 3 consoles (and got a Dreamcast at launch), but when I see 3rd parties spewing the same rhetoric about Nintendo's market, it's proof that while the support is coming because of the gangbuster sales, they still don't get it.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 08:36:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
But when has that happened?
Splinter Cell: DA: aiming with the Wiimote VASTLY improved the game over analogue stick aiming.
DBZ:BT2: playing with the Wiimote and nunchuck was designed so doing the "Kamehamehama" actually involved you thrusting your hands forward at the same time. Made the game come alive like no other fighting game I've played.
CoD3: Wiimote aiming made the game much better than other iterations.
FarCry: Leaping over someone by flipping up on the nunchuck and then slashing them up with the Wiimote was so enjoyable it made the graphics forgivable.
Madden: Wii controls made the game FAR more engaging and fun.
I'm sure there are more examples than this, but this is all I've played so far.
Quote
Honestly, if the "new Nintendo fanboyism" is about praising any third party game even if it isn't completely deserved all for the sake of "optimism" how can we ever expect third parties to take Wii seriously and put their heavy hitters on the console?
That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?
There are only two options when it comes to development of games for a console:
1. Games sell well for their respective quality and devs bring more games to the console.
2. Games DON'T sell well and devs stop bringing games to the console.
There is no "buying crappy games is BAD!". It doesn't work that way: either the games sell or they don't. Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.
Developers REALIZE that better games push better numbers. No developer will last more than a year in the industry without understanding that quality in typically = sales out.
There's a REASON why developers like EA and Ubi are updating their games and making them look better (Medal of Honor and PoP): they understand that more people will buy the games if there is more development effort put into them.
Furthermore, this discussion has been done to DEATH: consoles receive sh*tty ports, they always HAVE and they always WILL receive sh*ttacular ports and its hidden amongst those ports that we find the gems which make the console worth owning.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 28, 2007, 08:52:53 AM
I think this is the sort of Wii game design that is going to age really fast. Waving your arms around is a novelty so it's fun now but it's going to get boring after too many "gesture" games come out and it all starts feeling the same. Games that make effective use of waving the remote around will likely have more legs but anything that just substitutes a button push with a gesture is going to get tiresome real quick.
"Splinter Cell: DA: aiming with the Wiimote VASTLY improved the game over analogue stick aiming."
I think this sort of remote usage is going to have more staying power due to it being a practical use of motion control and providing a level of functionality that a controller can't.
It's like when gaming first went 3D. Some games had legimately good design and made full use of 3D but some games relied too much on the initial "thrill" of 3D and have aged terribly as a result.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 08:59:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I think this is the sort of Wii game design that is going to age really fast. Waving your arms around is a novelty so it's fun now but it's going to get boring after too many "gesture" games come out and it all starts feeling the same. Games that make effective use of waving the remote around will likely have more legs but anything that just substitutes a button push with a gesture is going to get tiresome real quick.
No offense, but do you have a Wii yet? Have you handled the controller for an extensive period of time?
DBZ doesn't have you throwing every single punch and kick: it just has you using the rare special move where you make a similar gesture and actually makes the game very immersive, as does flicking the nunchuck forward to chase after someone you've just knocked across the screen.
I can't imagine anyone getting "tired" playing this game. You'd have to be so immensely out of shape that just getting up would be a laborious act.
Post by: Jin-X on February 28, 2007, 09:06:27 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 09:22:05 AM
Oh, and I couldn't stand the aiming in Splinter Cell: DA. Having to keep your wiimote centered all the time because moving it to any side changes the camera? Ugh! Worst application of pointer functionality ever! Who ever thought it was a good idea to force my hand to be suspended in midair in the exact same position forever!!!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 09:23:29 AM
CoD3 sold so well that EA wants a piece of the pie and is willing to spend some cash on prettying up the graphics, and while UbiSoft's FarCry may have been graphically deplorable, they're definitely trying to make amends.
This is the natural progression of things: we start with crappy games, then one 3rd party developer one-ups the others by making better graphics, gameplay, etc. and pretty soon 3rd parties realize that there are a set of standards when it comes to developing games on the console and, if they want their game to sell, they're going to have to at least adhere to those standards.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 09:24:13 AM
Quote
That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?
Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?
Quote
Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.
Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.
Quote
consoles receive sh*tty ports, they always HAVE and they always WILL receive sh*ttacular ports and its hidden amongst those ports that we find the gems which make the console worth owning.
Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.
Quote
we start with crappy games, then one 3rd party developer one-ups the others by making better graphics, gameplay, etc. and pretty soon 3rd parties realize that there are a set of standards when it comes to developing games on the console and, if they want their game to sell, they're going to have to at least adhere to those standards.
This I can agree with. It's going to take a third party saying, "You know what? We're going to take the Wii seriously" and making a big budget, exclusive Wii game that takes full advantage of the controls, gets stellar reviews, and has Wii gamers coming out in droves proving that we DO want mature games and makes every other third party developer feel absolutely foolish for not being the first (and even make Nintendo do a double-take and delay some of their games a few months).
Only thing is, how long are we gonna have to stand around tapping our feet waiting for that to happen?
Post by: Ian Sane on February 28, 2007, 09:24:16 AM
I mean tiresome in that you'll get tired OF playing it, not tired FROM playing it. Eventually the novelty of waving the remote around for what logically could be a button push will wear off. The future of the remote is in games that use it to do things that couldn't be done before, not games that are basically just "normal controller" games mapped to the remote.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 28, 2007, 09:32:51 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 09:35:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?
Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?
They're going to improve on their crap games for the only reason to improve period: to outsell other crap games. It's an arms race Pittboi. It's self-propogating.
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
Luckily, the Wii has enough of a userbase that people are buying the crap games as well.
Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.
With that mindset, then the the situation won't EVER change. You have to be LOOKING for something first before you can ever find it. If you never expect to find good third party games, then you'll never find any just as you predicted, and you'll be further marginalized, isolated, and eventually completely passed-over.
Great games don't just fall in your lap out of nowhere you know.
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.
Gems are so-called because no one expects them to be good, and some gamers are open-minded enough to see past the conventional wisdom that pre-judges their doom. It takes effort to find gems, and if you're not putting out any effort, then it's no surprise that you haven't found any.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 09:42:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
That's a contradiction in logic: if games sell so well on the Wii, then why send "heavy hitters" to other consoles?
Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?
Oh, what's that? EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii? And what's this? Gamers are actually excited and liking EA's efforts in everything from God Father to SSX to My Sims because they're actually technically proficient?!?!
Whatever are we to do? ... Wait! I know what! Make our games BETTERER than EA's! Ubisoft is going to be the NUMBER ONE publisher on the Wii and we're not about to let EA catch up with us!!!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 09:49:41 AM
Quote
Gems are so-called because no one expects them to be good, and some gamers are open-minded enough to see past the conventional wisdom that pre-judges their doom. It takes effort to find gems, and if you're not putting out any effort, then it's no surprise that you haven't found any.
You must have a bottomless wallet, then. I'm not poor, but at the same time I cannot afford to buy every Wii game in the hopes to find my own personal gem, and many gamers can't. You either fly blind or go by reviews. A lot of gamers rely on the hype, the stand out games that determine their next purchase. And the Wii doesn't have that stand out game yet outside of Nintendo's own offerings.
Jin had a good point. It's not always about broadening your horizons and stepping out of conventional wisdom. Sometimes it's about wise spending, and spending your hard earned money one what you KNOW(or at least have good faith) will be a good time.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 09:55:17 AM
Quote
EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?
Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 09:58:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi Because if you can get away with selling crap games well on the Wii, what's the point in wasting resources bringing good games to it? Why not save those precious dollars for the consoles that don't let you get away with crap ports as easily. Ubisoft posted a 78% increase in profit from their Wii offerings, despite the fact that most of the games they brought to the Wii were mediocre ports. With results like that why bother?
Did you look at the charts for UbiSoft? The sales of their games are numbered in order from best to worst in terms of sales, with Red Steel (a game built for the Wii) to some of their lesser ports like Monster 4X4.
UbiSoft has been around for too long and is too big of a company to not understand this very simple fact:
PORT = LOW SALES, (~30,000 UNITS)
NEW FRANCHISE = HIGH SALES (~300,000 UNITS)
MONEY talks, and in THIS case, MONEY says that Red Steel outsold all of the shoddy ports made for the Wii, COMBINED!
So with "results like that", I think it's pretty safe to say that Ubi WILL bother to continue bringing new IPs to the Wii.
Quote
Because that's really all there is from third parties. We have yet to get an undeniably good third party game. The story of the Wii's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties outside of Nintendo's own games. If you want games on the Wii, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.
Let's do some TIME TRAVELLING!!!!!!111!!!...shall we? Back we go to the year TWOOOO-THOUSAAAAANDDDDD...when a new console called the "Playstation 2" had just made its debut on the market.
Now watch what I'm going to do here, cause this is really special...ok?
The story of the PS2's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties. If you want games on the PS2, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.
And as we all know, the fact that the PS2 only had terrible ports and games from the previous system in its lineup destroyed its chances at ever succeeding.
Quote
Of course consoles will always receive sh*tty ports, but where are the Wii's gems? Outside of Nintendo's own games nothing tantalizingly interesting has even been announced yet.
Sorry, no.
I enjoyed Red Steel, Super Swing Golf, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Trauma Center, Rayman, Downhill Jam and CoD3 (and probably some others I'm forgetting).
I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.
But yeah, other than all of those games and the rest of the games that we don't even KNOW are in development yet, there's NOTHING ANNOUNCED FOR THE WII!!! THE WII IS DOOOOOOOOMED!!!!!! OMGWTFBBQ!!!
I'm sorry to be such a total prick, but I don't know how else to get through to you on this, Pit.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:00:12 AM
It's assumed that you'll buy the best games for your buck already. What we SHOULD be arguing about is how prejudices shape our gaming choices and that leads to more insular, more safe, and less "new" experiences.
And frankly, that's the exact same thinking process that third party publishers use when they make cheap and mediocre movies ports. They only go for the dependable, the predictable, the established. That's no way to make, or play, great games. They never risk, they never dare, and they end up never dreaming as well.
If you can't afford to buy a lot of risky games that's fine. But that doesn't mean the games that are beneath our budgets are beneath us.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:01:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?
Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).
It matters because Ubisoft announced their intention of beating EA and being number one FIRST. They've got a bit of a tiff going on between the two companies (I think EA tried to buy out Ubisoft sneakily or something) and this rivalry will lead to better efforts on the Wii.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:04:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.
Well... maybe not THAT one...
(But I can't wait for Wing Island as well, I'm eager to see how a non-violent flight action game works!)
Also, just realized that Pittboi's name can be shortened to Pit, and we can all hail him as the second coming of Icarus!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 10:09:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
EA publically announced that they want to be the biggest third party publisher on the Wii?
Why is this such a big deal to people? I could be wrong, but hasn't EA been the bissgest third party publisher on every significant console with the exception of the Dreamcast? Them announcing this for the Wii doesn't change anything, nor does Ubisoft announcing that they're going to top them. Again, I'll believe it when I see it (or see it announced).
It matters because Ubisoft announced their intention of beating EA and being number one FIRST. They've got a bit of a tiff going on between the two companies (I think EA tried to buy out Ubisoft sneakily or something) and this rivalry will lead to better efforts on the Wii.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Not to mention that EA seems to have stepped things up as well with Madden 07 and SSX Blur (which is exclusive). That to me is a great sign for 3rd party support, especially when you have dedicated team just for the Wii.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 28, 2007, 10:14:56 AM
I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon."
To me that seems like a really lousy lineup of third party games. I don't see anything in there for example that a PS3 or Xbox 360 owner would be upset that they don't get to play. Even the big names like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy are spinoffs. I don't see anything really significant there. Meaningful third party support is when a game is big enough that people that don't own the console are upset that they're missing out.
The Wii needs some big third party franchises to become Wii exclusive. And this is "main" series of games, not spin-offs. It needs to be the target console of developers that matter, that people actually care about. EA and Ubisoft don't mean squat. You need their support to survive but having their support is no big deal. It's expected and normal and even the most doomed hardware (like the N-Gage) has those devs on board. The Wii third party lineup is mostly scraps: multiplatform developers and spin-offs.
These lists of "good" games are eerily similar to such lists during the first few years of the Gamecube where weaksauce titles where being used as examples of "good" support.
When developers are talking about games made for a specific console's audience you're not getting healthy support. They shouldn't be considering anything like that. They should be considering ALL of their games as potential Wii games. You never heard Konami talk about making games "specially crafted for the PS2 audience". They didn't even talk about their support. They just made games and 90% of the time they were on the PS2.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:17:33 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 10:23:08 AM
Quote
Let's do some TIME TRAVELLING!!!!!!111!!!...shall we? Back we go to the year TWOOOO-THOUSAAAAANDDDDD...when a new console called the "Playstation 2" had just made its debut on the market.
Now watch what I'm going to do here, cause this is really special...ok?
The story of the PS2's life so far is bad ports or mixed reviews. It has yet to get something just spectacular from third parties. If you want games on the PS2, these are pretty much all you have to choose from.
And as we all know, the fact that the PS2 only had terrible ports and games from the previous system in its lineup destroyed its chances at ever succeeding.
1) The PS2 was the follow-up to the massively successful PSX (and it wasn't making nearly as many mistakes as the PS3).
2) The PS2 didn't launch with any incredible games, but you'd be kidding yourself if you think one the Machine's major selling points wasn't the DVD player, or the great third party games CONFIRMED for it (some of which were released within a year's time).
Quote
I enjoyed Red Steel, Super Swing Golf, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Trauma Center, Rayman, Downhill Jam and CoD3 (and probably some others I'm forgetting).
I anticipate that I will enjoy SSX Blur, Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07, The Godfather: Blackhand Edition, Medal of Honor: Vanguard, Wing Island, Kororinpa: Marble Mania, Bust-A-Move Bash! (8 player, WOOT!), Alien Syndrome, Manhunt 2, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Dragon Quest: Swords, Samurai Slash, Final Fantasy: Crystal Bearers, No More Heroes and Space Station Tycoon.
Samurai Slash? Wing Island? Are you kidding??? I'm more inclined to believe that you're just listing any title that comes to mind. Besides that, none of these games are really bringing the hype. I'm certain some of them will be fun in their own special way, and I'm personally excited from Crystal Bearers and--obviously--No More Heroes, but I still have to admit that the Wii doesn't have any hype-hording titles yet. Nothing gen-defining. Where are the epic games? Where are the RPGs (besides FE. I'm talking traditional)? Where are the big budget games developed from the ground up exclusively for Wii? Where are the games that truly do things with the wiimote that I couldn't do before with a standard controller or even that crappy SIXAXIS?
Basically, I agree with Ian. As I said earlier, most of those games sound like games that are damn near ignored on other consoles because there's much better out there. These are almost the kind of games that developers count on parents to buy their kids because they don't know better.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:28:35 AM
The games we're seeing now are results of development that started last E3 2006, back when the hype was still small and only a few devs had jumped on the bandwagon. With projects that take anywhere from 1 year to 2 and a half to finish, and most developers only catching on last... what, December, I think you're sort of a year too early asking where the games are today.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 10:29:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_BrotherI'm sorry to be such a total prick, but I don't know how else to get through to you on this, Pit.
I really hate to say this, since I respect Pittboi and Ian as people, but its pointless to argue about it.
It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.
At this rate, nothing can convince Pittboi and Ian that the Wii is getting some great support. The only thing that will change their mind is if Square released Final Fantasy XIV or Dragonquest X on the Wii, or if a third party releases one of their major franchises exclusively on the Wii.
Besides, the Wii is doing GREATLY and the third party support is rock solid. Its not like the rants of two hard to please fans will change it all.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:34:29 AM
The problem is that the questions being asked are VERY VALID, but their answers won't become evident until the mists of time have cleared away. Until then, impatience rules the roost and causes people to lay down edicts and mandates horribly prematurely.
We can theorize, we can predict, we can speculate on TRENDS, but anyone waiting for hard evidence one way or the other is going to have to be PATIENT.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 10:37:35 AM
Quote
At this rate, nothing can convince Pittboi and Ian that the Wii is getting some great support. The only thing that will change their mind is if Square released Final Fantasy XIV or Dragonquest X on the Wii, or if a third party releases one of their major franchises exclusively on the Wii.
Not true.
1) If good games with hype and an indication that the developers were going all out to make the games amazing were announced I would be happy.
2) If developers stopped using phrases like "for the wii crowd" when announcing games I would be happy.
3) If I weren't expected to praise mediocrity I would be happy.
4) If developers stopped having to exclude online options from the Wii versions of their games because of Nintendo's crappy structure I would be happy.
Basic desires, really.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:38:45 AM
I kid! I kid!
Honestly, I'd consider almost all of your points applicable to the PS3 too at this point.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 10:41:16 AM
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:42:00 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 28, 2007, 10:42:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi 1) The PS2 was the follow-up to the massively successful PSX (and it wasn't making nearly as many mistakes as the PS3).
The PS2 didn't sell 5,000,000 units in four months while still facing hardware shortages.
Quote
2) The PS2 didn't launch with any incredible games, but you'd be kidding yourself if you think one the Machine's major selling points wasn't the DVD player, or the great third party games CONFIRMED for it (some of which were released within a year's time).
The Wii has launched with some incredible games, and more to the point, software tie-in for the Wii is absolutely stunning, especially for a console with such a small library.
Quote
Samurai Slash? Wing Island? Are you kidding??? I'm more inclined to believe that you're just listing any title that comes to mind.
No, I went through a list and picked out games I figured I would enjoy. I only picked what I was interested in.
Quote
Besides that, none of these games are really bringing the hype.
Tell that to the fact that the media and Jack Thompson are already making a COLOSSAL stink about Manhunt 2.
And it's only going to get worse once a video of someone pantomiming a strangulation or gutting someone with a Wiimote shows up. Media...FRENZY.
Quote
Where are the big budget games developed from the ground up exclusively for Wii?
They're...being...developed. Do you realize that, as we speak, there are plans for games being put into production and moving forward that have not yet seen the light of day? Rockstar nonchalantly announced Manhunt 2 and it'll be out in 6-7 months. Every day, MORE games are being announced for the Wii.
Quote
Where are the games that truly do things with the wiimote that I couldn't do before with a wiimote or even that crappy SIXAXIS?
See, I almost told you off for the obvious fact that this is all subjective and that you'll just piss and moan about the games, saying how you don't like them and this, for some reason, makes them not count.
In that case, go buy a 360/PS3 and just stop posting on these forums, alright? The PS3 has some BIG "hype hoarding" games and, as we all know, hype ALWAYS makes games better.
So why don't you just save yourself (and us) the whining and GTFO out of the Nintendo camp already?
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 10:43:59 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 10:53:11 AM
Quote
Tell that to the fact that the media and Jack Thompson are already making a COLOSSAL stink about Manhunt 2.
You've really got to be kidding yourself if you believe the media and Jack Thompson are making such a huge stink about this game because of how good it's allegedly going to be and NOT just the violence and gore specifically.
Quote
See, I almost told you off for the obvious fact that this is all subjective and that you'll just piss and moan about the games, saying how you don't like them and this, for some reason, makes them not count.
It's an opposing opinion that's all subjective. You're taking the "OMG THIS IS GREAT" angle, and I'm quite skeptical. And the fact that in most game reviews controls are still a major point of contention seem to point out that I'm not entirely wrong for thinking the wiimote has yet to truly prove itself.
Quote
So why don't you just save yourself (and us) the whining and GTFO out of the Nintendo camp already?
Because I can still be a Nintendo fan and not kiss their ass every morning when I get out of bed. Because, as I said, as skeptical as I am of Nintendo right now I still subscribe to their gaming philosophy more than any other and the fact that I purchase their consoles and their games with my hard earned money entitles me to the right to hold them to the promises they make and the standards they set.
Edit:
Quote
They're...being...developed. Do you realize that, as we speak, there are plans for games being put into production and moving forward that have not yet seen the light of day? Rockstar nonchalantly announced Manhunt 2 and it'll be out in 6-7 months. Every day, MORE games are being announced for the Wii.
"They're being developed" was something I listened to with my N64 and my Gamecube...and we all see how that went. Turns out they weren't being developed.
I'm one of the few that believed Matt C when he said there were amazing games that he's seen and are coming (I seem to be in the minority on that). So I do have a measure of faith left in third parties in regards to the Wii. Patience is required, and trust me if I didn't have that I would have sold my Wii a long time ago. Keep in mind, however, that I'm purely speaking from what we KNOW right now. Nintendo's beat the optimism out of me over the years, so I prefer to talk about the things we know are coming and the announcements that have been made. And, from where we stand now, nothing BIG seems to be in the works yet, and it's a little distressing, because Nintendo definitely needs to keep their momentum up with the Wii. I do have faith in the GDC delivering a few juicy tidbits to keep us tied over until E3, which should be a major showing for whatever else Nintendo has up their sleeve.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 11:03:50 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 11:07:56 AM
Quote
I get the feeling Pittbboi whines just to whine.
Yeah, because there's no possible way that I could be dissatisfied as a Wii gamer at this point.
Quote
Not sure why Pit says that new Wii games that control similar to old Wii games is not good enough, that is like saying games on N64 that controlled like Mario 64 were not "Unique" enough.
Ummm...when did I say that?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 11:08:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.
Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 11:11:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.
Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.
Wow...how did I completely gloss over that?
Yeah, Pap, that's an extremely bad analogy...
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:11:59 AM
In fact, I'd think that as soon as we hand them our money, that simply provides positive feedback to the company saying that we support whatever it is they're doing. I don't think that money carries along with it explicit instructions on what exactly it is we liked aside from the product it was spent on.
In the end, that's what this whole thing boils down to: do we provide positive feedback or not? I, personally, feel that in this case we should subscribe to the Psychological theory of "Shaping behaviors," that is, rewarding successive increments of correct behavior until the entire complex behavior takes form. Nothing's going to appear out of the air on demand you know, pieces of the full action must be learned and rewarded so the complete behavior can take shape one bit at a time, through a series of baby steps.
Or... you know... we could just throw the whole lot of third party developers into the deep end of the pool, tell them "sink or swim" and abandon those who don't pass our strict litmus test to their drowning fate... *shrug*
A little... unforgiving, in my opinion.
~Carmine "Cai" M. red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 11:13:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: PittbboiQuote
I get the feeling Pittbboi whines just to whine.
Yeah, because there's no possible way that I could be dissatisfied as a Wii gamer at this point.Quote
Not sure why Pit says that new Wii games that control similar to old Wii games is not good enough, that is like saying games on N64 that controlled like Mario 64 were not "Unique" enough.
Ummm...when did I say that?
When you whine and complain about everything it gets to be more than just a dissatisfied Wii gamer. BTW I did misread what you said, regardless though am I the only one to think it is a tad bit ridiculous to compare Wii games to PS3 sixaxis games, when the sixaxis itself was a response to the Wii controller? It is like saying "Hey Mario 64, that game fails to live up to the potential of the N64 controller because you can do the same thing on Dual Shock" disregarding who developed the idea in the first place.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:16:58 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 11:18:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenixQuote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
It's like telling a devoted Christian that God doesn't exist; You could show them ACTUAL PROOF that all of their teachings are false and that there is no God and they would STILL insist that you are wrong. The only way they can change their mind is if they and only THEY open their minds and heart and learn to seek the truth or some phenomenal proof is shown to them that confirms that their beliefs are wrong.
Great job saying Christian's are the only people who do this, I'm sorry but people of all beliefs have closed minds on various issues. Not sure why you chose to bring up Christians in particular though. Personally I don't know if you intended it but I find this an insult, especially to someone like myself who was an atheist/agnostic all the way up until I was 17.
Yes, I used Christians as an example, but I didn't say ALL Christians, or religiously devoted people, are like that. I just used religion as an example of how sometimes personal beliefs are stronger than fact and the only way one can defeat the other is if those people are READY to open their hearts, souls and minds and take it all in.
Another reason I used Christianity was because all of my family members are devoted Christians since the beginning of 2006, I'm the religiously neutral one. I HIGHLY respect all forms of religious, and I even believe in many of them. I simply have differing opinions on the concept of the bible, Church and faith.
What I meant to say in that post is that people that are VERY true to their beliefs will be extremely hard to nudge our of their stance, unless they are ready and more than willing to be nudged.
This is the case with Ian and Pittboi, no matter how hard S_B and many others have tried to convince them otherwise they are dead set on being skeptical until the IT proof arrives.
I didn't mean to offend. Like I said, my family are devoted Christians and they have become BETTER people because of it and I am extremely grateful to God. But even my dad had the balls to sit up and ask WHY every once in a while.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:22:26 AM
I refuse to believe that we're like that, for us or them. If we're all so blind that nothing but the Shining Sun Searing our Silly Sideburns into Sausages would convince us its daytime, then we should all give up rigourous debate and discourse now!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 11:24:55 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'll congratulate Nintendo when I feel they're doing something right (which I do). And, honestly, I wouldn't own a Wii and be on these boards if I didn't think Nintendo had the potential to do more right than wrong. But, I definitely think Nintendo gamers fall on either side of a specific fence--those who love Nintendo so much that they're willing to take their word for it, and those who love Nintendo but have been burned too much in the past to take everything they say at face value. I definitely fall into the latter category. I want Nintendo to succeed, and I feel that the Wii has a better shot than the N64 and 'Cube, and it's partially that desire that makes me gruff when I feel they've drop the ball.
That and, well...a mediocre game is a mediocre game...
As for the SIXAXIS...no way in hell does it hold a candle to the wiimote, and I have never implied that. The wiimote itself has leagues more potential. However, I cannot say that I believe that developers have utilized that potential. So far it's been button-to-gesture mapping, and after hours upon hours with Wii Sports and Zelda and Rayman, I'm past the novelty. I'm ready for the innovation, the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:27:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.
Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 11:29:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
But aren't we the same way? Just other sides of the same coin?
I refuse to believe that we're like that, for us or them. If we're all so blind that nothing but the shining sun searing our silly sideburns into sausages would convince us its daytime, then we should all give up rigourous debate and discourse now!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
I don't believe it either, but sadly, there are people like that all over the world.
People DID believe that the earth was flat and when people it was really round people LAUGHED. It wasn't till the concrete proof was shown that people were finally convinced the earth was round.
That's how it is with some people, unless you show them the concrete proof or something major they will go on believing what they believe.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 11:31:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
the creativity that goes beyond the obvious "let's make this motion stand for this action" that Nintendo lead us to believe the wiimote is capable of, and that I still believe it is capable of.
Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Well it should be interesting to see if developers can figure out a way around this. Regardless I think the Wii has already shown tons of potential to revolutionize FPS controls and aiming in general, and that in itself is a major positive. Maybe someone can clear this up, but is it even possible to have quick motions be read at all by the "sensor" bar? Because when you move quickly up and down it seems to be way too fast for it to register positioning.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ian Sane on February 28, 2007, 11:36:13 AM
If the Wii continues to sell as well as it is then I agree. The games will come if the userbase is large but right now the actual third party offerings just aren't that hot.
The religious comparison is pushing it a little too close to going against forum rules. Quality of third party games is subjective anyway so you can't really prove things one way or another anyway (much like religious discussions as both sides usually offer what they see as proof). Plus if anything I'd switch things around as Nintendo devoutees seem more likely to demonstrate blind faith. On a Nintendo related board anything resembling a negative opinion towards Nintendo is the radical approach.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 11:39:52 AM
Quote
Funny... I'm the first type of fan you mentioned and I feel like you're just taking their word for it that this exists... do you KNOW how the wiimote works? It's completely BLIND to 3D space! BLIND I TELL YOU!
The wiimote is my one exception. I has to be because it's what's SELLING the Wii right now. And there's no denying that Nintendo itself originally led us to believe the wiimote is capable of more than its currently been used for.
I still believe that the wiimote is capable of some real-time sword fighting, mouse-like accuracy and motion detection. I just think that it's taking developers time to tap into that because:
1) They're lazy and know that the Wii is still new enough that they can simply exploit the novelty of it with tacked on controls. This is what pisses me off.
2) The wiimote is legitimately difficult to program for. More so than any other controller I can think of. You almost have to spend just as much time on the controls as you would on a typical game engine. However, I think that the more time developers have with the wiimote and the more developer tools get released specifically for it (another wiimote programming tool was released just a few days ago, I believe). The easier it'll be for developers to reach the wiimote's full potential.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 11:43:44 AM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 11:45:56 AM
Yes it was a daring comparison and I knew some would be annoyed by it, but I explained why I used it and the meaning behind it. I already said I didn't mean to offend, that I was using it as an example how sometimes subjective beliefs tend to be far stronger than fact and that in order to change it you need an equal or stronger fact and the will of accepting new ideas.
In Pitt and Ian's case, their subjective beliefs are stronger than the facts mentioned in other rebuttals. The only way they can change is when the proof because even stronger than it is right now.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 11:56:58 AM
The one thing that bothers me is that Nintendo's main purpose for the wiimote was to create easy, pick up and play experiences, and that was touted as being a major ace by Nintendo fans. And yet, so far, most games have proven to be anything but. Every mediocre/bad review of a Wii game that I've read usually spends a good deal of time criticizing the controls. And the usual response to that is "well, obviously these guys suck and didn't take the time to learn the controls." But, if it's true that most reviews don't get written until the reviewer plays through all or most of the game...if they didn't pick up the controls by then...well doesn't that still mean that wiimote isn't fulfilling its pick up and play purpose, whether or not the reviewer sucks? Heck, my friends and family all love Wii Bowling, by far the most played game on my Wii. And STILL after all this time I get that dumb "oops" message more often than I'd like, and more than once members of my family have put down the controller in frustration.
I still believe that the controller is capable of more, but one thing I said on these boards before the Wii was released was that, after playing the Wii at the Fusion Tour, I didn't think the wiimote was going to be any easier to use than a regular controller. It was going to be difficult in it's own way. So far I seem to be right.
Post by: ShyGuy on February 28, 2007, 12:01:16 PM
I still don't have my third party list!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 12:03:43 PM
Personally I think Nintendo is illustrating what they said about it not being as complex as a gamepad with games like WarioWare, Wii play, Excite Truck and Wiiplay, all of which are easy to grasp, while adding more complexity in games that are aimed at more the "hardcore" crowd.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 12:11:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Heck, my friends and family all love Wii Bowling, by far the most played game on my Wii. And STILL after all this time I get that dumb "oops" message more often than I'd like, and more than once members of my family have put down the controller in frustration.
I think you're laying the blame in the wrong place there. That problem is COMPLETELY dependent on when you let go of the B button.
The need for simple games is why I'm waiting for titles like Wii Music, or Space Station Tycoon. You won't find complex games becoming all of a sudden two button affairs, but generally you'll get mouse-like simplicity that'll be MUCH more appealing to casual gamers and the only thing that can draw in non-gamers.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 12:11:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
The Wii controller is easier to use than the normal, multi button controller, DEPENDING ON THE GAME. Wii sports is definately an easy pick up and play game, that anyone from the age to 5 to 80 can play with little instruction, it is just intuitive and not a dauting task that game pads offer people who haven't played many games. On other games though, the ones not made for the "casual" or "non gamer" crowd, can be complex adding even more to the immersion, it just depends on who the game is aimed at.
Personally I think Nintendo is illustrating what they said about it not being as complex as a gamepad with games like WarioWare, Wii play, Excite Truck and Wiiplay, all of which are easy to grasp, while adding more complexity in games that are aimed at more the "hardcore" crowd.
I agree. I've been playing Wii Sports nonstop (mainly because I don't have anything else to play :p) and I noticed that the more I play it, the more complex it gets. For example, in the harder levels how to swing the bat is integral to hit those tricky balls in Baseball, getting the high scores in all the training games require a lot of timing and patience and while the controls need fixing Boxing requires a lot of strategy to win.
It adds complexity since the motion lies all in the player's hand, not button combinations. In other words, your precise movement is far more vital than how quick you can hit a button.
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 12:13:04 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 12:16:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
Wii Sports IS quite complex. It's really surprising!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
The game is VERY easy to get into. Like Golden mentioned, everyone from ages 5 to 90 can pick up the controller and play since the concept is easy to grasp. However, like real sports, the more you get into it the more the complexity shows, making it a game of skill and talent.
Post by: Pittbboi on February 28, 2007, 12:16:58 PM
Guess I should say this was Nintendo's way of selling sports games on the Wii?
Post by: Kairon on February 28, 2007, 12:42:30 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2007, 02:30:25 PM
... I'm sick of third parties. They either screw us over with crap games, screw Nintendo over with "exclusives" that show up on the other systems or, on the off occasion that they actually don't screw us over and we buy crap-tons of copies of their games, they go and take a money hat from Sony and make Soul Caliber 3 a PS2 exclusive.
I have no plans to show any third party "support" for the sake of thorwing them support. I'll buy the games I want because I want them and that's that. If third parties want me to buy their games, then they should make games I want on the system I want them on. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to give Nintendo my money - as we've already seen with two previous generations, Nintendo can do a pretty good job at keeping their own console alive and kicking with their own exclusives...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 03:05:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
"I didn't read through this entire post, but...."
... I'm sick of third parties. They either screw us over with crap games, screw Nintendo over with "exclusives" that show up on the other systems or, on the off occasion that they actually don't screw us over and we buy crap-tons of copies of their games, they go and take a money hat from Sony and make Soul Caliber 3 a PS2 exclusive.
I have no plans to show any third party "support" for the sake of thorwing them support. I'll buy the games I want because I want them and that's that. If third parties want me to buy their games, then they should make games I want on the system I want them on. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to give Nintendo my money - as we've already seen with two previous generations, Nintendo can do a pretty good job at keeping their own console alive and kicking with their own exclusives...
Someone's a little bitter about this...
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 03:11:25 PM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 03:13:24 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 03:29:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
And as much as I think Elebits is overhyped it is worth a rental at least, just in case it is your type of game.
Can't believe I forgot about Elebits, overhyped my butt. It is the most underhyped game in HISTORY
Post by: NWR_pap64 on February 28, 2007, 04:22:08 PM
I agree with some of the stuff he said, but he is too bitter about what is essentially a business practice.
Third party companies develop because of one thing: MONEY
It's true that many developers make games for the love of it, and some of the best games ever were the best because a lot of passion was put into them. But its hard to DENY that the companies that supports them wants something in return, and that is money. They put a lot of money into these games so its obvious they want something back, especially in greater numbers.
UB, I think you are being way too harsh on third parties since nearly all of them were just acting rationally.
Even though Sony and MS helped create a kiddy image its hard to deny that Nintendo also did some damage to themselves, being uber strict with third parties, being the hardest to develop for and being stubborn about doing their own thing (something that fans STILL criticize today).
So do a little thinking, if you were a third party developer would you:
A) Develop for a console that has a great company backing it up but has a low userbase
B) Developer for a console that has a great userbase and thus its guaranteed that they will buy your game
That's what developers were doing during the PS2 and XBOX era. They went to the consoles with the highest userbase, the gold mine so to speak.
Now, its clear that the gold mine are the Nintendo DS and the Wii, so now developers are flocking to both systems in hopes of getting some.
This is why we have Square back with Nintendo, plenty of third parties offering ports and many games being canceled for the PS3.
Also, don't underestimate the power of third party games. The PS empire was built upon the highest collection of third party games ever created, including the mighty Final Fantasy games. In many cases, these third party games outsold Nintendo's first party games. This is why we had Reggie going to Rockstar, Nintendo offering developing kits to all sorts of people and providing easy to learn tools; they know that the more developers they support the jackpot will eventually be hit.
As mentioned many a time; lots of third party games=variety=lots of fans buying the system.
It's true that the 1st party games helped Nintendo survive through the N64 and GC eras, but I doubt they would've lasted another one if they had stayed with their GC strategy.
Its OK if you don't want to buy the third party games. No one is forcing you to. But that doesn't mean you should diss the games, the companies and even the fans that enjoy them. Its true that many support the games for the hell of supporting them, but MANY of us simply want to play a good game. We want to look for experiences outside Nintendo and chances are we will find them in a third party game.
So if you can't stand that, too bad.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on February 28, 2007, 06:13:24 PM
Post by: UncleBob on March 01, 2007, 01:00:07 AM
Post by: MaryJane on March 01, 2007, 02:38:59 AM
rool::UB you can support 3rd party games without buying them. I'm not going to buy My Sims but I know my friends gf plays the sims for PC so next time I see her I'm going to mention how the Wii is getting the game and its supposed to be really good.
The more 3rd party games the Wii sells the more 3rd part games the Wii will get. Like these so-called "heavy hitters" personally I like disteaction games like Wii Sports and Manhunt, just play for five to twenty minutes while waiting to be picked up to go out, or your pizza delivery. You can't do that with games like Zelda, or at least I can't.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 01, 2007, 02:48:31 AM
I don't hold anything against third parties, they did whatever they felt was best for them these last two generations...but like UncleBob, I won't go out of my way to buy their products...I buy what looks interesting to me.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 03:45:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
You've really got to be kidding yourself if you believe the media and Jack Thompson are making such a huge stink about this game because of how good it's allegedly going to be and NOT just the violence and gore specifically.
So you want a hyped game but you admit hyped games suck?
Make up your mind.
Quote
It's an opposing opinion that's all subjective. You're taking the "OMG THIS IS GREAT" angle, and I'm quite skeptical. And the fact that in most game reviews controls are still a major point of contention seem to point out that I'm not entirely wrong for thinking the wiimote has yet to truly prove itself.
Are you kidding? The second I swung and hit a tennis ball in Wii Sports, the Wiimote proved itself. The first time I came around a corner in Red Steel and put a bullet through a guy's head with a split second flick of my wrist, the Wiimote proved itself.
This is what I'm talking about: you and Ian both are holding the Wii to some ridiculously high standards and it seems to be from some personal vendetta against Nintendo because you haven't yet seen this magical game announced which is somehow going to "prove the Wiimote" in your eyes.
I'm skeptical, too, but only when the situation genuinely calls for skepticism. I've pored over Nintendo's situation multiple times and I can see precious little which says to me that Nintendo has ANYWHERE to go but UP.
The two biggest developers in the world, EA and Ubi, are starting a pissing contest to see who can provide the best Wii support. How do you just DISMISS that? Because you don't like their games? Congrats, but the rest of the world DOES.
Quote
Because I can still be a Nintendo fan and not kiss their ass every morning when I get out of bed.
I'm not kissing Nintendo's ass: I'm stating the reality of the situation. Despite a bizarre name, despite a weird controller and despite hardware shortages because Nintendo can't predict or meet demand worth a damn, Nintendo is still doing insanely well right now. That's not a wish, that's an OBSERVATION.
Quote
Because, as I said, as skeptical as I am of Nintendo right now I still subscribe to their gaming philosophy more than any other and the fact that I purchase their consoles and their games with my hard earned money entitles me to the right to hold them to the promises they make and the standards they set.
Promises NINTENDO makes?!? You're b*tching about a LACK OF 3RD PARTY SUPPORT, FFS!
Nintendo itself will be delivering plenty of excellent games, and 3rd parties are, despite what you think, rapidly warming to the console, but to somehow believe that you can hold NINTENDO responsible for what 3rd parties do? Huh?
Quote
I'm one of the few that believed Matt C when he said there were amazing games that he's seen and are coming (I seem to be in the minority on that). So I do have a measure of faith left in third parties in regards to the Wii.
Actually, I think the rest of us are all well aware that more great games we didn't know about are coming. It's just that we didn't need Matt to tell us.
Quote
Patience is required, and trust me if I didn't have that I would have sold my Wii a long time ago. Keep in mind, however, that I'm purely speaking from what we KNOW right now. Nintendo's beat the optimism out of me over the years, so I prefer to talk about the things we know are coming and the announcements that have been made. And, from where we stand now, nothing BIG seems to be in the works yet, and it's a little distressing, because Nintendo definitely needs to keep their momentum up with the Wii. I do have faith in the GDC delivering a few juicy tidbits to keep us tied over until E3, which should be a major showing for whatever else Nintendo has up their sleeve.
Ok, but understand that the amount of complaining you're doing seems to suggest that you aren't keen on practicing patience in this regard.
The Wii is 3-4 months old and Nintendo has already announced a plethora of games for it. We'll be seeing MP3, SMG, SSBB, Super Paper Mario and Fire Emblem this year alone. That's a pretty decent lineup out of Nintendo, but beyond that, what more do you expect? They've made the Wii as appealing as possible for 3rd parties to develop for and it IS rapidly starting to show.
The point is, Nintendo has done what they have to do. If you want to be angry at someone/thing, start sending emails to 3rd parties asking them why they're not supporting the Wii yet.
The console is selling like wildfire, has an awesome tie-in ratio and is easy to develop for. The ball is SQUARELY in the court of the 3rd parties now.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 01, 2007, 04:10:56 AM
Not making fun of it or anything, but I felt that was very intuitive and made it look like I was truly touching something.
But what really convinced me that the Wiimote was special was when my 50+ year old mother grabbed and started playing Wii Sports with me and S_B.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2007, 04:51:10 AM
What facts? Someone says that the Wii third party support currently is really good and then lists a bunch of titles that I view as largely insignificant. While it is factual that those games are coming out and it is factual that Ubisoft and EA are on board whether that support is good or bad is open to debate.
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on March 01, 2007, 05:19:56 AM
Also its always inevitable if some of those games end up being crappy hell even Nintendo publishes some games that are considered to be mediocre or poor so I think people are being hard asses about that. And in my opinion the dought spots on Wii are little to none since the third parties and the virtual console content are keeping everybody busy. And the gaps between Nintendo games aren't that severe.
Heatseeker also looks pretty fun.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 05:22:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane While it is factual that those games are coming out and it is factual that Ubisoft and EA are on board whether that support is good or bad is open to debate.
What...?
There has NEVER been bad support for a console maker.
Even the most perverted or controversial games have never tainted the console they were developed for. If that were the case, the PS2 would have failed because of the controversy surrounding GTA.
Support is good. It's ALWAYS good. It can't NOT Be good. If it's one more reason, however small, for a potential customer to own your console, then it's good for the console, largely because those reasons add up over time.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 01, 2007, 05:30:17 AM
Quote
So you want a hyped game but you admit hyped games suck?
Make up your mind.
Are you serious?
These are completely different types of hype here. I'm talking about the kind of hype a game gets because everything about it screams that it's going to be a great experience. The "OMG I can't wait until this game comes out it's going to be so awesome!" type of hype. Nintendo's games get this kind of hype. Jack Thompson isn't a gamer, the type of hype he's generating for Manhunt 2 has nothing to do with how good it's going to be. The funk he's causing over the game is purely over how violent it is. That's completely different, and says nothing about how good the game might be.
Quote
Are you kidding? The second I swung and hit a tennis ball in Wii Sports, the Wiimote proved itself. The first time I came around a corner in Red Steel and put a bullet through a guy's head with a split second flick of my wrist, the Wiimote proved itself.
This is what I'm talking about: you and Ian both are holding the Wii to some ridiculously high standards and it seems to be from some personal vendetta against Nintendo because you haven't yet seen this magical game announced which is somehow going to "prove the Wiimote" in your eyes.
WiiSports, for me, proved the potential of the wiimote. It proved to me that Nintendo was right in investing so much in it. WiiSports was fun and quirky, but I would be lying if I said I would be satisfied if the height of the wiimote's potential had already been reached with the game that came with the system. I would be lying if I said I would be satisfied with how the wiimote's been applied to FPSs. As it stands now, the wiimote is far from perfect.
Nintendo said that there would be a revolution in gaming, and that they were going to be the cause of it. Well, they're off to a nice start, but if you think that I'm supposed to be completely satisfied with simple "point here" and "swing the wiimote like a racket, nifty huh?" controls, you're wrong. I'm waiting until I see some truly innovative controls that move beyond the obvious novelty and doesn't get mixed reviews on how well they work before I say the wiimote's completely proved itself to me.
Quote
The two biggest developers in the world, EA and Ubi, are starting a pissing contest to see who can provide the best Wii support. How do you just DISMISS that?
But what does that MEAN? That's what I and more than a few people fear. I don't feel I'm wrong for a taking a "let's wait and see" approach while everyone else is, once again, dancing around the maypole over an announcement that could mean squat. People did it with the Cube; people did it when Ubisoft announced all those titles for the wii that turned out to be pretty bad. Even I got briefly excited over news of a new EA IP for the Wii, but that pretty much sunk when I saw the words "for the Wii crowd" and "sunshine".
I just want to see that third parties are taking the wii more seriously than the Cube. I've said this before, it's good that they're giving more games to the Wii, but when it comes right down to it they're the same games they gave the Cube. Safe, 'can port them anywhere' games that require no real risk and thus contain no real innovation. The highest gain for the lowest input. This is good for sheer numbers, but geez, the wiimote wasn't meant for simply having PS2 controls mapped to it. And I love my Wii to death, but if we get another mini-game game or "tilt the world to roll the monkeyball/marble/water drop" game I'm going to scream.
When I see a game that gets announced to as much fanfare as Redsteel did, I'll be more than happy. Something that shows the developers don't just want to have the most crap titles on the system, but are now willing to put some seriously power behind it. Haven't seen that yet, and i know the Wii is still young, but frankly...how long are we supposed to wait for even an announcement? Even the PS3, being as young as the Wii and with all it's problems, has handful of high profile games in the works for it that people KNOW are coming.
Quote
Nintendo itself will be delivering plenty of excellent games, and 3rd parties are, despite what you think, rapidly warming to the console, but to somehow believe that you can hold NINTENDO responsible for what 3rd parties do? Huh?
I can hold Nintendo responsible because they waited until the last possible minute to give developers the tools to even develop for the system, for holding so steadfast to an online structure that is universally hated by all, and only RECENTLY getting out tools to develop for that structure.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 01, 2007, 05:40:59 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 01, 2007, 05:45:43 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 06:01:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
These are completely different types of hype here. I'm talking about the kind of hype a game gets because everything about it screams that it's going to be a great experience. The "OMG I can't wait until this game comes out it's going to be so awesome!" type of hype. Nintendo's games get this kind of hype. Jack Thompson isn't a gamer, the type of hype he's generating for Manhunt 2 has nothing to do with how good it's going to be. The funk he's causing over the game is purely over how violent it is. That's completely different, and says nothing about how good the game might be.
And like I said earlier, if you have a problem with it, b*tch to 3rd parties. MP3 is hype inducing. SMG is hype inducing. And like it or not, DQ: Swords is going to lay down a SH*TLOAD of hype, especially in Japan where they're genetically incapable of not buying DQ games.
Quote
Nintendo said that there would be a revolution in gaming, and that they were going to be the cause of it. Well, they're off to a nice start, but if you think that I'm supposed to be completely satisfied with simple "point here" and "swing the wiimote like a racket, nifty huh?" controls, you're wrong. I'm waiting until I see some truly innovative controls that move beyond the obvious novelty and doesn't get mixed reviews on how well they work before I say the wiimote's completely proved itself to me.
So you expected the Wii remote to reach its full potential in 4 months of release? That's the most unrealistic expectation I've ever seen.
You can't honestly tell me that you expected the change to come about in this short of a time? The analogue stick took a lot longer for people to truly wrap their games around it.
But on the subject, MP3 is coming, SMG is coming and we know both of these games will heavily rely upon the Wiimote and will quite possibly "prove the concept".
The point is, if you have immensely unrealistic expectations, you're never going to be happy and expecting that Nintendo will revolutionize the industry in 4 months is completely unrealistic.
Quote
I just want to see that third parties are taking the wii more seriously than the Cube.
They are. The cube didn't have this much 3rd party support and no one was opening new dev houses to focus on the cube.
This sh*t takes TIME. EA, Ubi and Disney are shifting focus to the Wii now, but in 6-8 months, we'll start seeing the results of those efforts. It's not going to happen overnight. It didn't happen that way for the PS2 and it won't happen that way for the Wii, and complaining about it isn't going to solve anything.
Quote
When I see a game that gets announced to as much fanfare as Redsteel did, I'll be more than happy. Something that shows the developers don't just want to have the most crap titles on the system, but are now willing to put some seriously power behind it. Haven't seen that yet, and i know the Wii is still young, but frankly...how long are we supposed to wait for even an announcement? Even the PS3, being as young as the Wii and with all it's problems, has handful of high profile games in the works for it that people KNOW are coming.
Those were games which were promised before the infamous Sony press conference, and like I said, Square and Konami are being heavily rumored to porting those games.
Quote
I can hold Nintendo responsible because they waited until the last possible minute to give developers the tools to even develop for the system, for holding so steadfast to an online structure that is universally hated by all, and only RECENTLY getting out tools to develop for that structure.
Ok, sure, but that's not what you've been complaining about the last three pages. Your complaints have primarily been directed at the lack of games which appeal to you personally.
Post by: Pittbboi on March 01, 2007, 06:16:30 AM
Quote
And like it or not, DQ: Swords is going to lay down a SH*TLOAD of hype, especially in Japan where they're genetically incapable of not buying DQ games.
I'm personally looking forward to DQ: Swords, but I doubt that it's going to lay down much hype in the States, where DQ has largely been an overlooked series.
Quote
So you expected the Wii remote to reach its full potential in 4 months of release? That's the most unrealistic expectation I've ever seen.
Again, I've never expected the wiimote to reach that level in four months. Never even implied that. But, in four months time we should have at least heard of third party games that WILL be using the wiimote to its potential in the future. Hell, we should have been hearing about that BEFORE the console even launched, but I can pardon third parties for that because the fault lies with Nintendo for not having their sh*t together and giving third parties the tools they need.
Quote
Those were games which were promised before the infamous Sony press conference, and like I said, Square and Konami are being heavily rumored to porting those games.
Yeah, to the 360 and PC. I'm not pimping the PS3 here by using it as an example; whether or not these titles stay exclusive to PS3 is, unfortunately, of no consequence to me because they're definitely not being ported to the Wii (the Wii just couldn't handle them without serious, experience-compromising, downgrading). So either way I'd have to go elsewhere if I wanted to play them.
Quote
Your complaints have primarily been directed at the lack of games which appeal to you personally.
Well, this is a thread about third parties.
I only include Nintendo because yes, I feel that they could be doing a little more to attract third parties, but mostly I'm lamenting the lack of quality third party support. And it goes beyond my personal tastes. Where are the RPGs? Mature, epic platforms? Genres Nintendo STILL can drum up third party interest for.
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 07:38:36 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Where are the RPGs? Mature, epic platforms? Genres Nintendo STILL can drum up third party interest for.
On the 360, believe it or not.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 07:40:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi I'm personally looking forward to DQ: Swords, but I doubt that it's going to lay down much hype in the States, where DQ has largely been an overlooked series.
I think Manhunt 2 WILL bring that hype in the states. Like I said, once a video hits with someone using a Wiimote and nunchuck to murder people, then the violent game crowd will go INSANE, and the violent gamer crowd is a large part of the US market.
And in the states, games which spur controversy outsell games like FF and MGS. All three of the next gen GTAs outsold even the highest selling FF and MGS games.
My guess is that Rockstar knows the GTA series has kinda seen its peak of controversy. How much further can they go? Also, there are a plethora of GTA clones out there.
Since they're a company that thrives on controversy, where can they go next? What can they do to one-up the stir that GTA3 created? How about twisting a knife into someone's back with a Wiimote or sawing someone's head off? How about crushing a skull with a nunchuck?
I think this will be their goal, and despite the media outcry, I expect the violent gamer crowd in the US to eat it right up.
Quote
Again, I've never expected the wiimote to reach that level in four months. Never even implied that. But, in four months time we should have at least heard of third party games that WILL be using the wiimote to its potential in the future. Hell, we should have been hearing about that BEFORE the console even launched, but I can pardon third parties for that because the fault lies with Nintendo for not having their sh*t together and giving third parties the tools they need.
From everything I heard, it was an unwillingness to try new things which steered most 3rd parties away from the Wii. Ubisoft was the exception and the fact that they're now making money hand over fist is no doubt rallying many companies to offer Wii support.
But like I said, this stuff takes time, and again, your views on what "WILL be using the wiimote to its potential" are too subjective to quantify, really.
Godfather will use the pointer to aim, the Wiimote to reload, and a combination of the mote and chuck to perform all sorts of violent maneuvers, like beating people up, choking them and throwing them off buildings.
If I asked your average teenager, he'd say THAT is the full potential because it sells him most on a game.
So what would your definition of "full potential" be?
Quote
Yeah, to the 360 and PC. I'm not pimping the PS3 here by using it as an example; whether or not these titles stay exclusive to PS3 is, unfortunately, of no consequence to me because they're definitely not being ported to the Wii (the Wii just couldn't handle them without serious, experience-compromising, downgrading). So either way I'd have to go elsewhere if I wanted to play them.
I have to disagree about experience compromising downgrading, but again, how is this Nintendo's fault? You're lamenting the fact that these franchises aren't on the Wii. Ok, but there's no one to blame for this except Square and Konami. Like I said, write them emails if you love these franchises so much.
Also, you might want to wait until these games are ACTUALLY out before you complain that the Wii has nothing to match them. We don't know what will happen between now and then.
Quote
I only include Nintendo because yes, I feel that they could be doing a little more to attract third parties, but mostly I'm lamenting the lack of quality third party support. And it goes beyond my personal tastes. Where are the RPGs? Mature, epic platforms? Genres Nintendo STILL can drum up third party interest for.
The only other thing Nintendo could do to attract 3rd parties is start shelling out moneyhats.
Beyond that, they've given them a new, innovative control scheme, a console which is cheap and easy to develop for, spaced out releases of 1st party titles so as not to snuff 3rd party successes, NO requirements for HD content and a growing userbase for a console which they can't keep on the shelves fast enough.
Believe me when I say that the ball is in the court of 3rd parties and if they decide to not support the Wii, they'll be missing out, bigtime.
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 07:46:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
I'm not "dissing" third parties or their fans, per say. I'm just saying that I'm sick of this "If you want third party support, you have to buy their games, even if they're crap." additude that some people have. Like I said in the eariler post - if a third party wants me to buy their game, they simply have to make a *good* game on a system that I want it on. I don't think that's too much to ask.
We're not saying you have to buy the game. We're saying you have to give it a chance insteasd of dismissing it outright and having your eyes simply glaze over when you see it on the shelf. Nintendo gamers are WAY too used to seeing only Nintendo games, and that sort of prejudice at the store shelf is bad for gaming, bad for business, bad for third parties, and even bad for Nintendo.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 01, 2007, 07:54:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
I'm not "dissing" third parties or their fans, per say. I'm just saying that I'm sick of this "If you want third party support, you have to buy their games, even if they're crap." additude that some people have. Like I said in the eariler post - if a third party wants me to buy their game, they simply have to make a *good* game on a system that I want it on. I don't think that's too much to ask.
We're not saying you have to buy the game. We're saying you have to give it a chance insteasd of dismissing it outright and having your eyes simply glaze over when you see it on the shelf. Nintendo gamers are WAY too used to seeing only Nintendo games, and that sort of prejudice at the store shelf is bad for gaming, bad for business, bad for third parties, and even bad for Nintendo.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Well said, Kai.
Here's the math that explains it:
Low third party sales=loss of profit for third parties
Loss of profit on a Nintendo console=Little to no support for Nintendo
No support for Nintendo=A Nintendo console with very little game variety
No games=Displeased fans
Displeased fans=No support for Nintendo
No support for Nintendo=Low profits for Nintendo
Low profits=A dark future for Nintendo
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 08:09:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon We're not saying you have to buy the game. We're saying you have to give it a chance insteasd of dismissing it outright and having your eyes simply glaze over when you see it on the shelf. Nintendo gamers are WAY too used to seeing only Nintendo games, and that sort of prejudice at the store shelf is bad for gaming, bad for business, bad for third parties, and even bad for Nintendo.
This is why I recommend Gamefly: rent these games with little risk that they'll suck.
I've found quite a few 3rd party games to be pretty decent and worth the time to play them. You're robbing yourself of some fun experiences if you outright ignore them.
Post by: UncleBob on March 01, 2007, 08:10:45 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
I'm not "dissing" third parties or their fans, per say. I'm just saying that I'm sick of this "If you want third party support, you have to buy their games, even if they're crap." additude that some people have. Like I said in the eariler post - if a third party wants me to buy their game, they simply have to make a *good* game on a system that I want it on. I don't think that's too much to ask.
We're not saying you have to buy the game. We're saying you have to give it a chance insteasd of dismissing it outright and having your eyes simply glaze over when you see it on the shelf. Nintendo gamers are WAY too used to seeing only Nintendo games, and that sort of prejudice at the store shelf is bad for gaming, bad for business, bad for third parties, and even bad for Nintendo.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Third parties have no one to blame but themselves on this. Look at Super Monkey Ball - after One and Two, I figured I'd buy any game with the Monkey Ball name on it. (Hell, I even have Monkey Ball action figures!). Then SEGA goes and throws crap out there like the DS game and Super Monkey Ball Adventure and now I refused to touch Banana Blitz with a ten foot pole.
Don't give me Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heros and expect me to get excited because you announce a new Sonic game. I can only be burned so many times before I realize that the limited gaming time and money I have is better spent elsewhere.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2007, 08:27:11 AM
Should I say "not great support" instead? Or "weak support"? What wording do you deem appropriate for third party support that just isn't all that hot? Obviously I think third party support of any kind is better than none at all. But in general I don't think the support the Wii is getting is that great yet. It certainly isn't at a point where I would say that things are fine as is as we don't have to worry about everything.
Square Enix's interest is good but we still haven't had a really major title annouced for the Wii from them yet. Spinoffs don't matter. When a REAL Final Fantasy game is annouced as an exclusive then we're getting somewhere. It's like how when they annouced the new REAL Dragon Quest game was going to the DS. That was a big deal.
SNK is on board which is great and they seem to want to focus on the Wii. They're not a top level third party but their support is significant none the less. They make good games and have a hardcore fanbase so they'll be good as one of those niche hardcore developers that makes games that a group of hardcore gamers really likes but lacks major selling power. Stuff like this is always great because it forces fans of the company to climb on board. The original Playstation really benefited from having all sorts of hardcore genres and franchises locked up. That sort of thing provides true variety. It's what "something for everyone" really means, unlike Nintendo's "make everything kid friendly" approach.
Tecmo and Konami seem reasonably interested but we haven't got anything really big annouced from them yet. Konami's most anticipated game is in the works for the PS3.
Capcom seems quite sour on the Wii which sucks.
Ubisoft and EA are really interested but they release games on every platform so it's not that big of a deal. No one buys a console for EA or Ubisoft games. Fans of those types of games buy the market leader because they just assume that Madden or Splinter Cell is going to show up on it. I guess in this case the Wii will benefit because it's selling so well. But without other third parties the Wii won't be able to keep it's momentum. It still has to beat the Xbox 360 in North America for EA and Ubisoft type gamers to choose the Wii as their main console.
Manhunt 2 is very promising but we still need to see how far that goes. We need GTA. We need some serious attention from Rockstar. But just having their support at all is a big improvement.
Virtua Fighter 5 is on the PS3 and will come out on the X360. A big game getting released on every console but Nintendo's. That's the Cube's life story. If that sort of thing becomes common then the Wii doesn't have healthy third party support. It needs to get those games.
There is a lot of potential but what we know is in the works right now isn't that great. This isn't a good third party lineup...yet. We need to see how things go over the next year. We need to see if the Wii still sells when anyone can go to the store and buy one. We need to see what else Nintendo can do with the remote. Lots of stuff is still ahead. To think that this is great or even good would be settling. If this is the best we ever get then in a year everyone going ga-ga over the third party support is going to flip (again) to bashing third parties because they never give us anything good.
During the Gamecube drought people were making f*cking Cel Damage out to be something worthwhile.
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 08:32:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Third parties have no one to blame but themselves on this. Look at Super Monkey Ball - after One and Two, I figured I'd buy any game with the Monkey Ball name on it. (Hell, I even have Monkey Ball action figures!). Then SEGA goes and throws crap out there like the DS game and Super Monkey Ball Adventure and now I refused to touch Banana Blitz with a ten foot pole.
Don't give me Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heros and expect me to get excited because you announce a new Sonic game. I can only be burned so many times before I realize that the limited gaming time and money I have is better spent elsewhere.
Well... okay. Give third parties a chance EXCEPT SEGA. lol
... but Sonic: SR is still pretty neat. Just sayin'.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 01, 2007, 08:40:22 AM
The DQ series is a very important staple in Japan, so strong that even official DQ socks sell like hot cakes. DQ Swords is bound to sell greatly, or at the very least sell around 400,000 copies.
It's true that the series isn't that popular in the US, but Square is working that that. They started advertising the series in the US with DQ VIII. They almost promoted it as being as epic as the Final Fantasy games, and its my understanding that it did quite well.
And with DQ IX on the DS don't be surprised if all DQ games become Nintendo only.
So don't underestimate Square's support right now.
And I agree, you guys are setting your hopes WAY too high.
Instead of just bitching or question every game out and paint a drab picture, just ENJOY the games!
Seriously, the skeptical, bitter Nintendo fanboy act is SO 1996...
Post by: Adrock on March 01, 2007, 08:50:42 AM
Quote
Ian Sane wrote:
There is a lot of potential but what we know is in the works right now isn't that great. This isn't a good third party lineup...yet.
That's what I've been saying...... though some games are looking pretty great, namely Dragon Quest Swords and No More Heroes. Wii's 3rd party lineup is better than Gamecube's was 5 years ago, but it's still pretty spotty.
Post by: UncleBob on March 01, 2007, 08:51:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Third parties have no one to blame but themselves on this. Look at Super Monkey Ball - after One and Two, I figured I'd buy any game with the Monkey Ball name on it. (Hell, I even have Monkey Ball action figures!). Then SEGA goes and throws crap out there like the DS game and Super Monkey Ball Adventure and now I refused to touch Banana Blitz with a ten foot pole.
Don't give me Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heros and expect me to get excited because you announce a new Sonic game. I can only be burned so many times before I realize that the limited gaming time and money I have is better spent elsewhere.
Well... okay. Give third parties a chance EXCEPT SEGA. lol
... but Sonic: SR is still pretty neat. Just sayin'.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
I'd like to, but then they'll go and do something pissy like make Soul Caliber 3 a PS2 exclusive.
You know, when I got my GCN component cables in, the first game I tried was Soul Caliber 2? And I'm not even a huge fan of these types of games.
Anywhoo, think of it as food. Let's say you enjoy McDonald's on occasion. And let's say there's a locally owned resturant in town that... well... you've never been fond of. In fact, the last two times you ate there, you got food poisioning. So, both McDonald's and this local joint start selling a new chicken sandwich... Now, you're on a diet, so you only eat out once a week - which one are you going to try? Are you going to go with the safe place that you've been happy with all along, or are you going to support the smaller, local business just so you can say you're giving them a chance?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on March 01, 2007, 08:52:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Third parties have no one to blame but themselves on this. Look at Super Monkey Ball - after One and Two, I figured I'd buy any game with the Monkey Ball name on it. (Hell, I even have Monkey Ball action figures!). Then SEGA goes and throws crap out there like the DS game and Super Monkey Ball Adventure and now I refused to touch Banana Blitz with a ten foot pole.
Don't give me Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heros and expect me to get excited because you announce a new Sonic game. I can only be burned so many times before I realize that the limited gaming time and money I have is better spent elsewhere.
Well... okay. Give third parties a chance EXCEPT SEGA. lol
... but Sonic: SR is still pretty neat. Just sayin'.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
That is if you like Kirby Tilt and Tumble, or any other games of that nature. Hehe
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 08:55:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Should I say "not great support" instead? Or "weak support"? What wording do you deem appropriate for third party support that just isn't all that hot? Obviously I think third party support of any kind is better than none at all. But in general I don't think the support the Wii is getting is that great yet. It certainly isn't at a point where I would say that things are fine as is as we don't have to worry about everything.
You know why I'm not worried? Because of blog entries like this which point out some obvious and yet important facts:
"Consumer chaos, huge line-ups and shipment sell-outs are something that happen over Christmas, not in January. We expect them in December. It’s that wonderful time of year where everyone goes nuts and decides that what their bachelor apartment really needs in a 50? Plasma Television and so much IKEA furniture that the excess multitools can be melted down into a cube and exhibited in a museum as some sort of post-modern critique of consumerism and giant cubes. Everyone loses their sh*t in December, and so sales from that month are largely irrelevant. What’s hot in December is in the bargain bin in January, as generally kids wake up and realize that the thing they wanted — whether it was that version of Battleship that actually talked to you or some sort of voice-activated water pistol that attached to your finger — actually really sucks.
But that didn’t happen with the Wii. Their sales in January 2007 were the highest January sales for any console ever."
The support is coming. I know the support is coming, even without having to see that there is support listed, because I know for a FACT that developers make games which will give them the most return for their money.
If the Wii is the cheapest console to develop for (and it is, by FAR) AND the console with the highest userbase, then it will get all the games, PERIOD.
This is not a debate. This isn't even up for QUESTION. Devs go where the money is and I guarantee that any dev who wasn't thinking about the Wii before is launch is thinking pretty DAMN hard about it right now, even if we haven't heard announcements of these games yet.
In Japan, the Wii currently holds 60+% of the next-gen market, as we all know, it's clobbering the PS3 and it passed the 360 on its first day of sales.
In the eyes of Japanese devs (who still want to sell games in Japan), do you honestly think this isn't going to influence their decisions, especially while their rival dev companies are raking in huge profits on the Wii?
MORE to the point, by your OWN admissions, the Wii doesn't have any games YOU want to see on it, no "hype inducing games" and yet it STILL cannot be kept on store shelves. Imagine that.
So what happens when one of these "hype" games IS announced for the Wii? If the PS3 can't sell worth sh*t with FF and MGS on the horizon and the Wii cannot be kept on shelves WITHOUT these hype games, then I don't think it takes a degree in rocket science to figure out that the Wii is the clear winner here and I'm quite certain that 3rd party devs can likewise draw this very same conclusion for themselves.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2007, 08:57:36 AM
No in 1996 the optimistic Nintendo fanboy act was in. That's always the more popular attitude at the beginning of a Nintendo console life cycle. It's around the midway point or so where it's clear that console is screwed but the new console hasn't been revealed yet that the bitter Nintendo fanboy act becomes popular. Then once the new console is shown the retroactive "wasn't that console the best ever" Nintendo fanboy act comes in and declares that all the stuff they b!tched about was actually great.
So really I'm so 1998 or 2003.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 01, 2007, 09:16:27 AM
None of you and the internet and other games did not matter.
Post by: ShyGuy on March 01, 2007, 09:24:47 AM
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 09:28:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
That is if you like Kirby Tilt and Tumble, or any other games of that nature. Hehe
AAAAAAAARRRRRGGHHHHHH!!!
... *has a sudden idea*
It's official people. GoldenPhoenix HATES Kirby.
*smiles gleefully at this most monstrous of insults*
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 09:59:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: UncleBob
Anywhoo, think of it as food. Let's say you enjoy McDonald's on occasion. And let's say there's a locally owned resturant in town that... well... you've never been fond of. In fact, the last two times you ate there, you got food poisioning. So, both McDonald's and this local joint start selling a new chicken sandwich... Now, you're on a diet, so you only eat out once a week - which one are you going to try? Are you going to go with the safe place that you've been happy with all along, or are you going to support the smaller, local business just so you can say you're giving them a chance?
Well, just because Sega serves such bad food doesn't mean that Atlus does too! In fact, what if they bring their Megami Tensei Meal to our location? I've heard it's been a pretty decent hit in other regions, it's worth a bite or two at least! And what of these newcomers, Wahoo, where your Namco-Bandai dining card works? I hear they've got this real zany-out-of-this-world experience they're formulating for this summer.
And just for nostalgia's sake, let's not forget Totally Games! They made some KILLER burgers back in the day, but have sadly faded away. However, they're trying to come back onto the scene with some weird concoction having to do with Aliens and Syndromes.... I hope they're not daring us to catch some new version of Mad Cow Disease... But hey, for old time's sake it's worth a look see right?
I think you'll find that this is anything but a two restaurant town, and that your dining choices stretch from Japanese, to American, to even some wacky European cuisine! Why, just the other day, I had some Argentinian on the go!
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ceric on March 01, 2007, 10:01:16 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 01, 2007, 10:05:22 AM
Twice.
lol double gyped
Post by: couchmonkey on March 01, 2007, 10:16:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"There has NEVER been bad support for a console maker."
During the Gamecube drought people were making f*cking Cel Damage out to be something worthwhile.
And right now you have your choice of Sonic or SSX Blur, both of which are scoring somewhere in the 75% range on Gamerakings. Things are improving.
I admit, it's not that great right now, but I believe the support is coming. The fact is, it takes at least a year to put together a decent game these days, so third parties that didn't "get it" until the sales numbers started coming in aren't going to have anything ready until the end of this year. Even the ones that started figuring it out at last year's E3 are going to be looking at a summer-fall release. Rockstar is a perfect example - after E3 they were all like, "well, maybe..." and 8 months later, they announce Manhunt 2.
VF5 appearing on both other systems - better get used to it, publishers have to port their 360 and PS3 projects back and forth to get their money's worth, but porting to Wii from those platforms is probably a waste of time, so much effort would have to go into downgrading the graphics. Wii will wind up with the PS2/PSP ports and a bunch of exclusives.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 01, 2007, 12:01:48 PM
So by gimping their hardware Nintendo has essentially restricted their third party potential? I guess if they're number one in both major regions then all the big games will be made for the Wii in the first place but not being able to be ported to kind of sucks. But then that problem was spotted years ago so it's nothing new I guess.
Post by: UncleBob on March 01, 2007, 02:53:46 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 01, 2007, 04:24:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane So by gimping their hardware Nintendo has essentially restricted their third party potential? I guess if they're number one in both major regions then all the big games will be made for the Wii in the first place but not being able to be ported to kind of sucks. But then that problem was spotted years ago so it's nothing new I guess.
Like UB said, if that were true, the PS2 should have been dead last because it never got any ports.
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 04:39:53 PM
Nintendo needed to convince third parties to develop for the Wii, and they did it by appealing to their pocketbooks instead of their egos.
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Mario on March 01, 2007, 05:56:39 PM
Quote
Third parties have no one to blame but themselves on this. Look at Super Monkey Ball - after One and Two, I figured I'd buy any game with the Monkey Ball name on it. (Hell, I even have Monkey Ball action figures!). Then SEGA goes and throws crap out there like the DS game and Super Monkey Ball Adventure and now I refused to touch Banana Blitz with a ten foot pole.
Banana Blitz is the best one, for single player that is. Adventure was made by an entirely different team and the DS one is on DS and I don't know about that one.
If you haven't played the Wii third party games, you've got no right to say anything about them. Not a THING.
Anyway, Nintendo doesn't NEED third parties. The Wii will keep on selling out, and soon the userbase will be so big that third parties will need Nintendo and you'll all get the MGS and GTA games you'll never even play. VF5 a big title? LOL. Smash Bros is an example of a big title. VF5 flopped.
Post by: Urkel on March 01, 2007, 06:25:32 PM
And this thread is el oh els.
I remember back when Rick Powers raised a big stink and said that the DS would never get any big games, and that the potential of the touch screen was already exhausted. No matter how much everybody except Ian disagreed with him, he was certain that was the fate for the DS.
Of course, about a million people are going to reply "OH BUT YOU CAN'T COMPARE THE CONSOLE MARKET TO THE PORTABLE MARKET DON'T ASK ME WHY YOU JUST CAN'T". Bah. Whatever.
Post by: IceCold on March 01, 2007, 06:31:46 PM
Post by: Kairon on March 01, 2007, 10:32:39 PM
~Carmine "Cai" M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on March 02, 2007, 12:24:08 AM
Post by: MaryJane on March 02, 2007, 02:07:32 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on March 02, 2007, 02:28:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"VF5 appearing on both other systems - better get used to it, publishers have to port their 360 and PS3 projects back and forth to get their money's worth, but porting to Wii from those platforms is probably a waste of time, so much effort would have to go into downgrading the graphics."
So by gimping their hardware Nintendo has essentially restricted their third party potential? I guess if they're number one in both major regions then all the big games will be made for the Wii in the first place but not being able to be ported to kind of sucks. But then that problem was spotted years ago so it's nothing new I guess.
No, by gimping their hardware, Nintendo has made it possible to create Wii games for about half the price of the other two consoles, by some estimations I've seen. If this is true, then ignoring installed user bases, it costs me X million to make a game for Wii, or 2X million to create a game for both PS3 and Xbox 360. It's the same difference!
If you account for installed userbases the Wii is slightly higher risk than the other two - but it's marketshare is growing faster as well. At this rate, Wii could have up to 50% of the market by the holiday season, in which case it theoretically becomes lower risk than developing for both PS3 and Xbox 360! And if you port that Wii game to PS2 and PSP, suddenly you have 8-10 times as many potential customers for half the budget.
Edit: Of course that "half price" is just what people are saying based on what they've heard through the grapevine. Since game budgets aren't particularly public (and different publishers have different definitions of "cheap"), it's hard to say, but there seems to general agreement that Wii is significantly cheaper to develop for.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 02, 2007, 04:36:00 AM
1. Cheap dev kits.
2. It's an overhauled GC so if you've ever developed for the GC, it takes less time to learn the Wii.
3. The big one, NO HD REQUIREMENTS!
Most of development costs come in the form of manhours, as the price to employ competent modelers, artists, music composers, animators, programmers, designers and writers is where all the TRUE costs come from.
In the case of HD, every texture in your game must be able to display at 720p, meaning that your artists need to spend nearly 2X the manhours on every texture in the game, your modelers need to have 2X as many polygons so the models don't look like total ass, etc. etc.
HD requirement, depending on the game, can just about require you to develop a game twice, hence why the Wii is so attractive as a platform because, with a rising userbase and far less risk in terms of initial investment, devs stand to make more money, and money is always the bottom line here.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 02, 2007, 04:45:46 AM
The DS did get big games but I'd say the potential of the touchscreen was already exhausted. The DS has done quite well and has a decent lineup of games but I still, years after launch, haven't seen a game that really sells the touchscreen concept. At best it's a clever way to have mouse functionality on a portable gaming system and at worst it's use in games is forced. It seems like for the most part forced touchscreen usage has gone down and developers are more likely to use whatever control scheme works best for the game, which is what they should always do. The best thing about the DS is that it provides tons of control options and the best games are made from that point of view. That will be the DS' legacy, not the touchscreen itself.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 02, 2007, 05:29:34 AM
Brain Age cannot be done on the PSP. Rapidly solving math equations doesn't work if you have three answers in front of you because then it's a multiple choice question instead of forcing the mind to derive the answer on its own.
Nintendogs would be nigh-impossible to pull off on any other console. The tactile effect of rubbing the heads, backs and bellies of your puppies is lost if you're doing it with an analogue stick.
Also, FF12: Revenant Wings is a RTS RPG which uses the touch screen to command your units. I know that's basically mouse substitution, but the ability to control like a mouse on a device as small and portable as the DS is a boon.
Quote
The best thing about the DS is that it provides tons of control options and the best games are made from that point of view. That will be the DS' legacy, not the touchscreen itself.
And that's fine, really. The DS gave devs some new ideas and new ways to do things but forcing them to utilize the controls would have been a terrible idea.
Post by: Deguello on March 02, 2007, 05:35:56 AM
And who cares if it was forced at times? Nobody bitched when FMV or analog control or rumble was shoehorned into everything after their inception, whether it made the game better or not.
And there are several unique and innovative games on the DS that make wondrous use of the touchscreen. And there will be several more to come. To say that the touchscreen was exhausted day one is to say the D-pad was exhausted day one, which it sorta was because all it did was direction and joysticks already did that. But imagine in the next iteration of DS (like in say... 4 years. Thing's too damn successful to stop earlier) there is a much wider screen, which allow for more touchscreen real estate, or multiple touch input. You can't write something off as superficial when it becomes a huge success.
IMO the REAL innovation of the DS is the second screen. I think they just made the second screen a touch screen in order to keep it from seeming "useless." I mean I can't tell you how handy it is to have that screen be a permanent menu or map. It cuts down on the time you need to pause to look at them. Seriously, it's that good an implementation.
EDIT: Did you read my mind or something, Smash?
Post by: Adrock on March 02, 2007, 05:47:26 AM
Quote
Mario wrote:
Anyway, Nintendo doesn't NEED third parties. The Wii will keep on selling out, and soon the userbase will be so big that third parties will need Nintendo
What the....
I think Nintendo's proved that they don't necessarily need 3rd parties in the console space to continue as a console maker. However, Nintendo does need them to continue expanding. They might lock up the new gamer crowd, but the existing gamer who either hates Nintendo games or abandoned them years ago won't be buying Wii for Mario or Zelda (though they might dig Wii Sports). And it goes both ways. 3rd parties need console makers too. That's how the relationship should work. It's mutual.
Quote
Ian Sane wrote:
At best it's a clever way to have mouse functionality on a portable gaming system and at worst it's use in games is forced.
I agree with that to a certain degree. Many games tend to shoehorn touchscreen controls that make no sense. For example, New Super Mario Bros. used the touchscreen in the most assinine way especially when (I believe) X and Select did nothing (and A, maybe, was an alternate jump). On the other hand, it works great for Brain Age and kind of for Hunters (if that's your preference).
I think the real legacy of DS is that it forced everyone to think differently, even if you didn't have to. Nintendo made people look back at the core of gaming and showed them that games can go beyond holding a controller with both hands and memorizing various commands. I think they got their point across: Innovation is what is going to (or at least, should) drive the industry.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 02, 2007, 06:49:46 AM
Providing touch-interactive experiences that are easy to grasp, mobile, and accessible is downright CONVENIENT to the masses, especially in Japan.
Unlike, say, playing Brain Training on a PC/mouse (which would be effing awful since you lose writing functionality), Brain Training on DS provides entertainment with a obvious sense of physical freedom. (a concept that competes with the all-in-one home-based entertainment hub)
Post by: MaryJane on March 02, 2007, 07:04:37 AM
They're both going to be made for the Wii (you know the system this thread is meant for).
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 02, 2007, 07:26:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello Did you read my mind or something, Smash?
Yes, and I won't tell anyone about what I saw...for a price.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 02, 2007, 07:38:00 AM
Godfather, Manhunt 2, now Scarface...dare I say "Grand Theft Auto"? Guess it depends on how those others do.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 02, 2007, 07:41:28 AM
For some reason, I already had it in my head that Scarface would come to the Wii. Did I just read a lucky rumor or something?
Post by: ShyGuy on March 02, 2007, 07:47:50 AM
Post by: NWR_pap64 on March 02, 2007, 09:33:44 AM
They confirmed that the Wii version would have updated graphics and everything.
Post by: IceCold on March 02, 2007, 12:39:23 PM
QuoteRick said that before Kirby Canvas Curse, Meteos, Nintendogs, Brain Age, Phoenix Wright, Metroid Prime Hunters ,Trauma Centre and Trace Memory / Hotel Dusk came out. Those games more than prove the concept. Plus, how cool is it that you can scrawl on dungeon maps in Phantom Hourglass?
The DS did get big games but I'd say the potential of the touchscreen was already exhausted. The DS has done quite well and has a decent lineup of games but I still, years after launch, haven't seen a game that really sells the touchscreen concept.
Post by: couchmonkey on March 05, 2007, 05:20:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
I swear we knew and were talking about Scarface beforehand...
For some reason, I already had it in my head that Scarface would come to the Wii. Did I just read a lucky rumor or something?
What? And since I didn't provide a link I can't show that it was at least a new article. Oh well.
Post by: couchmonkey on April 16, 2007, 04:41:51 AM
Post by: IceCold on April 16, 2007, 09:11:23 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on June 18, 2007, 10:34:01 AM
The Chairman of the board, Strauss Zelnick, says: "To be perfectly frank, I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to realize what’s going on with Wii and DS. I will tell you that very quickly we turned to both 2K and to Rockstar and said guys, we need a DS strategy and a Wii strategy and we are working on it. As we get into the next quarter and into budget season for 2008, everybody in this company is completely focused on it."
The End.
