Post by: Shin Gallon on October 11, 2006, 08:51:13 AM
And don't get me started on the voices...if I wanted to listen to bad fake British accents, I'd...wait, I DON'T want to listen to bad fake British accents.
Compared to the utter perfection that was Final Fantasy X's battle system, this is a joke. No, an insult. I've loved the Final Fantasy series ever since I played the first on on the NES in 1990. I've played every one released in English save XI, because I simply don't do MMOs. I can tell you my favorite moment from every game in the series, and why I love each one because they're different, but still fun and filled with interesting characters I care about and with intriguing plots to go through. And the plot to XII seems interesting. grand, epic war between nations makes for wonderful storytelling if done right, and from what I hear, it's done very well here. But they saddled it with boring non-gameplay that sucks every bit of fun one might have had with it by removing the player completely from the equation.
This game does not deserve the title "Final Fantasy". Hell, it's hardly even a game. You don't even play it. It's basically an interactive movie. In fact, if they'd just made it a 40 hour movie, I'd have been happier (as long as they'd given me a Japanese voices option).
And now, a short list of games with better battle systems than Final Fantasy XII:
Final Fantasy X-2
Final Fantasy X
Final Fantasy IX
Final Fantasy VIII
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VI
Final Fantasy V
Final Fantasy IV
Final Fantasy III (I'm guessing)
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy
Wild Arms
Suikoden
Suikoden II
Breath of Fire
Breath of Fire II
Breath of Fire III
Breath of Fire IV
Breath of Fire V
Chrono Trigger
Chrono Cross
Legend of Mana
Secret of Mana
Secret of Evermore
Xenogears
And any other RPG ever made that's NOT Final Fantasy XII.
Post by: Pale on October 11, 2006, 08:59:29 AM
Hrmm.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 11, 2006, 09:12:39 AM
Post by: Pale on October 11, 2006, 09:22:57 AM
So in Symphonia I constantly tap A and in this game it does that part for me. Other than that, same difference.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 11, 2006, 09:30:28 AM
Post by: capamerica on October 11, 2006, 09:36:30 AM
If you want to blame someone for the new style blame the a$$wipes who B!tch about the fact that they are to much of a bunch of losers to deal with random monster attacks. God I freaken Hate these people who complain that they don't like RPGs cause they have random monster attacks. I wish Sqaure stayed with the FFX stlye.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 11, 2006, 09:37:52 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 11, 2006, 09:42:40 AM
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 11, 2006, 09:43:45 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on October 11, 2006, 10:19:41 AM
I played Final Fantasy XI and the reason I didn't like the game had nothing to do with the battle system itself, but how the game was unneccessairily hindered for no reason other than to deprive the user so that you would be required to stick with the game for a long period of time, thus ensuring that Square-Enix got a monthly fee month after month. And the fact that you lost exp when you died and de-leveled if you didn't have a nice cushion of exp, which is a bad game design since you got very little exp per battle in the first place.
Post by: Bill Aurion on October 11, 2006, 03:17:40 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 12, 2006, 06:59:20 AM
But then again I can't count your oppinion if you call FFX perfection. Grandia (2), that's perfection.
This game does not deserve the title "Final Fantasy". Hell, it's hardly even a game. You don't even play it. It's basically an interactive movie.
Most would argue that's what makes it deserve the FF name.
So in Symphonia I constantly tap A and in this game it does that part for me. Other than that, same difference.
That is not a very effective way of playing ToS.
I know, but people will play a Final Fantasy game (one of the good one, at any rate) and fuss about random encounters, as if they expected something else.
Well, YOU are playing a Final Fantasy game and complaining that it's a barely interactive movie.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 12, 2006, 07:47:20 AM
Grandia 2? You're joking, right? The only time the Grandia games were any good was the first one...on Saturn, not the crappy PSX port.
If you generally hate all FF games (and you obviously do), then why are you even wasting either of our times writing smartased comments to this post? It obviously doesn't concern you in the first place.
Post by: jasonditz on October 12, 2006, 08:19:07 AM
I haven't played XII yet (I have the demo, but I haven't popped it in), but the fact that in the demo you could win a boss battle without touching the controller... that's sort of a problem. Dragon Quest VIII unscored something I've been saying all along, RPGs are fine the way they are, and they don't really need a bunch of gimmicky twitch modes tossed onto them to make them enjoyable. In fact, half the time those modes are so ill-conceived that they ruin the game balance. RPGs are best left turn-based... if you want to add RPG elements to Adventure titles thats fine, but don't try to sell them to us as RPGs.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 12, 2006, 09:57:44 AM
The story was 08/15 clichee drivel but the battlesystem rocked hard. As opposed to FFX's battle system which usually ended up being "match enemy with the character that beats it". That was boring as hell.
RPGs are best left turn-based... if you want to add RPG elements to Adventure titles thats fine, but don't try to sell them to us as RPGs.
Adventure games are best left point & click based and without death. Perhaps you mean action games or realtime strategy. And I think that turn based RPGs should use a battlefield instead of placing the characters and enemies at an equal distance and just taking turns hitting each other. Turn based means you have enough time to devise and use complex strategies so there's no reason to limit the player to a system that's dumber than most realtime systems. Yes I know strategy RPGs do that but why aren't regular RPGs?
Perhaps I'm just looking at the wrong genre, I think games should depend more on skill than luck or the patience needed for level grinding. And I think skill should have enough ways to be expressed (instead of letting the player choose between the obviously correct and the obviously wrong approach).
Post by: WuTangTurtle on October 12, 2006, 10:30:41 AM
Post by: Artimus on October 12, 2006, 12:28:04 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 12, 2006, 01:26:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ShaolinKilla
Again KDR i agree with almost everything you say, and strongly at that but If you are talking about Adventure games being left best to point & click I really hope you don't mean like MMO's. That type of battle system is the most boring piece of $hit ever created, or if your just referring to games such Sam & Max then okay.
There's some confusion about what exactly "adventure" refers to.
Adventure by itself, as used by KDR and mistakenly applied by you refers to games like Sam and Max, Leisure Suit Larry, and Monkey Island.
Action-Adventure, which you should have used, refers to games like Zelda or Secret of Mana. These games can also be called actio games, dropping the adventure moniker completely to focus more on the action aspect.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: WuTangTurtle on October 12, 2006, 01:27:34 PM
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 12, 2006, 06:44:29 PM
QuoteFamitsu gave this one a 40/40.....so yeah XD
Originally posted by: Artimus
It'll get the best reviews of all time because it's SquareEnix and for the PS2.
and Grandia 2's battle system rocked hard
Post by: IceCold on October 12, 2006, 07:31:41 PM
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 12, 2006, 09:23:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Athrun ZalaQuoteFamitsu gave this one a 40/40.....so yeah XD
Originally posted by: Artimus
It'll get the best reviews of all time because it's SquareEnix and for the PS2.
They also gave Ocerina of Time a 40/40, and that's my least favorite Zelda game (Link to the Past still being my favorite, with Wind Waker a close second), and Soul Calibur, which is one of the more overated fighting game series if you ask me, so, yeah...I tend to take all reviews with a grain of salt, regardless of the source.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 13, 2006, 03:56:37 PM
I played it today for the first time and the fact that there was no QA at Square who would keep such a shoddy design from getting through is ridiculous.
It's not the lack of random monster attacks which kills this game: it's the fact that the interface should cost it a few points right off the bat.
The highest this game should have gotten is a 32. The fact that it received a 40 means that Famitsu has their heads rammed squarely up their asses (no pun intended). I actually want to punch these reviewers for such a blatant disservice to their craft.
Post by: capamerica on October 13, 2006, 04:56:19 PM
God I hate this new system. I started playing it today and I can't stand the new combat system, Its just a pain to use. Why can't they have a easier system for targeting enemys?
I hope Sqaure goes back to the Final Fantasy X format for Final Fantasy XIII, All this system does is make me miss the old Random Monster Attack system.
Post by: Magik on October 16, 2006, 12:47:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: capamerica
::cries::
God I hate this new system. I started playing it today and I can't stand the new combat system, Its just a pain to use. Why can't they have a easier system for targeting enemys?
I hope Sqaure goes back to the Final Fantasy X format for Final Fantasy XIII, All this system does is make me miss the old Random Monster Attack system.
What exactly is so difficult about targetting enemies? To me Its pretty much the same as it always use to be.
I guess I'm the only person on this board that actually likes FFXII. I find the battle system pretty awesome, and quite frankly, a breathe of fresh air in the series. I like the fact that I can customize the battle system to however I want. If I want it to be like the old FFs where I micro-manage EVERY single action, I can easily do that or make it so I don't have to manage my other characters and let the AI do everything based on my choices.
I didn't like the battle system at first, just like many of you, but after I had more time to play around with it and really understand the system, I found the system quite fun.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 16, 2006, 01:42:17 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 16, 2006, 02:06:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Does that mean you still don't fight your battles?
Sadly, no, you don't.
You tell the character to attack (by selecting it from a MENU which is opened with one of two buttons) and they stand there, wait until their attack bar fills up, then swing their weapon.
It's funny because the game features a lock-on ability which allows you to circle enemies but, as near as I can tell, it doesn't matter because when an enemy goes to attack you, it runs straight to you and hits you no matter how far from it you are at the time or if you're circle strafing it.
Basically, they added an unnecessary interface which pretends it's grounded in live action but is actually turn based anyway.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 16, 2006, 06:03:12 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 16, 2006, 06:20:06 PM
Do additional party members lead the interface to make more sense or not?
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 16, 2006, 07:16:25 PM
This may be the first Final Fantasy game I may pass on since FFXI...Not that I was that interested, but reading about how the battle system works just breaks the game for me.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 16, 2006, 07:33:11 PM
Having to open a menu to attack an enemy is just ludicrous: there are plenty of buttons which could be used to cycle through targets (like the mostly unused shoulder buttons) and one of the face buttons to toggle attack on. Since your other party members are AI controlled, there's no reason not to use these buttons to make immediate commands rather than select them from a menu.
The whole thing makes no sense. I know Square has always been all about the stories, but making such a horrible design decision is unlike them. Did they think people would want to open a menu every time they wanted to perform the most basic function in the game.
Even Children of Mana allows you to map ITEMS to buttons on the DS. You'd think that mapping attack wouldn't escape them...
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 16, 2006, 08:40:29 PM
I'm honestly surprised Square released a game with such a questionable engine. Had this been a new franchise, it wouldn't have been as bad. But this is FINAL FANTASY we are talking about, their bread and butter. You would think they would be careful when developing the game.
Good thing the Wii is coming out and there are many new DS games, cause I could care less about FFXII now...
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 16, 2006, 08:44:37 PM
In this case, the interface and basic battle system design inherently destroy my enjoyment of the game.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 17, 2006, 12:09:13 AM
And I think S-E just wants to tell us with FF12 that if we want strategy we should play a strategy game, RPGs are supposed to be based on mindless level grinding and not require skill...
Post by: nitsu niflheim on October 17, 2006, 04:51:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shin Gallon
See, my problem with FFXII is there isn't ENOUGH menu action. I want pure turn-based combat where I strategically make combat decisions for the characters, not some auto-pilot garbage taking control of the game away from me.
In this case, the interface and basic battle system design inherently destroy my enjoyment of the game.
can't you set up the gambit's or whatever to give you that complete control. I remember reading that you can have complete control over all party members if you want.
Post by: Smash_Brother on October 17, 2006, 10:54:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shin Gallon
See, my problem with FFXII is there isn't ENOUGH menu action. I want pure turn-based combat where I strategically make combat decisions for the characters, not some auto-pilot garbage taking control of the game away from me.
In this case, the interface and basic battle system design inherently destroy my enjoyment of the game.
That's fine, but I'm sure we can both agree that the end result is a game which tries to be a little bit of both and just ends up sucking.
The story might be good (although it seemed pretty basic from what I saw) but it doesn't make up for a clunky interface which tries to pretend to not be a turn based attack system when it actually is.
Post by: Magik on October 17, 2006, 01:13:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64
WOW...
This may be the first Final Fantasy game I may pass on since FFXI...Not that I was that interested, but reading about how the battle system works just breaks the game for me.
At least try the game before you decide to pass on it. I was in the same boat as you are. I read about the battle system and it sounded awful. But after playing it and fiddling around with the battle system, I found the game quite enjoyable.
Post by: Magik on October 17, 2006, 01:15:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shin Gallon
See, my problem with FFXII is there isn't ENOUGH menu action. I want pure turn-based combat where I strategically make combat decisions for the characters, not some auto-pilot garbage taking control of the game away from me.
In this case, the interface and basic battle system design inherently destroy my enjoyment of the game.
If you want to remove the AI controls, just turn off the gambits. Even with the gambits on you can still override the AI decisions.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on October 17, 2006, 01:29:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: MagikQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
WOW...
This may be the first Final Fantasy game I may pass on since FFXI...Not that I was that interested, but reading about how the battle system works just breaks the game for me.
At least try the game before you decide to pass on it. I was in the same boat as you are. I read about the battle system and it sounded awful. But after playing it and fiddling around with the battle system, I found the game quite enjoyable.
I decided to hold opinions till I play the game, believe me. I decided to look around to see if this issue is a matter of personal preference or faulty game design.
From what I've seen, the game has people torned in half. Some love the game and understand the engine and can't play through it.
This seems to be a common issue with FF games. Last I remember, people were annoyed that the monsters didn't attack in real time in FFX, while some loved the engine in 10-2 but HATED the story.
Post by: Magik on October 17, 2006, 01:46:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: pap64Quote
Originally posted by: MagikQuote
Originally posted by: pap64
WOW...
This may be the first Final Fantasy game I may pass on since FFXI...Not that I was that interested, but reading about how the battle system works just breaks the game for me.
At least try the game before you decide to pass on it. I was in the same boat as you are. I read about the battle system and it sounded awful. But after playing it and fiddling around with the battle system, I found the game quite enjoyable.
I decided to hold opinions till I play the game, believe me. I decided to look around to see if this issue is a matter of personal preference or faulty game design.
From what I've seen, the game has people torned in half. Some love the game and understand the engine and can't play through it.
This seems to be a common issue with FF games. Last I remember, people were annoyed that the monsters didn't attack in real time in FFX, while some loved the engine in 10-2 but HATED the story.
You're absolutely right, this game has torn the fanbase in half. Heck, you can check out GameFAQs forums to see that
.Post by: Shin Gallon on October 17, 2006, 06:35:53 PM
Quote
can't you set up the gambit's or whatever to give you that complete control. I remember reading that you can have complete control over all party members if you want.
The Gambits are precisely what REMOVE control from you. Stuff like that worked in the Kingdom hearts games because those are full action-RPGs, but if I have menu based combat, I don't fancy turning over control of the game to the AI, regardless of how much input the AI has from me.
You CAN put the game into Wait mode and not use Gambits, but then you still have the awful MMO-style free-roaming monster junk and the clunky, anti-intuative interface. If they'd added in a "Classic Battle" mode or something where it played like, say, FFVI or VII, I'd be fine with that. As it is, though, if I'm gonna play this game at all, it'll be for the story, and I'd just Gameshark the hell out of it to get through it as fast as possible and just see the story.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 17, 2006, 09:34:31 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 18, 2006, 12:18:45 AM
Problem is not free-roaming monsters. Earthbound had free-roaming monsters.
The problem is that once you get into combat, any movement AT ALL is a damn, dirty, lie. Actually, any time you get into a battle, anything you do AT ALL is a damn dirty lie. Once you get into a battle you should just lie back, cease all bodily functions, and commence atrophying. Then you push the analog pad in the direction of the next blob of monsters when you're done.
Penny Arcade said it best.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on October 18, 2006, 12:31:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
... I've only played the demo, that's all.
Problem is not free-roaming monsters. Earthbound had free-roaming monsters.
The problem is that once you get into combat, any movement AT ALL is a damn, dirty, lie. Actually, any time you get into a battle, anything you do AT ALL is a damn dirty lie. Once you get into a battle you should just lie back, cease all bodily functions, and commence atrophying. Then you push the analog pad in the direction of the next blob of monsters when you're done.
Penny Arcade said it best.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
One reason why I never cared much for FF games is because of things like that and the dang irritating random battles. With that said I did like one FF game and that was FFIV which I thought and still think is amazing.
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 18, 2006, 01:51:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
What's your problem with free roaming monsters? That way you can see what's coming up.
I dislike the lack of transition to "battle screen" mode, with the menus and good combat systems of older, better FF games. I dislike the lack of a Fanfare music, and the lack of victory poses and a screen telling me what I got out of the battle.
Basically I dislike everything about the game except the story and music and graphics. it looks and sounds wonderful, it just play like crap.
Post by: capamerica on October 18, 2006, 04:15:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shin Gallon
I dislike the lack of transition to "battle screen" mode, with the menus and good combat systems of older, better FF games. I dislike the lack of a Fanfare music, and the lack of victory poses and a screen telling me what I got out of the battle.
Basically I dislike everything about the game except the story and music and graphics. it looks and sounds wonderful, it just play like crap.
so far after what I have played so far I totaly agree with you Shin Gallon.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 18, 2006, 08:57:20 AM
I don't see a reason why the spot in the dungeon can't be used as a combat arena instead of spending forever to load the battlefield, the enemies, the battle models, then showing some camera sweeps that introduce the enemies, etc before you can fight. That's my biggest grief with random encounters and zoomed battles, usually the battle introduction and ending takes longer than the battle itself, especially against weak enemies.
I dislike the lack of a Fanfare music, and the lack of victory poses and a screen telling me what I got out of the battle.
That's nice to see if you fight at most ten battles per dungeon but as the number approaches the triple digits that victory pose is just annoying.
I'm not saying FF12 is good but I'm saying that Fallout had a much better combat system than the FFs without any annoying intro and outro for battles, the game just went into turn based mode when you encountered an enemy and that's it.
Post by: eurai on October 18, 2006, 05:52:13 PM
Quote
...The game just went into turn based mode when you encountered an enemy and that's it.
Chrono Trigger (in my opinion) achieved a perfect balance, here: plenty of encounters if you're in the mood for them -- many of them avoidable -- and almost no transition time between combat and exploration both before and after battles.
I'm bored when I play the FFXII demo. Random encounters and turn-based strategy can be frustrating, but they're at least not automatic processes that lack interactivity.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 19, 2006, 10:32:48 AM
Post by: Shin Gallon on October 19, 2006, 01:45:38 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Dunno, most random encounters are so mindless they could just as well be handled by the AI and save me unnecessary button presses.
So you have no problem playing a game that you don't actually play? Then Square-Enix has got your back on this one.
Post by: 18 Days on October 19, 2006, 10:32:25 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 20, 2006, 12:00:00 AM
Oh, I do have a problem with that but I don't think it can be solved by forcing me to manually select attack all the time. How about cutscenes that don't make your character do stupid things? How about a battle system that does NOT get on your nuts after playing the game for an hour or two? How about not having me encounter one of three possible enemy groups every five seconds in a dungeon? How about a story that's not clicheed to the point where you can predict the entire storyline with 95% accuracy after seeing the intro movie?
Post by: Kairon on October 20, 2006, 10:26:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
So you have no problem playing a game that you don't actually play? Then Square-Enix has got your back on this one.
Oh, I do have a problem with that but I don't think it can be solved by forcing me to manually select attack all the time. How about cutscenes that don't make your character do stupid things? How about a battle system that does NOT get on your nuts after playing the game for an hour or two? How about not having me encounter one of three possible enemy groups every five seconds in a dungeon? How about a story that's not clicheed to the point where you can predict the entire storyline with 95% accuracy after seeing the intro movie?
HUZZAH! HUZZAH!
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: LarryLegend on November 04, 2006, 01:20:44 PM
I am about 1 and 1/2 hours into this packaged pile of sxxx of a game and I swear never to drop it into the system again. Everything that was great about final fantasy going back to 7 has been changed for the worse . Everything about Final Fantasy now sucks . The battle sequences , no random encounters , these stupid fucxxxx liscence points, "autopilot" fighting , bad story, even the stupid ass talking bubbles above everyones head in the game that can speak to your character. Im sorry I bought this shxx . If you haven't bought it yet and even if you are a huge fan of Final Fantasy .....Do Not waste your Cash
Post by: KDR_11k on November 05, 2006, 03:07:05 AM
Post by: Magik on November 05, 2006, 03:24:07 AM
The Battle System is really good once you spend more time with it and really understand how it works.
Don't like License points? Its the same thing as AP, Sphere Levels or whatever skill points that were used in the past games.
'Auto-Pilot'? Once you get deeper into the game you'll realize that no matter how well you configure 'Auto-Pilot' aka the gambits, you'll never cover every situation possible. And if 'Auto-Pilot' is that bad... TURN IT OFF and manually input every action.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 05, 2006, 03:38:46 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 05, 2006, 04:46:39 PM
"The problem is that once you get into combat, any movement AT ALL is a damn, dirty, lie. Actually, any time you get into a battle, anything you do AT ALL is a damn dirty lie. Once you get into a battle you should just lie back, cease all bodily functions, and commence atrophying. Then you push the analog pad in the direction of the next blob of monsters when you're done."
Turn off the gambits and control everything yourself.
I have all characters main attack gambit to attack nearest visible foe, even the leader. This doesn't make the game easier because while I have the main healing gabit to heal either at 70 or 60 % health, those don't come into effect if the character is attack, it generally goes into effect when the character is not near an enemy or no looking at an enemy. When using items and gambits they seem to use them right away when needed. As items have a very short time between use and taking into effect, in a battle where time is short (and there are battles with time limits either a clock or otherwise) that can mean the difference between winning and dieing.
My only real gripe with the game is the very lazy camera. I hated the camer in FFXI, and this is just as bad. You have to control it just about all the time because it stays in one place.
And not a major thing, some parts of the game where its dark, it's really dark and hard to see hallway entrances and stuff if you aren't watching the mini map to see where the turn is.
When you are out killing to raise levels and/or collect LP, this make it go along a whoel hell of a lot quicker.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 05, 2006, 08:00:31 PM
And if you don't, can you still get through the game or do you have to stop for an hour of levelling occassionally?
Post by: Cortez the Kiler on November 05, 2006, 10:18:01 PM
The odd thing about this first post is that one should never be a disagreeing a** on their first post but I have to say that I love the new battle system in the Final Fantasy series. I say this as someone who has played the series from FFI. My main grief with the recent Final Fantasy games have been that individual battles take so freaking long. From the intro to the battle and the final celebrations, levelling (which I consider integral to the series) became a pain. With this new format the battles are rapid and one can either micromanage the battles or plan them out in advance. Personally I like setting up gambits for my secondary characters and controlling my main character. The more you play the game the more satisfying and complex this system grows.
In some ways this creates far greater immersion than some of the previous games. During X, for example, I would often times find myself pushing the X button ad nauseam. This didn't make me feel more involved, rather the contrary in fact. Seeing the enemies in real-time also makes the experience feel more authentic while playing.
In the end, I can understand why die-hards of the series may have issues; however, this is still a final fantasy game at heart and many of the changes feel like necessary progress. In a way it is how I hope I feel about the Wii when it comes out. It is an evolution of something that I adore that I hadn't even realized needed evolving.
Post by: oohhboy on November 06, 2006, 03:41:48 AM
Although I haven't played FFXII or any FF to any longer than 5 hours since I can't stand them. I have played TOS. The battle system is completely real time and can be completely automated if one wished. But, you wouldn't get far. TOS required constant input for the charater you currently controlled and for the bigger battles, your friends as so to make sure you didn't get your asses kicked.
From what I have gathered so far from this thread is that although FFXII does appear to be real time, it isn't. Underneath the gambit system, the menus, it is still an ATB system or variant like Chrono trigger. I dare say it, "A mid 90's system". I personally never liked it as it lacked the flow of a true real time system. It lacked the complete tactial control of a pure turn based system with crude and then annoyingly unnessercary positioning that rendered most attacks a few degrees off from useless.
Now that I have stepped into the crossfire. Shoot away. Just not the face alright.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 06, 2006, 04:45:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
When you are out killing to raise levels and/or collect LP, this make it go along a whoel hell of a lot quicker.
And if you don't, can you still get through the game or do you have to stop for an hour of levelling occassionally?
I think you can, as long as you sell your loot you collect as you fight from one area to the next, so you can buy better weapons. I've neglected armor and stuff more than anything else, spending on weapons and magic and abilities and only ran into one boss so far that gave me a problem, and then I found out that I could have run away from that boss. You immediately run into a weaker version of that boss in the next room that you are required to beat.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 06, 2006, 05:10:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
Has anyone thought about comparing this to the Tales of Symphonia battle system? Because I really want to know the differences between them. The prolbem with this thread right now is that everybody is too busy comparing this game to itself and its predecessors. There are other RPGs out there.
Although I haven't played FFXII or any FF to any longer than 5 hours since I can't stand them. I have played TOS. The battle system is completely real time and can be completely automated if one wished. But, you wouldn't get far. TOS required constant input for the charater you currently controlled and for the bigger battles, your friends as so to make sure you didn't get your asses kicked.
From what I have gathered so far from this thread is that although FFXII does appear to be real time, it isn't. Underneath the gambit system, the menus, it is still an ATB system or variant like Chrono trigger. I dare say it, "A mid 90's system". I personally never liked it as it lacked the flow of a true real time system. It lacked the complete tactial control of a pure turn based system with crude and then annoyingly unnessercary positioning that rendered most attacks a few degrees off from useless.
Now that I have stepped into the crossfire. Shoot away. Just not the face alright.
You don't have control of attacking like in ToS. FFXII battle system is a much better version of FFXI battle system. You tell to attack or have gambit set to attack, and your character(s) will then attack until enemy is dead. You don't press buttons to make them attack. That said, it's real-time turned base.
Post by: Galford on November 06, 2006, 05:52:15 AM
Great voice acting, decent story, good sound and graphics and a solidly refreshing new battle system.
The only peole who aren't going to like FF12 are those who don't like change.
Post by: SixthAngel on November 06, 2006, 06:28:43 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 06, 2006, 07:20:28 AM
The only real difference between a pure RT and automated ATB system is that the reload times for attacks in ATB exceed their attack animation.
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 06, 2006, 02:36:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Galford
It's apperant most people here don't know how to use the Gambit system. That seems to be a major sticking point. Master the Gambit system and master the game. Overall I like FF12 so far.
Great voice acting, decent story, good sound and graphics and a solidly refreshing new battle system.
The only peole who aren't going to like FF12 are those who don't like change.
No, I understand how to use the Gambit system, I just think it's a horrible idea from the ground up. One person's refreshing change is another's game-breaking trash. If you like it, fine, more power to you, enjoy playing a game you don't actually play. I'll have no part of it.
I don't mind change as long as it's GOOD change. FFXII doesn't qualify in my book. I waited 5 years for this game, the next installment in my favorite game series, and the sense of disappointment I felt when I played it was almost physical. It's that, above all else, that makes me dislike this game with such intensity.
Post by: Magik on November 06, 2006, 02:43:34 PM
Stop spreading false information.
Post by: Cortez the Kiler on November 06, 2006, 02:55:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Magik
"enjoy playing a game you don't actually play"? I don't think so. You can easily choose each action just like you could in any of the previous FF.
Stop spreading false information.
Thank you. I would even go so far as to say the gambits add a whole new level of strategy. Saying this is a game you "don't play" is ridiculous.
Post by: Galford on November 06, 2006, 03:08:26 PM
The only game I've heard produce more controversy is Legend of Dragoon.
Will FF12 replace FF8 as one of the best FF of the series?
Only time will tell...
Post by: Cortez the Kiler on November 06, 2006, 03:14:07 PM
Post by: Cortez the Kiler on November 06, 2006, 03:25:17 PM
"The mood in the office this morning is somewhat tense. We all spent the weekend playing FFXII and we came back today completely divided regarding its quality. I have to admit that after putting in nearly fifteen hours over the past two days I’m prepared to call it the best FF game I’ve ever played. I know that’s at odds with what I said on Friday but it’s the truth. Tycho and Robert are actually playing together and they’re at about the five hour mark. They came in this morning saying the game was trash and I can’t blame them. They’re knee deep in what I’d describe as the tutorial phase of the game. If you played Kingdom Hearts II you’ll remember that’s a game that doesn’t actually “start” until nearly eight hours in. I don’t mean like you don’t start having fun until then, I mean you literally don’t even see the title screen until you’ve dicked around with Roxas for eight f***ing hours. FFXII felt the same way to me. It’s extremely slow to start but now I’m having a hard time putting the controller down. The big thing for me was that I finally started to understand the combat system. I don’t just mean I could manage it, that’s not hard. I mean, I understood what they were trying to do and how it isn’t a departure from turn based combat but actually an interpretation of it. I almost said refinement there and maybe I should have. So the big complaint and the one I had for probably five hours was that I wasn’t actually doing much during most combat situations. My gambits took over and my characters just did their thing. It wasn’t until I got to the first boss Firemane that a little light bulb went off over my head and I really “got it”. I was literally stopping the action after every turn and adjusting my characters actions, or making new decisions. It was for all intents and purposes a turn based encounter. Now, this is where I wish I was Tycho because I want to explain the combat system as I understand it, but I’m not sure I’m up to the task. When I think about playing FFX or IX and I think about the battles that take place between bosses I remember that I was never really in too much danger. When a battle pops up between your party and let’s say some wolves in X you just select attack on all your characters, maybe toss in a fire spell for fun and then watch the wolves bite it. Most of the time you weren’t sweating over what each character should use their turn for because a single miss step could mean game over. Sure you could f**k up and die but you really only had to get serious during boss fights and handful of other tough mobs. Most of the time, it’s just you selecting the same moves over and over, occasionally dropping a healing potion. Well all that FFXII has done is stream line that process. I’m not pushing “X” as much but I’m doing the same things. It was hard for me to get my head around at first because I wanted to believe I was doing more than that but I wasn’t. I wanted to believe that every fight in IX really required strategy but it didn’t. People feel like their being taken out of the driver’s seat, that the car is just on autopilot now. The truth is that you may have been driving the car before but the f***ing thing was on rails. You just grind through monsters until you hit a boss and that’s when the combat really gets interesting. It’s funny, I should have realized what was going on when I played Enchanted Arms. One of my favorite features of that game was the ability to have your characters just do the same move they did last turn. Rather then having to go and select in from the menu it was automatic if I wanted it to be. Obviously I could tweak it and change that when I wanted but much of the time I just want my healer to heal, my fighter to hit and my wizard to cast spells. The Gambit system lets me tell my characters how I want them to behave. At anytime I can stop the action and make adjustments but for a lot of stuff I don’t need to. All its doing is saving me the trouble of navigating five different menus to tell a character to do the same thing they did last time. When I hit a boss all of that changes. Just like in previous FF games, now I really need to think about what everyone’s doing. I have my gambits as a sort of failsafe running underneath but for the most part I’m stopping the action all the time to adjust each character’s target or change a spell. Everything I love about controlling multiple characters through a difficult turn based fight is right there. That’s the thing, the new system means the game is as deep as I want it to be whenever I want it to be. Well there, that’s how I feel about the new combat system. I hope that made sense even if you don’t agree. The rest of the stuff about the game isn’t as important I don’t think. I love the story but that’s because it’s Star Wars meets LOTR. Obviously not everyone is going to dig that. I think the writing and the voice acting are the best in an FF game to date. Again that’s open to interpretation. I think most importantly for me beyond just getting my head around the combat is that I really like these characters. For me it doesn’t get much better than Balthier. Like I said, everything else is secondary though. If you don’t like the gambit system and the way it affects combat then you won’t stick around long enough to enjoy the rest of it. I just felt like it was important to tell you guys how drastically my impression of the game changed over the weekend. Maybe it’s still not for you but I’d recommend giving it some time. You may find out that it’s exactly what you wanted. "
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 06, 2006, 05:49:09 PM
Post by: Cortez the Kiler on November 06, 2006, 06:06:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Shin Gallon
Yeah, I read that. I disagree. I don't like the Gambit system or how it affects combat, and I'm not sticking around in the game. I gave it some time. It's the complete polar opposite of "exactly what I wanted". I simply don't enjoy the game, period.
Out of interest, how far did you make it before you quit?
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 06, 2006, 06:31:47 PM
The only redeeming qualites of the game are the graphics, the story and the music. Basically everything but how it actually plays, I love. But the battle system simply refuses to let me like it. In every other Final Fantasy game, by the time I was 5 hours in I was in love with the game. That's simply not the case here, because for me the game's system is inherently flawed.
Post by: Kairon on November 06, 2006, 08:32:20 PM
Even with gambits off, I can see how someone can be totally weirded out by being given the option of moving in real time, yet that having no effect at all. Heck, even WoW is more complex then that, you can actually run away in WoW and it's a sorta fun thing to do too.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: nitsu niflheim on November 07, 2006, 03:09:22 AM
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 07, 2006, 05:07:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nitsu niflheim
You can run away in FFXII.
I've yet to do so sucessfully, the enemies just follow you and re-engage, often with even more enemies this time. I swear, it's like they designed this game specifically with pissing me off in mind.
Post by: KDR_11k on November 07, 2006, 06:26:40 AM
Gambits sound like more elaborate unit behaviour settings than what we see in RTSes. As long as you have to micro when hitting a boss I don't think there's much wrong with that, although I think RPGs would benefit from requiring more strategic thinking in all situations rather than just boss fights (and even those usually devolve into spamming heal and your highest DPS attacks in most RPGs). I think the average battle in Company of Heroes demands more from the player than many RPGs.
Post by: Magik on November 07, 2006, 11:54:43 AM
Post by: Kairon on November 07, 2006, 01:56:46 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 07, 2006, 05:14:18 PM
Why is it so hard to believe that I honestly, truly, just don't like this game?
Post by: Magik on November 08, 2006, 02:13:41 AM
Its the fact that you blatantly lie when you say "the game plays by itself" when its far from that.
If you've played the game long enough you would realize that:
1.) You're not given every single gambit at the beginning of the game, you have to either find them or buy them
2.) You can manually control each individual action
3.) Even having all the gambits, you won't be able to cover ever single possible situation that can occur, especially with the later bosses and even the secret bosses
Post by: Mikintosh on November 08, 2006, 06:57:31 PM
If the game had been called Final Fantasy Gambit or something catchier, I think there wouldn't be this confusion amongst some of the populice (Final Fantasy XI being an MMO probably hasn't helped keep the franchise name cohesive either).
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 08, 2006, 07:40:05 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on November 09, 2006, 07:48:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
Final Fantasy: The Crystal Bearers' inclusion of AIRSHIPS makes it an official Final Fantasy game. We know where the REAL SERIES heading now.
That's more truth than any of us realize.
Post by: vudu on November 09, 2006, 08:06:32 AM
QuoteIt works for Resident Evil 4.
Originally posted by: Mikintosh
the idea of radically changing how the game is played (not just going from 2-D to 3-D) in one of the major installments of a two-decade series strikes me as...weird and not something I like the idea of.
Post by: Ceric on November 09, 2006, 11:01:39 AM
Post by: Mikintosh on November 09, 2006, 11:36:46 AM
I thought FF 1-10 played mostly the same way, with some minor changes (akin to adding 2 vs. 2 battles in Pokemon), though I haven't touched some of the games in the series.
Post by: Shin Gallon on November 09, 2006, 10:35:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Magik
We do believe you don't like the game.
Its the fact that you blatantly lie when you say "the game plays by itself" when its far from that.
If you've played the game long enough you would realize that:
1.) You're not given every single gambit at the beginning of the game, you have to either find them or buy them
2.) You can manually control each individual action
3.) Even having all the gambits, you won't be able to cover ever single possible situation that can occur, especially with the later bosses and even the secret bosses
I don't mean it plays itself all the time, but with Gambits you do far, far less actual playing than you would otherwise. People have argued that Gambits remove the "tedious" repitition of the game, but I feel that even if I'm just hitting "Attack" over and over, at least I'm having SOME input on the game and not just looking out for the times I need to step in.
Setting the game to Wait, turning the speed all the way down and not using Gambits has made the game at least tolerable, though, so that I can get the parts of the game I actually do enjoy: The story and music. The story is incredibly good in this one, I just wish it weren't saddled with such a lacking combat system.
Post by: Artimus on November 09, 2006, 10:47:26 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 09, 2006, 11:06:27 PM
I think it just acts as a magnifying lens over the fundamental flaw many RPGs exhibit (normal combat dumb as bricks). You see more than the current and maybe the next few turns, you see the battle as a whole and you realize the battle is pretty dumb.
Post by: Requiem of Darcness on November 11, 2006, 02:26:14 PM
As for the RE comparison, RE4 plays completely differently from the others. The control system is vastly superior and its more of an action game. In previous RE games you had clunky controls, an imprecise aiming system, and a fixed camera perspective. RE4 had none of those. The camera was over the shoulder, you had true analog aiming, and the control system was actually intuitive. The setting and mood of RE4 was similar to prior games but the way it played was completely different on the whole. That is why so many people that weren't big fans of the RE series , such as myself, find RE4 to be such an excellent game.
Post by: Mikintosh on November 11, 2006, 03:56:15 PM
As I said before, I haven't played FFXII yet, but if the Wait system thing works, than I'd be happy. I'm all for new controls, but use them in a spin-off, 'cause using them in a regular installment inferes with certain expectations of what an FF game is like. Personally, I like entering the commands manually because, as Shin Gallon said, it makes me feel active in the game, which I need for RPGs 'cause I'm really more of a side-scroller/fighting game guy. What was wrong with the ATB system that they couldn't keep going with that?
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2006, 08:32:27 PM
The difference is that SMB didn't control horribly.
I'm all for new controls, but use them in a spin-off, 'cause using them in a regular installment inferes with certain expectations of what an FF game is like.
I disagree with that, sequels should seek ways to improve the user interface and in this case there was a good reason to remove the manual control of every action (just like Diablo 2 no longer requires you to click once per attack). Since this requires less attention than the standard system in standard situations (i.e. just sluggin' on de enemiez) they might increase the active party size on the next-gen systems (since the PS2 can't display more party members) so if you have e.g. 7 characters in your party you get to use all of them instead of swapping them out all the time.
Personally, I like entering the commands manually because, as Shin Gallon said, it makes me feel active in the game, which I need for RPGs 'cause I'm really more of a side-scroller/fighting game guy.
Personally I prefer not to be bothered with unnecessary decisions. I'd feel more active if I actually did more than just "sign" the attack order every turn. Thinking up actual strategies and stuff like that.
What was wrong with the ATB system that they couldn't keep going with that?
Too repetitive, especially for standard situations where you're just hitting attack anyway.
Post by: Nick DiMola on November 05, 2007, 06:38:32 AM
Post by: ShyGuy on March 29, 2008, 01:41:33 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 29, 2008, 03:14:37 PM
Post by: Ceric on March 29, 2008, 09:23:43 PM
Late to the Party Bump! Played a bit of this last night. Not hating it, but it seems a bit dull. Combat seems shallow.It has depth. But I would recommend doing all of the character enhancement licenses as soon as possible.
The beginning is a little dull but that's par for square. It does pickup and I enjoy the hunts.
Post by: Pale on March 30, 2008, 10:34:43 PM
http://palehour.com/index.php?PBPost=49
Post by: mattjames2010 on February 16, 2010, 12:47:01 AM
I don't think many people would have had many problems with the battle system if it didn't happen so abruptly. I mean the last official Final Fantasy that was made in my mind was Final Fantasy X. Final Fantasy X had the old school battle system to it, with a few minor changes (controlling of summons, and switching characters during battle). Then Final Fantasy XII comes out of nowhere and hits you with their newly designed battle format, which yes is seriously flawed when you break it down. Now, I have no problem with seeing the enemies, cause one of my favorite games of all time (Chrono Cross) did it very well, but allowing your players to move around while fighting and not sending you to a new battle screen is what I have a problem with. To me it took away the very essence of what made Final Fantasy what it was. Did they do it because Real Time MMORPG is so popular now? Probably, but to me Final Fantasy has become like every other game out there now.
Now onto the story line, all I have to say about it is.......why did they choose Star Wars to influence the game? The judges looked like a bunch of Darth Vadars, and they even got an annoying lead character like Luke Skywalker.
Post by: broodwars on February 16, 2010, 12:59:41 AM
Post by: Stogi on March 04, 2010, 12:10:30 AM
Post by: broodwars on March 04, 2010, 01:44:12 AM
I know this isn't the proper venue but I just saw a commercial for FFXIII and it was hilariously terrible. I think it had Mariah Carey singing as a bunch of indistinguishable clips played that somehow ended up making a photo of an anime chicks face.
Leona Lewis, actually (the song's called "My Hands"). Yeah, that commercial's pretty terrible. It's the kind of thing that might fly in Japan, but I just can't see who it would appeal to over here. The International Trailer's pretty great, though, with good use of "My Hands" and some great in-game/FMV footage.
