Post by: jimmyjock on September 28, 2006, 01:57:56 PM
jimmyjock
Post by: Ian Sane on September 28, 2006, 02:05:43 PM
Post by: vudu on September 28, 2006, 03:19:10 PM
Post by: King of Twitch on September 28, 2006, 05:45:48 PM
Post by: Athrun Zala on September 28, 2006, 06:39:56 PM
Post by: Viewtiful mario on September 30, 2006, 06:42:02 PM
Post by: WalkingTheCow on October 02, 2006, 12:06:08 AM
. . . Also, am I the only one who thinks Tales of Symphonia is crap? Fun enough for a while, but it just got boring, repetitive, generic and predictable.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 02, 2006, 01:16:06 AM
Post by: jasonditz on October 02, 2006, 11:37:29 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 02, 2006, 11:55:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: WalkingTheCow
I second Ian's opinions. Skies of Arcadia and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door are the two best RPGs for GC. That said, Baten Kaitos is worth a pick-up as well (turn off the voice acting though).
. . . Also, am I the only one who thinks Tales of Symphonia is crap? Fun enough for a while, but it just got boring, repetitive, generic and predictable.
You're in the minority.
Stop using Lloyd. The rest of the characters are way more interesting in combat.
Tales of Symphonia is THE RPG for people who don't "play RPGs." People who "do play RPGs" say Baten Kaitos is "tolerable" and "a good effort". People who don't play RGPs will say it's "pretty, but slow and boring (fo sho)" and quit after 5 hours. Why? Cuz battling as active-participants is better than waiting for a turn.
My friend is an RPG player. His wife isn't. His wife has done everything there is to accomplish in ToS. I've completed the game on 3-4 separate games with her via multiplayer cuz it's simply FUN. Especially working together to chain combos and get 20.00 grade on boss battles.
Whenever I do play it solo, it's more like a old-favorite fighting game than a stat-fest. It's not waiting for the next level-up, it's "bring on the next boss battle." ToS looks and feels good when played with finesse. Anything is repetitive after 5 minutes, video games are like that. I'd rather have repetitive action than repetitive waiting.
Post by: IceCold on October 03, 2006, 09:40:22 AM
QuoteA The Thousand Year Door?
Super Mario ATTYD (name is too long),
Post by: Ian Sane on October 03, 2006, 10:02:01 AM
I don't really care for it either. I played it for a while with my brother but we lost interest. The story is just cliche city and I find that pretty every RPG has such dull gameplay that without an interesting story I'm bored stiff. A lot of people praise the real time battles but I hate them. They combine the worst elements of real time and turn based fighting. I still have to navigate menus to use items and such but I can't stop and think about what I'm doing. If you're going to go realtime do it full on like Zelda. Don't give me an awkward hybrid. If it's turn based then make it turn based and let me take as much time as I want to to choose my next action.
I think Tales of Symphonia is overrated because it's an RPG on a console that is weak on RPGs.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2006, 10:30:17 AM
I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.
Edit: Forgive me, I'm an old curmedgeon who loved FF6, hated FF7, and whose last enjoyable RPG experience was Paper Mario on the N64.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 03, 2006, 10:57:53 AM
You're complaining about a paused item menu in an action game?
I hear people loved the paused ring-menus of the Mana realtime action RPG series.
In ToS, good offense and strategy reduces the need and frequency to use items and thus the menu. Typically, the items exist to keep your ass from getting killed in battle.
You should be dishing-out the hurt, not getting hurt. The challenge is in maintaining good combat form, not struggling to survive.
YES, YOU CAN STOP TO THINK. BRING UP THE PAUSED ITEM MENU.
You talk as if the menus are interrupting every battle you walk into. Are you getting your ass kicked that often?
Edit: Symphonia delivers combat to people who want less "AR PEE JEE" and more KOMBAT. And tons of collectibles for people who like to collect stuff. I see Kairon is sticking to a particular mold he likes, and isn't satisfied with anything else labeled "RPG". Me, I stick with Tales and Mana. I'M NOT GONNA WITH PAPER MARIO CUZ IT'S TURN BASED. Making me wait to attack? Absurd.
If you played thru the entire game as Lloyd, for 1 game, i'd be sick of the game too. Thankfully, ALL THE OTHER PLAYABLE CHARACTERS ARE WAY MORE INTERESTING TO CONTROL, AND THAT'S WHERE I GET MY ENJOYMENT.
Post by: KnowsNothing on October 03, 2006, 11:55:56 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 03, 2006, 12:29:25 PM
Apparently chop-chop-chop is better than wait-wait-wait.
Realtime ftw.
Post by: Kairon on October 03, 2006, 02:43:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
I see Kairon is sticking to a particular mold he likes, and isn't satisfied with anything else labeled "RPG". Me, I stick with Tales and Mana. I'M NOT GONNA WITH PAPER MARIO CUZ IT'S TURN BASED. Making me wait to attack? Absurd.
I loved both Earthbound and Secret of Mana, one an extremely turn-based RPG that had didn't show your heroes in the battlescreen in lieu of boxes to show their HP and PP, and the other the quintessential action rpg that Square has somehow managed to SQUANDER.
It isn't about whether the battle system is turn-based or not, it's about whether or not the game can actually present me with a story more interesting than Saturday morning anime gussied up in collectable cards, flying ships, or english voice-acting... or whether it can offer me gameplay mechanics that's put together well enough so that the fun is in playing the game itself, not in reading the text boxes.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
P.S. RAAAAARGH DERAIL THREAD!
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 03, 2006, 06:10:00 PM
Quoteyou completely misundertood what the game was about then
Originally posted by: Kairon
I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.
and ToS IS great, there was ONLY ONE battle were I had to get constantly into the items menu (the DA sidequest), and there is lots of variety in playing, as most characters are controlled differently. For example, I loved playing as Presea and as Zelos, but didn't like AT ALL to play as Raine, Genis or Sheena. Lloyd was okay, he has some great moves though, like Beast Sword Rain, Raising Falcon and Raining Tiger Blade
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 03, 2006, 11:51:09 PM
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 06:41:07 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 04, 2006, 05:00:17 PM
Quotelol, it isn't
Originally posted by: Kairon
But the game is so mindblowingly easy. Hack 'n Slash can beat it. Whhat's the appeal of being proficient at characters then?
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
try to hack'n'slash the whole game and were that gets you
Post by: Kairon on October 04, 2006, 07:45:54 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 04, 2006, 08:47:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Athrun ZalaQuotelol, it isn't
Originally posted by: Kairon
But the game is so mindblowingly easy. Hack 'n Slash can beat it. Whhat's the appeal of being proficient at characters then?
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
try to hack'n'slash the whole game and were that gets you
Oh, Kairon doesn't believe people can have digital fun and enjoyment by exercising their own skills? Pity. I guess the non-gamer market is non-existant afterall.
SINCE WHEN, in these silly side-quest-filled, uber-levelling, collecta-thon japerneeze games, was beating the game "the end of it"?
Ever since beating ToS for the first time, did I play it like it was an RPG? HELL NAW, I PLAYED IT LIKE IT WAS A FIGHTING GAME (aka Boss fights are fun and are a joy to replay) -- A FIGHTING GAME WITH OCEANS OF TEXT I HAVE TO SKIP. I said it before, the story goes OUT THE WINDOW on subsequent play-thrus, and it's all about ass-kicking.
About Hack N Slash,
Hack N Slash gets you through the game when the game is easy. The game is easy when you've got sufficiently high levels/stats. You earn high levels/stats by filler-combat just to gain experience points. Filler-combat TAKES A LONG FREAKING TIME. OF COURSE the game is easy since your stats are so high; the enemies beyond become pushovers, especially the last battles. But if Hack N Slash (no blocking) is sufficient to get by, you've spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME leveling up, skewing your end-game experience, making you boring, like the dude who leveled Alucard to 9999 in Symphony of the Night, and I don't want to discuss games with you.
And about Lloyd, the most boring character in the game,
HE, LIKE HIS TALES SERIES PREDECESSORS, ARE KINGS OF HACK N SLASH. THEY HACK AND THEY SLASH. SETTING ONE UBER-MOVE TO THE B-BUTTON AND SHOVING ORANGE GELS DOWN HIS THROAT makes the game a breeze. But that would be kissing the first tree in front of you and not seeing the rest of the forest, when the rest of the forest is what's really enjoyable, and you're eventually sick of kissing that first tree.
Here's a crazy idea: Tales of Symphonia is FUN when it's HARD. Therefore I MAKE THE GAME HARD. How? Well one obvious way is to set the game to Hard. But I do things the other way, playing the game FAST on a blank file from scratch. How is this feasible? I USE THE BLOCK BUTTON, and apply skill & strategy, breaking the whole Hack N Slash routine/option. When playing fast, Hack N Slash doesn't get you far, particularly because you don't have the statistical advantage -- and when things are difficult, it's easy to see there's LOTS of skill & strategy to apply. It's apparent as you take Lloyd out of the picture, since he's just a walking Combo Meter with an ugly red costume. But even when you're disadvantaged, Lloyd's choppy-chop talents won't get far, and he proves to be a complete orange/apple gel sink hole in this situation.
So, take Lloyd out cuz he's boring and he breeds boring players who get bored.
Now, setup your characters with the goal of making them self-sufficient; do as much as you can to reduce their dependecies on replenishing items. Then, arrive at boss battles withi minimal leveling, realize you're getting your ass handed to you, and realize HEY, BLOCKING AND TIMING AND THE OTHER WORDS THAT START WITH "S" ARE ESSENTIAL. Really, much of the earlier bosses are way more entertaining than the final boss, especially when playing with the limitations resulting from lack of level-ups.
Why wait till AFTER you've beaten the game, after level 90 or whatever, to fight in the Colosseum and collect the titles? Cuz it's easier that way and the enemies will be pushovers and you'll get your lame rewards that are pretty useless so late in the game? FORK THAT. Finish the Latheon Gorge region, and Noishe your ass over to Meltokio at level 60 and get your titles then. NOW THAT IS DIFFICULT, and it'll force you to learn a lot of interesting gameplay nuances of your characters. And hey, when you do manage to get your titles, you'll still have so much of the game left to finish to see your character REALLY GROW WITH UBER STATS AND BUFFNESS -- without spending useless time leveling up.
--Oh, you didn't bother with the Colosseum cuz it's optional? Fine, Mr. Boring.
When you miss out on the hidden boss battles, you miss out on the best opportunities to test the fighting system -- the last battle doesn't cut it, and if the last boss was replaced with Abyssion, I'd say people would hit a brick wall and just be shocked by the sheer level disadvantage they'd run into. [then cry and say how hard the game is and complain]. It's obvious the last boss exists for story purposes, while Abyssion exists as a reward for people who really like spending time with the most detailed portion of the game, the combat, and give people a reason to visit gamefaqs.
Now, beat Abyssion, at level 65, in UNDER 10 MINUTES, without the use of Hourglasses/Timestoppers (aka in-game cheats), and earning a POSITIVE grade rating -- hack n slash now only applies to that piece-of-cake Bongo Bongo boss battle in "Oakland Arena on Time" -- CUZ IT AINT GONNA HELP IN THIS TALES FIGHT. Sure, you could try to rely on Lloyd, and win, but it'll likely take 20min+ and many life bottles -- this is where getting to know your other characters, particularly Sheena, makes a difference on the speed and finesse of the battle. Use skill, and ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING COOL, or hack n slash your way to a drawn out half-hour fight that'll probably exhaust your entire inventory of health items, making you look pathetic in such an "easy" game.
Abyssion also makes for good multiplayer boss fighting. Multiplayer combo-chaining is fun. And earning high grade makes you say WOW.
Of course, none of this applies to the boring players out there.
Tales of Symphonia can be the boring drawn-out 40+ hour level-up game at your leisurely pace, or the quasi-fighting game adventure full of character customization for the peeps who enjoy skill & STRATEGERY (if enemies drop dead quickly, you're playing too slow), or the 40+ hour leisurely COLLECT-A-THON for those who like earning and organizing reward items and enemy lists. 2 out of 3 people, each of the preceding categories, were able to enjoy this game in a multiplayer capacity over many summer and fall and winter weekends -- [boring] person #1 wasn't one of them.
Pro likes difficulty and likes to maximize skill when applicable/fun/fashionable (Tales, Viewtiful Joe, SSBM, Mario Power Tennis, Metroid Prime 2).
Post by: Kairon on October 05, 2006, 10:24:38 AM
Me, however, I played the game through as it presented itself: an RPG, from beginning to end, multiplayer, 40+ hours, at the level of competency the game told me I needed. And I feel that my play experience is a direct reflection of the intent of the developers to craft their gameplay. If they had really wanted me to delve into their diversions, then they would have integrated them better and then at least tried to motivate me to do so. Miyamoto would've.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: KDR_11k on October 05, 2006, 11:05:25 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 05, 2006, 12:06:27 PM
Observers only have the privilege of glimpsing that intimate relationship from a distance.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 05, 2006, 03:48:18 PM
The players who like to explore don't need to be teased or ask to be presented with incentives. Just knowing options exist, being hinted with possibilities, are enough to send them on their way.
That, and, they won't remain stuck driving behind a slow car when they know other lanes are open. ToS is a 10-lane freeway, not a bus ride. Getting tired of a TV show? Change the channel. Need a little excitement? Snap into a SlimJim*.
*not an endorsement for SlimJim.
Post by: Kairon on October 05, 2006, 04:30:56 PM
In much the same way, WoW uses "breadcrumb" quests to lure players out of lands they're appropriately levelled for and into new, more exciting, more level-appropriate areas. THIS essentially makes exploration an integral part of the game, instead of an optional pathway that is entirely up to the player to implement.
The opposite, the garden with points of interest randomly strewn about with no relation to each other at all, is more like Second Life. There's wonders all around you, but there's nothing to tell you that: no streets that promise excitement, no context to slowly ease the user from one sight to the next, no mechanism to guide the player on a journey of discovery. Instead, Second Life is a chaotic universe of vast expanses of barren undeveloped land and cluttered unorganized second-rate user-created sprawling sludge, with the gems few and far between...
There are some seriously BEAUTIFUL pieces of user-created content in Second Life, but good luck finding them without grabbing another player, and asking for a "warp."
In contrast, in WoW, in Japanese Gardens, and in Miyamoto's games, you're not dropped like a baby giraffe into a careless and unorganized world, but instead pointed in the right direction and given the incentive to be bold and take that step around the corner.
...
Even on a 10-lane freeway, you can see that there are other lanes to switch to, exits to take, shortcuts to get lost in, rest stops, gas stations, small towns and small urgan adventures. But with ToS, I felt like I was on a 1-lane road through a forest, the trees on either side of me 2D textures that concealed everything beyond them and promised nothing if I dared venture that way.
For all I know there could have been festivals on the other side of those trees, carnivals and dancing bears and katamaris and beluga whales and flowers in her haird and bells on the hill that I never heard ringing and all sorts of wonderful things like whiskers on kittens and raindrops and noses and beluga whales... did I say beluga whales twice? thrice.
AND that's all WONDERFUL. I LOVE THAT. I bet I've even loved games that require me to force my way past the developer's ineptitude to enjoy the goodness! I'm not knocking ANY of that stuff's worth.
What I AM knocking is WHO IN THE HELL PUT ALL THOSE TREES BETWEEN ME AND THE GOOD STUFF?!?!?! WHY WOULD THEY LET ME SPEED THROUGH A GAME I AM SUPPOSED TO ENJOY!?!?!?! WHY WERE THERE NO EXITS OFF OF MY ONE-LANE HIGHWAY TO EVEN HINT AT THE WONDERS THAT LAY BEYOND?!?!?! WHY OH CRUEL FATE WHY?!?!?!
...
Yeah. I have nothing against games for collectors (Pokemon, Mario's 8 red coins, Rocket Slime), games for explorers (Tail of the Sun, WoW, GTA 3), games for people who want to actually play games instead of blow through them in one night (Zelda:WW, WoW, GTA 3).
I just can't like a game that rushed me through it almost as if it intentionally wanted me to not ever discover that it had depth, or sidequests, or nuance... I also can't like a game with a cliched anime story. YUCK. Big-boob jokes are lame-o.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Athrun Zala on October 05, 2006, 05:13:28 PM
Quoteyou did ^^
Originally posted by: Kairon
What I AM knocking is WHO IN THE HELL PUT ALL THOSE TREES BETWEEN ME AND THE GOOD STUFF?!?!?!
Post by: UniversalJuan on October 05, 2006, 07:29:52 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on October 06, 2006, 05:41:03 AM
I don't see how the game doesn't tempt you with sidequests. It constantly dangled things just out of reach for me. For example, the biggest sidequest in the game starts with you finding a cursed weapon in the mine, something that anyone with the tiniest modicum of explorer's instinct would find. I can't imagine anyone saying, "Well, I got what I came for, so I don't see any reason to walk three feet to the next box to see what's in it." So now you've got a cursed weapon. What's the point of it? It doesn't seem to have any benefits at all. There must be something to it, right?
Then there's a floating city that, from what I remember, is completely optional. There's no reason to visit it in the main plot, but if that's enough to keep you from checking it out, there's something wrong with you, not the game. What happens when you visit it? Among other things, you learn about another Summon Spirit. You learn that it has ties to the floating city. If you've ever played a game before, you should realize that this sort of NPC chatter isn't just for show. It takes keen observation to figure out what to do from there.
There's also an elite monster that you can find and battle throughout the game. The first time you can meet him, he's behind a door that you have no real need to go through as far as the main plot is concerned, but how could you possibly resist seeing what's beyond it? Right in front of you, there's the way to continue on the main quest. Just to the right, a great big door just fell open. If you don't want to go through that door, it's not the game's fault.
Tales of Symphonia doesn't beat you over the head with clues to the sidequests, but the signs are still there. It simply requires that you have the desire to explore the game's world for exploration's sake. If you count on the game to hold your hand, it'll do that and railroad you right through the main story with never a dull moment on the way. Even so, it's your own fault if you lack the natural curiosity to propel you down a sidequest instead. Just because this game's breadcrumbs aren't marked with giant floating yellow exclamation points doesn't mean they aren't apparent if you look for them.
Post by: KDR_11k on October 06, 2006, 06:00:16 AM
Post by: Kairon on October 06, 2006, 11:05:15 AM
I don't want the game to hold my hand, I want it to point out my choices. ToS never did that for me, as far as I knew there was only ever one choice for this WoW explorer and NPC-Lore hound: forward.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Infernal Monkey on October 06, 2006, 11:00:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.
Edit: Forgive me, I'm an old curmedgeon who loved FF6, hated FF7, and whose last enjoyable RPG experience was Paper Mario on the N64.
There's no possible way you can hate Skies for being cliched and then say you love a Final Fantasy game.
Post by: Kairon on October 07, 2006, 07:47:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal MonkeyQuote
Originally posted by: Kairon
I even hated Skies of Arcadia. Cliches abound in THAT overrated game from a console underdog too.
Edit: Forgive me, I'm an old curmedgeon who loved FF6, hated FF7, and whose last enjoyable RPG experience was Paper Mario on the N64.
There's no possible way you can hate Skies for being cliched and then say you love a Final Fantasy game.
Terra has no love interest. She's doesn't need to latch onto a man to establish her identity. That immediately makes FF6 IMMENSELY less cliched than 90% of the other games out there.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
P.S. I am hypocrite... the story I've been working on in my head for ages DOES have the two main characters as love interests for each other. I am cry.
Post by: wandering on October 14, 2006, 03:44:14 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on October 14, 2006, 11:02:09 PM
Post by: Smoke39 on October 14, 2006, 11:05:19 PM
