Post by: RickPowers on September 14, 2006, 08:40:37 AM
Post by: Dirk Temporo on September 14, 2006, 08:42:15 AM
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 14, 2006, 08:47:49 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on September 14, 2006, 08:49:39 AM
Post by: Smoke39 on September 14, 2006, 08:51:50 AM
Post by: ThePerm on September 14, 2006, 08:52:01 AM
Post by: Strell on September 14, 2006, 08:52:31 AM
Prediction: GC version has left handed Link. True followers will not get the Wii version.
Post by: Terranigma Freak on September 14, 2006, 08:52:44 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on September 14, 2006, 08:53:12 AM
I don't care because the reason makes sense, as opposed to normally where little details are excluded or changed due to the people involved not giving a crap or boardroom execs changing something for marketing purposes.
Ideally though you should be able to pick your hand. A left-handed person probably would prefer to swing a sword left handed.
Post by: mantidor on September 14, 2006, 08:55:18 AM
I don't care honestly since Im sure this will happen only for the wii version. Lets hope Nintendo considers giving a choice for lefthanded people in the game.
Post by: Smoke39 on September 14, 2006, 08:55:19 AM
Post by: AnyoneEB on September 14, 2006, 10:40:07 AM
Post by: Galford on September 14, 2006, 10:56:19 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on September 14, 2006, 11:07:49 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on September 14, 2006, 11:14:06 AM
Post by: Dozy Boy on September 14, 2006, 11:23:33 AM
Post by: jasonditz on September 14, 2006, 11:38:08 AM
Post by: RickPowers on September 14, 2006, 01:05:40 PM
Have you seen any pictures or video of ANYONE playing a Wii game left-handed? In fact, has there ever been a left-handed controller (save for the goofy one-handed PS1 controller)?
Giving someone the option of playing left or right handed would nearly DOUBLE the amount of QA time it would take to test the game, since you now need to go through everything twice, once in each configuration. Why? Because you have the potential of one small change cascading through all the code, and causing a bug that just doesn't happen playing right-handed. I can't see anyone spending the time and money to both implement and test such a feature, since we've all been conditioned to play games right-handed anyway.
Of course, the one exception to this is the Wii-Sports games, or other small mini-games, where the code is simpler, and the gameplay naturally lends itself to "handedness".
Post by: blackfootsteps on September 14, 2006, 01:18:28 PM
There better be an option, even accepting what you've said Rick I think there may be. Some DS games flipped the screen entirely depending on handed-ness. Surely that's a good sign?
Slightly off topic but do you other leftys plan to hold the Wiimote in your left or right hand? I'm so used to using an analog stick with my left that it may be weird to switch it now.
Post by: zakkiel on September 14, 2006, 01:34:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
No-brainer? Really?
Have you seen any pictures or video of ANYONE playing a Wii game left-handed? In fact, has there ever been a left-handed controller (save for the goofy one-handed PS1 controller)?
Giving someone the option of playing left or right handed would nearly DOUBLE the amount of QA time it would take to test the game, since you now need to go through everything twice, once in each configuration. Why? Because you have the potential of one small change cascading through all the code, and causing a bug that just doesn't happen playing right-handed. I can't see anyone spending the time and money to both implement and test such a feature, since we've all been conditioned to play games right-handed anyway.
Of course, the one exception to this is the Wii-Sports games, or other small mini-games, where the code is simpler, and the gameplay naturally lends itself to "handedness".
With respect, this is complete nonsense. You don't have to recode anything to let someone play left-handed for most purposes, Wii sports being an exception. Think about it.
Post by: RickPowers on September 14, 2006, 01:37:59 PM
Post by: AnyoneEB on September 14, 2006, 01:38:10 PM
I guess it comes down to: I'll figure it out once I actually try it.
Post by: blackfootsteps on September 14, 2006, 01:43:15 PM
Post by: RickPowers on September 14, 2006, 01:44:21 PM
Quote
There's a slight difference between the Link found in the Wii and GameCube versions of Twilight Princess. Have you been able to spot it?
The answer is in how Link holds his sword. Responding to questions at a Q&A session in Tokyo today, producer Shigeru Miyamoto stated that Link was initially supposed to be left-handed in the Wii version of Twilight Princess, like he is in the GameCube version. However, noting that more users will swing the controller with the right hand, Nintendo made Link hold the sword in his right hand just for the Wii version.
So there you have it. Link is right handed on Wii and left handed on GameCube.
Well, I'm fully expecting the Zelda fans to freak right the hell out now.
Post by: Strell on September 14, 2006, 01:45:25 PM
GC Zelda will be the "purist" version.
Post by: Smoke39 on September 14, 2006, 01:50:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
No-brainer? Really?
Have you seen any pictures or video of ANYONE playing a Wii game left-handed? In fact, has there ever been a left-handed controller (save for the goofy one-handed PS1 controller)?
Giving someone the option of playing left or right handed would nearly DOUBLE the amount of QA time it would take to test the game, since you now need to go through everything twice, once in each configuration. Why? Because you have the potential of one small change cascading through all the code, and causing a bug that just doesn't happen playing right-handed. I can't see anyone spending the time and money to both implement and test such a feature, since we've all been conditioned to play games right-handed anyway.
Of course, the one exception to this is the Wii-Sports games, or other small mini-games, where the code is simpler, and the gameplay naturally lends itself to "handedness".
This video has a guy using his left hand for a few seconds. It's right after the same guy was using his right hand, though, so maybe they just flipped the video for some reason. :/
And I don't buy that double QA time. You think they exhaustively test every conceivable control configuration in PC games that let you manually map every single function however you want?
Post by: Ian Sane on September 14, 2006, 01:54:23 PM
Ha! Another reason to buy the Cube version.
Post by: ShyGuy on September 14, 2006, 02:27:13 PM
Post by: mantidor on September 14, 2006, 02:30:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
So I was correct.
GC Zelda will be the "purist" version.
It has always been! even before this news
As a left handed I know the remote+nunchuck configuration is going to be very ackward for me. The less ackward configuration though would be remote in the left hand, because the stick is not difficult to manipulate with my right thumb, Ive done it with Pikmin 2, while trying to aim precisely in a game like Metroid would be hell for me if I try to use the right hand.
For Zelda this is not just the sword, is every single item used, from hookshot to the bow, its actually noticeable for any game that goes into first person, like Red Steel. The main problem is just a visual one, so it probably won't be a big deal, but I can't be sure, I have to play the games first. With Metroid is the same situation, maybe pointing and shooting would be ok, but in the game you use the grapple beam a lot, and its probable that pulling doors or shields with your right hand while Samus is using her left can be dissorienting or confusing.
Thats the thing with the remote, you really have to try it, no ammount of footage of people using the controller is going to make me know or understand how confortable and intuitive it would be for me, not even hands on impressions.
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 14, 2006, 02:34:12 PM
Same soul, different bodies, different brains. There's no reason he should have to use the same hand every time.
Post by: Mario on September 14, 2006, 04:11:52 PM
Post by: zakkiel on September 14, 2006, 05:56:12 PM
QuoteNo, you wouldn't flip anything. There's nothing magical about left hands that requires you to reverse anything, unless it's something like holding a baseball bat (and then only if the game is coded in a very limited way, so that it assumes everyone is swinging from the right). For something like Galaxy, MP3 or RS it doesn't matter at all which hand holds what - you still move the controller left to move left, and right to move right. As I said, think about it.
You're probably thinking it would be a simple matter of flipping the X axis or something, but it just wouldn't work that way.
Post by: OverHeat on September 14, 2006, 05:59:36 PM
As far as Link being right handed? Well, someone do me a favor. Pop ye olde original LoZ in your NES. Start a new game and go grab the wooden sword. What hand does he hold it up with? Yeeeaahhh, thats right... Now when he swings it.... I dunno... is he stabbing left handed or is he lifting up his tunic and... *shudder* well my point being here is that HA! Link is *actually* ambidexterous! He just chooses to fight with his left hand! Havent any of you people seen Princess Bride? *Link fighting a desperate duel with Ganon*
Ganon: "Why are you smiling?"
Link: "Because I know something... not even the players know..."
Ganon: "Oh? What is that?"
Link: "That I... am not left handed!!"
Just remember, it's not like they made him a pink haired female dwarf for crying out loud...
Post by: Athrun Zala on September 14, 2006, 08:26:31 PM
QuoteLOL
Originally posted by: Mario
I'm right handed but I would have happily adapted to use my left hand to feel more like Link. Now the game will lack soul.
I would've done the same
and Rick, the left-handed side was already programmed anyways (since until after E3, Link was left handed), but seems like there won't an option now....
Post by: wandering on September 14, 2006, 08:29:40 PM
Quote
Just remember, it's not like they made him a pink haired female dwarf for crying out loud...
Yeah, that IS much more unfortunate than the fact that they've switched Link's handedness.
(I will be sad if there isn't a choice - I was planning on swining with my left too.)
Post by: mantidor on September 14, 2006, 09:15:26 PM
ALttP disagrees with you, (except for the female part but it doesn't matter because as a japanese character he tends to be on the androginous side :P)
ok now seriously, I know Link's laterality is of course irrelevant, but its a really neat detail, and these are the kind of details that make the games so great, so its just not nice to see one of the most important features of Link go away, even though it makes perfect sense and we understand the reason behind it.
Now changing a game from right handed friendly to left handed friendly is not easy. The problem lies in little details that usuallly go unnoticed by everyone who just casually looks. As we left handed people have to learn the hard way, the world is made for righthanded people, so personally Ive discovered many little things that seem that have nothing to do with which hand you use but they actually do. First example, look at any pen with something written on it, if you hold it in the right hand you can read it, but if you have it on your left it ends up being flipped and thus unreadable.
That is a visual example, so its no big deal, but now lets take this, bags who have holes for earphones. If they are on the side (like the bag I use every day), the hole is in the right if you look at the front of the bag. Nothing that seems to be very important, right? no, as a left handed I grab the bag by its left strap first when Im going to put it on my back, since the hole is in the other side, if Im using my earphones and I try to put my bag in my back the cable tangles around my neck and chokes me (it happened to me twice ¬_¬ very embarrasing) and the same ackward moment happens when I take off the bag and Im using the earphones. Needless to say, the hole for the earphones is useless for me. Theres also the cable on the earphones, notice how if its the kind of earphones that share one single cable, this one always hang on the left side, it seems again irrelevant, until you find yourself in a situation when you are writting in a desk and using the headphones at the same time, since the cable is on the left, it constantly gets in the way of your writting, its just unconfortable there and you have to put it around the back of your neck to write without problems.
In games I had no problems, apparently laterality wasn't that important, but with the DS it changed. While playing Nintendogs I noticed a few things that weren't confortable. You have to walk your dog and he always does it from left to right, if I use my left hand, the hand covers the screen all the time, so I hadmissed presents dropped in the streets in some ocassions. The menus are also uncomfortable, the slide bar is on the right, so again my whole hand covers the items while Im looking at them.
This are very minor complains and theres a solution to overcome the potential problems, I certainly wont through away my Nintendogs copy in disgust, or my earphones, bag and pens for that matter, but it just shows that those details are really hard to see unless you actually test it. So Rick was right when he said that in order to make a game fully friendly for both hands its necessary to completly test it with both players in mind, otherwise something might scape the test, and what if its not a tiny irrelevant detail but a major thing? I didn't realize all the Brain Age footage Ive seen was left handed unfriendly until I grabbed my DS and notice that the game was going to end up being upside down for me, making it basically unplayable, in that case it was completly necessary for the game to have a left handed option or it wouldl just not work.
With the new controller who separates both hands, this inconvenients will be a lot more frequent, maybe it will be only minor stuff and nothing that seriously prevents left handed from controlling the game correctly, but Im still a bit concerned.
Post by: Caliban on September 14, 2006, 09:27:19 PM
Post by: blackfootsteps on September 14, 2006, 10:34:21 PM
Post by: WalkingTheCow on September 14, 2006, 11:06:32 PM
Hell, if nobody mentioned anything it would have taken me ages to notice, I'm sure. By the way I'm thrilled to be hearing these hands-on reports that say the new control set-up works as well as it apparently does.
Post by: WuTangTurtle on September 15, 2006, 12:11:57 AM
If you were planing on trying to be the first owner of a Nintendo Wii, well you lost. Apparently my sister told me on the TV show Ellen, they gave a kid a Nintendo Wii. He apparently has some vision problems and developed a way for him to see better by making clicky noises with his mouth. I dunno exactly how but my sis thought it was crazy, i thought giving him a Wii was crazy.
D@mn u Ellen, I'll never ever watch your show ever again......I mean i don't watch ur show......doh!
Post by: wandering on September 15, 2006, 12:46:38 AM
"Here, Nintendo is giving you - and I don't even know what this is. Here, I'll put this on your lap, and you can see if you can figure out what this is. (Reads card.) Okay, this is stuff that isn't even out yet. This is a Wii, and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess."
"Oh, wow, yeah, I heard about that on the internet."
Good PR move by Nintendo (although, as it was set up, you could really just barely see the packaging, unfortunatley. Not sure who to blame for that. Anyway.) Now if they can only get Oprah...
Post by: Mario on September 15, 2006, 01:11:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: blackfootsteps
So Caliban did Brain Age have a left handed option? I've been thinking of getting it.
It does.
Post by: mantidor on September 15, 2006, 06:10:11 AM
Post by: Kairon on September 15, 2006, 08:27:12 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: OverHeat on September 15, 2006, 09:31:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
"Just remember, it's not like they made him a pink haired female dwarf for crying out loud..."
ALttP disagrees with you, (except for the female part but it doesn't matter because as a japanese character he tends to be on the androginous side :P)
ok now seriously, I know Link's laterality is of course irrelevant, but its a really neat detail, and these are the kind of details that make the games so great, so its just not nice to see one of the most important features of Link go away, even though it makes perfect sense and we understand the reason behind it.
Now changing a game from right handed friendly to left handed friendly is not easy. The problem lies in little details that usuallly go unnoticed by everyone who just casually looks. As we left handed people have to learn the hard way, the world is made for righthanded people, so personally Ive discovered many little things that seem that have nothing to do with which hand you use but they actually do. First example, look at any pen with something written on it, if you hold it in the right hand you can read it, but if you have it on your left it ends up being flipped and thus unreadable.
That is a visual example, so its no big deal, but now lets take this, bags who have holes for earphones. If they are on the side (like the bag I use every day), the hole is in the right if you look at the front of the bag. Nothing that seems to be very important, right? no, as a left handed I grab the bag by its left strap first when Im going to put it on my back, since the hole is in the other side, if Im using my earphones and I try to put my bag in my back the cable tangles around my neck and chokes me (it happened to me twice ¬_¬ very embarrasing) and the same ackward moment happens when I take off the bag and Im using the earphones. Needless to say, the hole for the earphones is useless for me. Theres also the cable on the earphones, notice how if its the kind of earphones that share one single cable, this one always hang on the left side, it seems again irrelevant, until you find yourself in a situation when you are writting in a desk and using the headphones at the same time, since the cable is on the left, it constantly gets in the way of your writting, its just unconfortable there and you have to put it around the back of your neck to write without problems.
In games I had no problems, apparently laterality wasn't that important, but with the DS it changed. While playing Nintendogs I noticed a few things that weren't confortable. You have to walk your dog and he always does it from left to right, if I use my left hand, the hand covers the screen all the time, so I hadmissed presents dropped in the streets in some ocassions. The menus are also uncomfortable, the slide bar is on the right, so again my whole hand covers the items while Im looking at them.
This are very minor complains and theres a solution to overcome the potential problems, I certainly wont through away my Nintendogs copy in disgust, or my earphones, bag and pens for that matter, but it just shows that those details are really hard to see unless you actually test it. So Rick was right when he said that in order to make a game fully friendly for both hands its necessary to completly test it with both players in mind, otherwise something might scape the test, and what if its not a tiny irrelevant detail but a major thing? I didn't realize all the Brain Age footage Ive seen was left handed unfriendly until I grabbed my DS and notice that the game was going to end up being upside down for me, making it basically unplayable, in that case it was completly necessary for the game to have a left handed option or it wouldl just not work.
With the new controller who separates both hands, this inconvenients will be a lot more frequent, maybe it will be only minor stuff and nothing that seriously prevents left handed from controlling the game correctly, but Im still a bit concerned.
Regard to LttP: HA! Someone caught that! I was beginning to wonder.....
Regard to "little details": Him being left handed doesnt bother me in the slightest. What is probably ticking me off about this whole thing is that, I have been a hard core die-hard Zelda fan since day one. Now people are looking at me like I am less so just because I dont have a problem with a right-handed Link. I am not naming names, just rest assured it has happened, and multiple times.
Regards to your earphones: Cripes man!! Be careful! Have you attempted to perhaps puncture a hole yourself on the other side? Or would that not make a difference?
Regards to writing: Learn an asian language and forgoe english. ;D
But ultimately, I guess my point was lost. *sigh*
So let me slap it in this post in a really obvious manner; It. is. a. VIDEO GAME. If Link's left or right handedness bugs anyone to the point of "How dare they!! I will NOT buy their evil game!!! They have betrayed my very soul!!", you might wanna take a break from gaming/the internet for a little while and reposition yourself to understand what is really important in life. Unless you are making some serious wagers with shady guys in greasy suits over this stuff, it really isnt that important. If you dont like it thats fine. You wanna gripe about it in a forum, that fine too. Thats what they are here for!
I hear "Bleh! Thats sucks!" I hear "Meh, whatever." I hear "I dont really give a crap." But when folks go totally overboard...WOW. Honestly, I fear for your bloodpressure. Us Nintendo fans gotta watch out for eachother. If you fall into the "overboard" category, seriously, take a break for a while...sidenote: It would be very, very cool if Nintendo had the "left or right" handed option. As our collegue Mantidor has demonstrated it would be nice if that option came with everything we use. So why is Nintendo suddenly chosen to be the ones to change the world here?
Post by: vudu on September 15, 2006, 10:10:21 AM
QuoteI'm confused. Are you referring to when Link turns into a bunny when he goes to the Dark World before obtaining the Moon Pearl? If so, you guys are way off.
Originally posted by: OverHeatQuoteRegard to LttP: HA! Someone caught that! I was beginning to wonder.....
Originally posted by: mantidor
"Just remember, it's not like they made him a pink haired female dwarf for crying out loud..."
ALttP disagrees with you, (except for the female part but it doesn't matter because as a japanese character he tends to be on the androginous side :P)
But I imagine this can't be what you're talking about, because I expect that at least mantidor knows better (I can't say how big of a fan of Zelda OverHeat is.
Post by: SixthAngel on September 15, 2006, 11:18:43 AM
Post by: Kairon on September 15, 2006, 11:23:23 AM
As a die-hard Zelda fan, I'm not bothered at all that Link is right-handed here.
... But I'm buying both versions of the games anyways, so I'll still have my south paw Linkie! <3
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: RickPowers on September 15, 2006, 11:41:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
Nintendo has always been about gameplay first and story/continuity second. This fits the new motion sensitive gameplay better so they changed the game. The people here who are Nintendo fans should be happy about it. Getting stuck in a quagmire of tiny details from previous versions has killed lesser franchises.
Normally I'd agree, but this is the first time where there will be two versions of the same game with actual, tangible differences. I'm all for making the story fit the game, but this is a case where they simply aren't being consistent about it, which seems sloppy.
As for obsessing over the details, that's what makes good games great. Look at Metroid Prime ... having the visor as your HUD was good enough, but they went a step further towards pulling you into the game by making the visor an object that light reflects off of and things can splatter on. Those details are what people love about the game. Similar details are what we love about Zelda, and his being left-handed was one of them. That they are now treating that detail with (for lack of a better word) disrespect, is just disappointing.
I don't care enough to buy all, or to only buy the GameCube version ... I'll buy the Wii version because it is the superior GAMING experience of the two. That said, it's just a shame that this particular dash of flavor was watered down.
Post by: JonLeung on September 15, 2006, 11:46:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: vuduQuoteI'm confused. Are you referring to when Link turns into a bunny when he goes to the Dark World before obtaining the Moon Pearl? If so, you guys are way off.
Originally posted by: OverHeatQuoteRegard to LttP: HA! Someone caught that! I was beginning to wonder.....
Originally posted by: mantidor
"Just remember, it's not like they made him a pink haired female dwarf for crying out loud..."
ALttP disagrees with you, (except for the female part but it doesn't matter because as a japanese character he tends to be on the androginous side :P)
Link's hair appears pinkish/purplish in A Link To The Past. Plus, he appears dwarfish. Go ahead and check.
See here, in the Animal Crossing textures. That's a page on VGMaps.com that I've been meaning to change or remove altogether because it's mostly useless. Not totally useless now, apparently.
Post by: Donutt007 on September 15, 2006, 11:51:28 AM
Post by: AnyoneEB on September 15, 2006, 12:17:07 PM
Post by: RickPowers on September 15, 2006, 01:20:27 PM
Post by: wandering on September 15, 2006, 05:38:10 PM
Lefties will probably be more comfortable with the sword in the right. In real life, of course, swinging a sword is complex stuff...but in this game, the motions required will be a lot simpler than those required to manipulate the analog stick.
Quote
Nintendo: do more of these awesome giveaways on TV! Hit all the shows! GOGOGO!
Yes, good move on nintendo's part.
....though too bad for the blind kid that TP doesn't have voice acting!
Post by: mantidor on September 15, 2006, 06:03:10 PM
heh, my dislike for the wii version happens for other reasons, I really don't mind that much which hands link uses (thats why I made the thread in the funhouse
Im not being serious), sorry for the confusion, Im not flipping over this as much as it looks like, my comments are regarding the more general problem of laterality in games which arose with the DS and now with the wii, not the specific case of TP.Post by: Nick DiMola on September 15, 2006, 06:47:57 PM
Post by: wandering on September 15, 2006, 06:54:27 PM
Post by: SixthAngel on September 15, 2006, 07:29:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Normally I'd agree, but this is the first time where there will be two versions of the same game with actual, tangible differences. I'm all for making the story fit the game, but this is a case where they simply aren't being consistent about it, which seems sloppy.
As for obsessing over the details, that's what makes good games great. Look at Metroid Prime ... having the visor as your HUD was good enough, but they went a step further towards pulling you into the game by making the visor an object that light reflects off of and things can splatter on. Those details are what people love about the game. Similar details are what we love about Zelda, and his being left-handed was one of them. That they are now treating that detail with (for lack of a better word) disrespect, is just disappointing.
I don't care enough to buy all, or to only buy the GameCube version ... I'll buy the Wii version because it is the superior GAMING experience of the two. That said, it's just a shame that this particular dash of flavor was watered down.
Details like Samus reflection on the visor have no correlation to gameplay though. With a motion controller the handedness of the character on screen becomes much more important for immersion purposes. I think a better comparison although a bit extreme would be Metroid's change to first person. It had always been a third person game but because the gameplay didn't transfer well it was changed. People complained at the time but few would argue that the game was not better for it now. Nintendo can add in what is necessary by not being completely tied down by past conventions especially small ones like this.
Post by: zakkiel on September 16, 2006, 07:27:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
I don't really care that Nintendo switched Link to a righty, but I don't really understand why it was necessary. I mean yeah Link's stance would be backwards, but really the motions are going to be the same lefty or righty. For continuity reasons Link should've been kept Lefty, I really think righty's would've gotten over the fact that it was backwards.
Thank God someone else understands this. The only difference in playing Link with the controlle in the other hand would be that the sword would be displaced slighty on the screen, which probably would not be enough to throw anyone off very much. If you swung left, you would still want Link to swing left. If you swung right, you would still want Link to swing right. No axis inversion, animation change, nada.
Post by: mantidor on September 16, 2006, 10:17:30 AM
Now the enemies are left handed, even Midna is mirrored. It makes sense, just switching Link would have made necessary to change the animation as well, because right handed fighting right handed has different motions. So they just did it the easy way, they flipped everything.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 16, 2006, 10:23:23 AM
Post by: AnyoneEB on September 16, 2006, 11:06:37 AM
On the handedness of the enemies, I had not really thought of that. Fighting left-handed against a right-handed opponent is different from lefty vs. lefty or righty vs. righty, and, if they are really doing free range sword movements, would require a significantly increased amount of AI work for monsters to be able to handle either (I think).
Post by: vudu on September 18, 2006, 09:43:21 AM
QuoteThat's true; if you swing left, Link would swing left.
Originally posted by: zakkielQuote
Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
I don't really care that Nintendo switched Link to a righty, but I don't really understand why it was necessary. I mean yeah Link's stance would be backwards, but really the motions are going to be the same lefty or righty. For continuity reasons Link should've been kept Lefty, I really think righty's would've gotten over the fact that it was backwards.
Thank God someone else understands this. The only difference in playing Link with the controlle in the other hand would be that the sword would be displaced slighty on the screen, which probably would not be enough to throw anyone off very much. If you swung left, you would still want Link to swing left. If you swung right, you would still want Link to swing right. No axis inversion, animation change, nada.
However, what if a move in the game required you to swing outward-in? For a righty, that would be from right to left. For a lefty, that would be from left to right. See the potential problem?
Post by: zakkiel on September 18, 2006, 10:01:23 AM
Post by: vudu on September 18, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
Someone's stabbing you in your chest. (Ouch.) A right handed-person it going to knock their opponent’s weapon away by swinging the remote from right to left (towards the center of their body). However, if you're holding the remove in your left hand and you swing towards the center of your body (left to right) the game thinks you're swinging away from the point of attack. Nothing happens.
I realize this is Zelda, and this particular scenario probably isn't going to arise, but I'm just coming up with a quick example how it's not just a case where Nintendo can reverse the model and be done with it.
Post by: JonLeung on September 20, 2006, 08:02:38 AM
Reminds me of the part where you flip the dungeon upside-down in Majora's Mask...
If they really did flip the whole world, maybe there isn't an option for either hand, and maybe the GCN version also has Link being a righty.
Post by: Smoke39 on September 20, 2006, 08:30:38 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on September 20, 2006, 08:36:02 AM
Post by: mantidor on September 20, 2006, 08:53:29 AM
Miyamoto said GCN Link will be left handed.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 20, 2006, 09:28:37 AM
What would really turn me off about such a change is the obvious lack of giving a damn demonstrated in such a move. The game was originally designed a certain way with everything layed out deliberately. To make such a blanket change would significantly alter the original intention. A company that truly cared wouldn't want to do something like that.
The more info revealed about Twilight Princess the more I'm drawn to the Cube version.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 20, 2006, 09:35:15 AM
Post by: Strell on September 20, 2006, 09:36:44 AM
Post by: JonLeung on September 20, 2006, 09:43:22 AM
I'm hungry for some Nerds candy now... >_<
Post by: Smoke39 on September 20, 2006, 09:46:42 AM
Post by: JonLeung on September 20, 2006, 09:56:11 AM
Judging by the Ocarina Of Time beta stuff, I would say that what Zelda game developers originally intend may not be what they find they really want by the end of it. Doesn't seem like much to stress over. It's not like they flipped the world upside-down or anything.
Post by: zakkiel on September 20, 2006, 10:05:02 AM
QuoteSure. That would be a case where the small displacement does matter. But as I said, in virtually all games announced thus far - including Zelda - that's not the case.
Okay, how about this?
Someone's stabbing you in your chest. (Ouch.) A right handed-person it going to knock their opponent’s weapon away by swinging the remote from right to left (towards the center of their body). However, if you're holding the remove in your left hand and you swing towards the center of your body (left to right) the game thinks you're swinging away from the point of attack. Nothing happens.
Post by: King of Twitch on September 20, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
Post by: Kairon on September 20, 2006, 10:41:36 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: RickPowers on September 20, 2006, 11:23:10 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: AnyoneEB
Which poses an interesting question: why even bother to make Link righty, then?
Forgot all about that pesky Nunchuk there, didn't you? If you're holding the Wiimote in your left hand, where does the Nunchuk go? It's not designed to be used in either hand ... it's pretty might a left-only device.
Oh, and they didn't mirror the entire world. That would screw up the strategy guides and gameplay counselors to no end. No, they just flipped the character models, which is pretty easy.
Post by: Kairon on September 20, 2006, 11:32:32 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Forgot all about that pesky Nunchuk there, didn't you? If you're holding the Wiimote in your left hand, where does the Nunchuk go? It's not designed to be used in either hand ... it's pretty might a left-only device.
...whut?The nunchuck is perfectly symettrical along it's long axis... you could hold it in your right hand if you wanted to.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: ThePerm on September 20, 2006, 11:44:34 AM
"changing it from a right handed game into a left handed game may cause bugs and be difficult, its not as easy as flipping an x axis"
the problem with that logic is..they just did the opposite..changing it from a left handed game into a right handed game. I'm betting there will be an option...as there is in most DS games.
Post by: ThePerm on September 20, 2006, 11:52:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: MJRx9000
.seye eht no drah noitnem ot ton ,gnisufnoc eb dluow tahT ?won ssecnirP thgiliwT :adleZ yas xob eht lliW
yeah it would be hard on the eyes
Post by: RickPowers on September 20, 2006, 12:09:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
i havnt read all the posts, but i think some of you are overlooking something when they try to make the point
"changing it from a right handed game into a left handed game may cause bugs and be difficult, its not as easy as flipping an x axis"
the problem with that logic is..they just did the opposite..changing it from a left handed game into a right handed game. I'm betting there will be an option...as there is in most DS games.
You definitely should have read all of the posts. By flipping the character models, you still only have ONE option to test in the game, because it's the default option. If you offer the option to flip handedness on the fly, you now have two options you have to test for, possibly even more, depending.
For example, the fishing game: In a right-handed configuration, everything the Wiimote does would be the same in a left-handed configuration. However, if it were possible to hold the Nunchuk in your right hand, you would now have to account for the reeling action with two motions ... clockwise (right handed) and counter-clockwise (left handed). (As a small aside, is it even possible to get a left-handed fishing pole? I don't think I've ever seen one.)
In fact, for the most part, it's that Nunchuk that causes all the problems. Using it like a shield, for instance. A right-handed person would move it up and to the left to put the shield in front of their face. A left-handed person brings it up, but to the right. For this example, you would have to reverse just the y-axis, but in the fishing example, because of the circular motion, both poles need to be reversed.
Post by: Kairon on September 20, 2006, 12:13:41 PM
Seriously, I can't see any way that the nunchuck probably is offering any difficulties at all if someone were to switch hands.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: IceCold on September 20, 2006, 05:30:15 PM
QuoteWhat? I really don't see how it "significantly" alters the original intention..
What would really turn me off about such a change is the obvious lack of giving a damn demonstrated in such a move. The game was originally designed a certain way with everything layed out deliberately. To make such a blanket change would significantly alter the original intention. A company that truly cared wouldn't want to do something like that.
Post by: zakkiel on September 21, 2006, 01:25:16 PM
QuoteI would be surprised if the game even cares whether you're reeling at all. I bet you could just pump it in one direction. And certainly there's no reason why you can't reel clockwise with the left hand or vice versa. If you're thinking that the model would compel you to reverse the rotation, think about it this way: the game input will be up, in, down, forward, repeat. This is what it will look for to determine rotation (or the opposite sequence if rotating the other way). And that sequence doesn't change even if you flip everything left to right - it's not even reversed.
For example, the fishing game: In a right-handed configuration, everything the Wiimote does would be the same in a left-handed configuration. However, if it were possible to hold the Nunchuk in your right hand, you would now have to account for the reeling action with two motions ... clockwise (right handed) and counter-clockwise (left handed)
QuoteEvery time you have to turn right in a dungeon, you'll be thinking NOOOO! I SHOULD BE TURNING LEFT!!!!!!
What? I really don't see how it "significantly" alters the original intention..
Admit it. You know you will.
Post by: Guitar Smasher on September 21, 2006, 04:55:47 PM
As for mirroring the world, I don't think it's something to get worried over. You haven't played the game yet, so it's not going to seem out of place. Whichever version you play first, you will instinctively know as the correct one.
Honestly, some of you need to get your priorities checked. Yes, we expect this to be the best Zelda ever, and that means it has A LOT to live up to. But tell me, would OoT be any less good if Link was right-handed in it? Just wait and play the game before you start getting your panties in a knot.
On another note, have we heard any new details regarding the game since E3, other than the controls? It comes out in less than 2 months, so it's about time we'd be hearing something.
Post by: WalkingTheCow on September 21, 2006, 05:08:07 PM
Why care? There aren't going to be glitches because of the mirroring. Nintendo already did that a couple months ago and have more time still to make sure it didn't create problems.
It doesn't matter if Link's sword is in his right or left hand. The gameplay is the exact same and anybody who's throwing a fit about the blasphemy and how untraditional it is isn't exactly looking at the big picture. The game looks incredible.
I do understand concerns over the fundamentals of the Wii controls (although I am optimistic). I just don't understand all the concerns about mirroring. None of that stuff sounds like it's going to be a problem. Even to the designers intents. . . A total mirroring leaves the design intact, just flipped around. Ya gooses.
Post by: SixthAngel on September 21, 2006, 06:21:16 PM
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2006, 07:44:12 PM
Quote
Even to the designers intents. . . A total mirroring leaves the design intact, just flipped around.
Ever seen a drawing that's been flipped? They tend to be a bit "off", you know?
Post by: Guitar Smasher on September 21, 2006, 07:53:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
heh.Quote
Even to the designers intents. . . A total mirroring leaves the design intact, just flipped around.
Ever seen a drawing that's been flipped? They tend to be a bit "off", you know?
That can be easily changed. They have been working on this since E3, after all.
I'm going to ask you guys to stop complaining about a problem that you have no clue exists. Wait for the game, and play it. If you find a problem, then you'll have a right to complain.
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2006, 07:59:39 PM
(I don't think the flipping will be a problem and am planning on buying the Wii version...but there's always room for some doubt...)
Post by: Mario on September 21, 2006, 08:08:25 PM
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2006, 08:10:16 PM
Post by: Mario on September 21, 2006, 08:19:28 PM
Post by: mantidor on September 21, 2006, 10:08:31 PM
I don't think it can top Majora's Mask though.
Post by: wandering on September 21, 2006, 10:35:38 PM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 21, 2006, 10:55:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
Im sure it will be a good game (at least for right handed people :P), it would take a lot of wrong decisions to make it bad, and the GC original still exists which is another positive aspect.
I don't think it can top Majora's Mask though.
I really hope that is not the case, I sure wouldn't want a game worse than the crap known as Majora's Mask :-P
Post by: WuTangTurtle on September 21, 2006, 11:02:43 PM
Post by: denjet78 on September 22, 2006, 12:39:51 AM
And don't tell me that we'll adapt. This is a completely different universe than teaching one thumb to push buttons and the other thumb to slid a control stick around. These are entire arm motions and a level of accuracy that is going to take years for some people to relearn. I can tell you right now it's going to take me a lot of practice to be able to hit anything in the game with the bow and arrow if I'm going to have to use my right hand to do it.
I don't care if Link was originally left or right handed. I only care that if there isn't a left handed option, that I might not even be able to play TP on Wii at all. At least not without a serious handycap.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 12:49:47 AM
Post by: denjet78 on September 22, 2006, 02:57:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolution
Denjet it may be best to wait before coming to any conclusions about a handicap, it will just have to be a wait and see thing (I doubt Nintendo would limit left handed people in the game anyway). Not only that but I found it odd when mentioning the mirrored graphics Miyamoto used "mode" so maybe that indicated there is more than one "mode" of play?
Im not all too worried about Zelda. I mean I'm sure that the only reason they flipped it was to make it feel more immersive... for right-handed gamers that is. If the game contains "modes" for both flipped and normal play then really, I'll be exstatic. And to be honest, I don't see why it wouldn't. But everyone seems to be reporting this as if it's final. That there won't be any way to play it except mirrored. That idea alone, truely and honestly, makes me feel disrespected. They'll flip the entire game just to make right-handed people feel better? I don't care if I seem petty or small but I feel slighted by that.
And that goes for any other game on Wii that may only have right-handed controls.
It's a real and honest problem though, and one that I hadn't even thought about. I took it for granted that most if not every game would automatically come with the option to choose which hand you wanted to play with when needed. I tend to forget that I'm in the minority here.
Post by: Shift Key on September 22, 2006, 03:36:30 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
IGN is reporting that Link is officially right-handed now, probably to make the swordplay more intuitive. I expect people to start tossing out expletives and phrases like "travesty" any moment now ...
To annoy all those southpaws (sup billykins), BURN THOSE LEFTHANDERS AT THE STAKE
But seriously, point me out the bandwagon so I can steer clear of it. I don't care.
Post by: JonLeung on September 22, 2006, 05:03:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: VGrevolutionQuote
I don't think it can top Majora's Mask though.
I really hope that is not the case, I sure wouldn't want a game worse than the crap known as Majora's Mask :-P
Boo! I hope you're kidding. Majora's Mask was GREAT. That game had many sidequests that made you really care about the other characters in the game. The time system provided a cool challenge - you had to complete sidequests to the point where you could get a mask which would survive the trips back with you in time to prove that you did it. I wouldn't want a time system like that in every game, but Majora's Mask was awesome, and the villain was pretty cool. Most non-Ganon/dorf final bosses in Zelda games suck (I'm looking at you guys, Oracle bosses!), but Majora is at least comparable to Ganon in terms of badassness. Maybe more so. Anyway, I don't like how this game is always in the shadow of Ocarina Of Time (I've heard people dismiss Majora's Mask simply because it looked like Ocarina Of Time - which is an incredibly shallow reason, IMO)...
OMG, my Zelda fanboy side is showing. But really, Majora's Mask isn't bad at all, and I don't yet have any reason to believe Twilight Princess will be bad. Mirroring, handedness, supposedly patched-on controls...those aren't "reasons". (Ignoring the CD-i Zelda games,) I don't think any Zelda game has ever been bad, so do you really think this "spiritual successor" to Ocarina Of Time could be?
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 05:16:18 AM
Post by: Nick DiMola on September 22, 2006, 05:42:15 AM
As for Twilight Princess, I'm sure even with some of the changes this is going to be hands-down-no-competition the best Zelda game of all time. I can't wait to play it and I hope the Wii controls make it even more immersive than before. Just 2 months left!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 05:54:00 AM
. In regards to TP being the best Zelda game, I'm going to have wait on that, my personal favorite is STILL Link to the Past followed by Wind Waker followed by OOT. It does seem promising though when you think it has been in development LONGER than OOT and that is not taking into account it utilizing the Wind Waker graphical engine which OOT did not have the luxury of.
Post by: mantidor on September 22, 2006, 07:20:33 AM
*waits for Kairon to say Miyamoto is god and Aunoma ruined Zelda*
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 07:30:11 AM
Post by: JonLeung on September 22, 2006, 07:34:03 AM
Ocarina Of Time was a step into 3D. (I dare say it was a better transition that Mario's, whose Mario 64 wasn't as brickalicious or Koopa Troopa-stompy as I would've liked.) After that, each game had to be distinctly different.
Majora's Mask had the three-day time system and mask transformations.
Wind Waker had the cel-shaded look and lots of sailing.
Twilight Princess, at least on the Wii, has Wii controls. And for those opting for the GameCube version, at least in both there's the Twilight Realm and Link's apparent lycanthropy (werewolfism). It won't fall victim to just being a better-looking Ocarina Of Time...though I guess that's not exactly a bad thing.
Post by: couchmonkey on September 22, 2006, 07:35:28 AM
Having said that, I think it's too soon to make assumptions about this game. Once we play the actual game, we may feel differently about the "generic" side of it. I've already seen some interesting things in the Twighlight Realm, particularly Wolf Link's ability to sense invisible people and objects. Maybe they're just ghosts (still cool) but maybe there's more going on.
What if Link could sense things that are happening in the ordinary realm while he's in the Twighlight Realm? Forget gossip stones, imagine being able to listen in on people's private conversations from the Twighlight Realm.
Post by: Ian Sane on September 22, 2006, 08:21:09 AM
If you don't consider Majora's Mask a real Zelda for that reason then you probably shouldn't consider Zelda II a real one either. My view on what makes a "real" Zelda is if EAD made it.
So I believe that would be:
Legend of Zelda
Adventure of Link
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Wind Waker
Twilight Princess
The other games are made by Capcom so I don't consider those part of the "main" series. They're still fun though and since the gameplay is generally the same I would consider them "true" Zeldas, just that they're a spin-off series by a different dev like Super Mario Land or Metroid Prime. Still good. Still worth your time. Just an offshoot of the main series.
And I'm sure that the Wii controls are not the only new thing about TP. Zelda games always have some new ideas to make them feel distinct from the others and back when this was just a Cube game unique ideas would have been introduced.
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 09:15:02 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on September 22, 2006, 09:22:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: couchmonkey
I see your point Mantidor, in fact I somewhat second it in that, the parts of the game that Nintendo is pushing are not that important. 45-minute Hyrule, zillions of hours of gameplay, tons of dungeons: these matter, but there's more to it than that.
Having said that, I think it's too soon to make assumptions about this game. Once we play the actual game, we may feel differently about the "generic" side of it. I've already seen some interesting things in the Twighlight Realm, particularly Wolf Link's ability to sense invisible people and objects. Maybe they're just ghosts (still cool) but maybe there's more going on.
What if Link could sense things that are happening in the ordinary realm while he's in the Twighlight Realm? Forget gossip stones, imagine being able to listen in on people's private conversations from the Twighlight Realm.
Says Couch who is excited about PS3, yet worries about Zelda TP being generic
. I still fail to see the point where TP is on the verge of being generic, everything I have seen seems quite the contrary. Whether it be the fascinating twilight realm with link as a wolf, the flying sections (I want to see how those are handled), horse back battles, and no doubt other unique additions. To say Zelda TP will be generic when it has had so much time in development seems quite unfair, it is obvious they are trying to make it the best Zelda ever. I also don't get how more dungeons, cool fights, a long quest etc are anything BUT exciting news for TP if they are designed well. It looks like it is shaping up to be the ultimate Zelda game, taking what was great about previous games and adding even more.
Post by: Kairon on September 22, 2006, 09:34:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor
*waits for Kairon to say Miyamoto is god and Aunoma ruined Zelda*
This is why no matter what you guys argue about, TP will be worse than OoT. It may be grander, it may be bigger, it may be longer, it may be more epic... all those things you guys hate or love or whatever... but it won't be as magical.
It's hard for a Nintendo fanboi to be disappointed about a Zelda game before it's come out, but Mantidor and I have both managed to do that. For different reasons of course.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Athrun Zala on September 23, 2006, 07:17:06 AM
Quotejust because it isn't directed by Miyamoto?
Originally posted by: KaironQuote
Originally posted by: mantidor
*waits for Kairon to say Miyamoto is god and Aunoma ruined Zelda*
This is why no matter what you guys argue about, TP will be worse than OoT. It may be grander, it may be bigger, it may be longer, it may be more epic... all those things you guys hate or love or whatever... but it won't be as magical.
that's a pretty shallow statement.....
but in any case, we WON'T KNOW that until it's released and we PLAY the game.....
Post by: Strell on September 23, 2006, 07:52:00 AM
Nothing tops the first Zelda anyway. Back on the NES.
"It's dangerous outside! Take this!"
I cried at the emotion.
Post by: Mario on September 23, 2006, 09:52:38 AM
While i'm waiting for the one minute rule to me up, i'll add that if Minish Cap is a "spinoff" game then hand me more of those since it's ten times better than LTTP.
