Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: nemo_83 on June 01, 2006, 02:22:40 AM
Title: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nemo_83 on June 01, 2006, 02:22:40 AM
I think the Wii Tennis shows how Wii games should control. People want things to control simply. Instead people came back from E3 talking about how Red Steel had you use the remote to activate prerecorded moves. They said Metroid needed an option to lock the cross hair and camera together like a PC shooter. And then there was Zelda which virtually everyone I have either read or listened to on various podcasts has said the game controlled like puke with the remote. I try to keep in mind that the game was made for another controller but we may be able to control the Wii version with a pad instead of the wiimote setup (in case people just can't get the hang of it). In a perfect world Nintendo would go back to the drawing board after people said the game felt like trying to rub your stomach and pat the top of your head at the same time, but I'm thinking about the future; how will the first Zelda built from the ground up play on Wii (and god I hope its trees look better).
You ask me, pare Zelda down to what it was originally about. You move this kid around on screen hiding behind bushes and rocks, swinging a sword, shooting a bow, throwing a boomerang, and laying bombs (exploring). The game should control as simply as the original games. If you want to swing the sword, you should be able to swing the remote (like Wii Tennis) rather than having to work the analog stick, the nunchuck sensors, button combos on two hemispheres, targetting, and shield attacks with the remote. I don't want more stuff to memorize, I want to simply be given the sword and let me go into the field and play and learn from my experiments; don't put me through any hand holding. Part of the fun of first playing NES games was just jumping in. First time I played Super Mario Bros. I swung the controller up and down and left and right. I find myself doing it these days in Metroid Prime 2 when that bounty hunter butch (see how changing a letter can give a new meaning to your insult) won't move her butt a little faster.
If you need to use the bow, the perspective should not change, keep the camera above the characters; keep the space out unless the player manually changes the view (optional first person shooter mode as well, though I don't believe it should be in a Zelda game, people demand the perspective and the ability to move while in it wouldn't be bad; I would guess most of your fps gamers would play the game this way). When you aim with your camera above the action you aim from left to right and the character automatically takes care of the height of the shot. I'm sure certain puzzles would require you to lower the camera and explore spaces better (but as far as combat goes, the 3/4 view is best). There could even be a novice mode allowing players to simply click on what they want to shoot at (like Warcraft). I want the camera under control during combat so the remote can be used for sword control.
Thinking about this game, I've been envisioning the first Wiigend of Zelda looking toon shaded with more Final Fantasy CC super deformed characters than Twilight Princess' realistic style. But Miyamoto has said the next game will be radically new (what if he means mature?).
I've always been a fan of the idea of having a full Zelda adventure with co-op. Halo sold me on it, I has to haves it; give me the Four Sword.
I've said it before, but I would like to see all three of the series' main characters in an adventure together (over the internet or LAN) against a greater evil (like in Paper Mario 3). Each character would have a sword but there would be items that are Link only (boomarangs) or Gannondorf only (lance). Then there would be weapons two characters could switch out; Link and Zelda could both use bows, or Link and Gannon can both wield heavy swords/axes/etc. Each character would have their own instrument allowing them to talk to animals. Perhaps they could even continue their lechanthropic theme as well.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Nick DiMola on June 01, 2006, 02:51:23 AM
Quote Originally posted by: nemo_83 I've said it before, but I would like to see all three of the series' main characters in an adventure together (over the internet or LAN) against a greater evil (like in Paper Mario 3). Each character would have a sword but there would be items that are Link only (boomarangs) or Gannondorf only (lance). Then there would be weapons two characters could switch out; Link and Zelda could both use bows, or Link and Gannon can both wield heavy swords/axes/etc. Each character would have their own instrument allowing them to talk to animals. Perhaps they could even continue their lechanthropic theme as well.
I think that is a really cool idea. I've always wanted to play as Ganondorf in an actual Zelda game. I thought Four Swords was awesome(the gba original screen made it slightly annoying) and I would love to see another with a more advanced idea, like the one you described here nemo.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nickmitch on June 01, 2006, 06:05:39 AM
That could work, but the story would have to have Link and Gannon constantly bickering. There'd need to be a hefty ammount of FMV to show how these two would team up. They'd also probably have to fight at the end. But yeah, I would love to see that.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Frozen Atlantic on June 01, 2006, 06:54:17 AM
That would require Link to speak. Which he doesn't do.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Requiem on June 01, 2006, 07:38:02 AM
Not really....
Link speaks in all his games, although he isn't given a voice.
I honestly don't like the idea at all... It's not zelda at all. However, if Link were to gain an ally, maybe a coop adventure mode or something, I feel it would be more suited to Zelda.
Exploration is key in the franchise, so coop would be a natural addition.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2006, 08:03:01 AM
I don't like the idea of Ganon as a good guy. Bowser works because he's really not that evil of a guy. He kidnaps the Princess but he's somewhat of a goof. He's not a serious villian. Ganon is. Ganon is pure evil. There's nothing funny or charming or goofy or cute about him whatsoever. To have him team with Link would be as out of place as having Space Pirates team up with Samus or Dracula team up with a Belmont. You can't have Ganon helping Link fight a greater evil because Ganon IS the greater evil. It's like teaming up with Satan.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Kairon on June 01, 2006, 08:13:57 AM
Maybe instead of shoe-horning the Zelda franchise into this paradigm of yours, you should create an entirely new IP with characters who can be custom designed to fit the game perfectly.
New IPs please.
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: mantidor on June 01, 2006, 08:19:29 AM
I agree with Kairon, nemo always has the most bizzare ideas for Nintendo franchises.
I have never liked the idea of sword fighting with the gesture. We have this notion that its more intuitive, but the truth is that doing such realistic mapping of controls would make the battles really hard and boring (good bye spin attack or impossible but awesome jump attacks like ganon's death in tWW). Button for main attack plus gestures for some special moves, like TP rev version, is what I think the best control idea for sword fighting.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Hostile Creation on June 01, 2006, 11:48:01 AM
I also agree with Kairon. And Ian Sane.
Also, "Link speaks in all his games, although he isn't given a voice." Not really. He has a voice (the shouts and screams and heavy breathing, etc (lol Nintendo Innuendo)), but he never says anything. No words, beyond "Hey" and stuff like that.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: ThePerm on June 01, 2006, 11:59:57 AM
why not create a zelda-esque game with new characters?
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: vudu on June 01, 2006, 12:09:28 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Hostile Creation Also, "Link speaks in all his games, although he isn't given a voice." Not really. He has a voice (the shouts and screams and heavy breathing, etc (lol Nintendo Innuendo)), but he never says anything. No words, beyond "Hey" and stuff like that.
I think Requiem was referring to when NPC's directly ask Link a question and then there's a brief pause and then they act like he responded by saying "I see ..." or something to that effect. It's implied that Link spoke.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nemo_83 on June 01, 2006, 12:23:49 PM
First, I don't think Ganon is evil, he is much more the equal of the other two characters; yes it has made for some great tales in the past with him as the villain (and he can still be the darkest character) but evil is boring. I really don't think they portrayed him as a stereotype in Wind Waker, he had his reasons.
I'm just suggesting one game try bringing what Four Swords did to the big screen over the internet, and with a full scale Twilight Princess adventure (just built with co-op puzzles and boss fights). Link next to Ganon is like having Wolverine fighting next to Magneto in Age of Apocalypse, it would be a game that people could not say is too much like a past game.
Rather than FMV, I want conversations to happen in real time (so if I want I can just walk away at any point during the conversation). Surely enough the players will play the characters as fighting amongst each other, it is part of your individual story (I'm not a fan of FMV). I would want to make a Zelda with all three characters within the same age range. We don't need an explanation as to why they are together, the game should just open with these three orphan kids who have been growing up together in the woods. I want to get out into the Hyrule field as soon as possible. I still don't know what the higher evil should be but I think a mask should be involved (hell why not bring back the magic masks to explain the animal transformations?). I have lots of ideas for mount control and multiple riders as well. Imagine Ganon turns into a huge hog which both Zelda and Link can ride and shoot bows from. I want to do new things with the old tools, not really expand the weapon menu much; most weapons would be simple combat weapons any character could pick up from common enemies (and maybe every now and then come upon an enemy who drops something cool like a big hammer, a grappling hook, chain mace, a piece of armor you fancy, etc). The weapons that are individual to the characters would be thematic; only Link could pull the master sword from the stone for example (it isn't a weapon you need for a puzzle but it has its strenghts in general combat).
Spin attacks could still be done simply by doing something like holding down the B button. I would like to be able to shoot an energy blast out of the master sword in a future game.
And I think it would be cool if they used a mic to mask the voices of the playable characters during gameplay and animate the characters while they speak.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Zach on June 01, 2006, 12:23:51 PM
I dont really see link and gannon having an adventure together. I could see link fighting with gannon if say, while they were fighting, some mysterious creature attacks them, and they both have to fight the creature together to survive. Something that might be cool is to have them both separately working towards the same goal (for different reasons), and they would run into eachother every now and then in a dungeon.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Arbok on June 01, 2006, 04:52:15 PM
I'm with Ian. The "greater evil" concept works with characters like Bowser and Eggman, as another example, but not Ganon. He's the type of character who I could see normal enemies of Link putting aside their differences to fight, not the other way around.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Requiem on June 01, 2006, 09:06:11 PM
Hostile -- look at Vudu's post (good looking out)
Quote Originally posted by: Kairon Maybe instead of shoe-horning the Zelda franchise into this paradigm of yours, you should create an entirely new IP with characters who can be custom designed to fit the game perfectly.
New IPs please.
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
I couldn't agree more.
Does anyone else agree that there should be more adventure coops? Even if the "adventure" is something akin to God of War?
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nemo_83 on June 02, 2006, 03:44:17 AM
We could start a whole new thread on original adventure games for Wii. I want an adventure where I play as a sentient plant that is able to leech off animals and control them. The character would take over the animal's body and replace its fur with grass, flowers, and moss. Like in Okami (or the spirit in Princess Mononoke) where ever you step flowers will bloom. As you run leaves, pollen, and petals would shake off the tree. After turning its victim into a corpse it leaves it to create new life (the giant chea pets will remain where you leave them for the rest of the game). The plant could use tenticles for long range attacks, swing through forests, and grab characters. It could swim, it could go subteranean, and it could devour a bird and fly if you want.
On Zelda, I'm feeling for a medium between the single player game as it has stood for nearly twenty years and the action adventure MMO that people continuously say they want in the Zelda universe. I think it would be wise to take baby steps (four sword) to learn how to keep the game design while adding more players. If there were ever a true Zelda MMO it would have to involve armies of hundreds of characters going to battle.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Ian Sane on June 02, 2006, 08:02:48 AM
"Does anyone else agree that there should be more adventure coops?"
I think co-op play is fantastic and sadly has become far too uncommon. But honestly it doesn't work to well for an adventure game because those kinds of games are long and it's too hard to find someone willing to play a game that long with you. The ideal co-op games have usually been arcade type games where you can beat the game in one sitting. That suits having a friend over which is when a co-op game is going to work best.
The concept can work for a longer game provided its level-based. Then it's easier for you and friend to just jump in and play your favourite level. You're not tied down to a long quest then.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: jasonditz on June 02, 2006, 08:14:53 AM
How about if the Ganon character isn't revealed to be Ganon until the end, then a fight ensues?
Granted, that's kind of like the whole Zelda thing in OOT, but it could work.
Or what if Ganon has a kid that teams up with Link as a sort of Oedipal rebellion thing, but deep down isn't a particularly nice guy in his own right.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: jasonditz on June 02, 2006, 08:17:00 AM
Hunter: The Reckoning was my favorite co-op adventure for the Cube.
The sequel never made it over, but it wasn't nearly as engrossing anyhow.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: ShyGuy on June 02, 2006, 08:20:33 AM
Hunter the reckoning was a fun little coop game for the cube. Baldurs Gate Dark Alliance is excellent as well.
Ian is right, adventure games are harder to coop. I'm really interested in the possible coop/helper ideas Miyamoto has for Super Mario Galaxy
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Requiem on June 02, 2006, 08:22:10 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane "Does anyone else agree that there should be more adventure coops?"
I think co-op play is fantastic and sadly has become far too uncommon. But honestly it doesn't work to well for an adventure game because those kinds of games are long and it's too hard to find someone willing to play a game that long with you. The ideal co-op games have usually been arcade type games where you can beat the game in one sitting. That suits having a friend over which is when a co-op game is going to work best.
The concept can work for a longer game provided its level-based. Then it's easier for you and friend to just jump in and play your favourite level. You're not tied down to a long quest then.
Well, if the Wii suceeds at enticing non-gamers maybe we will see more adventure-coops where a family member can play along with you.
All I know is, whenever I play a game that is fun and graphically interesting, my brother's like to watch. I just wish there was one insanely fun game that blows open the coop genre so my brothers and I can play together.
Maybe FF:CC?
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Ian Sane on June 02, 2006, 08:39:26 AM
"Or what if Ganon has a kid"
Oh God. Are you suggesting GANON JR?
"Well, if the Wii suceeds at enticing non-gamers maybe we will see more adventure-coops where a family member can play along with you."
Well I have brothers who like games so it's not really an issue of having no one around. It's just hard to coordinate everyone's schedule for an epic adventure.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: jasonditz on June 02, 2006, 11:51:41 AM
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane "Or what if Ganon has a kid"
Oh God. Are you suggesting GANON JR?
Hey, those Gerudo girls are really cute... why shouldn't Ganondorf get married?
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Kairon on June 02, 2006, 12:04:47 PM
But the Gerudo only birth a male every 100 years or so.
... That would make Ganon Junior a chick...
A HAWT GERUDO BABE!!!11!!ONE!!1
...but how do you feminize a hypermasculine name like Ganondorf?
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 02, 2006, 12:04:54 PM
The Legend of Zelda: Concerto of Regret, starring Frodnonag.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Zach on June 02, 2006, 02:13:19 PM
Well, it would be better if the name wasnt a feminized form of Ganondorf. I would imagine that in that type of situation, link would not know that the kid was Ganon's untill the very end, it would be very hard to get link to trust any prodgeny of Ganon.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Kairon on June 02, 2006, 05:13:25 PM
The problem with a female Ganon is that it introduces issues of Gender into the conflict between Link and Ganon.
That'd be like making Sauron of LOTR fame a hawt skin-exposing Demon Queen. It would destroy the straightforward, simple, innocent and feel-good good vs. evil vibe.
Like, if Darth Vader was hawt and female. Doesn't work, ya know?
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: jasonditz on June 02, 2006, 08:32:58 PM
No one's saying make Ganon female, just that maybe he could have a hawt daughter.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nemo_83 on June 02, 2006, 09:24:01 PM
It makes sense that if a new Link is born and a new Zelda is born, then a new Ganon is born. The villain could be the old Ganon who is resurected.
Title: RE: Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Ian Sane on June 05, 2006, 07:47:39 AM
"It makes sense that if a new Link is born and a new Zelda is born, then a new Ganon is born."
I always assumed that while there are different Links and Zeldas, Ganon is the same being throughout the entire series. Though that theory is somewhat goofed up by Ganon appearing in Ganondorf form in Wind Waker. Originally it was more like he was a man named Ganondorf and then in Ocarina of Time transformed into Ganon and thus has remained as such ever since. But Wind Waker goofs that up (along with a billion other things). I guess Ganondorf is his "human form" and he can change between those forms at will. Still it's pretty obvious that he's the same Ganon throughout. I don't really see a reason for him to be reborn. He certainly never needed to resort to that previously.
A variation of the idea could be that one of those one Gerudo males born every 100 years has been born but is not actually Ganon.
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: Kairon on June 05, 2006, 08:08:32 AM
Ganon can't really be tied into the Gerudo race, because Gerudo don't exist in the other Zelda games.
I prefer to think of Ganon as an incarnation of evil that is reborn, along with the incarnation of the hero and the incarnation of the Sages and head sage, the Princess. This way Ganon actually dies in each Zelda game, giving a very complete sense of black-and-white good-defeats-evil happy-ending that makes for a very wholesome experience.
Either way, no female Ganon! And Nemo, make your own intellectual property and characters instead of stealing Miyamoto's! Grah!
~Carmine M. Red Kairon@aol.com
Title: RE:Simple (literal) controls vs. Motion activated commands (and the first true Wiigend of Zelda)
Post by: nemo_83 on June 06, 2006, 12:22:07 AM
Kairon, I'll never get to work on Zelda so what is the point of keeping secret what I wish to see experimented in future Zeldas. Honestly I never would have thought transforming into a wolf needed to be a Zelda game, it could have really been something different, but they seem to have adopted this theme, for at least one game, and it seems to work.
Ian, Wind Waker did screw up a lot of small things (Zoras), but I think it showed Ganondorf is reborn; and eventually one will be reborn following the stories furthest in the future of the chronicles (which would be part 2 I guess?).
Still, there could be a story where the Ganon of WW is resurected when a future Link pulls the sword out.
