Title: RE: quack quack
Post by: Ian Sane on May 12, 2006, 10:15:56 AM
Having a cursor actually kind of ruins it for me. In the original Duck Hunt you didn't have a cursor. You just had to have good aim. A lightgun game shouldn't have a cursor. Otherwise it becomes more of a mouse game than a lightgun game.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 10:17:51 AM
maybe there will be an option to turn it off? I'm just wondering where the dog is
Title: RE: quack quack
Post by: Louieturkey on May 12, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
Looks like fun to me, two player duck hunt and clay shooting and alien saucer shooting. Probably could be as many as four players I'm guessing.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Artimus on May 12, 2006, 10:34:50 AM
The dog isn't there because the ducks aren't. This is a shooting demo, not duck hunt. I'm sure they'll be similar, but this isn't actually Duck Hunt.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: jasonditz on May 12, 2006, 10:36:49 AM
yeah, I'm hoping if Duck Hunt does have a cursor there's a way to shut it off.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 10:45:42 AM
there are ducks..there are two videos
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Renny on May 12, 2006, 10:58:32 AM
Quote Originally posted by: IGN Since the sensor bar is placed above or below the television, players point at the bar itself, not at the screen. For this reason, the game doesn't allow pinpoint accuracy with the Wii-mote, as players have to steer a cursor rather than aiming at a point on-screen, which is a far more natural approach.
According to this hands-on of Red Steel, you point at the bar as if it were the center of the screen, thereby losing the ability to perform LOS aiming at the screen. I don't see why the game couldn't calibrate the pointer to the center of the screen, and make the necessary adjusments itself so that you could aim directly. I hope this is fixed, otherwise the pointing function is nearly useless.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: RickPowers on May 12, 2006, 11:05:53 AM
I'm pretty sure that I can state with absolute certainty, that the above criticism of the sensor bar is complete and utter horseshit.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 11:07:03 AM
yeah.. wouldnt it just adjust for y as y + 1 ft...aye?
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Renny on May 12, 2006, 11:12:34 AM
Quote Originally posted by: RickPowers I'm pretty sure that I can state with absolute certainty, that the above criticism of the sensor bar is complete and utter horseshit.
Ha. Thanks for the quick clarification. I read IGN for the first time in awhile, and it's the same old story. I'm now still extra pissed about the Super Monkey Ball 2 and P.N.03 reviews.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Artimus on May 12, 2006, 11:22:18 AM
Let's see...IGN who has played it...Rick who hasn't.
Sorry, but I'll trust the people who have the know. Red Steel is getting "great, but needs control tuning" remarks across the board.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 11:48:06 AM
apparently from what i heard..the demo's don't have a calibration option...however..the final games will. As far as the sensor goes....its not calibrated right if you have to point it at the sensor.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: MaryJane on May 12, 2006, 11:54:06 AM
if you can't do LOS(Line of Sight i had to scratch my head for a good 15 seconds to think of what it stood for lol) pointing with the Wiimote, what the hell would be the point, and whomever said y = y +1 your exactly right that wouldn't be too complicated to do, but how would the bar know how big ur t.v is and exactly where it is in position to the screen? that would take orientation points... maybe when you first boot up the Wii we'll have to do that. I don't mind, cuz it would really piss me off if where i'm pointing on screen isn't actually where the shot or whateverthehellelse i'm trying do isn't taking place.
Cursor = Stupid, if dual analog controls don't require it, neither should a pointer which is supposed to be it's replacement. If the final version (the one in stores) of the Wii doesn't do LOS pointing I will be super pissed cuz the other 2 offerings in the console war don't really appeal to me either.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 12:01:15 PM
as far as how would you know where the center of your screen...well the sensor is at the bottom of the screen...your supposed to point in the relative center of the screen. Therefore the distance from the sensor to the center of the screen should be half of the screen. So twice that would measure the whole screen.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ShyGuy on May 12, 2006, 12:02:02 PM
Honestly, I think some of this sensor griping coming out of E3 is due to the interference of all wii stations and electronics and the fact that the demoers are standing a few feet from the station, rather than sitting on a couch 8 feet away.
I could be wrong though
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 12:05:04 PM
ooh...goddamn the rf radiation that would begoing through their bodies, ugh
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Ian Sane on May 12, 2006, 12:37:12 PM
Just the fact that there seems to be any complaints about the controls isn't encouraging. It might be fine in the end but I would feel a lot better if there was universal praise. I wouldn't be surprised if interference from other demo units was creating problems but now I have to wait until final reviews before I can commit to a Wii purchase. We don't know if there's a problem or not and that kind of uncertainty sucks.
I'm getting a feeling that coding games like this isn't easy and we might see some really sloppy third party junk as a result. It doesn't look like rushing games is going to turn out very well at all on the Wii.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 12:44:10 PM
rushing games never turns out good
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Ceric on May 12, 2006, 12:49:22 PM
Ian your already committed and you know it. (Know if the video would just load...)
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 12, 2006, 03:23:51 PM
The controller isn't a magic wand that always knows it's precise yaw,pitch, and Lateral X,Y,Z position. It would be really cool if that was the case, but it isn't.
There will be no LOS shooting games. The technology doesn't allow it. And no, It isn't lack of calibration that is preventing LOS.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 12, 2006, 03:32:38 PM
Ian has been apprehensive about the Wii technology being used for gestures instead of direct control. Unfortunately, this is the only choice in many cases. If you make a throwing motion with the controller, the controller can't accurately translate the action to the software in a way that the software could project a virtual object based on the trajectory of the real throwing motion.
The controller doesn't know the difference between tilt and lateral movement. It detects both, but not discreetly.
The IR bar allows 2D pointing within a certain range.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 03:38:08 PM
good programming would allow it. if it doesnt have it..then its all in the programing. If i had the ability..i could program some analog actuators...the truth is...your arm can only move in certain ways...
your wrist does not have 360° motion it only has 180° motion..the joint in your elbow prevents you from turning any further.
it is impossible to move your arm in a 90° angle unless your wrist is turned up.
if your wrist is turned down...your arm moves at a 45° angle
if your wrist is turned any where from 0° to 180° that affects your range from 45° to 90° on an elbow turn
if you understand this....then yes...you can program a perfect game
also the position of your shoulder would be determined by the xy position of your controller.
the truth is the controller is limitless..your arm is not
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 12, 2006, 04:00:54 PM
The controller doesn't give you enough information to make a LOS game even with the best programmers working on it.
Your anatamy lesson is irrelevent. I can hold the controller in any position or angle I want to.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Renny on May 12, 2006, 05:09:56 PM
You can play with it up your ass, too, for that matter. But there's a reasonable expectation that you'll handle the controller the way the game instructs you to. Can a little bit of safe assumption compensate for the remote's lack of information? I'm curious about why the remote can't emulate a light gun. What is it about the IR positioning that doesn't allow that level of accuracy?
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: mantidor on May 12, 2006, 05:46:30 PM
Im actually happy theres some negative comments, not only universal praise wouldve sound very, very fishy, but it also gives developers additional feedback. There wasnt universal praise for the analog stick as far as I know when it was first introduced, and only when Mario 64 hit we could understand better how it worked. For the types of games that are "traditional", theres definately going to be an adjustment period.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 12, 2006, 06:08:42 PM
The IR is read with enough accuracy and precision, but it is a 2D measurement. The position of the controller in relation to the receiver isn't really known. If you had one IR emitter at each of the four corners, it might be possible, though. Not that the controller can handle that either. I've never seen it, of course.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Edfishy on May 12, 2006, 07:37:31 PM
I've really never liked the idea of LOS shooters on the Wii anyway, I'd rather have the Wiimote act as a much more intuitive and sensitive analog stick. I would however prefer if I could set the center of the screen as the deadzone, but they could easily just have the deadzone pull along with you as it did in Super Mario DS.
However, getting tilt coordinates and programming mobile deadzones is a little advanced for your average third party developer trying to shove out a product. It does worry me that the technology may be a bit too difficult to perfect for publishers, and we might be in for a repeat of the DS: A lot of games that do not use the touch screen for anything besides basic menus etc.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 07:48:36 PM
but your forgetting about the actuators Jensen. There are two on the inside of the controllers..they measure forward-backward motion, up and down motion, and twist-turn motion....
to create a calibration and to accurately read motion one would do this. One would aim the controller at the center of the screen. An crosshair taking up the entire screen would appear. Then the person would press A, then a dialog would come up and tell the person to point at the sensor bar, and then also maybe the bottom edge of the tv. This would give the Wii a measurement of your tv in inches or centimeters, or whatever measurement it likes to uses.
now one thing we know is tyheres a limit on resolution 480p. so it knows this between the bottom or top of the screen and the center are 240 pixels, from the center to the left or right of the screen are 320 pixels. Line of site calibrated.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Caliban on May 12, 2006, 07:56:13 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Ian Sane In the original Duck Hunt you didn't have a cursor. You just had to have good aim.
LOL, back in the day (in 87 or 88), in my house, in an empty room, we had this small TV that had a nice curved screen, so I found out a little trick when playing Duck Hunt to get all hits without aiming at each target. But I'm not tellin' ya lol.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 08:08:22 PM
x=left to right y=up and down z=forward back a=180° x tilt b=180° y tilt c= 180° z tilt
Calibration series 1 (center of screen) calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b,c) = 0,0,0,0,0 Calibration Series 2 (sensor bar) calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b) = .0001, 10.98,.0024,.0001,0 Calibration series 3 (bottom of screen) calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b) = .0002, 9.72,.0024,.0001,0 Calibration series 4 (right center of screen) calibration cordinate(x,y,z,a,b) = 8.988, .0001,.0024,.0001,0
and heres the math for you :P
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 12, 2006, 08:15:07 PM
and actually thinking about it....if the revmote had two actuators..one in the front of the controller and one in the back it could determine its tilt and yaw just by determine the differences in x, y, and z distances between the two sensors
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 12, 2006, 09:18:27 PM
The accelerometers can't accurately detect more than 3Gs of force. Quickly move the controller, and the calibration is messed up. The axis perpendicular to gravity will drift. Two of the rotation axes can be very accurately measured when the controller is mostly still. Lateral position, and rotation perpendicular to the force of gravity, cannot be measured absolutely.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 13, 2006, 07:36:10 AM
3 g forces is alot, 3 g forces is the mostly standard limit of amusement park rides...now i am aware that remote is goign to feel alot of motion..and a quick swingwill give the controller more then 3 gs of motion....but if your not moving the controller more then 3 gs...which i doubt you will considering you need very precise movements then it would be fine. From what I hear it has like 30 levels of sensitivity(which is what the n64 joystick had i beleive) which should be perfect.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Renny on May 13, 2006, 07:46:30 AM
Not for a momentary force.
I still don't see why the absolute position of the controller relative to the screen couldn't be extraplotad from the 2D information of the IR sensors and the rotational imformation of the accelerometers, following some kind of simple calibration test. Watching the various videos from the show floor, it looks like the accelerometers are very accurate.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 13, 2006, 07:47:37 AM
exactly
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: OverHeat on May 13, 2006, 09:10:16 AM
Thanks for the links, Perm! Correct me if I'm wrong, but that Red Steel thing was the only article I have read where they say you have to point at the bar. Isn't it also true that everyone is saying that, for the most part, all the Nintendo games are playing like dreams and the 3rd party stuff needs a little work, with the exception of Madden? If you think about it, the Madden folks have probably had the easiest time with it. They dont have to code out game AI and who knows what else they are just "borrowing" (they said they hated the word port, so I am sidestepping it) from existing Madden games. That means that pretty much all of their time can be devoted to calibrating the Wiimote.
Also, I believe it was even right here at PGC where it was stated that actually Metroid DID have a sensitivity option. I think it was called "advanced". It lets you minimalize the motions you had to make. And Retro did say that there would be calibration options in the final game, so I have so say I think most companies will be doing that. Just makes sense. Also, pointing at a bar wouldnt be very fun, OR immersive. Everyone from the show floor is saying that it IS fun and immersive. The four hour lines kinda prove that, dont they?
I am most certainly not worried.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 13, 2006, 10:23:57 AM
Here is the press release on the "pointing" functionality:
PIXART TEAMS WITH NINTENDO FOR SENSOR TRACKING TECHNOLOGY FOR Wii™ CONTROLLER Pixart’s Tracking Sensor Technology Provides Quick, Responsive Play Experience on Wii Remote May 11, 2006. PixArt Imaging Incorporation (PixArt), a market leader in CMOS sensor SoC (System-On-a-Chip) and related application semiconductors, today announces a strategic relationship with Nintendo Co., Ltd., to provide object tracking technology for Nintendo’s new-generation gaming controller, the Wii Remote. PixArt’s premium tracking technology will enable Nintendo to present innovative interaction gaming controllers for its new-generation gaming platform, Wii.
PixArt’s Multi-Object TrackingTM engine (MOT sensorTM) technology can track multiple objects in an unbelievably quick and responsive way. As a result, Nintendo can enable its new gaming controller to interact with people by tracking the movement of the Wii Remote. The playing experience will be unprecedented, exciting and easy, even for young children or older people who cannot operate the traditional gaming controllers.
“PixArt’s technology enables a quick, dynamic play experience,” commented Genyo Takeda, Senior Managing Director/General Manager, Integrated Research & Development Division, Nintendo Co., Ltd. “With PixArt’s technology, Nintendo will usher in a new era of video games.”
“It is PixArt’s pleasure to partner with Nintendo, a technology leader, to launch the most powerful and pleasing solution for a gaming platform,” said Sen Huang, Chief Executive Officer of PixArt. “The Multiple-Object TrackingTM engine (MOT sensorTM) has the highest performance ever in the market, and teaming with Nintendo means a gaming experience that is truly intuitive and inspiringly easy.” “In the world of interaction, every realistic operation can be simulated in a computerized game. Through play of such simulation, any person can learn very quickly and efficiently in a virtual way. Integrated tracking technology from proven vendors like PixArt will enhance the gaming experience for the overwhelming majority of all-generation gamers.” said Sen Huang.
About PixArt Founded in July 1998, PixArt Technologies specializes in the design, research and production of CMOS image sensors. PixArt has extensive experiences in analog, image sensor and image processing IC design, and is one of the leading global providers of CMOS image sensors. Pixart have four main product lines, 1. Standard Raw Data Image Sensors, specs ranging from 20K pixel PAS109 QQVGA up to 3M pixel PAS5311 QXGA. 2. Image DSP IC solutions for mobile camera applications. 3. Optical Mouse, including a new Laser mouse co-developed with OPDI Denmark. 4. Intelligent Sensor SOC Solutions, applications range from embedded twin turbo 8051 MCU's PAC107 sensor, USB CIF/VGA PC Camera to the new Motion-Tracking sensor. These four product lines add up to a 95 M US dollar revenue in year 2005, making Pixart the largest CMOS sensor design company in Taiwan, Listing on Taiwan Stock Exchange (Taiwan OTC 3227), Please visit www.Pixart.com.tw , for more information on Pixart.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: SgtShiversBen on May 13, 2006, 10:30:54 AM
Actually Ian, the reason that there is a cursor on there is because not everyone wants to play it with the gun pointing at the screen. Sure it makes it feel alot more immersive, but not everyone likes doing that. Also, there was TONS of interference there [when I was playing Red Steel, it went all stupid] because of all the Wii's going crazy, the cellphones and all that. It's just technology that needs to be a little bit more worked and everything.
But, although you do hear negative things about it, it was sure as sh!t fun to play and I am REALLY hoping to pick up this badboy at launch.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: RickPowers on May 13, 2006, 12:14:57 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Artimus Let's see...IGN who has played it...Rick who hasn't.
Sorry, but I'll trust the people who have the know. Red Steel is getting "great, but needs control tuning" remarks across the board.
I don't doubt that the controls need work, but the sensor bar is not the culprit. I'm positive that you'll be able to tell Wii if you placed the bar above or below the screen, and the games will take that into account. IGNs comments probably came from a controller that was miscalibrated, and thus, blamed the problem on the wrong problem.
So I'll repeat ... you do NOT have to aim the controller at the sensor bar. You aim the controller at the screen, exactly how you would expect to. IGN is the ONLY website that complained about this detail, so despite my having not played with the machine, I know enough about the technology to know that they were simply wrong.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Requiem on May 13, 2006, 01:29:31 PM
JEnsen the controller is a magic wand that sense everything about it. The sensor bar sensors its position. The Gyroscopes sensor its tilt or rotation. The accellerometers sensor its movement.
I don't see why this is so complicated to understand. The only reason why it messed up in the demo was because of either coding or calibration. The Wiimote is perfect for what it has to do.
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 13, 2006, 01:55:02 PM
y = mx + b
Title: RE: quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: ThePerm on May 13, 2006, 02:02:24 PM
the idea behind my logic is..you purposeley miscalibrate it...so that it is off by just enough that your actually pointing at the screen
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: Jensen on May 13, 2006, 02:22:03 PM
ThePerm: I totally understand you logic. If the controller were to stay mostly in the same spot, it would work pretty well.
I'm not exactly sure how the IR stuff works but it looks like there is an IR "light" on each end of the "sensor bar", and the CMOS camera in the controller is tracking them.
If you want to move over a couple of feet, so you aren't directly in front of the TV, the two IR lights would appear closer together, but they would also appear closer together if you stepped back a few feet. The accelerometer would sorta know which of these movements you made, but the accuracy would drift.
You could probably do it with 4 IR lights, one at each corner of the screen, but they'd have to be on the same plane as the surface of the screen.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: zakkiel on May 13, 2006, 06:19:37 PM
That's almost certainly false. The way the controller knows it's relative closeness to each sensor is by comparing the the time it takes for each of the signals to reach it, I would guess by wave interference. While moving to the side would make it less accurate (because lateral changes in the control sensor would have less impact on the ratio of the distances between the controller and each IR source) it would not be confused with moving backwards.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: eurai on May 14, 2006, 12:43:09 PM
I had a chance to play this demo at e3 and, no, the remote needn't be pointed directly at the sensor bar in order for its movements to register properly; it'd otherwise be pretty danged counter-intuitive.
On that note, having the cursor helps a heck of a lot considering that the sensivity of the Wii remote is very high (as was the case in each demo I played: table tennis, tennis, Zelda) and requires quite a bit of acclimation.
Title: RE:quack quack: Duckhunt bitches
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on May 15, 2006, 06:20:42 AM
Quote Originally posted by: zakkiel That's almost certainly false. The way the controller knows it's relative closeness to each sensor is by comparing the the time it takes for each of the signals to reach it, I would guess by wave interference. While moving to the side would make it less accurate (because lateral changes in the control sensor would have less impact on the ratio of the distances between the controller and each IR source) it would not be confused with moving backwards.
They wouldn't use IR for true position tracking since it would require the controller to remain pointed at the IR bar.
