Post by: Dolphin64X on February 28, 2003, 10:56:23 AM
Before the launch of the GameCube, Nintendo said that they had designed the console to be as developer-friendly as possible. They have remained the only console manufacturer to stay focused on making games. And what has it gotten them? A labeling of "kiddy," a loss of sports games, a tarnishing of stellar sales. But it has gotten one thing more.
Game developers are falling in love with Nintendo and their GameCube. The game developers, the people who really matter, are becoming converts of Nintendo.
Examples? Gladly:
Sega. As Nintendo's former rival, they have become one of its greatest supporters. Sonic, their beloved mascot, is Nintendo exclusive. As I believe Sega's strategy was to let each development studio focus on one console in order to maintain their single console roots, this explains why each console gets different games and few ports. Sonic Team, AM2, Overworks, and others all appear loyal to the GameCube. While some teams choose to focus on other consoles, it can be argued that their most important ones focus on the GameCube. I believe that the GameCube is getting the best of their support, and the other teams can only join Nintendo as Sega games continue to sell best on Nintendo's console.
Capcom. This one hardly needs explanation. Shinji Mikami, one of the most important people at Capcom, has fallen head-over-heels for Nintendo. Aside from working on Zelda games, he is supervising five games, all of high quality, that are likely to be GameCube only. Let's count off their franchises: Resident Evil: GameCube exclusive. Megaman: only console getting a new one is the GameCube (I believe). Devil May Cry: I may not be correct on this, but I believe I remember hearing the designer saying that now they would make it for the GameCube, if they could. Dinosaur Crisis: Xbox, but at the same time, who cares? Street Fighter: all consoles, currently. Did I miss anything? Capcom may be giving sequels to other consoles, but their new franchises are for GameCube, the franchises that will be popular two years from now.
Namco. Once an outspoken Nintendo-hater, they have become one of their greatest allies. As one of the three components of the Triforce, they are quite close to Nintendo, and are already pushing quite a few games towards the GameCube. And let's not forget about Soul Caliber II, which premiered for the GameCube at Spaceworld 2000.
Squaresoft. Again, they were publicly feuding with Nintendo for years, but are now reforming ties. Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles, while arguably a spinoff, shows more innovation than the past three numbered Final Fantasies combined. Seikien Densetsu is being revived for the GameBoy Advance, and Square is likely to port their Super NES RPG's to the system as well, after their sales on the Wonderswan. Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, as I hear it, is quite good as well. I've even heard rumors of Final Fantasy XII being available for the GameCube.
Enix. While they should be classified along with Square now, I'll refer to them seperately, for the purposes of this discussion/rant/educated and informative editorial. While nothing significant appears to be coming from them in the near future, they also have nothing against Nintendo, as they have repeatedly stated that they would make games for the highest-selling console.
Konami. Ah yes, Konami. Just weeks ago I was furious at their lack of support for the GameCube. And now, a Metal Gear for the GameCube, with more significant games shown at E3? What happened? Intelligence. Just over a year ago, I remember Hideo Kojima, creator of Metal Gear, saying he would never put a game like Metal Gear Solid on the GameCube because of its audience (although he did say he was interested in making games for it). And now we finally get their most lucrative franchise! Has Kojima become tied to Nintendo? Perhaps he has. And let's not forget their great GameBoy Advance love, with 6 Castlevania titles a year.
A last company to remember would be the unnamed companies, those yet to come into their own. These are companies like Game Freak, Silicon Knights, Retro Studios, and Rare, all of which are nurtured by Nintendo into great developers and then let free. I remember reading, quite recently, that it is not Nintendo's policy to buy developers, but instead to foster talent among new studios by funding them and setting them in the right direction. After they can stand, they are let free, and their loyalty to Nintendo (as well as their now-great games), is insured. With the exception of Microsoft and Rare, this is an excellent strategy. Of course, if Microsoft buys every studio once they are let loose, then we may have a problem. But that is another topic for another day.
The people who shape the industry, the game developers, are slowly but surely turning to Nintendo. With a focus on games and developer friendliness, Nintendo is winning back the important Japanese support that can truly turn the tides of this war. While some may wish that Nintendo would outright buy developers to win their support, they present a great console and true attitude, and win over developers without spending a cent (or yen, as it may be).
As of now, most third-party support is tied up in the massive userbase of the PlayStation 2. After all, 50 million users are hard to ignore. Therefore, it is understandable that we see most games go by the wayside of the GameCube. Third parties can hardly ignore the loss of sales they would see by putting games only for the GameCube. But a quiet revolution is occuring. The developers who have been in this industry the longest, the true masters, are turning to Nintendo and becoming allies. An unhappy artist is a poor artist, and third parties are letting important titles go to the GameCube.
As they say, a new system means a clean slate. If Nintendo can truly launch competitively, I believe we will see the third parties flock to Nintendo, the one company that cares about games. We could be witnessing the downfall of the old system, and, to paraphrase a writer, the Return of the King.
Glorious times are upon us. As we recieve new, interesting titles from the third parties, we must keep in mind that it is only the beginning, that these game designers are forming the roots of a new loyalty to Nintendo. The next generation wars will see the old against the new, the greats of Konami, Capcom, Squaresoft-Enix, Namco, Sega, and Nintendo against the careless commercialism of Sony and Microsoft. Keep faith, for it is truly a good time to be a Nintendo gamer.
One last thing: Thanks for the great editorial, Rick, which inspired this. Although I do my fair share of speculating, I have to concur on many of your points.
Edit: Whoah. I just spent a good twenty minutes thinking I'd have to redo this-I got an error message when I clicked "Post," then went back and it was all....deleted.
Thank goodness it actually posted!
Post by: Hostile Creation on February 28, 2003, 11:24:37 AM
Post by: AlphaDragoon2002 on February 28, 2003, 11:30:57 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on February 28, 2003, 11:36:14 AM
Post by: The Omen on February 28, 2003, 11:42:29 AM
Post by: Gamer Donkey on February 28, 2003, 03:38:27 PM
Anyway if an earlier board about Ninty doing fine in the long run was correct, then it would make perfect sense that Ninty is winning over developers rather than buying them.
In the immortal words of the Beatles: "Money can't buy me love."
Post by: Dolphin64X on February 28, 2003, 04:45:25 PM
"And now we watch as the young studio first sets out on its own. As it leaves its nest it must be careful, for predators are everywhere willing to snatch it up (coughMicrosoftcough). Where shall its journey take it?"
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 01, 2003, 04:52:47 AM
N-Sider.com: Industry Problems Week Day 5: Nintendo
That article states almost exactly how I feel. When I wrote that Nintendo needed to embrace Sony's policies if it wanted to sell more, this is what I meant, and this is what I truly believe. The industry is, as it stands, being destroyed by the great idiocy of the general public. Yes, it is optimistic in some ways (as is my opening post,) but I can only take such a brief journey away from reality. (Or maybe I'm just having wild mood swings...)
I really can't anticipate what will happen if things continue on this way. I hope beyond hope that Nintendo's core is enough to support them, because the day in which we are their only buyers may not be too long in coming. If that were to happen, if Nintendo was totally dropped from the public's perception, then I fear we have reached the Ragnarok, the Apocalypse. After all, what can be greater in the decline of western morality than the refusal of Nintendo? (I kid, I kid.)
Really though, if this continues to magnify, I don't know where the industry will be at. The industry continues to grow, and games are becoming more mainstream, so it is perhaps unfortunate that we can't have a magnificent crash like 1983 to shake the industry out. As long as people are unable to distinguish a poor game from an excellent one, a Nintendo game from a Titus one, then the dry, rehashed, overmarketed games will continue to dominate the industry. I guess if people are happy with their games, then it doesn't truly matter...after all, the will of the people, right? Unfortunately for Ben Franklin, the people are in this case wrong.
But, as long as we can support Nintendo....
*sigh*
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 01, 2003, 07:25:21 AM
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The industry is, as it stands, being destroyed by the great idiocy of the general public.
Heres a thought. Maybe the vast majority of people who play games, play them for simple enjoyment. Maybe they dont see every little flaw and spend hours discussing gameplay, and controller configuration. Maybe they like having 500 games to choose from, and really dont care what game won GOTY, or know who Shiggy is, or can tell you what FLUDD stands for.
Maybe it is the self proclaimed HARDCORE gamer who is the real idiot here, infact I cant help but see this as the case.
Otherwise how can someone say that an industry that has doubled in 5 years and will double again in the next 5 is being DESTROYED?
The facts are clear, the industry is booming and the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people seem to enjoy its fruits.
Post by: Mingesium on March 01, 2003, 07:56:39 AM
Two great RPG makes, Square and Enix, have to come together to compete.
Microsoft reporting loss on XBox.
Nintendo and Microsoft lowering forcasts.
Sega making great games, but are in endless rumors of being bought.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 01, 2003, 08:21:47 AM
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Two great RPG makes, Square and Enix, have to come together to compete.
In any industry that is growing rabidly small companies usually suffer as HUGE companies prosper. This has nothing to do with the feasability or prosperity of the industry as a whole.
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Microsoft reporting loss on XBox.
Microsoft planned on losing money on the X-box. It is their first stab at the console market resulting in huge R/D costs along with an aggressive campaign to try and aquire market saturation much quicker than it would normally. The fact that MS has entered the console game is an indication in itself of just how good the indusrty is.
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Nintendo and Microsoft lowering forcasts.
The US economy as whole has been in the crapper for 2 years now, terrorists flying planes into buildings didnt help either, nor does an impending was with Iraq. The vido game indusrty is growing very rapidly, much higher than almost any other retail sector. The lower forecast are a combination of the economy, more competition in the market, and overly optimistic targets that are used to make investors happy. This again is not a true reflection of the industry from a broad point of view.
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Sega making great games, but are in endless rumors of being bought.
This if anything tells me that the indusrty IS booming. Companies like SEGA are key pieces to larger companies plans of domination in a growing industry. When times are tough large companies tend to sell of various factions of their enterprice in cost cutting measures. The fact that SEGA is wanted by many again point a growing industry. Whoever does buy SEGA, (if anyone) will be come a much stronger force in the market.
Look at numbers of the indusrty as a whole, not the numbers of individual companies.
Post by: The Omen on March 01, 2003, 10:16:24 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 01, 2003, 10:46:29 AM
And thecubedcanuck, did you read the article? And I quote: "Is an industry that let the Dreamcast die healthy?" I mean, really. Do you want to see Nintendo forced out by Sony and Microsoft and the squalors of capitalism? Do you want the rising costs of games development to override Nintendo's profit margin, only dependable on a core base of fans? Do you want zero third-party support for the GameCube?
Maybe you do, but it's not the world I want to live in, and it's not right.
Post by: RockmanX on March 01, 2003, 11:29:51 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 01, 2003, 11:37:19 AM
Nintendo fans have reason to hope, since it seems that game developers are increasingly turning to the one true game company left. Just look at the games announced every day (I never thought I'd see Metal Gear again, and a likely exclusive one at that!), and it keeps on getting better and better.
And Nintendo fans also have reason to despair, since there is no suggestion they will be any more successful next generation without compromising that which makes them Nintendo.
As I see it, it could go either way:
Nintendo gets a fresh start next generation, with the best third-party support from the Japanese developers that really matter,
or
Nintendo gets screwed again, and does so until the end of time, for being Nintendo. Third party support (including all this great Sega, Namco, Konami, Capcom, Squaresoft stuff we're seeing) goes the way of the dodo. Nintendo survives by its loyal, hardcore fans.
It's an age old battle: art versus commerce. The developers may want to make their best games, but the money is clearly on other systems.
Art versus Commerce.
Commerce always wins.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 01, 2003, 12:56:43 PM
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Do you want to see Nintendo forced out by Sony and Microsoft and the squalors of capitalism? Do you want the rising costs of games development to override Nintendo's profit margin, only dependable on a core base of fans? Do you want zero third-party support for the GameCube?
Honestly, I could care less. They are only games.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 01, 2003, 12:59:54 PM
Post by: theaveng on March 01, 2003, 01:54:45 PM
QuoteI recall a similar thing happening in 1983... companies like Atari used lots of hype to sell games, but when people got home they discovered the game was crap.
Originally posted by: Dolphin64X
And really. Why should the games that win game of the year, the games like Metroid Prime, sell less then Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball? What message does this tell developers? Only make overhyped and flash-driven games. Is this, truly, healthy?
In 1984 the people responded to the crap by stopping buying games, and causing a videogame crash.
If in 2003 crap games like DOA: XXX Volleyball are using hype to sell themselves, eventually the customer will get discouraged with the lack of fun, lose interest in games, and then maybe in 2004,we'll have another videogame crash. And then hopefully the crap will disappear... well we can only hope.
Post by: Gamer Donkey on March 01, 2003, 01:57:53 PM
Post by: willys85 on March 01, 2003, 02:43:42 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on March 01, 2003, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: Kai on March 01, 2003, 03:23:46 PM
Which is why publishing houses finance their award winning books via the sales of their best-selling Shiite, why governments fund independent movie houses that make movies that are critically acclaimed but make little money.
Post by: egman on March 01, 2003, 05:06:10 PM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 02, 2003, 04:47:47 AM
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Books, paintings, Movies, any kind of artistic endeavour or medium is dominated by top-selling mediocre and down right horrible titles.
Going a little overboard now arent we?
Just because you dont like something doesnt make it horrible. To say that all mainstrean media is horrible clearly shows just how biased and opinionated you really are.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 02, 2003, 04:53:26 AM
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And you would rather play inferior games? Then why do you come here? (Sorry, I know it sounds harsh).
Inferior when it it comes to games is strictly a matter of taste and opinion.
Many people truly enjoy games you will call great and vice versa.
My wife thinks Metroid is the worst game she has ever played, however, she cant stop playing sunshine.
I think sunshine is brutal, in all honestly I would consider it one of my most hated games.
Its all opinion.
I could care less who makes the game, if I like it I play it, regardless of reviews, hype or any other influence.
As for the Dreamcast dying healthy. I dont get it? How the hell was it healthy?
You owned one and thought it was great? Is that it?
IT SOLD LIKE CRAP, MAKING IT VERY UNHEALTHY FROM A BUSINESS STANDPOINT.
get it now?
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 02, 2003, 05:55:46 AM
And yes, I do use the term inferior, because I do think it applies. Now, your wife may love Super Mario Sunshine, but would she love a lower-quality platform game, say, Zapper, as much? You may not like platform games, but to someone who does, the difference can easily be told.
And would you rather play Metroid Prime or Turok: Evolution? One could argue that since both are first-person and both have some focus on exploration, they are similar, and a person could be happy with either one.
There is a difference between a quality game and a shoddy one. The industry is young enough that we can still be subjective about the value of a game, to a certain degree. A person can easily say that BMX XXX is a worse game than Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, and not get any flak for it.
The question comes down to, thecubedcanuck, would you rather have no Metroids and all Turok: Evolutions? No THPSs and all BMX XXX? There is a clear difference in quality between the games, regardless of personal opinion.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 02, 2003, 06:31:31 AM
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No, the Dreamcast was healthy from a games standpoint. They had all the major genres covered, perhaps the best library ever achieved in the first year of a console. What could kill a system with such great games? Hype. Hype, for the Playstation 2, stopped the Dreamcast dead in its tracks, to make room for a system whose games were, at the time, quite inferior to the titles the Dreamcast was recieving.
The PS2 is a great system, far supior to the dreamcast in my opinion. I didnt own a dreamcast because I cant stand most SEGA games. Also with Sony's success of the PS1 it was clear that the PS2 was going to have outstanding 3rd party support, and it also had backward capabilities enticing the PS1 owners, making it the clear choice for people looking for a system.
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And yes, I do use the term inferior, because I do think it applies. Now, your wife may love Super Mario Sunshine, but would she love a lower-quality platform game, say, Zapper, as much? You may not like platform games, but to someone who does, the difference can easily be told.
Actually since you bring it up, she does like Zapper, and actuallt her favorite platformer is Pac Mac worlds. I to love platformers, and would have taken a dolled up Mario 64 over sunshine. Sly cooter is a much superior game.
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And would you rather play Metroid Prime or Turok: Evolution? One could argue that since both are first-person and both have some focus on exploration, they are similar, and a person could be happy with either one.
I love Metroid, but dont think it is a good as many think. I also didnt mind Turok at all, I do think Timesplitters and splinter cell are better than both.
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There is a difference between a quality game and a shoddy one. The industry is young enough that we can still be subjective about the value of a game, to a certain degree. A person can easily say that BMX XXX is a worse game than Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, and not get any flak for it.
What about the people that prefer BMX XXX, are they wrong for having made that choice? I dont think so, it is all opinion. I personally cant stand either game.
Quote
The question comes down to, thecubedcanuck, would you rather have no Metroids and all Turok: Evolutions? No THPSs and all BMX XXX? There is a clear difference in quality between the games, regardless of personal opinion.
I dont see the differance in quality at all, its all about fun. If you like it, it is quality, simple as that.
You like way to many Nintendo lovers want to much, you seem to have forgotten how to have fun playing games, I dont care what anyone thinks about a game, I am not fussy on graphics or frame rate either, I play what I enjoy. What a novel approach isnt it.
Post by: Frostie on March 02, 2003, 07:17:23 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 02, 2003, 01:49:30 PM
And for almost 2 years after the Playstation launched, its library was definitely thinner than the Dreamcast's. What was their first big game? Gran Turismo 3 A-Spec? And when did it come out? Summer?? Meanwhile the Dreamcast was getting good games. Still, the Dreamcast is gone, which is only evidence of the poor judgment of consumers. And yes, the Dreamcast had excellent games! It's not too contested. If you don't mind Nintendo leaving the game industry, then fine. Don't care. But I care, and I hate to see publishers pulling support from the GameCube. Big-name developers making GameCube games is good news, though, and it helps for the next generation.
Regardless, there are serious problems in the industry. What's the point of capitalism? Competition forces companies to make better products, at better prices. In the current industry, the better products are being ignored, in favor of more marketable ones, like: BOOBS! Ten years ago, no one would even suggest that Nintendo change their style. Now people are (I'm not one of them), and why? To be like the other, shoddy games? The free market is unhealthy in the videogames industry, plain and simple.
Post by: Nintega on March 02, 2003, 04:31:34 PM
Post by: SilverBack1138 on March 02, 2003, 08:33:10 PM
Post by: theaveng on March 03, 2003, 02:49:57 AM
I hear a LOT of hype about DreamCast froms gamers, but when I borrowed a system from a friend of mine, I was totally unimpressed. The graphics on that system were not as impressive as what I see on a PS2. They felt like N64-graphics but smoothed with more polygons. That's it... nothing outstanding or special.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 03, 2003, 06:06:40 AM
I suppose I'll be happy as long as the good Japanese support keeps on coming. At the moment it only seems to be growing. The problem of losing support seems biggest if you look at American publishers, who do publish most of the copycat games, and you see them hastily abandoning ship, like the GameCube was dying or something. It's not, but the dropping of American developers, which are in vogue right now, sure isn't helping to increase the GameCube's market share.
I suppose it ends up on how much clout the developers can wield. If Shinji Mikami wants to make only GameCube games, but they sell much less than Playstation 2 games, then he'll be pressured to instead make it for the Playstation 2. A company's goal is, after all, to make money. But as long as consumers keep feeding the rehash and glitz market, we'll see the support go to the company with the most presence.
If Nintendo can secure the help of big Japanese games for the next system's release, people may be talking much more about it. I mean, who wouldn't want a system launching with Metal Gear Solid 4, Resident Evil 5, Soul Caliber III, etc.? (Viewtiful Joe 2?
) Even if the Nintendo classics aren't enough to attract consumers beyond the core market, the general excitement generated by a system that has those would. We can only hope.
Post by: nolimit19 on March 03, 2003, 08:26:07 AM
Post by: theaveng on March 03, 2003, 12:44:20 PM
QuoteI don't think it was hype that killed Dreamcast. Lack-of-sufficient advancement is what did it.
Originally posted by: Dolphin64X
Well, the system was 2 years older than the Playstation 2. Judging by graphics, however, is one of the faults of the current industry.... Hype shouldn't sell games, games should, and it sure wasn't games that sold the first Playstation 2's.
If I imagine myself in the year 1998 with a PS1 or N64, would the Dreamcast induce me to upgrade? No. Because the graphics are "N64-style but smoothed with more polygons." I would not be able to justify to myself spending $400 plus a whole new game collection for such a small advancement in graphics. I'd stick with what I already have.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 05, 2003, 02:21:54 AM
And the Dreamcast started out selling reasonably well. The public seemed ready to buy it, until news of the Playstation 2 breached.
Quite simply, if games don't sell systems, the industry is in trouble. If the big Japanese game designers do stick with Nintendo, we may see a turnaround next generation, but if Nintendo is consigned to little support, then I fear the industry will have degraded to a level where image is everything, and quality and innovation are things of the past.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 05, 2003, 02:30:48 AM
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I fear the industry will have degraded to a level where image is everything, and quality and innovation are things of the past.
You guys give Nintendo way to much credit. Yes, most of their games are good, but surely not all of them are. If Nintendo died it definately wouldnt spell the end of the video game market.
Your statement is so biased it isnt even funny, you seem to think that nintendo is the only company making anything innovative and with quality. Get your head out of the big N's ass for a while and try new things.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 05, 2003, 02:50:52 AM
Regardless, I feel I speak for most of the people here when I say that Nintendo makes, bar none, the best games, and if they left the games industry would hold little left.
Really, there's something to be said about a company that invented modern gaming. Nintendo is one of the few companies left willing to try innovation instead of brash commercialism-I mean look at Wind Waker, it's quite a risky look, but they thought it would play better, so they did it anyways.
Post by: theaveng on March 05, 2003, 06:03:07 AM
Honestly, as cubedcanuck said, Nintendo is not taking any more risks than any other gaming company.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 05, 2003, 08:33:07 AM
I'm not sure about Nintendo playing risks. They've always been very conservative in business policies, not willing to spend more money then necessary. But I think Nintendo understands, and always has, that it has to let its game designers create what they want in order to get the best quality games. This strategy put Nintendo where it is now, with a reputation of only the best. Unfortunately it seems that consumers today aren't as interested in buying the best quality games-the sales Nintendo gets from it fans are not enough to sell comparably to that of Sony or, in the US, Microsoft.
But at least it can keep going like this for a long time to come. It does make a lot of money, and profits are rising (though that might be due to inflation-the graph Rick linked to didn't say), but I don't know how long it can go if it keeps losing public attention. 20 years at least, at worst, though.
I hope that the next generation is a fresh start, and Nintendo can lure back the public with enough Japanese support. As long as Nintendo doesn't die, I'll be happy. I'll be happier if it doesn' become a niche company.
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 05, 2003, 10:13:06 AM
I saw all 7stages (are there more???) and dont want to play anymore, whereas I beat Mario 64 about 8times and some stars I collected like 25times. (Like the ones in the first stage).
I am also incredibly hyped for Mario 128, I hope that will bring my real Mario desire to an end for, well, until I beat it.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 05, 2003, 10:30:59 AM
You are a fanboy, plain and simple. Nintendo is a shell of the great company they once were.
Post by: Link on March 05, 2003, 10:34:53 AM
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 05, 2003, 10:47:38 AM
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Give me a break. I shudder to think what the world of video games looks like through your eyes
too funny
I have all 3 systems and I honestly dont see Nintendo as having the better quality of games or system.
All 3 have great games, and all 3 systems have benifits and flaws.
Why is that so hard to comprehend?
Nintendo isnt the company it once was, Mario sunshine should be proof of that. I am hoping Zelda is the masterpiece I think it will be, however if it isnt I wont kid myself by pretending it is.
You keep saying my logic is flawed. How is it flawed? By looking at things objectively? By not looking at the name on the box and deciding right there and then.
I play games, I honestly could care less who makes them.
As for "the world of video games I live in" its called the real world, games are a hobbie, not real life.
Post by: Link on March 05, 2003, 10:55:30 AM
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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
Nintendo isnt the company it once was, Mario sunshine should be proof of that. I am hoping Zelda is the masterpiece I think it will be, however if it isnt I wont kid myself by pretending it is.
That's an opinion. Nothing more. Nintendo isn't crumbling just because you dislike Mario or Zelda.
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As for "the world of video games I live in" its called the real world, games are a hobbie, not real life.
I didn't say "you live in". I said, "I shudder to think what the world of video games looks like through your eyes." And yes so what if it is a hobby to you and me? Does that mean I'm not allowed to get fired up about it? If we didn't have these kind of hobbies, we'd all go insane.
People get emotional about video games on the internet as well as so called real life. Deal with it.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 05, 2003, 11:04:42 AM
Do you play any other systems on a regular basis?
Can you really be objective if you dont?
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on March 05, 2003, 11:15:41 AM
so to stray back towards the path that we should be progressing towards....
i find now that almost everyone who plays videogames or talks about videogames at my school owns a Ps2 and GTA 3 or GTA: Vice City. Having not gotten to play Vice City, i can't judge it, but i hope that it is more fun than GTA 3, which i find to be a little overrated, but still good. sorry, i pulled the role of the board hypocrite there cuz i strayed off topic, but i dont feel like going back to edit that.
anyways, lots of people have PS2 and a GTA game for it, and another group is starting to get big into DDR ... but i find that now that people have a ps2 they are branching out and buying a second system. For some, its the Xbox. The draw of Halo and Xbox live really pulls some people to buy the system. I have noticed some more PS2 owners that recently bought Cubes, so it seems like the Cube around here is just bought because the people can afford the extra investment... but still, i would estimate that only 1/6 of the guys playing videogames at my school really know all of the gaming news. Most just look at a game's box, and if it has a guy holding a gun on the cover they immediately show interest in it. upon turning to look at the back cover, they see gunfights and other 'cool' things and then they buy the game. (i do know people that will just buy a game with no prior knowledge about it... they have a little too much money to waste, in my opinion)
I think nintendo's strategy is paying off a little. people already have a ps2 and GTA Vice City and are a little unsure about what game to get next, and the free game packed with a 150 dollar cube definitely turns some heads, especially when Mario Party 4 is one of those free games.
in my opinion, Nintendo needs to get an exclusive First Person Shooter with a very good multiplayer that can definitely inspire sales, but thats just not their style, so they need to get some games with a GTA or Halo-like draw that really gets gamers to turn their heads and break out the pocket books. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker looks fantastic in my honest opinion. I was completely horrified and utterly shocked when i saw the first trailer for it, but it grew on me when i realized how much better the game could be (though an Ocarina of Time style may have drawn more of the public's attention, i just dont know). Hopefully, Nintendo will deliver with this title, and i really hope that they find a way to advertise it well (the preorder worked well), and finally, i hope that the public can take 10 minutes of their time to play this game. (it seems like the oddity of some titles kept them from getting more public attention than they deserved, Like Pikmin or Eternal Darkness, though they both could have benefitted with a little more length.)
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 05, 2003, 11:18:33 AM
If Nintendo buils an advance over Xbox userbase everywhere in the world and establishes itself in Japan, id say, it was sucesssful.
Post by: Gamer Donkey on March 05, 2003, 11:18:43 AM
Post by: Link on March 05, 2003, 11:22:47 AM
Not really. I've played every single "big" release, and some small ones on PS2. I've played enough PS2 games where have beaten them. But I don't own one. I've played to so called big games on Xbox. Halo and various other games that aren't Halo. And own a PS1 with about 50 games.
Listen, I've been playing video games since 1980. I've played every single console more times than I can fathom. Don't try calling me a goddamn fanboy because I don't think Nintendo is crap and that they make the best video games.
Why do I have to be objective anyway? Because I don't own a PS2 or an Xbox I can't have an opinion?Just because you buy everything under the sun, your OPINIONS mean more than mine?
Post by: Gamer Donkey on March 05, 2003, 11:25:55 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 05, 2003, 12:35:59 PM
Personally, I see it going great for the acquisition of third party support. The American support be not be there, and may never be for the GameCube, but it's adeqaute. The Japanese support, however, looks great. GameCube owners are getting unique and interesting titles all the time. Sure many more go to the PlayStation 2, but it's understandable giving the installed base.
Doing wrong? I'd only say they were doing wrong by not created more development teams. Put the money back into the games! It's an investment for the future, really. And after seeing what Retro Studios is capable of, I'd like to see more similar ventures.
Next generation things could go either way. If Nintendo launches on time, and with true support from the "old-school" of gaming; Namco, Capcom, Konami, Square-Enix, (as I currently see Japanese developers joining with Nintendo), then things could be different. On the other hand, even that may not be enough to make it past the glitz and hype of the next system's from Sony and Microsoft. It can't be called at the moment. If, however, Nintendo comes late once again to the table, then they may not even see the sales of the GameCube. Of course they won't give up and nor will their fans, but we may see only token support from the major third parties. If Nintendo can't put up a timely showing with their new system, then they may lose all momentum and be forever a small player, one of the only supporters of its hardware.
I don't even want to think about what would happen if Sony or Microsoft tried to enter the handheld market.
And Super Mario Sunshine was not considered bad, it was merely considered disapointing by some. That doesn't include me-it was perfectly difficult, I thought.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 05, 2003, 04:03:50 PM
All I can say is ouch.
Post by: KrazyJ1098 on March 05, 2003, 06:12:22 PM
Post by: Duriez on March 05, 2003, 06:12:34 PM
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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
All I can say is ouch.
Why? Did it offend you or something? I always take articles like that with a grain of salt. You didn't take it to seriously did you?
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 04:15:17 AM
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"Our survey results clearly show that the youth gamers driving this market are most interested in higher quality games and greater variety," said David Edwards, CEO and founder of Zanthus
Give me a break. Interested in higher quality games, yet dismissing Nintendo as "kiddy?" Interested in greater variety, yet only fueling demand for so-called mature games? If people continue to buy these games, publishers will continue to focus on them. We're already seeing a much greater ratio of M and T rated games to E rated games then we were two years ago. I'm not saying this is in itself a bad thing, but it is when companies make a game bloody to get a higher rating and earn more sales.
As for Nintendo marketing their mature games, I feel the same as Rick on this one. I greatly respect Nintendo for refusing to market their products to unsuitable audiences, but it frustrates me that their competitors have no qualms of doing this. Nintendo just won't compete with their illegal tactics, and unfortunately it's hurting sales.
The attitude by the teens is just the kind of attitude that hurts the industry. It fosters not good games but cool games, style over substance, and denies the chance for games which would easily appeal to them (i.e. Metroid Prime) from achieving the popularity they deserve. Unfortunately I don't know what can change this, other than Nintendo marketing mature products to kids, which I really don't want to see happen.
I hope that in other countries image does not matter as much. Perhaps then the next home console will get a chance to succeed.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 06, 2003, 04:47:32 AM
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Nintendo just won't compete with their illegal tactics, and unfortunately it's hurting sales.
What is so illegal about it? Infact that statement is borderline libelous. No kidding its hurting sales, the public says it wants one thing and Nintendo insists on delivering another. Now why would that produce anything other than poor sales?
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The attitude by the teens is just the kind of attitude that hurts the industry.
I suppose that is why the gaming industry is growing quicker than any other sector of entertainment. Why it has passed hollywood in $$$ made. Yep, the industry sure is hurting. Or could it be that it simply isnt going in the direction you want it to, meaning that YOU are in the MINORITY?
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and denies the chance for games which would easily appeal to them (i.e. Metroid Prime) from achieving the popularity they deserve.
Please tell me why you think it DESERVES to be popular? Is it because YOU like it? It is a game, it doesnt deserve anything.
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I hope that in other countries image does not matter as much. Perhaps then the next home console will get a chance to succeed.
Image matters everywhere and America is the main reason for this. As for the next console, give the MAJORITY of people what they want and it will sell, or continue to market your product to the MINORITY and wonder what went wrong. It is simple economics.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 05:16:06 AM
Congress has gotten on game companies' backs for advertising mature titles to children. It's one of the reasons the ESRB was formed.
I've said many, many times that the industry will be hurting from a creative standpoint, as a dearth of unoriginal and over-hyped titles flood the market. Remember, it's what killed the industry in 1983.
Read the reviews for Metroid Prime. I'll give you some help: GameRankings.com: Metroid Prime. Ask people on the forums what they think of it. It is almost a consensus: Metroid Prime is not only good, but freakin' awesome.
As for your last point, that one is worthy of some consideration. Yes, it is true that Sony and Microsoft are aiming for the largest consumer group in America, and doing well because of it. Yet the groups Nintendo is aiming for, the groups that would accept its games, aren't becuase of image. What does that have to do with competition? If capitalism forces companies to make glitzy, shallow titles, much as how most of Hollywood operates, then it is not doing its job. Theoretically, capitalism forces companies to make better products to compete. In a creative format, however, where 'better' is subjective, it often turns to companies making "cooler" products. I don't think that capitalism is infallible, certainly not in a market involving creativity.
Logically, there is no alternative (you can't force people to buy good games). However, it is incredibly frustrating to see it fail so miserably. Nintendo makes the best products, right? (I don't even want to hear it this time, cubedcanuck). Then why don't they sell better? Image should not control the market, but it is. But unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it-for it seems that good games will not change the mind of the general populace, not while it remains ignorant to truly good games.
Note: Yes, Grand Theft Auto 3 was good. I'm not arguing that. But as Denis Dyack said, it wasn't that good. Not revolutionary-sell-8-million-copies-and-be-a-cultural-phenomenon-good. Okay?
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 06, 2003, 05:44:57 AM
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Congress has gotten on game companies' backs for advertising mature titles to children. It's one of the reasons the ESRB was formed
Yes, but that doesnt make it "ILLEGAL", it is simply a rating system nothing more nothing less.
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I've said many, many times that the industry will be hurting from a creative standpoint, as a dearth of unoriginal and over-hyped titles flood the market. Remember, it's what killed the industry in 1983.
I dont think its hurting at all, from any standpoint, even a creative one. There a boatload of great games on all systems that are quite creative. As with any booming industry you will have a flood of "inferior" product as companies try to cash in on the boom. You will also see another crash in the gaming industry in time, regardless of the quality and originality of the products. It is just the nature of the cyclical entertainment industry.
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Read the reviews for Metroid Prime. I'll give you some help: GameRankings.com: Metroid Prime. Ask people on the forums what they think of it. It is almost a consensus: Metroid Prime is not only good, but freakin' awesome.
That still doesnt mean it "DESERVES" to sell well, there are a ton of "GREAT" products on the market that sell like crap. Just because something is good doesnt mean it will have mass appeal. I thought the game was very good, I wouldnt say awesome however. Besides reviews are simply opinions and I am betting that less that 10% of all people who buy games even read or realize for that matter that reviews for games even exist.
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Yet the groups Nintendo is aiming for, the groups that would accept its games, aren't becuase of image. What does that have to do with competition?
I dont buy that for a minute. Nintendo does and is trying to portray an image, an image of family friendly entertainment, right? Isnt this what everyone says? So tell me then why are games like GTA 3 acceptable on the Gameboy? Do Nintendo's ethics and morality stop at the cube? Nintendo cant beat the compitition in the console market, so they try and hit a differant target, hence the childrens market. But with the gameboy anything seems to go because they are the leaders. Isnt this a bit hypocritical?
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If capitalism forces companies to make glitzy, shallow titles, much as how most of Hollywood operates, then it is not doing its job.
It is not capitalisms job to do anything. Capitalism gives the peopel the choice, in both what they make and buy. People are buying glitz because they want to, and companies will make it as long as it sells, not because anyone is being forced to.
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Theoretically, capitalism forces companies to make better products to compete. In a creative format, however, where 'better' is subjective, it often turns to companies making "cooler" products.
They make "cooler" products because that is what the "people" want. This means capitalism is working and well in fact. In the case of video games, cool may very well mean better to many, and there really is nothing wrong with that. If companies stopped making games that sold because they were cool and instead only made games that didnt appeal and didnt sell but were "better" in a few eyes, how would this be better? It would only speed up the demise of the industry because sales would dry up.
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I don't think that capitalism is infallible, certainly not in a market involving creativity.
I suppose this is why we see such a huge number of great creative games coming out of Iraq, China and N. Korea?
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 07:48:34 AM
That said, I am positive that Congress investigated the videogame, music, and movie industries no more than a few years ago for advertising mature products to minors. Perhaps illegal was the wrong term, but I know that they aren't supposed to do it. Can anyone back me up on this one? Anyway, Nintendo takes the high road and doesn't advertise inappropriately, while other companies do. This just plain stinks, as Nintendo is getting hurt by being the good guy.
And yes, there are a great amount of games on all platforms that are creative. I'm happy with current selections. But as every year passes it seems to me that the industry turns more and more to sequels and copies, and less to knew and original ideas. And I sure don't remember crashes in the music and movie businesses, but if it keeps happening to the games industry, well that will be a scary thing. Perhaps, though, it will be good, a cleansing fire to wipe out and start over again. I just hope the situation never becomes that dire.
And why shouldn't Metroid Prime have mass appeal? Great game, cool hero (certainly cooler than Master Chief), and a game with a slick sense of style and beautiful graphics. People aren't buying it becuase it's a GameCube game, which is associated with "kiddy" games. Is that a good reason to not buy it?
And I suppose you are true when you say that "cool" is what people want. It just frustrates me when people want cool over good. I suppose I can't do anything about it, but it still doesn't seem right.
And yeah, that crack was kinda funny (but you have to remember they don't have videogames to buy in the first place).
Really, what I'm bothered about with image is not for certain games, it's for the entire console. Becuase of the image of Nintendo, in the minds of the ignorant this extends towards all games on the system. However a game like Metroid Prime (perhaps not Eternal Darkness, being somewhat ahead of its time) is overlooked by these buyers, when I know it would be a game they would buy. Think about it: it has similar properties to Grand Theft Auto 3: stylish, good, intelligent. Think how much it could sell! But it doesn't, because of image. If image is truly what people want to buy into, then why can't they buy into Metroid Prime?
Luckily the game developers seem to be turning to Nintendo. I am very pleased with all the ties being formed between Mr. Miyamoto and his peers at other companies. If he can win their support, then the tides may just change. I fear it is too late to make a comeback with the GameCube. While not a failure, it will never live up to its true potential-that of an incredible, popular games system (i.e. SNES). Maybe, just maybe, the slate will be clear in the next round, so that Nintendo can fight back for more than a third place finish.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 07:55:38 AM
Nintendo, though you may be fighting against popular opinion that you are a loser company for babies, and no amount of exclusive content will change that, at least you can go on with the satisfaction of a full bank account.
Post by: Luc on March 06, 2003, 08:31:36 AM
Konami: Many of the games you mentioned are multiplatform (i.e. Metal Gear Solid, TMNT). Where's the exclusive love from Konami? The PS2 exclusive library includes: Gradius V (Treasure developed), Silent Hill 3, Castlevania, DDR Max 1 & 2, Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner, etc.
Squaresoft: One game (FF:CC) does not equate "great" support for the GC, dont-cha think? FFXII is PS2 exclusive and the interview with Matsuno and Miyamoto was nothing more than a rumor.
Enix: Why even bother listing Enix since 80% of their resources are being supplied for the PS2. (Star Ocean 3, Drag-on Dragoon, Dragon Quest VIII, etc.)
Capcom: I definetly agree that Capcom is supporting the GCN with great games such as the Capcom 5. However, Capcom is also suppporting other consoles with "new franchises" such as Steel Battalion (Xbox), Chaos Legion (PS2), Auto Modellista (PS2), Glass Rose (PS2), Gregory Horror Show (PS2). Oh and the GCN is not the only console receiving a Mega Man title, the PS2 gets Mega Man X7.
Sega: Overworks, Am2, and Sonic Team loyal to the GCN? I'm sorry Dolphin64X, but Overworks did develop Shinobi (PS2) and are developing 5 exclusive Sakura Taisen (some are remakes, however) titles for the PS2. Am2 developed Virtua Fighter 4 & Evolution (PS2), King of Route 66 (PS2), Aero Elite: Combat Academy (PS2). Sonic Team's own, Yuji Naka, stated in an interview that his team is developing one new title for the PS2. Some have speculated that this title will probably star Astro Boy of Osamu Tezuka's fame. The titles I listed highly make these team "loyal" to the GCN console.
Namco: Namco's GCN line-up pretty much kick A$$ with titles that include (not listing multiplatform titles) Star Fox Armada, Tales of Symphonia, and Baiten Kaitos. The PS2 gets (not listing multiplatform titles) Venus and Braves, Tales of Destiny 2, Xenosaga, and Ace Combat 5.
Post by: thecubedcanuck on March 06, 2003, 09:20:42 AM
It is real nice to see someone who can have a discussion without resorting to name calling and obsenity, very rare now a days.
If everyone followed these principals I can only imagine how interesting these threads would become.
I do understand your point of view for what its worth, I was simply busting your balls for the sake of good conversation.
The one thing I do not fully understand however is everyones obsession with Metroid. I admit the game was quite good, but I just didnt find it to be as good as everyone thinks. I thought the intro was brutal in fact, it looked so damn corny. The in game graphics were good but nothing spectacular, the sound did kick ass though. I just found all the scanning and slow pace to get tiresome. I am very close to finishing Metroid (finally), it took me forever because I had trouble playing it for any lenght of time due to boredom. Where as RE I blew through almost non stop. Please dont bite my head off here, but in all honesty, and i do mean this, I prefer to play Tiger Woods 2003 over it. I can almost here the gasping from here.
On a side note, I picked up a used Eternal Darkness at lunch for $15 canadian, even had the instructions still. Maybe now I can finish it as well.
Cheers.
Post by: The Omen on March 06, 2003, 09:28:40 AM
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 09:29:12 AM
...Anyway, long story short, I took two hours to find absolutely nothing. Yay!
Post by: The Omen on March 06, 2003, 09:36:52 AM
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In an RPG, I usually come back to towns after most every story event, to see if people say anything different.
Thats obsessive behavior. That being said, I do that all the time!
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on March 06, 2003, 09:45:21 AM
I think its great that people arent actually 'ALL NINTENDO' in their perspective. While
I only own GCN and see it as the best console I am very clear of the fact that Xbox and PS2 also have their strength, which makes
them attractive, but due to cost reasons, not attractive enough (yet) to be bought over GCN games.
Once I get a job, ill get all 3 systems.
Post by: digitalshogun on March 06, 2003, 10:39:17 AM
If nintendo wants to do better, they need a nextgen Duck Hunt bundle!
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 06, 2003, 10:54:42 AM
Because they sure got right to work on Mario, Zelda, and Metroid with the GameCube, and that's about as high-profile as it gets. The only problem is that these games take time, and people also beg them to work on things other than sequels.
But, yeah, a Miyamoto rythm game would probably be sweet.
Post by: Dolphin64X on March 07, 2003, 07:45:36 AM
Cubedcanuck, I couldn't have done it without you. Really.
