Post by: Artimus on April 12, 2006, 09:31:20 AM
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/12/new-mario-lacks-newness-says-infendo/
It's based on an Infendo article by a guy who has...looked at only screenshots. Never played it. And yet Joystiq is reporting it as news. NEWS.
Oh PGC, how I love you. Why must everyone else suck so bad?
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 12, 2006, 09:47:31 AM
Well I never.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2006, 09:48:20 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on April 12, 2006, 10:06:07 AM
But as far as I've heard New Super Mario Bros is in fact a new game in that it has new levels and new content. Even if it is very similar to the older games it is still a "new game". So this isn't news.
Post by: vudu on April 12, 2006, 10:10:21 AM
But I agree, this isn't news about a game. It's news about a rant about a game. It would be like if PGC made a news post about how Ian thinks Saddness might suck because it's in black & white.
Post by: Artimus on April 12, 2006, 10:42:09 AM
The funniest part is that the DS CHANNEL of Joystiq didn't even post this. How pathetic.
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 12, 2006, 12:36:41 PM
My biggest complaint, that I will get over when I am playing the game, is the 3D model approach instead of Sprites. If you are creating a new Mario game and wanting to go back to the original source and make a compelling sequel, why not use sprites and capture the unique whimsical artstyle of the game, instead of using 3D graphics to try to get close to said style?
Post by: Artimus on April 12, 2006, 01:13:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
...why not use sprites and capture the unique whimsical artstyle of the game, instead of using 3D graphics to try to get close to said style?
Moves. 3D models interact in ways sprites can't.
Post by: hudsonhawk on April 12, 2006, 01:21:41 PM
Personally I think sprites make 2d sidescrollers look stiff and dated. The animation gets redundant (seeing the same frames of animation over and over again with no variation or shading), and there are often collision issues. I don't mind sprites as much in 3/4 or top down games (such as the 2d Zeldas or RPGs) but in games that are heavily movement-based, they just never look right.
I know there are cases where it can look good (like in the Street Fighter or Guilty Gear games) but games like that seem to be the exception and not the rule (which I'm sure is largely budgetary). I'll take 60 frames per second of 3d animation over a few frames per second of sprite animation any day.
Post by: KnowsNothing on April 12, 2006, 01:24:43 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2006, 01:26:10 PM
For Zelda, a lot of puzzles just work better in 2D, particularly block puzzles...
As for NSMB, you really have to see it in motion...It looks great, and it makes it easier to apply all of Mario's new moves, so it does have a purpose...
Post by: Jensen on April 12, 2006, 03:00:12 PM
Joystiq is usually quite pro-Nintendo, they are just trying to spark some conversation, but it is quite premature...
Post by: Ian Sane on April 12, 2006, 03:10:25 PM
I find that sprites have more personality. Now polygons have improved considerably since the N64 days but I find them stiff. Many of them have very puppet like movements and though lighting and such works well with them they typically lack facial expressions and subtleties. When you have to draw every frame then it's much easier to add those subtleties because you have to draw the whole character so you might as well do it right. With polygons you can "cheat" and just move the character and in the end he looks like a blowup doll. This isn't always the case. Nintendo is quite good at making 3D characters with personality. EA is not.
One thing I also notice with 3D graphics with 2D gameplay is that it looks weird. I like 3D because it offers a lot of freedom for movement. When the game is 2D the movement isn't there but the game is made of polygons so to me it feels weird. I can't go where I want so why is everything 3D? The whole thing just looks very awkward to me. I can't sidestep an enemy and it's silly that this 3D world is a straight line.
Regarding existing series I prefer Zelda in 3D and Metroid in 2D. Top down view 2D games typically transfer to 3D really well since they were always designed for moving in multiple directions.
Post by: Jensen on April 12, 2006, 03:33:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
One thing I also notice with 3D graphics with 2D gameplay is that it looks weird. I like 3D because it offers a lot of freedom for movement. When the game is 2D the movement isn't there but the game is made of polygons so to me it feels weird. I can't go where I want so why is everything 3D? The whole thing just looks very awkward to me. I can't sidestep an enemy and it's silly that this 3D world is a straight line.
The aren't using polygons because they are 3d, they are using polygons because they are vector graphics, you can scale them, rotate them. It is aslo easier to add accessories to a character.
Post by: RiskyChris on April 12, 2006, 06:59:51 PM
I'm pretty excited for it (DS Lite tomorrow to boot).
Post by: Strell on April 12, 2006, 07:15:08 PM
We need more o' dems.
Post by: IceCold on April 12, 2006, 07:19:07 PM
Post by: TrueNerd on April 12, 2006, 08:35:54 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on April 12, 2006, 09:28:39 PM
I mean...c'mon...it's title is so, stupid and stuff...
Post by: wandering on April 12, 2006, 11:54:21 PM
Quote
However, I really feel sprite-based games have aged much better then early polygonal games. Look at Super Mario World. Then look at Tomb Raider 1. Case closed.
*cough*SuperMario64*cough*
Post by: KDR_11k on April 13, 2006, 04:31:00 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 13, 2006, 06:39:23 AM
Look at really good 8 Bit era Nintendo games. Yes, look dated, but the good ones still were able to get their visual vision across although it is a bit limited. But jump to the 16Bit era and all of a sudden it seems what developers want to get across visually with sprites they can with hard work and great programing. Some games are still quite stunning and beautifully rendered in 2D sprites are works of pure art. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, Chrono Trigger, (That 7 up Spot game), Legend of Zelda: Link the Past, Street Fighter 2...the list can go on.
Now, does that the 3D generation will never be able to age as well as the 2D...not at all. I think with this current generation, and definately next generation we are getting 3D games that will be visually stunning even in the future. But you are using much better technology, and those SNES 2D games are still aging well and still looking great.
Sprites just seem to allow the artist and the art to have more personality and expression within the characters and images...and until recently, 3D animation just never compared.
Hell, look at traditional cell animation to modern 3D animation of Pixar. The Cell animation still has more personality, and artistic expression than the greatest 3D animation of our time.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 13, 2006, 06:41:27 AM
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 13, 2006, 06:53:30 AM
I still wonder if the entire game was a more traditional Zelda (no Ocean theme) more land to explore, and another Dungeon or two...if people would have overlooked the style more and been engrossed in the overall presentation. I think they would have.
I mean...could you imagine the greatness of OoT in that Cell shading beauty.
Post by: RiskyChris on April 13, 2006, 09:27:41 AM
Well that, and the rushed content.
Post by: Rancid Planet on April 13, 2006, 11:59:19 PM
You know, to get...another damn statue.
But yeah, New Mario and stuff.
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 14, 2006, 04:44:37 AM
Post by: Rancid Planet on April 14, 2006, 07:36:58 PM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on April 15, 2006, 09:58:01 PM
Post by: wandering on April 15, 2006, 10:11:03 PM
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Look at Super Mario World, then look at Mario 64. Case closed.
I think it's only fair to compare Super Mario World to Luigi's Mansion, and Super Mario 64 to Super Mario Bros. In which case, things are a little more even.
Though, yes, I do agree that sprites show more personality than 3d games. Same with cel animation vs computer animation.
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 17, 2006, 08:19:38 AM
Besides that we aren't talking technically, we are comparing visual appeal.
And yes most 3D games and more advanced 2D games look better than 8bit generation Nintendo because 8bit Nintendo didn't have enough power to advance graphics that great.
But you know what 8Bit Mario 3 looks pretty amazing.
And if you are going to compare Luigi's Mansion with a SNES game then Super Mario World 2 Yoshi's Island blows it away with style and visual appeal. It may be the best visually impressive game of all time in my opinion.
Post by: KirbySStar on April 17, 2006, 08:54:39 PM
QuoteFixed.
Originally posted by: Spak-Spang
And if you are going to compare Luigi's Mansion with a SNES game then Super Mario World 2 Yoshi's Island blows it away with style and visual appeal. It is the most visually impressive game of all time.
Post by: Artimus on April 17, 2006, 11:14:10 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on April 18, 2006, 06:53:05 AM
Post by: IceCold on April 18, 2006, 03:00:58 PM
To each his own, I guess..
Post by: nitsu niflheim on April 18, 2006, 03:11:04 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 19, 2006, 08:39:55 AM
The game had brilliant and large level designs, which were creative, challenging, and full of depth.
The mechanic to get Mario back I thought was imaginative, and added some challenge to the system yes, but mostly it added a depth to the concept of the game. And it was nice that hey you didn't immediately die hitting an enemy, you had a chance to recover.
I think that alone allowed Nintendo to really push the difficulty level up.
Post by: wandering on April 20, 2006, 01:40:20 AM
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Wandering: No that isn't a fair comparison. You could say compare Super Mario World to Luigi's Mansion or Mario Sunshine, but just because it was a first generation 3D game does not mean the technology compares to 8bit Nintendo.
Besides that we aren't talking technically, we are comparing visual appeal.
Massive power differences aside, the 64 could only really output decent 3d and not much else, and the nes could only output decent 2d and not much else. By contrast, the cube could output 3d + graphical flourishes, and the snes could output 2d + graphical flourishes. So I think the following comparison is pretty fair:
Post by: Artimus on April 20, 2006, 03:40:45 AM
Post by: odilon on April 24, 2006, 08:20:54 PM
Post by: IceCold on April 24, 2006, 08:35:49 PM
Post by: Caterkiller on April 24, 2006, 09:05:59 PM
I wouldn't worry about viewing the new video, it doesn't reveal to much, other than what can be done while small.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 24, 2006, 09:48:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: IceCold
Must... resist...
Watch iiiiiiit...You know you want toooooo! =D
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 24, 2006, 09:52:08 PM
Also, Kirby Canvas Curse art > Yoshi's Island art, though the gameplay in Yoshi's Island surpasses KCC.
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on April 25, 2006, 09:44:30 AM
Post by: wandering on April 27, 2006, 12:06:38 AM
Quote
Good comparisons. I'd even dare to say Luigi's Mansion is more artistically sound than SMW, though that's really tough decision.
Thanks. Wouldn't go that far.
Post by: vudu on May 03, 2006, 03:05:37 AM
Don't shoot the messenger.
Post by: Dasmos on May 03, 2006, 03:59:47 AM
I thought as much after seeing no character artowrk for any of the Koopalings.
Post by: Artimus on May 03, 2006, 05:03:46 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on May 03, 2006, 05:25:02 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on May 03, 2006, 11:42:17 AM
Then again, how Bowser Jr. has anything to do with the original Super Mario Bros., I don't know. I like the character, myself, but I sympathize with everyone that's disappointed that he seems to be replacing the Koopalings.
