Post by: Smash_Brother on April 08, 2006, 03:10:06 PM
1. An expansive consistent world is neither expansive nor consistent if the game pauses for 4-5 seconds every 20-30 steps your character takes to load the surrounding area and 10-20 seconds whenever you go through a door of any kind and for 2-3 seconds when you pull out a different weapon. This game LITERALLY sacrifices gameplay in favor of graphics.
2. There's no point to photo realism when everyone and everything in the game is FUGLY. My friends and I tried unsuccessfully for 10 minutes to generate an attractive female character but could not, eventually going with a giant cat-man (furries rejoice!).
3. Within the first 4-5 hours of the game (if you just plow through it), you only actually encounter 5-6 different types of enemies. Giant rats, a generic goblin model, some sorcerer types and that's about it. I have a hard time understanding how a game can boast great graphics and have so little variety in the enemies.
4. Combat is BOOOORING. Block, wait until whatever it is hurls itself against your shield, then mash the attack button until it's dead. Or just run up to it and mash the button. You can heal yourself easily enough and mana regenerates on its own so why bother being careful?
5. NPCs are so stiff and deadpan that it's freaky. Not only do the eyes and mouths look incredibly unnatural, but the characters and their facial expressions look stiffer and more lifeless than the entire cast of Episode 2 combined. They also seem to not have neck joints since they cannot turn or tilt their heads at all.
6. The interface is clumsy. When it's possible to steal something by accident, you can tell that QA wasn't being all that it could be.
7. The story is bland and generic. Patrick Stewart voices an NPC who dies in the first hour of the game and I think that was their only selling point.
8. It's possible to pick up crap which has no value and no purpose. Some might enjoy this aspect as it allegedly adds to the immersion factor, but rather than littering the world with worthless crap, immersion could have been upped substantially by adding more enemy variety and NPCs which aren't dead-ringers for mannequins.
It's a pretty game, but it suffers from so many unforgivable ailments that I'm insanely glad I ordered my friends to rent it so we could convince another friend not to buy it for the PC.
Post by: capamerica on April 08, 2006, 03:23:22 PM
I was amazed at how bad this game was, especially after how everyone was hyping it up.
I don't know how long I spent trying to create a non-ugly character before I just gave up and went with a non-human.
I've seen manikins that were more animated then the characters in Oblivion.
And God where those load times awful, you would think that a game that was designed from the ground up for the Xbox360 wouldn't have such awful load times. I would hate to have seen the load times if I didn't have a HDD for my 360.
Penny-Arcade wasn't joking when they said this game will put you to sleep. Cause I actually did. No joking, I was playing it with my friends cause we rented it and about 4 or 5 hours into it a fell asleep cause it was so boring.
Post by: blackfootsteps on April 08, 2006, 03:35:59 PM
I love this game, my guy is a glowing white Breton who definately needs some sun. I do agree that characters' faces look weird, I think its the overuse of lighting effects.
As far as the technical issues go, yeah they're annoying but if you clear the cache, load times are dramatically reduced. (hold A until Bethesda logo appears).
I find that some of the missions are very creative eg: eg going into a living painting, someone's dreams, being the target of a hunt on a deserted island.
The customisation of skills and character is impressive, there have been numerous times where I thought, 'I wish I was an argonian so I could breathe underwater to accomplish this or that,' but instead I just worked on my alteration.
I also like the peaceful (some might say dull) nature of the game, horses for courses I guess. I will agree that this game is not the perfect creation that a lot of reviews have made it out to be, however if Morrowind was your thing, then so is this.
BTW did any of you guys get to Oblivion?
Post by: zakkiel on April 08, 2006, 03:41:46 PM
2. Bethesda is actually kind of known for having ugly characters. Someone will make a good mod to fix this eventually. That said, if you think there's no point to photo-realism if you can't make an attractive female character, you need to grow up.
3. You're a damn slow player, or exaggerating attrociously. Obviously in a 120 hour+ game the first couple of hours won't expose you to much variety in enemies. Once you get out of the sewers, though, there's a much better mix. Heck, there's bandits right across from where you exit.
4. "FPS are BOOORING. Aim, shoot, reload, and repeat." If you want stratery in combat, get yourself one of the thousands of nearly identical Japansese RPGs. Myself, I'm bored to tears by that, but whatever. For the rest, turn up the goddamn challenge rating, that's why it's there. If I tried to just run up and mash things, I would die every time.
5. Yes. The animations could be better. On the other hand, the expressions are pretty much perfect. The only reason you have a problem with them is that they're realistic enough to draw attention to their deficiencies.
6. Ironic that your example of clunkiness is actually an example of the interface not being clunky enough for you. Seriously, the only way to keep you from stealing by accident would be annoying dialogue messages asking if you're sure.
7. Absolutely. The story is crap. Video game storylines are.
8. "Don't give me options! I hate that!" Seriously, it's not like they sat down and said, "Well, we could have more enemies and better NPC animations, but heck: we have to stick spools of yarn all over the place." Hint: level designers do not design characters, and spending marginally more time on interiors does not diminish time spent on models.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 08, 2006, 04:31:44 PM
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Originally posted by: zakkiel 1.Mine never pauses for outdoor loading, door load screen are never longer than five seconds, and there's no "pause" when you draw a weapon, and I can't imagine why there would be. But this is great confirmation that the PC version is the better buy, unless of course you're making up those times. Given the response of other gamers to the 360 version, I tend to think you are. Oh, and obviosuly it's nto a "door of any kind," just doors connecting levels.
Thank you for accusing me of lying.
My friend had just defragged his 360 before we played it and it did this. The game paused between switching weapons, loading small areas and once every 20-30 steps.
Maybe his 360 is just proper f*cked, but I report what I experienced and THIS is what I experienced. There was more than one outcry of frustration at the load times as we passed the controller around.
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2. Bethesda is actually kind of known for having ugly characters. Someone will make a good mod to fix this eventually. That said, if you think there's no point to photo-realism if you can't make an attractive female character, you need to grow up.
No, I mean why have photo realism when everything in the game is vaguely unsettling to look at? From the cold, lifeless, wandering eyes of the NPCs to the pasty expression frozen on your own character's face, this game could make Charles Manson uncomfortable with how immensely sterile it is and how it fails at every turn to replicate the appearance of living things.
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3. You're a damn slow player, or exaggerating attrociously. Obviously in a 120 hour+ game the first couple of hours won't expose you to much variety in enemies. Once you get out of the sewers, though, there's a much better mix. Heck, there's bandits right across from where you exit.
I'm quite sure that the imps beyond the gate of oblivion were the same models of the goblins in the sewers. It surprised me that I would only go such a short time into the game and already the models would be rehashed.
I could NOT play this for 120 hours...
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4. "FPS are BOOORING. Aim, shoot, reload, and repeat." If you want stratery in combat, get yourself one of the thousands of nearly identical Japansese RPGs. Myself, I'm bored to tears by that, but whatever. For the rest, turn up the goddamn challenge rating, that's why it's there. If I tried to just run up and mash things, I would die every time.
This would make the combat less boring...how? Unless the enemies suddenly learn to grab my shield and tear it from my hand, or lead a strafing target, then I suspect turning up the difficulty will make the enemies hit harder and live longer but still be boring to fight.
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5. Yes. The animations could be better. On the other hand, the expressions are pretty much perfect. The only reason you have a problem with them is that they're realistic enough to draw attention to their deficiencies.
Umm, no, the expressions are bland, lifeless and awkward. The NPC you're talking to has eyes which will wander randomly instead of staring at you, and the fact that expressing emotion involves more than just the lips and flesh surrounding the eyes seems to have completely escaped these developers. The animations are devoid of life and personality, making every character more like a mannequin than the last.
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6. Ironic that your example of clunkiness is actually an example of the interface not being clunky enough for you. Seriously, the only way to keep you from stealing by accident would be annoying dialogue messages asking if you're sure.
They're called MODIFIERS and they work WONDERS. Even Sega in Phantasy Star Online used them: you hold down a shoulder button and the buttons become a different set of commands, ensuring that, in order to steal something, you need to be holding one command in order for it to happen.
You could have had to be sneaking in order to steal something, which is a modifier anyway. Since stealing is an act which can potentially get your character into trouble, mapping it to a single A button press is completely unintuitive, especially when you might be looking at someone and just barely catch the corner of a stealable object and take it right in front of that NPC.
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8. "Don't give me options! I hate that!" Seriously, it's not like they sat down and said, "Well, we could have more enemies and better NPC animations, but heck: we have to stick spools of yarn all over the place." Hint: level designers do not design characters, and spending marginally more time on interiors does not diminish time spent on models.
Apparently, you fall under the "some who might enjoy this aspect" heading.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 08, 2006, 05:48:18 PM
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No, I mean why have photo-realism when everything in the game is vaguely unsettling to look at? From the cold, lifeless, wandering eyes of the NPCs to the pasty expression frozen on your own character's face, this game could make Charles Manson uncomfortable with how immensely sterile it is and how it fails at every turn to replicate the appearance of living things.
So, you wanted the Devs to make EVERY single one of the almost 1,000 NPCs have their own hand-programmed expressions?
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I'm quite sure that the imps beyond the gate of oblivion were the same models of the goblins in the sewers. It surprised me that I would only go such a short time into the game and already the models would be rehashed.
What? As far as I know, only Wolves and Timber Wolves share the same models. You fought Goblin Warriors, Berserkers and a Shaman in the sewers, and I assume those 'imps beyond the gate of oblivion" were Scamps, which look nothing like Goblins. And Imps don't look like either, they're little flying demon-critters with bat-wings.
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And 120 hours?!? Who the HELL could tolerate 120 hours of this crap?
120 on a stock Oblivion game, no. but probably at least 60, if you're in the right mindset.
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This would make the combat less boring...how? Unless the enemies suddenly learn to grab my shield and tear it from my hand, or lead a strafing target, then I suspect turning up the difficulty will make the enemies hit harder and live longer but still be boring to fight.
Oblivion isn't a fighter, it's an RPG. And have you even TRIED power attack or sneak attacks?
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Are you flat f*ck insane?!? No, the expressions are bland, lifeless and awkward. The NPC you're talking to has eyes which will wander randomly instead of staring at you, and the fact that expressing emotion involves more than just the lips and flesh surrounding the eyes seems to have completely escaped these developers. The animations are devoid of life and personality, making every character more like a mannequin than the last.
I walk into the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary as an assassin, and sit down at a table to chat with my brother-in-arms Gogron gro-Bolmog (an Orc, who is also sitting down and downing a tankard of mead). He's a good guy, with some of the greatest dialog I've ever seen ("I got a mission from LaChance once. Had to go all the way to Summerset Isle. Killed me about thirty elves there. Ah, good times..."), yet he's not even an important NPC. After a few quests, I go to the thieves’ guild and do a mission, and run into Amusei, an Agronian thief who always messes everything up.
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They're called MODIFIERS and they work WONDERS. Even Sega in Phantasy Star Online used them: you hold down a shoulder button and the buttons become a different set of commands, ensuring that, in order to steal something, you need to be holding one command in order for it to happen. You could have had to be sneaking in order to steal something, which is a modifier anyway so why they didn't use it is beyond me.
Or, just be careful you're looking at the NPC instead of that muffin. Anyway, all you'd probably need to do is pay a 2-Gold fine.
And for those of you complaining about it being boring, haven't you ever read a book? It's for the story, there’s a HISTORY to Tamriel, you know. The TES series isn't about action, it's about the big picture. It's about growing your character, and perhaps even a tiny bit of roleplaying thrown in.
Post by: Caliban on April 08, 2006, 06:06:45 PM
Edit: I forgot to say something. I kind of like the combat system in 1st person and it isn't just "guard with shield and then strike-strike-strike", from my experience I have seen some good AI and bad AI.
Post by: Shecky on April 08, 2006, 06:43:18 PM
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Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
My friend had just defragged his 360 before we played it
lol... is that a built in utility for the 360?
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 08, 2006, 07:42:02 PM
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Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot So, you wanted the Devs to make EVERY single one of the almost 1,000 NPCs have their own hand-programmed expressions?
I wanted NPCs who moved their necks, shoulders and parts of their face beyond eyes and mouth, or NPCs which didn't give off a vibe of creepiness.
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What? As far as I know, only Wolves and Timber Wolves share the same models. You fought Goblin Warriors, Berserkers and a Shaman in the sewers, and I assume those 'imps beyond the gate of oblivion" were Scamps, which look nothing like Goblins. And Imps don't look like either, they're little flying demon-critters with bat-wings.
You positive those weren't mildly restructured models? They looked pretty damn similar not to be...
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Oblivion isn't a fighter, it's an RPG. And have you even TRIED power attack or sneak attacks?
Being an RPG is no excuse for having crap for a combat system. Sneak and "power" are pretty goddamn staple attacks. What about disarms? Weapon parries? Limb targeting (targeting in general would have helped, as often you just swing in the general direction of the enemy)? Weak points? Armor removal? Crippling blows? Head attacks to disorient? I didn't play that far in, but were any of these in the game?
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I walk into the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary as an assassin, and sit down at a table to chat with my brother-in-arms Gogron gro-Bolmog (an Orc, who is also sitting down and downing a tankard of mead). He's a good guy, with some of the greatest dialog I've ever seen ("I got a mission from LaChance once. Had to go all the way to Summerset Isle. Killed me about thirty elves there. Ah, good times..."), yet he's not even an important NPC. After a few quests, I go to the thieves’ guild and do a mission, and run into Amusei, an Agronian thief who always messes everything up.
I never said the voice acting sucked (though it sounds like the same 3-6 voice actors just trying to sound like different people), the facial expressions suck. They don't emote like sentient beings at all. If they had added head shakes, nods, head tilting, shoulder shrugging, SOMETHING, I'd be less harsh on it, but everyone acts like they're wearing an invisible neck brace.
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And for those of you complaining about it being boring, haven't you ever read a book? It's for the story, there’s a HISTORY to Tamriel, you know. The TES series isn't about action, it's about the big picture. It's about growing your character, and perhaps even a tiny bit of roleplaying thrown in.
So you'll need to have played the other three games for this one to hold even a sliver of interest? Sorry, but Penny Arcade put it best. While watching friends play, I was drifting into a slumber myself.
MAYBE I can see the game being engaging if you have plenty of time to kill...alone, but it's not one of those games which can be played with an audience.
I'm not telling anyone to not like the game, but it was DEFINITELY not worth the hype I heard for it. I'd recommend it only to HARDCORE RPG fans. Anyone on the fence, rental.
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Originally posted by: Shecky lol... is that a built in utility for the 360?
Yeah, hold down A as the console boots to defrag.
Post by: zakkiel on April 08, 2006, 08:53:27 PM
QuoteNo. I said you made up the times. MEaning that you didn't take a stopwatch to them, and you're exaggerating for effect.
Thank you for accusing me of lying.
QuoteYou... you just didn't play the game at all, did you? One of the most impressive features of the AI is EXACTLY THE WAY IT LEADS A STRAFING TARGET.
Unless the enemies suddenly learn to grab my shield and tear it from my hand, or lead a strafing target,
QuoteHuh? I like the fact that the world has a realistic complement of objects. Otherwise, I'm indifferent. I just find it amusing that you resorted to this level of trivial complaint.
Apparently, you fall under the "some who might enjoy this aspect" heading.
QuoteI haven't heard of anyoen else finding them creepy.
NPCs which didn't give off a vibe of creepiness.
QuoteJourneyman weapon level
What about disarms?
QuoteYou didn't notice those? Damn, man, did you actually play the game?
Weapon parries?
QuoteNow you're just being ridiculous. Zelda never featured any kind of "limb targeting" except for bosses, and it hasn't bothered anyone. You can't complain about missing features if there aren't any console games with those features.
Limb targeting (targeting in general would have helped, as often you just swing in the general direction of the enemy)?
QuoteThere are times when people say things that are simply wrong, and this is one of those times.
They don't emote like sentient beings at all.
QuoteQuite an ironic reference, given that in the following news post Tycho said, "I finally understand what everyone is talking about where Oblivion is concerned. It started taking my sh!t over each night when I'd come back from SakuraCon, and it was one hundred percent about theergonomics of the platform shift."
Sorry, but Penny Arcade put it best.
Clear ly, you started this game with the intention to hate it, and came up with a list of complaints that are either trivial (too many objects? Too easy to steal?) entirely personal taste (character models) or demonstrably false (target-leading). I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy the game. Your loss.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 08, 2006, 09:00:53 PM
The only big downers are the framerate and loading, because it's 360...
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 08, 2006, 09:26:27 PM
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Originally posted by: zakkiel No. I said you made up the times. MEaning that you didn't take a stopwatch to them, and you're exaggerating for effect.
So "making up times" isn't lying?
I'm quite serious about the times. Like I said, maybe my friend has a 360 with a buggy HD, but these were the issues we were experiencing.
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You... you just didn't play the game at all, did you? One of the most impressive features of the AI is EXACTLY THE WAY IT LEADS A STRAFING TARGET.
I didn't notice it with the earlier monsters, but I don't consider it IMPRESSIVE, I consider it a staple. Banjo-Kazooie had leading AI, FFS. What about the other ideas I mentioned which would have made the monsters more fun? Any of those in the game?
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Huh? I like the fact that the world has a realistic complement of objects. Otherwise, I'm indifferent. I just find it amusing that you resorted to this level of trivial complaint.
That's a micromanaging issue. Some people like to pick through piles of crap. I personally don't find it appealing.
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I haven't heard of anyoen else finding them creepy.
Congratulations on lower standards? All 6 of us in the room found them eerily devoid of emotion.
Find me someone who does NOT nod and make head gestures in their speech and I'll show you a paraplegic. Even StarFox for the N64 had the pilot models giving head gestures in their ships (which you could see during the ending).
In a game which tries to be as real as possible, they badly needed to spend more effort on the NPC interaction.
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Journeyman weapon level
Fair enough. Didn't get that far.
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You didn't notice those? Damn, man, did you actually play the game?
Button mashed, stuff dies. Heal.
To be fair, we didn't jack the difficulty up. Unless the enemies and game together become far more engaging, then I'm sorry but I couldn't fathom making it to the end.
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Now you're just being ridiculous. Zelda never featured any kind of "limb targeting" except for bosses, and it hasn't bothered anyone. You can't complain about missing features if there aren't any console games with those features.
Eternal Darkness featured limb targeting.
Furthermore, why is it so far fetched? In a game which is supposed to be about tactical combat, disabling the limb holding a weapon is sound logic, logic which has been used in melee combat for centuries. Besides, if they fleshed the concept out enough to disarm, why is targeting a limb unheard of?
And like I said, some sort of targeting system would have been nice for sword combat. Forget about the utterly incompetent friendly AI which would run right in front of you while you were hacking away at an opponent. It would have been nice to be able to pick targets rather then facing their general direction, especially in 3rd person mode.
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There are times when people say things that are simply wrong, and this is one of those times.
Alright, you go try to hold a conversation with someone you know but who doesn't play Oblivion. The WHOLE time, hold your neck absolutely still, no nodding or head movements, look the person in the eye on occasion but let your eyes drift around aimlessly most of the time.
See how long it takes before they ask if something is WRONG with you.
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Quite an ironic reference, given that in the following news post Tycho said, "I finally understand what everyone is talking about where Oblivion is concerned. It started taking my sh!t over each night when I'd come back from SakuraCon, and it was one hundred percent about theergonomics of the platform shift."
Who's quoting Tycho? I'm with Gabe on this one. Tycho is the one who bet that "BMX XXX" would succeed.
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Clear ly, you started this game with the intention to hate it
I sat down with an open mind, but it was quickly closed, no wait, those were my eyelids.
Personally, I think YOU'RE biased in that you're being far too forgiving of some of the more blatant atrocities in the design. The fact that you didn't even notice that the NPCs would have passed for robots says this more than anything.
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Too easy to steal?
A potentially punishable action is typically tied to a modifier. It's not gamestopping, no, but it would have made for more intuitive design.
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entirely personal taste (character models)
Disliking the fact that every character is wearing an invisible neck brace is not personal taste. Like I said, act like one of these characters for a day and see if you don't get treated differently at least once for being "specially abled".
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or demonstrably false (target-leading).
I didn't notice it, my bad, but it's not like target leading is going to make the combat miraculously fun and engaging.
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I'm sorry that you couldn't enjoy the game. Your loss.
NOW who's making things up, hmm?
I'm willing to admit that this might just NOT be my type of game, but it was also not the type of game for 5 of my 6 friends who were there for it, either.
I think it would have benefitted from livelier NPCs, a targeting system for melee weapons and...well, I don't know what would have kept it from being less boring.
Post by: Kairon on April 08, 2006, 10:13:19 PM
to be a Fantasy RPG version of GTA...
*ducks*
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Mario on April 08, 2006, 10:27:59 PM
*jumps*
Post by: Kairon on April 08, 2006, 10:45:20 PM
"This is an awesome world you've built for me, but you don't give me enough tools to explore it seamlessly."
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ymeegod on April 09, 2006, 02:51:16 AM
Yeah, I was on the floor laughing my ass off at this comment since in a few months you're be giving Zelda 10 out of 10 too :0.
And your example--ED--has it's flaws as well since you couldn't even target freaking legs and it really didn't matter if you attacked it's arms since the weak point was always it's neck. By the time you lopped off an arm you could have already finished off the enemy with one or two swings to the neck.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 09, 2006, 04:30:56 AM
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I wanted NPCs who moved their necks, shoulders and parts of their face beyond eyes and mouth, or NPCs which didn't give off a vibe of creepiness.
I swear I saw an NPC move their necks a couple of times. I still think this ins't such a big deal.
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You positive those weren't mildly restructured models? They looked pretty damn similar not to be...
Yes, I'm positive.
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Being an RPG is no excuse for having crap for a combat system. Sneak and "power" are pretty goddamn staple attacks. What about disarms? Weapon parries? Limb targeting (targeting in general would have helped, as often you just swing in the general direction of the enemy)? Weak points? Armor removal? Crippling blows? Head attacks to disorient? I didn't play that far in, but were any of these in the game?
Disarms? Get to Journeyman level in your weapon skill and you'll get a disarm power-attack. Parries would have been ridiculously hard to implement, and you can quite easily block an enemies attack and get a good hit in while he's recoiling. Everything else I haven't heard of anything using since Eternal Darkness.
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I never said the voice acting sucked (though it sounds like the same 3-6 voice actors just trying to sound like different people), the facial expressions suck. They don't emote like sentient beings at all. If they had added head shakes, nods, head tilting, shoulder shrugging, SOMETHING, I'd be less harsh on it, but everyone acts like they're wearing an invisible neck brace.
I still say the move a bit, but it's not THAT massive of a deal...
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So you'll need to have played the other three games for this one to hold even a sliver of interest? Sorry, but Penny Arcade put it best. While watching friends play, I was drifting into a slumber myself.
MAYBE I can see the game being engaging if you have plenty of time to kill...alone, but it's not one of those games which can be played with an audience.
I'm not telling anyone to not like the game, but it was DEFINITELY not worth the hype I heard for it. I'd recommend it only to HARDCORE RPG fans. Anyone on the fence, rental.
You clearly aren't the type for this game. No, you don't have to play the first three to understand the story, you just need to listen to the intro! It's not THAT long. Heck, I think Wind Waker's was longer.
QuoteQuote
Originally posted by: Shecky lol... is that a built in utility for the 360?
Yeah, hold down A as the console boots to defrag.
...Wow. The 360 hard drive actually needs defrags?
Post by: KnowsNothing on April 09, 2006, 06:00:13 AM
And for serious Smash, stop trying to get people to not buy the game. There's no bloody point. They might like it, not everyone has to agree with you, and you shouldn't go around convincing people interested in it to not buy it. I guess you have the right to explain why you didn't like it, but at least do that in the reader review section where it's easier to ignore.
Post by: NWR_pap64 on April 09, 2006, 08:03:55 AM
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Originally posted by: KnowsNothing
Seriously, who cares if Smash doesn't like the game. You're not going to make him like it by raping every one of his posts.
And for serious Smash, stop trying to get people to not buy the game. There's no bloody point. They might like it, not everyone has to agree with you, and you shouldn't go around convincing people interested in it to not buy it. I guess you have the right to explain why you didn't like it, but at least do that in the reader review section where it's easier to ignore.
Somebody isn't reading... He NEVER said people shouldn't buy the game. He said:
"I'm not telling anyone to not like the game, but it was DEFINITELY not worth the hype I heard for it. I'd recommend it only to HARDCORE RPG fans. Anyone on the fence, rental."
He is not trying to convince people to not try the game out. He is just pointing the flaws he found in the game that tarnished his experience. It's HIS opinion. At least HE GAVE THE GAME A TRY! Most people jump into conclusions without giving something a proper try.
And what's this?
"I guess you have the right to explain why you didn't like it, but at least do that in the reader review section where it's easier to ignore."
So you're saying that since his opinion on the game goes against the other opinions offered on Oblivion it should be sent to a place where people will not notice it? What kind of BS is that?
People, just because a gazillion magazines gave Oblivion great reviews it doesn't mean that everyone will like it or that what they say is the truth. If you loved the game, fine. But there's no need to dissect S_B down because he didn't like it. He gave the game a try and politely posted his flaws with the game. That's certainly more that some people do down at Gamefaqs.
And S_B is not alone on his sentiment. A great majority of my friends didn't like the game either.
I agree that there's no need to put S_B down just because he didn't like the game, but it's really unfair to make him look like a bad guy because he had the BALLS to say what he really thought of the game, unlike some people who are afraid of going against what other people say. It's called "rational thinking", people. S_B has the right to post his opinion on whatever game in existence, and he shouldn't be censored because of it.
This is who S_B is, people. DEAL WITH IT.
Post by: Kairon on April 09, 2006, 08:54:01 AM
It's sorta surreal that we don't think of it that way though.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: zakkiel on April 09, 2006, 08:58:24 AM
QuoteCongratulations. I didn't really believe there were people subject to the uncanny Valley before. Weird.
Congratulations on lower standards? All 6 of us in the room found them eerily devoid of emotion.
QuoteYou are. Tycho writes the dialogue.
Who's quoting Tycho?
QuoteYes. Disarms, disorienting attacks, etc.
What about the other ideas I mentioned which would have made the monsters more fun? Any of those in the game?
QuoteI let this slide a bunch because I couldn't be sure, but I sat down and played and their eyes wander once in a blue moon and their necks and heads move, necks rarely, and heads usually subtly, exactly as it should be. And clearly you just don't pay attention in regular conversations because people break eye contact all the time, especially in a subordinate position. If someone actually had a conversation with you with their head bobbing around while staring fixedly into your eyes, that would freak you out.
Alright, you go try to hold a conversation with someone you know but who doesn't play Oblivion. The WHOLE time, hold your neck absolutely still, no nodding or head movements, look the person in the eye on occasion but let your eyes drift around aimlessly most of the time.
QuoteNo. In fact, none of the things you lsited make combat miraculously fun and engaging, which is clear from the fact that several of your suggestions were in the game and you still complained about their absence.
I didn't notice it, my bad, but it's not like target leading is going to make the combat miraculously fun and engaging.
QuotePart of the point of combat is that there is no targeting, which eliminates three of those. (Limb targeting, btw, was never a feature of European combat; you hit your opponent however you could, which is pretty much never in the arm.)There is an overhand attack that can paralyze people, and any power attack has a good chance at staggering them. Armor removal would be incredibly cheesy; you do not cut someone's armor off in combat. The only reason you're suggesting this is that you saw it in WW, where it was played for comedy. Similarly, you cull limb targeting from from a completely different game and expect them to put that in as well. You actually count it has an unforgiveable flaw that combat does not have a set of features existing in no other single game.
Limb targeting (targeting in general would have helped, as often you just swing in the general direction of the enemy)? Weak points? Armor removal? Crippling blows? Head attacks to disorient?
In sum: You're like someone who plays SSMB for two hours against level 2 CPUs, then complains that there are only two moves and all you have to do is button mash anyway, and that they don't include a list of yourt favorite moves from Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur (some of which are actually in the game, but you never took the trouble to find out how the combo system works).
QuoteHow about the best quests I've ever seen in a game, period? Not a single one of the optional quests is boring or mundane. How about a stealth system that matches up to games revolving around stealth? How about the most flexible avatar creation in the history of video games? Etc, etc.
I don't know what would have kept it from being less boring.
QuoteThe onyl potentially serious flaw you list is combat, which you have several times now proved you know nothing about.
Personally, I think YOU'RE biased in that you're being far too forgiving of some of the more blatant atrocities in the design.
Post by: animecyberrat on April 09, 2006, 09:39:15 AM
or D&D fans who like to play a fanatasy RPG that actualy lets you play like D & D instead of FF type games thata re just interactive movies. I prefered Balders gate over FF Cc or Tales of symphonia anyday (liked Tales a lot but not as much) I also really like Marrowwind a lot so am expecting I will like Oblivion a lot too. Thanks Smash for shareing your thoughts though it is nice to hear if a game does have reall issue.
I still cant decide if I shoudl upgrade my PC to play this game or get we 360 and call it good.
Post by: Kairon on April 09, 2006, 09:45:03 AM
ALSO: the costs for the downloadable content so far are generally cheaper on the PC, the XBox 360 content tends to cost a little more.
Enjoy spending $2.50 ($1.99 if you're on the PC) to outfit your horse in pretty clothes.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 09, 2006, 09:58:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel Congratulations. I didn't really believe there were people subject to the uncanny Valley before. Weird.
Being subject to the uncanny valley would imply that the NPCs were so incredibly lifelike that they scared us. It was exactly the opposite. Cold, sterile robots.
Quote
You are. Tycho writes the dialogue.
The link goes straight to the comic for a reason. Tycho is the more hardcore RPG nut, the type who would enjoy this game. Gabe is not, and it's his perspective which I'm relating to here. Furthermore, I think the comic aptly summarizes the game.
Quote
I let this slide a bunch because I couldn't be sure, but I sat down and played and their eyes wander once in a blue moon and their necks and heads move, necks rarely, and heads usually subtly, exactly as it should be. And clearly you just don't pay attention in regular conversations because people break eye contact all the time, especially in a subordinate position. If someone actually had a conversation with you with their head bobbing around while staring fixedly into your eyes, that would freak you out.
I've had it happen where someone's eyes WILL wander while I'm talking to them and I immediately jump into "act like you don't notice it because that would be rude" mode. These are people with actual disorders where they have a hard time maintaining ocular focus. The NPCs keep their head pointed straight at you and then their eyes wander around the room, and I don't mean dart, I mean lazily drift about.
It's nitpicking, yeah, but it's clear that this game tried very hard to be realistic and yet fails miserably with the NPCs, one of the most important aspects of any game striving for realism.
Quote
No. In fact, none of the things you lsited make combat miraculously fun and engaging, which is clear from the fact that several of your suggestions were in the game and you still complained about their absence.
So, wait, some of what I suggested was in the game but it DOESN'T make the combat fun and engaging? We didn't play that far before the game became too boring to tolerate, but if you say that the combat gained some of the suggestions I had and it wasn't saved by it, I'll take your word for it.
Quote
Part of the point of combat is that there is no targeting, which eliminates three of those.
Huh? It wouldn't be asking too much to at LEAST select a specific enemy so your melee attacks wouldn't hit the blasted friendlies when they walk right in front of you. Limb targeting or just TARGETING in general would have been welcome. As the current setup goes, you aim yourself in the general direction of the enemy and swing.
Quote
Armor removal would be incredibly cheesy; you do not cut someone's armor off in combat. The only reason you're suggesting this is that you saw it in WW, where it was played for comedy.
Medieval warriors were knocking off helmets and shields long before WW was, and I honestly didn't even REMEMBER that part of WW until you mentioned it.
Quote
Similarly, you cull limb targeting from from a completely different game and expect them to put that in as well. You actually count it has an unforgiveable flaw that combat does not have a set of features existing in no other single game.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I listed it on my list of suggestions for possibly making the combat more engaging. You pulled the "unforgivable flaw" bit straight out of your own arse.
Quote
In sum: You're like someone who plays SSMB for two hours against level 2 CPUs, then complains that there are only two moves and all you have to do is button mash anyway, and that they don't include a list of yourt favorite moves from Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur (some of which are actually in the game, but you never took the trouble to find out how the combo system works).
Sorry, but no. In SSBM, I can immediately set the difficulty to 9 on the bots and fight them: the ability to do this is available immediately.
In Oblivion, how many hours would I have had to play through before the combat becomes interesting (if it ever does at all)?
You've already confirmed for me that the game used a number of the suggestions I gave but that it still didn't save it.
Quote
How about the best quests I've ever seen in a game, period? Not a single one of the optional quests is boring or mundane.
Subjective, subjective, subjective. You've made it quite clear that this game is the second coming of Christ to you so you'll pardon me if your opinion on this subject means nil.
Quote
How about a stealth system that matches up to games revolving around stealth?
It's a good thing this board had a healthy deficit of MGS, Splinter Cell and Tenchu fans or they'd tear out your liver and eat it for a comment like that.
Quote
How about the most flexible avatar creation in the history of video games? Etc, etc.
You can adjust the hell out of a face you almost never see during the game. Woot!
Even PSO had better character creation, because you weren't restricted to the base models like you are in Oblivion and you could actually change your character's height and build (maybe I wanted my cat to be a fat cat...). You can adjust the face all you want, but every like character in the game shares the same body model. World of Warcraft is also guilty of this, but they did it so there would be minimal loading when 50+ players were duking it out in a single area. Why Oblivion in an offline game didn't allow you to change this is beyond me.
Quote
The onyl potentially serious flaw you list is combat, which you have several times now proved you know nothing about.
No, the serious flaw is BOREDOM. The smaller flaws culminate into a dislike of the game because I can only be asked to forgive so much before I say the hell with it.
Combat was boring and repetitive. NPCs are stiff and lifeless. The game induces comas... Alone, these aren't gamestoppers, but when they add up, it reaches a point where the game isn't enjoyable.
I didn't find the game fun. Others might, but like I said, I think you're far more tolerant when it comes to micro management RPGs.
So like I said originally: hardcore RPG fans will very likely enjoy this game. Anyone who doesn't believe they fit that bill should rent it (rent it and a 360 if you have to) before buying it on the PC because you cannot return PC games to most retailers.
That's MY warning to potential buyers: RENT FIRST unless you love micro management RPGs to the extent that zakkiel here does.
Post by: Famicom on April 09, 2006, 10:28:48 AM
Never even seen Morrowind or the previous two Elder Scrolls game, so I didn't exactly have super high expectations or blind faith. The Gamespot review caught my fancy, and I needed something to test out my new PC parts. Haven't regretted my purchase one bit.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 09, 2006, 12:30:56 PM
Quote
I've had it happen where someone's eyes WILL wander while I'm talking to them and I immediately jump into "act like you don't notice it because that would be rude" mode. These are people with actual disorders where they have a hard time maintaining ocular focus. The NPCs keep their head pointed straight at you and then their eyes wander around the room, and I don't mean dart, I mean lazily drift about.
It's nitpicking, yeah, but it's clear that this game tried very hard to be realistic and yet fails miserably with the NPCs, one of the most important aspects of any game striving for realism.
Who said Oblivion strove for 100% photo-realism? It strove to create the world of Nirn, another world with some influences of history in it. And you are making way too big of a deal of this.
Quote
So, wait, some of what I suggested was in the game but it DOESN'T make the combat fun and engaging? We didn't play that far before the game became too boring to tolerate, but if you say that the combat gained some of the suggestions I had and it wasn't saved by it, I'll take your word for it.
Maybe try something BESIDES wildly clicking the mouse? Like timing your attack and blocks?
Quote
Huh? It wouldn't be asking too much to at LEAST select a specific enemy so your melee attacks wouldn't hit the blasted friendlies when they walk right in front of you. Limb targeting or just TARGETING in general would have been welcome. As the current setup goes, you aim yourself in the general direction of the enemy and swing.
That would completely remove the ability to dodge attacks by moving out of the way. Why not add in homing spells and arrows too?
Quote
Medieval warriors were knocking off helmets and shields long before WW was, and I honestly didn't even REMEMBER that part of WW until you mentioned it.
A shield is an armament, not armor. I think you can knock the enemy's shield out of his hands with the disarm move. And no medieval soldier used an attack to actually remove the enemies armor.
Quote
Stop putting words in my mouth. I listed it on my list of suggestions for possibly making the combat more engaging. You pulled the "unforgivable flaw" bit straight out of your own arse.
Your complaining about it so much makes it seem like it is an unforgivable flaw.
Quote
Sorry, but no. In SSBM, I can immediately set the difficulty to 9 on the bots and fight them: the ability to do this is available immediately.
In Oblivion, how many hours would I have had to play through before the combat becomes interesting (if it ever does at all)?
Enemies are leveled, they're meant to give a challenge no matter what level you are. Try another place.
Quote
You've already confirmed for me that the game used a number of the suggestions I gave but that it still didn't save it.
Didn't kil it either.
Quote
Subjective, subjective, subjective. You've made it quite clear that this game is the second coming of Christ to you so you'll pardon me if your opinion on this subject means nil.
Hello? 99.9% of all posts here have been pure opinion.
Quote
It's a good thing this board had a healthy deficit of MGS, Splinter Cell and Tenchu fans or they'd tear out your liver and eat it for a comment like that.
Truth be told, Oblivion does have a good stealth system. Your sneak skill, field of view, the light and even the weight of your boots affects whether or not you're seen. Light most of all. It's impossible to sneak in the middle of the street on a cloudy day. Don't forget sneak attacks and thievery.
Quote
You can adjust the hell out of a face you almost never see during the game. Woot!
Even PSO had better character creation, because you weren't restricted to the base models like you are in Oblivion and you could actually change your character's height and build (maybe I wanted my cat to be a fat cat...). You can adjust the face all you want, but every like character in the game shares the same body model. World of Warcraft is also guilty of this, but they did it so there would be minimal loading when 50+ players were duking it out in a single area. Why Oblivion in an offline game didn't allow you to change this is beyond me.
Ok, so you'd want Bethesda to test clipping with EVER single type of armor and every height combination? not worth the hassle. PSO didn't show what stuff you had equipped.
Quote
No, the serious flaw is BOREDOM. The smaller flaws culminate into a dislike of the game because I can only be asked to forgive so much before I say the hell with it.
Combat was boring and repetitive. NPCs are stiff and lifeless. The game induces comas... Alone, these aren't gamestoppers, but when they add up, it reaches a point where the game isn't enjoyable.
I didn't find the game fun. Others might, but like I said, I think you're far more tolerant when it comes to micro management RPGs.
So like I said originally: hardcore RPG fans will very likely enjoy this game. Anyone who doesn't believe they fit that bill should rent it (rent it and a 360 if you have to) before buying it on the PC because you cannot return PC games to most retailers.
That's MY warning to potential buyers: RENT FIRST unless you love micro management RPGs to the extent that zakkiel here does.
Oblivion has micro-management? What are you talking about?
Post by: zakkiel on April 09, 2006, 02:59:12 PM
QuoteNo. Bwing disturbed by the robotic quality of the imitation is exactly the reaction of people in the uncanny valley. Every older video game I've played uses far more preposterous and mechanical animations than those in Oblivion. Those don't bother you because they don't approach the uncanny valley.
Being subject to the uncanny valley would imply that the NPCs were so incredibly lifelike that they scared us. It was exactly the opposite. Cold, sterile robots.
QuoteGo up to people and ask them to spell Massachussetts backwards, and I guarantee not a single person will maintain eye contact while doing it. People break eye contact all the time, especially when they have to think about what they're saying. In terms of breaking eye contact when they aren't talking, you aren't actually talking to them at all. If you really want to break it down, you're just sitting there occasionally spewing random questions (except when you're using speechcraft, in which case their eyes never wander), and it's you who should be considered disabled. Which illustrates how ridiculous the question is.
I've had it happen where someone's eyes WILL wander while I'm talking to them and I immediately jump into "act like you don't notice it because that would be rude" mode. These are people with actual disorders where they have a hard time maintaining ocular focus.
QuoteBull. My criterion for good quests is variety, creativity, and thoughtfulness. These might be hard to measure if you had any RPGs that were even close (and there might be, I don't know) but none of those I know even try. There is no personal taste involved in deciding that "kill X monsters" is inferior to "rescue a man from his own dreams," that "collect X items" is an incredibly tired cliche next to "expose the town guard's corruption." The MMORPG-style quests are also in Oblivion, but they are just one of a wide set of quests types.
Subjective, subjective, subjective.
QuoteCan't speak for Tenchu, but otherwise the AI's response to stealth is just as good (shadow, movement, occlusion, equipment) if not better. Obviously you don't climb through drainage pipes and strangle people while hanging upside down, if that's what you mean, but that's a set of combat and movement options that would be totally inappropriate to the game.
It's a good thing this board had a healthy deficit of MGS, Splinter Cell and Tenchu fans or they'd tear out your liver and eat it for a comment like that.
QuoteYes. You can also hit that difficulty slider right off the bat, as I mentioned. Which was exactly why I drew the parallel.
Sorry, but no. In SSBM, I can immediately set the difficulty to 9 on the bots and fight them: the ability to do this is available immediately.
QuoteNo clearer indicationt that Western RPGs aren't for you.
You can adjust the hell out of a face you almost never see during the game. Woot!
QuoteYou know what? You're Right. I apologize for paraphrasing "blatant attrocities" as "unforgiveable flaws." I see now you meant something compeltely different. What that something is, I'm sure you'll be happy to explain.
You pulled the "unforgivable flaw" bit straight out of your own arse.
QuoteOnce again, bull. A helmet I might be able to see, but ou didn't knock off a shield except by accident, and then only when your opponent has no idea how to use it. Your objective was to either break the shield , or break the arm underneath. You hold a shield typically by passing your arm through a strap and then grabbing a handle. Those could both break in a badly-constructed shield, but then it's possible to break shields in Oblivion as well. For obvious reasons, however, it takes a heck of a lot of hacking, and your enemy will be dead long before.
Medieval warriors were knocking off helmets and shields long before WW was
QuoteHonestly, I don't think you udnerstand what the word "micromanagement" means, judging from the way you use it. But in any case, there's a heck of a lot more in Diablo (oh, the thrill of sorting your inventory), and we all know how that game turned players away by the score.
That's MY warning to potential buyers: RENT FIRST unless you love micro management RPGs to the extent that zakkiel here does.
QuoteNo, the smaller flaws are efforts to objectify a completely subjective experience. I believe you were bored; I have no problem with that. I have a problem with you attributing that bordeom to design flaws in ways that jsut don't make sense for a variety of reasons. As your own posts reflect, you would be just as bored if they changed everything you want changed. So why do you pretend it's a problem with the game?
No, the serious flaw is BOREDOM. The smaller flaws culminate into a dislike of the game because I can only be asked to forgive so much before I say the hell with it.
QuoteExactly.
You've already confirmed for me that the game used a number of the suggestions I gave but that it still didn't save it.
Post by: Deguello on April 09, 2006, 04:36:06 PM
If Elder Scrolls IV is in any way similar to III, I whole heartedly support Smash Brother's hatered of it. The thing is lacking GAMEPLAY, dudes!
I don't care how expansive the world is when there's nothing to do in it. I don't care how many character options I get when they are all awful. Learn to design games and stop bribing reviewers.
But that's just my opinion.
Post by: Kairon on April 09, 2006, 05:32:08 PM
You've given me such an expansive world to exist in, but you haven't given me the tools I need to seamlessly and freely explore and enjoy and be a part of that world.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 09, 2006, 05:41:40 PM
I can actually make an interesting parallel between the exploration aspect of both Oblivion and Wind Waker...Both had a very large space to cover with seemingly empty expanses...But I love that aspect of both of them...There's something about exploring a vast land, no matter how "empty" or sprawling it is, that gives me a bloody hard-on...Screw the main story, I'm having fun just searching for new caves to spelunk, people to meet, and treasure to find...And the stats are pretty ignorable unless you are a power leveler, which is a good thing to do if you like to SUCK THE SOUL OUT OF GAMES...
So long story short, if you like exploration, it truly is a fun experience...
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 09, 2006, 06:23:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: zakkiel
No. Bwing disturbed by the robotic quality of the imitation is exactly the reaction of people in the uncanny valley. Every older video game I've played uses far more preposterous and mechanical animations than those in Oblivion. Those don't bother you because they don't approach the uncanny valley.
Uncanny valley is when you're so impressed by how lifelike something is that you suddenly are repulsed by it when you realize that it's not living. Like I said, no one was ever impressed my the realism of the NPCs to the point that we'd even reach the first incline on the graph.
Uncanny Valley
The rest of this argument could rage on for days with no end, so I'll just reiterate my warning again with a quote from Bill:
"So long story short, if you like exploration, it truly is a fun experience..."
If you were put off by the sailing in Wind Waker, you probably won't enjoy it. I also had it on the 360 which I hear has some issues that the PC version did not suffer from (at least loading times, but maybe other issues as well). I don't hate the game, I just find it boring and not to my liking, and my goal is to warn fellow like-minded players who would also be bored by the experience but were thinking of picking it up. Rent it first if you're not sure.
$60 is an expensive mistake.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 09, 2006, 06:42:51 PM
Post by: blackfootsteps on April 09, 2006, 07:55:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion ...Screw the main story, I'm having fun just searching for new caves to spelunk, people to meet, and treasure to find...And the stats are pretty ignorable unless you are a power leveler, which is a good thing to do if you like to SUCK THE SOUL OUT OF GAMES...
So long story short, if you like exploration, it truly is a fun experience...
That's the way I look at it, the game reminds me of that Miyamoto quote on the back of the GameCube box. Yeah I don't pay attention to my stats except when there's a spell I really wanna learn. The other day I found out that I'd increased my skills enough to level 4 times at once. It really sucks you in, the subquests (and general stuff around actions) are that interesting.
Post by: ShyGuy on April 09, 2006, 10:42:08 PM
The technology in the game is impressive, but the graphics are ugly and disjointed. Stiff animations, bad modeling, etc. I would need to spend more time with it to comment on the gameplay.
My friend got bored with it after a few days and went back to WoW.
Post by: zakkiel on April 10, 2006, 12:15:34 PM
QuoteRight there in the link.
This gap of repulsive response aroused by a robot with appearance and motion between a "barely-human" and "fully human" entity is called the Uncanny Valley. The name harkens to the notion that a robot which is "almost human" will seem overly "strange" to a human being and thus will fail to evoke the requisite empathetic response required for productive human-robot interaction.
The phenomenon can be explained by the notion that if an entity is sufficiently non-humanlike, then the humanlike characteristics will tend to stand out and be noticed easily, generating empathy. On the other hand, if the entity is "almost human", then the non-human characteristics will be the ones that stand out, leading to a feeling of "strangeness" in the human viewer.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 10, 2006, 12:53:43 PM
It was awkward to watch them move their disjointed mouthes and jerky animations, sure, but I think that was more pity for the developers than anything.
If they had been SO close to real and yet had some bizarre characteristic which always made them seem non-living, then sure, but these were clearly mannequins from the very beginning.
Post by: capamerica on April 10, 2006, 01:19:52 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 10, 2006, 02:57:36 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 10, 2006, 05:14:50 PM
I didn't RENT the damn thing so I could turn around and bitch about it. Why would I willingly give Blockbuster my money for something I expected not to enjoy? I might as well go downtown and pay a 400 lbs. woman to break my nose and crush me between her thighs if I'm going to be into spending my money in a masochistic fashion. I mean, why not jump in with both feet?
I assume that there would be other people who thought as I did: that the game will be enjoyable without needing to have an appreciation for exploration and large periods of downtime where nothing much happens.
I admit I was rather angry and sarcastic in my posting, but I am serious when I say that potential buyers should be warned and should rent the game before buying it if they're on the fence. They might enjoy it, they might NOT. I'm just trying to establish that doubt and I think that a 2-3 page flamewar should hopefully have established that by now.
Post by: MaryJane on April 11, 2006, 12:24:19 PM
Then my brother told me about two of his friends who are currently on their second 360's both of whom have this game. Although they had the same complaints about load times that smash brother did, with the pausing every 20 steps, doors, and weapon selections, they played it a lot, many hours at a time, for a good number of days in a row until... their xbox's burnt out.
You're probably saying the same thing I did... WTF? how does a $450 system burn out? well i don't know either but the guy who's system burnt out first went back to the store, and that's what they told him happened, lucky for him he bought the extended warranty. the second guy didn't buy the extended warranty. he was screwed, they were both told the same thing, the system is burnt out, from over playing it... and told it wasn't an unusual thing to happen. They mustv'e been talking about for 360's cuz when i got baten kaitos, i logged 20 hours over the cours of 2 1/2 days. and the same with final fantasy x.
Anyway, that's just to say i'm never going to buy this system, and I believe the people complaining have legitimate complaints.
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 11, 2006, 02:40:17 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 12, 2006, 11:48:23 AM
Other reasons are:
-Mods
-Better control
-Mods
-Costs less (PC version is $50, 360 is $60)
-Did I mention mods yet?
Really, on the 360, Oblivion has a long lifetime, but on the PC with mods, it never ends. And these aren't the Dev's $2.50-fo-horse-armor mods, I'm talking about the fan-made ones. Let's look at morrwind's. Wizard's Islands: Scourge of the Frost Bringer and White Wolf of LoKKen mountain are shining examples. WI is huge, it adds a long quest and great loot, dungeons and foes. LoKKen is smaller, but almost every yard of it feels lovingly hand-crafted. Great story, too. Then there are the thousands of others.
Just thinking of what modders will do once an importer/exporter for the 3D models in Oblivion makes me drool...
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2006, 12:48:47 PM
I like how you don't add the extra hundreds of dollars it'd cost for the average gamer to boost their PC enough for the game to run at the same level of detail the 360 version does...
Post by: Artimus on April 12, 2006, 01:15:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
-Costs less (PC version is $50, 360 is $60)
I like how you don't add the extra hundreds of dollars it'd cost for the average gamer to boost their PC enough for the game to run at the same level of detail the 360 version does...
My PC will run Oblivion and it's almost 2 years old. To upgrade my ram (by 200MB) so I entirely meet the ideal specs would cost significantly less than a 360.
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2006, 01:28:22 PM
Post by: Artimus on April 12, 2006, 01:43:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I didn't say the specs to run the game, I said to run it at the same level of detail...
That's what I'm talking about.
Post by: Kairon on April 12, 2006, 01:59:26 PM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 12, 2006, 02:37:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
-Costs less (PC version is $50, 360 is $60)
I like how you don't add the extra hundreds of dollars it'd cost for the average gamer to boost their PC enough for the game to run at the same level of detail the 360 version does...
Just let me look up the prices for a second... Ah, here's some thoughts for a PC's cost...
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (socket 939) with PCI-Express motherboard: $190
PowerColor Radeon x800 GTO: $125
Ultra 1024 Mb PC3200 RAM: $54
...And the computer's old hard drive, case, powers supply and mouse and keyboard.
Total: 369 dollars, Plus about $15 for shipping, so about $374.
And that's wthout browsing around for better prices! Now, that's still more then the Core version, but here's what you'd need to play Oblivion on the 360 as well as a high-end PC:
360 Core version: $300
Hard Drive: $99
X-Box Live subscription: $50
...And maybe $60 for a wireless controller with rechargable battery pack.
So, what do you think now, bill?
Post by: capamerica on April 12, 2006, 02:48:01 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 12, 2006, 02:48:06 PM
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on April 12, 2006, 02:54:14 PM
Post by: Kairon on April 12, 2006, 02:55:27 PM
Seriously. If you have a computer lying around anyways, there's no sense in factoring in the cost of things you ALREADY own.
You should measure the costs using your current situation as a zero-point.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 12, 2006, 02:56:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: capamerica
You don't need a Hardrive or Xbox Live to play Oblivion, And the Core system has a wired controller so you don't need a wireless controller too, So subtract $209 from your Xbox360 cost. Thou you do need at least a Memory card to play Oblivion so add $40 for that.
Yes, but since Bill wanted the optimum PC specs, I compared them to the Optimum 360's. The game loads faster with the Hard Drive, and a lot of people would want the wireless controller and X-Box Live for the official mods and stat-tracking. So, I should've used the $400 version.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 12, 2006, 02:58:23 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Professional 666
You forgot Windows XP. Or maybe not.
Nah, it runs on Windows 2000. No difference between XP and 2k, really. I made the assumption a gamer would have a partially up-to-date PC as far as OS goes (legal or illegal).
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 12, 2006, 04:08:38 PM
)I lose! (But I hate messing with my PC's interior, so I'm biased...)
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 12, 2006, 04:37:37 PM
Post by: Infernal Monkey on April 18, 2006, 04:50:44 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 18, 2006, 12:13:09 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 18, 2006, 02:48:14 PM
Post by: zakkiel on April 19, 2006, 02:05:52 PM
QuoteThrow in your earlier comments about creepiness, and that's uh, exactly the reaction of people in the uncanny valley. Like I said, these bothered you in a way that the less realistic, more rigid characters of yore did not. Or so I assume. If not, you must have spent most of your life deeply disappointed in every game you played. If a model becoming more realistic causes less empathy, that's the uncanny valley by definition.
If they had been SO close to real and yet had some bizarre characteristic which always made them seem non-living, then sure, but these were clearly mannequins from the very beginning.
QuoteDuh? There is no game of which that isn't true, reviewer hype aside, aand I speak as someone who as foolishly wasted money many a time before. Always rent if you have the opportunity. At least, if you don't already know you like that particular genre.
but I am serious when I say that potential buyers should be warned and should rent the game before buying it if they're on the fence.
Post by: MysticGohan on April 19, 2006, 02:12:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Awww...I forgot that the 360+HD is 400 bucks, stupid Microsoft...(Not including XBox Live because that's a bunch of crap!
I lose! (But I hate messing with my PC's interior, so I'm biased...)
That's ok Bill, I'm used to messing with PC interiors, I have to everytime I wanna Upgrade the Ram, Vid Card, and add a New Driver. I could help you
Post by: Gamebasher on April 24, 2006, 06:44:43 AM
I now understand why I felt like NOT buying an XBOX360 with Oblivion! I felt that I wanted to wait until the new Zelda: TLP comes out instead. Not that I won´t be buying the XBOX360, I will, but I will never buy the Oblivion game. In particular the parts where you lament the constant slow-downs which sacrifice gameplay over graphics is the best expample I have yet seen to fully demonstrate how right Nintendo was to NOT jump on the graphics wagon this time! Gameplay always comes first!
Funny they named it Oblivion, eh? Because for many people who have played Zelda: OOT or MM adventures, and who have seen the new Zelda adventure coming out later this year on GameCube, Oblivion is one adventure game that will soon fade into... oblivion! It will never be able to beat ZELDA!!
Nobody can beat Nintendo on sheer quality of gameplay and excellence in the accompanying graphics!
The Oblivion game smells badly of being rushed to market, not being done properly in the gaming seems. That I have never seen in any Nintendo game. So that would be why Nintendo never releases a game to market before it is READY. Something Bethesda could learn from!
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 24, 2006, 12:28:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gamebasher
Smash_Brother: THANKS for making this thread!
I now understand why I felt like NOT buying an XBOX360 with Oblivion! I felt that I wanted to wait until the new Zelda: TLP comes out instead. Not that I won´t be buying the XBOX360, I will, but I will never buy the Oblivion game. In particular the parts where you lament the constant slow-downs which sacrifice gameplay over graphics is the best expample I have yet seen to fully demonstrate how right Nintendo was to NOT jump on the graphics wagon this time! Gameplay always comes first!
Funny they named it Oblivion, eh? Because for many people who have played Zelda: OOT or MM adventures, and who have seen the new Zelda adventure coming out later this year on GameCube, Oblivion is one adventure game that will soon fade into... oblivion! It will never be able to beat ZELDA!!
Nobody can beat Nintendo on sheer quality of gameplay and excellence in the accompanying graphics!
The Oblivion game smells badly of being rushed to market, not being done properly in the gaming seems. That I have never seen in any Nintendo game. So that would be why Nintendo never releases a game to market before it is READY. Something Bethesda could learn from!
There's so much wrong with that post, I don't know where to begin...
Alright, first off, please don't try to compare TES to Zelda. It's like comparing a grade A apple to a grade A orange. They're both fruits and both taste great, but the similarites end there. Zelda focuses on dungeons, exploration, puzzles and action, while TES focuses on story, exploration, character development and sheer size. They both rock in their own ways. As a PC gamer and loyal Nintendo gamer, I am certain they'll both be A+ games.
Next, I have only gotten slowdown when TRYING to cause it. Normally, the frame rate is smooth as silk. That's with me on the PC version. From what I saw of the 360 version, it didn't seem to slow down from the short bit I saw.
And about it being rushed, it's not. So far I -and two other peolpe I know- have not had it crash once. Nope, not a single time. Heck, I haven't even found a single glitch yet. And Oblivion wasn't rushed. It was set for a December release, but the Devs took the risk of missing the Christmas season to spend more time tubning the game. If they were rushing it, it would have came out then.
Post by: capamerica on April 24, 2006, 04:05:28 PM
One of my friends got the PC version and he did find that all the slow downs were not in the PC version, then again he also had to have the game set on the low settings, His PC only met half of the recommended settings. He also thinks that maybe if you were to set it at the same quality as the Xbox360 you might get all the slow downs if you don't have a Top of the Top of the line PC.
He also didn't care for it and after about a week he grew very tired of it and just stopped playing it all together.
Some people like the game some people hate it. So far all my friends hate the game and feel it was only half made and is very overrated.
Post by: KnowsNothing on April 24, 2006, 04:20:24 PM
Which control setup is better? the real answer is revolution dur. I know what the interface is like, and honestly I think it'd work quite well with the 360 controller, which is what I've been hearing. Of course I'd prefer the mouse for looking around, but I have a really hard time playing most games with a keyboard, and I love the feeling of a controller in my hand. The only complaint I've been hearing is that setting hot keys with the number pad is far superior to using the D-pad, but honestly my brain doens't function well with the number pad. All these years of console gaming has made me more comfortable using the D-pad, even for hot keys, so I don't think that that would be a probelm.
This is assuming, of course, that I can use the 360 controller for the PC version of oblivion, but since it functions as a PC controller as well I don't see why not. The thing is, the 360 controler is like $40 and that's kind of a lot, especially since I'm busting the old piggy-bank for this PC (and also borrowing a thousand bucks :S), so I wanted to know if it would be worth it. I guess it'd basically be like playing the 360 version without all the terrible problems and such.
So, which is better? >_> (or not even which is better, but is the 360 controller not terribly clunky and awkward?)
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 24, 2006, 07:16:50 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 24, 2006, 07:55:21 PM
Post by: wandering on April 24, 2006, 08:02:36 PM
Post by: capamerica on April 25, 2006, 03:45:42 AM
BUT you have to be using Windows XP or Windows Vista since they are the only 2 versions of Windows Microsoft has written drivers for the 360 controller.
Post by: Gamebasher on April 25, 2006, 09:24:25 AM
I find your experiences with Oblivion interesting, because unlike Stabbalot you did indeed find the faults that I mentioned I had heard of. Incidentally, I have also SEEN those slow-down problems (in a video demo), and when I saw it, I felt very bad indeed. For the sake of pure interaction with a game world, intuitive IMMERSION in it, such slow-downs should simply not be there in the first place! I also sampled Oblivion in an EB games shop, and the level I played was inside some underground area with lots of rats and a few goblins. The level I saw with the slow-down, was outside in a field where there was an Oblivion gate, and the slow-downs were there every 20-30 seconds. It looked awfull. When a game does that, I totally lose my immersion in the gameworld, like being hauled out of a good dream by some disturber of sound sleep or something, that is how it felt to me. So basically I don´t care about that game, nomatter how big it may be. Too big for proper hardware handling if you ask me! Nintendo would not have relased such a game to the market, but rather have optimized it again, so that such issues were fixed right then and there, ironed out good and proper, and only then released to market.
That is why I said Bethesda should learn from Nintendo (concerning gameplay issues).
Post by: KDR_11k on April 25, 2006, 09:41:20 AM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 25, 2006, 11:09:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Gamebasher
Capamerica,
I find your experiences with Oblivion interesting, because unlike Stabbalot you did indeed find the faults that I mentioned I had heard of. Incidentally, I have also SEEN those slow-down problems (in a video demo), and when I saw it, I felt very bad indeed. For the sake of pure interaction with a game world, intuitive IMMERSION in it, such slow-downs should simply not be there in the first place! I also sampled Oblivion in an EB games shop, and the level I played was inside some underground area with lots of rats and a few goblins. The level I saw with the slow-down, was outside in a field where there was an Oblivion gate, and the slow-downs were there every 20-30 seconds. It looked awfull. When a game does that, I totally lose my immersion in the gameworld, like being hauled out of a good dream by some disturber of sound sleep or something, that is how it felt to me. So basically I don´t care about that game, nomatter how big it may be. Too big for proper hardware handling if you ask me! Nintendo would not have relased such a game to the market, but rather have optimized it again, so that such issues were fixed right then and there, ironed out good and proper, and only then released to market.
That is why I said Bethesda should learn from Nintendo (concerning gameplay issues).
Eh, well, I only saw a little bit of the 360 version, mostly in the city of Skingrad and in an Oblivion gate (Didn't see it from outside). I can't really say anything about that, but I don't see how one or two seconds of slowdown could ruin immersion.
Remember, there are lots of chances for the game to slow down. But how is the framerate dropping bellow 30 FPS in a particularly demanding environment a 'Gameplay Issue'? Oblivion isn't THAT fast-paced.
And why do you keep comparing Bethesda to Nintendo? It's not very fair. Nintendo has a lot more rescurces then 3rd-party (at least I'm pretty sure) Bethesda, and Nintendo doesn't have to scale their games to run on two completely different platforms, so it's a lot easier to optimise the engine. Both make good games, let's leave it at that.
Post by: capamerica on April 25, 2006, 04:01:03 PM
1-2sec I could easily excuse. But when the game stops long enough that you look to your friends and say "WTF?" then that is a problem.
The PC version from what I've heard was solid. but from my experience and others I have talked to the 360 version was very buggy.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 25, 2006, 04:27:18 PM
EDIT: Bingo, I just realised what the pausing was from. Did this 360 have the hard drive or no? The game loads faster with the hard drive, and tyou may have been unluck enough to be fighting next to the exterior cell's border. So, you strife a little to the left to dogde that fireball, you cross the boundry and the game needs to load the area you're now in. For me, the change isn't noticable most of the time, but if you were lacking a hard drive, the time may go up. And that constant dumping of the RAM may have been helping the slowdown.
Post by: capamerica on April 25, 2006, 05:24:42 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 26, 2006, 12:02:26 PM
Post by: capamerica on April 26, 2006, 01:20:08 PM
Post by: denjet78 on April 27, 2006, 01:03:59 AM
First off, the art direction sucks, in all of them, period. I tried getting into them. I played a little Baulders Gate, Icewind Dale, a couple others that I can't remember the names of because I just don't care. And the art in all of them just sucked... How can anyone like a game that just looks so... so UGLY!
Second, two many options. Way, WAY too many options. Why am I spending an hour-and-a-half SETTING UP my game? Am I going to get to play any time soon? I have to choose my charaters - What species are they going to be? Male or female? I get to pick a job class? HOW MANY ARE THERE? Now if I pick a human male and make him this, when he levels up enough he can become this but a female human gets these options instead? Wait, what does the flying monkey turn into after level 57 if he's got this job? ARGH! Oh, and now I have to pick my characters stats too? And I can customize what they look like but in the end they're all fugly anyway? Now where in the manual does it say how many saving throws I get? Page 4, 938? Or was that page 3,675? Why doesn't this damn thing have an index?
Third, the nerds who invented Dungeons & Dragons should be shot, and along with them all of their family, friends, aquaintances, people who saw them on the bus, just anyone who knows they exist at all.
Fourth, they tend to make no sense, and they make no qualms about that. So I build my characters (and I have no idea what I did to them anyway) and then I'm dropped off at what appears to be some random location, maybe given a little bit of the back story, and then told to go on my way. On my way where? Just... wander around until I find something? Well there's a cave and... Oh wait, I'm dead now. What happened? I didn't see any rats! Let's try this again. I'm not going into that cave this time though. Instead I go into town and the first person I talk to kills me. Why? What the HELL did I DO? I even pressed the attack button this time but nothing happened! Oh, I have to equip my weapons before they work? Okay... And just where would I find said weapons? And would someone just kill that damn monkey already? If he buzzes me one more time I SWEAR to god...
Fifth, now take all that crap online and add all the other insanity that goes with that including PKers. 'Nuff said.
Sixth, I think I'm going to run downstairs and get a soda. This whole list thing has made me kind of parched if you know what I mean.
Seventh, I don't really need a seventh do I? How about just: "I HATE WES-TERN R-P-GS!"
THEY SUCK!
THEY SUCK!
THEY SUCK!
And it's too late to try and change my opinnion. Because of some bad experiencs, some REALLY bad experiences, all Western RPGs suck in my mind and it's going to take a while before I'm willing to give up on that prejudice and give them another try. Maybe when they come out with one that isn't set in Middle Earth or set in the Middle Ages or whatever else crappy place universe that D&D style games are set it. It's the same reason why I can't stand FPS games. They're either all set in the distant future or in WWII. People, a little originality wouldn't kill you... Would it? I mean I'm asking because I don't know. It's only polite. They might be alergic to it or something seeing as how they seem to avoid it like the BLACK PLAGUE.
I guess I should end this huh? It's like almost 3am and I have to be up by 8. I should really get some sleep...
*ahem*...
WILL YOU BE MY FRIEND?
Post by: Kairon on April 27, 2006, 06:58:33 AM
I too dislike Western RPGs.
Westerners should just completely shift over to MMORPGs and revive the dead "adventure" game genre, those are really what Western RPGs are even though they lie to themselves otherwise.
The Elder Scrolls is basically an MMORPG, or is it the other way around? And any puzzle mechanics or gameplay mechanics in Western single-player RPGs can be much better done in adventure games.
It's not that I don't appreciate what you're doing Bethesda, and others. It's just that I think you're altogether horribly misguided.
... Except for Planescape: Torment... I haven't played that, but from what I hear it actually IS something worth investigating as opposed to all these D&D knock-offs.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: wandering on April 27, 2006, 09:38:25 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 28, 2006, 08:54:13 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 28, 2006, 03:56:17 PM
What is WRONG with you? More MMORPGs is NOT a good thing...
Post by: denjet78 on April 28, 2006, 07:39:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Just because you don't like RPGs doesn't mean they all suck.
Who said I hate RPGs? I LOVE RPGs! It's my favorite genre. Has been ever since I played the original FF on my NES about... Wow, it's been over 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're not paying attention.
I hate RPGs NOW. I still love my old school games.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on April 30, 2006, 03:22:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: denjet78Quote
Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Just because you don't like RPGs doesn't mean they all suck.
Who said I hate RPGs? I LOVE RPGs! It's my favorite genre. Has been ever since I played the original FF on my NES about... Wow, it's been over 15 years. Time sure does fly when you're not paying attention.
I hate RPGs NOW. I still love my old school games.
Ok, so you hate Western RPGs with a flaming passion, but like the Japanese style, correct? Heh, exact opposite of me. I love thw Western style but can't stand the turn-based systems. To each his own, I guess.
And to be honest, I HATE MMOs. It's hardly a community, everyone's just running arnound solo and absolutly no one seems to roleplay at all, even on RolePlay servers! It's all "wheres teh phat lewt?!?" "How I mine 4 fish?" "Spare change 4 a noob?!?". Gimme TES anyday.
Post by: Frozen Atlantic on May 09, 2006, 06:21:26 PM
I'll upgrade my PC, fix the character models, and let er rip. Fun times. What's to complain about?
EDIT: I don't mean hawt like... nekkid fairies or something. Hawt like good.
Yeah.
Post by: Syl on May 27, 2006, 08:10:52 AM
120 hours in, finished most of the main quests, enjoyed almost every bit of it. The game's combat is a bit lacking (of course), but it does get incredibly difficult once you reach higher levels. I played as a battle mage conjurer for the most part. Summoned by helper, used him to tank and then whacked away with my sword and spells till the enemies died. There were many instances where tactics played an absolutely vital role in my surviving.
The ending to the mains story was excellent, but the Dark Brotherhood storyline was the best (with some of the best writing i've ever seen in a game). The final Thieves Guild mission is something that needs to be experienced. Even though I was horrible at sneak.
And for everyone who complains about the graphics, here are some screenshots: (Taken with my computer - the jaggies don't look that bad in game, but the jpeg compression amplifies them.) My computer isn't "top of the line" it's closer to mid-range now, and i was easily pulling 25FPS outside and 60fps inside, with the loading times almost never existing. (Of course, i had a few mods that removed the annoying "loading" messages so it was seamless.) Of course, my harddrive is an absolute beast (WD Raptor 74gig), so my complete lack of load times (except for the few seconds entering a city) is something that won't be exactly the same for everyone.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion24.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion18.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion19.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion21.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion22.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion23.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion14.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion15.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion16.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion17.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion8.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion10.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion11.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/Sylaran/Game%20Screens/Oblivion1.jpg
Picture 17 is a (very old) picture of my character. If you're wondering why he's so damn ugly - it's cause I'm a vampire, stage 2 in that picture I believe. (I love how vampirism was added to the gameplay, it was done incredibly well.)
The game is absolutely beautiful and I never really found the character models distracting. I thought they were very well done - in the entire game i never came across 2 people who looked the same. (With the exception of the twins). Even the non-human races managed to have individual characters that were unique. The voice acting was a bit too similar all around, but considering how many lines they gave voice acting too - it's rather incredible.
The game didn't interest me at first till i left the sewers and started to randomly explore the countryside, by about hour 3 or 4 i was hooked and didn't stop playing for an entire month. After finishing the dark brotherhood the new game vibe wore off and i started playing it less and less till i finished the main storyline (and did most of the sidequests - excellent as they are) and eventually moved onto other things. Still, oblivion is damn good.
To those complaining about loading on the 360:
play the game a few times and the loading will almost entirely dissapear. The game is loading things to harddrive for the first few sessions, once it's done cacheing the majority of the game, the loading is far faster.
Of course, i'd highly, highly reccomend the PC version instead. Better controls, more customizable, far, far more mods (mmm... Obscuros Oblivion Overhaul....) and just all around better. Of course, i'm the type of guy that would essentially prefer the PC vrsion of *any* game, unless the porting was horrible.
Post by: KnowsNothing on May 27, 2006, 04:18:45 PM
Post by: Syl on May 27, 2006, 05:36:23 PM
The game is absolutely beautiful, and considering how much stuff is in the game, it's amazing that every single thing in it is handcracted. To my knowledge, only the oblivion gates are random dungeons - and even then, the "Random" part is that it chooses a particular oblivion gate realm from a huge list - so it is still handcrafted, but you just don't know which one you're going to get.
I'm not entirely sure what about it looks boring? Please explain, in any of those pictures i just posted, what about them is lacking "imagination and love!" The attention to detail in Oblivion is absolutely mindboggling. Which is the exact opposite of what you stated. It is *very* far from "bland and generic" aside from perhaps, enemy types and race stereotypes. (Even though the enemy types are generic, the models are very far from it). They are keeping in line with Elder Scrolls Arena - which is a 15 year old game now.
Post by: SixthAngel on May 27, 2006, 07:05:59 PM
While everything in Oblivion is technically pretty it is artistically ugly. The enemies (and character models) are detailed but they are so generic and could really use something to make them memorable. As an example I will use Warcraft. Orcs and humans are fantasy fodder yet all of these character designs are fresh and unmistakably Blizzard. Bethesda doesn't and shouldn't need to go the same way with their designs but they need to do something to make things interesting. Designs of many things just seem dull and unimaginative now.
Post by: Syl on May 27, 2006, 08:13:54 PM
The main limitations come from the game itself, each and every single piece of equipment or item you see in the game can be manipulated. Any and all clothing, armor, weapons, etc. that enemies have - you can pick up and use. While many of the enemies come from generic backgrounds - they have a far more "classical" look to them. As i said, this actually enhanced the immersion for me. When striving for realism, you must give realistic attributes to things, you can't go on wildly divergent style. All of the towns, buildings, random locations and flora and fauna was absolutely amazingly well done. The wilderness is just wonderful to walk around in. I spent the majority of my game running around the wilderness picking flowers and such. Yes, certain things could be improved upon - but it's like that with any game.
Yet again, the game has a legacy to keep up with. It's the 4th game in a series that is built upon realism and enemy styles from the late 80's/early 90's. This is the style that the game kept up with, it's the style the game does very well. Yes, the game does approach uncanny valley at times, but with a few tweaks (mainly involving stopping that horrendous ultra-close-up zoom during talking) i've really liked it. It may be difficult to make someone "pretty" in oblivion, but it is very much the same way in real life, these people live a hard life and really have no reason to look like beauty queens. Yet again, it's part of the problem when Realism is the goal.
What the game "lacks" in art - it completely makes up for in Writing and quests. The quests are the meat and bones of the game, and many of the quests are some of the best i've ever came across. Sure they almost all rely on scripted events and specific actions, but they are all made so incredibly enjoyable. They actually feel plausible, real quests with a real goal - even the (extremely, extremely few) "Find X amount of this, or Kill X amount of that" manage to make sense because of how the writing backs it up. There are some sick and twisted things in oblivion if you dig enough to find them. (Part of the reason i wonder why the hell the game got away with a "T" to begin with - although that's a different argument)
Of course, morrowind to me is an entirely different beast to me, the game world was so barren that i really could not stand the damn game. (Not to mention that many parts of the game were horribly broken.)
Post by: Syl on May 27, 2006, 08:13:54 PM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on May 30, 2006, 05:18:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
I feel the same way as KnowsNothing. I also felt that way about Morrowind. I liked the game but found it uninspiring.
While everything in Oblivion is technically pretty it is artistically ugly. The enemies (and character models) are detailed but they are so generic and could really use something to make them memorable. As an example I will use Warcraft. Orcs and humans are fantasy fodder yet all of these character designs are fresh and unmistakably Blizzard. Bethesda doesn't and shouldn't need to go the same way with their designs but they need to do something to make things interesting. Designs of many things just seem dull and unimaginative now.
Oh, you mean Blizzard, as in the company that applied to make an RTS based on the Warhammer licence, was turned down and created WarCraft, a title laughably similar yet just far enough away to avoid a lawsuit? Sorry, I geat really angry when I hear people (unknowingly, of course) praise Blizzard for ripping off Games Workshop. And I'm tired. I'll fix up this rant tomorrow.
EDIT: Here comes the fixing up. Just take a peek at the Orcs in Warhammer (Clicky link). Now compare Blizzard's orcs. Both share a heavily disporportionate lower jaw, a heavily barbaric appearence and, most importantly, were originally similar in character. Orcs in WarCraft were originally controlled by something (forgive me here, I'm not 100% sure), and Orcs in Warhammer are brutal but not aligned with evil. They kill both Ummies an' dem Chaos boyz (soory, had to add in the Orc voice). Both are dangerous but not truly evil. No other Orcs share that. LotR Orcs are purely evil destroyed humans, and Bethesdas Orcs are just another race, as civilized as any other.
There's many more similarities, such as that both elves are afraid of using magic. Where else have you heard of magic being dangerous? In Warhammer, magic is dangerous because it calls upon the power of the Chaos Gods, and only mortals with incredubly strong wills can use it without being corrupted. In WarCraft, dark elves don't like to use magic for fear of it brining back the Burning Legion.
I won't even get started on StarCraft ripping off Warhammer 40k. There's so much there. Protoss are COMPLETE ripoffs of Eldar. Heck, their psychic powers even share names. Terran marine armor looks so much like Space Marine armor (Pic)
it's not funny. And don't get me started on Zergs and Tyranids. Both are controlled by a single leader (be it Hive Mind or Overmind) and look almost the same(Take a look).
Really, all Blizzard does is steal ideas from Warhammer and Warhammer 40k and remove the grimness.
*NOTE: This is not intended to insult anyone (except Blizzard), rather it is meant to inform.*
Post by: Smash_Brother on May 31, 2006, 07:31:09 AM
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Originally posted by: Sir_Stabbalot
Oh, you mean Blizzard, as in the company that applied to make an RTS based on the Warhammer licence, was turned down and created WarCraft, a title laughably similar yet just far enough away to avoid a lawsuit? Soory, I geat really angry when I hear people (unknowingly, of course) praise Blizzard for ripping off Games Workshop. And I'm tired. I'll fix up this rant tomorrow.
Is that true???
If so, I had no idea this was the case...
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on May 31, 2006, 11:20:34 AM
Fleshing out my rant in a second...
Post by: Kairon on May 31, 2006, 11:54:51 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: SixthAngel on June 01, 2006, 08:15:39 PM
I didn't praise Blizzard in my orignal post just commented on their style but I'll take a crack at defending them.
Blizzards interest in the Warhammer franchise obviously means that they liked the fantasy setting so their are similarities. Many of your points are simply fantasy fodder. Orcs with big lower jaws and barbaric appearances are the classic orc because since LOTR they have been barbaric. A big lower jaw makes a character look brutish. In the original Warcraft the orcs were the badguys who followed the demons but the story has changed recently since they became good in 3. Being afraid of magic is another ripoff from LOTR where everyone is afraid of the magic ring. Warhammer just seems more of ripoff because of the corrupting thing. Starcraft I can't comment on because I never played it much but I always thought the Zerg were ripoffs of the aliens from Alien. 40k's aliens seem to be too.
Warcraft has similarities to Warhammer but a different story and game was made using classic fantasy characters. It borrows elements from the many fantasy works that came before it just as Warhammer does. and each sequal fleshes out the world even more. Every fantasy tale rips of LOTR but people don't run around saying "Warhammer sucks." Since they also made Diablo I assume they have a general love for fantasy. Finally Blizzard just makes good games. The games were good and the gameplay was there idea.
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on June 03, 2006, 10:57:51 AM
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I said that Oblivion needs its own style not take Blizzards "dripping" style. They are going for realism, I know. That in no way negates the use of style, especially when the characters are obviously not real (the graphics are good but the uncanny valley? please). Plenty of other games that go for realism add a specific style. Making someon pretty should be easy with all that hardware too. Games in the past managed to do it and they had far less to work with. This is one reason I think Oblivion is so mod friendly like Morrowind. It's general lack of a specific style and design means that it is easy to design new items and objects that actually look like they belong in the world. I liked Morrowind and I am positive I would like this game if I had it but this is a weak point. Perhaps making the world huge caused sacrifices in the amount of time they could design enemies and characters.
So, you don't have the game and are just going on what people say? Bah, the faces aren't bad, sure there's the occasional bad one but its almost never something completely unnatural. And as for style, I don't quite see what you mean.
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I didn't praise Blizzard in my orignal post just commented on their style but I'll take a crack at defending them.
Blizzards interest in the Warhammer franchise obviously means that they liked the fantasy setting so their are similarities. Many of your points are simply fantasy fodder. Orcs with big lower jaws and barbaric appearances are the classic orc because since LOTR they have been barbaric. A big lower jaw makes a character look brutish. In the original Warcraft the orcs were the badguys who followed the demons but the story has changed recently since they became good in 3. Being afraid of magic is another ripoff from LOTR where everyone is afraid of the magic ring. Warhammer just seems more of ripoff because of the corrupting thing. Starcraft I can't comment on because I never played it much but I always thought the Zerg were ripoffs of the aliens from Alien. 40k's aliens seem to be too.
Warcraft has similarities to Warhammer but a different story and game was made using classic fantasy characters. It borrows elements from the many fantasy works that came before it just as Warhammer does. and each sequal fleshes out the world even more. Every fantasy tale rips of LOTR but people don't run around saying "Warhammer sucks." Since they also made Diablo I assume they have a general love for fantasy. Finally Blizzard just makes good games. The games were good and the gameplay was there idea.
Everything is based on something else, that's true. Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon writing, and found inspiration from many of their anchient myths. But, he didn't copy them. He was inspired by them, but didn't just take them,change the names and context and call it his own. Warhammer di much the same. Orcs are presented as a truly barbaric and brutal race- but not truly evil. The Empire of Man is a highly corrupt and brutal state held only together by the Emporer Karl Franz. Magic is dangerous because it draws on the powers of the Chaos Gods. What other fantasy has such ideas? Sure, they were inspired by other ideas, but they add the grim Warhammer touch to them. And in Arhammer 40k, the tyranids, while clearly based on ALiens, have thewir own touch to them. They don't hatch from eggs laid in people, they instead invade a world and begin to dissolve any biological matter and any minerals they find into a goo to create more tyranids. Blizzard, however, has only recently begun to change their stories to be different. Sure, by now WarCraft has a unique storyline, but it still was originally a ripoff of Warhammer.
Sure they make good games, I agree. But the style is still from Warhammer.
Post by: wandering on January 14, 2008, 10:21:58 PM
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There's no point to photo realism when everyone and everything in the game is FUGLY.
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I don't know how long I spent trying to create a non-ugly character before I just gave up and went with a non-human.
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And I can customize what they look like but in the end they're all fugly anyway?
My character isn't ugly!
Post by: Infernal Monkey on January 16, 2008, 08:25:24 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on January 17, 2008, 04:37:46 AM
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Originally posted by: wandering
My character isn't ugly!
Lies.
Post by: wulffman04 on January 18, 2008, 05:46:28 PM
I don't have a compy that could run it well.
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 18, 2008, 06:08:33 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on January 18, 2008, 07:58:34 PM
Post by: Maverick on January 18, 2008, 08:08:35 PM
Post by: Ronnieeuda on January 19, 2008, 12:47:37 AM
last day, i saw a guy making his oblivion character HUUGE. very very tall...
can anybody tell how did he do this?
to see the video type in on youtube.com "annah grows"
thx
greetings
Post by: Bill Aurion on January 19, 2008, 03:24:11 AM
