Post by: eljefe on March 14, 2006, 01:25:03 PM
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The interesting thing is that the main issue that people are getting worked up about, with the Revolution, is this perception that it's breaking ties with everything that's come before, just so Nintendo can wave around its new sparkling innovation and try to attract non-gamers with shallow, arm-tiring mini-games. I mean hell, how can you play Gran Turismo on the Revolution controller, never mind that Gran Turismo is Sony's own personal series? And... never mind the expandable nature of the pad?...Heck, doesn't Nintendo care at all about what's been accomplished over the last twenty years? About the kinds of games that Real Gamers like to play?
The better question, I think, is what do current controllers lack? What are the limitations of buttons? What can't players express with buttons alone?
Let's go back to what buttons do offer. They act as direct verbs, for the player: do this, do this to this degree, or do this particular variant of this. As I said, it's all straightforward. So, therefore, are contemporary videogames, usually relying on blunt action on the player's part (usually violent in nature)...There's not a lot of room for subtlety or nuance. The most subtlety you can get comes from analog control and state-shifting, and both of those are just jury-rigs to the system.
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Reading about the Revolution, I have quickly become bored of the constant suggestions people offer, trying to justify Nintendo's bizarre new idea of a videogame system. If I see one more article about light saber battles, I... well. I'm just disappointed, is all. It's like everyone is going out of his way to think up the flashiest tech demo in town, when the actual benefit of the system and its controller comes not in the amazing new sparkling innovations it will facilitate, or in anything that will ever require the player to flail his arm around the room. All the Revolution does, really, is add a new layer to our existing idea of game controls. Or to be more specific, to the NES pad: to the core that all current pads are built upon.
..Imagine pressing "up" on the D-pad makes your character walk upward. Now imagine if pressing "up" and tilting the controller forward makes your character run. Tilting the controller back and pressing "up" will make your character tiptoe. If your character is running, and you bank the controller left, your character will feign to the left, while still going as full-tilt as he can, forward. And you do this all without pressing more than a single button.
Example two. Let's say that big, honkin' A button makes your sweaty man-warrior lash out with his arm. Hit it, he punches. Hit it and flick the front of the controller up slightly, he does an uppercut. Hit the button and rock the controller to the left, he does a right hook. And so on.
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The single button and single trigger, plus the unusual design, serve to simplify and defamiliarize the controller for people intimidated by normal gamepads, and to strip the pad back to NES levels for the sake of illustration. The message is, hey, on a basic level this is all you need. This, plus the magic ingredient we're adding.
What the Revolution does, on a hardware level, is basically the same thing that Katamari Damacy and Rez do and, to an extent, something like Ico does, as software: it strips everything down to the barest minimum, so it can add nuance: substance, context, meaning. So it can show how poignant how little can be, such that in the future someone else can build on this foundation and do something even greater. Now think about that for a moment. Imagine playing Rez with the Revolution controller. Or Katamari Damacy. Or heck, on the stupidly obvious level, try Super Monkey Ball.
Nintendo's doing two things here. One, it's a symbolic gesture. The Revolution is a revolution in the sense that it goes all the way back to the beginning: we've been through the gauntlet and this is round two at designing a gamepad. Two, it serves to show how superficial all of the additions of the last twenty years have been. As if to drive the point home, the pad is expandable. What, you want twenty more buttons? A nunchuck? A sleeve that turns the controller into a vorpal sword? Here, have them. Go wild. Play your first person punching whatevers. Just know that whatever you tack on, it's no more than an expansion to the basic design – just as every other controller you've touched was to our first pad. Kind of ballsy, though hey. They do have a point.
SOURCE ARTICLE
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2006, 02:06:36 PM
When I see a million sword swinging games I don't think people are missing the point. I think we're getting so many lame suggestions like that because the Rev concept just isn't as liberating as one would think at first glance. I think it's rather telling that we're struggling to think of ideas. Isn't the point of this to jump start creativity and innovation? If that's true I would think that maybe the various suggestions for game ideas would be a little better. Wouldn't all of us be inspired by the design and not just Nintendo or other developers? Now we haven't used the thing and that might be a crucial element in that "jump start" process. After getting a go with the controller we all might come up with more ideas than sword swinging and boxing.
"Imagine pressing 'up' on the D-pad makes your character walk upward. Now imagine if pressing 'up' and tilting the controller forward makes your character run. Tilting the controller back and pressing 'up' will make your character tiptoe. If your character is running, and you bank the controller left, your character will feign to the left, while still going as full-tilt as he can, forward. And you do this all without pressing more than a single button."
This doesn't sound too different than what I can do in Super Mario 64 with the analog stick. It's a little different since you can push forward and rotate at the same time but it's not much. The punch example isn't that exceptional either. I can do three punches by pushing A, forward and A, back and A. I do agree that there is a level of subtlety that can be added but it's so subtle that I question if it's really that significant.
Plus there's the idea that everything after the NES in controller design is just fluff and we never really needed any of that. That's a load of crap. Brilliant games like Super Mario 64 have been created as a result of an addition to the standard controller. Without those additions those games wouldn't exist. That makes those additions important. Plus I fail to see how removing these elements is necessary to have that subtlety. If I want to do any of those examples listed why do I have to have a remote with only a d-pad and two buttons? Why wouldn't gyros in a Cube controller provide me with that same subtlety?
Bash the sword swinging ideas all you want but at least they provide an excuse to remove functionality. They're trying to mimic hand movements so the shape of the controller makes sense. But with this example all we're doing is slightly pushing the controller in a direction or rotating it. We don't need a remote shape for that and we don't need to tear off the extra doodads to do it either.
Thankfully there's still the shell but until I see the shell and read an annoucement from Nintendo that it will be included with EVERY controller it may was well not exist. The only way to ensure that third parties will use it, if it's more appropriate, is if they have assurance that every Rev player can play it and only by making it a standard part of the controller will that be achieved. Even every console doesn't cut it because that doesn't take into account multiplayer games. Until Nintendo assures us that this will be the case then the shell and all the other attachments might as well not exist. They're useless unless everyone has them.
Anyway to get back on topic the writer needs to give me a good idea to sell me on these subtleties. I just see a bunch of theory. Proof is something the Rev concept lacks and considering how radical it is it needs that proof. This is the same way.
Post by: mantidor on March 14, 2006, 02:34:56 PM
And Thief for the Rev, with pickpocketing and lockpicking would be just awesome, and a good example of subtlety.
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on March 14, 2006, 02:45:02 PM
Post by: Switchblade Cross on March 14, 2006, 03:23:24 PM
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Originally posted by: ViewtifulGamer
I'm probably the most sold on this concept because I read the 100+ entries for the Dream Game Revolution Contest. You guys, the readers, had awesome ideas that were totally workable and took advantage of the controller. At someone's request, I wouldn't mind posting some of the better ones (considering I have the pile saved on my computer somwhere...).
Consider that request, submitted...
Post by: Darkheart on March 14, 2006, 03:25:10 PM
Post by: RiskyChris on March 14, 2006, 03:28:53 PM
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on March 14, 2006, 03:57:59 PM
"What would PilotWings be without the planes, helicopters, and parachutes? Grounded.
But what if you could retain that freedom of flight without need for a license, a flight plan, or safety equipment?
The Nintendo Revolution finally allows for the ultimate freedom in game design, allowing players to experience the ultimate freedom of a bird or insect. The Dream Revolution game would present a vast, fully realized environment in which the player can take control of a variety of birds and insects to experience the world from a whole new perspective. It would be "Freedom of Flight."
The game would take place literally from a "bird's eye view." By moving the Revolution controller freely through 3D space, the player flies and glides effortlessly through the sky. Raise the controller to climb higher. Point it towards the ground and thrust it forward to make a daring swoop towards the ground. Tilt and turn it for crazy loops or lazy circular glides.
Take control of an eagle, swoop off a mountain, glide down, and snatch your prey. Aim the controller accurately, and turn it back up before your crash! Become a bee and float through a field. Be nice and pollinate flowers, or take a turn towards the picnic tables and chase cowardly people away. Fly a seagull over the ocean, crashing down to catch fish. Control a common housefly for an entirely new, fully free-roaming take on the "miniature character explores a full-sized house" genre. Become a pigeon and tour a bustling city full of skyscrapers (and be sure to press the B trigger to "drop your bombs"
on unsuspecting humans below!).
The game would feature a vast array of animals to control, each with different control physics, special "abilities," and areas to explore. There are dozens of unique animals with different characteristics to incorporate. A large world with different environments to explore allows for potentially hundreds of missions to complete and areas to unlock & explore, and "hidden" animals to find and control. This is the type of game that would appeal to seasoned and "casual" gamers alike - as Nintendo intends to do with games like Nintendogs.
The Revolution controller provides new freedom for game developers to explore control, perspectives, and game design. Freedom of Flight manifests that by allowing us to control the animals with the greatest freedom of movement and exploration: Birds and insects. This type of interactive control and full 3D freedom of movement is not possible on any other system.
The Revolution is Freedom."
And another...
"The year 3115 has come and gone, and with it, human dominance of the world. The human population, just topping 22 billion, had starved, diseased, and bombed themselves to become primitive groups struggling to survive.
This is a time when the oceans are ruled by the dolphins and Africa by lions. North America, however, is ruled by the wolves. This is where your gameplay comes into part, as a wolf (the Lone Wolf), you will attempt to reforest, protect, and survive within the
wooded areas of Northwestern United States, Western Canada, and Southern Alaska.
As the head race of the continent, your job is to not only make sure everything remains peaceful, but control uprising animals and a re-advancing human society at the same time. Your early mission is to get your name known throughout the forest by doing well
for yourself. As a wolf, you want the smaller animals to fear you and the other wolves to see you as a wonderful addition to their pack. You can, at any time, join a pack of wolves that has invited you, and be on your way as the ruler. It starts with the class system, wolves have a form of showing who's the boss depending on how they hold their tail. As you move up the ranks, you'll hold your tail higher and higher until you feel you're ready to challenge your leader.
Challenging and getting challenged sees you and the other wolf in a duel. Heres where some controls will be described, you can lock onto the other wolf (or animal in the case of hunting and population control) by moving a cursor over that particular animal (by
moving the "wand) and pressing and holding the B button. With the analog attachment, you'll be able to walk around an arena of a given size. By tilting the controller on it's left your right side, you'll be able to quickly strafe from side to side. Attacking can be done by different variations of the A button and triggers. pressing the Z1 trigger will make your wolf bark, in order to "psych out" the opponent, pressing A will launch a simple bite, pressing and holding A will charge a jumping bite, while pressing Z2 will allow your wolf to jump back and dodge.
Winning a match with another wolf sees you taking their rank and loosing shows you as a traitor and kicked out of that particular tribe.
The doing-good part is going to be one of the most intersting. For one, you have this entire region (mentioned above) drawn to scale in this game... meaning if there's trouble in Alaska, it'll take you a good couple hours to get there (assuming you want to
be a go-getter or just sit at home and do objectives around your region). . say for example, a beaver population has dramatically reduced the amount of sheltering trees in a region, you and other wolves can go and find a rope/vine, move the cursor on it, and
grab it with B (in your mouth), you can run with it around the tree to tie it up (a small tree of course that must be marked by pressing the 'a' button so that you can easily find it with scent vision [described later on]) and then pull the controller back to tug the tree into it's new home.
Trying to take down an angry bear can see you jump at the neck, and shake the controller wildly as a wolf does when getting hold of an animal's neck, in order to kill the bear. Other objectives could be moving the controller to dam up a river with a boulder, or just
reducing a growing group of elk from a population of 360, to 200. Mating with other wolves sees you create your own pack (if removed from a pack, your offspring
will leave with you) It's also good to know that any animal that gets past the amount of wolves you have in North America (population wise) is considered a threat
and can be "warred" against by taking as many down as possible, which could be a hastle for things like bobcats, mountain lions, and foxes.
Seeing as how dogs in general use scent as a major form of finding things, scent vision (by pressing down on the D-pad) allows you to "see scents". In this case, you look at the environment through an almost thermal vision, animals appear as red outlines, plants
as green, and objects of interest as blue ones. Dogs also have the ability to hear much better, so if you hear a fellow wolf calling for help or another animal, you can press up on the D-pad (almost like visors would be in Metroid Prime) and see where the sound is coming from, as well as recieve an english translation.
Online gaming would see an almost MMORPG experience, with players forming packs (another word for clans in this game) and working together to earn points by doing "deeds" After all, the top pack will control America, and we all want that."
Here's another...
"In recent years Nintendo has broken away from the FPS and created the awesome new genre known as First Person Adventure. A fantastic new way of presenting First Person games. But I don't think anyone had tried a first person shooter with RPG elements. Which is odd because is sounds like something Nintendo would do. I have also noticed that the Revolution controller is ideal for first person gaming. So here is my game, Extermination Inbound, and I hope you like it.
Plot: The year 3000 is near, and the Earth is celebrating it's 500th year of world peace. The peace was achieved only after Earth and her satellite outposts were devastatingly attacked by an alien military group known as the "Infiltrators." Almost all Earthly military strength was extinguished quickly and soon there were only a few offensive options left to the world wide military effort. Finally the war was brought to an end. On the eve of the full scale invasion of Earth, the main alien battle cruiser, codenamed "Spear Head", was attacked and destroyed. A small group of Elite Special Forces were deployed into Spear Head and proceeded to damage the inside of the ship as much as possible, while what was left of Earth's orbital defenses concentrated their fire on the outside of the ship. In the end it was the Elite Special Forces however who saved the day, damaging the shields of Spear Head, allowing the orbital defenses to deal crippling blows onto her, ultimately destroying her. Although losses were great, and included the entire Elite Special Forces group, the Armada, lost and confused, dispersed into space, and did not return... At least, not until now. Bigger and Badder than ever, the Infiltrators returned and have now begun to target Earths Satellite Outposts again. You are a commander of an Elite Special Forces platoon, a new recruit, but the best Earth has to offer.
Your mission: Protect the outposts Gamma and Beta, the outer guardians of Earth itself, and to the best of your ability, using whatever methods necessary, keep the infiltrators from reaching Earth.
Sub Mission: Respond to the calls of other outposts in distress, using teleporting transport, but do not directly engage the enemy until we realize their full destructive potential. Also, should defense of Gamma and Beta prove impossible, do try and survive, to fight another day. The Earth has enough dead fools who tried to be heroes, just get the heck out of there soldier if the Infiltrators take out your defenses. (And see if you can keep the other members of your platoon alive, at least for as long as possible.)
Gameplay: the Game will be, at its most basic, a FPS. But, RPG elements will be included. You will have to gain experience points to move on to new areas, get new missions, see future story content, and receive new and better weapons, etc. Your Platoon experience is important here too, your platoon must survive. They will travel with you until you give them orders to separate and do other things. The platoon also will protect you from the incredibly smart and deadly infiltrators, which get more and more menacing as the game continues. The platoon will also be intelligent, and will do things like take cover and clear rooms on their own. I will explain more about this in the next section. The levels, I should also say, will be very interactive. As lush and intricate as anything seen before, offering places for you to take cover as well as explore. They include natural places like Earth's lush forests, and man made areas like the crippled remains of a space station. The more you explore the more items and documents found, giving more to the story line, as well as other intriguing surprises for the individual player. It will also mean that enemy groups could be anywhere, hopefully offering some real tension to the player, should he/she be ambushed all of a sudden.
Main Character: As in many other RPG's, the player can chose the sex, height, hair color, skin color, eye color etc. of their own individual character, giving the game a more personalized feeling. You can name your character whatever you want; make him look like whatever you want, whatever color you want. Then you can also customize your platoon. Their motto, nick name, symbol, color, armor, main weapon etc. It will be very open to the individual player and the outcame will completely depend on what the player wants.
Revolutionary usage of the Revolutionary controller: Using the motion sensitive right hand controller, you can move your character's weapon right, left, up down, like the mouse on a computer FPS. The D-Pad will be used to command your platoon, the game will make it so you don't have to order everything, or anything for that matter. You could do things one order at a time, or order multiple groups to do different things, just by selecting a group with the pointer, and giving him an order by pressing one of the four directions on the D-Pad. But, I suggest you do as much as you possibly, and safely, can. Because the more you do the more experience points you get, at the same time, you gotta keep as many soldiers alive as possible. You can also tell your platoon to do stuff while you go it alone, but that ups the difficulty without a squad there to give you effective cover. To up your platoon's experience and improve their chances of survival you can also train in VR missions between actual missions. (You can only do it once though, and it may make the next mission harder by waiting and training for a while) Also, using Nintendo Revolution's Wi-Fi connection, Nintendo should easily be able to set up massive multiplayer battles, put together platoons made up of real players. They could have massive tournaments between platoons. You could have a main lobby to set up small death matches, CTF, etc. The online possibilities are endless.
Controls: The analog stick will move your guy forward and back, and strafe right and left. The two trigger buttons on the analog stick will be fire and alternate fire, for every one of the cool futuristic weapons. The other trigger button on yout right hand controller will change your weapons, you can carry up to 4, depending on the size of the weapon. Press the A button to jump over small obstacles. If you need to get THROUGH some of the objects you can always press the little a button to lob grenades (You can carry up to 10 grenades.) and the little b button will be reload if you wish to reload between firefights, otherwise the weapons reload automatically when you empty a clip. When you run out of ammo you can either find more or drop the weapon if ammo is scarce and pick up another weapon, including weapons from dead Infiltrators.
Weapons Include:
Human:
Assault rifle w/ grenade launcher, switched using the alternate fire trigger, and normal fire trigger. Replenish-able ammo, medium power rifle with a powerful grenade launcher underneath. (rifle fires with 50 round clips, armor piercing ammo, can carry 600 bullets maximum, grenades can only be fired one at a time, and maximum of 20 can be carried)
Sniper Rifle, w/ Infra red and thermal scopes , switched using the alternate fire trigger and regular fire trigger, powerful, replenishable ammo, a little heavier and less powerful than the Infiltrator version. (5 shot clips, can carry 50 rounds maximum)
Rocket Launcher w/ scope, switch between with and without scope using alternate fire trigger and regular fire trigger, most powerful single shot weapon of the game, slow reload tho, replenishable ammo, smaller than the Infiltrator's Lazer Cannon (1 shot canister at a time used, 5 shot canisters can be carried maximum.)
Shotgun , no alternate fire, accurate only at close range, but with a high rate of deadly fire, replenish-able ammo (has to reload every 10 shots, can carry 50 shots maximum.)
Pistol, press alternate fire trigger to use multi round bursts. very acurate with medium power, replenish-able ammo, ( 10 shot clips, 100 shots can be carried.)
Standard issue laser knife, no Alternate fire, fast, small, (lasts 3 minutes, out of its recharger sheath, takes 1 minute to fully charge.)
Infiltrator:
Twin lazer beam swords , light, fast, and deadly, limited energy, switch between one and two weapons using the Alternate fire trigger and normal fire trigger.( 1 lasts 5 minutes, 2 lasts less than 2.5 minutes, one hit kills.)
Lazer Staff/Spear, no alternate fire. very slow but last longer. (lasts 8 minutes, one hit kills)
Rocket Pistol , powerful laser guided regular fire shot, cluster shot using the alternate fire trigger, rocket ammo can be found, a little innacurate (10 round clips, 100 regular shots can be carried, 20 burst shots maximum)
Lazer Cannon, limited energy, powerful single regular shot blast, use alternate fire trigger to use the more powerful charged shot. (50 regular shots, 25 charged shots. maximum)
Armor Piercing Sniper Lazer , no alternate fire. More powerful and a little lighter than human version, but with limited and unrechargable ammo, (100 shots maximum.)"
I've got loads more, but here are a random three that I picked out.
Post by: trip1eX on March 14, 2006, 04:33:15 PM
I totally get tired of all the sword swinging examples too. Those ideas are from folks who just see the totally obvious and don't really see the subtle benefits like the controller erasing the learning curve of today's more complicated controllers.
And of course Ian hates the article because it suggests Nintendo is coming out with something kewl.
Post by: nemo_83 on March 14, 2006, 04:34:19 PM
Post by: Zach on March 14, 2006, 04:38:38 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Why wouldn't gyros in a Cube controller provide me with that same subtlety?
The cube controller would not work as well, why? because it uses both hands. The thing about the remote shaped controller is that you only need one hand, this helps because (other than the jokes that have been floating around) some games may call for fluid control at points. With the one handed controller, it is much easier to move the controller about, with better flow, and more range, than the two handed control.
The rev controller is all about giving the player as much control as possible, a two handed controller would restict that.
Post by: eljefe on March 14, 2006, 04:55:25 PM
Thank you Viewtiful, would it trouble you to post more of those? They're really quite fantastic.
I definately would buy the 2nd game: very original, and very well thought out. I think many more games this gen will expand on scope as an artistic method (ala SPORE, others) to extend replay value.
Even after you really get into the wolves portion, there are still the other continents to master w/ lions and other animals, as well as the seas w/ dolphins and such.
That was actually so well written, it read more like a hands-on preview than a fan-made concept for a dream game contest!
Here's hoping devs are willing to flex their creative muscle like that AND are able to get games like that published.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 14, 2006, 05:03:16 PM
This guy saying, "Bah, it won't do anything!" is a crock: wait until the E3 curtain raises before we start making baseless claims like that.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 14, 2006, 05:36:57 PM
Wrong. Most of the people throwing out suggestions don't know sh!t about making games. Just because sword fighting is obvious doesn't mean it's the only idea. It's just the best idea those idiots can think of.
A flaw in the reasoning is people trying to think of something that relies on the controller, rather than thinking of how the controller can expand what games are today. This is a step closer to full-body immersion in a game, and I can't believe that you're so close-minded about it. In twenty years, when games are fully immersive (and they will be, if not sooner), I'll be enjoying that. You can keep pushing on your convenient f*cking buttons if you want to.
That said, this is a good article, and I agree with it on several points. I really am starved for Rev info.
Post by: eljefe on March 14, 2006, 06:23:58 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Imagine pressing 'up' on the D-pad makes your character walk upward. Now imagine if pressing 'up' and tilting the controller forward makes your character run. Tilting the controller back and pressing 'up' will make your character tiptoe. If your character is running, and you bank the controller left, your character will feign to the left, while still going as full-tilt as he can, forward. And you do this all without pressing more than a single button."
This doesn't sound too different than what I can do in Super Mario 64 with the analog stick. It's a little different since you can push forward and rotate at the same time but it's not much. The punch example isn't that exceptional either. I can do three punches by pushing A, forward and A, back and A. I do agree that there is a level of subtlety that can be added but it's so subtle that I question if it's really that significant.
Plus there's the idea that everything after the NES in controller design is just fluff and we never really needed any of that. That's a load of crap. Brilliant games like Super Mario 64 have been created as a result of an addition to the standard controller. Without those additions those games wouldn't exist. That makes those additions important. Plus I fail to see how removing these elements is necessary to have that subtlety. If I want to do any of those examples listed why do I have to have a remote with only a d-pad and two buttons? Why wouldn't gyros in a Cube controller provide me with that same subtlety?
Its good that you mentioned SM64, the changes it brought about are analogous to what we're seeing right now.
Nintendo is telling us (consumers and developers) that we need something new and exciting: essentially they’re saying we’re bored. Whether that’s 100% rhetoric, or partly based on fact but exaggerated to validate their new business plan is (to a degree) irrelevant.
When Nintendo and others were making the transition from 2D-to-3D you could have made a case for either side. That is, you could have said 2D games were fine the way they were, and that people (gamers and devs) weren’t suffering. People were still buying games. The industry was booming. Why change the formula?
We know what history shows regarding the fate of 2D games. They are becoming ‘fewer and farther between’ as each year passes. Does that mean 3D games are categorically better than their 2D counterparts? Anyone with reasonable knowledge of games would answer, “No.”
But, who of those same people, after playing SM64 wasn’t excited (or at least amused) by the subtlety of the controls?
Tip-toeing?
Long-jumping? (olympic stylee)
CRAWLING?!!
The LEVEL of the controls was part and parcel to the entertainment (and functionality) of the game. Who in there right mind didn’t enjoy that newfound freedom?
By making the analog control stick a STANDARD part of the controller Nintendo made sure that that freedom did not remain ‘newfound’ for very long. Their decision gave devs the confidence to code for it and refine the SENSITIVITY of the stick, adding it to various functions of their games. Heck, it even inspired copycats (which expanded the standard userbase of the ‘new’ device and its implementation).
All of that is relative, though. The new control scheme, and the games that went along with it did not overshadow our love for SMB and it (admittedly) primitive controls. Really, ‘primitive’ is too harsh a word for the old NES dpad. Just as ‘unnecessary’ is too harsh a critique of the N64 control stick.
They
Are
Simply
Different.
But essentially if you strip it down they (2D/3D) produced the same results: a handful of absolute gem games. Face it. Most games range from sucky-to-average. We only WANT the exceptional standouts (as do the devs and publishing houses). In my opinion, and according to past evidence..
It simply isn’t possible to only make gems. In any art form. Using any medium or set of tools.
Nor does new technology make old technology obsolete. At least when it comes to art. A proper artist can make use of the old tech for SOMETHING.
Sooo..this generation…
Nintendo cannot prevent bad games from being made. Period. They cannot shy away from making the remote the standard for the future of gaming. It will not completely displace the current way we play games. Nintendo will not sacrifice the effectiveness new way of playing in favor of the old. Some people were upset about the size, shape, and placement of the d-pad when the switch was made to 3D. Ian I think that type of thing is your biggest gripe: the seemingly uncaring out-with-the-old attitude from manufacturers.
I repeat: Nintendo cannot prevent bad games from being made. It is a glaring mistake to blame the new tech with ‘causing’ bad games to be made.
People should appreciate the potential of a new way of doing things as well as the continued value of the previous system.
That is unless the new tech has slightly diminished the redeeming value of the old by replicating its abilities while providing new ones.
That is exactly what the remote promises to do. Since none of us has used it, though, we cannot compare it with the current to see if it CAN replicate the current schemes (without the shell, that’s not standard.)
However, all of us have used the technology that replaced the d-pad/2D as the dominant control method and software UI.
Of course, for certain genres (fighting, 2D side-scrolling adventures, et cetera) the analog control stick can’t quite compare. For other genres, it merely met the functional needs suitably (re: as good as the d-pad). Some genres were actually better controlled by the addition of analog subtlety.
Still other genres WERE CREATED because of the new analog/3D scheme of gaming.
Expect similar things this generation on the revolution.
Ian, I have two specific questions for you:
Do you think the subtlety of control possible on SM64 would have been possible with JUST a d-pad?
What are some situations possible with the analog stick in SM64 that are impossible with JUST the remote for the rev?
Post by: eljefe on March 14, 2006, 06:56:29 PM
Regarding the prevalence of obvious uses of the remote that are frequently thrown around, (swordplay, gunplay, I’m looking at you..) the explanation is quite simple.
The obvious uses are just what we can grasp right now since this concept is so new. In fact, many of the launch and first-year titles will actually use these obvious (sometimes unoriginal) means of implementing the new controls. Fear not, the games will still excite.
Think of SM64 again. Using an analog control stick for walking? Boring and unoriginal. Or was it?
Same goes for grabbing and spinning something. 10 years ago if someone had suggested that Nintendo’s new 64-bit system would have this thing that would let you grab a discus and throw it…IN GAME… people would have laughed it off the face of the earth. But, didn’t we enjoy grabbing Bowser by the tail and spin-throwing him?
And that was the first game to really attempt 3D as a standard. It was enjoyable, excellent even, but we had to wait a little to see really shocking-brandnew-undoable-with-any-other-scheme type stuff implemented intuitively into games.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 14, 2006, 07:35:36 PM
No.
"What are some situations possible with the analog stick in SM64 that are impossible with JUST the remote for the rev?"
Super Mario 64 is unplayable on the remote just due to a lack of buttons. You could probably assign the camera controls to the d-pad but the game still needs three action buttons to replace A, B, and Z. So right there you're compromising things. The big disadvantage with motion control over an analog stick is that there's no "rest" position. The analog stick has a clear stop position and it automatically centers. When you're moving something in midair what's considered the rest position? In Super Mario 64 if I want to run forward I move my thumb forward until I push the stick as far as it will go. At that point I stop moving my thumb. I just hold it still and the stick is stuck going forward until I release it when I want Mario to stop. How do I move with a remote? Do I just keep moving my arm forward? If I stop then how would the game know if I want to stop or just continue moving in the direction I started? Maybe you tilt the controller forward and then when you want to stop you bring it level. That's better but it's doesn't automatically center. You might overcompensate and move backwards. The ability to snap back into a rest position is a huge advantage for movement that the d-pad and analog stick have but motion control doesn't. This is why the N64 controller is great and the Atari 5200 controller is useless.
But the ultimate issue is that many of my favourite N64 games and favourite Cube games and even favourite SNES games don't translate seemlessly to the Rev controller. That's limiting. Every NES game would be perfectly playable on the SNES controller and every NES and SNES game would be playable on the N64 controller. The only Nintendo controller to break this convention is the Gamecube and that's the first Nintendo console I've ever used where certain routine games played poorly because of the controller design. It's not a coincedence that when Nintendo decided to remove standard functionality controller issues started to come up. They decided we didn't need a useable d-pad or digital triggers or a symetrical face button arrangement and issues resulted from them removing standard conventions that they themselves invented.
Motion control is a great idea. But it is incredibly short-sighted to assume that it will be so useful and amazing that we can just reject proven controller concepts.
Those ideas posted by Karl are pretty creative and pretty cool. I especially like the flying one. Okay I have now heard some pretty damn good ideas for how to use the remote. None of them convince me removing existing functionality is a good idea though. But in order to convince me of that there would need to be ideas of how existing genres, that aren't already mouse based "PC genres", would benefit and turn out better because of the remote. That's what's needed for the remote to be a replacement as opposed to just a great idea. The analog stick was amazing but it wasn't a replacement for what's already there.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 14, 2006, 08:00:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane Super Mario 64 is unplayable on the remote just due to a lack of buttons.
Considering that you have not seen a finalized Revolution controller, I fail to see how you can make this argument.
Even the DS changed from the time it was shown at E3 to later in the year.
When the Revmote ships, then we can consider the button and joystick count to be finalized.
As for the argument about the games, there's already a product which underwent the exact trials and tribulations that the Rev will go through: the DS!
The DS spent about a year with no games which took solid advantage of its features, but still had plenty of good games which worked under the old style of controlling a console: Phoenix Wright, Mario 64, Castlevania, Advance Wars, etc.
Once developers figured it out, they started doing bigger and greater things with the console, and now games like Trauma Center, Kirby, Lost Magic, Electroplankton, Nintendogs, Brain Games, etc. are out or on the way and these couldn't exist WITHOUT the stylus.
I expect Nintendo is pouring a great deal more effort into the Rev than they did the DS because the DS didn't have any real competition, which means that they're the ones who are going to come out of the gate using the controller in ways which will make gaming more fun.
But even without all these new and bizarre concepts, what's wrong with using the controller to AIM a projectile weapon? What's wrong with using it to swing a golf club or a baseball bat? What's wrong with using it to slash with a sword? God forbid, those ideas are simple but they sound FUN!
Console FPSs have always SUCKED because aiming is clumsy and inaccurate. Baseball games where I press A to swing the bat. It's timing. Yawn. What if the angle, velocity, momentum, etc. of my swing all played a role in how hard I hit that ball instead of just how well I aimed up or down and timed the A button press?
And for the record, people ARE bored with gaming. Game sales are down 13% from what they were last year but were only brought back up by the DS and the DS alone.
The only innovative console on the market right now is also selling like it's a "get out of hell free" card. I think that should be noted.
Post by: RiskyChris on March 14, 2006, 08:00:13 PM
Bubble.
Post by: MysticGohan on March 14, 2006, 09:27:20 PM
Post by: MaryJane on March 15, 2006, 01:39:07 AM
I'd pay money for all of those games, although I'd wait for the pgc review of the fps/rpg.
I think Ian has had his heart broken in the past and is now afraid of falling in love with anything that might once again break his frail heart. He puts up a defense of pre-disappointment so that he won't allow the beauty of a thing to affect him before it is too late, and he loves it for what is it. Innovation at it's highest, at this point in the video game world.
(everything before innovation is from some movie I saw, I've been trying to remember the name but can't)
Post by: Ian Sane on March 15, 2006, 06:42:03 AM
Personally I find console FPSs only suck when they're designed to require mouse aiming. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were designed to be played by a controller and thus play fantastic. If aiming is clumsy and inaccurate a good developer will then design a game that doesn't require you to aim precisely. The remote will work well for aiming though.
"The best part of all your posts Ian is the relentless bemoaning of 'missing features' that are completely and irrevocably satisfied by the shell and/or nunchaku attachment."
Nintendo hasn't annouced if these are included with every console yet and they need to be or they won't be widely supported. And we haven't even seen the shell. Nintendo's interpretation of a traditional shell and our interpretation might be completely different.
"Considering that you have not seen a finalized Revolution controller, I fail to see how you can make this argument. Even the DS changed from the time it was shown at E3 to later in the year. When the Revmote ships, then we can consider the button and joystick count to be finalized."
I don't remember exactly but I thought the DS changes were purely cosmetic. Maybe Nintendo will add stuff but when Nintendo shows us something and says "this is our controller" I think it's fair to make assumptions on what they've shown. I would be very surprised if Nintendo added more buttons since they think that non-gamers are intimidated by too many buttons.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 15, 2006, 06:52:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Personally I find console FPSs only suck when they're designed to require mouse aiming. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark were designed to be played by a controller and thus play fantastic. If aiming is clumsy and inaccurate a good developer will then design a game that doesn't require you to aim precisely. The remote will work well for aiming though.
This is why MP chose the lock-on system (one of the reasons, anyway).
With the Rev, pointing Samus' gun at an enemy will be as easy as simply pointing at the enemy. It doesn't get any better than that.
Quote
I don't remember exactly but I thought the DS changes were purely cosmetic. Maybe Nintendo will add stuff but when Nintendo shows us something and says "this is our controller" I think it's fair to make assumptions on what they've shown. I would be very surprised if Nintendo added more buttons since they think that non-gamers are intimidated by too many buttons.
Don't forget that backwards compatibility has already been promised, and I'd wager that it will work with or without the shell. Nintendo HAS to have enough buttons for the game because the Rev can allegedly play cube games "right out of the box".
Post by: RiskyChris on March 15, 2006, 06:57:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo hasn't annouced if these are included with every console yet and they need to be or they won't be widely supported. And we haven't even seen the shell. Nintendo's interpretation of a traditional shell and our interpretation might be completely different.
I just got done watching Iwata's TGS speech. I believe when he is showing the nunchaku + revmote, he mentions it being part of the basic revolution package. Whether he is exclusively referring to the remote is up in the air, but for Nintendo not to release these things standard... well, that'd just be a catastrophe.
Post by: BigJim on March 15, 2006, 07:08:14 AM
They're talking about the shell attachment... In a G4 interview after the TGS speech, Iwata said it was "undecided" whether the shell would be included or not.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 15, 2006, 07:08:19 AM
If not, they alienate so many developers who will know that gamers will have to have bought additional hardware to use their games.
This is also the reason why the Rev should be the shoe-in console for EVERY lightgun game created: because every Revmote doubles as a lightgun.
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on March 15, 2006, 07:19:06 AM
Here's "Handy Man:"
"Story:
Privileged information is not the key to happiness, but it does make life seem a little more like a dream. In my career, I've learned to find peace in the fact that someday I will wake up and it will all be over. But each day brings me closer to the day I will break. The day
I accept that what I do has meaning. That the things I've seen have also seen me. I don't want to know why you are asking me these questions, but please let my family know that I am alright.
I guess the beginning you seek is the same one I do. I really don't know what happened, but I can tell you what I remember. I was called in to repair a hole in a wall. Seems that there was a little domestic disturbance, but that's none of my business. Anyway, when I got there, everything was pale and my feet had trouble finding the floor. I'd been doing that work for so long that I just started fixing the wall by instinct. I didn't even pay attention to the thing that bit me in there. The wall was fixed and a fee paid for my services. It was a very generous fee.
I awoke to find my hand black and the skin peeling off. My wife freaked out and took me to the emergency room. They didn't know what it was, but had seen it before. They had to remove the hand to keep it from spreading. In my line of work, that's a ticket straight to homelessness, but I just complied and told my wife that we'd find a way.
I grew back my hand over the next few days. It was hard to see at first with all of the bandages, but I felt it growing even before the old one was gone. The new hand worked better than the old one. So well that I forgot to even question how it existed. Big mistake.
A few months later, I got a call from the government. That's you, right? What is it that you want? I mean, you've told me that you want me to make some repairs, but it can't be that simple. Can I call my family?
[It isn't that simple, of course. As the game progresses, the "government" sends our handy man on repair jobs involving paranormal phenomena. As he becomes less willing to take on the dangerous and unseemly jobs, they reveal more and more of how he attained his gifts and teach him more ways to hone them. They also tell his wife, who pushes him to continue. She wants to know who he is more than he does. She's afraid that he isn't the man she married.]
Gameplay:
The hand can change forms to become different tools. For example, the hand can become a hook if the player swings the controller out, and then pulls it up quickly in a curling motion. The trigger can be pressed to shoot it out like a hookshot and latch onto things. Or, the player can use it to hold onto a ceiling beam and slide across to another area. Another hand shape could be a hammer. If the player swings it at the floor, he can kill the odd insects that are around a drainpipe. By pushing the trigger, he can make it inflate and use it to knock out walls or break down doors. Of course, there is also the flashlight hand. It emits a strange glow that illuminates dark basements. The special function is a flash of light that makes certain creatures visible for a few moments or scares away others. Some of the hands are not so obvious. The player would have to think carefully before understanding what they do. For example, one hand may look like an old fashioned fluted speaker. Upon shaking it in a certain pattern, the controller may shake (rumble) back in a different pattern. By playing with this for a while, a language can be learned to communicate with a creature that can help the player solve a puzzle.
The emphasis of the gameplay is on finding ways to do repairs rather than staying alive. While there are some dangers, they are mainly an aid to the atmosphere or part of puzzles rather than a focus of the game. The player may choose to do a botchy job of certain tasks on purpose. This can be a means of leverage for the player to find out more information (hand forms or story advancement) faster or to keep some of the supplies to use in other repairs. The wife is also an issue, as she pushes the player to do certain things that are not totally necessary. This can lead to alternate endings, including keeping or losing his family at the end. Losing the wife also means losing some nice tools as the game progresses, but it is mainly an emotional loss."
And another one, with a similar flight-based concept to the other one that I posted:
"My Revolution game would be an action-adventure title revolving around physically and graphically realistic exploration and combat in an enormous sky-based world through flight. The human protagonists of the game would progress through the adventure employing various highly customizable fantastic flying creatures -- say, a dragon, a giant eagle, a winged horse, and a number of others that could be bought or earned -- all with different strengths, weaknesses and abilities. Progressively more impressive rides would become available as the game bears on, affording more powers, speed, and the like with each more powerful ride. In the meantime, the player could improve their ride by winning battles, feeding it and taking good care of it (it would be a living creature after all!), decking it out with armor, finding/winning items would provide statistical boosts to offensive/defensive power, and using other items to customize its appearance and abilities. As the player explores their vast aerial world, they will encounter treasures to collect, puzzles to be solved, and enemies to defeat in real-time. Some of the game action could take place on floating islands, giving the protagonist a chance to dismount and explore the world separate from their mount, but the majority of the action would occur mid-air.
Now, the part where the Rev controller comes in. This game would require the player to use the remote and the analog "nunchuck" attachment in tandem. The analog thumbstick of the nunchuck would be used to control direction in flight and the big sexy A button would be pressed to move forwards in the air, while the Direct Pointing Device of the remote would essentially represent the "eyes" of the creature presently being used. Whichever way the remote is turned, that's which way your mount will look (although you, the player, will continue looking ahead). So, how will this be used? Let's say your 3-dimensional, globe-like radar is detecting enemies approaching from behind at various angles. While using the thumbstick to fly in the opposite direction, physically turn the remote back towards you and press the remote's trigger to fire an attack (or combine this with quick taps or charge-ups of the trigger on the nunchuck for other special attacks). This way, your continual forward motion and the attack radius of your animal would be completely independent, and yet completely under your precise control at all times.
Imagine dodging away from an approaching enemy, then seamlessly aiming back towards it with the remote to return fire... or navigating through a fully 3-D maze with the thumbstick within a time limit, shooting objects to complete a puzzle or take out baddies as you simultaneously race to the finish. Also, to avoid getting disoriented, in addition to a 3-D radar, part of the screen would always show the world through the eyes of the creature you are riding. Then the player would be able to accurately track their enemies and targets on all fronts and capitalize upon the precision of the Direct Pointing Device. In addition, players would be given the option to view the action in 1st person or 3rd person view (in reference to the human protagonist) at any point throughout the game. There could also be epic battles where the player leads a group of other airborne NPCs in a team to confront enemy troops.
Finally, this game would feature a comprehensive multiplayer battle mode. With up to four players each controlling their own custom ride (which would be imported in via a memory card attachment for the remote, much in the same way that players could import custom data for Perfect Dark with the N64 controllers), the battles that ensued would be a true test of the players' skill in flight and creating/honing the best "battle" ride. Furthermore, the game would allow the player to own and use at least one of every type of creature currently available (depending on how far they have progressed through the game). These would all be available for selection in battle mode as well, allowing each player a large assortment of rides to choose from and ensuring that the time and attention they've put into each one in the main game wouldn't go to waste. By pitting different creatures with different strengths and weaknesses against each other, this mode would offer immense replay value and plenty of hectic unpredictable multiplayer frenzy.
Overall, I believe the unique depth-perceiving properties of the Revolution controller would enable airborne dogfights and precision shooting the likes of which we've never seen before, and a game taking place in the air could perfectly demonstrate the potential of the controller. Personally, I would love to see an action-adventure styled game which capitalized upon these intriguing features."
And here's one more:
"Name: Providence
Type: God / RTS
Backdrop:
There are two factions of humanoids on a tiny planetoid. Both are looking for resources to advance their society. Being simple folk, they need guidance and inspiration to meet their goals. Various environments on the globe provide the resources they are seeking.
Goal: Prevent the opposition from gaining their resources while collecting your own.
Gameplay:
Choose a 'team', the CPU (or online competitor) with have the other. The game starts on a simple grass field with a simple goal: the little guys need food. The 'people' will chase various wildlife around the field for a limited time. Use the wand to deform the landscape. Build up mountains, build down valleys, anything to help trap the wildlife so the characters can move in for the kill. Anything that kills the wildlife before the characters do will not count. Affect your opponents structures to kill the trapped animals, or change the landscape to affect how the opponent's characters reach the animals.
Other landscapes: ocean, jungle, desert, ice and snow. Each landscape has particular goals and resources that need to be found. As resources are found and society advances, previous landscapes can be revisited for different resources that were not usable without the new skill sets.
How It Works:
Use the wand to draw a selection box on the landscape, holding the 'A' button while the box is dragged out. Release the 'A' and pull the trigger to affect the selection. Push toward the screen to push the ground in, pull away to pull up. The resulting animation should reflect the action in real-time. Want an avalanche? Pull away then twist the wrist in the direction you want the rocks to fall. While it is intuitive for left/right action, turning the wand to face away from the screen and then twisting will result in rocks falling in any direction you choose. On the ocean, pull up a wall of water and send it crashing down (or watch it fall back into the ocean affecting everyone around it). The jungle will grow or die with the same movements, cause a giant tree to topple. Each landscape will have its own particular hazards for players to explore. The limits for how much can be pushed in or out will be reached when lava appears. A volcano will happen, but the lava will burn it to the ground. And lava will fill a hole. Other limits include water tension and how tall a tree can get before it falls under its own weight.
Watch out for your actions, for the characters have a mood meter. If they know they are being helped, they become enthusiastic. If they notice things going wrong, they'll become lethargic. Just think about the jungle, too much and they get frustrated by not being able to move forward, kill off too much and they get sad for the loss of habitat.
The d-pad on the wand can give simple commands (inspiration) to the characters on screen, a general direction to move, or group together, fan out, based on the level and goal. Rapid presses of the d-pad can help the mood (when the time is right).
If there ends up a microphone with the wand (not separate) blow to bring the speed of the wind up. When a certain speed is reached, draw a circle with the wand and if its good enough, a tornado is formed. Select the tornado to drag it across the screen for a small period of time. A limited number of tornadoes can be used. Sand storms on the desert, water spouts on the ocean.
The optional thumb stick will control the camera, turning left and right, up and down, zoom in, zoom out.
Break up the gameplay:
Occasional mini-game of smacking meteors out of the atmosphere. One will throw, one will hit. Target area provides something to aim for while limiting where the meteors can be thrown. Positions will switch so each will have a chance to play both sides. Action is wand based. There are no points, only whether or not the meteor hits the target area, though trophies can be awarded for great throws and hits. Throw your arm like throwing a baseball, adding a twist at the end to spin it if so desired. Alternate method so people won't feel like chumps swinging their arm around: setup like a pinball. A meter on the screen indicates when to press the button. The same will hold true for the batter. Either swing like a bat or rely on a meter based system. The drawback is you lose the control on how the swing is made.
Replay Value:
Play at home for practice against online players, as well as viewing an unfolding story of how the society is progressing. Mood from game play affects the story, and any tension in the story is apparent on the game field (characters occasionally stopping to beat each other or whatever else might arise). Choose to play a particular landscape for practice or go for story mode.
Online competition, choose a limited number of landscapes to compete on, or engage in a full out world domination. The online play will keep opponents on equal levels and track who you've played against so play can pause and be restarted later.
Pros:
Takes advantage of the features of the controller
Puts you in control of a world and its landscapes
Online play
Cons:
Learning curve of controls
Some people may feel uncomfortable swinging the controller around like a bat
Only 2 player (but try to imagine all the madness with more players) "
Again, if you guys want more, just ask.
Post by: MaryJane on March 15, 2006, 01:18:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
They HAVE to release them along with it.
If not, they alienate so many developers who will know that gamers will have to have bought additional hardware to use their games.
This is also the reason why the Rev should be the shoe-in console for EVERY lightgun game created: because every Revmote doubles as a lightgun.
They don't have to include it. IMO including the shell controller is saying the revmote was a half-assed idea. For all game genre I think the revmote + nunchuck will work. combined they have 6 buttons, one less than a GC controller and 2 less than the competition, not a big deal i think. The shell will be for those games that are released on all consoles, which from the looks of things won't be too many this generation. at e3 last year it was mentioned numerous times by the press how big exclusivety was going to be next-gen. I believe it, and don't care about the shelll too much. It takes away a lot from the revmote, and I don't believe it too be essential, only occasionally used, otherwise, like i said it says the revmote is just a sparkling innovation.
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 15, 2006, 01:25:50 PM
On one hand, I agree with what you're saying.
On the other, I feel it'd kinda be like releasing a DS with buttons and D-pad sold separately.
Know what I mean?
Post by: MaryJane on March 15, 2006, 03:35:04 PM
Post by: mantidor on March 15, 2006, 03:44:34 PM
Post by: Smash_Brother on March 15, 2006, 03:46:56 PM
I guess the DS is, again, the best argument here: it has all the same buttons the GBA had (more even) but the touchscreen and microphone were not ignored. They started as simple ideas but eventually came to be used a great deal in gameplay to the point where the games couldn't exist without them.
That considered, I'd say bundle the shell (unless the Revmote gets more buttons) and let 3rd parties learn at their own pace. I largely suspect games like SSB:Rev will still play with the standard control layout, leaving other games sell the Rev concept. Ideally, Nintendo wants enough of the old style to not make it look like they're abandoning the old control styles (another of Ian's fears).
Post by: trip1eX on March 15, 2006, 05:31:18 PM
PLus when you use the stylus on the DS you give up control over 5 buttons. With the Rev you'll have alot more functionality still because your 'stylus' will have buttons on it and be able to tilt and turn and spin and zoom in and out.
Post by: IceCold on March 15, 2006, 05:35:47 PM
Post by: Rancid Planet on March 15, 2006, 08:53:33 PM
(Goes back to pretend lightsabre fighting with a mop handle while wearing his bedsheet as a Jedi robe)
Post by: wandering on March 15, 2006, 09:40:42 PM
One thing, though: I don't think the controller will be very good for movement. Why would Nintendo make an analogue attachment if it was? And I don't see his problem with using the revmote as a sword: sure it's obvious, but I think that's the kind of thing this controller is best suited for. Direct control of actions instead of indirect control, I mean. He can have his subtlety all he wants, I want to be able to wield swords and splash water and ring bells with the rev.
Quote
"The best part of all your posts Ian is the relentless bemoaning of 'missing features' that are completely and irrevocably satisfied by the shell and/or nunchaku attachment."
Nintendo hasn't annouced if these are included with every console yet and they need to be or they won't be widely supported. And we haven't even seen the shell. Nintendo's interpretation of a traditional shell and our interpretation might be completely different.
You're a real "glass is half empty" kind of guy, you know.
...actually, you're a real "Yes, the glass looks half-empty, but is it really? The water could just be painted on the glass. Okay, it probably isn't, but still. How do I know the water isn't salt water? What if the water is completley undrinkable and unable to quinch my thirst? We don't know whether it is even capable of quenching our thirst because none of us have even tasted it yet!" kind of guy.
Post by: MaryJane on March 16, 2006, 03:35:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: wandering
One thing, though: I don't think the controller will be very good for movement. Why would Nintendo make an analogue attachment if it was?
I believe it's because that only proprietary games will use only the remote. For current genre's you need dual analog control, more buttons, and more control options. Also, going back to just how need the shell really is, a really good developer (hopefully nintendo does this first and does it well so that other follow) would use only the nunchuck and motion sensing for movement, and have the d-pad for four extra buttons, now, with those buttons, the a and trigger on the remote, and the two z buttons on the nunchuck you have 8 buttons. sounds good enough for me. If anything I believe that the console itself might come with the shell, but we'll probably see different bundlings of controllers. 1. just the revmote 2. revmote+nunchuck 3. revmote+shell 4. nunchuck+shell 5. revmote+nunchuck+shell 6-1,000 would be different combos of the aforementioned add-ons and new attachment for other games. Which is what I personally love about the Rev, the massive number of options. And don't start bitching about price, cuz with the money you save buying a rev to an xbox360 or a ps3 you could afford many many many controllers.
More game ideas please, those were good, not as good as the first ones imo, but good.
Post by: eljefe on March 16, 2006, 03:55:18 AM
Quotevery true
Originally posted by: trip1eX
...When you use the stylus on the DS you give up control over 5 buttons. With the Rev you'll have alot more functionality still because your 'stylus' will have buttons on it and be able to tilt and turn and spin and zoom in and out.
Quoteno offense Ian, but he's really spot on..
Originally posted by: wandering
You're a real "glass is half empty" kind of guy, you know.
...actually, you're a real "Yes, the glass looks half-empty, but is it really? The water could just be painted on the glass. Okay, it probably isn't, but still. How do I know the water isn't salt water? What if the water is completley undrinkable and unable to quinch my thirst? We don't know whether it is even capable of quenching our thirst because none of us have even tasted it yet!" kind of guy.
Post by: SixthAngel on March 16, 2006, 05:08:52 AM
Post by: RiskyChris on March 16, 2006, 05:47:51 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 16, 2006, 06:34:28 AM
Post by: Pittbboi on March 16, 2006, 06:36:56 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on March 16, 2006, 07:41:54 AM
This makes sense but I don't think there's a way around it. To me including the shell with every controller says that Nintendo is being flexible and allowing developers to do whatever they want. Flexibility is probably the most important thing to offer a game developer (aside from the potential to make good money of course).
Normally I wouldn't think it would give anyone the message that remote is g!mmick but Nintendo flapped their gums about it being this new standard and all this stuff that honestly would probably make them look like totally idiots if they backpeddled and said "oops I guess we need to have those old doodads there after all." There is a way they could save face by suggesting they did it because at the request of third parties. It's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't situation." I think it's more important that they have a flexible controller though. No one will think the remote is a g!mmick if they have an amazing game that really sells the remote's features. They're probably only screwed if the remote really IS a g!mmick. If it truly is as amazing as they say it is they'll be fine.
Post by: MaryJane on March 16, 2006, 07:58:06 AM
Post by: SixthAngel on March 16, 2006, 01:51:02 PM
Post by: jasonditz on March 16, 2006, 02:31:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: SixthAngel
The remote and analog combo has a lot of buttons. I here a lot of people say it won't work with some games but no one ever mentions the games. I can only think of fighters that have four attack buttons (Soul Calibur). Can someone give me any other example ?
Sports games, adventure games (baldur's gate, etc), Vehicle Combat Sims (Rogue Leader), Squad-based Combat Games (Freedom Fighter)
Post by: Rancid Planet on March 16, 2006, 09:20:38 PM
Post by: animecyberrat on March 17, 2006, 04:02:15 PM
As for GC games thet already solved that by allowing you to use your Game Cube controllers! They will keep those on the market for a long time just because of that.
But I guess fighting games still follow into that D-pad category and therfore are outdated concepts as far as Ninty is concerned anyways.
I can see how the remote will help some genres out and how it will create new genres but I dont HAVE to play with the remote to know that certain things wont be fun and I dont HAVE to touch the damn thing to know that fighting games are impossible as they stand.
It sucked ass that GC got so few fighting games and It will suck a lot worse if Rev has even fewer or none at all.
I will garuntee you that not only myself but a lot fo people I know will be getting a Ps3 or 360 just because of the fighting game situation if they cant find a workable solution.
I had to get Xbox already for fighting games because GC had so few.
Now I am NOT saying the remote sucks, I can see how certain genres will benefit and I certainly look forward to trying some FPSes out if they are good. I can also see how adventure games and action games and sports games will work, but I am having trouble figuring out how to do some of my favorite genres also.
Persoanly I would prefer it if the shell was included with the system just for fighting games or at least bubdled with a couple big name fighters liek Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter or something.
Also I still have doubts about Racing games, I mean I dont play racing games with a traditional pad anyways I always buy a racing wheel, but if the rev held sideways acts as steering wheel dev arent even going to bother making steering wheels and i dont want that at all. I like the realism it provieds playing with a racing wheel. thats a serious concern I have also.
Now I knwo some igroant people are going to say wait till e3 adn see how it works or I dont know what I am talking about cuz i never usedf it but to those people I trun it around, YOU DONT KNOW it will be fun either, none of us do, yeah we can all imagine how fun it could be but you NEED to also imagine how unbearable it MIGHT be. I defend ther evolution to death and I have faith in the system and concept and am already planning on buying one for the virtual console alone.
BUT I, justifiably, and nervous about the new way of playing because I know what kinds of games I like and I have trouble seeing the revmote making them fun let alone better. Its same with GC I have gotten broed with the new games so i mostly but old compilations or sequels to games I already like, I try new stuff out but a lot of the new stuff just sucks. Its going to be same with rev I will try new things before making a judegment but if I decide its NOT fun for me I sure a hell dont want someone telling me I dont knwo anything cuz I dont enjoy something. I didn't enjoy, Luigis Mansion, Mario Sunshine, Paper mario, or Wind Waker at all. Others did.
Right now all anyone can do is accept the FACT that the controller is still a concept and NO ONE Knows if it will suck or not.
Post by: wandering on March 17, 2006, 07:30:27 PM
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I can see how the remote will help some genres out and how it will create new genres but I dont HAVE to play with the remote to know that certain things wont be fun and I dont HAVE to touch the damn thing to know that fighting games are impossible as they stand.
The nice thing about the remote is that it's expandable. An attachment with six face buttons and a large d-pad or joystick will make the xbox 360 controller, with its four face buttons and d-pad in the non-primary position, look like crap for fighting games.
Post by: Ceric on March 18, 2006, 12:17:48 PM
