Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 11, 2006, 05:23:50 AM
Speaking to Game Informer at this week's D.I.C.E. Summit in Las Vegas, Nintendo exec Reggie Fils-Aime clarified a minor point about Revolution controller compatibility, which still the most significant new information about the system in months.
Reggie told Game Informer that the shell (which has yet to be shown) will be required to play "traditional" Revolution games with a familiar style of controller -- you can't just use an old GameCube pad for this purpose. The compatibility with GameCube accessories is only backwards in nature. The old controllers will work on GameCube games played on Revolution, and they may be compatible with NES, SNES, and N64 games played through the Virtual Console feature.
Nintendo's stance on this seemingly minor hardware issue may indicate that the traditional controller shell will have more or fewer buttons than the GameCube controller, or that Nintendo has told developers to include some motion-sensing features even in traditional games meant to be played with the shell (which does not preclude the freehand controller's sensors). Reggie has mentioned in the past that the traditional shell will look similar to the WaveBird controller.
Post by: trip1eX on February 11, 2006, 06:32:51 AM
Plus of course their new controller is the highlight of the new console and they want to show it off.
Post by: BlkPaladin on February 11, 2006, 07:05:56 AM
Post by: King of Twitch on February 11, 2006, 08:15:30 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2006, 09:06:45 AM
Of course Ian will complain that he wanted to use the GC controller for traditional games but I don't think he wants new gameplay, anyway.
Post by: vudu on February 11, 2006, 09:18:09 AM
There should totally be an [Ian] tag.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 11, 2006, 09:49:52 AM
You guys might consider this blasphemy, but I'm hoping there will be some kind of goofy third-party USB converter that lets me use an Xbox 360 controller for traditional games. But maybe the shell will be even better, who knows?
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 11, 2006, 09:51:15 AM
This was to be expected, and I think this makes it that much more likely that the Shell will have a different button layout...(Possibly enough to make do with 360/PS3 ports)
Edit: The 360 controller is inferior to the Wavebird in terms of feel...
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 11, 2006, 10:21:32 AM
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 01:05:52 PM
Nintendo doesn't have to worry about devs "dumbing down" their games to meet the GameCube controller. The two-button Revmote is the standard controller. It will (barring some insanity) ship with each and every Revolution system. The games will clearly be built with the Revmote being assumed to be the standard. The GameCube controller is an accessory.
Nintendo just locked out that accessory. And you guys are apologizing for it.
When third parties make PS3/Xbox2 games available on the Rev, not only will the Rev version likely be graphically inferior, and not only will the gameplay likely be dumbed down to fit a two-button controller (with maybe a 3D space control gimmick tacked on), but you won't be able to choose between the shell and a Wavebird.
Yay for Nintendo.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on February 11, 2006, 01:42:27 PM
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2006, 02:16:00 PM
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on February 11, 2006, 02:19:59 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 03:01:53 PM
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2006, 03:06:58 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 03:45:52 PM
If a Rev game needs a GameCube controller/peripherial, there's another alternative to "It gets a custom shell". It's called "The game gets cancelled" (or more accurately, it never makes it past the design stage). Or maybe it just gets crippled.
Post by: mantidor on February 11, 2006, 03:57:55 PM
Post by: Pale on February 11, 2006, 05:06:30 PM
Post by: Nile Boogie on February 11, 2006, 05:08:14 PM
I understand why you can't use the GameCube controllers for the Rev. I also disagree that this is a smart move. I think it places unnecessary limitations on the REV and its Backwards compatibility. Until we see the Revolution, the "shell" and some games then this seems like a so-so move at best.
I bet you .57cents that Ian thinks this is a smart move.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 11, 2006, 05:12:51 PM
Post by: Artimus on February 11, 2006, 05:13:14 PM
I just don't get the problem...you have to get new controllers with every system, duh?
Post by: Pale on February 11, 2006, 05:16:58 PM
Anyway, the only legitimate worry I think Ruby brings up is that of bongos and dance mats. That said, I would rather have wireless dance mats, and wireless bongos, assuming they continue to release games that use them.
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2006, 05:31:42 PM
Post by: UncleBob on February 11, 2006, 05:36:08 PM
Quote
The old controllers will work on GameCube games played on Revolution, and they may be compatible with NES, SNES, and N64 games played through the Virtual Console feature.
Okay, I'm going to be really ticked if GCN Controllers (and such like the wonderfully spectacular Hori Digital Controller) do not work on the older games. I want to play NES/SNES games with the Hori.
Here's a good question though - the GameCube is fairly smart - it knows if you have a regular controller, Bongo, Action Pad or GCN/GBA cable plugged into it. Is there any chance that while Revolution games won't work with GCN Controllers they *could* work with the bongos or such?
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2006, 05:47:13 PM
Quote
Okay, I'm going to be really ticked if GCN Controllers (and such like the wonderfully spectacular Hori Digital Controller) do not work on the older games. I want to play NES/SNES games with the Hori.
I agree with that, but i'm pretty sure it will be. It would take 5 minutes to enable the GC controller to play SNES / NES games, not sure about N64 though.
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 05:56:00 PM
QuoteI'm expecting it to have 8 buttons for N64 VC compatibility (maybe including shoulder button(s)).
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
What this news says to me is that the shell probably won't have the same button layout or even same number of buttons as the GameCube controller.
You guys might consider this blasphemy, but I'm hoping there will be some kind of goofy third-party USB converter that lets me use an Xbox 360 controller for traditional games. But maybe the shell will be even better, who knows?
And Bill's right; the Wavebird is more ergonomic than the 360 controller. As well, the 360's analogue stick is not even comparable to the GCN's (WAY too smooth). And finally, the 360's buttons don't have quite as good a feel as Nintendo ones.
Nintendo will probably replace the C-Stick with another analogue stick, and the Z-button will be improved on (if there are shoulder buttons).
So I have no doubt that the shell will be good enough for traditional games.
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 06:01:33 PM
Post by: ThePerm on February 11, 2006, 06:14:08 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 06:46:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
So...we can't use a controller that not longer serves all the needed functions to play a game? Oh my, what a tragedy. If we're talking about ports then using the GCN controller only continues the port flaw of the controller in the first place! If they release a shell with "enough" buttons then you get the best of both worlds. Using the GCN controller would be stupid on all front...
I just don't get the problem...you have to get new controllers with every system, duh?
You asked for it.
Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2002
What I really want to say is, "Get accustomed to the GCN Controller because, 10 years from now, this controller will be the standard."
Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2005
"Well, of course, the idea is that the Revolution will sell and sell and sell so it becomes the standard in the industry. However, at least for the launch period...we designed the controller so it can play any of the different conventional styles. After all, we are talking about it playing games from our past machines. So don't worry."
Quote
Added by: Reggie
And just in case any of you were getting any bright ideas about using a GameCube controller for those older-style games, you can forget about it. We're adding a second L Trigger and a Select Button to the shell, so now you couldn't even use a GameCube controller if you wanted to.
Edit: BTW, my Reggie quote is a joke. The Shiggy quotes are real.
Post by: Artimus on February 11, 2006, 06:55:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixQuote
Originally posted by: Artimus
So...we can't use a controller that not longer serves all the needed functions to play a game? Oh my, what a tragedy. If we're talking about ports then using the GCN controller only continues the port flaw of the controller in the first place! If they release a shell with "enough" buttons then you get the best of both worlds. Using the GCN controller would be stupid on all front...
I just don't get the problem...you have to get new controllers with every system, duh?
You asked for it.Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2002
What I really want to say is, "Get accustomed to the GCN Controller because, 10 years from now, this controller will be the standard."Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2005
"Well, of course, the idea is that the Revolution will sell and sell and sell so it becomes the standard in the industry. However, at least for the launch period...we designed the controller so it can play any of the different conventional styles. After all, we are talking about it playing games from our past machines. So don't worry."Quote
Added by: Reggie
And just in case any of you were getting any bright ideas about using a GameCube controller for those older-style games, you can forget about it. We're adding a second L Trigger and a Select Button to the shell, so now you couldn't even use a GameCube controller if you wanted to.
I don't get your point? Reggie and the second Shiggie quote prove my point...The first Miyamoto quote just turned out to not be true.
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 07:35:44 PM
In the NES era, Nintendo abandoned the joystick in favor of the D-pad, and they ushered in a revolutionary new control style.
With the SNES, Nintendo refined the d-pad-based controller into what is quite possibly the most perfect controller of it's kind.
Then with the N64, Nintendo revolutionized again with analog. It wasn't perfect, but analog carried it.
Then with the Cube, Nintendo refined the analog controller, reacting to everyone else's refinement of their idea, but it was clearly flawed. Me Ian and a number of other people could plainly see it, but Shiggy said it was perfection and half the Nintendo fanbase had their heads too far up his butt to see otherwise.
Now Nintendo's revolutionizing again, with a 3D space controller. And if you ask me, it's far from perfect. It's strengths (as great as they appear to be) are going to have to carry it's flaws yet again. And I know I'll probably be flamed for saying it.
And at this same time, Nintendo is finally admitting that they failed to perfect the analog controller with the Cube. And that they're trying again with the shell. I've got mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, I think they're right to make improvements. On the other, I wonder if maybe they're a little too late for that. They've moved on to the Revmote. Also, the GCN controller didn't exactly suck, and any improvements would likely be minor. Is that significant enough to justify an incompatible redesign? Should we just allow Nintendo to go back on their 2002 claims, and make similar new claims, without raking them over the coals a little? I think I'm starting to ramble, but those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 07:47:13 PM
I still haven't figured out a way to play N64 games on the GameCube controller.
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 11, 2006, 07:59:45 PM
Post by: Artimus on February 11, 2006, 08:00:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixAnd at this same time, Nintendo is finally admitting that they failed to perfect the analog controller with the Cube. And that they're trying again with the shell. I've got mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, I think they're right to make improvements. On the other, I wonder if maybe they're a little too late for that. They've moved on to the Revmote. Also, the GCN controller didn't exactly suck, and any improvements would likely be minor. Is that significant enough to justify an incompatible redesign? Should we just allow Nintendo to go back on their 2002 claims, and make similar new claims, without raking them over the coals a little? I think I'm starting to ramble, but those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.
I don't know about you, but people consistantly (and rightly) complain about the issue of ports. The only problem with the GCN controller is the Z-button, which is mostly useless. Otherwise it's the best controller out there. It has the best sticks, the best shoulder triggers, a very good button configuration and is extremely comfortable. But if you're going to make a shell almost exclusively so certain games can be ported, it makes NO sense not to at least change the controller so it's exactly mapable with the other two systems.
Also, who says the GCN setup isn't the ideal setup? The fact that more people bought the XBOX and PS2 and therefore companies make control schemes requiring more buttons doesn't necessarily indicate Nintendo's design is inferior.
There's just not making you happy. If Nintendo didn't update the shell they'd be screwing over fans by ruining ports (again). If they do change it you claim bloody murder for some reason you still haven't explained.
There has never been a system in history where you didn't need a new controller to play the new games for it. The closest you have is Dual Shock to DS2, and there's no need to point out that that's the one time when a brand new controller SHOULD have been made. Nintendo is improving a design so that the maximum number of games can be played on the Revolution as possible. You can use the GCN controller to play GCN games, and likely NES-N64 games. You need the shell (and likely added functionality) to play new games. Makes perfect sense, the best of both worlds. To me that's a good thing. But to you, nothing is right and nothing is enough.
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 08:10:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I think saying things like "The meal isn't cooked well enough" should be held until AFTER the meal is served, don't you agree?
Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.
Quote
Originally posted by: Artimus
I don't know about you, but people consistantly (and rightly) complain about the issue of ports.
I don't think the issue is ports. I think the issue is being capable of playing conventional game styles.
Quote
There's just not making you happy. If Nintendo didn't update the shell they'd be screwing over fans by ruining ports (again). If they do change it you claim bloody murder for some reason you still haven't explained.
I'm not really "claiming bloody murder". And I guess the simplest explanation is "options". I think they should make the shell as good as they can, but we don't know what Nintendo's going to do with it, and if a Rev game comes out that happens to be fully-playable with a GCN controller, and if the Rev has four GameCube controller ports, then you should be able to do that.
Quote
There has never been a system in history where you didn't need a new controller to play the new games for it.
There's been a clear reason for every change, and I think the reason needs to be good enough. Needing custom link cables for the GameBoy micro is an example I'd give of the reason not being good enough. The Revmote is a good reason. I'm worried that the Shell might not be a good enough reason.
Post by: Artimus on February 11, 2006, 08:17:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixQuote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I think saying things like "The meal isn't cooked well enough" should be held until AFTER the meal is served, don't you agree?
Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.
I don't really like Ian, but at least he has the decency to make sense!
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 08:19:37 PM
QuoteHate to break it to you, but you're not part of Nintendo. You have absolutely no idea about what the shell is going to be like.. So you can't reasonably comment on how good or bad it is.
Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.
EDIT: What I'm saying is based on the assumption that Ruby implied (took me a while to figure out his post) that if Nintendo waited until after a controller was released to say that it is not good enough, they would keep ending up with failures.
EDIT 2: I hear you Artimus
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2006, 08:44:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
But even the Mega Drive let me use Master System control pads, didn't matter that they lacked a button and made most games unplayable! Revolution isn't worth my time now!
And the Master System let me use C64 joysticks.
Ruby: Ian Sane RPing?
Post by: IceCold on February 11, 2006, 09:18:46 PM
Post by: ShyGuy on February 11, 2006, 09:22:21 PM
Bill, what kind of cookie are you betting? Is it an Oreo?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 11, 2006, 10:08:34 PM
Post by: Mario on February 11, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
Quote
Now Nintendo's revolutionizing again, with a 3D space controller. And if you ask me, it's far from perfect.
lol
Quote
I don't really like Ian, but at least he has the decency to make sense!
Agreed. Who is this guy and what has he done with ruby_onix
Post by: ruby_onix on February 11, 2006, 11:25:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by IceCold
Ruby: Why are you ignoring the fact that the Cube controller can't play N64 games?
I don't really know what to say on that subject. I think too little has been said by Nintendo about the shell/shells to match with everyone's opinions on them.
That said, even if the shell has the full capabilities of an N64 controller (right down to the expansion slot), I don't see why Nintendo wouldn't let people use GameCube devices whenever they fit the situation.
But, as the original newspost suggested, Nintendo might be trying to force Revmote functionality down every Rev game's throat.
Quote
Originally posted by Mario
Who is this guy and what has he done with ruby_onix
Happy?
Post by: KDR_11k on February 12, 2006, 03:55:34 AM
They want to force it down developers' throats because otherwise we'll just see graphically inferior ports of games that don't use any of the Rev's features. Or they want to enforce consistency and make sure devs won't have to fear penalties inrevies if they choose not to support GC controllers in their games.
Post by: Nile Boogie on February 12, 2006, 04:26:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
But, as the original newspost suggested, Nintendo might be trying to force Revmote functionality down every Rev game's throat.
They want to force it down developers' throats because otherwise we'll just see graphically inferior ports of games that don't use any of the Rev's features. Or they want to enforce consistency and make sure devs won't have to fear penalties inrevies if they choose not to support GC controllers in their games.
You are absolutely right on point. Now I understand. Thanks thats helps me understand the logic behind this move. Maybe somebody can answer this ? Why do people say the GameCube controller wont work for N64 games. Can't the C-stick replace the c-buttons. No expert am I but I can't fathom one N64 game where you have to press any 3 C-buttons at once or any two that are opposite of each other. Help me out on this one.
Post by: KirbySStar on February 12, 2006, 06:04:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Nile BoogieMaybe somebody can answer this ? Why do people say the GameCube controller wont work for N64 games. Can't the C-stick replace the c-buttons. No expert am I but I can't fathom one N64 game where you have to press any 3 C-buttons at once or any two that are opposite of each other. Help me out on this one.
Because it would make playing Star Fox 64 hell!
Twisting side to side, Barrel Roll, Hovering with tank
N64: Z + R
Cube: Z + R are right next to each other, Z would have to be remapped to L
But here's the main issue:
Loop
N64: analog down + C-left
Cube: analog down + c-stick left
U-turn
N64: analog down + C-down
Cube: analog down + c-stick down
So what happens when you perform analog down and c-stick diagonally down-left? Digital prevails in precision. Also take a look at where the c-stick is located on the cube controller. It is far below the A and B buttons. However on the N64 the c buttons are located neatly to the right of the A and B buttons. C-left and C-down in particular are right next to A and B. Pressing those buttons is done very easily. You cannot say the same for c-stick down and left on the cube controller. You have to move your hand way too far. The only way to correct this is mapping Loop and U-turn to X and Y on the cube controller.
So far the only way of fixing these games is to remap certain buttons. This is really defeating the purpose. What if you start getting games which use a lot more buttons. Are you going to have to remap these buttons to pressing two cube buttons at the same time ala Soul Calibur II?
The only way Nintendo can really get the virtual console working very easily for N64 games is by using the controller shell. If they don't then they have to go through a shitload of remapping games to the cube controller which doesn't work as well.
They can save face if they include the controller shell with the revmote. I hope they do this. I really hope they do.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on February 12, 2006, 07:48:02 AM
Post by: Artimus on February 12, 2006, 09:10:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Bongos for revolution are probably not necessary since you can just use two Revmotes like drumsticks.
Get outta here, your logic and good common sense is not allowed on these forums! We have no room for such things!
Post by: KirbySStar on February 12, 2006, 09:35:37 AM
I'm sure that in rare cases like this Nintendo will either let you use the cube ports or they will have an accessory that comes out of the revmote if necessary.
The point you people are missing is that Nintendo is trying to standardize control on Revolution games. Unless it's something completely crazy and happens to be beyond the revmote plus adaptor's capabilities then Nintendo is forcing developers to use the revmote, nunchuck, controller shell, and any future accessories for the revmote.
Post by: Artimus on February 12, 2006, 10:24:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KirbySStar
How does one clap with two revmotes in one's hands? Nevermind the fact that you'd lose all haptic sense of hitting bongos with your open hands all the while fu(king up your revmotes with the constant table beatings. I hope you aren't using something expensive as the drum surface.
You don't HIT a surface, silly. You hit something on screen, or air! More like a snare drum than a bongo.
Post by: KirbySStar on February 12, 2006, 10:48:52 AM
Airdrumming != the way you use bongos.
Post by: Artimus on February 12, 2006, 10:55:42 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: KirbySStar
You are missing the entire point. Bongos > two revmotes for Donkey Konga and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. I'm pretty sure we'd all love a sequel to Jungle Beat. So in order to get that experience again you either have to use the physical bongos or something that we haven't seen yet.
Airdrumming != the way you use bongos.
Pehraps Nintendo has 0 intent to make a sequel? And how do you know they won't allow you to use the bongos with the games? If the system can read the ports for GCN games, it can read them for Rev games. When reggie says controller I don't see any reason to take him at anything other than 'controller'.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2006, 11:17:51 AM
Post by: KirbySStar on February 12, 2006, 11:57:32 AM
QuoteOkay. Thanks for um agreeing with me I guess.
Originally posted by: ArtimusQuote
Originally posted by: KirbySStar
You are missing the entire point. Bongos > two revmotes for Donkey Konga and Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. I'm pretty sure we'd all love a sequel to Jungle Beat. So in order to get that experience again you either have to use the physical bongos or something that we haven't seen yet.
Airdrumming != the way you use bongos.
Pehraps Nintendo has 0 intent to make a sequel? And how do you know they won't allow you to use the bongos with the games? If the system can read the ports for GCN games, it can read them for Rev games. When reggie says controller I don't see any reason to take him at anything other than 'controller'.
Quote
Originally posted by: KirbySStar
I'm sure that in rare cases like this Nintendo will either let you use the cube ports or they will have an accessory that comes out of the revmote if necessary.
Post by: Artimus on February 12, 2006, 12:35:01 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: KirbySStar
Okay. Thanks for um agreeing with me I guess.
Sorry, this thread is so full of stupidness I missed your post. I do indeed agree.
The worst part about Nintendo's blackout, imho, is the obnoxious negativity based on absolutely nothing. This is the time when fans should be the most optimistic and hopeful, but there are always some carpetbags who drag everyone down and ruin the fun.
Post by: Smash_Brother on February 12, 2006, 12:49:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArtimusThe worst part about Nintendo's blackout, imho, is the obnoxious negativity based on absolutely nothing. This is the time when fans should be the most optimistic and hopeful, but there are always some carpetbags who drag everyone down and ruin the fun.
They've had a tendency to make a big fuss over nothing in the past, hence why myself and many others are hesitant to expect much.
I HOPE that they blow the industry away when that curtain goes up, but I don't expect that in the least.
If the DS is an indicator of the future of Nintendo, then I like the way they're headed. Becoming the "Apple" of the gaming industry may mean that you innovate while everyone else rips you off but you always have a following and you're impossible to "kill".
Also, while Apple is by far the most expensive computer reseller, Nintendo has and always will be the very cheapest, ensuring that the only excuse for not picking up their hardware is that you're and anal fanboy of another company.
Post by: Mario on February 12, 2006, 05:11:18 PM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 12, 2006, 05:42:58 PM
Post by: Dasmos on February 13, 2006, 12:02:40 AM
Post by: Mario on February 13, 2006, 12:56:33 AM
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 13, 2006, 04:15:07 AM
Post by: nitsu niflheim on February 13, 2006, 04:27:32 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on February 13, 2006, 05:02:57 AM
Here's an interesting problem, though. How would you make a controller that is 100% backwards-compatable with all existing controllers? One possibility is to take the GameCube controller and put two more face buttons on it. That would give you all the buttons the N64 had, plus the extra analog nub. But what about ports? Microsoft has basically given in to Sony's double-shoulder button layout (which I'm not crazy about). Do we have to have an uber controller with six face buttons and four shoulder buttons?
No. My guess is Nintendo will let you remap the controls for N64 games, and maybe some older games. Heck, why not let people remap the controller however they want for every game? This seems like the smart fix, but Nintendo might view it as too complicated - it rarely offers controller configuration options in it's existing games.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 13, 2006, 06:47:48 AM
This to me suggests that the shell is going to be standard with every console. Ideally it should come with every controller if Nintendo intends on it to be adapted in any significant way at all but I don't know if they'll do that. The shell is probably included with the console at least for sure.
I always saw the inclusion of the Cube controllers as a nice bonus for Cube owners and having four slots was to ensure complete compatibility so that even you want to play four player Donkey Konga on the Rev you can. If everything goes according to plan most Rev owners aren't going to be Cube owners. That's just logical. Nintendo has said they want to sell more Revs than they sold Cubes and that means selling to people who didn't own Cubes. So it can't be assumed that any Rev owner automatically owns Cube controllers so Nintendo can't have third parties making games that need that controller. Now making sure no one needs the controller doesn't require a complete ban so it would be nice if a game could be allowed to support the Cube controller if it already works with the shell. Nintendo, as usual, is going a little overboard here. I would like to use my Hori controller for NES/SNES games.
It would be nice if we could see the shell because that information would greatly affect our opinions. If the shell is perfect then no one would really care about the Cube controller and if it sucks then anyone supporting this would probably change their tune. This is more "it can't do this" news for the Rev and it would be nice if it was complimented with something positive. So far the Rev just sounds incredibly restrictive when in theory it's supposed to be the opposite.
As for Cube accessories like the bongos it just doesn't make sense to support it. Honestly how well do you think a bongo game, which is already niche to begin with, would sell if it required last gen hardware accessories to play it? We got three games that support that accessory. That's better then the usual one. Ideally I guess Nintendo could just re-release the bongos if a new bongo game came out but that's assuming they would even make anymore bongo games. It kind of sucks but it might be a non-issue entirely depending on what's released. If Nintendo releases a Rev bongo controller that is more or less exactly like the Cube one then everyone is free to complain.
Regarding Nintendo forcing motion control into every game that would SUCK though they'll probably do it. Every item on a controller should be optional to the developer. If the developer makes a horrible control scheme because they ignore key stuff that's their problem. I think the ideal example of why not to force something like that is Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow. Dawn of Sorrow is a great game but it doesn't really use the touchscreen in a useful way. All it has is this annoying seal system. The seal system feels very forced and unneeded. It's also awkward as hell because you beat a boss using the d-pad and buttons and then suddenly you're expected to pick up your stylus and draw something. I'd say the game is hurt by this feature and would be better off without it. I've heard that Nintendo forces the use of the touchscreen for DS games and looking at DoS that's pretty believable because I can't see any other reason to include something so contrived and stupid into an otherwise near perfect game. That's the sort of annoying crap we would have to deal with if Nintendo forced motion control into every game.
Plus to me forcing the use of a feature suggests that in fact the feature isn't that great at all. If it's a really great idea you don't have to force people to use it because they'll end up using it anyway. The analog stick wasn't forced. It was just there and it was widely used anyway. Forcing the feature seems desperate to me. Like they feel they have to force-feed it to us in order to catch on. If you have to force-feed it then the idea sucks.
At least now when I say that Nintendo HAS to include the shell with every controller no one can say "you can just use the Cube controller".
Post by: KDR_11k on February 13, 2006, 07:56:37 AM
Regarding Nintendo forcing motion control into every game that would SUCK though they'll probably do it.
I doubt it. They'd encourage it but they haven't enforced touchscreen usage on the DS, they won't enforce gyro usage on the Rev. Doesn't mean reviewers won't dock points for not using these features (even when that'd make no sense) just as they docked points for a game not being online on the GC. The only area where Nintendo really enforces anything anymore is stability (and I've heard rumors of GBA dev managers cursing Nintendo's bugtesting standards, shows you what crap we'd get without any limits), they're afraid of pissing off developers these days and have the least restrictions on content.
It's also awkward as hell because you beat a boss using the d-pad and buttons and then suddenly you're expected to pick up your stylus and draw something.
I said it before and I'll say it again: The fingernail works just fine.
I've heard that Nintendo forces the use of the touchscreen for DS games and looking at DoS that's pretty believable because I can't see any other reason to include something so contrived and stupid into an otherwise near perfect game.
I don't believe that, too many DS games don't use the touchscreen at all (Mario Kart DS anyone?). Most likely Konami felt obliged to use the touch screen now that it's there.
Plus to me forcing the use of a feature suggests that in fact the feature isn't that great at all. If it's a really great idea you don't have to force people to use it because they'll end up using it anyway.
Not necessarily. Many companies love doing cookie-cutter ports that use none of the system's special features (no keyboard text input in PC versions???) and sometimes don't even translate button names (THPS3 for the PC demands that you press the triangle button). But all that nonwithstanding I don't think they'll force devs to use the gyro data for anything, they just force users to use controllers that provide gyro data so devs wouldn't remove features because they're worried that reviewers complain about lack of GC controller support when the game doesn't make excessive use of the gyro data.
Post by: Ian Sane on February 13, 2006, 08:35:49 AM
Unfortunately I chew my nails.
"I don't believe that, too many DS games don't use the touchscreen at all (Mario Kart DS anyone?)."
Mario Kart DS can use the touchscreen for menu items. Minor stuff but the feature is used.
"Doesn't mean reviewers won't dock points for not using these features (even when that'd make no sense) just as they docked points for a game not being online on the GC."
Well usually when they dock points for no online it's because the PS2/Xbox version has online and thus a huge feature is missing from the Cube version in a direct comparison. Technically the Cube version is a "lesser game" and thus doesn't deserve the same score. Reviewers usually look at things from a multi-console point of view and their recommendations usually come from the approach where you can access all current consoles and thus need to know which version is the best. Mario Kart: DD didn't have a PS2/Xbox equivalent but they implemented LAN support but not online support. They did like half the work already so I can see why reviewers complained.
Similarly early DS games often got criticized for not making good use of the stylus. Often those games did use the stylus, just not in a way that was all that interesting. I think the problem there was at launch Nintendo failed to provide a game that made good use of the concept themselves so suddenly every game that used the stylus had to sell the concept even though it wasn't really that dev's responsibility. The same thing can be avoided on the Rev if Nintendo has a really killer motion controlled game at launch so that the concept is sold and thus each review isn't an analysis on the feature itself.
And I think there's a big difference between offering keyboard text input and motion control. Keyboards were widely used prior to console text input. Consoles have been using a workaround for that functionality since day one. But motion control largely is a brand new concept. Its use is not immediately so obvious. I can't think of anything where like text input people would complain "hey this should use motion control".
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 13, 2006, 08:50:33 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again: The fingernail works just fine.
I always have my stylus in my mouth, even when I'm playing a game that doesn't require the stylus!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 13, 2006, 08:54:25 AM
Bill slobber would be a pretty good way to keep others from playing your DS.
Post by: vudu on February 13, 2006, 10:36:25 AM
QuoteJust like they force developers to use every feature on the DS.
Regarding Nintendo forcing motion control into every game that would SUCK though they'll probably do it.
QuoteAs has been pointed out my some of my quicker-on-the-draw colleagues, Nintendo doesn't force developers to implement these features--the developers (or maybe the publishers) do it to themselves. Also, like Bill, I hold the stylus in my mouth (but only for DoS boss fights).
I think the ideal example of why not to force something like that is Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow. Dawn of Sorrow is a great game but it doesn't really use the touchscreen in a useful way. All it has is this annoying seal system. The seal system feels very forced and unneeded.
Post by: Dasmos on February 13, 2006, 11:43:11 AM
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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
WHAT? NO! >=|
Post by: Bill Aurion on February 13, 2006, 11:58:25 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Bill slobber would be a pretty good way to keep others from playing your DS.
Maybe that's a good reason to learn how to slobber...
Quote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
Too bad, you'll have to deal with third!
Post by: Dasmos on February 13, 2006, 12:07:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
Too bad, you'll have to deal with third!
Post by: Mario on February 13, 2006, 04:12:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: DasmosQuote
Originally posted by: Bill AurionQuote
Originally posted by: Dasmos
Too bad, you'll have to deal with third!
A high score beat off is in order. Whoops Dasmos already won.
Post by: Shecky on February 13, 2006, 06:05:55 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
This to me suggests that the shell is going to be standard with every console.
This news? I've always assumed that the shell would be part of the package. What good is the Virtual Console without it? The VC is a big push of the system... it's going to be accessible out of the box. I always thought the question was whether or not it would be included with extra controllers. (My guess is that it's not going to be... your going to have to buy the analog stick and shell separately... it's the new memory card!)
Post by: Ian Sane on February 14, 2006, 06:53:48 AM
Yeah but that's logical thinking and I've found regarding Nintendo what's logical and what they actually do isn't always the same thing. Logically the shell has to come with every controller if it's to be used in any serious way at all. But we're still pretty iffy about that. Reg more or less confirmed that the shell will come with the console here so that's why I feel safe in saying that. It always seemed logical to me but that's was never enough for me to assume they would.
Post by: JonLeung on February 14, 2006, 07:01:29 AM
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Originally posted by: Shecky
What good is the Virtual Console without it?
NES games.
"Revmote" + 90 degree rotation to the left = stylized NES controller (with extra buttons).
Yeah, you'd probably want something for Super NES games and N64 games but a big chunk of the library will be fine without any shell, if for some reason one isn't packed in.
Post by: wandering on February 14, 2006, 07:14:40 PM
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Do we have to have an uber controller with six face buttons and four shoulder buttons?
No.
Why not? Nintendo should go all out with this thing. The great thing about the shell is that Nintendo doesn't have to comromise for the sake of simplicity with the shell (or compromise for the sake of functionality with the remote.)
I'm imagining a face button layout similiar to the genesis, except with a being the only large button, and b being above a instead of to the right. Man, can you imagine if Nintendo suddenly had the ultimate 2d fighting game controller?
Quote
I always thought the question was whether or not it would be included with extra controllers. (My guess is that it's not going to be... your going to have to buy the analog stick and shell separately... it's the new memory card!)
That's my guess as well. If Nintendo sold remotes seperatley for $30 a piece, and sold 2-in-one packs containg one nunchaku and one shell for $10 a piece, would that be so bad?
Post by: IceCold on February 14, 2006, 08:15:16 PM
Then, there would be a Z button at the top like the Wavebird, except it would be made a lot better (easier to push, more comfortable to rest finger on etc)
So to play NES games, you can use the NRC or the shell (left buttons). To play SNES games, you would use the normal diamond layout and the shoulder buttons of the shell.
To play N64 games, you have A&B as the left buttons, then on the right you have three others. These would be C-left, right and down. C-up would be the Z button.
GameCube games can also be played.
Finally, I would replace the C-Stick with an analogue stick and upgrade the D-Pad.
Post by: wandering on February 14, 2006, 08:49:53 PM
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To play N64 games, you have A&B as the left buttons, then on the right you have three others. These would be C-left, right and down. C-up would be the Z button.
That wouldn't very well with fpses....
Post by: Ian Sane on February 15, 2006, 06:29:13 AM
-6 digital face buttons arranged uniformly in the classic Street Fighter setup. This is a must for N64 games. One advantage is that even the odd Cube layout works here because that "shape" is hidden within the 6 buttons. Imagine the bottom buttons were labled A, B, C and the top were X, Y, Z like the 6-button Genesis controller. A, B, C & Y would make up the Cube button layout.
-twin analog sticks in the same layout as the Cube controller. I would make them both like the "main" analog stick. I found the c-stick lacking. Ideally if this was supposed to be universal the sticks should "click" like the dual shock and Xbox controllers but for just Nintendo games that feature is optional. I'd include it anyway for easy ports.
-d-pad. Similar location to the Cube one only it would be big and useful. This isn't perfect for d-pad games but you're kind of stuck with this or the analog stick in the "main" position. The idea in my head looks a lot like the Saturn 3D Pad. I've never used that controller but the d-pad looks pretty useable. The Cube controller is small and the d-pad is small and I think if both were made bigger the d-pad would be much easier to use.
-L&R digital shoulder buttons. SNES and N64 games need digital shoulder buttons. You can't push analog buttons quick enough and some games need that quick response. Plus there's the pesky Z-button on the Cube which can be handled here.
-L&R analog triggers. Ideally you need both the digital and the analog shoulder buttons. The Cube had both so why not the shell? Personally I would make them lower down and more like triggers like the Dreamcast shoulder buttons. I would add the digitial "click" for Cube compatibility. Something like the Cube would probably work fine too. This also helps for the PS3/X360 ports because both of those controllers have four shoulder buttons. I don't care much for that design but I think it's important to provide as much flexibility as possible.
-Start & select. The NES and SNES have both so let's include both. The competition has two "admin buttons" as well so it's good for ports.
One thing I always thought would be a good idea for a "universal" controller is motion control either inside the controller or a slot like the N64 controller and a motion control "pack" can be inserted in. Well that's what the remote is so it works. The remote is going to stick out of the top so the shell has to be bottom heavy to distribute the weight.
I can't think of any game that uses the standard controller for a Nintendo system that wouldn't work on this setup (well aside from VB or DS games of course). In fact I think this would work for almost every console except the Intellivision. Naturally the buttons are mapable so if I want A to be B I can even if the game itself doesn't let me. That fixes stuff like the Mega Man Anniversary Collection problem.
Post by: KDR_11k on February 15, 2006, 09:26:45 AM
But yes, I agree that all buttons should be remappable. I'd hate having to use two buttons that are next to each other (GBA's A and B) as opposed to in a line (SNES's Y and B) for NES games.
Post by: wandering on February 19, 2006, 09:50:09 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 19, 2006, 11:11:16 PM
Post by: wandering on February 19, 2006, 11:18:33 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2006, 05:49:15 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on February 20, 2006, 07:30:01 AM
