Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 08:34:31 AM
o) 512MB of flash memory is expandable. Duh...
o) Revolution's disc drive is the first slot-based disc drive that can handle two different formats. Formats, I'm geussing, meaning whatever type of disk the GC has and then tis new propriety REV disk. If he's just talking about being able to slot load two different sized disks then I think he's mistaken.
o) Number of third parties have already committed to providing their back catalogue for download. He goes on to say that it's the "usual suspects."
o) It is possible that you could download trailers, in-game music or demos of games that would expire in 30 days, or a game that you could share with another person. This was just an example, but it is intriguing that they are at least thinking about this. In-game music would kick ass.
o) Merrick confirms that Hideo Kojima is working with Revoluton project. Finally, some damn good information though we could of geussed this with all the hints being dropped.
o) "With [the] DS, we were 14 weeks, which was the tightest Nintendo has ever been with a console launch and that was an achievement. But with [the] Revolution, we expect to do better than that. That certainly is our goal."
o) Europe might not be left behind for once. It´s possible that Revolution would be launched in Europe before Japan or USA. In my opinion, this is a crock of sh!t.
Anyway, take it as you will.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 09, 2005, 08:38:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
In-game music would kick ass.
Yes, it would!
Post by: Ian Sane on November 09, 2005, 09:09:59 AM
How do you drink a frankfurter?
"Oh gosh, I remember that, I love the original Mario Bros, I grew up on that game, a couple of pounds and boy I can download that"
A couple of pounds for Mario Bros? Well maybe he means Super Mario Bros but still a couple of pounds seems a little pricey for either of those games (remember that pounds are worth more than American or Canadian dollars). Super Mario Bros might as well be free. You can find used copies of it for like a quarter.
"Merrick says he's not sure if we'll only get to play games using the freestyle controller, or if those which use the 'nunchuk' or 'classic' add-ons will also be on show."
Interesting. Now the question is does Merrick know about Nintendo's first party games. If he does then this suggests that all of Nintendo's current Rev projects are using the remote exclusively. That's not really suprising though as a skeptic of the remote I'm not too confident about that. SSB with the remote for example doesn't really get my motor running particularly since we haven't got an online SSB with the "normal" controls and probably never will if Nintendo makes everything use the remote. The remote better truly be the future of gaming if Nintendo is going to make it their universal standard.
I'm happy to hear confirmation that Kojima is working on something. Let's just hope it's not that silly "the game destroys itself when you die" idea.
Post by: ThePerm on November 09, 2005, 09:10:39 AM
Post by: Plugabugz on November 09, 2005, 10:07:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Don'tHate742
o) Europe might not be left behind for once. It´s possible that Revolution would be launched in Europe before Japan or USA. In my opinion, this is a crock of sh!t.
It shows a sign that they really are starting to pay attention to us over here. The fact that they acknowledged it is good enough!
It may not (and likely will not) happen, but so long as we aren't forced to wait 12 weeks after the USA and Japan (ala DS) then that's good.
A perfect launch would be a 2 week gap between each territory.
Post by: vudu on November 09, 2005, 10:57:34 AM
QuoteI guess this means Nintendo's definitely going with regular DVD. Which isn't that bad, considering Microsoft is doing the same.
[W]hen it comes to the question of Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD, Merrick's very clear as to which side Nintendo's on: "Neither. We're not getting involved with that argument at all." It's probably for the best.
Post by: Famicom on November 09, 2005, 11:19:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: vudu
You missed a very important point.QuoteI guess this means Nintendo's definitely going with regular DVD. Which isn't that bad, considering Microsoft is doing the same.
[W]hen it comes to the question of Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD, Merrick's very clear as to which side Nintendo's on: "Neither. We're not getting involved with that argument at all." It's probably for the best.
It had been largely known that they weren't going with either future format, but what isn't known is what capacity the discs they make will be. Just because it's DVD doesn't mean it'll be DVD9 or even a DVD5. Could be another size altogether like GC discs were.
Post by: vudu on November 09, 2005, 11:32:04 AM
EDIT: Someone care to explain what the difference is between DVD9 and DVD5? I know 9 holds more data, but how? Size? Layers? Encoding?
Can standard DVD players read both formats, or do you need a special player to read one (or both) of them? What's a regular DVD (9 or 5)?
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on November 09, 2005, 11:51:49 AM
And who says it has to be a DVD? What about that 1-terrabyte kind?
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 09, 2005, 12:13:33 PM
Post by: odifiend on November 09, 2005, 12:43:11 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 12:56:50 PM
Did Panasonic make the GC disks? If so, I'll bet anything that they're making the REV disks as well. Talking about this is stupid though. Whatever Nintendo does it'll at least match the Xbox 360, so factoring in what ever we're trying to factor here is pointless.
The most exciting news is definitely point 3 and 4. It gives us the exciting prospect that GoldenEye and PilotWings might just make it to the console. Also, Kojima is a genious. What kind of ideas can HE, a true game designer, come up with when our lame ideas seem intriguing already. More importantly, that rumor about Kojima and Miyamoto working on a horror project together just might turn out to be true. Miyamoto saw the potential of the GC controller in a "scary" type of game (Luigi's Mansion), imagine what he could do with the NRC.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 09, 2005, 12:57:40 PM
We said the same thing about the switch from cartridges to GC discs. Nintendo isn't the issue here. The issue is with bloatware makers like EA providing inferior ports because they're inefficient with space. The issue is these crappy ports making the Cube look inferior. Obviously we don't want that to happen on the Rev.
But with 9GB and MS having the exact same size I think this is good enough. If EA goes crazy and starts using whole Blu Ray discs then the X360 is screwed too so it's not as bad. I think Nintendo made the Cube discs too small but in this case I think they're doing the right thing. There's a point where providing more space is excessive. I think Sony was right on the money with the appropriate size last gen but this next gen they're being excessive to the point where Nintendo doesn't have to follow them.
Post by: IceCold on November 09, 2005, 01:24:13 PM
What he said about downloading for two pounds was just an off-hand remark; nothing to take seriously.
Good news about the 3rd parties, even though they'd be crazy not to allow their games to be there.
Trailers, demos, etc sounds really exciting. I hope they implement these types of ideas to make the WiFi connection truly special.
And I said this in the other thread but then I found this one; Konami had promised "one or two flagship titles" for the Rev... unique games. But IIRC they also said they would be developing Disney Soccer for the Rev, so I'm not really holding my breath until we find out more.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 09, 2005, 01:31:51 PM
No game has been confirmed by a third party....EVER. So what the hell are you talking about. The most we know is that the creators of Killer 7 are making a game and so is Square, and now Kojima. We don't know what games they are or even when they'll be ready...
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 09, 2005, 01:35:21 PM
Post by: The Omen on November 09, 2005, 01:43:58 PM
Quote
We said the same thing about the switch from cartridges to GC discs. Nintendo isn't the issue here. The issue is with bloatware makers like EA providing inferior ports because they're inefficient with space. The issue is these crappy ports making the Cube look inferior. Obviously we don't want that to happen on the Rev.
There's two points here that I would like to make: First, the reason the GC got the inferior ports was not due to disk space, it was due to the fact that all EA games were built with the PS2 in mind.(where the money is) They were then ported to the GC and Xbox with minor graphical upgrades. As for the actual disk space being a factor, it isn't. What is a factor is memory. Those memory cards Nintendo shells out are useless(except for the 1019 which wasn't even available for years). The Xbox and Ps2 never had problems like these. Of course, EA does cut corners, but I'm just pointing out that a lot of this is dictated by market share and Nintendo's own unwillingness to offer solutions.
Now, about Merricks statements, the one I find most intiguing is "The usual suspects". I suspect we'll be looking at the original core of the NES, which contained Konami, Capcom, Square/Enix ect/ Not so sure about Sega. I could see Sega offering up their games to the highest bidder, and I think MS would love to offer Sega classics exclusively for their download service. Afterall, a lot of Xbox owners are disgruntled Sega fans who couldn't stomach buying a Nintendo product (though then one has to wonder why Sega games sell like garbage).
But maybe we'll have all the Final Fantasy , Castlevania and Metal Gear games we never had on a Nintendo system before.
Post by: OptimusPrime on November 10, 2005, 03:25:42 AM
Blu-ray and HD-DVD doesn't seem to it either.
Possible format: diagonal burned dvd's. Some time ago i saw a article (very long ago, so don't have a link sorry) about some mod-guys making a diagonal cd-burner and what gives, if you burn the holes diagonal you can fit way more on the disk (space beteen the lines get thinner), then they tried it with a DVD-burner and they could fit 40 gb of data on a normal dvd.
So we have a near impossible to copy medium that can fit tons of data and uses existing technology but applied differently...sounds very Nintendo now does it (except the tons of data), fits the giving hints too...
Post by: KDR_11k on November 10, 2005, 04:36:05 AM
Probably modified DVD9s or perhaps even a BRD derivative. Since a modified BRD isn't a BRD Merrick would still be correct.
Post by: iMoron on November 10, 2005, 09:54:14 AM
The thing about:
Quote
Possible format: diagonal burned dvd's. Some time ago i saw a article (very long ago, so don't have a link sorry) about some mod-guys making a diagonal cd-burner and what gives, if you burn the holes diagonal you can fit way more on the disk (space beteen the lines get thinner), then they tried it with a DVD-burner and they could fit 40 gb of data on a normal dvd.
So we have a near impossible to copy medium that can fit tons of data and uses existing technology but applied differently...sounds very Nintendo now does it (except the tons of data), fits the giving hints too...
I think you are confuce with that, at least I think you are mixing things up a bit... You are probably confuse with the new Perpendicular Hard Drives which store the data on vertical (standig uprigt, perpendicular) position, instead of vertical (flat, horizontal) position... Look at it like if you had a bunch of pensils... you can get many more pensils verticaly than horizontaly (asuming you can't stack them one on top of an other)...
Then again, I have heard of some tecnologies, like holographic recording... so maybe that posible format you mention does exist... if you remember where you got the info from don't forget to link to it! That said... I don't think they will use that... but who knows!
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 10, 2005, 10:07:27 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 10, 2005, 11:26:30 AM
I think up to $5 would be reasonable for most good NES games. We as hardcore gamers know how to get it cheaper, but the casual consumers will look at it and I think they will consider that a decent price. It's still about 10% of the cost of a new game, and maybe 20% of the cost of a used game or a "Greatest Hits" game, and you don't need to find an old NES to play it!
I don't know about other cities, but in Calgary, used games older than N64 are hard to find, we basically have a few specialty stores that will charge you up to $60 for used games that aren't even that rare. I know someone who bought Super Mario RPG for $100 last week! We're not a small city, either, so I'm betting a lot of other places are in the same situation. Going online is a good way to find cheap used games (unless they're very rare and in high demand), but I don't think casual gamers are interested enough to do that most of the time.
I will admit one thing, it is a ripoff if you're thinking of it in terms of "backwards compatibility". With a PS3, you should be able to play almost any PSX game you own for free, Sony won't charge you another $10 for it. Even so, I think it's fair for Nintendo to charge a few bucks.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 10, 2005, 11:37:00 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 10, 2005, 11:46:52 AM
Ideally Nintendo could release it about two years in so that they can sell a few downloads to people who already have the old games first (the NES will get a lot of this since the hardware is so damn unreliable these days). It's not the nicest thing to do but from a business standpoint it makes sense. Personally I would just like the option to play all my old games without cluttering up my entertainment centre. The only way to truly allow that would be to have some sort of hardware adapter. Even if you, for some dumb reason, buy and download all the games you already own again there's going to be some games that just aren't available that you might have (Battletoads is a big question mark for example).
At some point I think GB/GBC downloads should become available. The DS can only play GBA games so once the GBA gets phased out that would be an ideal way to make sure those games are still available. Plus it's not like you can find new copies of Metroid II anymore.
Post by: odifiend on November 10, 2005, 12:26:03 PM
. I think emulation is fine and as for games that may not be downloadable if you are so otaku about it, just break out your old system.
Post by: KnowsNothing on November 10, 2005, 12:32:31 PM
Quote
It's not the nicest thing to do but from a business standpoint it makes sense.
I find it hard to believe that if Nintendo were to do this you wouldn't go on a few long rants about it.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 10, 2005, 07:21:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: iMoron
A British (1) pound is about $1.50... Aple is getting extra over there, fo which they have been critisice before! Also an (1) Euro is about $1.30... I haven't check the curent exchange rates but those nombers are close.
The thing about:Quote
Possible format: diagonal burned dvd's. Some time ago i saw a article (very long ago, so don't have a link sorry) about some mod-guys making a diagonal cd-burner and what gives, if you burn the holes diagonal you can fit way more on the disk (space beteen the lines get thinner), then they tried it with a DVD-burner and they could fit 40 gb of data on a normal dvd.
So we have a near impossible to copy medium that can fit tons of data and uses existing technology but applied differently...sounds very Nintendo now does it (except the tons of data), fits the giving hints too...
I think you are confuce with that, at least I think you are mixing things up a bit... You are probably confuse with the new Perpendicular Hard Drives which store the data on vertical (standig uprigt, perpendicular) position, instead of vertical (flat, horizontal) position... Look at it like if you had a bunch of pensils... you can get many more pensils verticaly than horizontaly (asuming you can't stack them one on top of an other)...
Then again, I have heard of some tecnologies, like holographic recording... so maybe that posible format you mention does exist... if you remember where you got the info from don't forget to link to it! That said... I don't think they will use that... but who knows!
I think he was talking about
VMD (Versatile Multilayer Disc)
Quote
Versatile Multilayer Disc is similar to DVD9 in that it is a multilayer technology. It is an advanced optical disc that enables mobile storage to be realized at unprecedented price-to-performance levels; far beyond the realm of existing DVD technology, it quadruples DVD storage capacity with no disruption or cost penalty to consumers, content providers or manufacturers.
"NME's multilayer disc offers the possibility to achieve capacities equivalent to 'next generation' blue laser based discs such as Blu-ray - i.e. up to 50GB - using the red laser technology employed by today's DVDs. The discs can also be played on standard DVD-R drives with only minor modifications."
We can offer the consumer and media industry a 40GB VMD disc that performs and features all aspects of DVD9 for a very similar price to a 8.5GB DVD9."
"With only a small software change to existing drives, which our partners have already agreed to incorporate, and full backward compatibility, it makes the decision to adopt very easy for all parties. In my opinion it is a 'no brainer' and a 'slam dunk' proposition."
This is using existing technology (including your current DVD drives/players) in a different way. But as much as I would be relieved to hear Nintendo using this I would be even more shocked that they were actually using it.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 11, 2005, 04:29:21 AM
This is the most likely of candidates, or at least the thinking behind it will most likely come into play. It makes sense that it has to be a DVD because of the ability to play DVDs and GC disks on the REV (I'm sure the attachement to play DVD's only unlocks the player and not completely modifies it). I doubt Nintendo would make the same "mistake" they made this gen and go with a plain old DVD, which was used this gen, so it is safe to assume that they'll at least go DVD9, or with a propriety DVD.
Either way, the capacity will match the 360. Nintendo isn't the type to over-supply, so a propriety DVD that has about the same capacity as a DVD9 disk is the most plausible solution.
On that note, why are we still talking about this?
Post by: cubist on November 11, 2005, 12:02:34 PM
I think Nintendo needs to learn that they can't keep going forward with their N64-like approach to the type of medium used to play this game. The cartridge is the reason why Nintendo lost the marketshare and that's the bottom line. The GCN disc apparently is still too small for most game developers to cram all of their ideas into it. THQ was the most recent victim of this with DOR2. I also didn't like the fact that I had to get up and change my discs every 5 seconds for sports games like EA's Tiger Woods 2003.
Even the next generation is already experiencing third-party developer complaints with the XBOX 360. I think it was a recent interview that J. Allard had with IGN that caused him to come out and be a bit critical about how third-parties aren't using their tools efficiently. I'll post the link later. As games become more complex, I'm sure Nintendo can come up with a medium these days that'll hold enough (and then some) for developers to run wild and be more comfortable.
Post by: NotSoStu on November 11, 2005, 02:50:00 PM
FEAR is 4.6GB. And it's barely compressed.
Black and White 2 is only 3GB.
Battlefield 2 is 1.9GB.
Half-Life 2 is 3.5GB.
These are some of the largest and best looking games out, and you know what? There's no real need yet to make the move to DVD9, nevermind Blu-Ray.
Post by: zakkiel on November 11, 2005, 03:43:14 PM
QuoteThat's a... new explanation. I haven't heard that anyone had trouble fitting games onto the cartridges, and they had no loading times. Can you elaborate?
The cartridge is the reason why Nintendo lost the marketshare and that's the bottom line.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 11, 2005, 03:44:31 PM
Post by: bustin98 on November 11, 2005, 05:31:55 PM
But Nintendo prefers in game cinematics as to FMV, which cuts down on space requirements and lessens the feeling of being pulled from the game experience by the difference in on-screen quality.
Nintendo choose carts over cd because of load times. They failed to realize that an annoyance of load times is compensated by the features presented by the cd format.
One question that can be asked of this coming generation - is framerate issues an annoyance that is compensated by the features of high resolution? Looking at it that way, I believe frame rate issues will cause game playing issues, while loading screens only removed the immersion factor.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 11, 2005, 05:36:46 PM
Wrong, wrong, and WRONG...People are misinformed on this...The reason Square left was because there was a LOT of tension between their head and Yamauchi...Square did a LOT of software bloating to make it seem like FFVII was much too big for cartridges, because Square was behind the Sony philosophy that "more discs so the game is better"...I mean come on, Square used WAV files for the music! WAV FILES!
Post by: cubist on November 11, 2005, 07:45:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Here's one game specifically unable to fit on a cart - Final Fantasy 7. It's the reason Square jumped ship.
Wrong, wrong, and WRONG...People are misinformed on this...The reason Square left was because there was a LOT of tension between their head and Yamauchi...Square did a LOT of software bloating to make it seem like FFVII was much too big for cartridges, because Square was behind the Sony philosophy that "more discs so the game is better"...I mean come on, Square used WAV files for the music! WAV FILES!
I disagree. When I was working retail about a decade ago before Final Fantasy VII was released, the N64 was outselling the PSX from month to month. I knew it because I monitored the sales of all consoles by looking at a nationwide database of a major videogame retailer. I was (and still is) a loyal Nintendo fan and I thought the N64 would take over just like the SNES. However, when Final Fantasy VII hit the scene with its gorgeous CG FMV, the PSX would go on to outsell the N64. The only way the N64 was ever able to outsell a PSX on a given week was when there was a shortage of PSX's.
More examples for you Bill. Sports games for the PSX were better because of the added storage space. Once NFL Gameday was able to upgrade to running polygons, it became a much better sports game along with all of the commentary. The ability to point out player names and having more to say than just "BOOM", "What a tackle", "Number 8 throws the ball", OR "Touchdown" without having to worry about having enough space to fit in-game speech. It was so bad that we were surprised at how much voice work Starfox 64. As a matter of fact, Nintendo fans (including myself) were bragging about how much voice acting was in Starfox 64...that was really pathetic. Before someone points out that in-game speech was never a Nintendo necessity, then why did they try to put it in the game instead of the "bleeps" and "boops" of the original SNES title. Hell, they allowed it for Banjo Kazooie and even the GCN's Animal Crossing. WTF!
The cartridge medium also cost Nintendo all of the third-party support it enjoyed from the SNES era because it was too expensive compared to CDs. Major companies like Konami, Capcom, Enix, and EA found the PSX a much better investment with the larger installed base, cheaper medium (CD's), and more storage space to load their FMV crap.
I did hear that the Squaresoft and Nintendo executives had a falling out. I'm not sure, but I think I may still have a hardcopy of Next Generation magazine that shows that the falling out happened after Squaresoft moved their Final Fantasy series over to Sony's Playstation because Square's developers touted that they had ordered Silicon Graphics tools to create their beautiful CG sequences and pre-rendered backgrounds. Let me get back to you on that hardcopy so I can cite the references.
Yet, regardless if this falling out happened before or after Squaresoft jumped ship, you can't ignore the fact that Nintendo messed up with their decision to go with the cartridges...in retrospect. Despite all of the groundbreaking games that were available for the N64 (some of the greatest of all time), the lower storage capacity of the cartridge was the sole reason why Nintendo is where it is today.
Getting back to topic: Nintendo should learn from the XBOX 360 developers who are complaining about the lack of space. Nintendo has heard it with their past two consoles. I hope they don't repeat their mistakes...as history has shown that they have.
Oh yeah...and the music on WAV files Bill?: I remember that Nintendo wanted to demonstrate that MIDI tracks were able to give the games dynamic music. Nintendo was bragging how RARE was demonstrating how music would change underwater or when enemies were encountered in Banjo Kazooie. My only problem was that while that was great for the 5 seconds that I noticed it, there wasn't enough space to put out a decent MIDI game soundtrack with plenty of variation. Turok, anyone?
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 11, 2005, 07:52:27 PM
And I still say space was never a problem (this extra space on CDs being used for useless FMV)...It was cost...
Post by: cubist on November 11, 2005, 07:55:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
Whoa, why'd you bring up so much stuff? The only point I was trying to make was that Square didn't leave Ninty because of cartridges...It was much more than that...(and it was not only WAV files but bitmaps too in FFVII...)
And I still say space was never a problem (this extra space on CDs being used for useless FMV)...It was cost...
LOL...sorry about the novel...I just had nothing better to do.
Post by: Kairon on November 11, 2005, 10:54:41 PM
*shrug* Heck, Zelda on the 64 wouldn't have been possible if they'd gone with CDs at that juncture. I personally feel that that is simply too high a price to pay just to wear a couple of moneyhats, especially to the man who embodies Nintendo, Shigeru Miyamoto, who is most likely still making a non-extravagant Japanese employee's salary.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Kairon on November 11, 2005, 11:06:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: bustin98
HOne question that can be asked of this coming generation - is framerate issues an annoyance that is compensated by the features of high resolution? Looking at it that way, I believe frame rate issues will cause game playing issues, while loading screens only removed the immersion factor.
I think you can't say that monied next-gen games will have frame rate issues. I doubt a company (with the sole exception of Rare) will ever gun for HD graphics at the expense of framerate. They can always just tone down the graphical load they need to output if they ever find themselves in frame rate city.
But again, that's the thing. To pursue these next-gen graphics with HD support and the PS3's 120 FPS - okay, so they won't use that as a standard, lol, more like 60 FPS standard - they'll need to pump money into their graphics budget. It will certainly drive up development costs to some extent, and in truth, it really starts to look like diminishing returns if this is the main thrust of what makes the next generation better than the first.
The question, I believe, is actually not about what consumers will think, its what developers will think. Will most developers see the Rev as a viable and appealing alternative to next-gen game progression, or will they all decide that the benefits of higher framerates and resolutions outweighs the higher development costs, competitiveness and monetary risk that come with them.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: zakkiel on November 12, 2005, 05:30:28 AM
QuotePost hoc ergo propter hoc, much?
I was (and still is) a loyal Nintendo fan and I thought the N64 would take over just like the SNES. However, when Final Fantasy VII hit the scene with its gorgeous CG FMV, the PSX would go on to outsell the N64.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 14, 2005, 07:08:48 AM
It was more like both. Technically you could make a cartridge big enough to hold the same amount of space as a CD but it would cost a fortune. CDs had more storage for a lower price so it was both.
Plus FMV being "useless" is an opinion, not fact. If I wanted to make a game on the N64 with FMV or CD quality audio I was sh!t out of luck. You can say "well FMV is useless" but not everyone feels that way and a third party should be given an incredible amount of flexibility from the console maker. Really it was Nintendo's "we decide what's best for everyone" dictator attitude that cost them the third parties. Cartridges were the catalyst. It was the point where Nintendo's inflexibility went from being an acceptable annoyance to a major restriction and extra expense.
But anyone who doesn't think that cartridges totally screwed over the N64 is a delusional fanboy. It was one the dumbest decisions ever made by a successful console maker. Atari's self-destruction is about the only thing I would put above it.
Post by: ShyGuy on November 14, 2005, 08:50:39 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 14, 2005, 08:58:18 AM
Post by: Kairon on November 14, 2005, 01:58:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian SaneBut anyone who doesn't think that cartridges totally screwed over the N64 is a delusional fanboy. It was one the dumbest decisions ever made by a successful console maker. Atari's self-destruction is about the only thing I would put above it.
I think everyone can agree that cartridges were the major reason that Nintendo lost market leadership in the 32/64 bit era.
But this is a very complex "mistake" in that cartridges are the sole reason that Miyamoto was able to create games like Mario 64 and Zelda
oT. He's even stated that these masterpieces of gaming, which are still used today as yardsticks for everything from game control to comera control to content, would be impossible without the fast loading times of the cartridge.Very few people dispute the fact that cartridges drove away third parties, but the much more relevant question is whether Nintendo would've been able to make Nintendo quality games at all if they had moved to a 2X (2 speed) CD drive. If the N64 had been CD based, then Miyamoto would never have been able to make Mario 64, or Zelda: OoT. Nintendo games would be vastly different, and who knows whether they'd even be as acclaimed as they are today.
The key dilemma of this issue is NOT whether Nintendo blundered when they chose carts over CDs, but whether Nintendo even had a choice in the matter with Miyamoto's drive towards the best games he could possibly make: Nintendo games. Even now Nintendo goes with small 1.5 GB discs touted as providing load times that are fast enough for Miyamoto's tastes, despite the competition having 4.7 GB discs.
Is Miyamoto to blame for the N64's downfall? Or...more interestingly, when Nintendo decided to make Mario 64, which defined 3D gaming, was at least 5 years ahead of all competition, and is touted as one of the best games ever made... when Nintendo made this pinnacle of Nintendo gaming...did they sacrifice the market to do so?
And if so, was it worth it?
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Ian Sane on November 14, 2005, 02:03:51 PM
"And if so, was it worth it?"
I think it depends on whether or not Nintendo can increase market share with a console for a change. If they continually lose market share each gen eventually they would have to drop out as a console maker. We don't know yet if the N64 was the beginning of the end unless we reach the end with Nintendo never again having a really strong position in the market. That's how we can prove it wasn't worth it. Logically I don't see how we can ever prove it DID.
Post by: Kairon on November 14, 2005, 02:32:28 PM
But this question, I believe, should be at the core of what a Nintendo Fan soul-searches for.
Is the very reason that Nintendo is so big, Shigeru Miyamoto, the very reason why Nintendo will never be number one again?
Is everything we love about Nintendo games everything that has the potential to hold us back financially in the future?
Do we trust and allow this man, Miyamoto, to continue experimenting and making the best games he can?
Do we trust him to have so much artistic influence in this company that is in a very competitive business?
Mario 64 and Zelda 64, among the best games of all time; are having these games in existence more important than having marketshare?
Is letting Miyamoto take risks to create the next Mario 64 worth not having marketshare?
Is letting Nintendo be Nintendo worth not having marketshare?
Conditional answers just don't work here, it has to be a straight yes or no. This is because these questions are asking Nintendo fans how they beleive the company should approach the future, and you cannot place conditions on a course of action because you cannot know the end result. You can only evaluate the subject, review past performances, and deliver a verdict.
As for it being answered definitively, only Miyamoto knows that. Only Miyamoto knows all the factors involved in the final equation and only he can know just how much Nintendo lost for how much Nintendo achieved.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: Jensen on November 14, 2005, 11:35:33 PM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
But this is a very complex "mistake" in that cartridges are the sole reason that Miyamoto was able to create games like Mario 64 and Zelda
Very few people dispute the fact that cartridges drove away third parties, but the much more relevant question is whether Nintendo would've been able to make Nintendo quality games at all if they had moved to a 2X (2 speed) CD drive. If the N64 had been CD based, then Miyamoto would never have been able to make Mario 64, or Zelda: OoT. Nintendo games would be vastly different, and who knows whether they'd even be as acclaimed as they are today.
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Mario 64 is 8 megabytes. The whole game could be copied to system ram in 27 seconds (with a 2x drive)... and only parts of it need to be loaded for each level.
Zelda : OoT is bigger at 32 megabytes. 110 seconds. If you streamed textures as you got to them, there would be no problem.
The games would be almost identical on CD-ROM.
Post by: Kairon on November 15, 2005, 04:46:33 AM
~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com
Post by: mantidor on November 15, 2005, 05:12:14 AM
Post by: darknight06 on November 15, 2005, 05:22:26 AM
And another thing, the PS1 cannot stream. If it could stream then load times would be similar to the Dreamcast Marvel VS. games where characters and backgrounds were loaded up as you selected them not once the CD could stop spinning for music. Besides, I like my Mario without load time. Having to wait 25 seconds just to start a stage would've made me throw a fit back then.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on November 15, 2005, 09:20:22 AM
Post by: Jensen on November 15, 2005, 09:48:22 AM
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Originally posted by: mantidor
Besides, how is that PS games load so much then? and it is not the fmvs. Even small games took way longer than just 110 seconds of loading time if you sum them up. I think its not as simple as just "load the whole game in ram and play it".
Huh? I was saying 110 seconds total for a 32 Megabyte game. PS games could be up to 650 MB, which would give 37 minutes of load time.
Post by: cubist on November 15, 2005, 10:22:47 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on November 16, 2005, 06:12:15 AM
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Originally posted by: Kairon
Is the very reason that Nintendo is so big, Shigeru Miyamoto, the very reason why Nintendo will never be number one again?
Err, yes and no. I believe Miyamoto may be holding Nintendo back with his love of unusual and non-violent game concepts, but I think there are plenty of other people at the company that share his vision, so it's not all his "fault". Also, there's no guarantee that Nintendo would suddenly be number one if Miyamoto was restricted. Finally, I tend to agree with recent arguments that the videogame industry is eroding and will eventually fail if it stays on its current path, so even if Miyamoto doesn't lead Nintendo to number one again, I think he's Nintendo's best chance to lead the company away from certain doom.
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Is everything we love about Nintendo games everything that has the potential to hold us back financially in the future?
No. Only certain things that we love about Nintendo games have the potential to hold Nintendo back in the future, and different people love different things about Nintendo. A lot of Nintendo fans seem to be against excessive violence and gore, yet other Nintendo fans are probably sad that the company tries to avoid anything adult and leaves it up to second or third parties to develop more "mature" titles. I actually think Nintendo's policies with third parties are holding it back more than any aspect of its games, though.
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Do we trust and allow this man, Miyamoto, to continue experimenting and making the best games he can?
Oh yes! Miyamoto's best games are often the ones where he's experimenting. At the same time, I think Nintendo should be working hard to find people to replace Miyamoto since he won't be around forever, and it seems like that is the route it's following, with Miyamoto overlooking many projects and having less direct control over most of them.
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Do we trust him to have so much artistic influence in this company that is in a very competitive business?
Yes. This goes back to the idea that the industry is eroding. I think Miyamoto and other creative folks at Nintendo are the company's best chance of expanding into new territory, and keeping existing fans from losing interest.
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Mario 64 and Zelda 64, among the best games of all time; are having these games in existence more important than having marketshare?
For me, yes. I'm skeptical that they couldn't have been made on a disc system, but personally, I loved the N64 and from a pure gaming standpoint, I'm glad that Nintendo went with cartridges.
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Is letting Miyamoto take risks to create the next Mario 64 worth not having marketshare?
Yes...er....no...er...yes. Only if that game has the same potential to earn marketshare. Of course, we can't know if it does or not, but going by Nintendo's strategy and Miyamoto's track record, I'd say it does have that potential.
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Is letting Nintendo be Nintendo worth not having marketshare?
No. Why do I answer yes to the last and no to this one? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Nintendo doesn't stand to gain anything by staying the way it is, looking at the trend, it only stands to lose.
I think for the new direction Nintendo is going in, a lot of these things that were weaknesses for it in the past will be strengths. Maybe the new direction will fail miserably. If I could ask Nintendo to do one thing, it would be to do as much as possible to please third parties without compromising its own vision. For example, if that meant going with an open disc format that could be pirated, I'd say go for it. It's not going to affect Nintendo's games, it's just going to mean losing a few sales, which would be worth it if we got twice as much third party support. I think in reality, Nintendo would resist a change like that with every fibre of it's being.
Edit: changed answers to last two questions.
