Post by: Famicom on May 31, 2005, 05:49:38 PM
Microsoft senior vice president and chief Xbox officer Robert J. Bach
"The other two companies' presentations [at E3] weren't surprising. Sony's [PS3's] capabilities are the same as ours. Nintendo is aiming for the niche market [with its Revolution]. The current-generation Xbox sold more than the PlayStation 2 in North America last Christmas. We will become the market leader with our next-generation console."
Ken Kutaragi, Sony Computer Entertainment president
"Beating us for a short moment is like accidentally winning a point from a Shihan (Karate master), and Microsoft is still not a black belt. Just like with their operating systems, they might come out with something good around the third generation of their release."
"This time, ours [the PS3] will be like a BMW that's equipped with a Ferrari engine. Nintendo's [Revolution] will be something like a new model of a family car. Some people might want it, but if it was me, I'd want to advance to the next level."
Satoru Iwata, Nintendo president
"Creating game software in high definition will require everything from the [graphic's] models to the background to be redone, and it will bloat up development costs. And yet, it has no use for people that aren't playing with a high-definition TV set. Game consoles are not an essential product in life, so we want to make ours as compact, thin, and as inexpensive as we can so that it won't be viewed with hostility by family members."
"There's a big gap between people that enjoy games that take time and playing skills, and people that don't. I'm feeling a real sense of danger about the decline in the Japanese gaming population. Patting a dog and telling it to stay [in Nintendogs] is something that anyone can enjoy. We're aiming to increase the population of game players with these new kinds of games."
"Nintendo is a company that likes to see smiles on the faces of people that love entertainment. We're not about selling new kinds of TVs or taking control of the living room."
Kutaragi is still insane as ever, but this wouldn't be as fun if he wasn't. I think Iwata either Jedi dodged the "What has Nintendo learned from its previous game machine release?" question, or misunderstood what was asked since he went on to discuss the DS instead of the GC. Techically yes, the DS was Ninty's last game machine release but I think Asahi wanted something concerning the Cube. Iwata didn't participate in the mudslinging contest Kutaragi is trying to start, so good for him.
Post by: Deguello on May 31, 2005, 06:06:10 PM
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Nintendo is aiming for the niche market [with its Revolution].
Yeah, that niche "profit" market, right?
Post by: Mario on May 31, 2005, 06:15:26 PM
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We will become the market leader with our next-generation console.
Hahaha, for 6 months.
Post by: KnowsNothing on May 31, 2005, 06:29:28 PM
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It isn't a bad thing to have a high price. When we released the original PlayStation at 39,800 yen ($368), Nintendo's Super Famicom was in the 10,000 yen range ($100 range).
I was not aware that the GC is in competition with the PS3 =O
So....MS is full of it. I'm still lolling over their "1 billion" goal for the 360. Ken is getting a little too smug. I really hope it bites them in the ass, and I think it will. Iwata still makes me happy because he's saying that both the systems and the games will be affordable and fun and relevant to gaming.
Sounds fine to me. I'd love to see these guys put in same room together, too. Ken and Rob would argue with each other and compare penis sizes, and Iwata would play the DS. And then Reggie would burst out of Ken and scream "MY PUPPET" and Iwata and him would sit an enjoy a nice foot-long, while Rob......leaves, or something.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on May 31, 2005, 06:38:47 PM
I'm so glad Nintendo is making something akin to an Itunes Videogame system. All I want out of my system are games. I have a laptop for my music as well as a dvd player, not to mention an IM service that I am completely happy with. That is why no other console appeals to me.
Nintendo focuses on the games, which in other words is saying they are focusing on me, the game-player. With this new way to play, and it's ability to play every single generation to date, the controller won't let me down. I wouldn't even mind if they took every positive aspect from its previous controllers and threw it together to make the REV controller.
Wireless play from the Wavebird
Comfortability of the GC controller
Slide-Click R/L buttons from the GC controller
6 face buttons from the N64 controller
Z-trigger from the N64 controller
D-pad from the SNES controller (best d-pad ever)
Add the REV aspect (no matter how ridiculous) and you have something very very accessible.
Like they say: This is Sony's generation to lose..............and Nintendo's to win.
Post by: jasonditz on May 31, 2005, 06:56:13 PM
Microsoft is increasingly like the dorky kid in high school that doesn't realize what a tool he is and keeps asking out cheerleaders. They're so close to saturation in the only market they're really targetting with the Xbox its not even funny, and they still think they're going to grow marketshare by leaps and bounds by continuing along the same path.
Post by: mantidor on May 31, 2005, 06:58:37 PM
Post by: nickmitch on May 31, 2005, 07:33:55 PM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 31, 2005, 09:02:43 PM
Iwata is making up a bunch of lame excuses for why hardware performance isn't that important. That's code for "the Rev is underpowered". Maybe it's not really but logically that's what one would interpret. It would make no sense for Nintendo to downplay the hardware if their hardware was comparable or better than the competition. They would make a big deal about being better. It would make sense to do that. So Nintendo is either hiding the fact that they're underpowered of they're really dumb and aren't doing effective damage control on the "Rev is underpowered" rumours.
Iwata should just shut up because he NEVER says anything encouraging. He has an inhuman knack for making the Revolution sound lame.
"Well, I like the 'Don't pay for crap that you're not going to use' mentality. I have an HDTV (that my Dad loves more than me) but it's not in the room where I play video games."
I don't own an HDTV either but I might want to get one in the next few years. I want that option. If Nintendo decides it's not worthwhile I'll have second thoughts about buying a Rev and I know some people will not buy a Rev just because of that. Why throw away sales for NO GOOD REASON? That sort of mentality killed the Cube. This isn't Nintendo's decision, it's MY decision. I'm pretty f*cking sick of Nintendo deciding things for me and it's becoming hard to tolerate the same bullsh!t over and over again. The market demands HDTV support. Nintendo can either match the competition for once or lose more market share. As minor as something like that would seem Nintendo has such a negative image right now that some stupid blatant oversight like that could kill the Rev right off the bat.
Post by: Deguello on May 31, 2005, 10:09:43 PM
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"This time, ours [the PS3] will be like a BMW that's equipped with a Ferrari engine. Nintendo's [Revolution] will be something like a new model of a family car. Some people might want it, but if it was me, I'd want to advance to the next level."
But but but but BMW makes family cars. And Ferrari's are ridiculously expensive and guzzle gas for no reason. Wait... what?
Post by: Don'tHate742 on May 31, 2005, 10:57:30 PM
you are definitely over-reacting...
Do you even know the REV specs yet? .....hm mmm...that's what I thought....
Post by: anubis6789 on May 31, 2005, 11:52:34 PM
What that says to me is that in all probability the REV will have some sort of HD support, even if it is "just" 480p, and that it will also have digital audio support (Dolby Digital). I would be happy if they just went up to 720p and have Dolby Digital 5.1 support.
What I think Iwata was trying to get at is that you can read all the specs for the other two systmes and there is tons off stuff that no normal person would ever get to take advantage of or see, like outputing two feeds of 1080p via HDMI ( I mean really who is ever going to do this). He also didn't directly say that the REV will not have HD capabilities.
Post by: ruby_onix on June 01, 2005, 12:18:08 AM
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I don't own an HDTV either but I might want to get one in the next few years. I want that option. If Nintendo decides it's not worthwhile I'll have second thoughts about buying a Rev and I know some people will not buy a Rev just because of that.
I'm thinking that HDTV is going to be the Achilles' Heel of the Xbox360 and the PS3 (to a lesser degree).
When you double the resolution, you basically cut the capabilities down to 1/4.
From Blu-ray.com...
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A single-layer Blu-ray Disc can hold 25GB, which can be used to record over 2 hours of HDTV or more than 13 hours of standard-definition TV.
Sure, Blu-ray can hold 13 hours of video. But it won't (at least, not with the PS3). Sony and Microsoft are really pushing the HDTV angle, making it manditory.
End result?
PS3 = 2 hours of HD video. 4 hours with dual-layering (unlikely)
Xbox360 = 30mins of HD video. 1 hour with dual-layering (extremely likely).
Revolution = 2 hours of DVD video. 4 hours with dual-layering (very likely).
And that's just the storage medium. Other things will take a hit too.
For all the talk of "the Rev's gonna be weak", the Rev may well end up giving you the biggest games with the most polys and the most cutting-edge effects.
And for $200, not $400.
Post by: RABicle on June 01, 2005, 01:02:08 AM
Post by: mantidor on June 01, 2005, 05:27:34 AM
Like, for example, force High definition in your games and make the people who dont have HDTV, the large mayority, to think twice about getting your console?
"The market demands HDTV support."
hardly, what was the percentage of HDTV users on GC? like 1% or something? the aproach of x360 and ps3 is the one who is scaring me, they are basically forcing me to buy an HDTV.
Post by: Renny on June 01, 2005, 05:56:50 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2005, 07:31:21 AM
I'm not suggesting forcing high definition for all games. I think third parties should have the option to do whatever they want. I'm against Microsoft's policy of forcing feature requirements on all Xbox 360 games. I'm just saying that Nintendo should provide the option of supporting HDTV to third parties and provide the option to consumers. There was talk in the posts above how not having the option wouldn't be a big deal and I'm saying that having the option is important.
"Do you even know the REV specs yet? .....hm mmm...that's what I thought...."
No I don't. But rumours are saying that the Rev is underpowered. It is damaging for Nintendo for such rumours to exist. They've had all these interviews to make it clear that the Rev is not underpowered but not once have they done so. Why would Nintendo not deny a negative rumour? Well the most likely reason would be that it's true.
Nintendo gave non-answers and downplayed the competition in regards to Cube online support as well and we all know why they were so dodgy and never confirmed that everything was okay.
Though it's entirely possible that the Rev was only planned to be underpowered and they're redesigning their hardware right now. Nintendo might have underestimated what Sony and MS were going to do and are giving non-answers because right now they're not sure if they can improve the hardware or not.
Post by: jasonditz on June 01, 2005, 07:57:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
No I don't. But rumours are saying that the Rev is underpowered. It is damaging for Nintendo for such rumours to exist. They've had all these interviews to make it clear that the Rev is not underpowered but not once have they done so. Why would Nintendo not deny a negative rumour? Well the most likely reason would be that it's true.
Or that they never respond to rumors.
The GC was rumored to be underpowered too, and I don't recall Nintendo stepping up to deny those either.
Post by: Caliban on June 01, 2005, 08:37:07 AM
Sony is very unsecure about their PS3, mostly because it will surely cost more than a gaming console should cost. His comments are...as RABicle mentioned, metaphorical, but they make no sense at all, he's out of his mind already. They will sell of course but won't win this battle.
Nintendo is confident, they don't care too seriously if competitors or fanboys downplay their lack of specs info. His comments are of Hokage level, true to the meaning of what they want to release and sell yet keep some secrets for later. They will sell of course and also won't win battle.
Yup, I think Nintendo and Sony will tie or be very close to each other. Microsoft can lick my boots for all I care and I still think they won't make the cut.
I did like Ken's comment about Microsoft's software even though they still haven't done much of a great job.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on June 01, 2005, 08:53:54 AM
You must realize that Nintendo has always been a modest company. They could easily tell us the REV will be awesomely powerful like Ken up there, but no. That's not how Nintendo does it. They'd rather focus on what makes the consoles different rather than compare specifications that have yet to be proven graphic-wise by any company.
One more thing, Ian. If you look in Nintendo's history, they have not once "dropped the ball" on graphics. Not only that, but the GC showed the world how Nintendo can fit power into a tiny package.
The Xbox was huge...this 360 is smaller....wouldn't it be safe to assume that even though the REV is smaller than the GC, it'll have at least the same graphical leap similar to the Xbox to 360?
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2005, 09:46:20 AM
What about the DS? Graphically it's not even comparable to the PSP. Nintendo's a bit different now. They talk about non-gamers and simple games and stuff like that. They've never launched a console with that sort of attitude. The only thing they've launched since they started speaking publicly about targeting non-gamers and such is the DS which trades off hardware power and graphics capabilities for "innovative" features. Nintendo keeps talking about "new interfaces" and stuff like that for the Rev so it wouldn't be out of character to pull a DS and release inferior hardware with a nifty control gimmick.
Post by: SgtShiversBen on June 01, 2005, 10:15:37 AM
Imagine if they took that extra 70$ and souped it up PSP style. For 150$ you'd be able to get unimaginable things that the PSP wouldn't be able to comprehend.
Also, being an architect, I follow the form follows function aspect. The DS follows the same menatility and that's what I love about it.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on June 01, 2005, 10:41:41 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane"If you look in Nintendo's history, they have not once 'dropped the ball' on graphics."
What about the DS? Graphically it's not even comparable to the PSP. Nintendo's a bit different now. They talk about non-gamers and simple games and stuff like that. They've never launched a console with that sort of attitude. The only thing they've launched since they started speaking publicly about targeting non-gamers and such is the DS which trades off hardware power and graphics capabilities for "innovative" features. Nintendo keeps talking about "new interfaces" and stuff like that for the Rev so it wouldn't be out of character to pull a DS and release inferior hardware with a nifty control gimmick.
Ok....you can't use Portables as an example for when Nintendo "dropped the ball"...
How many times did a new iteration of the GameBoy come out, only to be slightly upgraded? Now look at what they've done....they've made a GBA: Micro!
I was strictly talking about consoles, and not once have they screwed up. Nintendo artists believe in good graphics, but gameplay comes first. That doesn't mean that a game won't have beautiful water and particle effects, and I think this generation proves that. You also mention how they never had the sort of mentallity they do now. I agree with you....every new president brings his ideas to the table. You can't argue though that innovation is neccesary to next gen titles, can you? It depends on what sort of innovation (like the crap GBA connectivity), but overall it is needed. I can't speak for Nintendo, we'll have to see what simple, innovating, non-gamers all mean. Because right now, nobody knows....Still, those points have nothing to do with graphics. You don't have to sacrifice graphics or sound to make a game simple, innovative, or appealing to a non-gamer.
This new mentality isn't detrimental (sp?) to graphics as a whole, I'd be more worried about playing with a big red button =P.
Furthermore, about the DS, it wasn't as much as a trade-off as it was keeping the price down. You said it yourself, the PSP failed at launch due to it's pricing. Nintendo knows what price people are willing to pay...."cheap." That mentality as well as innovation carried the DS into fruitation.
Post by: Famicom on June 01, 2005, 10:43:36 AM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"If you look in Nintendo's history, they have not once 'dropped the ball' on graphics."
What about the DS? Graphically it's not even comparable to the PSP.
Definitely not a fair comparison to their consoles. To the contrary of their consoles, Nintendo has never had a graphical edge against their handheld competitors, and yet they still beat them all. The E3 lineup for the DS compared to PSP is looking like the same deal all over again. But that's not the point of the question.
Despite all the recent doublespeak, I fully expect the Rev to be at least comparable if not better than the competition graphically IN GAMES, where it counts the most. But I don't expect Nintendo to play up that (potential) fact, since they never have, and probably never will.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2005, 10:50:59 AM
Nope. I agree that innovation is necessary. But how innovation is achieved is what's important. Nintendo can potentially offer more flexibility for innovation with more powerful hardware than they can with a slightly souped up Gamecube with a gimmicky controller. Hardware isn't just for graphics. It allows for more characters on screen at a time and better AI and better physics and larger worlds. All of those contribute to innovation and to gameplay. Innovation is not universally good (as you pointed out with the GBA connectivity stuff). Innovation should expand and improve and built on what already exists, not merely be different. If they sacrifice hardware performance and use some new controller to make up for it they aren't innovating in the good way. They're not offering an improvement then, they're just doing something different.
Edit: I thought of something in regards to the "portables don't count" arguement. The Gameboy may have always been behind but at the time of release it was cutting edge. Nintendo didn't know that the Game Gear, Lynx, or NGPC were going to come out when they released their other portables. They DID however know that the PSP was coming out and had a pretty good idea of what to expect. They intentionally chose to not match the PSP hardware. With the other portables Nintendo just released whatever and then competitors specfically designed their portables to have better hardware.
Post by: ThePerm on June 01, 2005, 03:26:20 PM
also, the revolution might not get the msotyp owerful processor...but it will most likely have a very awesome gpu. This generation the gpu is more important than the cpu. If you think about it....physics, data processing, ai, their all done on the cpu....but no one ever tells the cpu to make the graphics..they will use the gpu because its much more efficient.
There is also rumors that rev will have an individual physics and sound processor...which would take a load off the cpu and make the system even more efficient.
Post by: jasonditz on June 01, 2005, 03:47:10 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on June 01, 2005, 05:42:43 PM
Post by: Deguello on June 01, 2005, 06:06:24 PM
Post by: ThePerm on June 01, 2005, 06:09:05 PM
Post by: Deguello on June 01, 2005, 06:26:06 PM
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/10/2339234
(lol slashdot)
Post by: jasonditz on June 01, 2005, 06:49:01 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 01, 2005, 06:54:00 PM
bringing back FMV to games again? or will we see movie ads that say "coming soon to DVD, PSP and DS!!"?
64DD games re-born?
Post by: KnowsNothing on June 01, 2005, 06:55:47 PM
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When Matrix moves to 90nm process technology, it should be possible to manufacture a 8Gb memory chip on a reasonable sized (i.e. cheap) die.
I believe that 8Gb = approximatley 1 GB. I'm pretty sure that they've already done it too. The price is really the only issue here.
Edit: Nevermind
Post by: slacker on June 01, 2005, 07:16:57 PM
Post by: jasonditz on June 01, 2005, 07:40:10 PM
Post by: slacker on June 01, 2005, 08:32:04 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on June 01, 2005, 10:24:05 PM
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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You can't argue though that innovation is neccesary to next gen titles, can you?"
Nope. I agree that innovation is necessary. But how innovation is achieved is what's important. Nintendo can potentially offer more flexibility for innovation with more powerful hardware than they can with a slightly souped up Gamecube with a gimmicky controller. Hardware isn't just for graphics. It allows for more characters on screen at a time and better AI and better physics and larger worlds. All of those contribute to innovation and to gameplay. Innovation is not universally good (as you pointed out with the GBA connectivity stuff). Innovation should expand and improve and built on what already exists, not merely be different. If they sacrifice hardware performance and use some new controller to make up for it they aren't innovating in the good way. They're not offering an improvement then, they're just doing something different.
Edit: I thought of something in regards to the "portables don't count" arguement. The Gameboy may have always been behind but at the time of release it was cutting edge. Nintendo didn't know that the Game Gear, Lynx, or NGPC were going to come out when they released their other portables. They DID however know that the PSP was coming out and had a pretty good idea of what to expect. They intentionally chose to not match the PSP hardware. With the other portables Nintendo just released whatever and then competitors specfically designed their portables to have better hardware.
True, but what are you arguing about now? Is it that Nintendo needs to not be different, or is it that Nintendo will be reluctant to put in great hardware for graphics?
If its the second, then I had already told you why they won't be reluctant (remember, the whole "dropping the ball" argument).
If its the first, then I'll ask you a question: can they not do be both innovative (in the way you mean it) and different? Nintendo can build on top of the old, make AI and physics more enjoyable, and innovate that way, but why can't they offer at the same time a different way of utilizing this new technology? I understand that it would be terrible if you could only develope games using the "different way" with Nintendo ignoring those who want flexibility, but Reggie already calmed our "what if its a big button" nerves by telling us it'll play every generation thus far.
In conclusion, by looking at the past and using the information that Nintendo has given us, I can say the following things about the REV:
1. It will have a graphical prowness similar to the Xbox 360.
2. It's controller, which may be quirky and "innovative", allows for every type of game to be played.
3. The console may not provide state-of-the-art outputs, nor MP3's or HD movies, but what will be there is top quality.
4. It'll be online with free first party downloadable games.
Nintendo, in my book, has matched the competition on all my points of worry. Graphics, Controller, Online....what else is there to worry about?
Don't you dare say games.....
Post by: jasonditz on June 02, 2005, 06:49:19 AM
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Originally posted by: slacker
I knew the wind waker was using some major graphical power, but will the casual gamer who look at it and then at a game with graphics similar to MGS2 or RE4 and say its on par in terms of sheer graphical power? I think not...but that's just me.
I don't know what most people look for in graphics, but the PS2 game one of my friends couldn't shut up about is DBZ: Budokai. That is, until I showed him the significantly better cel-shading on the GC version.
Cel-shading might not be everyone's cup of tea, but its visually impressive. The only people I've heard really badmouth it are teenagers that don't want anything that looks like a cartoon because they figure it'll turn them into homosexuals or something.
Post by: couchmonkey on June 02, 2005, 09:00:16 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 02, 2005, 09:24:22 AM
When you double the resolution, you basically cut the capabilities down to 1/4.
Bull. The only thing that goes up is the fillrate requirement and few games nowadays are fillrate limited. The transformations, lighting, physics, gamelogic, etc. don't increase in complexity. Try looking at ANY graphics cards review, the FPS numbers drop only slightly as the resolution increases. Especially the transformation stuff is nasty, I've heard that you can't do more than perhaps twenty bones per character with current gen consoles.
couchmonkey: Well, Celshading IS easier to do, at least the art assets. It's hard on the coders but damn easy for the artists.
Post by: mantidor on June 02, 2005, 10:43:14 AM
Post by: Shecky on June 02, 2005, 04:07:32 PM
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Originally posted by: mantidor
I disagree. Reading the transcript from the latest NP interview with the art director of TP he is really proud of what they acomplished with the moblins in the Wind Waker, and seeing the game we can see that there was a lot of work put in not inly designing the moblins, but also the animation because this one should not be realistic, but cartoony, and thats a lot more tough to acomplish.
The enemies in WW were fantastic... I kind of wish that the humanoids (including Link) had more detail though... their clothing was all a bit too .... "flat"
The moblins really were a work of art though.
Post by: couchmonkey on June 03, 2005, 01:28:02 PM
As far as development goes, I imagine you're right about making things easier for artists.
Post by: jasonditz on June 03, 2005, 03:37:11 PM
The DBZ fan who sits down and plays Budokai sees something a lot more authentic looking than, eg. those Simpsons 3D games.
Interesting case study: when I was at a Walmart a couple years back I recall the Ps2 demo system sitting there with the visually very realistic GT4 completely ignored while a bunch of kids were lined up around the Gamecube commenting how "cool" the Ultimate Muscle game looked.
Post by: Stimutacs Addict on June 04, 2005, 01:27:55 PM
Post by: Deguello on June 05, 2005, 06:18:50 AM
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"This time, ours [the PS3] will be like a BMW that's equipped with a Ferrari engine. Nintendo's [Revolution] will be something like a new model of a family car. Some people might want it, but if it was me, I'd want to advance to the next level."
This really is a piss poor analogy is YET ANOTHER way. BMW and Ferrari are not the market leaders. Ford is (I think, or GM). BMW and Ferrari are... NICHE, in the auto market.
Post by: jasonditz on June 05, 2005, 06:59:11 AM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on June 05, 2005, 08:25:07 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 07, 2005, 08:39:56 AM
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 07, 2005, 10:51:39 AM
Post by: slacker on June 07, 2005, 06:09:11 PM
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Originally posted by: VGrevolution
I think it is quite unfair to compare something like Zelda: WW with RE4, they have two drastically different graphical schemes. Zelda is more expansive with more on the screen, while RE4 is more condensed in comparison. It is like comparing something like Fight Night Round 2 with RE4, if you took the detail of the models FNR2 beats RE4 easily, but that is only because the game is more condensed and thus can use more detailed graphical models. Personally I am more impressed with Zelda: TP than RE4 since it appears Zelda is going to do alot more with the graphics than RE4 did since Zelda has always been about exploration.
I definitely agree that its unfair to compare Zelda: WW to RE4 due the the diverging graphical style. One is intentionally aiming to look like a cartoon of sort and the other is aiming for more of a realistic look. My point was that the casual gamers look at the two games and in his/her mind think RE4 requires a lot of horse power. Its perception. We can take a poll and have uninformed casual gamers make the call. My bet is that the majority will prefer RE4's graphics over Zelda: WW. Its one of the reason the new Zelda is the way it is.
Post by: jasonditz on June 07, 2005, 06:22:52 PM
Post by: SgtShiversBen on June 09, 2005, 02:43:01 PM
Sorry if it's breaking the rules, but this really pisses me off:Impress PC Watch: The PlayStation 3 has some extremely high specifications, but it doesn't come with a HDD. Why?
Ken Kutaragi: We're not going to equip [the PS3 with] a HDD by default, because no matter how much [capacity] we put in it, it won't be enough. The next step is definitely network drives. With the Cell server, they can be accessed from anywhere, via network. Whether it's your own house, your friend's house, you can access the [network hard drive] anywhere. That's the kind of world we're imagining. But there are still some issues if the machine doesn't come with a HDD. So this time, we've added a 2.5 inch HDD bay so that users can equip HDDs such as 80GB and 120GB, even though that's still not enough [capacity]. Although a network drive would allow for terabytes of storage, there's still the necessity to run an operating system offline. A hard drive for running an OS will be required for [the PS3] to be recognized as a computer.
IPCW: Do you mean to say that you'll run an OS on the PS3 to use it as a computer?
KK: I believe its wrong that, while we've been calling PlayStations "computers," Nintendo, which is in our same business, keeps telling the world their consoles are "toys." So even though we're making something that has the capability to be recognized as a supercomputer and requires paperwork when exporting or importing, the government sees it as a "toy." The PlayStation 2 has something as great as the Emotion Engine, and it can even run Linux, but it's still considered a gaming machine. I thought that the situation would become better since Microsoft appeared [in the gaming industry] from the IT field. But they won't say it either, since they want to protect their business. They see problems if the Xbox could run Windows, so they keep calling the Xbox a "game machine." It is really a pain in the neck. This time, we're positioning the PS3 as a "supercomputer." But people won't recognize it as a computer unless we call it a computer, so we're going to run an OS on it. In fact, the Cell can run multiple OSes. In order to run the OSes, we need a HDD. So in order to declare that the PS3 is a computer, I think we'll have [the PS3's HDD] pre-installed with Linux as a bonus.
IPCW: So Linux can be run on the Cell.
KK: Linux is legacy, but it will be a start. In the case of the Cell, operation systems are applications. The kernel will be running on the Cell, and multiple OSes will be running on top of that as applications. Of course the PS3 can run Linux. If Linux can run, so can Lindows. Other PC Operating Systems can run too, such as Windows and Tiger (Max OS X 10.4), if the publishers want to do so. Maybe a new OS might come out.
IPCW: Does that mean that we can expect applications that take advantage of the Cell, aside from games?
KK: As an example, HD video editing software is basically the same as the non-linear editing system used in broadcasting stations. What we're trying to do on the PS3 is that level of software. Non-linear editing systems are incredible, but if it was done on the Cell, it would be even more incredible....The difference will be obvious. I think other PC applications like photo-retouching software will also be able to be done on the PS3. The user interface will also get interesting. In the case of the PC, users will have to wait for years between XP's UI to Longhorn's. But the PS3's UI will evolve much faster. For example, if we had an interface where we could control applications using gestures and words using the Eye Toy, it would be like Minority Report. Of course, that kind of an evolution will also reflect on games. This will be the first form that [the Cell] will be spread. It can connect a keyboard, and it has all the necessary interfaces. It can run media, and it can run on a network. It's got such an all-around purpose, and it's open. It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it. It's the same thing with the graphics since it's got the shaders.
Sony is REALLY effin full of themselves aren't they?
Edit: This is from PC Watch as you can tell.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 09, 2005, 03:29:48 PM
-- You're the one calling them "toys," you arse.
``the government sees it as a "toy." "
-- You haven't done anything to make the PS2 seem more than a neat Christmas gift for kids (ages 3-80). Arse.
``and it can even run Linux, but it's still considered a gaming machine. "
-- And people buy it for what else...? Oh, I see, thanks, arse.
``The PlayStation 2 has something as great as the Emotion Engine, "
-- AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAH whatever, arse.
Post by: KnowsNothing on June 09, 2005, 04:26:58 PM
. The guy is really an idiot, I don't think I need to say any more. I honestly think that the PS3 will flop (comparitivley to their previous gens it'll be a disaster), it'll probably be pretty even all around the console market. Not even the PS name will help it all that much, since Sony's pretty clear on their "**** the gamers" stance. And what the hell, a 120 GB HDD isn't enough? I cannot think of a reason why this is not enough, unless you download the actual games, which would be incredibly stupid since the games would be huge and would take forever to download. Same with the network drive, wouldn't it take a broadband connection to realistically use such a thing?
Post by: Famicom on June 09, 2005, 05:09:10 PM
Looks like once again Ninty's console will be my one and only, unless the 360 can actually prove it's next-gen worthy over the next year.
Post by: jasonditz on June 09, 2005, 05:15:17 PM
Post by: Grant10k on June 09, 2005, 07:39:27 PM
Quote
I believe its wrong that, while we've been calling PlayStations "computers," Nintendo, which is in our same business, keeps telling the world their consoles are "toys."
I used to hate sony, now I LOATH them.
THEY are the ones who released the eye TOY
Quote
Of course, that kind of an evolution will also reflect on games. This will be the first form that [the Cell] will be spread. It can connect a keyboard, and it has all the necessary interfaces. It can run media, and it can run on a network. It's got such an all-around purpose, and it's open. It will become completely open if we equip it with Linux, and programmers will be able to do anything with it. It's the same thing with the graphics since it's got the shaders.
Congradulations, you've created a PC. Better tell the Sony Vaio engineers about this, I hear they are doing something similar. To bad Sony, I've already got a PS3 apparently, I call it a modded Xbox.
Post by: Robotor on June 09, 2005, 09:29:27 PM
PS3 needs to go on a diet, eating up so many gigs.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 09, 2005, 10:14:33 PM
120GB aren't enough. 2.5" isn't enough. Give us 3.5" and I'll slap a 500GB in there! But then again I'd rather slap it into my computer, it needs that. Both drives are full. That's 240 GB. If you're a real geek you can fill ANYTHING. Hell, roughly 100GB are just downloads.
So they're worried about having to pay duties on games machines? Well, your f#cking fault if you call it a PLAYSTATION computer ENTERTAINMENT system. If you decide to use the standard console business model. If you decide to release a new revision of your hardware that won't even run the freaking OS you're calling the reason it's a computer. You know what? A f#cking Gameboy runs Linux. ANYTHING with more than two transistors does. what do you want? That everyone calls their systems PCs? Thanks, I'll be happy to use my Personal Digital PC or PC Advance. Perhaps after playing a round of RE 4 on my PC Cube.
Post by: ghostVi on June 10, 2005, 06:12:26 AM
If you need more space - get another HDD, I don't really want to permanently store my data on the root partition, thank you very much.
They're gonna get hurt some by having people taking the hardware and skipping the software, but in the long term it might pay-off by luring more devs on the platform by gaining popularity as a programming model. We'll have to wait and see if the idea of a multimedia supercomputer is viable.
edit: spelling
Post by: SgtShiversBen on June 10, 2005, 07:03:08 AM
I actually respect Microsoft more and more now.
Post by: Ian Sane on June 10, 2005, 07:24:27 AM
Sony is risking loses chunks of that audience. Hardcore gamers aren't going to like the de-emphasis on gaming and the really casual players who buy a console just to play Madden every year don't want to pay "computer" money for the thing. By going away from making a "toy" they're going away from made the Playstation so popular.
This is the company that beat the Saturn with the single announcement that their console was $100 cheaper. Now they're talking about being the most expensive. Huh?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 10, 2005, 07:43:37 AM
Sony is the first with the social experiment to see if the consumer will buy a set-top computer,gaming system, DVD-player and more.
With HD-TVs computer moniters aren't a big deal anymore. We may finally see the beginning of moving computers completely out of the office and into the living room.
Here is the question that will be answered: Are consumers ready for this branching? Some will embrace every aspect of it. Others will just be gamers, and others will just use the computer features. As long as Sony doesn't take a lose on the system then they win no matter how it gets into the houses.
So literally we have 3 new consoles coming out this generation.
Sony is going complete single unit multi-media entertainment system.
Microsoft is literally going standard-fare with a few bells and whistles thrown in for onling gaming purposes.
Nintendo is pulling back to the basics and trying to find new ways to innovate the gaming experience and bring the focus around playing again.
This is the first time we actually have 3 distinctly different business models for 3 hardware console systems. It will be interesting to see which wins.
Post by: PaLaDiN on June 10, 2005, 07:51:12 AM
Post by: mantidor on June 10, 2005, 07:52:22 AM
wasnt the psx something like that? lets not forget how it bombed really badly.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 10, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on June 10, 2005, 01:13:10 PM
Personally, I like the way my electronics are organized now. I'm also not sure HDTV will have enough penetration for this to succeed right now, and pricing could be a big issue too.
But what do I know? I thought DVD playback would be unecessary on the PS2, and it turned out to be a pretty big selling point, supposedly, so I'm not going to make any predictions.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2005, 01:55:30 PM
QuoteWe all thought he was out of his mind, but now we know
Kutaragi, known for the bold stroke and the grand vision, swung for the fences from the get-go. "We want to do something that has never been done before," he told Davari and a group of IBMers at their first meeting. "let's work together to change the world." The movie The Matrix had just come out, and Kutaragi relished itspremise of a world that is actually a giant computer simulation "Think about creating a crude version of that world," he said, "where millions of people can play in a realistically rendered virtual Tokyo or New Yourk City as if they are really living there." Creating that magical realm, Kutaragi told the team, would require a chip 1,000 times as powerful as the one in the PlayStation 2. The IBMers tried not to roll their eyes. They tended to like all that Matrix stuff, but when it came to 1,000-fold chip boosts, they thought Kutaragi was out of his mind.
QuotePS4 = 1000 x the power of PS2!!!!! O_O
Davari tapped to lead the project was Kahle...He had designed IBM's first dual core chip, the Power4, and was just coming off a project that produced the IBM chip that powers Apple's G5 computers. "I don't want to do the normal stuff," he says with a shrug. Normal obviously want what Kutaragi had in mind. Still, one of Kahle's first moves was to talk Kutaragi down from that fantasy of a 1,000-fold power increase. Kahle figured a goal of a 100- fold boost from one chip generation to the next, having rarely if ever been achieved in the history of semiconductors, was ambitious enough.
Kutaragi was incredibly demanding and repeatedly sent Kahle back to the drawing board. At one point about a year into the project, Kutaragi made the team scrap the whole system structure and start over nearly from scratch. Another time Kutaragi decided he wanted two more cores. Why? "He just wanted to squeeze the engineering team," expains Masakazu Suzuoki, Sony's top Cell engineer, wringing his hands as if strangling a snake. "it hurt your head," Kahle recalls. Making the pain worse: The team still had to deliver the chip on the original schedule.
But is Cell all its cracked up to be? will Kutaragi see hes fantasy become reality this generation or even next? was it all the the billions of dollars put into it?
Post by: PaLaDiN on June 11, 2005, 04:48:42 AM
Sorry, I already have a PC. Your jedi mind tricks won't work on me.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2005, 09:20:22 AM
Post by: Galford on June 12, 2005, 04:25:33 PM
Really though, what scares me about MS is they have learned a lot about why the XBox didn't do well in certain markets and applied it well to the XBox360. I can't say the same about Nintendo or Sony.
Ok Sony did learn it's lesson about getting a good GPU into a console.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 13, 2005, 04:19:47 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on June 13, 2005, 08:50:06 AM
I agree with KDR that Nintendo has done well by adding online and backwards compatibility, but I think public and developer relations are even more important. MS seems to be getting really aggressive in the Xbox 360's assault on Japan, and there have been real results in terms of games. They have two RPGs coming from Mistwalker, and support from SquareEnix - everything Nintendo should have had at the launch of the GameCube, but didn't. Of course with Japan's gaming market on a downhill slide, Microsoft may be too late to the party, maybe traditional RPGs aren't enough anymore, but I think that Microsoft's announcements so far must be more exciting to Japan than Nintendo's.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2005, 02:06:27 AM
