Post by: Gamebasher on May 25, 2005, 08:17:07 AM
Whoa! That is one heck of a blow! And here I thought that SEGA was doing much better after the merger with Sammy! The newsarticle also states that the only thing which kept them both out of an overall dissapointing annual turnover was the sales of the kind of pinball machines known as Pachinko machines in Japan.
But does this signify that SEGA has lost it gaming wise? Or is it only a temporary situation? Losing their inspiration perhaps?
Would love to hear your opinions!
The article is found
here
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 08:29:34 AM
This is not the Sega of Caution: Seaman! or Shenmue or NiGHTS Into Dreams, or even the Sega of Space Harrier and Golden Axe. This is the Sega of "Sonic Mega Collection 2" and "Phantasy Star Online: Umpteenth edition"
Post by: ThePerm on May 25, 2005, 08:54:32 AM
Post by: vudu on May 25, 2005, 08:55:00 AM
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 09:01:31 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on May 25, 2005, 10:32:04 AM
No it's just that Sammy never had it. Sega doesn't exist anymore. It's just a name like "Atari". Sega caught cancer when the Dreamcast was discontinued and died when Sammy bought them.
It serves Sammy right for sh!t like Virtua Quest.
Though oddly enough Sammy wanted Sega to get away from games and focus more on arcade stuff like Pachinko. Brilliant estimation or self-fulfilling prophecy?
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 11:06:26 AM
There might be a market for a Shining Force III based Pachinko machine today, but if we go another decade with nothing but mediocre shining force titles, will people really care anymore?
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 11:08:04 AM
Post by: couchmonkey on May 25, 2005, 11:36:25 AM
Post by: Sir_Stabbalot on May 25, 2005, 12:42:49 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on May 25, 2005, 12:57:58 PM
It seems like Sega needs more freedom and inspiration to redeem themselves. Nintendo could be their answer. If bought, they could become like Retro.
Post by: jasonditz on May 25, 2005, 01:02:17 PM
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on May 25, 2005, 06:31:01 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on May 26, 2005, 01:08:39 AM
And "Atari Corporation" could've saved it self a lot of money on new stationary if they could just explain to me what the hell a "grame" is.
No, they just needed to explain to those Americans that the French use "es" as a plural form and therefore the singular was "Infogram", which should have a rather obvious meaning.
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 06:50:32 AM
Post by: ThePerm on May 26, 2005, 07:22:04 AM
Post by: jasonditz on May 26, 2005, 07:34:44 AM
Then again, I always pronounced Hudson like the bay... and to hear that damned bee pronounce it, its "Huh-duh-san"
Post by: Gamebasher on May 26, 2005, 07:53:15 AM
Still, I don´t think that they will be able to carry Sonic over to Nintendo. It´s owned by Sammy now, if I am not mistaken?
These consoles battles have taken their ugly tolls. Only the biggest companies and the best games will survive the future. That much is certain. Keeping my fingers crossed for what´s left of SEGA.
Post by: KDR_11k on May 26, 2005, 11:34:55 PM
Post by: Dasmos on May 27, 2005, 04:01:21 AM
Post by: stevey on May 29, 2005, 09:42:31 AM
step one kill everyone at sammy
step two make a new sonic the heghog game that in 3d but move in 2d like new smb and praser dragoon make lot of money
step 3 after the xbox 1.5 get dreamcast buy all you can of the remain and make a new cheap game system and call it gennis 2, then get 3rd party by giving out free dev. kits
Post by: Gamebasher on May 30, 2005, 05:50:45 AM
Once, all the offices are cleared of Sammy employees, I will:
1) Get a hold of Yuji Naka and friends and glue them to office chairs put in front of powerfull PC´s and tell them they won´t get out and off until they´ve come up with a Sonic Game that´s better than anything they´ve ever made and where the camera is functioning at last (#¤%&/ -that camera!)
2) Get a similar hold of Yuji Naka and superglue him to a POLE until he stops making "inventive" games that either too few people overall worldwide want´s to play really (hurting the reputation of SEGA) or is so difficult to master that noone CAN play it in the end!
3) Get a hold of the people who makes SEGA Rally 2005 exclusively for the Ps2 and tell them to change it so it only comes out on GameCube or they will be sent to one of Jupiters moons on a OneWay Ticket
4) Find the blighters who made Panzer Dragoon Orta impossible to complete, for reasons of an impossible control system which made it impossible to steer the dragoon in crucial places in the same game, and build them into a room with no exit, and tell them that they won´t get out until they´ve made TWO new Panzer Dragoon games that are actually PLAYABLE!
Hmmm, mmmyes! That should do it for now.
First clear out the dark side of SEGA Management, and next clear out the dark side of SEGA creativity. THAT would just about bring us back to where we were years ago when SEGA was still great.
The DC is dead, so I don´t care what system they launch their games on. As long as it isn´t that or the Ps2 (suckz!).
SEGA´s own management´s rubbish decisions undid SEGA. So their only option today is to go over to Nintendo and save the day for themselves. SAMMY will kill them for sure.
Post by: ThePerm on May 30, 2005, 09:09:12 AM
Post by: jasonditz on May 30, 2005, 10:26:45 AM
But if Sega's not done squeezing blood from the Dreamcast's remaining stones, might I suggest porting Caution: Seaman! to the DS?
Post by: TMW on May 30, 2005, 10:46:38 AM
W. T. F.
Sonic Team really needs to jump ship and sign on with Nintendo, and then ONLY develop games for the DS. They've already proven they can't handle three dimensions. Two seems to suit them just fine.
Post by: Caillan on May 30, 2005, 10:52:47 AM
Post by: TMW on May 30, 2005, 11:34:31 AM
Post by: stevey on May 30, 2005, 03:44:47 PM
Is just me or is the camera getting wrose? sa1 it was okay for most of it in sa2b is was great going forward but as sone as you go back a step it was crap on a sick and sh it suck, a paper bag over my head would of been a better camera.
4 steps to stop sonic from sucking
step 1 kill the camera programer
step 2 kill the people behide SH (and sth if the game suck but I don't think it will)
step 3 kill the peoplewho write the line and do voice overs
step 4 bitch slap the people at sega if they whore out sonic.
Post by: Gamebasher on May 30, 2005, 09:06:55 PM
SEGA be damned for ruining the Sonic franchise with the WORST camera ever seen in any game, and BAD gameplay in the two games that followed SA where the camera had not been fixed like it should. No wonder they´re being punished!!! Mu-hahahaha! They really SHOULD join Nintendo and learn how to make proper games!
How many people in here thinks the Shadow character is boring?
Post by: Dasmos on May 30, 2005, 09:19:00 PM
One thing that the 3d sonics did need was someone to pick decent music.........arggg just remebering the song to the first level of Sonic Adventure 2 battle.......best level of the game but the music......someone in my drama class in year 9 brought in a cd for their performance and it contained that song. I almost cried!!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 31, 2005, 07:18:54 AM
Yeah I hated that. Why use a shadow? Why not just make the wall in front of me clear when I need to see? It always bothers me when cameras get "stuck" on things. It's a videogame. Nothing's real so just let me have omnipotent vision.
I think the ideal camera is Wind Waker's. You can switch to a fully controllable camera at any time and then at the push of button center the camera right behind you and go back into the "default" view. The 3D Sonic cameras are good when you're going through the main "path" of the level. It's just completely useless for backtracking. With the Wind Waker system they could make it so that you have complete control when you want it and you can just push a button to return to the "path" view.
I agree though that Sonic Team would learn a lot from Nintendo. By my count Nintendo has not screwed up a 2D-to-3D conversion yet.
Post by: TMW on May 31, 2005, 08:31:09 AM
Quote
I agree though that Sonic Team would learn a lot from Nintendo. By my count Nintendo has not screwed up a 2D-to-3D conversion yet.
Well, that being said, I think the reason Sonic Team screwed up so badly was because Sonic the Hedgehog is really a 2D game, first and foremost. The style of gameplay isn't suited to that tricky third dimension. Sonic is about speed, IIRC, and when you add in some depth to that, it complicates things.
I think they should have taken note with Sonic R. It just doesn't work.
And changing Robotniks name back to Eggman didn't help any either.
Post by: Arbok on May 31, 2005, 09:08:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: TMW
And changing Robotniks name back to Eggman didn't help any either.
If I'm not mistaken, his name was always Eggman in the Japanese version, it's the US versions that coined the name Robotnik during the Genesis days. I have to say, god bless them though, it's a much better name. A shame they didn't approach this aspect like Nintendo did Bowser.
Post by: jasonditz on May 31, 2005, 11:11:04 AM
Post by: TMW on May 31, 2005, 07:07:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ArbokQuote
Originally posted by: TMW
And changing Robotniks name back to Eggman didn't help any either.
If I'm not mistaken, his name was always Eggman in the Japanese version, it's the US versions that coined the name Robotnik during the Genesis days. I have to say, god bless them though, it's a much better name. A shame they didn't approach this aspect like Nintendo did Bowser.
Thats why I said "back to Eggman". I know he was Eggman originally, but the stupid localization team could have stuck with the way it's always been done and just change his freakin' name in SA.
And what do you mean by Bowser?
Post by: vudu on June 01, 2005, 09:18:01 AM
QuoteBowser was originally called King Koopa. Instead of completely changing his name, Nintendo decided that Bowser was his first name (or something like that). So his full name is King Bowser Koopa. But most people just call him Bowser.
And what do you mean by Bowser?
I believe they did the same thing with Princess Peach Toadstool.
Post by: Gamebasher on June 01, 2005, 09:34:43 AM
Is this because they feel they have come to a dead-stop in terms of creativity with Sonic?
Post by: KDR_11k on June 02, 2005, 09:05:15 AM
TMW: I thought his name was Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik with Eggman being a name used to make fun of him?
Post by: vudu on June 02, 2005, 09:13:37 AM
QuoteWhen the Revolution comes, of course.
I wonder when we get to liberate Mushroom Kingdom...
Post by: Gamebasher on June 13, 2005, 05:44:22 AM
But I don´t understand why the 2D Sonics couldn´t be made into 3D games without all those problems with the camera. Can anyone here explain what exactly was the conversion problem?
Post by: RABicle on June 13, 2005, 07:09:50 AM
Post by: stevey on June 13, 2005, 07:27:21 AM
because of two thing
1 It because sonic and mario aren't the same sonic goes super fast mario not so much and camera don't like fast thing and Shigeru Miyamoto is smart a kepted link, zelda, and mario from talking to much.
2 sega forgot what made sonic last and last going the same level again and again and kept it sill fun, In the same level alone it had 15+ way of going to the end, lot of secet to be found, super sonic, *drooling* and so much more but in 3d all of that geatness gone.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 13, 2005, 08:35:08 AM
Post by: RABicle on June 14, 2005, 06:49:26 PM
Quote
1 It because sonic and mario aren't the same sonic goes super fast mario not so much and camera don't like fast thing and Shigeru Miyamoto is smart a kepted link, zelda, and mario from talking to much.
2 sega forgot what made sonic last and last going the same level again and again and kept it sill fun, In the same level alone it had 15+ way of going to the end, lot of secet to be found, super sonic, *drooling* and so much more but in 3d all of that geatness gone.
What?
Oh yeah there is another reason: Sonic games were never that good to begin with, Mario games were. Go back and play them today, Sonic fails.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2005, 11:54:51 PM
Post by: Artimus on June 15, 2005, 02:26:08 AM
Post by: TMW on June 15, 2005, 08:12:01 AM
Leave it up to the fact that Sonic and Mario have completely different gameplay. Some people like one more than the other.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 15, 2005, 09:26:25 AM
Sonic was always just an above average platformer. Its speed and lack of variety in the character was its downfall. Too often the levels had to be designed to prohibit speed so not to allow you just to beat the level. That means either tons of enemies that you have to be careful around, spikes (read cheap kills) or just really annoying enviroment obsticles like bumpers and such. Even with all that Sonic games seemed to still be pretty easy, as it was a game of memorizing levels.
Even though Sonic had branching paths I never felt it was a game about exploration and discovery. Mario has many more elements of that than Sonic. First Mario never punished you for running through the levels fast or slow (except on the scrolling levels) Mario was filled with a huge variety of enemies, powerup, and enviromental items that behavied and reacted differently to Mario. This lead to level designs that may be linear but were always filled with fun surprises that were a joy to revisit.
Sonic really needs to be acknowledged as the second rate series that it is. Sega never tried to learn lessons from the Mario franchise and it shows. Sonic 1 and 2 a very much the same game...with very minor differences.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 15, 2005, 10:41:13 AM
Post by: vudu on June 15, 2005, 10:49:06 AM
Also, SMW had about a gadzillion hidden levels, whereas SMB3 only had a few.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 15, 2005, 11:28:32 AM
But SMW had lots of secrets and challenges per unit area -- more stuff to do than just zip by and finish the level. And I like platforming in my platformers, you know, jumping from there to there.
Post by: Darc Requiem on June 15, 2005, 08:38:58 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 15, 2005, 10:30:46 PM
Beach Spikers: Virtua Beach Volleyball
That's as far as I'll go.
Post by: darknight06 on June 16, 2005, 04:11:57 AM
Beach Spikers: Virtua Beach Volleyball"
Both of which were from Amusement Vision and not Sonic Team.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 16, 2005, 05:04:27 AM
Then you take the characters that Sega is known for...and release games that are subpar for the system.
Say what you will about Nintendo reusing franchises, but at least I know I can get a new Mario, Zelda, and Metroid with every new system if I want it.
Dreamcast would have done much better if Sega focused on releasing Sonic, Altered Beasts, Outrun, Golden Axe, Streets of Rage...and there other classics.
And Super Mario World added several minor touches to the gameplay from Mario 3 that may not be recongized.
First, they balanced the level design and levels greatly. Each level in World is unique and offers something different than any other world. Second, SMW added much more enviromental puzzles and mysteries than SM3 had.
Sure in Super Mario World there was actually less powerups, but the powerups that were included drastically changed how you looked and performed each level.
Post by: vudu on June 16, 2005, 09:06:05 AM
QuoteDo you count Astro Boy: Omega Factor? If so, that one. If not, um ... Sonic Mega Collection?
What classic quality title have they produced since the demise of the Dreamcast?
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 16, 2005, 09:26:45 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on June 16, 2005, 09:36:13 AM
I file him under "powerups". The powerups in SMW were much better than those in SMB3, mostly because they've removed those unnecessary gimmick costumes that you get so rarely they don't matter and just confuse. Sometimes simplicity is better.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 16, 2005, 09:41:02 AM
I hope they keep Super Mario Brothers DS with the same discipline. All I really want is a platform 2D Mario game with some of the moves from Mario 64 so that you can create a more engaging vertical game. (Wall Jumps are a must.)
Post by: KDR_11k on June 17, 2005, 12:41:58 AM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 19, 2005, 05:51:17 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: darknight06
"Super Monkey Ball 1&2
Beach Spikers: Virtua Beach Volleyball"
Both of which were from Amusement Vision and not Sonic Team.
Beach Spikers was made by AM2, of Virtua Fighter/Shemuu fame.
Post by: KnowsNothing on June 19, 2005, 06:04:39 PM
The end.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 20, 2005, 02:57:16 AM
Post by: stevey on June 20, 2005, 03:54:46 AM
Post by: Gamebasher on June 29, 2005, 06:12:22 PM
I really never thought of that as a reason! But that is indeed what did them in! Not giving their established fanbase what it wanted! I guess they forgot that innovation is one thing (Samba de Amigo and SEGA Bass Fishing), while maintaining your loyal fanbase through keeping them supplied with what makes them come back for more is quite another!
So they have only themselves to thank for where they are today. There must be many good game designers inside SEGA who will jump ship if things don´t get out of that quagmire originaly created by the lack of foresight of their original management!
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 29, 2005, 08:18:10 PM
The sad thing is Sega has finally learned their lesson and are releasing updates to their classic library. Outrun, Altered Beasts, Shinobi and I am sure I am messing some.
I don't understand though. They have a fanbase that has been clamoring for certain games and they just ignore them. Many want a sequel to the Nights game, but Sega hasn't produced one yet. I really don't have a clue why, because that was a very unique game experience that could be improved upon and perfected.
Post by: Gamebasher on June 29, 2005, 10:32:50 PM
Who on Earth is so dumb to drop the making of the best selling brand name games, in a time where first SONY, and NEXT Microsoft enter the market as competitors? I tell you: weak management! I really position myself toughly here, since I cannot give in to that kind of sloppy management. They are to blame, nobody else. The developers are not the management. They "just" make the games. It is executives, shareholders who are to blame here. The executives must at all times ensure the health of their company, even if this means to make drastic decisions, buying back shares to prevent hostile take-overs etc. (Nintendo is like that, and thank HIM up there for that!).
But in a time where they KNEW they had to be carefull, SEGA made no drastic cuts, they instead spent 1/2 Billion Dollars on a console which was sure to receive only meagre response in the wake of the Saturn console flop. If I knew that my previous product was perceived bad and sold poorly, I would think thrice before I lanched my next product. SEGA should have waited until around the time when the Playstation 2 was launching (like Nintendo will do with the Ps3) and THEN made their move. I guess proper advisors could have helped them to arrive at that decision, which they could not make themselves.
You can just vividly imagine how it must have been shareholder pressure or something like that which caused SEGA Management to launch the console before the Playstation 2. Had they had more guts, they would have gone against the shareholders, knowing and explaining to them why it would be wiser to launch at the same time as Playstation 2 as SONY always had more money to talk down any competitor with their deep pockets and army of lawyers and marketing people. Shareholders cannot be allowed to undo a company for reasons of wanting to make a buck faster, and that seems to have been the problem from the start. Shareholders are really some of the most faithless people you can get anywhere. They just want their money, and care little how!
The mouth-to-mouth commercial is always the best, and their little white wonder would have gone neck-and-neck with the Ps2 had it come out at the same time as it did. THEN, the third party developers would have started to see the potential in the Dreamcast and we would have had a whole different situation for SEGA today!
Post by: TMW on June 30, 2005, 07:50:52 AM
It was that elusive "casual gamer" market that didn't buy the Dreamcast. They were hooked on the PS name and waited for the PS2, which had a freakin' DVD player.
It wasn't all Sony's fault, though. Sega did alot of it to themselves. However...Sony pushed them over the edge, with a little help from MS.
====
I must respectfully disagree about the Sonic games. You keep comparing it to the Mario franchise when they have very little in common. They are different kinds of games within the same genre. Apples and oranges, blah blah.
Although, very little I will say will convince you otherwise it seems.
RANDOM NOTE
In the newest NP, they list all the games in the Sonic Gems collection, and "plus a few surprises." What are the chances NiGHTS will be unlockable? I say...5 to 1 odds.
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 30, 2005, 01:36:39 PM
However, the "casual gamer" was wanting more from the Dreamcast. If Dreamcast brought out several killer apps then things would be different. Sega never, ever had a killer app for Dreamcast. The closest they got was Sonic Adventure and it was a highly flawed 3D platformer.
Dreamcast was dead way before MS. MS had nothing to do with their demise.
Sonic the Hedgehog had a different feel, but it was still a platformer. It is very similar to Mario. You run around bouncying oh enemies to kill them...and were required to perform complex jumps and careful navigation of a level to get past the traps and enemies. It was a platformer in its truest forms...so is Mario. I feel the comparisons are fair.
Sonic is the best of "the other platformers" but no other platformer was designed with the same care and commitment to the game than Mario...but then again Nintendo had to give that much commitment to the series because it was their best seller period.
Now Nintendo is giving that commitment to Zelda and Metroid instead of Mario.
Post by: Uglydot on June 30, 2005, 10:27:50 PM
Sega has just been rushing too fast trying to get out a killer app. They need a company like Nintendo to support them and allow them to stew on a game long enough to polish it. The Sonic Adventure games are prime examples of good ideas and such being ruined by lack of polish.
Post by: jasonditz on July 01, 2005, 06:41:29 PM
EA
Ironically, the decision also did much to harm EA's bottom line as the Sega Sports titles wound up on all the platforms and gave them their first competant competition in years, ultimately forcing them to buy their way into an expensive monopoly. If they'd just made Madden for the Dreamcast they'd likely never have had to shell out all that money to the NFL.
Post by: Gamebasher on July 11, 2005, 04:27:29 AM
Post by: nickmitch on July 11, 2005, 09:27:06 AM
You'd need to fork out $350+ just to play football.
Well, for an updated Madden.
Post by: stevey on July 11, 2005, 12:14:11 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 11, 2005, 12:44:42 PM
QuoteActually, wasn't Panasonic the company that released the 3DO?
Originally posted by: stevey
The beast that had nine head EA did make a console and it will be known to be call the 3DO!
Post by: Ian Sane on July 11, 2005, 01:15:13 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on July 11, 2005, 01:26:31 PM
Post by: nickmitch on July 11, 2005, 04:04:41 PM
Quote
Panasonic 3DO Interactive Multiplayer FZ-1 (Release in Japan, Asia, North America, and Europe) The first 3DO system.
Panasonic 3DO Interactive Multiplayer FZ-10 (Release in North America, and Japan) Less costly than the FZ-1, the FZ-10 is smaller compare to the FZ-1.
Goldstar 3DO Interactive Multiplayer (North America only) Early models of the Goldstar systems cause some games not to work.
Sanyo 3DO Interactive Multiplayer (Japan only) The rarest model of the 3DO systems.
You can find more info here or check your local library.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 12, 2005, 01:13:51 AM
Post by: vudu on July 12, 2005, 08:47:00 AM
QuoteAny idea what games cost? In theory, since there were no licensing fees, games could be sold at much cheaper than the competition, thus making up for the high initial cost of the console. Somehow, I doubt consumers saw games for any cheaper than on other systems.
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
3DO was created by 3DO which was a then new company created by EA founder Trip Hawkins. The idea was that the 3DO would be a console standard and that any manufacturer could make them. Panasonic was the first one to manufacture them though later Goldstar made them too and I think there was one other model. The big flaw in the design was that the hardware manufacturers didn't make anything from games sold so they had to sell the console at a ridiculously unaffordable price to make a profit which doomed the whole thing. EA, due to their relationship with Hawkins, supported the 3DO but they weren't the console maker.
Post by: KDR_11k on July 12, 2005, 08:57:33 PM
Post by: Spak-Spang on July 13, 2005, 09:00:39 AM
1)Games have to be priced above the cost of the product.
2)Since a cheaper game will sell more, if a company can sell the game for cheaper they will, because in the end it means more profit for them from larger sales.
It is the above two reasons why budget games like Mega Man Collections and stuff are priced the way they are.
1)They were cheaper to produce.
2)Dropping the price ensures better sales.
Post by: nickmitch on July 13, 2005, 02:34:03 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 02:47:29 AM
This problem leads to the hit-driven business model we're seeing today, games carefully aimed at certain demographics with hopefully predictable sales and therefore calculable price->demand curves so they can predict how much money they can spend on the development to get returns. Of course too many ignore the primary factor here, quality. You can have the best idea but as the Heavenly Sword diary says, "you cannot copy good execution". Innovation adds another uncalculable factor and managers love to pretend a problem is predictable (even though quality and innovation are both pretty random and based on the skill of your devs, no innovation doesn't mean they'll make a good game).
(note: Usually it's called "supply/demand curve" but few items are really priced by supply at retail except if they overstock and don't sell. Competition works differently in the IP market as well so competitors dropping the price will not necessarily lead to less sales for you.)
Post by: nickmitch on July 14, 2005, 04:47:27 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on July 14, 2005, 09:43:23 PM
Post by: vudu on July 15, 2005, 08:59:42 AM
Post by: stevey on July 16, 2005, 04:42:54 AM
Yeah so WE would pay $60 for the new zelda hell I pay $150 for zelda if the game is made of gold.
"Are they really going to be willing to pay twice that for the 2006 version? "
They have no chose they the only one make football game.
Post by: nickmitch on July 16, 2005, 10:06:39 AM
