Gaming Forums => Nintendo Gaming => Topic started by: turkishpunkass on February 17, 2003, 11:33:55 AM
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: turkishpunkass on February 17, 2003, 11:33:55 AM
a lot of people talk about how gamecube has a really powerful texturing unit, but how come we haven't seen much in action? Rogue Squadron had bumpmapping, yes, but still not on the level of Halo.
How much does it hurt GC performance to have bumpmapping enabled? is it a big hit?
Is the gamecube capable of DOT3 bumpmapping in hardware, or just embossed bumpmapping?
is the 24mb of mosys 1t-sram not enough for GC to draw as much hi-res textures as xbox?
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Christberg on February 17, 2003, 11:38:53 AM
The Xbox has more total RAM than the GC by a fair amount so because of that Hires textures get used more.
The GC can't do DOT3, just emboss as I recall. I could be wrong on that though.
The GC is still capable of some rather nice looking games. Metroid Prime looks better than Halo IMO but that's not necessarily a fair comparison.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Rory C on February 17, 2003, 12:17:36 PM
What's the difference between Dot3 and emboss bump-mapping?
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Razex on February 17, 2003, 12:43:57 PM
Man i thought Rogue Squadron had bump-mapping that was equivalent or even better than Halo, that game just looks so amazing. And yea, I think Metroid looks better than Halo, but that's because of all the little details and the art direction. And plus, Halo only runs at 30 fps, while Metroid and Rogue Squadron run at 60 fps. And who cares all that much? If the game looks awesome, who cares how it's done? Halo, Metroid, and RS all look great.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Sean on February 17, 2003, 01:19:54 PM
Appreciation of graphics, for me, and probably most people, is mostly based on a very natural gut reaction. I mean, I never go into it and say, "Wow, look at that amazing bump-mapping." I don't mean to make fun of people who DO do that--we all have different, and sometimes much more technical, ways of appreciating things, but in the end, I'm just saying it's not something I think about all that much. I couldn't tell you what, technically, is going on with Zelda: Wind Waker, but I do know that it's got something many games don't.
And I'd just like to say that Ocarina of Time's well-below-30-fps rate didn't stop it from being perfectly playable and bloody great.
Are we too hung up on the tech side of things? What say you other peoples?
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: slide24 on February 17, 2003, 01:23:34 PM
If you compare Halo to Metroid Prime graphically (as is often done), I think Metroid Prime is the winner overall. Halo has some amazing geometry, nice models, and textures like I've never seen @_@, but Prime has just as nice geometry, better models, excellent textures, that extra level of polish not seen anywhere else, and it runs at a ROCK-SOLID 60 fps. When I think about Halo graphically, the first thing that comes to mind is how often the framerate dipped. The last level was the worst; I'm guessing 15-20 fps. It was almost unplayable. Metroid Prime flawlessly brings all of the elements that make a graphically impressive game together.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Sean on February 17, 2003, 01:26:00 PM
I guess I HAVE to agree that when it comes to Metroid Prime, the difference in frame rate really was apparent. It's just so fluid and beautiful. But I guess that also backs up what I'm saying. I mean, why even bring up what techniques it's "missing" when the game looks SO UNBELIEVABLE with what IS there. I dunno....
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Mingesium on February 17, 2003, 01:27:43 PM
Remember that the GameCube is only starting its second generation of games. Developers are just starting to get familiar with the hardware. F-Zero would be Amusement Vision's fourth GameCube game and look how fantastic it looks.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Sean on February 17, 2003, 01:32:54 PM
Mingesium, absolutely. F-Zero looked a bit plain at first, PERHAPS, but then we begin to see these forest-y pictures, etc., and it just looks stunning. I can't wait. It'll be so fast!! ;-)
Now, where are those bleedin' Star Fox pics from Namco...haha. I know, I know...a long ways off. But I'm anxious!
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Razex on February 17, 2003, 01:58:01 PM
I wouldn't mind any Starfox pics either. But right now I already have too many games to look forward to. I don't even have Zelda yet and I'm waiting for F-zero and Soul Calibur 2.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Agent on February 17, 2003, 05:15:00 PM
Yup, your thought was correct. Emboss bump-mapping. Dreamcast does it, and I believe PS2 are also capable of embossed bumpmapping.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Grey Ninja on February 17, 2003, 11:08:35 PM
I suggest that some users learn what the term bump mapping means, and exactly how it works. Personally, I don't see many problems with GCN textures, and if bump mapping is done properly, you never notice that it's there. Christ people.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Hybrid Hunter on February 17, 2003, 11:48:23 PM
I don't mind GCN graphics, in the long run X-Box will usually be the graphics winner and that won't worry me. As long as the game plays good and looks the best it can be, i'll be happy!
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Uglydot on February 17, 2003, 11:58:09 PM
Yeah...we don't need to see more bump-mapping, we need to see it used well. It is not something that always needs to be used... I think we will see an improvement in grafics and developers get better with the hardware, people need to give them time. You aren't born knowing wall jump in Super Metroid, and you aren't born knowing how to perform miracles on the GCN. It will happen.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 18, 2003, 12:35:23 AM
I dont think Xbox will ever be the overall winner with teams like Factor 5, Silicon Knights or Capcom that do equally impressive things on the GCN.
And next console generation no Human being will be able to see the difference between the 3 consoles at all. I mean, how do you see the difference between 1billion or 1.5billion polys???
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Marcus Arillius on February 18, 2003, 04:19:37 AM
I think that we don't see more bump-mapping because it comes down to laziness, and efficiency. Look at Mario Sunshine. I'm sorry, but the textures in that game were zero to none. I'm sure if they took a few more months the could have went in and added more texture and bump-mapping, but they had a quality product without it so the just shipped it. They knew they were in a dry-spell of "good" games so they wanted to get one out as soon as possible. Of course this is just my opinion, not fact, so no angry retorts please.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Nintendork SP on February 18, 2003, 05:28:42 AM
I like to think of the Xbox's power to a GC like a Mac to a PC, you know on paper the Mac sure sounds a heck of a lot worse than a PC but it isn't that way once you get to using it.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Hemmorrhoid on February 18, 2003, 06:03:05 AM
Great comparison because the GCN has a mac similar processor while the Xbox has a P3. Im one of these people who believes that the GCN can have games look just as good as Xbox games, and I say look, meaning that it might not have as many polys, but more textures or whatever ulitmately looking the same.
I really hope Metroid Prime 2 uses bumpmapping, and I see no reason why not. Metroid could certainly use a little more polys on some objects.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Samwise Gamgee on February 18, 2003, 12:38:50 PM
game cube cant realy do bumpmapping! if it could, i' m sure Retro would have used it in metroid prime! yet, i'm sure it can be done on gamecube, but it is probibly danm hard and too much of a strain on programers!
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: rodtod on February 18, 2003, 01:19:04 PM
Quote Originally posted by: Razex Man i thought Rogue Squadron had bump-mapping that was equivalent or even better than Halo, that game just looks so amazing. And yea, I think Metroid looks better than Halo, but that's because of all the little details and the art direction. And plus, Halo only runs at 30 fps, while Metroid and Rogue Squadron run at 60 fps. And who cares all that much? If the game looks awesome, who cares how it's done? Halo, Metroid, and RS all look great.
Rogue Squadron does have impressive visuals, and its bump-mapping is pretty good...but the draw distance was hurt pretty badly. But no matter, that debate is long since over anyway. Glad to see you appreciate all three of these games regardless of visual difference
Oh, and Samwise Gamgee, I may be wrong but isn't it the graphics artists who are responsible for the bump-mapping, not the programmers?
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: slide24 on February 18, 2003, 04:24:13 PM
I don't know how anyone can be impressed by F-Zero. The backgrounds/buildings/off-the-track details are great looking, but the vehicles themselves are very basic. They look sort of plastic-toy-ish and way too clean. I remember the first thing I thought when I saw the trailer on the Zelda bonus disc for F-Zero was how they looked like N64 models put into a GameCube game. F-Zero overall seems too "colorful" if that's possible; it should be a bit darker and grittier. The framerate, though....... wow.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: MorningStar on February 18, 2003, 04:36:11 PM
Yes...The framerate in F-Zero is CRAZY!!!
By the way, who cares what the consoles can do? As long as they look like a game thats from this generation, it's fine...It's not fine, though, if the game creators say really good things about the graphics and then they turnout to be crap.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Darc Requiem on February 20, 2003, 05:29:00 AM
Well to be honest the reason you don't see more GC games with bumpmapping and hi-res textures is because most GC games are ports. Nintendo isn't really known for pushing hardware to its limits and outside of Capcom we've seen little exclusive 3rd party games for GC. So thats why we haven't seen anything that pushes the hardware. I can still fire up Rogue Leader and it looks damn good. Not much has come close to it and it was a launch title. Outside of Metroid, I've yet to see a fully 3D game besides Rogue Leader that pushes the GC's hardware. Graphics aren't everything but it is shame to have hardware that capable of so much more that we aren't seeing. Well RE4 looks impressive but we wont see that for another year. Hopefully Nintendo or a 3rd party will have something at e3 that will blow my socks off.
Darc Requiem
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: nonjagged on February 20, 2003, 06:56:21 AM
Someone claimed GCN cant do bumpmapping otherwise MP would have used it.
Let it be known that GCN can easily do bumpmapping however the developers doing MP focused on framerate and fluency and loadtimes rather than bumpmapping visual stimulaes. Now you know why Halo has temperamental framerates (bumpmapping or other special effects will always slow things down) and now you know why MP runs silky smooth, because developers opted to not implement fullon bumpmapping, but still MP still manages to maintain sophisticated visuals nonetheless.
The more textures used, the more special effects used, the more framerate will be sacrificed. Now because many developers focus on gameplay and framerates over visual bumpmapping has nothing to do with certain victimised console's capabilities.
Know the facts before you dictate.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Darc Requiem on February 20, 2003, 09:59:48 AM
Well Non Jagged I couldn't agree more. Rogue Leader uses bump mapping. Who ever said the GC can't do bump mapping needs to check their facts. With Metroid Prime 2 in the works, I'm interested to see what kind of advancements can be made to the engine used in MP.
Darc Requiem
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: Agent on February 20, 2003, 03:20:47 PM
We have already established that. They were talking about what kind of bumpmapping the gc can do.
Title: why dont we see more bumpmapping and hi-res textures in GC games?
Post by: egman on February 21, 2003, 02:18:33 AM
I don't know what the big deal is anyway with all of this tech. I think art direction is much more important to a game. Metroid was just mentioned as a great looking game in spite of a lack of technical tricks. The world of Tallon IV is alive in a way that I don't find Halo is.
I think eventually we'll have more sytem pushers. Factor 5 seems to be cooking up something special and Nintendo has been working hard to court some of the big guys in the 3rd party world. God knows what some of the 2nd parties are doing at the moment.
