Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 18, 2005, 11:23:36 AM
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=8051
QuoteIf they reach an agreement b4 MS start mass producing, do you think it would be too late to swith from DVD9 to the new drives w/o having a huge pricing spike? I sure they only went with DVD9 to avoid being stuck with the wrong choice when a format is chosen.
Until now, Sony has stood firmly behind the Blu-ray format.
Now the Japanese giant has told Reuters that it may be willing to reach an agreement with its competitors to put an end to the format war before it begins.
"From the point of view to provide the best service to the consumer, one format is better than two. We're open to discussions," said Yukinori Kawauchi, the general manager heading up the next-gen DVD project at Sony's Video Group.
However, Sony has yet to put a set of plans for the single format on the table: "There's no visible progress to do that [create a single standard]," said Kawauchi.
Obviously Sony would go with the new drives, but what do you think Nintendo would do?
edit: title
Post by: Grant10k on April 18, 2005, 12:38:44 PM
Edit: said 'moves' instead of 'games' the first time.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 18, 2005, 01:16:29 PM
The movies are the ones that don't have a 'wrong' choice as they can release on whatever format they want.
Just as Game Studios can port their games, Movie Studios can port their movies. Its the hardware manufacturer that loses out. (i.e. Nintendo getting the shaft on many could be ports)
Post by: kirby_killer_dedede on April 18, 2005, 01:35:21 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on April 18, 2005, 01:56:30 PM
Quote
Well you don't want to have and promote using a HD-DVD drive in Xbox 360 if everyone else ends up supporting Blu-ray.
You also wouldn't want to have DVD9 as your drive in the Xbox 360 if everyone ends up supporting Blu-ray.
HD DVD and Blu-ray are both a step up from DVD. And backwards compatible with DVD. If Microsoft took the "wrong" step up, it would be no more "wrong" than just sticking with DVD. If Microsoft went with HD DVD, and nobody adopted HD DVD, then Microsoft would just have DVD movies, and a nearly-proprietary format for increased storage space in games.
Microsoft probably just doesn't think the "step up" is financially worth it right now, and the fact that there are no guarantees about which step is the "right one" probably does factor into that.
Edit: Unless you believe the rumors that say Microsoft dropped HD DVD because their suppliers said they weren't entirely ready for HD DVD, and wouldn't be able to make enough drives to meet MS's "best case scenerio" projections for the Xbox 360's possible success.
Post by: Ian Sane on April 18, 2005, 02:12:46 PM
All that really matters when choosing a format for a game console is how cheap it is, how much it can store, and how hard is it to pirate.
Post by: Grant10k on April 18, 2005, 02:28:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1
Well you don't want to have and promote using a HD-DVD drive in Xbox 360 if everyone else ends up supporting Blu-ray. You would be saying that it can play next generation HD games & movies and you would be lying, cause there wouldn't really be any Next Gen HD movies for HD-DVD 'cause they would all be for Blu-ray.
The movies are the ones that don't have a 'wrong' choice as they can release on whatever format they want.
Just as Game Studios can port their games, Movie Studios can port their movies. Its the hardware manufacturer that loses out. (i.e. Nintendo getting the shaft on many could be ports)
Well, yeah, if you are selling the Xbox360 as a movie player, but as a console device, it doesn’t mater. Say Xbox plays HD-DVDs, no one is going to release Xbox games on Blu-ray. Movies do have a wrong choice, for example: Betamax is the wrong choice, VHS is the correct choice.
I'm no expert, but I would think that choosing the 'wrong' medium would be beneficial as far a piracy is concerned. No one has a Gamecube disc burner, but many people have Xbox and Ps2 disk burners, heck, you can even read ps2 disks on a PC without any special set up (aside from owning a DVD rom).
If you choose 'correctly' you sell a few extra consoles as movie players, however if you choose wisely, you save a few grand on piracy prevention.
IAN:exacly, I agree 103%
I believe that HD-dvd or Blu-ray will go the way of the laserdisc, while not widely popular, people with expensive big screen HD setups will have them to take advantage of their superior resolution, but most people will stick with DVD's because in all honesty, DVDs look damn fine, I don't think there is anything wrong with them.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 18, 2005, 02:36:12 PM
QuoteDVD9 may be the cheapest, but it also has the least amount of storage & isn't it already pirate-able?
All that really matters when choosing a format for a game console is how cheap it is, how much it can store, and how hard is it to pirate.
p.s. I'm not 100% sure what the differences between regular DVD & DVD9 are, I just know that it hold more data than a regular DVD but is still playable in regular DVD players, right?
Post by: Renny on April 18, 2005, 03:39:36 PM
I can see MS changing to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray once it's cheap enough, early adopters be damned. Their console won't launch spectacularly, it'll get killed once the PS3 is out, and the Revolution[?]. MS will be desperate enough to hurt their core fanbase to keep up.
Post by: Darc Requiem on April 18, 2005, 04:36:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Renny
DVD9 is a dual-layer DVD. I don't know when this standard was adopted to the DVD Forum, but I imagine it's been around for quite awhile, near the DVD's original inception. Such that virtulally every DVD player/drive in use should support it by now. The PS2 and Xbox support dual-layer DVDs. Still, in two years time DVD9 will be next generation's Cube disc. It won't prevent the Xbox360 from having great games, but it might deter 3rd parties from developing multiplatform games for the system. Which is exactly what MS is striving for.
I can see MS changing to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray once it's cheap enough, early adopters be damned. Their console won't launch spectacularly, it'll get killed once the PS3 is out, and the Revolution[?]. MS will be desperate enough to hurt their core fanbase to keep up.
My thoughts exactly. MS is going to have the same problem Cube had, lazy third parties that will say there isn't enough space on DVD9. With Sony using Blu-Ray and Nintendo rumored to be using an HD-DVD based medium.......MS is gonna have the smallest storage medium by far.
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 18, 2005, 05:51:19 PM
Of course, Nintendo figured 1.5GB was plenty, and though it is by their ROM-compression N64 standards, there are enough 2-disc GC games to prove Nintendo wrong. The same COULD happen to MS. Frankly, I think Nintendo might go for a similarly-sized disc that is a mini-HDDVD disc.
Post by: KDR_11k on April 19, 2005, 08:47:44 AM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on April 19, 2005, 09:57:16 AM
Anyways, Ian....your point, while a good one, doesn't pertain to this day and age. People don't mind mixing their collections. Hell...If I can buy a new piece of hardware that steps up the level of clarity while playing the DVD's I already own...I'm sold. There won't be a complete switch anytime soon, but the time for DVD's to gradually fade out is coming soon...like next year or so.
If you haven't seen HD in display, check them out now. I'm not talking about at a BestBuy, but at a friends house. If they have priority HD channels like ESPN Football or Discovery...it is an amazing experience. I watched the Discovery channel for 2 hours simply because I could see every detail in the lion's fur, and in the turtle's skin. It is so much more engaging. I can't wait to see the first movies come out.
If I had an HD display, I would pick up an HD-DVD player and a movie in a second.
Post by: Djunknown on April 19, 2005, 05:31:18 PM
Quote
There won't be a complete switch anytime soon, but the time for DVD's to gradually fade out is coming soon...like next year or so.
I have to disagree on this one. I'm with Ian here. I remember back in 1996 that DVD's were bleeding edge, yet so expensive. I believe it was around the year 2000 or so that DVD's started to get popular with the masses. Switching technologies in 5 years? C'mon...
Quote
If they have priority HD channels like ESPN Football or Discovery...it is an amazing experience.
I won't deny that. Its really something to look at. But I have to ask: How big was your buddy's TV and how much did it cost? Was it a flat panel or flat screen? At this stage, they're still too expensive for the common man's reach.
Quote
If I had an HD display, I would pick up an HD-DVD player and a movie in a second.
That's a big if. Is there any reason why you don't have an HD display right now? Does it have something to do with the price?
As far as gaming is concerned, could this create porting problems? Sony wants to go their way, MS theirs, no doubt Nintendo will do the same. three potential radically different formats! Imagine that....
Post by: Ian Sane on April 19, 2005, 05:47:29 PM
That actually might be good for the industry. Third party games were a whole lot more interesting last gen because the top two consoles, Playstation and N64, were so different that nearly every third party game was an exclusive. So nearly every third party game made full use of the hardware it was on. With this gen there are many more generic third party games. That's because it's so easy to port so so many titles are made that don't make full use of any one console. Plus because of the ease of porting Nintendo lost a fair bit of exclusive support it used to have on the N64.
Remember Acclaim? On the N64 they were actually pretty good. They didn't make total classics but that made pretty decent titles like Turok and Extreme G. They made games that made full use of the hardware and because they were exclusive games they received more attention from gamers. This gen their games took a huge nosedive because they designed them with three consoles in mind. They also went under partially because with multiplatform games they lost the attention that gamers put on exclusives. Midway is largely the same way. They were much better last generation when they made exclusive games.
So realistically if all three consoles next gen have too different of formats we might see more exclusive support across the board. Though it's a tricky situation. If two of the consoles use compatible formats and the third doesn't we might see the oddball get squeezed out for being different.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 09, 2005, 01:01:53 PM
http://ranobe.com/up/updata/up36772.jpg
Quote
TOKYO (Nikkei)--In ongoing negotiations between Sony Corp. (SNE) and Toshiba Corp. (6502.TO) toward developing a unified standard for next-generation DVDs, the two sides are hammering out a format in which Toshiba's software technology would be coupled with Sony's disc structure, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reports in its Tuesday morning edition.
The two camps are focusing on the Sony format for the optical disc structure, in which data is recorded 0.1mm from the disc's surface. Toshiba's software, which offers efficient data transfer and copyright protection, would be incorporated into the unified format.
In recent talks, Toshiba has taken a more flexible stance, noting that the Sony disc structure may be inevitable in light of various considerations. The company is seeking proof that the discs based on the Sony format can be mass-produced at low cost.
Its not 100% official that they will be merged, but if SONY can make the disc cheaper to produce then I'm sure it will be a sure deal.
We know what Sony is aiming for, but where does that leave Nintendo?
Post by: couchmonkey on May 09, 2005, 01:25:38 PM
Although, I personally don't think disc size has been that big of an issue for GameCube...yes, developers complain now and then, and it has hurt a few games like Mega Man Anniversary Collection, but on the whole I think Nintendo's third-place marketshare and the weak sales of third-party software on the Cube had a much bigger affect on third-party support than the size of the discs...but it is an issue that could hurt Microsoft a little.
Post by: couchmonkey on May 09, 2005, 01:35:46 PM
Post by: JonLeung on May 10, 2005, 03:28:43 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1The word sliding along the grapevine is that Blu-ray won for new format and HD-DVD is the software
Oh, that's awesome.
If I have my facts right, Blu-Ray holds more than the former HD-DVD format, right? Then I would prefer Blu-Ray's format, but hopefully they also take the name of HD-DVD...it actually sounds like a proper step up from DVD.
Post by: BigJim on May 10, 2005, 03:41:38 PM
Toshiba dampens talk of Blu-ray, HD deal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 16, 2005, 12:26:37 PM
QuoteLooks like talk aren't going so well.....
Originally posted by: BlackNMild2k1
Its not 100% official that they will be merged, but if SONY can make the disc cheaper to produce then I'm sure it will be a sure deal.
EE Times
Quote
Talks among Matsushita, Sony and Toshiba designed to unify competing next-generation DVD formats have failed, making it more likely the rivals will follow separate paths to the video market.
Backers of the rival HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc formats said talks would nevertheless continue.
Sony and Toshiba updated the status of unification talks during both meetings, according to attendees. Kiyoshi Nishitani, Sony's senior vice president, acknowledged that the three companies had failed to reach an agreement, according to a Sony spokesman.
Meanwhile, Yoshihide Fujii, president and CEO of Toshiba Digital Media Network Co., confirmed that if the 0.1-mm disk format reaches satisfactory production and cost levels, unification based on the 0.1-mm cover layer was still possible. Still, industry sources said the format has yet to meet those requirements.
The HD DVD group said it will stick to its schedule for introducing HD DVD products later this year.
PS3 still Blu-ray?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 19, 2005, 07:38:17 PM
MSNBC.com
Matsushita tells Toshiba to give in to Blu-ray physical disc format
Quote
The president of Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd. said on Thursday it is up to Toshiba Corp. to yield its position in talks on a unified format for next-generation DVD technology, making clear that Matsushita and its partner Sony Corp. won’t budge.
“The talks continue, they have not collapsed,” Nakamura told a group of reporters at a get-together of industry executives in Tokyo. “But Matsushita and Sony have not changed their stance. We are waiting for Toshiba’s decision.”
The Blu-ray camp emphasizes the high recording capacity of its discs while HD-DVD promoters says its format would mean a less costly transition for the industry because it is very close to the structure of current discs.
“There is still a chance to create a new format, but we will not waver on the 0.1 mm point,” Nakamura said. “I call on them to bring up issues other than 0.1. Let’s talk about that.”
With companies from both camps gearing up to launch products compatible with their respective formats, the window of opportunity is closing fast.
Toshiba has unveiled plans to launch HD DVD players in the last quarter of 2005 while Sony announced plans this week to introduce its new PlayStation video game console in spring 2006 equipped with a Blu-ray disc drive.
“There is no time. If we can’t reach a compromise then (unification) itself will become more and more difficult,” Nakamura said.
with PS3 on the horizon and backing Blu-ray, I think it would be in Toshiba's besy interest to unify and get in on the money train before they get left behind with the 45-65 million+ PS3's about to be sold starting next year.
and I will also take that as an indirect hint that Nintendo's next-gen custom 12cm disc format will be based on Blu-ray technology.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 19, 2005, 08:35:29 PM
Same old news just a different day.
well you're right.....
Forbes.com
QuoteSupposedly some new leadership will put some life back into these negotiations.
Sony Corp, Matsushita Electric Industrial Co and Toshiba Corp may restart talks aimed at working out a common DVD format after their respective shareholders meetings are held later this month, Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported, citing sources familiar with the matter.
Sony's meeting is scheduled for June 22, Toshiba's for June 24 and Matsushita's for June 29. Sony Chairman and CEO Nobuyuki Idei will resign and be succeeded in both posts by Howard Stringer. In addition, Ryoji Chubachi will become the new president.
Toshiba Chairman Taizo Nishimuro will be replaced by current President Tadashi Okamura, with Senior Managing Director Atsutoshi Nishida being promoted to president.
The previous talks broke down because managing directors and lower-ranking officials from the three firms got bogged down in debate over which of the two formats excelled in technological terms, the newspaper noted.
Now the three manufacturers aim to send their senior officials to the negotiating table for a top-down approach, before moving on to another discussion on technological matters, the Nikkei quoted the sources as saying.
We still might be seeing a hybrid format in (a) Next-gen console(s).
Post by: couchmonkey on June 20, 2005, 11:29:54 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 20, 2005, 11:54:28 AM
Post by: Djunknown on June 20, 2005, 12:26:06 PM
As a whole, I'm still looking at it from a consumer's perspective. Why do I need more bleeding edge technology now? What good is these uber-discs without the hi-def tv and surround sound? With premium entertainment, there's a premium price that not everyone can afford.
I believe the PS3 will be pure Blu-ray at least when it comes to games. If nothing else, they'll flex their muscle just to say they did it. With the PS3 not labled as a pure game machine straight from Kutaragi's mouth, will this be enough to put Blu-ray on the map?
EDIT: I'm claiming ignorance here, but how would this hybrid unification idea work exactly?
Post by: IceCold on June 20, 2005, 01:13:17 PM
Quote
Kutaragi confirms end to Blu-Ray negotiations
Sony and Toshiba fail to reach agreement on unified next-gen disc format
Just weeks after announcing there was "little chance" of reaching an agreement on the issue of a unified next-gen disc format, SCE president Ken Kutaragi has confirmed that negotiations are at an end.
Speaking to Nikkei Electronics, Kutaragi said that it was "game over" for talks between Sony, which supports the Blu-Ray format, and HD-DVD supporter Toshiba.
Negotiations began back in February, but the two companies failed to reach an agreement on storage capacities. Blu-Ray discs can hold 50GB of data while HD-DVD discs only hold 30GB, but the HD-DVD camp argues that lower manufacturing costs make for a cheaper, more consumer-friendly product.
Earlier this month Kutaragi said the negotiations were troubled after Toshiba refused to accept Blu-Ray as the basis for a unified format. It now seems inevitable that both formats will hit the market when the next generation of DVD players rolls out at the end of the year, despite Sony's efforts to avoid another format war of the VHS vs. Betamax kind.
Kutaragi went on to discuss Sony's Cell networked processor, which will be used in the PlayStation 3 along with a range of other consumer electronics devices such as "smart TVs".
He told Nikkei Electronics that the microprocessor features eight synergistic processor elements or SPEs because the number eight is an "exponential aesthetic". However, only seven of these will be used as this is "the ultimate aesthetic" with regards to engineering - as announced by Sony at this year's E3, leaving one SPE unused should improve chip yield and slash production costs.
Interesting..
Post by: KDR_11k on June 20, 2005, 10:03:47 PM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 20, 2005, 10:43:54 PM
That man is living his fantasy and its everyone elses job around him to keep the fantasy alive.
similar to that movie 'Truman'
He is just being over arrogant instigator as I'm sure he doesn't have much input as to how the negotiations go
Post by: KDR_11k on June 22, 2005, 12:14:43 AM
Post by: nickmitch on June 22, 2005, 04:04:09 PM
Post by: Renny on June 28, 2005, 05:02:54 AM
Xbox 360 might incorporate HD-DVD
Looks like MS is already feeling the effects of perceived inferiority. Are they willing to screw their immediate fanbase to 'compete' with the PS3 in the numbers game?
'Our disc is bigger than yours.'
'We have more FPSes than you.'
Which to buy?
Post by: vudu on June 28, 2005, 08:57:40 AM
QuoteHow would that work? Would they have to sell a separate detachable HD-DVD player to those who purchased the original Xbox 360?
“The initial shipments of Xbox 360 will be based on today's DVD format,” Gates confirmed. “We are looking at whether future versions of Xbox 360 will incorporate an additional capability of an HD DVD player or something else.”
Xbox 360 is going to have the most successful launch ever.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 28, 2005, 09:35:22 AM
Post by: Toruresu on June 28, 2005, 10:14:22 AM
Post by: stevey on June 28, 2005, 10:49:51 AM
Easy, MS will f*ck the early buyer and make them rebuy it because they know early buyer have lot $$$ to spend and late buyer only have ¢¢¢. Just look at the price of there game 59.99.
Post by: IceCold on June 28, 2005, 10:32:17 PM
Dual layered 12cm optical discs.
Post by: KDR_11k on June 29, 2005, 01:22:36 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 10, 2005, 05:32:22 PM
Toshiba says MS to use HD-DVD and just hasn't announced it yet
Quote
June 30th, 2005
Here’s an interesting tid-bit: Toshiba was showing off their Fall line-up the other day and demoed a HD-DVD that was being created in conjunction with Microsoft. This, of course, was well before the official Xbox software announcement, but now attendees are starting to wonder if references to the device’s ability to download games and play them may be tied into the Xbox software deal.
Oh, and the Toshiba folks also spilled the beans on HD-DVD and the Xbox 360, saying that the next-gen console will use the new format for its media and whining about how Microsoft is dragging their feet on the official announcement.
take this for what its worth......
Post by: IceCold on July 10, 2005, 07:20:33 PM
I thought MS was using DVDs at first then switching to HD-DVD.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 10, 2005, 07:49:14 PM
