Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 11, 2005, 01:06:23 PM
Hotties for Rent
Post by: Gamecubeguy on April 11, 2005, 01:58:45 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 11, 2005, 02:37:20 PM
I find the article tends to assume quite a lot when it comes to the guy gamers. Mind you, I've never been at a tradeshow like E3, so I'm not wholly aware of the kinds of gamers that do go. However, the gamers I know and associate with, myself included, are all decent guys and have all touched women before. I'm sure there are plenty of guys who differ from us, but there's still hope in some of us, girl gamers.
Also, I very much doubt you have to directly compete with the booth girls. Any of the guy gamers who are so shaky around a booth babe would no doubt be ecstatic if a girl would stoop to their level and go out with them. Face it, most girl gamers wouldn't even be willing to. But if they did, I seriously doubt the booth babe ideal would be kept in mind. He's smart enough to know he's never going to get that.
As for doing away with booth babes, I'm sure that'd be swell. But I get this feeling that the whole female body thing is much more thoroughly integrated into our culture than that, and we'll have to change quite a lot of other stuff before we even get near to changing the booth babe ordeal.
Otherwise, I mostly agree with the article.
Post by: gally on April 11, 2005, 02:48:58 PM
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Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Also, I very much doubt you have to directly compete with the booth girls. Any of the guy gamers who are so shaky around a booth babe would no doubt be ecstatic if a girl would stoop to their level and go out with them. Face it, most girl gamers wouldn't even be willing to. But if they did, I seriously doubt the booth babe ideal would be kept in mind. He's smart enough to know he's never going to get that.
Clever paragraph. Most people have to choose between substance or looks - do you want someone who makes a good companion, or simply a good picture?
I wonder though how many of these nerds (by which I am specifically referring only to those who slobber over booth babes) can appreciate that question. When I was in middle school, with hormones raging, I naturally tended to unfortunately go after girls who were the best LOOKING, and not necessarily the best people to be around. However, I grew out of that phase. I don't know if all of these guys have.
I think real life exposure to females who actually enjoy video games and are fun to be around could help shatter the "booth babe" image for a lot of guys, and that's something that will only happen over time, and likely on its own. There's nothing we can do to speed up the process, is there?
Post by: KnowsNothing on April 11, 2005, 02:56:54 PM
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However, the gamers I know and associate with, myself included, are all decent guys and have all touched women before.
Are you......bragging? Just because I hide behind the fake-belief that girls have cooties just to mask the fact that they find me REPULSIVE is no reason to bray, donkey-style, about your ability to touch women. i have ice cream ='D
I'm all for getting rid of women in general booth babes. Either that or include booth boys in all the fun as weapons. I can see EA sabotaging other companies by sending over a fleet half naked men over to their booths.
Post by: Karl Castaneda #2 on April 11, 2005, 03:24:25 PM
Post by: johnhummel on April 11, 2005, 03:38:02 PM
Just to let you know, I enjoyed reading your article on
PlanetGamecube. If it makes you feel any better, every year I've gone
to E3 - as first a fan then a journalist - I've mentioned the same
issues, and even made a point of admonishing various booths that
seemed to have no purpose than to have Booth Babes treating gamers
like they were all 14 year old's who's only contact with women was
their imagination and their right hand. Sorry to be crude, but I've
actually always been offended by the booth babe system, since it tells
me that marketers think I'm nothing more than a person who can't think
above their testicles.
So, I don't know if it helps, but if it makes you feel any better,
there are guys who are married and have up and coming gamer daughters
who do care, and would love to see nothing more than every single
Booth Babe thrown out of the E3 floor. Or, at least give them more
useful jobs.
Like, I don't know, the cafeteria. At least that would keep the
drooling hormone guys off the floor
.John Hummel
PS: I sent this in an email too, so forgive me for using the power of Cut and Paste.
Post by: King of Twitch on April 11, 2005, 03:42:44 PM
Just because you're a girl doesn't mean you have to write about girl gamers ya know
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 11, 2005, 04:21:30 PM
1) Despite her best efforts, I felt somewhat offended as a guy gamer while reading this. Maybe I am in the large minority by not oggling booth babes, but most expo-goers who spend half of their time posing with girls don't come off as looking cool.
2) Bonnie has never actually been to an E3 yet. Perhaps I am mistaken, but all of her expertese in the field is second-hand. As such, it seems the booth babe presence has been blown out of proportion in her mind (though I could just be oblivious). Some booths (like Nintendo) have "classy" booth babes that I respect and am friendly with, and do seem to be casual gamers (or at least interested enough to learn). Perhaps the best thing I can say about Nintendo's female representatives is that I always see familiar faces from year to year--heck, one recognized me at GDC this year.
Many have developers largely filling the "booth babe" role of presenting the company's games. Frankly, most of the gaudy booth babes are acting as snake oil saleswomen. I wish she had waited until after E3 2005 so that she could stack her mental picture against her experience of the real deal. Perhaps it would not have changed her opinion at all, but it would have given this editorial more ammunition.
Post by: mantidor on April 11, 2005, 04:31:54 PM
youd be surprised
Post by: vherub on April 11, 2005, 06:28:20 PM
(I would imagine that companies have at least briefly debated going so far as to exchange sexual favors for sales) Instead, booth babes occupy the same strata as hooter's waitresses or beauty pagents- an argument can be made that they degrade women.
The worry might also be that at a socially awkward/impressionable age, objectifying women creates a future pattern of degradation. But so many other facets of day to day life advance the same things it is difficult to point out cause and effect.
Personally, I think companies would be more successful if they hired females to sit down and game with people. They don't have to dress up, in fact, it would almost be better if they were not dressed up in any way and casually would approach guys and ask if they want to play a game. That could do wonders for a fellow's self confidence.
But does gaming prostitution cross a moral line?
Post by: Djunknown on April 11, 2005, 07:40:34 PM
Now speaking as a gamer who checks for gaming news, booth babes are the last thing on my mind. I have to sift through all sorts of media that sites such as trusty PGC during the e3 rush, teh BooTh baBe has to wait in line...
As cliche as it sounds, money talks and sex sells. I'm claiming ignorance here, but what they're paid that whole weekend is probablly more than what Joe Schmoe working at Walmart makes in a month. Its a case of supply and demand. Companies demand snake-oil salewomen, women demand monetary compensation. Companies supply said compensation (a generous amount I assume), women supply the crowd with freebies and photo-ops.
Quote
But does gaming prostitution cross a moral line?
I dunno, but if the girl posing as Kasumi makes you a proposition after that photo-op [insert morality here]
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By doing so, and by presenting only gorgeous, skinny women, aren’t we perpetuating hurtful stereotypes about beauty?
That's another can of worms which can be discussed well beyond the forum of gaming...
Its a great editorial as always, its a shame this couldn't come out a little closer to e3. We haven't heard if PGC's going this year, but maybe it wouldn't hurt to get short interviews quotes from the babes themselves this year maybe some pithy comments on DVD . In then end though, it really is all about the games. At least, it should be...
Post by: Smash_Brother on April 11, 2005, 07:45:12 PM
You see, having it been made clear just how far companies will go to try and sell you a product, especially by targeting your desires as a male, well, it sickens and infuriates me. It's like boxing when you have a cut under your eye and your opponent keeps punching it: they try to take advantage of a weakness and it only results in angering you.
Continuing with the boxing metaphor, when a company presents its product WITHOUT trying to sell it with sex, that's a "clean fight". I assume, no, I'm FORCED to understand that they feel their product stands so well on its own that they don't need to resort to methods of sale other than simple trial. In other words, my opponent knows the cut is there, but he ain't gonna punch it because he knows he can win the fight without it. My opponent (aka the product being marketed) is just that good.
So, when I see women being thrust into my face when I'm considering making a purchase, it immediately lights up the red flag in my mind.
My advice: let it light your red flag too.
-SB
Post by: Ms.Pikmin on April 11, 2005, 08:25:10 PM
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Originally posted by: TheYoungerPlumber
but most expo-goers who spend half of their time posing with girls don't come off as looking cool.
*looks over at Berto2k's avatar*
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 11, 2005, 08:29:26 PM
"Put on a HAPPY FACE!" -- JOKER
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on April 11, 2005, 08:51:50 PM
What are you, high? But seriously, PGC has had a sizeable team at E3 since I joined in 2001. Yes, we will be there ;-)
Post by: Termin8Anakin on April 11, 2005, 09:23:38 PM
I actually enjoyed reading that editorial, I must say. Although there are quite a few generalisations in there that I have to disagree with. Obviously...not all us guys oggle at girls and leap at the chance to try and grope them simply because we're given the opportunity to.
But come on, give a geek a chance. If he feels he has to affirm his masculinity by doing that, let him hahahaha.
I think I should stop before i start over-analysing and say this:
You should stop over-analysing. lol.
It is, after all, just a marketing ploy. Guys only do what they do at E3 because they're getting into the spirit of it. Sure there's a tsunami of testosterone flooding everywhere, but its all for the fun of it. I'm sure they realise that the booth babes don't REALLY have feelings for them (except to sell their products) and if they think they do, then they're dopes. I'm sure Bert knows this too. Don't you, Bert
But it is quite pathetic the amount of attention (degrading or otherwise) that they get......as some guys really do seem to not realise the fact that Booth Babes are not the attractions, the games are. And NO sexy, scantily clad chick can hide a bad game.
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 11, 2005, 09:35:06 PM
Post by: Bloodworth on April 11, 2005, 09:38:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Smash_Brother
Continuing with the boxing metaphor, when a company presents its product WITHOUT trying to sell it with sex, that's a "clean fight". I assume, no, I'm FORCED to understand that they feel their product stands so well on its own that they don't need to resort to methods of sale other than simple trial. In other words, my opponent knows the cut is there, but he ain't gonna punch it because he knows he can win the fight without it. My opponent (aka the product being marketed) is just that good.
So, when I see women being thrust into my face when I'm considering making a purchase, it immediately lights up the red flag in my mind.
My advice: let it light your red flag too.
-SB
This is absolutely true. With very few exceptions, the games with the "hottest" booth babes attached to them tend to be titles that no one would pay attention to otherwise. See: BloodRayne, DOA Volleyball, The Hobbit (believe it or not), SRS, and so on.
Post by: Bloodworth on April 11, 2005, 09:41:50 PM
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 11, 2005, 09:44:28 PM
"How about this: Instead of changing your outlook, you could try casually changing a guy’s. Don’t come out and tell him to stop caring so much; just turn his attention elsewhere. Or, better yet, introduce him to an actual, live girl gamer he can connect with as an awesome person, not idealize as a sexy stranger."
I mean, you almost went as far as saying this was all a female insecurity problem, but then you proposed a solution of getting rid of what made women insecure? And not only that, but you suggested that women manipulate men so they'd feel better about themselves... and not only that, but you suggested they conceal their true purpose as well while doing it. Come on. You have to admit that's kind of underhanded... if you'd directly adressed the men reading the article, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Post by: oohhboy on April 11, 2005, 10:38:23 PM
Now you were thinking, maybe they weren't hot. Well no S#%^ they were hot. But any social interaction of any kind enhances the gaming experience. Although I would be adverse to half naked men next to me. If we are at the swimming pool or beach I wouldn't give it a second thought. That is how I am wired, and nothing is going to change that.
But if it would benifit girls going to Expos, I would not object in anyway to the inclusion of Booth guys. I am all for equal rights and very anti feminist. Feminist are the last group of people anybody should listen to for advice of any sort in this regard. Like any kind of extermists, are blind by idealogocal doctrine.
Post by: gally on April 12, 2005, 02:49:03 AM
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Originally posted by: oohhboy
I am all for equal rights and very anti feminist. Feminist are the last group of people anybody should listen to for advice of any sort in this regard. Like any kind of extermists, are blind by idealogocal doctrine.
This is a matter of changing definitions and perception. The word "feminist" means, to some, equal rights. To others it means benefits for only one side. Radical "feminists" are likely the reason for the change in definition. That's what I don't like about words like that. It's difficult to say them and get your point across because you have no idea how it will be interpreted.
I don't think there's anything we can do about the fact that, sadly, sex does sell. But I still hold that over time, more and more males will meet females who share common interests, and will therefore learn, through experience, to respect them as human beings and to recognize that booth babes are just some absurd fantasy.
Post by: Matt54321 on April 12, 2005, 05:36:26 AM
I do not want to sound like i am tearing the entire idea of the article apart, let me restate I agree with the opinions - I just think they are exagerated greatly and secondly a very real issue with soceity rather than games. My final comment, Bonnie alot more geeks get laid than you think, and alot less objectify women than you think. I believe your standpoint is detrimental to the way girls fit into games/society by thrusting an insecure weak opinion on girls everywhere. Men are not like you make them out to be, as if they should be feared by women (gamers).
Post by: cronotrigger913 on April 12, 2005, 08:50:06 AM
Post by: BigJim on April 12, 2005, 11:43:20 AM
If I am completely dense and missing the point, let me know. I'm the first to admit I can be thick headed.
E3 isn't just a party and supersized arcade. People are there because they have jobs to do. The social aspects are a bonus. E3 is bigger than life. The companies are all doing what they can do get the attention of the show goers. Anyone can tell you how much of an information overload it is. But at the end of the day, and despite the party atmosphere, the people there are mostly industry media and they will generally forget the babes just as quickly as they were spotted.
The final point was a bit odd. (re: "...the best and most important thing a girl can do is try not to feel intimidated.") Was it a message to the women gamers? I mean, E3 is not a public affair, and any attention drawn to the babes are just bonus/alternative content for the media to provide. I guess my point is that, yeah, there are booth babes there. But so what? It's not something for anybody to get insecure over. The author, having not attended an E3 yet, may not understand how quickly dismissed the booth babes generally are.
It is a cheap hook? Of course. But I think their general relevance is a little exaggerated. They're all adults, and the journalists know that they're just hired, talking billboards. Despite the opinion to the contrary at times, men aren't complete apes. We wouldn't confuse booth babes with legitimate gamers that just happen to be women. And, they (the babes and the journalists) are there to do their jobs. It's not Saturday night bar hopping, nor are the babes being made superstars. They help liven the mood, but they're just one of MANY backdrops to the products being pitched.
Post by: gally on April 12, 2005, 12:38:21 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Matt54321
If a girl is being treated differently its likely becuz she is acting like she is different and a 'girl gamer' not just a gamer.
I take issue with that. I have seen with my own eyes boys who act immature the instant a female enters their midst, even if she is just another player who happens to have been to be revealed to be female. I have heard stories of females who use voice chat in online games being hit upon or harassed by horny teenage boys. Obviously we males are not all apes, as someone else said, but there are people out there who just don't get it, and we can't forget that either.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 12, 2005, 04:19:18 PM
1. All of Bonnie's editorials are about being a girl gamer because that's why we hired her. :-) She wanted to write this series of articles, and we thought it would be interesting. I'd say it has been very fruitful so far.
2. Of course PGC is going to E3 this year. We have fifteen people registered! Biggest crowd in about three years, I believe.
3. Unfortunately, Bonnie will not be going to E3 this year. She did a lot of research for this article though. I dug up a video clip about Nintendo's booth babes from our old E3 2002 DVD and sent it to her. She also looked through a lot of booth babe photo galleries at other sites and read up on other articles on the subject (though I think there are relatively few serious ones).
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 12, 2005, 06:20:15 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on April 13, 2005, 08:14:44 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on April 13, 2005, 09:43:33 AM
I have quite a few friends who are currently addicted to World of Warcraft. A couple of them are girls, and they disguise themselves as guys, simply to avoid the whole barrage of horny geek guys who would follow them around everywhere talking dirty and asking for marriage proposals or whatever. It's quite surreal.
I even surprised myself....whenever I noticed the presence of a female gamer (or a chick that likes anime), I automatically wanted to try and start a conversation with her.
One thing i have noticed is that in real life, whenever there's a girl who likes games/computers/anime then there will most likely be a whole group of guy friends following her around. I know, because I used to be one of those kinda guys.
It gets REALLY awkward when one of the guys in that group decides to ask the girl out. It just breaks up the whole friendship.
And its REALLY confusing to the guys (most of whom have never had girlfriends) cause they think the girl genuinely likes them or something.
You can't blame a geek for acting that way. A girl (and maybe a hot one at that) that likes the same things they do are a rarity. Blubbered speech, crude sex jokes, bad flirting and instant infatuation should be expected.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 13, 2005, 09:53:32 AM
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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Jonny has the best booth babe in his avatar, anyway.
A WINNER IS YOU.
I'm not much for taking pics with people on the show floor anyway, but if I do, it's going to be with somebody freaking awesome like Sakamoto or Peter Main.
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on April 13, 2005, 09:54:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
I don't think it would be such a problem that she writes articles based around girl gamers if she didn't have more editorials than the rest of the staff has, combined. For every editorial you have recently, there's a girl gamer editorial by Bonnie to go with it.
If without Bonnie's contributions, we already have more editorials in 2005 than we did for all of 2004. There have just been more, period. Bonnie is a special case because, again, she was hired specifically to write editorials.
Post by: Hostile Creation on April 13, 2005, 04:18:37 PM
Post by: Holly on April 14, 2005, 11:12:59 PM
i am a 31 year old mother of four that has gamed since age 5 on atari, and the t.v box, lol. graphics since then have changed for the better
i have gamed many years to say the least. my honey, and my children all game. we own xbox, gamecube, ps2, p.c, 64, SNES, dreamcast, gameboys, you think of it, we probably own it. we game from old school to new school. my 8 year old beat Halo 1 and 2 in 2 days. and that is not straight. he has school and chores. we are serious gamers! just listing for a quick insight on just how serious.however, in those years, something has not changed. it is the fact that gaming is made more for men.
i, for once, would love to see a girl game that is seriously put together. i have played all the TR's because i love the adventure of them. but please.., if i was walking about in a jungle dressed like Lara, well let us just say it wouldn't be for long, lol
i am currently playing splinter cell. sam fisher is not running around in a thong speedo, with flip flops and snorkel wear, now is he? and i wouldn't want him to, trust me. i do agree with you on this part of your article.i would like to comment on "how do booth babes make wifes and g/f's feel?"
if a lady does not feel comfortable enough to go to E3 with their honey and stay confident throughout, then she is simply with the wrong man. models are everywhere. certain men, not all, are excited when they are able to see the model dressed up like their favorite female character. like a big kid. children are excited to go see their favorite characters dressed up. why can the big kids not be? i see, it's the whole reason behind it all? the children aren't looking at batman and batgirl for the same reason? no, but they still do shake and they do still have sweaty palms. some men look at ladies in that way and others do not.
i do not feel intimidated at all from beautiful ladies. intimidation is a issue that resides in their own. games are made up for fantasy. as is a lady going to victoria secrets and purchasing something for their man to see them in for oh lets say 3 seconds, LOL. overated, yes. can we do something about it? uh no. women have been looked upon like this for years, and years. if a lady feels like she is being treated unfairly because she has looks and that is all her man looks at her for, and she wants more, then she is with the wrong man. that is a true problem. people are with people for wrong reasons all too much. however, all men are not the same. they have a basic attraction to us girlies because of the fact that we are the opposite. i mean, don't we want the men to have that? we can not change the natural instinct. they do have minds of their own though. some are attracted to looks as others are attracted to kindness, or brains, humor, etc.. it just all depends on the man.
sweaty men at E3, uh no thank you. we don't need them thinking "yeah, it's not fair why am i not an E3 model" than it might just go to court and yadayadayada...eeek! lol
chaos never ends.as for booth babes. theyre just dressing up to play the part of a "game creator". this is where we need to tackle. yeah, the game creators are the ones we need to turn the spotlight on. i mean they do a wonderful job. there are a lot of cool games out there. but, like you, i would like to see one made for women that does not exist of a female running around in a too short top and short shorts, flipping and jumping and pushing rocks that are thousand times bigger than herself when at the same time her clothes stay intact and her make-up seems to hold up wonderfully in the humidity of the jungle. i mean come on. the realistic measures need some work. serious lady gamers such as i do become offened at such things. the way some of the "game creators" make the outlook of women is a shame.
taking booth babes out of E3? how come? us women are what men love
you would be surprised how much men actually look up to us in many ways. i do not think all the men at E3 really pay all that much attention to them. the young crowd or the i am just looking at life for fun right now crowd sure do. you have my support on that one. but there are a lot of serious gamers that look at the booth babes as nothing more than a booth babe. all in all, i enjoyed your article.
