Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 26, 2005, 12:27:47 PM
Quote
Sony ordered to pay $90.7 mil. in patent infringement suit
Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 15:37 JST
LOS ANGELES — The U.S. District Court in Oakland, California, has ordered Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and its U.S. unit to pay $90.7 million in damages to Immersion Corp. for patent infringement over controllers used with PlayStation game consoles.
In the ruling handed down Thursday, the federal court also ordered Sony Computer Entertainment and Sony Entertainment America Inc. to stop selling the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 game consoles using Dualshock controllers as well as more than 40 game software products. (Kyodo News)
This has gotta hurt SONY's already bleeding pockets(Cell R&D and PSP losses per unit/warranties)
I don't know why they didn't just liscense the technology like Logitech & MS, or just implement it differently like Nintendo(who also has a patent on their implementation).
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 26, 2005, 12:31:51 PM
So how is Ninty getting out of getting sued?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 26, 2005, 12:35:26 PM
Immersion didn't patent the technology, just the implementation of the technology.
Nintendo implemented differently and then patented it.
Logitech & Microsoft liscense the implementation of the technology from Immersion, Sony forgot to look both way b4 crossing the road & now they got hit by a truck!!
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 26, 2005, 01:30:14 PM
Post by: Galford on March 26, 2005, 01:51:26 PM
Post by: Talon on March 26, 2005, 04:21:01 PM
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WHAT THE HELL!? This is just downright dirty, considering Immersion waited this freaking long to complain about it...I HATE companies that patent something just for money...
You'll probably find that this court case has been going on for quite sometime and the ruling has only just happened now. I wouldnt be suprised if SONY has dragged out this in the courts for years.
Post by: Djunknown on March 26, 2005, 04:52:23 PM
Man, this as shocking as when Greece banned videogames to curb gambling. No doubt, Sony's going to appeal, or at least settle.
If the descion holds up, I can imagine a scenario where some dude behind a game shop with a trench coat saying: "Psst.... I got PS2 dual shocks man. 50 dollars bro, they don't even make 'em like this anymore..."
Not only that, their banning 40 titles? Question is, which titles, and how does this fit with the lawsuit?
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 26, 2005, 05:11:11 PM
of the controllers, but that still doesn't explain how it would have anything to do with the lawsuit, considering that its just software.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 26, 2005, 10:17:24 PM
Nintendo stays unaffected by this since they were the first to invent, implement and patent this stuff. Immersion's patents explicitely reference Nintendo's patents and point out the differences.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 26, 2005, 11:56:57 PM
I don't know wether to laugh or to cry!
This is possibly the worst news for Sony....well ever. What does this mean for their PS3? Will the controller look totally different from what we have today? If it will, that's a big bummer again. Mostly everyone I know prefers the PS2 controller to any other controller out there. I, myself, like the Cube controller for it's comfortability, but the PS2 has functionality.
Again, too bad so sad.
Post by: ruby_onix on March 27, 2005, 12:27:34 AM
So this ruling is "on hold" while Sony appeals it. By the time Sony runs out of appeals, they will have discarded their Dual Shock roots (which they've already said they're doing with the PS3). It won't matter that they will eventually be ordered to stop making Dual Shocks. The only consequence is that their fine will keep increasing.
As-is, Sony has built up $60 billion on their credit line lately. Because of this, it will be $60.09 billion. Sony has bigger problems than just this ruling.
As for why this isn't affecting Nintendo, here's a basic history lesson. Feel free to correct me anywhere I'm off.
Shortly before the N64's launch, word got out that it was going to have "analog". People "in the know" said it couldn't be done. Not yet. Maybe in a few years. It just couldn't be true. But it was true, and it kicked butt.
The PlayStation didn't have analog. Not wanting to be left behind, Sony said "Oh %#$". Threw out their old controller, and tried to one-up Nintendo with their new "Dual Analog" controller (it was only available breifly in Japan).
Then Nintendo was seen frequently talking to Immersion. And was devilishly grinning, pointing at the expansion slot in their controller. Immersion was making "force feedback" devices. They made large joysticks that had complex mechanisms linked to the stick, which could let you do wonderous things, like let you feel what it's like to stir a bucket of paint. They also cost many thousands of dollars. People in the know said "*$@% no. No #&$@ way. I don't care what miracles Nintendo has pulled off, with their '$200 SGI Workstation' and 'analog controls' and all that jazz, there is no freaking way they're putting force feedback into a videogame console. It's just not possible."
Then Nintendo unveiled (and patented) the Rumble Pak. A motor with messed up balance.
The industry started blurting out a mixture of "WTF! That's not REAL force feedback! Ha ha ha! I knew it! I knew I wasn't wrong!" and "That's so simple. Why didn't anyone think of this before."
Immersion apparently said "WTF? It's so simple. And it was right under our noses. We were looking in the wrong direction." Immersion then apparently grabbed all the "old junk" laying around their office and ran to the Patent Office.
Apparently, Nintendo holds the patent on force feedback, by way of an unbalanced motor. Immersion holds the patent on a balanced motor spinning an unbalanced weight. Nintendo was apparently happy to let Immersion have that patent, since they were the ones who unintentionally gave Nintendo the idea for it in the first place, and Immersion began licencing out their brand of rumble technology.
Sony saw Nintendo's Rumble Pak unveiling, and said "Oh %#$. Our controller isn't expandable. We don't have force feedback, or rumble, or whatever you want to call it. We're screwed again. Quick, throw out that Dual Analog before anyone else buys it, and redesign the controller again."
Sony looked at the Rumble Pak and saw that they could seperate the weight from the motor, thus getting around Nintendo's patent. They launched the "Dual Shock" and tried to patent it. The Patent Office said "Bzzzzt! Patent denied! That technology already belongs to Immersion". Sony shrugged, and strolled off, whistling nonchalantly.
When Immersion noticed that Sony's Dual Shock was unpatented, and was using their technology, they started suing Sony.
Microsoft walked blindly into the situation, assuming that it was just "the thing to do" when making a console, but when Immersion called them on it, they apologized and settled out-of-court.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 27, 2005, 02:00:10 AM
Post by: Renny on March 27, 2005, 05:56:22 AM
Post by: Robotor on March 27, 2005, 08:45:42 AM
The contorller history is funny to me. Sony tries to one up Nintendo by adding another stick. Can you see the executives going over that one, "TWO STICK WILL BE THE WINNAR!" It's become standard though, so I guess it was a good idea in it's own right.
Post by: Grant10k on March 27, 2005, 09:33:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Renny
So what makes Immersion's or Nintendo's patent unique from other things which vibrate? It's all the same principle, right? Is it simply because of its implementation in entertainment? ...Interactive entertainment. ...Electronic, interactive entertainment.
Nintendo patented an unbalanced motor, the inside of the moter has more weight on one side than the other, Immersion patented a balanced motor, but with an unbalanced weight on it. The diffrence is, Nintendo made their own special moters, and Immersion used regular moters with extra stuff on them.
If you've ever opened a dual shock controller, as i have (because it was broken, because it isn't very well built) then their controllers have a little half moon shaped weight on the top of a regular motor, same as Microsoft's controller (i opened that one too, same reason but to a lesser extent) they do the same thing. Microsoft probably opened both controller and rumble pak and realized that if they copy sony, it would cost them less money. they wouln't have to make specialized motors, just existing ones with half moon weights on them.
EDIT: oh, do you mean against other things like massagers and stuff? Probably because they don't care. You can only sue for the amount of money that you would have lost had the infrenging (sp) companey not infrenged (sp). console controller sales effect massage sales in no way, shape, or form. So massagers loose zero dollars, so there is no reason to sue.
Post by: ruby_onix on March 27, 2005, 09:54:12 AM
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So what makes Immersion's or Nintendo's patent unique from other things which vibrate? It's all the same principle, right? Is it simply because of its implementation in entertainment?
Yes, near as I can figure. They both patented the idea of using an interactive videogame's input device to output a tactile "force feedback" sensation, by way of... (and then Nintendo and Immersion differ).
I think that Sony's "Dual Analog" was a "gimmick" feature, but when they added the rumble times two, they realized that they could make one rumble weak and one rumble strong (they both use the same kind of basic motor, but one of them has a half-moon weight that's bigger than the other), and they really hit upon something there, because it worked better, and had more depth and control.
The gimmick led to a controller revolution.
Edit:
Quote
So sony just completly disregarded the fact that the Dual Shock controller was breaking laws? Man that's just terrible.
Well, I may have exaggerated Sony's bad faith.
Looking at my grey "PSX" Dual Shock and my white "PSone" Dual Shock, the white one has patent numbers written on the back of it (but probably not one that covers the rumble). The grey one says nothing about patents. I'm sure if I dug up my old PlayStation box (it's buried and I'm too lazy), the interior of the instructions would be plastered with the term "Patent Pending". It means that Sony applied for a patent, but they're waiting to hear back about it.
By the time Sony's attempt to patent their non-Nintendo style of rumble was shot down, the Dual Shock was probably in more homes than their basic non-analog controller was. It would have been suicide to pull it from the market.
The question is, why didn't they just settle with Immersion? I'm guessing they either thought they could win somehow, or they thought that if they dragged it out long enough it wouldn't matter anymore.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 27, 2005, 10:25:40 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 27, 2005, 11:55:05 PM
QuoteThere are alot of sequels in the list, but why not all of the sequles?
Japan Today reports that in addition to a hefty, $90.7-million fine for damages, Sony Computer Entertainment may be forbidden from manufacturing, using, selling or importing into the United States any of their products that include computer controlled vibrating motors because those products infringe on patents held by Immersion Corp. The products in question:
Playstation consoles, Dualshock controllers, and those games found by the jury to infringe…. A Bug’s Life; Amplitude; Ape Escape; Atlantis: The Lost Empire; Bloody Roar 2; Cool Boarders 3; Cool Boarders 4; Cool Boarders 2001; Crash Bash; Crash Team Racing; Drakan: The Ancients’ Gate; Emperor’s New Groove; Extermination; FantaVision; Final Fantasy X; Formula One 2001; The Getaway; Gran Turismo; Gran Turismo 2; Gran Turismo 3; Grand Theft Auto: Vice City; Grand Theft Auto 3; Grind Session; ICO; Jak & Daxter; Kinetica; Kingdom Hearts; Legend of the Dragoon; The Mark of Kri; Medal of Honor Frontline; Medievil 2; Metal Gear Solid 2; Monster’s, Inc.; Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racoonus; SOCOM Navy Seals; Speed Punks; Spyro: Ripto’s Rage; Spyro: Year of the Dragon; Stuart Little 2; Syphon Filter 2; Syphon Filter 3; Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 3; Twisted Metal: Black; Twisted Metal 4; Twisted Metal: Small Brawl; Treasure Planet; and War of the Monsters
ie. GT 1-3 but why not 4?
ie. GTA 3 & VC but why not SA
and didn't Amplitude have a sequel?? why isn't that on the list?
Final Fantasy X but not VII-IX or XI
Tony Hawk 3 but not THUG 1 or 2?
only one game from the MoH series?
Well anyway this list just seems kinda random, can anybody make a connection as to why these games and what they have to do with the patent that all others games don't?
edit: I think I just counted 47 games on the list, but I could be wrong
Post by: oohhboy on March 28, 2005, 03:48:15 AM
To introduce the games that have been produced since then would drag on the case indifinately.
The reason for the baning is that the products are illegel in the sense that they aren't lisensed and considering that a lisence has not been granted seeing that Sony is not interested in even applying this is the only legel consequnce for not having the said lisence.
The damages Sony has been ordered to pay is for the lisecning fees Immersion would have recived from Sony for the games published up to filing. Immersion would probaly continue the sue after the current order has been enforced for the games pubished since then.
Sony is lucky that the legel system moves slower than game development or else virtually all PS2/PS1 games and dual shocks would have to be pulled from stores everywhere. Ps2 games would be unpublishable unless Rumble feature was removed and console sales hit Zero since you can get cotrollers for them.
I am guessing Immersion won't settle for what they got right now. They have a excellent case and this order is just for the games since filing. Immersion needs speed right now for maximum leverage. The moment Immersion can get it enforced they can take them to the cleaners. 90 Million would look like chicken feed.
Although if Sony does stall long enough for another solution, Immersion would still get 90 Million and probaly more from games produced so far.
Post by: Pale on March 28, 2005, 04:11:51 AM
This is all too weird.
Post by: nitsu niflheim on March 28, 2005, 09:55:20 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 28, 2005, 03:00:42 PM
This may have something to do with next generation controllers. This court decision surly will have some affect on Sony's plans.
Post by: Shorty McNostril on March 28, 2005, 08:41:30 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on March 28, 2005, 09:17:20 PM
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 28, 2005, 11:23:56 PM
Post by: oohhboy on March 29, 2005, 12:38:00 AM
The ruling's most immediate impact would be apparent once it is enforced. PS2/PSX sales would be nailed to the floor at zero save second hand and black market in the US.
If the sales ban is enforced, it would produce some really funky results in the sales charts. Like a "What if senario" with Nintendo Vs MS only world. it would make for an interesting economic study.
About that 60 Billion dollar debt. Interest. At 5% non-compounding comes in at 3 Billion dollars a year. Thats 3 billion dollars thrown out the window every year.
Post by: Ian Sane on March 29, 2005, 06:25:15 AM
Post by: MaleficentOgre on March 29, 2005, 06:38:47 AM
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 29, 2005, 10:33:17 AM
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There are third party titles listed. How can they rule that a third party game can't be sold anymore? The third party just makes the game for the console specs. It's not like they have anything to do with Sony using someone else's patent.
Well, the game utilized the illegal technology. The games would be allowed on the other systems easily, but until Sony changes the technology used in the controllers (or win the lawsuit, whatever) they're still responsible for the same crime, I imagine.
Post by: Don'tHate742 on March 29, 2005, 10:56:24 AM
Post by: Pale on March 29, 2005, 11:08:08 AM
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 29, 2005, 11:12:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: Hostile CreationQuote
Well, the game utilized the illegal technology. The games would be allowed on the other systems easily, but until Sony changes the technology used in the controllers (or win the lawsuit, whatever) they're still responsible for the same crime, I imagine.
Actually I believe this is the second time Sony has lost this lawsuit. I think they first lost in Oct. '04 and was fined 80something million, appealed and now its 90.7 mil. I saw a link somewhere with the exact info but I'm too lazy to look it up
EDIT:Quote
In July, 2003, Microsoft settled with Immersion for $26 million, getting a stake in the company at the same time. Sony has decided to instead fight the lawsuit and back in September of 2004 the courts decided in favor of Immersion and ordered Sony to pay $82 million for the infringement. The new figure of $90.7 million includes $8.7 million of interest.
In its defense, Sony has argued that the technology being used in the Dual Shock is both simple and is taken from prior art that was around from before Immersion's patents. It has also countered that several of the uses have come from in-house development. So far it is looking like these arguments are falling on deaf ears and that as Sony will likely appeal to a higher court this case will take even longer to settle itself.
Post by: Hostile Creation on March 29, 2005, 11:35:09 AM
Generally doesn't matter. You're supposed to know what you're doing, especially when it comes to stuff like patents. You can't just make stuff and hope there's nothing wrong with it, you're supposed to check it out.
Post by: KDR_11k on March 29, 2005, 10:14:36 PM
Post by: couchmonkey on March 30, 2005, 09:27:41 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on March 30, 2005, 04:44:59 PM
Post by: ruby_onix on March 30, 2005, 06:26:08 PM
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Victor Viegas: On September 21, 2004, the jury reached a meaningful verdict, a unanimous verdict. They found that 16 claims of two patents were both infringed and valid, and they awarded us damages of $82 million. The judge's decision [this week] was consistent with the jury's findings, and she added to that interest of $8.7 million, for a total award of $90.7 million.
GS: You sound pleased.
VV: We're happy that she eliminated or dismissed a number of defenses and arguments made by Sony. I wouldn't call it a victory. [The decision] is still subject to appeals, number one. Number two, it's a judgment based on a verdict of $82 million, which is a 1.37 percent royalty for infringing products that were sold. Our typical license is approximately 5 percent of the wholesale selling price.
GS: Sony got quite a bargain in the decision.
VV: That's right. It will be hard to call it a real victory because it's a lower royalty rate than we would be happy with.
So that $8.7 million is just interest on the $82 million that Immersion won last time, and Sony still hasn't paid. Immersion probably has another lawsuit in them covering the stuff Sony has kept on making, until... whenever they stop.
Quote
GS: Had you pitched Sony in terms of them incorporating your technology prior to the Feb. '02 lawsuit?
VV: Oh, yeah. We've talked about not only the technology they're currently using that infringes our patents, but we've talked about new technology that includes better, more precise effects. We have technology that would work on the wireless platform, so wireless controllers with high fidelity effects are available. We have lots of new technology above and beyond that which they're currently using.
GS: Any crossover into the PSP camp here?
VV: I can't honestly say that we've talked about the wireless platform, the PSP, but we've shown them demonstrations of wireless controllers that could clearly work on any PlayStation embodiment. And we also have shown them technology that is about to be launched by Samsung in the cell phone market. That's the same technology that could easily be incorporated in a handheld gaming device.
I think GameSpot and Immersion both forgot that the PSP is disc-based.
Post by: Djunknown on March 31, 2005, 04:11:19 PM
Sony hasn't even issued a statement, much less an interview. They're not going to get a lot of sympathy save for Sony Fanboys. They should just grit their teeth and cut their losses, it seems that there's too much to lose. Retailers and 3rd parties may not be too happy when controllers and software are banned from the shelves. Its a PR nightmare as it is for Sony.
I wonder if this fallout will spill over to the PS3...
Post by: Grant10k on March 31, 2005, 04:20:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: Djunknown
. Now they're acting just like some other company we know who's still paying for their arrogance to this day...
I'd hate to sound like i'm not in the loop but uh....who we talkin' about here?
Post by: Bill Aurion on March 31, 2005, 04:23:53 PM
Post by: Grant10k on March 31, 2005, 04:25:48 PM
Post by: Djunknown on April 01, 2005, 03:36:50 PM
Quote
I'd assume he means Ninty back when they were tyrants over 3rd parties way back in the day....(Though I don't think that has anything to do with how they are treated today)
And the Cookie goes to Bill
*waits for the next bit of info*
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 02, 2005, 10:22:59 AM
Knowing that Immersion sued MS & Sony back in 2002, but MS settled for 26million including a 10% stake in Immersion, but Sony decided to fight it racking up enormous amounts of royalty infringement penalties (yet still paying less than if they had actually liscensed the tech). Is it possible that MS has been working behind the scenes for years now w/ their really high payed lawers, trying to help the now MS backed Immersion, to stick it Sony as hard as possible, therefore making MS money on all Sony PS related controllers and games?
So in other words wouldn't it be MS that spent their $26mil wisely, to partially collect on almost $330mil from Sony?
I mean they spend $26million now ($20mil settlement + $6mil for investment)making them share holders, and they aren't gonna charge themselves liscensing fees, are they? Then when all is said and done they would have made atleast 33mil from Sony and also what ever Logitech is paying.
Does that sound about right?
Post by: PaLaDiN on April 02, 2005, 10:31:27 AM
How dare you infringe upon my authority! It is I who am the SuperCookieExpert, and you would do well to never forget it. No cookie for you... yea, though you live as piously as no man before you, you would get no cookie. Chew on that for a while... oh, that's right, you can't.
I wonder how this lawsuit affects Whitefusion's controller.
Post by: ruby_onix on April 02, 2005, 01:28:07 PM
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There were two key issues we wanted outlining, not least the fact that Nintendo has never been mentioned in the case(s) Immersion Corp brought against Sony and Microsoft. Given that Nintendo executives have stated, on the record in the public domain for years that rumble functionality was their innovation, an innovation subsequently plagiarised by both Sony and Microsoft, it seems strange that they were never implicated in any case.
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“We never analysed Nintendo products.” Is the more-than surprising answer offered. “There is, I believe, a difference in the technologies used but we never investigated those of Nintendo.”
Spong basically sees this as an anti-Sony conspiricy on the part of Microsoft. Suggesting that the only reason Immersion's even going after Sony in the first place is because of Microsoft's influence (since they're leaving Nintendo alone).
Victor doesn't seem to doubt that Microsoft may have had "ulterior motives" in deciding to support Immersion.
Quote
It seems beyond the realms of possibility that Microsoft didn’t have this roadmap into the very fabric of the PlayStation business model mapped-out from the start. When this was put to Viegas he simply said, “I cannot argue with the logic in what you say. Microsoft took full advantage of the opportunity offered to it and was fair in its dealings with us throughout.”
Post by: Djunknown on April 02, 2005, 10:12:30 PM
Ok, I'll give bill a Pizza then. Happy?
As usual, SPoNG loves to stir the proverbial pot. Its nice theory, but why not take the lawsuit a step further, according to that logic? Take their high priced, lawyers, go to Japan, and get some mad Yen. While they're add it, go to the EU and try to ban controllers there, and count those Euros? Or is that next for the puppeteer that is MS? SPonG is going to need more than circumstantial evidence for that theory to hold up. Send in the moles!
Post by: Bill Aurion on April 03, 2005, 11:14:11 AM
Meanwhile, Spong is hilarious...99% of the angst in the industry is pointed at Nintendo, but one little thing could be speculated for anti-Sony conspiracies and then it's defense time...Fantastic...
