Post by: Gamefreak on November 14, 2004, 01:19:53 PM
-A melee attack (smash with arm cannon, kick, etc) This attack would do medium damage depending on the enemy and more importantly knock it back a little. This would be very helpful if say, if you got close to some Space Pirate clown and he tries to slash at you, or if you are just running around exploring and some beetle or other small time enemy pops up. Or if a flying enemy tries to dive bomb you you could whack it with good timing. Samus whacks people in Smash Bros. and I think this would have been a usefull little mechanic. This easiest way to include it would be to move the map from Z to Start (like in zelda), and either put it on Z, or put it on X and put the morph ball on Z. Or also, you could have it so it is activated only when you are locked on to someone and put in on R since R serves absolutely no purpose while locked on. But I have another idea for R....
-Combat uses of the grappling beam. These would be mapped to R only while locked on to an enemy. You just press R (not click) and Samus would lash out the grapple beam like a whip, which could do different things. LIke knock a flying enemy down. Or stun a Space Pirate. Clicking and holding R will cause Samus to whip it and grab hold of the enemy (like a metroid or pirate). Then you could shoot it for a second or two until it broke free, or press a direction on the stick and release R to throw in that direction (like Smash bros). This would be usefull for throwing metroids around when you don't feel like dealing with them (fission metroids anyone?) or knocking a Pirate down when you are in a firefight with a big group of pirates. Since the grapple beam is obviously electric/energy based it could even cause damage to enemies vulnerable to electricity (wave beam) such as the sentry drones and bombus.
-more immersive first person view - yes you can see your hands and helmet but Samus still floats along like any other first person game. The ability to see your legs running along would be awesome. You know the intro scenes where samus jumps off her ship and lands in a kneeled position? Well if you jumped down a big distance in game she should land in that same position, and you should actually see her legs and knees out of the edges of your view. I mean, we are supposed to see the world through her eyes right? Well when I'm walking around i see the world through my eyes, and I can definately see my arms flopping along and my legs walking along.
-replace crappy and nonsensical Prime 2 multiplayer with one that fits into the Metroid universe and doesn't have you playing as clones of Samus.
The best idea I can come up with is too have multiplayer as Galactic Federation vs. Space Pirates instead of the nonsensical Samus vs. Samus deathmatches in Prime 2. The multiplayer game would be set up like a shooter, of course a very high quality one (and made by a team seperate from the single player team so as not to waste their time..multiplayer is just a bonus after all). You pick which side you want, GF or SP. There will be several types of GF soldiers to choose from and several types of pirates. They would each have their own weapons and HUD. GF would be combat helmet display while Space Pirates will be whatever unique thing Retro thinks up. Put smart bots in there so you can play by yourself. Maybe even include bonus single player missions that have you and a squad of troopers storming a pirate base, or a pirate squad attacking a human establishment (remember ridley's attack of the human science lab in Super Metroid). You could include vehicles if you wanted. Obviously it would be a dual analog setup. Yes this sounds like Halo. So what. If any sort of multiplayer is to be included as a bonus in a Metroid game, in my opinion this would be the way to go. And unlike Metroid Prime 2's multiplayer it actually fits in with the storyline and makes sense.
-new unlockable - battle room - After beating the single player or doing some other thing like getting x% complete, you open up battle room. Basically you pick battle room and pick enemies and you fight them. Gives you something to do right? Also, once you beat the game you have the option of replaying all bosses and minibosses for fun. You get to replay them with either the minimum amount of stuff you can have at that point in the game, the most, or whatever you had when you fought that boss. I don't know about you but I love the Omega Pirate battle but I'm not going through the whole game just to fight him again.
-new unlockable - music room - After beating the game or whatever, you unlock all the music tracks in the game.
Tell me your opinions on these, and if anyone has some of their own reasonable and cool suggestions post them here!
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 14, 2004, 03:15:29 PM
A melee attack would be good. This could be done easily if the Revolution added another button to the controller. Assuming they have controllers. God only knows what Nintendo is thinking up. I don't know that it's necessarily, since I never had that much of a problem getting cornered, but it'd add a little realism to it.
I'm not sure about the grapple beam. That might work, could add something to the combat. It'd depend on how they did it and what it did.
I like the view as it is, though special situations like the jumping out of the ship you mentioned could be good. Otherwise it's just a distraction, and I prefer clear gameplay over realism.
The multiplayer idea sounds very cool, it hadn't even occured to me. As long as it wasn't too similar to Halo (Space Pirates would certainly prove more interesting than the covenant, what with blade arms and their jumpin' skillz, but the Fed. Soldiers would need work) that's a very cool idea, much better than what they have. Only thing is it'd require a great deal of effort for a game that's meant to be single player.
The battle room would be cool. I thought they should have the same thing for Wind Waker, since fighting is so fun in that. I always visit Shark Island and the Labyrinth.
Music room: Definitely. Metroid music is nothing short of amazing.
As for me, I still think a seismic visor could have really cool potential for a game, especially a boss. I also thought a gravity beam would be cool, have cool effects.
I had an idea for an entire premise of a Metroid game, but it's only rough and I'd rather not explain it.
Metroid-Pirate mix would be awesome. I think they had some Prime concept art that looked like it might be that, but I wasn't sure, and they certainly didn't use it. Anyway, that'd be a wicked fun enemy.
Also, having the scans you get prior to finishing the game after you start the game back up would be nice. Grr.
That's what comes to mind offhand, but I might return after more thought.
Post by: Odeix on November 14, 2004, 03:20:50 PM
Still nice ideas.
Post by: Bill Aurion on November 14, 2004, 03:25:16 PM
The one thing that I do agree with, however, is the need for a more realistic first-person interface...But this is a problem that's been faced by FPSers for a long time now, so it's really not that big of a deal...I'd personally love to see the return of the 2d view in some areas to add some nostalgia and to cater to the oldschool Metroid crowd...
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 14, 2004, 04:00:54 PM
And I still don't see why people demand such a realistic interface. Who cares if you can't see the feet? Feet aren't that exciting.
"Ooh, feet!"
"OH CRAP I GET EATEN NOW"
No.
Post by: Odeix on November 14, 2004, 04:13:35 PM
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on November 14, 2004, 04:52:34 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on November 14, 2004, 05:32:49 PM
You know Halo 2 introduced dual-wielding and no one is yelling at it for ripping off Goldeneye. No one is saying Halo and Halo 2 ripped off star wars with the energy sword. And Halo 2 obviously stole Grand Theft Auto's jacking but no one is complaining. In fact, they think it's awesome. I don't think the inclusion of a melee attack is going to make anyone think they are copying Halo. That's like saying Eternal Darkness ripped off Zelda because you can use a sword. Things like holding two guns or hitting someone with your gun are such mundane things it's silly to say games copied each other. Sure someone did it first...but it wasn't Halo, and it doesn't matter. Games are allowed borrow ideas... And when I thought this up I wasn't thinking of Halo anyway. It would just be plain useful. Anyway...
I was thinking about the grapple beam idea, and specifically the throwing ability. As I mentioned, press a direction and release R to try to toss the enemy in the direction (enemies weight obviously factors). Retro could think up some pretty sweet stuff. Like press up and release to have samus whip the enemy up and slam him back down. Left and right obviously just toss left and right. down could pull him in straight into you followed up by a smash from your gun, or maybe even getting kneed by those deadly pointed knees lol. But that would depend on the suit I guess. Neutral control stick position instead of throwing, would have Samus pull back the beam quickly, not throwing the victim but electrifying him and therefore stunning him for a second or something.
Oh and another new thing. It would be cool if the space pirates used their blades to actually deflect shots back at you. Not all shots obviously. Say a normal power beam shot, or if it is a really strong pirate a charged shot. If the pirate starts doing this too much just switch to ice beam. He swings! d'oh he's frozen now.
Depending on how far they want to go with the melee attacks, they could even have an upgrade that adds a blade (energy blade? crystal-ish blade?) attachment to her left arm (the grapple is on her wrist, so this would go on the back of her hand). This is probably overkill though....But the space pirates do get one.
And yeah, for the multiplayer as it stands now the Space Pirates would be the more interesting to place as. For the best experience I think if would be best to have the pirates and humans totally unique. Humans have their hardcore armor, Space Pirates have their raptor jump, etc.
A very customizable multiplayer would be important too. Like you can have humans vs. humans or anything you want.
Also have more than one type of pirate and soldier. Pirates, Flying Pirates (or a jetpack powerup for normal pirates), Elites, Troopers, Commandos...all of this would be balanced of course. After about 5 seconds of brainstorming here are some ideas for the pirates:
Troopers - model is trooper model but with neutral coloring - these pirates are lightly armored, but very fast, have excellent jump, built in blade...
Elite - model is elite, but slimmed up a little for multi - heavy armored, slower, not that great jump, carry more weapons? etc
Commando - model is commando from Echoes - this would be middle I guess
Humans would be harder to make unique I guess. These are the standard FPS types. They aren't as agile as Pirates but very well armored. They have their combat visors which could serve different purposes.
Post by: Lost101 on November 14, 2004, 06:48:20 PM
And half the fun of Metroid is that its so different. In what other multiplayer deathmatch game can you turn into a little ball and roll away? This is not a FPS, its very different, it has its simularities to be sure, but a very different animal. One of the fun things it looks like is that the game doesnt have instant kills and that type of thing, its not just a matter of getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time but a matter of you actually do in the battle. And hey running away is actually a factor! I think multiplayer metroid has a lot of potential.
Post by: Caillan on November 14, 2004, 06:58:50 PM
Post by: Gamefreak on November 14, 2004, 11:36:48 PM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 15, 2004, 03:44:01 AM
Post by: Deguello on November 15, 2004, 04:39:22 AM
Why does that matter? Who cares if it does or not?
Post by: Gamefreak on November 15, 2004, 06:11:40 AM
How would you control a Metroid though?...it would be very different and wierd.
Post by: Ian Sane on November 15, 2004, 06:31:27 AM
We're complaining. It's just because Halo 2 is insanely hyped that most people are ignoring stuff like that. Metroid however is a Nintendo series which thus means that no matter what people will nitpick it.
If Metroid stays in a first person view I would like Samus to be able to turn faster and do a quick 180 degree turnaround. Too many times I've been killed in Metroid Prime because Samus moves like Robocop.
However I don't know if I want to see Metroid stay in a first person view. Since the aiming is all based on targeting anyway I don't see why they don't just switch to a third person view. This would make jumping a lot easier and would remove idiotic comparisons to Halo or expectations that the game has to play like a generic FPS. First person view would exist still like in Zelda where you would switch to it for scanning and any other scenario where you need to look around. I think that would work really well and would allow moves like the space jump to work like they did before. Wind Waker's camera would be a good fit as well.
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 15, 2004, 06:52:32 AM
Quote
If we're implementing multiple species, how about Metroids vs. Pirates? Kinda like Alien vs. Predator...
That would be awesome, though I'd suggest something other than Metroids (they'd be boring to play as, mainly). Something like a toned down Ing (though not an Ing, since it'd be in another game) would work better, no doubt.
Ian, I think the series is excellent in first person. Nintendo already has more than enough 3D perspectives like that, and it's nice to have something that works like this. Mind you, I wouldn't mind if they tried it and revisited the first person perspective every few games. . . y'know, switching between ideas and angles and whatnot. But I wouldn't want a permanent removal from the first person perspective.
Post by: Gamefreak on November 15, 2004, 07:01:37 AM
Post by: Ian Sane on November 15, 2004, 07:33:27 AM
Post by: PaLaDiN on November 15, 2004, 07:57:56 AM
First-person gives you better accuracy when shooting, and first-person jumping is fine in MP. I still don't know how they pulled off the jumping but as long as it works there's no need to have a third-person view in there. Third-person is notoriously clunky for platforming anyway, what with the need to adjust the camera.
The only things third-person is needed for are walljumping and screw attack. Both are in MP2, if I'm not mistaken.
Post by: MaleficentOgre on November 15, 2004, 07:59:05 AM
Post by: KDR_11k on November 15, 2004, 08:38:25 AM
Playing as a metroid would be fun, you start as a larva and try to sneak up on enemies and melee attack them, then you become a larger metroid form (probably depending on the enemy class or something) and get some real attacks. Levelled-up metroids should be much stronger than the classes they ate since it's not as easy for them to become stronger. But then that wouldn't work in splitscreen or at least not with non-metroids and metroids on one screen. Trooper runs around, goes through a dark spot and the last thing he sees is three fangs biting into his face.
Post by: Odeix on November 15, 2004, 09:28:09 AM
Post by: nemo_83 on November 15, 2004, 09:55:35 AM
I like your ideas Gamefreak, I've been thinking about a lot of them myself, but I've been trying to visualize what a Metroid could be free of the restraints of the Cube. As powerful as the Cube is, the Revolution/N5 will have real lighting in the games that will make what Splinter Cell and Doom 3 have done this generation with real time lighting look less than standard. With real time lighting as standard tool for the next system, I can't wait to see what Retro can do as far as atmosphere and visors. More importantly for control, the controller will have improvements over the present Cube controller.
Something as simple as mouse wheels for scrolling through visors, and weapons could unclog the control in the next Metroid. Halo 2 gets rid of one quality that made Halo so good; it had multiple control layouts that were for the most part pretty functional. Say if you wanted to control with the right analog stick and look with the left then in the original Halo you could reasign the left trigger from being grenade to being jump so that you can jump and look and run and shoot at the same time (having the right trigger as primary fire). Unfortunately Halo 2 has melee combat (that requires targeting, they stole from Metroid too), you also have dual wielding which means you have to put your jump on A button (which means you have to use the right analog stick to look so you can still move while you jump, but you can't look, jump, shoot, and move at the same time anymore), and you can't reasign jump to the Dpad on the Xbox controller for Halo 2 so you could still move with the right analog stick. With having the independent use of each arm, which most people want to be standard, we sacrifice, at least camera control, if not more with the present controlers. Halo 2 suffers from what Metroid Prime suffered from. Slow movement even though you were in an advanced cybernetic space suit built for combat along with linear control. The deathmatch in Halo 2 has been said to be a bunch of people standing and shooting because you really can't dodge or jump fast. In Prime we were forced into using the ball because Samus wouldn't run fast (I guess I want Samus to run, jump, and straff faster than most any character, but I want the morph ball to be able to go ridiculously fast).
If Nintendo uses tilt technology gyros in there next controller along with dual analog then camera control can become a worry of the past. I suggested mouse wheels earlier to replace weapon and visor selections. One can think of designing the game and the options around a layout like this. Each trigger, with its digital click, can be used for each arm instead of the face buttons. I would suggest the analog sticks to be capable of reasignment (classic Prime controls, and other new variants). I like the idea of using the grapple beam in combat, to throw enemies and objects. The grapple beam could be on the left trigger. You could control the character movement (forward, backward, straff left and right) with one analog stick, the camera with the other analog stick, and the actual aim (or drag since you would be using the grapple beam like a whip latched onto something) by tilting the controller. I assume you would see Samus' breastplate instead of her feet when you looked down. You could jump with a face button, which could be on either side if they get rid of the useless dpad and put two sets of face buttons on the controller. You could also choose to use the A button for the grapple beam and use the left trigger for jumping. I believe that the lock on, should stay in the game to assist in aiming. Though you would have total control over camera and aiming, Samus' ability to auto aim is a nice crutch that other first person shooters don't have.
Melee attacks scare me though. I'm afraid Metroid would become like the brawler Castlevania on PS2. If the controller had two sets of face buttons with jump on both sides, then you could use x, y, and b on one side for morph ball, cloaking, and map; and use the other set of face buttons for punches, kicks, swipes, and grabbing and using an enemy body for use as a shield. Missiles and lock on could be put on digital Z buttons under the triggers for the middle fingers.
I really like the idea of using other characters in the multiplayer (coop would be better than deathmatch) other than Samus. Nothing would make people appreciate Samus' suit more than playing against it. I think the idea of having different visor technology for each character (pirates, marines, Samus, Chozoa, Aethers, Dark Samus, Omega Pirate).
I would like a storyline where the Pirates try to capture Samus for her brain to replace Mother Brain after Samus killed her, but then they capture the Dark Samus and her suit and they don't know it.
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 15, 2004, 10:15:35 AM
I think Omega pirate would be too powerful for multiplayer, but it'd be cool to have one wandering around during a multiplayer game, attacking everyone playing (sort of a Y factor in the equation). It's not too often you see something like that, and it'd be pretty fun to avoid a powerful enemy and try to take out the other players at the same time.
Post by: Gamefreak on November 15, 2004, 11:26:43 AM
Like, have some huge alien boss and its minions.
Player 1 and his team of human bots coming in from one side.
Player 2 and his team of pirates coming in from the other.
Rules could be whatever you want. Whoever kills the boss wins. Whichever team dies first loses. Or it could be points based. X number of points for the minions, 10X for the boss, and then Y for each enemy. Game ends when the boss dies or if an entire team is defeated (you could have a certain number of lives per player and bot, or have it so that if someone is dead they wait a certain amount before respawning, so as long as one member of a team can make it through a battle the team can live).
Post by: mantidor on November 16, 2004, 01:36:39 PM
thats because its not a first person shooter. Please, I cant believe this needs to be clarified even among Metroid Prime fans.
The only thing I would really want to see its a more agile Samus, but to be honest I have no idea how this can be acomplished. Everything else is just perfect, Nintendo was right when they forced the first person perspective, imagine trying to go through those corridors in a third person perspective and Samus is getting in your line of view... you couldnt even see if there are monsters ahead, and claustrophobic corridors are a must for a metroid game imo.
Post by: nemo_83 on November 16, 2004, 05:37:48 PM
I agree that with the way they design the majority of the areas in Metroid that first person is the best view point, plus it gives you the visors. In first person you can platform easier because the camera view never changes, it is always inside the helmet. There is never some three dimensional object in front of the camera you are trying to slam dunk in virtual 3d space judging distances based on shadows. It could work, but in Metroid the levels twist and turn, the game is not just a shallow space 3d game. There are tunnels, spirals, and high platforming. Metroid is way too focused on jumping for third person, though it would be a nice option, the aiming, the vertical aiming, just wouldn't be the same in third person. Even if you were using the lock on, you would have to posistion the camera behind Samus' big ass to direct the aiming up. It just wouldn't work out in my opinion for anything other than checking out the suit in action.
This talk of Halo and third person views has made me think of something lacking in MP. In other adventure games like Zelda and Fable you have an open world. I would love to see vast open areas on the surface of the planets in the next Metroid games. They could creat an entire 3d planet with interconnecting subterrainian corridors. Halo is stage based, which sucks, but the best stages are open enviroments outdoors.
Samus is just too slow. And the whole having to target, shoot, and move with the joystick while trying to pound B button to dash to the side runs about as smooth as Dick Cheney's heart. With dual analog control along with gyration, Samus can side straff all of the time while aiming, shooting, and jumping without any problems. When Samus gets upgrades in the game, she should be able to run twice as fast. She doesn't have to do flips everytime she dodges or anything, she just needs to get her rear in gear when you push the analog stick the whole way.
Post by: kratos on November 16, 2004, 06:08:03 PM
Post by: Hostile Creation on November 16, 2004, 06:33:37 PM
A very thorough Metroid fan site I found today, by coincidence. Very interesting, I suggest giving it a look; expands the universe quite a bit, in their own way.
They have huge descriptions on tons of stuff. I've really only played three metroid games, so I'm not entirely sure how accurate all the information is (a lot of it is made up, I know; I'm pretty sure their description of Metroid Prime, for instance, is pretty skewed), but some things in there could provide lots of ideas. They have a category under biological data named "Enemies of the Galactic Federation", under which are included big bosses like Ridley and Mother Brain, as well as breeds, like the Space Pirates. One I hadn't heard of previously are called Ki Hunter Pirates. Not sure how they factor into the game, nor how accurate their description is, but it could have potential. According to the site, they're highly evolved insects, man-sized, similar to the Space Pirates. However, they are a hive mind and rely more on their natural abilities. Just as ruthless, though. I can imagine a game where an entire planet is overrun by them: Ki Hunters everywhere, everything's destroyed, maybe even (gasp) a few skeletons or corpses lying about (and not space pirate corpses, either), eggs covering entire ceilings of ruined buildings and caves, and you have to sneak and fight your way through it all. It could be incredibly creepy, very challenging, lots of fun. Enemy diversty might be a problem, but you could start on the outskirts (good variety) and work your way into the heart of the infestation (Prime became more focused on types of Pirates as they game progressed, and I didn't really mind). You'd have to work backtracking in, of course.
I dunno, just brainstorming. Struck me as interesting. Anyway, cool site, check it out or something.
