Author Topic: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)  (Read 29428 times)

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Offline ejamer

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2012, 10:53:08 AM »
Is there a way to see which boss' treasures we're missing? I'd rather not refight all of them.


Is there even a way to refight bosses without finishing the game first?
I was under the impression that you had to finish the game and then start over (ie: only on boss fights) if you missed a treasure.  This is possibly the most annoying aspect of the game for me - but it's not something I explored enough to see if there was a better solution for.
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Offline Pandareus

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2012, 01:56:46 PM »
I did beat the game and I got a screen telling me the bosses were back and I could go get the treasures I missed. And they are back.

Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2012, 05:12:03 PM »

 
 
 Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)

 
 
 Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.
 
 
 I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.
 
 
 ("I play CounterStrike competitively and when I try to play Halo the same way it doesn't work very well. Therefore Halo sucks." WTF? No! Approach different games with a clean slate instead of trying to apply lessons learned in one game directly to the other. Even if Mario games have taught you to avoid enemies on pain of death in all cases, you aren't playing a Mario game so leave that preconception at the door.)
 


Guess it’s my turn J…

Good points.  From an apologist viewpoint, it's easy to reclaim ground for the designers by inferring that the gamer is being lazy.  Hell, it worked for Demon Souls and Dark Souls, right?  However, just as much can be said about the story the designers are trying to tell with their level design.  The various mosaic frameworks that levels are cased in do not, in fact, assist in designer hints at secret locations.  I've randomly shoulder charged into walls because I like feeling mighty and the wall breaks to a secret location.  No hints, just dumb-luck.  While that's all well and good, it can be distracting in that it conflicts with the story of the level.  This is what I'm mainly trying to describe that the game could fix: A need for generally consistency.  Being the fourth iteration only drives home the fact that the formula should have been streamlined.  To assume that the manual is the saving grace is a lazy designer.  The manual doesn't tell us the location of everything in the game, assuming that we'll experiment with the world given.  This is why I think the damage-only enemies kind of ruin the game's story.  Even if you read the manual, you'll think that every enemy will do something neat which is not the case and creates conflicting ideals?  Do I pet or punch that baddie? The conversation between designer and gamer gets muddled because of this. 

 Now conversation is the keyword here.  We can’t go into any game tabula rasa because, even if we haven’t played the game, we live in a world that it exists in, meaning all games are compared to one another and the designer has to approach the game with that in mind.  However, if they go into it assuming your ideal “clean slate” and the player has not played a video game before, then the designer has failed to get the player acclimated to the game style.  If they really wanted to break the preconceptions, then all enemies would have a status effect to encourage player experimentation.  This is not the case, so we have two conclusions: They either didn’t want to entirely break the preconceptions or they fell short of achieving their goal of “thinking outside the box.”


This isn’t game breaking though.  It’s a complaint, yes, but not with its work-arounds.  The game is graphically nice and the platforming is quick.  The pressure-sensitive jumps are a blessing and a curse at times.  The speed runs back to the start are excellent, as I said before.  The status effects and fun and I like those moments of when you first encounter an effect and just sit there for a bit toying with the possibilities.  This game has good, but nostalgia isn’t an appropriate shield to criticisms.  That’s part of what’s to be discussed, right?  Whether or not it stands the test of time?  I think so, regardless of the problems mentioned. 


Offline syn4aptik

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2012, 12:26:37 PM »

Fair enough.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4
The majority of people seem to think Wario Land 4 is ok, so I'll stand by my statement.



You know to be honest, I think the game is pretty good. And I am sure some of the people complaining here do as well (88 on metacritic seems high to me, but that's me). But there are some elements that are frustrating. Nintendo does this a lot. Their games can be very good mechanically, artistically, conceptually, etc. but then you run into some quirk of the game that is baffling. I complain heavily about a lot of the stars in Mario Galaxy (like the completely un-fun trash robot stars), but I LOVE that game. Windwaker was fantastic, but the Triforce hunt at the end was so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't bring myself to play through it again.


But I digress. I think it is good to pick at these games for Retroactive. Part of the fun is comparing old games to new in order to see how the games were influential, or where the industry has learned from their mistakes.
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Offline leahsdad

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2012, 01:23:13 AM »
Almost done with this game, and I'm enjoying it a lot.   Other people have touched on this, but I think the point at which the game really shines is when your hit the bomb-frog (is there an accepted name for this?) .   You don't want to hit the frog statue until you've found every piece of the pie-thingy that you can.   These parts are very slow, and tense at times.   But at some point in the level, you have to place a bit of blind faith in the game and the game's level designer.   You have to tell yourself "I trust that when I hit the frog, the game will show me the way to the other pie-piece things."  Maybe you see the little outlined bricks that will be filled in.  But you probably have no idea where they will lead you.   It is a leap of faith.   

And once you do, as everyone else has said, the game becomes Sonic, but actually good.  The music changes, and man, that chiming is crazy.   Why clock chiming?   That doesn't induce a sense of urgency for me.  It induces of sense of psychological fear and insanity.   This weird feeling that Wario wouldn't feel out of place in Eternal Darkness is compounded by the generally dark levels and the plodding music.   I swear, the music in Mystic Jungle sounds right out of the Cure's Disintegration.  Trust me, I know, I grew up in the 80's.

And tell me, why is the key the beak of a bird?
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2012, 02:57:11 AM »
And tell me, why is the key the beak of a bird?
Why not? It's a Wario game. If it isn't messing with you like that with the small details it just wouldn't be right.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2012, 08:59:36 AM »
...
And tell me, why is the key the beak of a bird?


I always thought that was a little ghost. Not that it would make more sense if it was...
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Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2012, 04:16:51 PM »
I think it's a ghost, but I like the key-nosed critter.  It seems like a nice call back to Super Mario Brothers 2 (US) where you had to grab key and get chased.  Frankly, I've tried carrying enemies across the tight platforming and I'm glad I don't have to lug a key around too. 

Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2012, 05:29:29 PM »

But there are some elements that are frustrating. Nintendo does this a lot. Their games can be very good mechanically, artistically, conceptually, etc. but then you run into some quirk of the game that is baffling. I complain heavily about a lot of the stars in Mario Galaxy (like the completely un-fun trash robot stars), but I LOVE that game. Windwaker was fantastic, but the Triforce hunt at the end was so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't bring myself to play through it again.


I feel you. I often find Nintendo games generally are like 80% inspiration and 20% frustration. Nintendo have a tendency to take a great basis for a game and add frustrating or superfluous elements. I guess you just have to take the bad with the good.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2012, 08:25:14 PM »
We are definitely going to discuss Wario Land 4 on episode 303.
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Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2012, 10:28:01 AM »
Does anyone else get annoyed when the game gives multiple paths and then makes one of them one-way? 

Offline Pandareus

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2012, 10:48:55 AM »
I get annoyed at every game that does this, at least when the main path isn't clearly marked. Now I know making the main path clear defeats the point of making a level maze-like, but if you're not going to allow me to go back and explore at my leisure, I want the path to be marked clearly so I can fully see everything before taking it.

Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2012, 12:22:06 PM »
I guess it's harder to accomplish because the game isn't a basic move forward or up. 




Offline rebonack

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #63 on: August 22, 2012, 08:57:25 PM »
I've tried playing Wario Land 4 a few times in the past, and I didn't much care for it. Now I'm playing it, having recently played through both Wario Land 1 and Virtual Boy Wario Land, and I'm enjoying it way more. I imagine it's probably because now I have a better idea of what to expect from a Wario game (even if it is still pretty different from 1 and VB). I like that the levels are maze-like, but still designed well enough that I don't find myself getting lost. Most of the time I end up finding all of the shards and key on my first run through the level, even if I don't explore everywhere, because the designs are good at communicating where I need to go. This isn't always the case, but generally I think it's very successful in that regard.


Reading some reviews, I see that a lot of them seem to complain about the fact that it's not all that advanced from Wario Land 3, but having never played much of that game, it hasn't affected me. To be honest, I own Wario Land 3 and I don't much care for it from what little I've played -- I feel that there's not enough direction. With the day/night system and the world map and the upgrades, I'm never sure where I should go next. In that respect, Wario Land 4 feels like it's got some maze-like aspects to it, but it's still well enough designed that I can enjoy it without getting frustrated.


Of course, I felt the same way about Wario Land 4 when I first tried it when the Ambassador games came out, and now I really like it. I think I'll give WL3 another shot once I finish this one (or maybe even tonight, since I forgot my 3DS at work).

Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2012, 12:31:28 PM »
So far, my favorite levels are in Topaz.  The Big Board was a blast!  What levels are sticking in your mind?

Offline Glad0s

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2012, 05:33:17 PM »
Does anyone else get annoyed when the game gives multiple paths and then makes one of them one-way?


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Also, as I said before (over a month ago at this point), The Big Board is my favorite level in the game. Very clever design.


Btw, as far as next RetroActive goes, I'd like to see a Wii poll. We're getting close to the end, and it'd be a good way to send it out in style. You could do stuff like Zack and Wiki, BlastWorks, etc. The only problem is that since the podcast has been going for the entirety of the Wii's life cycle, there are relatively few games for it (that are any good) that haven't been talked about on the show. Still, I'm sure you guys could think of some.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 05:38:30 PM by Glad0s »
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Offline pandaradox

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2012, 10:56:20 AM »
Beat the game... Kinda wish there was a coupon for All You Can Eat Steak...  Would've totally out done the Halo guys.

Offline rebonack

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Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
« Reply #67 on: August 27, 2012, 03:48:22 PM »
I'm listening to the podcast now, and my post got called out -- now playing through four Wario Land games in a row is all worth it.


Admittedly, Wario Land has clearly changed a lot throughout the series -- particularly if, like me, you skip WL2 and 3. Wario Land 4 is vastly different from the earliest games in the series. But despite that, I do think that the first game and the VB game at the very least helped put my expectations in check. I said recently that I appreciated Wario Land 1 more than the Super Mario Land games because it really tries to break out of the mold of those games -- that is, of trying to emulate the console games. Wario Land really is a whole different beast from Mario. With the dash, the butt stomp, and the various hats, even in a very basic sense, Wario has a whole different feel to him. Beyond that, the games have more slow-paced levels with a focus on exploration, which I think is pretty consistent throughout the series. I mean, you won't find yourself crouching down and crawling in tiny spaces or crashing through bricks in most traditional Mario games.


That's mostly what I was referring to when I said that playing older games in the series prepared me. While there are a lot of changes throughout the series, with its increased focus on exploration, the completely different abilities and power-ups, I still think there's enough consistency that playing the older games helped me get into the series.


...


Going a little off topic here, I mentioned in my last post that I was going to give Wario Land 3 another shot, and I am -- and I'm really enjoying it. Much like Wario Land 4, I think a better understanding of the series really helped. I think that Wario Land 3 in particular can be overwhelming to a series newcomer. I really like the variety of abilities, and the lack of death makes me not hesitate to run right into an enemy to see what will happen. I do like the exploration aspect, but I still think it could be handled better. I wish there were more indications of where to use my new treasures. I think it's great that stages are highlighted right after you get a treasure -- unless I'm not paying attention or if I forget the others after going to one of them. Obviously there's the temple too, but that seems to be purely about progressing forward, not necessarily about exploring for optional treasures.


But there is a lot to love about the game, and I do think it's superior to Wario Land 4. I hope that one day you guys do a RetroActive for Wario Land 3, as I'm really enjoying it, but I don't know if I'd put it quite on the pedestal that some people do. It definitely feels like the most ambitious title in the series, but it's not without a few flaws as a result of that.