NWR Interactive => Podcast Discussion => Topic started by: Jonnyboy117 on July 14, 2012, 07:21:51 PM
Title: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on July 14, 2012, 07:21:51 PM
Please use this thread to discuss Wario Land 4! Remember, posts in this thread may be sampled and read on the podcast when it's time for us to record the feature discussion.
Looking for a copy? Check the used section at your local game stores. Also, it's available as a free download to 3DS Ambassadors.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Halbred on July 14, 2012, 09:36:20 PM
Just beat this game a few weeks ago. Very good stuff--you can definitely see where Shake It! came from. The level design is a little uneven, though.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: xcwarrior on July 16, 2012, 12:25:48 AM
Also beat the game recently thanks to the 3DS Ambassador program.
I was surprised by how challenging a few of the bosses were, though the actual levels were quite simple. I did like the different layout, and the challenge of getting back to the start before time runs out.
I didn't go after all the bonus item/secret stuff, but I tend not to anymore because of my crazy backlog.
Not being a big fan of the Wario Ware series, I like this game a lot better than any of those. I know these aren't the same genre, but WarioWare has soured me on the Wario character. This helped his case a lot.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: oohhboy on July 16, 2012, 01:10:16 AM
Looks like mystery solved.
I actually played this back on the GBA, but had forgotten all about it until I opened it up for this.
I don't think the levels were that simple. What is happening is that the level designer is communicating to the player very effectively what he expects the player to do. Once you understand the basic gameplay and the overall design, you can methodically move through the levels and 100% the secrets on your first run a lot of the time. The life hearts allow you to take damage and experiment with the levels since some enemies inflict special status that allow you to explore the level more.
Wario despite being a platformer isn't really a platfomer like Mario is. None of the jumps are hard or lethal. Wario is about the puzzles and exploration, not unlike that professor you keep abusing in game. I have a sneaking suspicion that the new 2d Mario "Golden showers" was originally a Wario game only to be replaced since he doesn't have the selling power of Mario. It was only in the Wario games did you run around looting everything insight and have a score to go with it. The new Mario game isn't going to feel like a Mario game. It's going to be a Wario game at heart, minus the obvious extra surrealism that Wario brings.
That said, Wario 4 is not that big or long of a game. There are a whole bunch of unlockable minigames and "Soundtracks" to mess around with. It's surreal and happily trolls the player with it. It is as difficult as you want to make it. If you go straight from A to B, it's a really short game. The difficulty comes from the extra puzzles, looting and having the player poke a level until you find a secret. The lack of moral constraints allow Wario to use gameplay and visual elements that Mario can't. This is why Mario Golden Showers got the backlash that it has, it isn't Mario.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 16, 2012, 07:55:13 AM
This is why Mario Golden Showers got the backlash that it has, it isn't Mario.
I dunno, it looks at LOT like NSMB to me.
So far I'm not crazy about Wario Land 4, I've played it a bit but the system of exploring the levels that has been described here hasn't clicked with me yet. To the point where I've had to consult an FAQ ("Oh, I have to jump off a platform and do a SUPER butt stomp - I didn't know those existed").
The game design coupled with the current restrictions of GBA games on the 3DS don't suit my life style. Since this started I have rarely had the time to sit down and play through a whole level, short as they are. Not being able to enter sleep mode or use a quick save function means restarting the level from scratch every time I need to stop playing. This puts me off picking the game up when I do have some time of play games.
Hopefully I'll get a few more uninterrupted gaming sessions with it this week.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on July 16, 2012, 04:02:27 PM
Well, this is my first Wario Land, I just played it for a bit, and I think it's a good game. Not great. Just a decent, almost run of the mill, puzzle-platformer. I kind of wish the levels were a bit more linear, so it was a little harder to get lost, but generally it seems to be just about the right difficulty. By far my favorite parts of the game occur after you jump on the frog statue's head, as the races against the clock back to the start are really fun. As for getting to the frog? Eh, those parts are alright, but it doesn't really play like a Nintendo game to me, for whatever reason. It looks like one, what with the wacky powers and all, but it's just not as tight and enjoyable as other comparable Nintendo games. I'll post more thoughts after I play some more.
(As far as what has been said above me goes, I'm with Einstein on this one -- the "feel" definitely hasn't clicked with me yet. Hopefully it will. Also, for anyone who hasn't started yet, I HIGHLY recommend starting with the chamber directly to the right of the intro chamber. It's by far the easiest.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 17, 2012, 02:10:37 AM
Well, this is my first Wario Land, I just played it for a bit, and I think it's a good game. Not great. Just a decent, almost run of the mill, puzzle-platformer.
I have to be honest, I never thought I'd hear Warioland 4 being described as 'run of the mill'. True, it is just a puzzle-platformer, but one which in my opinion is completely bonkers. What other series would have you turn into a zombie so that when you fall and hit grating below your body turns to pulp and slides through? Everything from being stung to get an inflated head and float to deliberately lighting yourself on fire so that you run at high speeds but with limited control. For me this game was anything but run of the mill.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 17, 2012, 04:39:26 AM
Managed to get through 2 whole levels yesterday, so things are looking up! Mind you, I would be half way towards a third level if GBA roms had a sleep mode on the 3DS. GRUMBLE GRUMBLE.
By far my favorite parts of the game occur after you jump on the frog statue's head, as the races against the clock back to the start are really fun. As for getting to the frog? Eh, those parts are alright,
Spot on sir! Exactly how I feel. The puzzle/exploration is very hit and miss.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: oohhboy on July 17, 2012, 05:39:45 AM
That's the Sonic part of the levels. They play better than Sonic since Wario doesn't quite move as fast therefore even on your first playthrough you have time to respond. The problem I always had with Sonic games was that he was too fast for his own good. Sure it's pretty badass to zip through a level like a motherfucker, but you pretty much had to know the level off by heart and it really detracts from the enjoyment when you have to crawl your way through a level.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 17, 2012, 08:15:35 AM
Sure it's pretty badass to zip through a level like a motherfucker, but you pretty much had to know the level off by heart and it really detracts from the enjoyment when you have to crawl your way through a level.
Sonic is as much about noob traps as it is about rings and terrible voice acting. Spikes follow slides/loops/rails/other speed inducing stuff like night follows day.
Which was just about acceptable when I was at school and had the time to learn the levels and didn't have unplayed games on my shelf mocking me. But now it's a deal breaker.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on July 17, 2012, 10:38:31 AM
Well, this is my first Wario Land, I just played it for a bit, and I think it's a good game. Not great. Just a decent, almost run of the mill, puzzle-platformer.
I have to be honest, I never thought I'd hear Warioland 4 being described as 'run of the mill'. True, it is just a puzzle-platformer, but one which in my opinion is completely bonkers. What other series would have you turn into a zombie so that when you fall and hit grating below your body turns to pulp and slides through? Everything from being stung to get an inflated head and float to deliberately lighting yourself on fire so that you run at high speeds but with limited control. For me this game was anything but run of the mill.
Yeah, I kinda worded that wrong. No, the art style and certain gameplay elements are certainly not run of the mill. And heck, even the "strange" powers are essentially normal gameplay elements dressed up in crazy costumes. Floating upwards, falling through platforms, jumping high distances -- they've been used before. However, this game just decides to spruce those, dare I say it again, run of the mill elements up. But yes, the way the game looks is certainly unlike no other, I'll give you that.
I'm about two-thirds of the way done with the game now, and my opinion is virtually the same as before. However, one particular level stood out to me as being the absolute pinnacle of what this kind of game could be. And that level is......The Big Board. That level's flow, its concept, the puzzles -- everything about it was pretty much as good as Wario Land 4 could possibly get. It introduced a completely new, one time only gameplay concept (the board), and it also had a great level surrounding the new concept. By far the best level I've played so far.
But y'know, I still can't shake the feeling that this just isn't that fantastic of a game. I mean, if I was rating it, I'd probably give it a 7.5 or so. It's still worth playing, but for my money most of the other GBA Ambassador games are better. Just my two cents.
Sure it's pretty badass to zip through a level like a motherfucker, but you pretty much had to know the level off by heart and it really detracts from the enjoyment when you have to crawl your way through a level.
Sonic is as much about noob traps as it is about rings and terrible voice acting. Spikes follow slides/loops/rails/other speed inducing stuff like night follows day.
That is probably the perfect way to describe Sonic games, if you ask me. Although if you count the Dreamcast and beyond stuff, you have to add horrible glitches and even worse mini-games to the list of what Sonic's about.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 17, 2012, 08:22:41 PM
@ Glad0s
That's fair I suppose. I should probably say that I'm not suggesting that it's a breakthrough in game design, but it doesn't need to be. Often style and humour combined with fun game design are enough to make a game stand out from run-of-the-mill titles.
Afterall, there are so very few wholly original game concepts. Even those concepts that I enjoy so much about Warioland 4 have their roots in previous Warioland titles (Warioland 3 comes out in the Europe this weeks so I'll be interested to see the similarities). Warioland as a series, however, has enough uncommon elements (racing back to the beginning of the level for instance) along with some interesting twists on more common ideas like power-ups and transformations (which in Warioland 4 take on a Cronenberg's 'The Fly' level of insanity) that I think it's deserving of more credit that it's often given.
For me Warioland 4 is not run-of-the-mill for the same reason that Super Mario Bros. 3 isn't. Neither game did anything particularly original, but both were better more amped versions of previous instalments in the series.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: noname2200 on July 19, 2012, 02:37:04 PM
I tried the game for the first time shortly after it came out as an Ambassador title. I really liked the first and second Wario Land games, even though those two games were very different from each other, but I put this one down after about an hour. Something about it just didn't feel fun. It's pretty enough, but it's just not clicking with me. Maybe it's just got too much of an emphasis on exploration (which I generally don't care for in 2D platformers) and not enough of an emphasis on puzzles (like Wario Land II did)?
Do things change up later? I plan on starting anew and seeing if my impressions hold up, but I'm not feeling super eager about that.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 20, 2012, 05:02:42 AM
Been playing on and off this week, not really feeling it. I like Vizor man though! Graphics and sound are all lovely but it just doesn't gel with me some how. I'll stick with it at least until the end of retro active though.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: xcwarrior on July 21, 2012, 10:03:56 PM
I tried the game for the first time shortly after it came out as an Ambassador title. I really liked the first and second Wario Land games, even though those two games were very different from each other, but I put this one down after about an hour. Something about it just didn't feel fun. It's pretty enough, but it's just not clicking with me. Maybe it's just got too much of an emphasis on exploration (which I generally don't care for in 2D platformers) and not enough of an emphasis on puzzles (like Wario Land II did)?
Do things change up later? I plan on starting anew and seeing if my impressions hold up, but I'm not feeling super eager about that.
There isn't much in the way of puzzles, but I would hardly consider the game exploration. I guess you have to find those 4 pieces to move on to the end, but they are hardly out of the way with a few exceptions.
I found the game very unique in terms of a platformer, I just didn't like how easy it was. But the levels are unique all the time, the bosses are different, and there isn't fart references which is a huge plus.
I'm kind of amazed this one retro active, yet hardly anyone is saying anything nice about the game.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on July 24, 2012, 12:39:39 AM
Ok, I've finished the game with the exception of one level and three bosses. And now, to defend my statement:
@PixelatedPixies
True, not every game has to be a revolution. Heck, some of my favorite games (such as Mario Sunshine and Portal 2, thus my username) are downright derivative. However, the difference there is that the games that those two are imitating (Mario 64 and the original Portal) are absolutely fantastic, and the tweaks made on the original formula (Fludd and the gels, respectively) are very effective. The same goes for SMB3. It was a perfected version of an already amazing formula. This game is nowhere near "amazing". It's a pleasant, decent puzzle-platformer. End of story. I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but I STILL can't see why people voted for this as the RetroActive game. The discussion should be....erm....interesting, to say the least.
(Also, does anyone know if the segment will be this week or after the big 3-0-0?
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: lolmonade on July 24, 2012, 01:09:50 AM
Well, I have played through a few levels (made it to a point where bees sting you and make your giant head float in the air), and it hasn't quite clicked with me. Warioland 1 was a game I adored as a kid, and i'm not sure exactly what it is that isn't connecting with me on this game. The graphics and levels are very colorful, but they seem bare so far (as early as I am in the game, this may change). The puzzles aren't very challenging.
One thing I miss the most (and maybe it's hidden in here and I haven't found it) is the treasure items in the original game that you collected in hopes that the genie would give you a bigger mansion. (Added spoiler in case anyone would actually care about this). Another aspect I miss is that although there was emphasis on exploration for the aforementioned treasure in the original, the levels were still fairly linear start/end point. Wario Land 4 seems like there is a path you're supposed to take, but it's in this large level with no clear indication as to where it is.
To me, Warioland 4 seems a bit bloated, whereas the original seemed more streamlined.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 24, 2012, 02:12:25 AM
Wario Land 4 seems like there is a path you're supposed to take, but it's in this large level with no clear indication as to where it is.
To me, Warioland 4 seems a bit bloated, whereas the original seemed more streamlined.
I can of course only speak from my own experience with the game, but apart from one level which was structured like a mansion I always had a very clear idea of where I was going. I was actually surprised by how smooth the rush back to the start was throughout the game as I had on a few occasions messed up horribly in Warioland: Shake It. In Warioland 4 I always felt like I might not find that last treasure or might not make it back to the start in time but invariably did. Maybe it was just luck, but I always seemed to get everything (with the exception of some CDs) on my first try without feeling lost.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 24, 2012, 07:00:27 AM
There isn't much in the way of puzzles, but I would hardly consider the game exploration. I guess you have to find those 4 pieces to move on to the end, but they are hardly out of the way with a few exceptions.
I found the game very unique in terms of a platformer, I just didn't like how easy it was. But the levels are unique all the time, the bosses are different, and there isn't fart references which is a huge plus.
I'm kind of amazed this one retro active, yet hardly anyone is saying anything nice about the game.
When I said exploration, I meant it in the Super Mario World vein. True, most of the required objects are in a straight shot (so far, barely on the fifth level or so), but finding all the big jewels/heart chests etc. require looking through a bunch of nooks and crannies. Admittedly, said nooks/crannies routinely require some mild puzzle solving as well, so it's not purely exploration based.
I dunno, I'm still just not feeling it so far. There's no challenge presented by actual platforming (so far), and little challenge from enemies (so far). So stages for me mostly devolve into poking around, looking for gems, and solving the (so far) rudimentary puzzles needed to reach them. I suppose I could skip the treasures and just try to beat the levels, but I get the feeling doing so defeats the point of the game, especially since the main paths have all been cake walks (so far! :P).
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: oohhboy on July 25, 2012, 12:41:13 AM
The main point of the game is looting the levels clean and running away before the univers implodes.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on July 25, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
That's the Sonic part of the levels. They play better than Sonic since Wario doesn't quite move as fast therefore even on your first playthrough you have time to respond. The problem I always had with Sonic games was that he was too fast for his own good. Sure it's pretty badass to zip through a level like a motherfucker, but you pretty much had to know the level off by heart and it really detracts from the enjoyment when you have to crawl your way through a level.
Came here to second this. The game feels a lot like a Sonic game in a weird way. Like the levels just have too much stuff while at the same time moving you through a little too quickly. It makes me feel like I am either missing a lot of the level, or spending too much time memorizing level layouts.
That said, I think the mechanics of this game are very solid, and the frantic run back to the start can be a lot of fun. I like better platforming physics out of my platformers, but this is a pretty fun puzzle-y platformer.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on July 25, 2012, 12:57:01 PM
I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but I STILL can't see why people voted for this as the RetroActive game.
Well look, 20, 30, 40+ hour strategy RPGs are horrible for Retroactive...it is damn refreshing to have one that my job-and-social-life-having ass can actually participate in!
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on July 25, 2012, 09:58:51 PM
I know I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but I STILL can't see why people voted for this as the RetroActive game.
Well look, 20, 30, 40+ hour strategy RPGs are horrible for Retroactive...it is damn refreshing to have one that my job-and-social-life-having ass can actually participate in!
Haha, point taken. ;)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: TheYoungerPlumber on July 27, 2012, 03:57:00 AM
Whenever I revisit Wario Land 4, I enjoy the music and most of the levels, but always feel like the game doesn't make as good use of Wario's transformations as the prior two entries for the Game Boy [Color]. A few levels, like the level with the rain, have lots of secret nooks and crannies that require you to observe and make use of Wario's transformations. But most of the level designs seem to ignore this staple of the series.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on July 27, 2012, 08:45:36 AM
Playing my first boss fight and I am starting to notice problems with the gameplay. I am on the floating teddybear boss and it is kind of frustrating how small the hit boxes are considering how large Wario is, the tight spaces you must navigate to hit the boss, and how inexact the physics feel at times. I feel like I am not really "getting" the feel of attacking with Wario and it is preventing me from having fun. The challenge isn't "me vs. boss", it's "me vs. controls", and that is never, ever fun.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 28, 2012, 04:44:25 AM
Playing my first boss fight and I am starting to notice problems with the gameplay. I am on the floating teddybear boss and it is kind of frustrating how small the hit boxes are considering how large Wario is, the tight spaces you must navigate to hit the boss, and how inexact the physics feel at times. I feel like I am not really "getting" the feel of attacking with Wario and it is preventing me from having fun. The challenge isn't "me vs. boss", it's "me vs. controls", and that is never, ever fun.
As much as I enjoyed the game I did find a few of the bosses to be a little frustrating. Cuckoo Condor for instance gave me quite a bit of hassle; trying to catch those eggs and throw back at the correct angle was difficult the first couple of times I tried it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 28, 2012, 04:51:19 AM
For those who didn't catch this a few months ago, I just thought I'd share Jeremy Parish's thoughts on Warioland 4. I could talk until I'm blue in the face about why Warioland 4 is awesome, but Parish makes the case more convincingly than I ever could.
Check it out - http://www.1up.com/features/wario-land-4-remains-best-portable-mario (http://www.1up.com/features/wario-land-4-remains-best-portable-mario)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 28, 2012, 11:20:48 AM
LOL, best portable Mario? I could not disagree more. The game looks nice, but it just feels off. The gameplay is not that great (I don't feel like I am as in control of Wario as I would like). I also don't feel tons of motivation to beat it. I am starting to think I just don't like Wario in general (I like WarioWare, but you don't really use Wario in them).
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on July 28, 2012, 11:50:51 AM
LOL, best portable Mario? I could not disagree more. The game looks nice, but it just feels off. The gameplay is not that great (I don't feel like I am as in control of Wario as I would like). I also don't feel tons of motivation to beat it. I am starting to think I just don't like Wario in general (I like WarioWare, but you don't really use Wario in them).
I'm starting to get a sense from this thread that many people just don't like Warioland games, lol. No biggie, I'm just a little surprised is all. I loved Warioland: Shake It, really enjoyed Warioland 4 and am digging Warioland 2 which I am currently playing. It's a great series in my opinion, but clearly it's not for everyone.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 28, 2012, 11:54:58 AM
I like Shake It, I will admit that (though I haven't beaten it yet).
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Hey Einstein! on July 30, 2012, 07:34:47 AM
I'm out. I up graded to a 3DS XL and after my system transfer I seem to have lost my save stats on all my eshop downloads. Even when using my original SD card in the new system. I was half way through the game and felt like I had seen enough to know that it wasn't for me. It's not a bad game, there is something there. But over all I found a lot of the levels (leading up to the dash back to the start) to be frustrating or a bit dull. Loved those dash back moments though! But not enough to start over, at least not with it still fresh in my memory.
I'm not going to give up on the series though. Hearing Greg and Jonny talking about Wario land 2 on the GBC this week has me wondering if that is a better realization of the ideas at the center of this game, so probably going to give that one a shot.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on July 30, 2012, 01:36:25 PM
That's quite an...erm....bold article. If you can't guess from my previous posts, I completely disagree with it, Rolling Stones comparisons aside. (Although, for the record, there really haven't been too many great Mario portable games, have there?) In other random thoughts, I actually kind of like the boss battles, unlike some posters above me. Sure, they can be a bit frustrating, but I still think they're pretty fun.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: ejamer on July 31, 2012, 11:38:35 AM
I really loved Wario Land 4 the first time through, and even had fun when the ambassador games were first release playing through the game again. But I haven't been very motivated to go back for more and it's been a bit of drudge work trying to play enough to refresh my opinions about the game.
The levels were often clever and enjoyable but didn't seem to hold enough secrets that I wanted to revisit them. The bosses were a highlight for me because they provided the only real challenge in the game and took some trial and error to figure out (although you could opt to buy special helper effects to take the edge off these challenges and make getting key treasures much easier if necessary). Mini games are a great way to earn bonuses during boss battles and a good reason to encourage coin collection, and even though the selection is small the quality is very good. That probably shouldn't be a surprise after playing the WarioWare series.
I do want to mention that the music and graphics were a lot of fun for a GBA title, and the story (what story there is) was presented well also. It's a shame that the hidden "soundtrack" feature was such a lame troll. Of the 10 hidden discs that were found in my last play through, only two approach something that I'd consider worth listening to at all... and I have no intention to go looking for others given how bad the already found tracks are.
One thing interesting about this game is how it fits into the Wario series. The original Wario Land is still one of my favorite Game Boy titles, but offers an experience that is much different than what later games did. The next two games get a lot of love from the NWR crew, and with good reason. The gimmick of having Wario be invincible but change forms based on interactions with enemies was neat and led to some interesting level design, but the games never really drew me in. Maybe due to the slow speed or limited screen size? Maybe because those games are more linear, without allowing you to jump back and forth between different stages or easily replay your favorites? Or maybe just because I didn't play those games when they were new and looking back years later makes the design innovations seem less impressive? Regardless, Wario Land 4 feels much more modern to me. It's got a quicker pace as Wario feels more limber and responsive, still includes multiple "forms" of Wario available to play around with, and has fun level design as you race back through the levels to reach the exit.
Two things I wanted to mention that I really enjoyed: (1) The lava level where everything freezes over at the halfway point and you end up racing back across a modified, ice-filled version of the level that you started in. Smart design and a fun level to play. (2) The little archaeologist dude who only exists for you to abuse during the mini bonus stages. Good running gag to keep having Wario use him as the solution to the puzzle. I feel like they could've expanded on this more... but was happy with things as they are.
My lasting take away from this game is simply that Wario Land Shake It! on Wii did a wonderful job of refining the formula. There are still issues with that game - I think that using coins for mini-games in Wario Land 4 is much more interesting than simply going to Syrup's shop, for example - but it generally takes all the design decisions from Wario Land 4 and improves on them. Including different goals and challenges for each level was a particularly good advancement in the Wii game as it gave overt incentive to go back and replay the same stage multiple times.
Anyway, that's my take.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: noname2200 on July 31, 2012, 04:33:56 PM
I don't care for any of the boss battles I've had so far. The enemy patterns aren't all that complex or interesting, but they have a ton of health, so the fights just drag on.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on August 01, 2012, 04:43:11 PM
I have to say, even though I complained about this game a little bit already...it's kind of growing on me. I am starting to "get" the controls a bit more, so the bosses are less frustrating. Plus, as soon as you submit to the fact that the first attempt (or two) at a boss is a throw-away in order to learn the pattern, it becomes less irritating. I still feel like the levels ask a little too much in the way of memorization, but given the small number of them, the hidden items, and the score targets, there actually is a little bit of an incentive to get to know the levels intimately.
All that said, I probably will only do enough to complete the game. As others have pointed out, the CD collection is dumb, and I am not so sure I care much about high scores at this point in my life.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: oohhboy on August 03, 2012, 11:09:36 AM
When I had first played through this game years ago, I didn't look into the "CD" collection until I unlocked every single one. So when I finally had a look at it expecting some sort of sound test like feature I was a little ticked off and perplexed. But then I realised this is a Wario game, and in true Wario fashion, I was getting trolled by the developer Wario style. Rather fitting really even though I would have preferred the sound test.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 08, 2012, 03:30:47 PM
This is my first experience with Wario Land 4 and I tend to agree with other first-timers.
It's a fun game with novel ideas, but I think that's where it annoyed me. The expanded life bar only insulted me at first, suggesting that I'm in for a world of hurt and need the supposed "handicap." I grew up in older style 2d side-scrollers and if it something moved, I stay away from it. The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here. The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great! However, I have to find out by accident. This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things. That's where the game gets frustrating. I don't like being expected to fail to succeed. If I fell down a pit, it's because I messed up... surprise! I was supposed to drop there to find a treasure. Now I find myself chucking Wario down every hole.
If you look at DK94, there are little cut scenes that show the general expectations. Without that, the game becomes a child with a fork kind of mentality: Let's see what responds to pokes!
The level design is great for a portable, keeping things tight and simple with a move forward until you can't anymore then move up/down. I agree with other sentiments towards the time trial back. Thankfully, the game encourages a enough exploration to identify where detours will occur, but the rush of making it back in time creates the central, most addictive, trait of the game: Greed. Do I go for the money or will I not have enough time to make it back? I think that's where the game shines. Naturally, we quickly develop a "Yeah, I can get that in time!" judgment process, but it creeps up and gets worse as the game goes on. To THAT, I say kudos.
So far, haven't felt compelled to race back through a level to scavenge for what I've missed. The short levels unfortunately reinforce this instead of discourage it.
Other than that, the art is wit of the game is great and it controls nicely. I just wish it assumed less.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pandareus on August 14, 2012, 10:07:05 AM
It's a fun game with novel ideas, but I think that's where it annoyed me. The expanded life bar only insulted me at first, suggesting that I'm in for a world of hurt and need the supposed "handicap." I grew up in older style 2d side-scrollers and if it something moved, I stay away from it. The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here. The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great! However, I have to find out by accident. This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things. That's where the game gets frustrating.
Very good points. As were the points someone else made earlier about the game not teaching you properly all the moves before thrusting you in levels that require them, like the Super Butt Stomp.
I beat the final boss last night, and honest question: how did anyone ever figure out how to use the hammer? I had to look it up.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: ejamer on August 14, 2012, 11:19:06 AM
(Wario apologist, since nobody else seems interested in standing up for the game.)
... Very good points. As were the points someone else made earlier about the game not teaching you properly all the moves before thrusting you in levels that require them, like the Super Butt Stomp.
I beat the final boss last night, and honest question: how did anyone ever figure out how to use the hammer? I had to look it up.
The very first (ie: mandatory tutorial) level teaches you how to do the Super Butt Stomp and shows you when it is required. You can also check the manual to gets tips or hints about where and when to apply Wario's different moves.
Using the hammer in the final boss battle is one of the trickiest parts of the game because by that point you aren't thinking about changing Wario's form - I don't recall having to do that for any other boss in the game. But you would've come in contact with hammer enemies before that use the same weapon sprite. Even if you don't put 2+2 together yourself, it's very possible that you will discover the point of the hammer after throwing it at the boss and accidentally getting in the way where it lands. My one complaint here is that they didn't give some precedent with earlier bosses, or even earlier with the same boss fight, not that they added a cool element you have to figure out during the battle.
... The game knows this but didn't tell me it's not the standard here. The idea of using status effects to solve puzzles is great! However, I have to find out by accident. This would generally be forgivable, BUT the game tosses in enemies that do nothing but damage you, reinforcing the original teachings to avoid all moving things. That's where the game gets frustrating. I don't like being expected to fail to succeed. If I fell down a pit, it's because I messed up... surprise! I was supposed to drop there to find a treasure. Now I find myself chucking Wario down every hole. ...
There are almost always strong clues and hints about where secrets are placed, and while interactions with enemies aren't outright explained they are often suggested. So the trial-and-error really shouldn't be as bad as suggested as you are typically give clear direction about where to go (or subtle direction about where secrets reside).
As for figuring out how to transform Wario, the manual describes all of Wario's different forms and there are some places where transformations are essentially forced. It's also the fourth game in the series. Learning how to change forms and what each new form allows you to do is part of the fun of exploration for many people, not a gameplay burden.
If people don't like the game because it challenges some of their expectations and standards, I can understand but not really sympathize. Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design". Keep your eyes peeled and your thinking cap on while playing instead of just assuming that old Mario paradigms should always apply here too!
(Apologist mode off. Caveat: There are some design areas that clearly could've been improved in the game and I don't really think all the concerns posted are due to gamers being lazy. However, I do think that some of the complaints posted in this thread come from people applying expectations to the game prior to playing instead of just exploring the game with an open mind.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on August 14, 2012, 12:03:24 PM
Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design".
No. Just...no. There's a reason why Zelda games don't make you burn random bushes to find dungeons anymore, homie.
And have we learned nothing from the Lair fiasco?
If a lot of people complain about some aspect of a game, they didn't like it. It's sort of the whole point of giving your opinion. It's not "playing the game wrong".
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: ejamer on August 14, 2012, 09:49:32 PM
Wario Land 4 isn't a perfect game but a lot of the complaints here seem to fall into "lazy gamer" categories than "poor design".
No. Just...no. There's a reason why Zelda games don't make you burn random bushes to find dungeons anymore, homie.
And have we learned nothing from the Lair fiasco?
If a lot of people complain about some aspect of a game, they didn't like it. It's sort of the whole point of giving your opinion. It's not "playing the game wrong".
You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.
Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)
Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.
I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.
("I play CounterStrike competitively and when I try to play Halo the same way it doesn't work very well. Therefore Halo sucks." WTF? No! Approach different games with a clean slate instead of trying to apply lessons learned in one game directly to the other. Even if Mario games have taught you to avoid enemies on pain of death in all cases, you aren't playing a Mario game so leave that preconception at the door.)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pandareus on August 14, 2012, 11:42:08 PM
Is there a way to see which boss' treasures we're missing? I'd rather not refight all of them.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on August 15, 2012, 10:08:04 AM
You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.
Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)
Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.
I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.
You are completely missing the point. If people don't like some aspect of a game, they don't like it. If they are forgetting a mechanic, it may be that the designers didn't use it often enough or didn't include necessary reminders. Or maybe not. But OPINION is not something that can be argued on factual grounds. And if a majority of peoples' OPINIONS are that some aspect of a game is frustrating or not fun, THAT is what makes bad game design. I am not saying that Warioware 4 has bad game design, but it is certainly not the case that peoples' arguments about frustrating elements of the game are their fault. They just find those elements frustrating.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on August 15, 2012, 10:10:10 AM
-deleted this post because I thought it might come across as flame-y I don't want to do that ;)-
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: ejamer on August 15, 2012, 10:51:11 AM
You are taking one sentence from my argument out of context and then offering comparisons that aren't similar on a lot of important levels.
Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)
Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.
I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.
You are completely missing the point. If people don't like some aspect of a game, they don't like it. If they are forgetting a mechanic, it may be that the designers didn't use it often enough or didn't include necessary reminders. Or maybe not. But OPINION is not something that can be argued on factual grounds. And if a majority of peoples' OPINIONS are that some aspect of a game is frustrating or not fun, THAT is what makes bad game design. I am not saying that Warioware 4 has bad game design, but it is certainly not the case that peoples' arguments about frustrating elements of the game are their fault. They just find those elements frustrating.
Fair enough. http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4 (http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4) The majority of people seem to think Wario Land 4 is ok, so I'll stand by my statement.
That said, you've got a really good point that a bunch of people won't like the game for a bunch of different reasons, and that they are perfectly entitled to their opinions. Some of the complaints don't hold much weight for me, but my opinion doesn't matter much when others are coming to grips with their own feelings about the game.
(And I don't mind if you put some flame-y sounding content out, as should be obvious by now. Anything to lively up this discussion. Just don't take any of my responses too seriously!)
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: ejamer on August 15, 2012, 10:53:08 AM
Is there a way to see which boss' treasures we're missing? I'd rather not refight all of them.
Is there even a way to refight bosses without finishing the game first? I was under the impression that you had to finish the game and then start over (ie: only on boss fights) if you missed a treasure. This is possibly the most annoying aspect of the game for me - but it's not something I explored enough to see if there was a better solution for.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pandareus on August 15, 2012, 01:56:46 PM
I did beat the game and I got a screen telling me the bosses were back and I could go get the treasures I missed. And they are back.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 15, 2012, 05:12:03 PM
Where does Wario Land 4 make you burn random bushes? Almost nothing in the game is just randomly hidden - level design and graphical hints give away virtually all of the secrets for anyone who pays attention. (The rest of the secrets should be found through normal exploration - part of the Wario Land series from day 1.)
Not paying attention to (or at least remembering) then controls in a simple 2D platformer, refusing to check the manual or replay the mandatory in-game tutorial, and then blaming the game for not introducing certain moves doesn't really compare to having extremely difficult or broken controls.
I never said the game was perfect, and am not trying to dismiss all criticism of it. But some of the complaints posted here aren't very meaningful and sound like people came in with expectations instead of just trying to experience the game.
("I play CounterStrike competitively and when I try to play Halo the same way it doesn't work very well. Therefore Halo sucks." WTF? No! Approach different games with a clean slate instead of trying to apply lessons learned in one game directly to the other. Even if Mario games have taught you to avoid enemies on pain of death in all cases, you aren't playing a Mario game so leave that preconception at the door.)
Guess it’s my turn J… Good points. From an apologist viewpoint, it's easy to reclaim ground for the designers by inferring that the gamer is being lazy. Hell, it worked for Demon Souls and Dark Souls, right? However, just as much can be said about the story the designers are trying to tell with their level design. The various mosaic frameworks that levels are cased in do not, in fact, assist in designer hints at secret locations. I've randomly shoulder charged into walls because I like feeling mighty and the wall breaks to a secret location. No hints, just dumb-luck. While that's all well and good, it can be distracting in that it conflicts with the story of the level. This is what I'm mainly trying to describe that the game could fix: A need for generally consistency. Being the fourth iteration only drives home the fact that the formula should have been streamlined. To assume that the manual is the saving grace is a lazy designer. The manual doesn't tell us the location of everything in the game, assuming that we'll experiment with the world given. This is why I think the damage-only enemies kind of ruin the game's story. Even if you read the manual, you'll think that every enemy will do something neat which is not the case and creates conflicting ideals? Do I pet or punch that baddie? The conversation between designer and gamer gets muddled because of this. Now conversation is the keyword here. We can’t go into any game tabula rasa because, even if we haven’t played the game, we live in a world that it exists in, meaning all games are compared to one another and the designer has to approach the game with that in mind. However, if they go into it assuming your ideal “clean slate” and the player has not played a video game before, then the designer has failed to get the player acclimated to the game style. If they really wanted to break the preconceptions, then all enemies would have a status effect to encourage player experimentation. This is not the case, so we have two conclusions: They either didn’t want to entirely break the preconceptions or they fell short of achieving their goal of “thinking outside the box.” This isn’t game breaking though. It’s a complaint, yes, but not with its work-arounds. The game is graphically nice and the platforming is quick. The pressure-sensitive jumps are a blessing and a curse at times. The speed runs back to the start are excellent, as I said before. The status effects and fun and I like those moments of when you first encounter an effect and just sit there for a bit toying with the possibilities. This game has good, but nostalgia isn’t an appropriate shield to criticisms. That’s part of what’s to be discussed, right? Whether or not it stands the test of time? I think so, regardless of the problems mentioned.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: syn4aptik on August 16, 2012, 12:26:37 PM
Fair enough. http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4 (http://www.metacritic.com/game/game-boy-advance/wario-land-4) The majority of people seem to think Wario Land 4 is ok, so I'll stand by my statement.
You know to be honest, I think the game is pretty good. And I am sure some of the people complaining here do as well (88 on metacritic seems high to me, but that's me). But there are some elements that are frustrating. Nintendo does this a lot. Their games can be very good mechanically, artistically, conceptually, etc. but then you run into some quirk of the game that is baffling. I complain heavily about a lot of the stars in Mario Galaxy (like the completely un-fun trash robot stars), but I LOVE that game. Windwaker was fantastic, but the Triforce hunt at the end was so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't bring myself to play through it again.
But I digress. I think it is good to pick at these games for Retroactive. Part of the fun is comparing old games to new in order to see how the games were influential, or where the industry has learned from their mistakes.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: leahsdad on August 17, 2012, 01:23:13 AM
Almost done with this game, and I'm enjoying it a lot. Other people have touched on this, but I think the point at which the game really shines is when your hit the bomb-frog (is there an accepted name for this?) . You don't want to hit the frog statue until you've found every piece of the pie-thingy that you can. These parts are very slow, and tense at times. But at some point in the level, you have to place a bit of blind faith in the game and the game's level designer. You have to tell yourself "I trust that when I hit the frog, the game will show me the way to the other pie-piece things." Maybe you see the little outlined bricks that will be filled in. But you probably have no idea where they will lead you. It is a leap of faith.
And once you do, as everyone else has said, the game becomes Sonic, but actually good. The music changes, and man, that chiming is crazy. Why clock chiming? That doesn't induce a sense of urgency for me. It induces of sense of psychological fear and insanity. This weird feeling that Wario wouldn't feel out of place in Eternal Darkness is compounded by the generally dark levels and the plodding music. I swear, the music in Mystic Jungle sounds right out of the Cure's Disintegration. Trust me, I know, I grew up in the 80's.
And tell me, why is the key the beak of a bird?
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: oohhboy on August 17, 2012, 02:57:11 AM
... And tell me, why is the key the beak of a bird?
I always thought that was a little ghost. Not that it would make more sense if it was...
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 17, 2012, 04:16:51 PM
I think it's a ghost, but I like the key-nosed critter. It seems like a nice call back to Super Mario Brothers 2 (US) where you had to grab key and get chased. Frankly, I've tried carrying enemies across the tight platforming and I'm glad I don't have to lug a key around too.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pixelated Pixies on August 17, 2012, 05:29:29 PM
But there are some elements that are frustrating. Nintendo does this a lot. Their games can be very good mechanically, artistically, conceptually, etc. but then you run into some quirk of the game that is baffling. I complain heavily about a lot of the stars in Mario Galaxy (like the completely un-fun trash robot stars), but I LOVE that game. Windwaker was fantastic, but the Triforce hunt at the end was so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't bring myself to play through it again.
I feel you. I often find Nintendo games generally are like 80% inspiration and 20% frustration. Nintendo have a tendency to take a great basis for a game and add frustrating or superfluous elements. I guess you just have to take the bad with the good.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Jonnyboy117 on August 18, 2012, 08:25:14 PM
We are definitely going to discuss Wario Land 4 on episode 303.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 22, 2012, 10:28:01 AM
Does anyone else get annoyed when the game gives multiple paths and then makes one of them one-way?
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Pandareus on August 22, 2012, 10:48:55 AM
I get annoyed at every game that does this, at least when the main path isn't clearly marked. Now I know making the main path clear defeats the point of making a level maze-like, but if you're not going to allow me to go back and explore at my leisure, I want the path to be marked clearly so I can fully see everything before taking it.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 22, 2012, 12:22:06 PM
I guess it's harder to accomplish because the game isn't a basic move forward or up.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: rebonack on August 22, 2012, 08:57:25 PM
I've tried playing Wario Land 4 a few times in the past, and I didn't much care for it. Now I'm playing it, having recently played through both Wario Land 1 and Virtual Boy Wario Land, and I'm enjoying it way more. I imagine it's probably because now I have a better idea of what to expect from a Wario game (even if it is still pretty different from 1 and VB). I like that the levels are maze-like, but still designed well enough that I don't find myself getting lost. Most of the time I end up finding all of the shards and key on my first run through the level, even if I don't explore everywhere, because the designs are good at communicating where I need to go. This isn't always the case, but generally I think it's very successful in that regard.
Reading some reviews, I see that a lot of them seem to complain about the fact that it's not all that advanced from Wario Land 3, but having never played much of that game, it hasn't affected me. To be honest, I own Wario Land 3 and I don't much care for it from what little I've played -- I feel that there's not enough direction. With the day/night system and the world map and the upgrades, I'm never sure where I should go next. In that respect, Wario Land 4 feels like it's got some maze-like aspects to it, but it's still well enough designed that I can enjoy it without getting frustrated.
Of course, I felt the same way about Wario Land 4 when I first tried it when the Ambassador games came out, and now I really like it. I think I'll give WL3 another shot once I finish this one (or maybe even tonight, since I forgot my 3DS at work).
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 23, 2012, 12:31:28 PM
So far, my favorite levels are in Topaz. The Big Board was a blast! What levels are sticking in your mind?
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: Glad0s on August 24, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
Does anyone else get annoyed when the game gives multiple paths and then makes one of them one-way?
YEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Also, as I said before (over a month ago at this point), The Big Board is my favorite level in the game. Very clever design.
Btw, as far as next RetroActive goes, I'd like to see a Wii poll. We're getting close to the end, and it'd be a good way to send it out in style. You could do stuff like Zack and Wiki, BlastWorks, etc. The only problem is that since the podcast has been going for the entirety of the Wii's life cycle, there are relatively few games for it (that are any good) that haven't been talked about on the show. Still, I'm sure you guys could think of some.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: pandaradox on August 27, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
Beat the game... Kinda wish there was a coupon for All You Can Eat Steak... Would've totally out done the Halo guys.
Title: Re: RetroActive #23: Wario Land 4 (Official Discussion)
Post by: rebonack on August 27, 2012, 03:48:22 PM
I'm listening to the podcast now, and my post got called out -- now playing through four Wario Land games in a row is all worth it.
Admittedly, Wario Land has clearly changed a lot throughout the series -- particularly if, like me, you skip WL2 and 3. Wario Land 4 is vastly different from the earliest games in the series. But despite that, I do think that the first game and the VB game at the very least helped put my expectations in check. I said recently that I appreciated Wario Land 1 more than the Super Mario Land games because it really tries to break out of the mold of those games -- that is, of trying to emulate the console games. Wario Land really is a whole different beast from Mario. With the dash, the butt stomp, and the various hats, even in a very basic sense, Wario has a whole different feel to him. Beyond that, the games have more slow-paced levels with a focus on exploration, which I think is pretty consistent throughout the series. I mean, you won't find yourself crouching down and crawling in tiny spaces or crashing through bricks in most traditional Mario games.
That's mostly what I was referring to when I said that playing older games in the series prepared me. While there are a lot of changes throughout the series, with its increased focus on exploration, the completely different abilities and power-ups, I still think there's enough consistency that playing the older games helped me get into the series.
...
Going a little off topic here, I mentioned in my last post that I was going to give Wario Land 3 another shot, and I am -- and I'm really enjoying it. Much like Wario Land 4, I think a better understanding of the series really helped. I think that Wario Land 3 in particular can be overwhelming to a series newcomer. I really like the variety of abilities, and the lack of death makes me not hesitate to run right into an enemy to see what will happen. I do like the exploration aspect, but I still think it could be handled better. I wish there were more indications of where to use my new treasures. I think it's great that stages are highlighted right after you get a treasure -- unless I'm not paying attention or if I forget the others after going to one of them. Obviously there's the temple too, but that seems to be purely about progressing forward, not necessarily about exploring for optional treasures.
But there is a lot to love about the game, and I do think it's superior to Wario Land 4. I hope that one day you guys do a RetroActive for Wario Land 3, as I'm really enjoying it, but I don't know if I'd put it quite on the pedestal that some people do. It definitely feels like the most ambitious title in the series, but it's not without a few flaws as a result of that.
