Topic: Retro Studios Had a Hard Time Deciding Between Making a New Donkey Kong or Metroid Title

[Ian Sane]

My only beef with these Donkey Kong Country games is that there are no Kremlings or King K. Rule. It doesn't feel like DKC anymore. Even DK King of Swing had them still. I guess it is like playing a Mario game but without Bowser or Koopa Troopa's in it. Maybe that would be considered a shot in the arm for the franchise but it's just part of what I consider a DKC element and just seems to like that arch-rival element like Mario vs Bowser, Sonic vs Robotnik, Link vs Ganondorf.

See to me this attitude just encourages stagnation.  Mario facing Bowser every time is BORING.  Batman doesn't fight the Joker in every issue, you know?  If you treat the details as essential elements a series becomes really stale really fast.  I never even remotely gave a damn that DKC Returns did not have have Kremlings.  It still has the same platforming gameplay so it always still felt authentic to me.

[Adrock]

Batman has an actual plot. Mario doesn't. It's just some arbitrary reason why Peach is too goddamn lazy to save herself. That's why it doesn't matter that Mario faces Bowser every time. Now, if that boss was exactly the same every time, that would be boring. Bowser does something different every time. If it wasn't Bowser, it would be some other character doing those things. Substituting Bowser only changes what you're looking at.

[Khushrenada]

My only beef with these Donkey Kong Country games is that there are no Kremlings or King K. Rule. It doesn't feel like DKC anymore. Even DK King of Swing had them still. I guess it is like playing a Mario game but without Bowser or Koopa Troopa's in it. Maybe that would be considered a shot in the arm for the franchise but it's just part of what I consider a DKC element and just seems to like that arch-rival element like Mario vs Bowser, Sonic vs Robotnik, Link vs Ganondorf.

See to me this attitude just encourages stagnation.  Mario facing Bowser every time is BORING.  Batman doesn't fight the Joker in every issue, you know?  If you treat the details as essential elements a series becomes really stale really fast.  I never even remotely gave a damn that DKC Returns did not have have Kremlings.  It still has the same platforming gameplay so it always still felt authentic to me.

See, that's the conflict I have as well in that I'm glad there are new characters and you don't want a situation like Star Fox Adventures where Andross is suddenly just dumped into the end because he's the Star Fox villain. It's just that it has been over a decade since we've had K. Rule act as the nemesis and I miss it. It gave Donkey Kong more of an identity. Just like Mario has an identity with and is identified by his fight with Bowser. There have been some other Mario games where Bowser isn't the villain but they've done a bit more storywise in those games as well. There's nothing really profound I can tell about the story for this game so why not have King K. Rule as the villian? Would you really be compaining about that if it had been announced?

[Adrock]

Would you really be compaining about that if it had been announced?

You just asked Ian Sane if he would be complaining. Is that even a real question?

[Ian Sane]

My only beef with these Donkey Kong Country games is that there are no Kremlings or King K. Rule. It doesn't feel like DKC anymore. Even DK King of Swing had them still. I guess it is like playing a Mario game but without Bowser or Koopa Troopa's in it. Maybe that would be considered a shot in the arm for the franchise but it's just part of what I consider a DKC element and just seems to like that arch-rival element like Mario vs Bowser, Sonic vs Robotnik, Link vs Ganondorf.

See to me this attitude just encourages stagnation.  Mario facing Bowser every time is BORING.  Batman doesn't fight the Joker in every issue, you know?  If you treat the details as essential elements a series becomes really stale really fast.  I never even remotely gave a damn that DKC Returns did not have have Kremlings.  It still has the same platforming gameplay so it always still felt authentic to me.

See, that's the conflict I have as well in that I'm glad there are new characters and you don't want a situation like Star Fox Adventures where Andross is suddenly just dumped into the end because he's the Star Fox villain. It's just that it has been over a decade since we've had K. Rule act as the nemesis and I miss it. It gave Donkey Kong more of an identity. Just like Mario has an identity with and is identified by his fight with Bowser. There have been some other Mario games where Bowser isn't the villain but they've done a bit more storywise in those games as well. There's nothing really profound I can tell about the story for this game so why not have King K. Rule as the villian? Would you really be compaining about that if it had been announced?

I wouldn't care if K. Rool is involved since we've been away from him for a while.  Though you know what would be REALLY neat?  If MARIO was the villian like he was in Donkey Kong Jr!  That would probably shock a few people.  Though you know Nintendo would never EVER consider doing that these days.  They would probably consider that idea damaging to Mario's marketability.

[Khushrenada]

Would you really be compaining about that if it had been announced?

You just asked Ian Sane if he would be complaining. Is that even a real question?

Yes and I received the answer I was looking for. His only complaint about my wanting K. Rule in the game was what he mentioned about creating a situation where there is little reason to innovate. It had nothing to do with the character itself and he wouldn't have made any fuss about it if he had shown up.

I know it is easy to seem like Ian is negative about everything but he can also be positive on things and he isn't being negative for the sake of it. He gives reasons for what he dislikes and why which is the proper way to give an opinion. But I've always been able to understand where he is coming from a lot of times more than other people on this site. Maybe it's a Canadian thing. It creates discussion and a sharing of different viewpoints on a matter which is the reason for these forums.

People forget that if he didn't actually like Nintendo or their games, he would have left a long time ago. He still buys and plays them and like all of us, shares what he thinks could be done better or speculates on why things aren't going right and shares what he would like to see in the future. No different than anyone else really. Just my take on it all.

[Mop it up]

My problem with Ian Sane is that he often expresses his complaints in a condescending way. And sometimes, he posts the same thing too much. Otherwise, I don't have an issue with what he does, and he raises some good points sometimes. He's certainly not the worst poster here.

[NeoStar9X]

**** YOU RETRO

This is how I feel. I understand why they might have gone in this direction. The engine is there, they have the assets, and it will likely sell more. The game likely will be great. However doesn't mean I'm not still disappointed. This was THE disappointment for me out of the Nintendo Direct. It's the thing that had me in sort of a funk for a while this morning but I'm over it now. I've just accepted that I have to buy a PS4 at some point or just invest in a bigger upgrade for my PC.

I do hope though that this stops Nintendo fans from putting Retro on the damn pedestal they've put them on. That this stops them from looking at Retro as some damn savior to western Nintendo fans that want to be catered to. Accept that Nintendo won't.

Buy a second console or invest in a PC for experiences that Nintendo refuses to provide. You'll be better off and a lot less frustrated.

[Adrock]

Would you really be compaining about that if it had been announced?

You just asked Ian Sane if he would be complaining. Is that even a real question?

Yes and I received the answer I was looking for. His only complaint about my wanting K. Rule in the game was what he mentioned about creating a situation where there is little reason to innovate. It had nothing to do with the character itself and he wouldn't have made any fuss about it if he had shown up.

I know it is easy to seem like Ian is negative about everything but he can also be positive on things and he isn't being negative for the sake of it. He gives reasons for what he dislikes and why which is the proper way to give an opinion. But I've always been able to understand where he is coming from a lot of times more than other people on this site. Maybe it's a Canadian thing. It creates discussion and a sharing of different viewpoints on a matter which is the reason for these forums.

People forget that if he didn't actually like Nintendo or their games, he would have left a long time ago. He still buys and plays them and like all of us, shares what he thinks could be done better or speculates on why things aren't going right and shares what he would like to see in the future. No different than anyone else really. Just my take on it all.

I was joking. I harbor no ill will toward anyone on NWR.

Still, like Mop It Up said, he can be condescending which gets old. For example, his insistence that casual gamers who like motion control games are "rubes." That line of thinking is total bullshit. Just because others like something he detests doesn't make them stupid.

[nickmitch]

I'm just gonna say while I would've greatly preferred more Metroid, especially if Retro was on a 2D kick, I'm glad they picked the game they wanted to do more. Or at least I'll pretend to be.

[Khushrenada]

Retro seems to have supplanted Rare in a lot Nintendo fan's minds. And when you think about the timing of it all, Rare's last game being Star Fox Adventures and Metroid Prime from Retro occuring at close the same time I think made people gravitate towards Retro as being the answer to fill that hole. Especially with the detail they put in games like Rare did.
The problem for me is that Retro is not as prolific as Rare was. The amount of games Rare put out is far superior to what Retro has provided so far. (Whether people want to argue who's better isn't the point, I'm taking quantity here) So waiting every 3 years for a new release for them or so is pointless because they clearly aren't going to provide the fill-ins neccessary for whatever gaps people see in Nintendo's software line-up. Not to mention they have now only done Metroid and Donkey Kong. Their range of games is nowhere near the variety Rare provided either. If anything, Retro took the place of what Silicon Knights could have been. A solid dependable developer that can release a couple quality titles each generation but SK was never going to be releasing a bunch of games each year.

The loss of Rare has still been a big issue for Nintendo that they've never been able to solve since that first year of the Gamecube. As much as some people like to show derision towards Rare for how they fell apart after leaving Nintendo, (which has happened to quite a few developers which makes it so bizarre why so many keep making that decision) you can't help but wonder what things might be like right now in the software history of the GC, Wii and now Wii U if they were still making the amount of games they had provided before and if they would have kept creating new IP's or at least developing them further.

Maybe there wouldn't have been such a big debate about hardcore and casual games in the Wii generation. Maybe the extra software output would have helped the GC grab a bit more marketshare. It was probably a lost generation for the most part but with the extra software and some of those more "mature" franchises maybe GC would have made a bigger fight. And now with the Wii U, maybe they would help in solving a lot of this drought issue everyone is freaking out over.

But it is all speculation and until we can travel to the proper parallel universes, we'll never know. I do think it is worth pointing out.

[Caterkiller]

My only beef with these Donkey Kong Country games is that there are no Kremlings or King K. Rule. It doesn't feel like DKC anymore. Even DK King of Swing had them still. I guess it is like playing a Mario game but without Bowser or Koopa Troopa's in it. Maybe that would be considered a shot in the arm for the franchise but it's just part of what I consider a DKC element and just seems to like that arch-rival element like Mario vs Bowser, Sonic vs Robotnik, Link vs Ganondorf.

See to me this attitude just encourages stagnation.  Mario facing Bowser every time is BORING.  Batman doesn't fight the Joker in every issue, you know?  If you treat the details as essential elements a series becomes really stale really fast.  I never even remotely gave a damn that DKC Returns did not have have Kremlings.  It still has the same platforming gameplay so it always still felt authentic to me.

You always complain about Bowser like its some true limitation. Every 3D Mario he is fighting in a different way and in Galaxy he wasn't even restricted by his design. I mean how in the world was he just flying for no reason? If Kremlings don't matter when they're absent then why does Bowser matter when he is present?

You say things like fans beg for X character to show up in sequels, yet you know it's not so much the character that makes the difference but what X represents. According to that, Bowser has a lot of value so why are you always on the crusade of a new Mario villain? Especially when that would hardly make a difference to what's really important to the game like gravity affects, cloud power, etc.

Now as far as narrative is concerned I could understand fighting the same bad guy over and over. But Mario's story means nothing in the main games so what does it matter? Nothing that's what.

I really expected Retro to be working on a new game so I was slightly disappointed in that regard. But to be mad at them for making a sequel to a franchise that was only recently revived is just... I don't know, makes some of you sound like babies. There are plenty other games that aren't 2D platformers and/or cartoony that you will certainly be happy with. 

[Kytim89]

This is the main reason why I think that Nintendo should have bought Vigil Games because they are located in Austin, Texas with Retro Studios and could act as a supplement to them for bigger game projects.

[NintendoFanboy]

Those were ur only choices?  so sad as the NS6 needs
An identity that a fresh franchise would have given.
Instead we get more Mario, DK, and Zelda remakes .

[Ian Sane]

Still, like Mop It Up said, he can be condescending which gets old. For example, his insistence that casual gamers who like motion control games are "rubes." That line of thinking is total bullshit. Just because others like something he detests doesn't make them stupid.

I use the term "rubes" not because casual gamers have different tastes than me but because I feel that Nintendo's strategy is to INTENTIONALLY offer a half-assed product and sell it to this demograhic because they are too ignorant of gaming as a whole to know they could have better.  I see the Wii as a con and cons prey on rubes.  Nintendo is really who sees them as rubes or marks or suckers.  I feel that Nintendo would never have made the Wii or games like Wii Sports as is if they were targetting an audience more familiar with videogames.

I agree with Khushrenada about the void Rare left that has never been filled.  I think the most important thing was that we got games with Nintendo quality that did not necesssarily have the same style or feel as Nintendo games.  That provided variety.  It's a good thing that EAD or Retro or Intelligent Systems or HAL all have their own little styles that adds flavour and variety to the overall Nintendo experience.  Since Rare left I feel Nintendo has become very homogenus.  EAD's influence is everywhere which results in a lack of variety.  This wouldn't be so bad if Nintendo had good third party support but they don't.  Therefore it is MUCH more important for them to provide the variety themselves and they don't.  We wanted something different from Retro just to get some variety from Nintendo.  Instead it's all just the same franchises that you feel could be handed to anyone and the identity and uniqueness of each developer is lost.  It really was never about Retro.  We just want some variety and something fresh and new and we just ASSUMED that Retro would the one that could provide us with it.  The same old games from Nintendo have gotten stale.  I think for a lot of fans the Wii U is that point where that really hit them because they have to buy a new console and they find themselves thinking "Why?"  If a new console provides nothing truly new then it is largely arbitrary that Nintendo is even asking you to buy one.

[Adrock]

I use the term "rubes" not because casual gamers have different tastes than me but because I feel that Nintendo's strategy is to INTENTIONALLY offer a half-assed product and sell it to this demograhic because they are too ignorant of gaming as a whole to know they could have better.  I see the Wii as a con and cons prey on rubes.  Nintendo is really who sees them as rubes or marks or suckers.  I feel that Nintendo would never have made the Wii or games like Wii Sports as is if they were targetting an audience more familiar with videogames.

So the years and millions of dollars they invested on research and development was all an elaborate plan to prey on stupid people with half-assed products?

they are too ignorant of gaming as a whole to know they could have better.

See, that's you being condesceding again. You're assuming that casual gamers should view gaming the same way you do. Yet they don't give a damn about Zelda or God of War or Halo or [insert core series here]. If they did, they already would have bought those games. In fact, it's ignorant to assume their preferences is ignorance. Not liking core games is much of what makes them casual gamers. What is "better" is a matter of perspective. "Better" is whatever someone enjoys more. Nintendo spent a fortune trying to figure out how to reach them because Mario and Metroid sure as hell weren't getting it done. If Nintendo wanted to **** out a bad product, they could have easily done so without the enormous bill. You're not more informed than casual gamers. You just want something very different from them which is fine until you start denigrating others for their preferences.

[Ian Sane]

There are situations where I see it as someone having different tastes.  Like I don't like what they like but I get WHY they would like it.  Then there are times where it seems like someone is getting scammed.  To me the Wii was just Malibu Stacy with a new hat.  It relied on it's target audience to not know that it was effectively just a re-released Gamecube.  That isn't a different opinon on the part of casuals but rather a lack of knowledge.  Nintendo is selling them an apple and calling it a ruby.  It is not a matter of opinion but rather someone taking advantage of someone who doesn't have enough knowledge to know better.  I say "rubes" because I think that that is what Nintendo sees them as.

If you think dirt tastes great and you've never tasted sugar your opinion means nothing.  Your statement would be of ignorance.  I think that Nintendo intentionally preyed on that ignorance.  Preying on ignorance is very common in business so it would not be like Nintendo is out-of-the-ordinary in doing this.

I would say that the Xbox One preys on rubes too, that don't know better about its extreme DRM (or MS is hoping it will).  MS is relying on a large chunk of their customerbase to not be fully aware of the consumer rights they would be giving up.  If I call someone a rube it isn't because I think they have bad taste but that I think they are supporting a company that is intentionally trying to screw them.  It is less of an insult on the "rube" but rather an accusation on the company.

[pokepal148]

yeah Ian...

[Oblivion]

No need to insult another member like that.

[ShyGuy]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold over 4 million. Metroid Prime 3 sold around 1.5 million. I think this was a factor.

[pokepal148]

No need to insult another member like that.

"idiots" is the wrong word, but the rambling part fits him quite well

[Adrock]

There are situations where I see it as someone having different tastes.  Like I don't like what they like but I get WHY they would like it.  Then there are times where it seems like someone is getting scammed.  To me the Wii was just Malibu Stacy with a new hat. It relied on it's target audience to not know that it was effectively just a re-released Gamecube.  That isn't a different opinon on the part of casuals but rather a lack of knowledge.

Again, you're assuming they should view gaming the way you do. You care about the hardware. Casual gamers do not. They don't care what the hardware is; they care about what it does and it was the only one that let them play Wii Sports. You call it getting scammed, but are you even trying to see it from their perspective? They already looked at core games and decided, "I don't want these." Nintendo was just smart enough to give them something they wanted. If Nintendo knew what they had (e.g. a console that would be constantly sold out for nearly two years), maybe they would have included better hardware.

You insist that Nintendo preyed on ignorance, but there are major holes in that argument. You haven't addressed why they would spend millions in research and development (probably more than they did on Gamecube and Nintendo 64) to do so. People give Nintendo **** for Wii hardware, but they still had to pay IBM and AMD to develop Broadway and Hollywood. If they were really masterminding some devious plot to trick dumb people, they could have just put Gekko and Flipper in there and called it a day. However, the hardware was optimized for everything that was in the console from WiiConnect24 to motion controls. You're vastly understating the amount of time, money and work that went into developing Wii. That would have been a lot of effort just to take advantage of people's ignorance.

Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I wonder if Retro Studios considered making a 2D Metroid game when it came time to decide their next project. And I get the feeling that there are now two teams at Retro Studios and the other was expanded when Mario Kart 7 was completed. /tin foil hat

[the asylum]

**** YOU RETRO

I can't believe I'm agreeing with this.

[Shaymin]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold over 4 million. Metroid Prime 3 sold around 1.5 million. I think this was a factor.

I believe DKCR actually outsold the entire Prime trilogy.

[broodwars]

Donkey Kong Country Returns sold over 4 million. Metroid Prime 3 sold around 1.5 million. I think this was a factor.

I believe DKCR actually outsold the entire Prime trilogy.

When 2 of the Prime games were on the GameCube, where only a few titles ever sold spectacularly well, that isn't particularly hard to do.