Topic: Delicious tourney*** tears are my drink of choice tonight

[SixthAngel]

I'm glad they took out these exploits.  It will be nice to see these people whining even more when someone becomes top smash bros player with items on and doesn't follow their stupid rules.

Expect to see way too many of a few characters online regardless of balance.    When people get it in there head the one character is better or easier to learn he will show up way too much regardless of the truth.  Don't complain when you see it, just pick your characters and enjoy.

[Mario]

The reason these exploits are bad is because they are unnecessary. Once the hardcore players learn them its back to equal terms, but with more wanking on top. It's just another layer that not only looks ridiculous, but alienates new players. Still though it's very satisfying beating cheap players with standard moves and smarter thinking in something like Strikers, they are more predictable.

[Jdub03]

I cant wait to see what happens in the first couple months of brawl.  Particularly matches between "pros" and casuals".  Smash is a lot deeper then you think.  There are certain techniques in it that aren't exploits which are still use able in brawl.  Not to mention the enormous amount of mind games pros have developed over the years.  Its been around for ten yours.  Im pretty sure pros have more then a few glitches they can use to beat others who play it a bit more casually.  Hell I know most if not all of the advanced techniques used in brawl.  I still would get smashed by them.

[Smash_Brother]

More testimonials... This is a LONG one, and I apologize for his spelling in advance

Quote
The air dodge. Obviously this is one of the big changes in Brawl.
Airdodge is no longer directional, making wavedashing (in the same sense) impossible (be patient people we have more info on things like that soon), you can airdodge and then jump, but you all knew this already.
Honestly the lack of a wavedash as of now doesn't seem to be too detrimental. It's obviously a change but the change of pase on the game in general makes this seem like it wont be as important, especially with a few of the techniques we discovered being available (details on those later obviously)

Auto Float with Peach
Still in, Peach can just hold down and will float automatically

C-Stick
The c-stick has changed, and its a welcome improvement. You can officially CHARGE smash attacks with the c-stick, which is nice, and you can also do tilts with it if you are holding the directions on the control stick in addition to the c-stick. its very useful

Chaingrabbing.
Honestly it seems like some characters can still chaingrab, mario can certainly chaingrab some characters (in addition to his numerous buffs n_n) but chaingrabbing makes me sad T-T
It's surprising though, as all of the characters seem generally floatier, as well as seem to recover from hitstun sooner, so chaingrabbing seems to be less possible by most characters

Crouch Canceling
In, and cc dsmash is more difficult due to the fact that if you are holding down it will do a dtilt, and not a dsmash.

Dash Dancing
In and beautiful, sonic's dash dance is INCREDIBLE. think captain falcon, but better lol

Sidestepping
Seems to be basically the same.

Double Jump Cancel
THIS IS OUT. (at least with yoshi) nah seems like peach can still do it though, so *shrug* still in, but not with certain characters

Edgehogging
works the same, characters retain invincibility on the ledges in the same manner as they do in melee (we found out many "advanced" edgehogs, to be discussed later)

Fast Falling
Essentially the same, although with the characters being generally "floatier" it seems to have slightly less of an impact.

Item Grabbing/Catching
You can still grab items with z when you jump in the air, and the timing for item catches is a lot easier.

Jump Cancel Upsmash
Still in, you can also dash and then duck and up smash, obviously

Jump Cancel Grab
Apparently still in, although certainly more difficult to do (at least with the characters we tried with) but that could be the fact that they possibly jump faster...?

Jump Cancel SHINE
You CAN jump cancel shine, although its more difficult and slightly laggier. You have to actually HOLD down b to be able to jump out of it, and it is a little bit slower.

L canceling
Possibly for teh demo only, but l canceling seemed to be out. However, it also seemed like everything was juts canceling automatically (hopefully juts for the demo) in teh fact that things were ending much quicker then they seemed like they should have been. oh wellz, if its out its out, but it may have just been on the demo like that

Edgehop
It exists, but because of the floatiness of the characters it seems like its going to be less useful

Ledge tech
haven't seen it yet, but only because we are still getting used to edgeguarding, i imagine it will be in though, because smash di is FAR easier and seems like it'd be easier to do because wallteching is still in

Ledgedash
obviously out silly lol

Meteor Cancel
well... we didn't really see a lot of meteors, and we didn't exactly see any cancels, so we will keep our eyes open for this one

Meteors
or spikes, still in obviously

Rolling
Still in, still basically the same, some characters seem to have better, faster rolls than other characters (metaknight for example)

Sheildhitstun
seems to be more sheild hitstun, but its not like we are going to be breaking any sheilds with it (well, i'm sure we will find a way lol)

Sheild Grab
Still in, still viable n_n

Shine characteristics
dunno if it starts on one frame, but it starts awfully quick XD in the air theres a nice little stall you can do... ok so in melee if you just drop and shine let go shine let go shine let go it takes quite a bit in between sihnes, well in this one that in itself is MUCH faster, on one fulljump you can probably fall with about ten shines in the air XD
Shine still spikes, Romeo of socal got he first shinespike of brawl (at least as far as we know XD)

Shffls
uhhh basically still in i suppose XD

DI/smash di
still in, and a LOT more effective (from what we saw) it seemed easier to do like survival DI, but harder to di out of combos, basically what that means is, we didn't know waht would combo so we couldn't di out of it LOL

Teching/wallteching/techrolling
You can still tech, you can still walltech (even on ceilings yes) and you can still tech left/right/in place also, basically the same thing, and i'll be testing the timing and seeing if you can tech within a second of eachother now (or if it will register like that) you can also still walljump tech

Tumble Recovery
Still in, you can wiggle and get out of your tumbling animation faster

Walljumping
Still in, Mario, Samus and possibly diddy (but i really cant remember lol)

Wavedashing
CONTROVERSY. Wavedashing in and of itself in the same fassion seems to be out completely. HOWEVER. we saw some waveLANDING, but it wasn't done in the same fassion, it seems to be somehow arial based, so we are still working on it. we've also figured out a way to possibly wavedash.

Footstool jump
Ink's did an awesome footstool jump edgeguard on mike the haze. it was tight. that is all LOL (unknown if it is meteor cancelable, seems like mike haze TRIED to up b to cancel it, but it didn't look like he could)

Crawl
You can crawl, i did it with bowser and we all had a good laugh. i seriously didn't bother looking for any applications of that, we had other things to do, but i'll get on that asap.

Gameplay speed
Its closer to 64 in terms of gameplay, but its not exactly like it. It's like if you smashed melee and 64 together this is sort of what you get. its a new game folks, its not melee 2.0, its brawl.

Air grabbing
doesn't seem to be in *shrug* (other than klaw yeayuhs)

Character intros
In and awesome
Mario - Pipe
Bowser - Just freaking walks out of fire its tight lol
(more in a moment)


Taunts
every character has THREE taunts from what i saw, although some say four, i wasn't too concerned, i just like bowsers taunts (actually almost all of the new ones are awesome haha)

Final Smashes
(i'll upload this in a minute)

Edge Cancelled airials
I wasn't good enough to find out LOL, we'll work on that more tomorrow, but i imagine this will be in

OoS (out of sheild)
you can up b out of sheild, you can up smash out of sheild, you can grab out of sheild, you can jump out of sheild (NOT YOU YOSHI LOLOLOL sucks to be yoshi again)

Pivot
Still in, and there is something more advanced taht we've made up as well, it can be done out of a technique we are calling the Ink Drop (because ink's discovered it) its basically a dashing pivot, i'll talk about that later

"Thunders combo"
tapping somebody who is on teh ground does NOT make them stand, sorry, but thunders combo is out haha

Yoshi double jump knockback resitance
still in, rejoice yoshis haha

General knockback restistance (heavy armor)
heavy armor, ike has a lot of it. lol. seriously. a lot. bowser's got some but i cant see a lot of application of it, theres a lot of that stuff that is hard to test lol "hit me while i'm doing every move at every poitn of the move to see if i take hitstun"

Float canceling
appears to be IN actually haha, weird eh?

Bomb Jumping with samus
appears to be in, but its a lot harder from what i saw

Fludd
we got very little fludd info, but theres no damage, just knockback, we were more concerned with the rest of mario's rape. we will test more later

Peach turnip pulls
NEAL PULLED A BEAMSWORD lolol seems to be basically the same thing




alright time for some seperate notes we just got, things are just getting started on these notes XD

Bowser has heavy armor on the start of his down b

Flame cancel is IN.

Mario can chaingrab with downthrow

Pikachu can SORT of chaingrab with downthrow

sonic is very very fast but also awkward, its not like fox/cf fast in melee, its something new and weird. he seems fairly laggy, but he's SUPER quick moving around the stage

you can airdodge grapple still (not surprising, but still sometihng to report eh? haha)

fox's lasers have been nerfed hardcore in how far they go they really do not go far AT ALL.

you can STAND ON BOXES!!!!! lol HUGEEE news! its crazy! you can also like hit them around without them breaking right away, pretty cool little feature.

Link's bombs will kill now in super sudden death mode

Link's final smash only hits one character

you CAN shorten your over b as fox

Link's down air SOMETIMES bounces, but smoetimes doesn't *shrug*

you cant do a rising tornado with mario (its his down air so taht'd be weird lol)

you can use the fludd in the air

missile cancels seemed to be out, but hugo said he saw somebody do one *shrug*

you CAN moonwalk! weird huh? XD

alllllright

time for the new advanced techniques

Hugging
(hugs was the first one to bring attention to a more or less obvious edgehog technique after a little bit of play

basically you can just walk off and grab the ledge, or you can dash off adn grab the ledge right away, or you can roll and grab the ledge, or you can dash sheild slide then grab the ledge.
you just walk off/slide/whatever off and then hold towards the stage, and you grab on right away. the applications are many, and it is very useful for edgeguarding/hogging

INK DROP.
THIS is the big one folks

you konw that clip where yohsi just randomly falls over tehn rolls?

well, thats the Ink drop. discovered by inks with applications soon to follow. alright you know how we had some ideas for a version of wavedashing, well this is oen of them.

The ink drop opens up for a DASH pivot. you can dash past somebody and instantly turn around and grab them if you ink drop into a reverse grab. its beautiful. dashing pivots is BIG.

basically to ink drop you do a poorly timed dash dance, you dash far enough where your dash dance doesn't work, then you try to turn around, you should just fall over, thats an ink drop, but basically you can ink drop cancel with grabs and attack and what not to turn around and do moves, its quite seckzy

this is all i can remember specifically for now, i'll get some character specific stuff up later


oh, peach's dsmash sucks. a lot.

evidence.
Neal = Peach
Hugo = Samus

Neal vs Hugs.

Super Sudden Death Mode.
Peach = Dsmash
Samus = SURVIVES. AND EASILY.
Samus = win.

yeah, its horrendous.

just as fast though *shrug* lol

more info coming!

One last update, i'm the best bowser in teh world in brawl, i was raping people. Best player there (no joke)

Sounds like Bowser is better and better all the time: and the fact that he can flamecancel means that the move will actually be useful instead of a move which basically allows your enemies to get a free hit on you.

I also like how he mentions that the speed is between SSB64 and Melee.

And Bowser walking in out of a wall of fire? AWESOME!  

[Dirk Temporo]

I always laugh when someone talks about "mind games" in Smash. Your rampant tourneyfaggotry isn't psyching anyone out, and if it is, then they're idiots. The same thing with the "metagame." Yeah no. Metagaming is for D&D, not a fighting game. Tourneyfags are all so pretentious, acting like they're better because they can see the so-called "metagame." God I hate them. If a game is only deep when you have to go crazy searching for glitches and accidental exploits in a game, it's not deep. You're falsely MAKING it deep, which is retarded. Even Halo tourneyfags aren't as obnoxious as the Smash ones, because they don't make up stupid names for glitches and then act like they're better than everyone else because they use them. If you want depth, go play something with REAL depth, not illusory, accidental depth.

Also, explain this "ink dropping" crap. I'm too lazy to go look.

EDIT: Okay, I have my explanation, but since I haven't seen said video, and I never knew what the hell dash dancing was, I don't get it.

Also if that guy says "its tight lol" one more time, I swear to god I'm going to gut him like a fish.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Is it just me or is pretty sad that they have so much "lingo" to describe certain things in Brawl. Look at me I can do "edgehogging" I'm so cool.

[Smash_Brother]

Apparently, if you make your character run, then turn around the moment they start running, they'll fall over? At least that's what I'm reading, and when they fall over, you can make them roll out of it or they roll automatically and the resulting roll can be cancelled by doing a grab or an attack. Honestly, I'm not sure what they hope to gain from this as it doesn't sound like wavedashing in the least, but that's what they're calling the "ink hop".

Also, from what I understand, they believe that, since air dodges are now momentum-based, it MAY be possible to do a small jump, slam down at an angle and air dodge, using the momentum to hit the ground and slide like a wavedash. However, I doubt it. The people trying to create didn't sound like they had gotten it to work.

As for mindgames, I think they exist in every competitive game, but they basically mean tricking your opponent into thinking that you're going to do one thing and then doing another. They've been around since long before SSB64.  

[Dirk Temporo]

That's not "mind games." That's feinting. Jesus Christ, they need to learn some real words instead of making them up.

Quote
Apparently, if you make your character run, then turn around the moment they start running, they'll fall over? At least that's what I'm reading, and when they fall over, you can make them roll out of it or they roll automatically and the resulting roll can be cancelled by doing a grab or an attack.

What benefit could that possibly have?  

[Pale]

So instead of getting rid of the C-stick, they made traditional smash attacks obsolete.  Interesting.  And a bummer.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
So instead of getting rid of the C-stick, they made traditional smash attacks obsolete.  Interesting.  And a bummer.

But at least you can do cliffhumping and crotchgrabbing.

[ShyGuy]

This thread makes me not want to buy Brawl.

[Smash_Brother]

I think there's more to smash attacks than people realize.

Besides, this is still a demo and everything could be completely changed before release.

[Pale]

Yeah, like I said before, Windy told me over aim that they found some interesting things out about smash attacks and then he ran away, so I'm waiting for his impressions just as much as anyone  

[Arbok]

I don't know what's more annoying... the elitist speech, with awkward words to describe every action, of the tourney players... or people tripping over themselves here to insult them by call them faggots and what not.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Quote
Originally posted by: Arbok
I don't know what's more annoying... the elitist speech, with awkward words to describe every action, of the tourney players... or people tripping over themselves here to insult them by call them faggots and what not.

That award easily goes to the tourney players. Thanks for the question.

[Spak-Spang]

Cliffhumping and Crotchgrabbing that is brilliant.

I am really disappointed C-Stick Smashes are back in the game.  I hated those, but I lived with it because I knew I could do strong Smashes without them.  Now that C-Stick smashes can be charged it just seems like it is better to go for the C-Stick than any other Smash.

What is worse is that is isn't available for all control methods...only 2 of the 4.  So that is a major bummer.

But man I don't want to play online against anyone that knows all these crazy techniques.  I will tell you right now.  I want 2 different friend code lists.  People that are crazy obsessive technique and tourny types and regular gamers.  I will only add regular gamers to friends list.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: Arbok
I don't know what's more annoying... the elitist speech, with awkward words to describe every action, of the tourney players... or people tripping over themselves here to insult them by call them faggots and what not.

One group of people thinks they are better than everyone because they use a glitch technique, and the other group just wants them to shut up...Not too hard to answer now...

[Nick DiMola]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
So instead of getting rid of the C-stick, they made traditional smash attacks obsolete.  Interesting.  And a bummer.

That is definitely disappointing. I wish they would've just kept it the same that way people using it were at some sort of disadvantage.

As far as removing wavedashing as evening the playing field, it does because now everyone only has the standard set of moves to work with. When you have an EXPLOIT, you can only expect people to learn it once they have mastered all other techniques in the game. If there weren't varying level of skills the game would be boring, but people exploiting glitches in the code (or design) just makes a game no fun. Having people wavedash on wifi would piss me off to no end. Eventually no one would play on there but experts and wifi would be regulated only to mataches with friends which is garbage.  

[vudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
But at least you can do cliffhumping and crotchgrabbing.

This is GP's best post ever.  And I mean that as a compliment, not as a round-about insult.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Quote
Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Is it just me or is pretty sad that they have so much "lingo" to describe certain things in Brawl. Look at me I can do "edgehogging" I'm so cool.

To be fair, "edgehogging" comes from an in-game source.  If you ever pay attention to the scores after a match (which are there even if you're not playing score mode, and I find it interesting to see what I got, so sue me), the game rewards you with an "Edge Hog" bonus if you mange to prevent someone from grabbing a ledge because you're already holding onto it.

As for the other terms, to the best of my knowledge I've never encountered techniques named after people before.  Wave-dashing isn't named after some doofus named W4v3M45t3r, is it?  Anyway, that's just sad.

On the subject, R.I.P. wave-dashing.  Hopefully they buried you with the guy responsible for your existence.  

[wandering]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pale
So instead of getting rid of the C-stick, they made traditional smash attacks obsolete.  Interesting.  And a bummer.

Smash Bros. is supposed to have controls that are as easy-to-learn as possible.  I think this is excellent news.

[that Baby guy]

It's just ridiculous to me.  They've made up names for everything, instead of calling them normal things or calling them what the game calls them, with only few exceptions.  I can't understand what they even mean by inking up there, and half of those "cancels" seem like nonsense to me.

[Smash_Brother]

Inking makes no sense to me, but it's supposed to be named after the tool who discovered it.

The cancels do make sense, though. When you land, you reduce the landing animation of your character by pressing the shield button at the time of landing. This ensures that you can land and react much faster. There's also a cancel where you used the midair dodge while holding down on the stick which made your character air dodge into the ground, resulting in no lag time since the game doesn't realize what you just did.

However, it seems that this has been removed almost entirely from Brawl so it's also out the window.

[vudu]

I need to discover a Brawl technique so when people play their friends online they'll have bubble taunts declaring YOU GOT VUDU'D UP THE ASS.

[Bill Aurion]

I claim the technique of doing nothing but reflecting items back at those that throw them at me...Reflecting Pokeballs results in the most anger!