Topic: Katamari Developer denounces revolution

[jasonditz]

"I'm not really interested in it. I don't think a controller should have that much influence on the enjoyment of games."  

[Bill Aurion]

I like how he's COMPLETELY wrong...The controller means A LOT when it comes to my enjoyment of a game...If I don't like the controller, then it doesn't matter how good a game is...My attention will be on how bad the controller is for me focus on the game...

Interface...is...everything...

[Ian Sane]

I saw this on 1UP.

One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup.  I think that attitude is total crap.  The guy who made Katamari Damacy proves that that attitude is flawed because he innovated with the existing setup.  He demonstrated that there is still more that can be done.  So if anyone has earned the right to denounce the Rev it's him.

I've always felt the supposed lack on innovation in today's games is a result of the attitude of those making games.  When EA is the most powerful developer in the world you're not going to see as much innovation.  The same is true when the market leading console is made by an electronics company that is more concerned with introducing proprietary movie formats then making games.  Nintendo's own recent change in attitude over the last few years, with all this "who are you?" "our franchises are everything" junk, has directly related to their lack of innovation.  They need the remote in order to make interesting Mario spinoffs.  But if they dedicated more effort into new content they wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel.  Nintendo thinks innovation is finding a new way to incorporate Mario into a game and that's why they struggled to be innovative on the Cube.

[UltimatePartyBear]

Oddly enough, it's kind of nice to see a negative opinion about the Revolution controller.  It makes all the positive comments about it seem less like marketing spin.

I feel like I should also point out that Katamari Damacy eschews the vast majority of the PS2 controller's buttons, providing a blissfully simple interface that is a joy to use.  I think he's aware of the importance of control in a game.  There may be a misunderstanding somewhere regarding this quote.

[Bill Aurion]

"One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup. I think that attitude is total crap. The guy who made Katamari Damacy proves that that attitude is flawed because he innovated with the existing setup. He demonstrated that there is still more that can be done. So if anyone has earned the right to denounce the Rev it's him."

And this is where you show you really don't understand the point of the Revmote at all...It's not JUST to come up with new gameplay design; it's to lessen the gap between you and the game that you are playing...It doesn't matter just HOW much you innovate, the barrier that exists with the current control setup will STILL exist...

I also really hate the example of a single game being a reason why the current setup should stay, though it's not really surprising to see a single thing singled out from you (Example: When all those DS games were revealed sometime last year and you had to pick on Mario Basket instead of being positive about all the software support the DS was getting)...

[Ian Sane]

"And this is where you show you really don't understand the point of the Revmote at all...It's not JUST to come up with new gameplay design; it's to lessen the gap between you and the game that you are playing"

Well I am mostly responding to all those people that whenever the hardware issue comes up they say something like "I'd rather have innovative games" as if the PS3 and Xbox 360 are incapable of innovation because they don't have a wacky new controller.

"I also really hate the example of a single game being a reason why the current setup should stay"

Fair enough.  Here's some more from the last generation:

Pikmin
Metroid Prime
Ikaruga
Devil May Cry
Grand Theft Auto 3
Warioware

If you count the Dreamcast then there's more than that.

I'll admit it's harder to think of examples of innovative games these days but I believe the reason is because of the companies on top.

Someone is probably going to crap on GTA3 despite the fact that it's the most influencial game of the GC/PS2/Xbox generation and was incredibly innovative at the time of release.  

[Knoxxville]

ESPECIALLY considering that the PSP outing of KD took a beating from the critics due to comprismed control scheme thanks to the PSP's input layout.  That if anything should tell Mr. Smarty Pants "King Of The Cosmos" to put that in his pipe and smoke it.  I can't believe the ignorance being displayed by someome who is obviously quite innovative.....he's prolly just hatin' cause HE didn't think of the Revmote.  HA!

Besides, the controller shell will still be in the house for the traditional controller crowd and lazy devs, so nothing is really lost anyway.

[Kairon]

What he said is directly against what I believe in gaming, lol. But that doesn't mean he's not entitled to his opinion, after all, there are many theories as to how to approach gaming, I'm sure, and Miyamoto's is just one of them.

But Nintendo's games have necessarily had a symbiotic relationship to their input hardware in order to create new experiences. Just as much as Nintendo and others innovate WITHIN the status quo, as Ian attests, so too do some huge Nintendo and non-Nintendo success stories emerge from breaking the status quo: Mario 64's analog stick, DDR's dance pad, Guitar Hero's... guitar...

And Nintendo, as a company: this is who they are. One can argue that innovation can happen inside the status quo, but Nintendo believes that it can happen both inside AND outside, and that the Nintendo legacy is not only one of software, but of HARDWARE as well.

Simply put, GTA 3 was an excellent game, but Nintendo, because of who they are, wants to do more than make the next GTA 3.


~Carmine M. Red
-Unable to make up his mind whether Nintendo is singular or plural  

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I saw this on 1UP.

One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup.  I think that attitude is total crap.  The guy who made Katamari Damacy proves that that attitude is flawed because he innovated with the existing setup.  He demonstrated that there is still more that can be done.  So if anyone has earned the right to denounce the Rev it's him.

He's still full of crap. He can wish all he wants, but controllers have a huge effect on the enjoyment of games. The player's only means of interacting with the game is through the controller, and if that interaction isn't "the enjoyable part", you're basically just watching a movie.

I agree that I don't think Nintendo had to do what they did with the revolution's controller. You can innovate without it. I'm interested in seeing how they innovate with it though.

[Hostile Creation]

'One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup. I think that attitude is total crap."

Nintendo never said that.  They know good and well they can innovate with current controllers.  But the remote opens up a vast new array of possibilities, and it makes the interface more immersive.  How can that be bad?
Also, I won't argue GTA3, I'll just say that it's a crappier, 3D version of GTA2.

[Caliban]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
One thing that has always bugged me about the Revolution is this attitude that Nintendo has to reinvent the wheel in order to innovate as if it's impossible to innovate with the existing setup.

So, basically what you are saying is that we should go back to wooden wheels? lol. To reinvent, does such statement make any logic? It doesn't, to invent something that has been invented before, wow*not really*, t-o-t-a-l-l-y_r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s-!

I don't think Nintendo's intention is to innovate all game genres with one new controller, it is basically giving gamers and developers a way to ease the interaction for the majority of games and then some. Now, whether some will emphasize it for innovation only is something that should be corrected towards a general understanding of ease of use.

Also, that guy that did katamary(sp?) better be careful with his words, because there might be a time when he will want to develop a game for the REV. I wonder if he is a fan of hara kiri.

[Ian Sane]

"ESPECIALLY considering that the PSP outing of KD took a beating from the critics due to comprismed control scheme thanks to the PSP's input layout. That if anything should tell Mr. Smarty Pants "King Of The Cosmos" to put that in his pipe and smoke it."

Looking at the 1UP article on this he apparently sh!ts on the Katamari sequels too so he might not have even been involved with the PSP KD.

"Just as much as Nintendo and others innovate WITHIN the status quo, as Ian attests, so too do some huge Nintendo and non-Nintendo success stories emerge from breaking the status quo: Mario 64's analog stick, DDR's dance pad, Guitar Hero's... guitar..."

True but in the past Nintendo merely improved on the status quo.  They kept what was there already.  The huge overhaul with the Rev controller has always been the main issue with it.  Adding motion control is a great idea.  The issue has always been more on stripping off so many established functions and fixing what wasn't broken.  In the past Nintendo didn't reinvent controllers, they built on them.  Plus DDR and Guitar Hero require special controls so they're not an ideal example.  No one has ever suggested using the DDR dance pad as a standard controller.

[Kairon]

They are examples not of replacing control systems, but of the potential of new more intuitive control schemes Ian. Why must control schemes so powerfully intuitive and mass market be related to add-ons? Imagine the widespread appeal of DDR and Guitar Hero, but sold as core titles to a wide audience instead of as nice little niche add-on titles.

And Ian, you're ignoring a bevy of factors when you characterize Nintendo as burning down bridges. The nun-chuck, the need for hardware differentiation, the move towards a wider casual and non-gamer audience, the taking over of functions by the freehand, the fact that the revolution controller was INITIALLY designed as a detachable section of a traditional controller (see the story of how Retro suggested the nunchuck unit)...

In fact, I'm not at all convinced that Nintendo is doing a huge overhaul at all like you claim. I look at the Rev controller and you lose an analog stick, gain gyroscopic controls (thus dealing with the dual analog set-up), and you take the GC's 1 main and 3 satellite set-up and replace that with a 1 main and D-pad setup, which, when when paired with the context sensitivity of the gyroscopic abilities, is functionaly not at all different.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that you've been completely fooled by the shape of the controller Ian. It may look like it rebels against all the old favorites, but upon closer examination it's a GC controller split in two for gyroscopic ergonomic ease and adjusted slightly to better suit that single essential change.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[odifiend]

I haven't read the interview but the developer's comment is just stupid.  Perhaps I'm reading out of context, but he is not interested because the NRev controller could influence enjoyment of games?  I agree with Bill's initial statement that the controller already has a large impact on a player's enjoyment.  The reason there isn't that much negative press for the Revolution is because you can't really fault Nintendo for expanding on that influence without looking like an asshat because they are keeping traditional options available - even with the nunchaku.  
Ian, what bugs you about the Revolution is sort of stupid as well.  The existing setup (whatever that really means) is included in the new setup.  Any 'old school' innovation can still be done on the Revolution...

[KnowsNothing]

I remember reading an interview with this guy in some trash magazine I got for free, and from what I read I don't understand why he wouldn't like the Rev.  He's not interested in current videogames because they're too complicated and annoying (which had a lot to do with the development of KD), and the Rev means simpler and innovative gaming.

[Jensen]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
 The huge overhaul with the Rev controller has always been the main issue with it.  Adding motion control is a great idea.  The issue has always been more on stripping off so many established functions and fixing what wasn't broken.  In the past Nintendo didn't reinvent controllers, they built on them.  

I don't see how this isn't building on an existing controller.  They replaced one of the analog joysticks with 6 axis motion detection.  Two of the buttons were moved to an unconvenient place.   The controller was split into two parts to make it easier to point (there is a reason that laser pointers aren't shaped like controllers).

Where is the big change?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Funny how people ($$$) didn't take notice of KD until it got a price drop.

MAYBE DK JUNGLE BEAT SHOULD BE $20 TOO!  SUCCESSSSSSSSSSSS!!

[Renny]

Link. He's been talking crap about the entire industry since Katamari got some limelight. Some of it seems true to me, some not. Regardless, I don't take any of it seriously.

[Hostile Creation]

He made a charming game, that's it.
From what I've seen (played only briefly), it's nice and quirky and fun and all of that.  But it's boring.  Maybe you could do it to chill out, but I find something like Electroplankton a much more mellowing experience.

[Wesisapie]

i just need to wonder, what neurons are misfiring in ian sanes brain? why does he sit on a forum all day every day arguing that everything nintendo does is wrong or stupid? does he have a job? does he actually enjoy games? does he have obsessive compulsive disorder? i get really sick of going into EVERY single thread and seeing his annoying jibber jabber. ever thought of reading, then thinking, then not posting? you dont NEED to slam your ridiculous opinions into everybody's faces. and you dont need to set out every reply like some kind of legal document, with the quotes then rebuttals.

nintendo is meant to be fun, and you are a wet blanket

[Renny]

I associate wet blankets with fun. But I find Katamari Damacy highly enjoyable, so maybe I's jus' crazy.

[Kairon]

I don't think that Ian Sane understands why Nintendo is Nintendo, and I think that even if he did he wouldn't be happy because of his own prior opinions on how videogames should be.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[capamerica]

I never understood why everyone all of a sudden called KD this great game. I picked up the first one the week it came out cause it looked like a cute $20 game. It was fun for the first couple days then got to be very boring and stupid. I couldn't for the life of me understand why they would make two sequels to a mediocre game and on top of that charge you full price for them.

I think the us-seen success of this game has gone right to his head and now he thinks he's mister big shot. What other games has this guy done? None that I know of, and I'm more then willing to bet that if he ever makes another game it will not be as big of a hit as KD was, He's a one trick pony and once people relies that maybe they will stop kissing his butt.

I have a feeling he was bought off by Sony, I mean he only made 3 games and all 3 were for Sony systems. Even thou people were saying how much KD would rock on the DS way before the PSP version was even hinted at. Has this guy even used a Revolution controller or is he just talking out his butt like the dumbass from epic games.

I wouldn't care if I never see another KD ever again. The series jumped the shark when they made the sequel.
Let him go build his tiku tiku tiku!  playgrounds and leave the videogame world. I don't care, not like he actually brought anything to the table.

And Ian I believe you are wrong, Yes the developers are also responsible for innervating games, But the controller is also just as important to moving people to the next level. Just look at what Nintendo has done. They redesigned the controller back on the NES, introduced the Cross pad. On the SNES they added more buttons which expanded what you could do. N64 we entered the 3D world with the analog stick, Sony didn't have this vision and with the Playstation they actually started off with pretty much a knockoff of the SNES controller. If it wasn't for Nintendo changing things up we would still be playing games with a Arcade stick and a single red button. The Revolution Remote is going to take us out of the stale setup we are currently in. Its going to make old styles of games feel like new. FPS are not going to change at all with the current controller the way it is. Infact most games will continue to play just like they didn't last gen. With the Rev controller things will change and new ways to play will be found and for the first time ever you will actually be part of the game. You can't get that with the current controller no matter how much the developers try.

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
I wouldn't care if I never see another KD ever again. The series jumped the shark when they made the sequel.

Every time that term is used nonchalantly in conversation another angel gets its wings.

[mantidor]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane"I also really hate the example of a single game being a reason why the current setup should stay"

Fair enough.  Here's some more from the last generation:

Pikmin
Metroid Prime
Ikaruga
Devil May Cry
Grand Theft Auto 3
Warioware

Ikaruga isnt that innovative, certainly not at the level of Pikmin or MP... and DMC? wtf?

You can be negative all you want, but that list that you just gave, every single of those games would be simple awesome for the remote, its not just to make innovative games, is making the games better.

The katamari guy is so stupid, he should try to make his game with the NES pad to see if he can have the same results... after all the controller doesnt matter that much for him.