Author Topic: RFN RetroActive #32: The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (Official Thread)  (Read 35026 times)

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Offline Soren

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The thing about this game is not just the padding, but the laborious nature of the padding. I -KNOW- there's 50 rupees in Link's basement that I could use to bypass money farming for the slingshot, but I am immediatley denied. I know I have to catch a fish for the cat to get it to go back to the item store, but it won't actually do so unless I talk to the shop keeper first. I know I have to get the basket using the hawk, but again... the basket doesn't spawn unless I talk to people and do cutscene stuff. Even when you have read dialogue and want to hit A to get to the next bit, you have to wait for NPCs to do their silent gestures and hand waving motions at you before you can move the conversation on...!

This a million times. There's a reason I never got out of the village on my first playthrough. And it's the same reason why now, I barely feel invested in the game even though I've managed to get farther than that initial playthrough. Sure, the game might open up and become this great, rewarding experience. But when the first 2 hours of the game are so underwhelming, you just sit there looking at your backlog and say "there's something else I can play that won't bum me out immediately." And changes are it's true.

I'll try and keep playing.
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Offline Evan_B

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I remember being pretty resilient when I first got the game, so even though it took a long time the opening moments felt really rewarding for me. The characters become very ingrained in your mind and the mission feels a lot more clear. I also think the gameplay elements serve as a nice way to transition the player from "this is the life of farm-boy Link" into "this is a boy with a justifiable reason to be venturing out into the world". Whole some people call the opening area padding, I see it as a way to ease the player into the world and the story. As for how the material gates itself- I this that's a bit unfortunate, seeing how the game might be hard to get back into with that mindset, but it doesn't really matter much to me. I play games to relax, and I have a fairly decent memory when it comes to the progression of things, so the gated events moved very smoothly upon subsequent playthroughs, it wasn't a source of aggravation. Again, this game does hold a special place in my heart for reasons I haven't yet discussed, so that's just my opinion.

As for the first and second dungeons- the thing I truly love about this game was how, even with its dark and muddy environments and textures, the dungeons are a tour de force of various elements. Rooms share themes but have vastly different geography. In the first dungeon alone you duck in and out of a windy cavern as you solve puzzles, exploring dark, dank portions while climbing on vines and staying out in bright areas. Plus, the monkey mechanic really drives this continuous sense of progression while you also are subtly guided through the experience. In the second dungeon, you have two open areas where you get to flex your skills with the dungeon item, and also wade (literally) through these vertical sequences in your iron boots. It was really fantastic for the atmosphere and Twilight Princess also used it's prerequisite items just as heavily in dungeons as the unlocked dungeon items themselves. Though neither of the two bosses are particularly difficult to defeat, they are suitably spectacular and very enjoyable. It all leads to a pretty thrilling exchange between you and King Bulbin that closes out the story arc for the first part of the game quite well.

Twilight Princess does feel very episodic in nature- there are many mini-stories unfolding in the world as you progress and all of them feel directly influenced by Link's potential and interaction. I think that Ordon and Kakariko are a nice introduction because they feature many of the most endearing characters and story elements. It is vastly different and I like that every area is introduced twice by the Twilight Mechanic- there are parts that feel inaccessible as Wolf or normal Link that are fresh and free as the other, and the idea of banishing the Twilight makes you feel like you've accomplished something as a gamer and a character. I also think that's a good place to end my current thoughts, and I'll return after the next major episode of the story- the path to the Master Sword.
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Offline noname2200

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Where is the Zelda love? I'm having a blast! Twilight Princess tries some risky things with some of its dungeons, and it doesn't always work, but it's still a good time. I just finished the very different Temple of Time, which has some very clever puzzles which are a little tedious in execution.

I think others have already voiced my pet enthusiasm killer: the opening is a big, unavoidable Like Like that instead of eating your shield sucks out the player's will to continue the game. I soldiered through on my first playthrough because I was eager to play a new Zelda on my new console, but I've never been able to get through it again after that first playthrough even knowing that some pretty good dungeons (and bad overworld) await. I haven't gotten through it for this Retroactive yet either. Not sure I will.


While I've always defended the slower intro to this game, it's becoming very difficult to justify it now. When I last played Twilight Princess, I was fourteen years old, and now at twenty-two I feel like my time is being disrespected as the game asks me to herd goats twice, direct a falcon twice, and catch fish for a cat twice. None of these actions are relevant for the entire rest of the game after this tutorial is over, although it is cute how an NPC uses the falcon against you later after you basically teach it to him.

Hey now, goat herding matters later. Ten hours later and fifty hours later, but later nonetheless!

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Offline TK Thunder

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After finishing the Arbitors Grounds yesterday, I was reminded how many of the special weapons later in the game were new to the series or at least rare.  The always enjoyed using the spinner, but if I recall, it's not used much outside of that temple (I might be wrong on that since I haven't played it in so long).  I'm looking forward to pushing through these last few temples.  Not to mention...SNOWBOARDING and YETIS.

Offline TrueNerd

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So yesterday I picked up my save file that I had randomly started two years ago. I had left off right before you had to melt Zora's Domain.

So, some impressions on continuing my second playthrough of this game.

1) The Wii controls suuuuuck. I don't recall them sucking like this my first time through the game, but I was still very much in the honeymoon phase with the Wii and its crazy controllers at that point (I got both the Wii and TP on launch day) which may have effected things. I'm also sitting much further away from my TV than the first time I played this, that might also be an issue. Anyway, the game consistently doesn't register sword swings and it is really annoying. The pointer stuff works fine though.

2) I flip flop between thinking the game looks really good or really ****. I think the Twilight World looks pretty great, if maybe a bit monotonous. The normal overworld mostly looks good but every now and again I see textures that look straight up N64-esque. For example, looking at the waterfall in Lake Hylia from across the lake is not good.

3) Collecting the light tears, at least around Lake Hylia, is tedious and unintuitive. Spent waaaaay too long stumbling around trying to find them (hint! one of them is at the castle for some stupid reason!). Almost gave up on the game during this.

4) I recall the stagecoach escort mission (among other set pieces) being one of my favorite sections of this game and playing it again, I was still impressed with the tension and action it provides but was let down by the controls and the sad realization about how very scripted it is. There's a couple "gates" the game throws up that you can't pass unless you kill a certain enemy at a certain time and he keeps coming back until you do it right. That was too bad.

5) The cutscenes, at least the ones I saw yesterday, are great. The one that plays after you get all the light tears around Lake Hylia is so bizarre and unsettling. There was another that I genuinely laughed at. The rest were at the very least well shot and the characters all "act" well even if their design isn't always great.

I admittedly just said mostly negative things here, and yet I mostly enjoyed my time with it yesterday and I wasn't even going through a dungeon or anything. I would absolutely buy a HD (or 3D, but preferably HD) remake with better controls, be them either buttons or Motion Plus.

Offline TrueNerd

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Also, it kind of blows my mind that this game is 8 1/2 years old.

Offline ClexYoshi

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After finishing the Arbitors Grounds yesterday, I was reminded how many of the special weapons later in the game were new to the series or at least rare.  The always enjoyed using the spinner, but if I recall, it's not used much outside of that temple (I might be wrong on that since I haven't played it in so long).  I'm looking forward to pushing through these last few temples.  Not to mention...SNOWBOARDING and YETIS.

Spinner is used exactly 2 places on the overworld and nowhere else, if memory serves. Dominion Rod is an equally useless waste of space, as is Clawshot no. 2. in my opinion, the worst Zelda items are the ones you only want to use in context sensitive situations or spots where it is obviously very scripted that you do so. usually these come in the form of some sort of rod (Rod of Seasons, Cane of Pacci, Dominion Rod, sand rod, etc.)

I kinda feel iron boots fall into this as well, but at least you get those so early that there's a LOT of context to use them in between the magnets, sumo wrestling gorons, traversing water, and seeing how badly link can be weighed down by his sins. I used to go out in the super snowy areas wearing the red tunic without money, carrying the ball and chain, and wearing the iron boots to see if I could completely encumber Link, but... there's only so much slowness that can be had before the encumbring effects of these items stack up.

I really do want to bring special attention to the ball and chain, though. it is one of the most inventive and amazing items they have ever put in a legend of Zelda game. it is a very effective mid-ranged weapon and short ranged crowd control tool, it renders a good bit of what one would do with bombs and a couple of other things totally obsolete, it bends video game logic and suspension of disbelief to their absolute limits, and... sadly, I can't find the accompanying tumblr GIF, but you can do a rave dance party with the ball and chain.

Offline ClexYoshi

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found iiiiit~! http://steviesomethin.tumblr.com/post/72505374804/link-no-limit (Make sure you mute the music player at the bottom of the page.

Offline Kobeskillz

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This game is going to get crapped on by the guys but besides the slow opening and the rupee messages I'm enjoying the game. The waggle controls don't bother me at all and the pointer for arrows and hookshot works great.

This game feel somewhere along the lines of Nintendo trying to satisfy OoT fans and their own creative needs and they got stuff in the middle probably not appeasing neither.


So you know the Mortal Draw? The hidden skill you receive that does massive damage if you attack while your sword is sheathed?

That can beat the mini-boss of the Ice Dungeon (the one you get the Ball and Chain from) in a single hit. I discovered that the first time I played the game, and to this day don't know anything else about that boss since I defeated it in seconds.

I still haven't decided whether I like this.

Offline pokepal148

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So you know the Mortal Draw? The hidden skill you receive that does massive damage if you attack while your sword is sheathed?

That can beat the mini-boss of the Ice Dungeon (the one you get the Ball and Chain from) in a single hit. I discovered that the first time I played the game, and to this day don't know anything else about that boss since I defeated it in seconds.

I still haven't decided whether I like this.
Wait... What??? I hated that boss!!!

Offline v1perz53

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So after a year and a half of listening to RFN, this RetroActive finally got me to stop lurking and make a forum account. I've been meaning to finally get through this game for years now, so I figured this was as good a reason as any. I first got Twilight Princess right when I was finally able to get a Wii after the launch scarcity, and I was so excited to play it since Wind Waker was my absolute favorite game at the time. But when I started it, I just couldn't get into it. Absolutely hated the motion controls (basically holds true for every game since, I have wrist issues that make it very uncomfortable to hold a Wiimote + nunchuck combo), the game was so much uglier than Wind Waker's gorgeous cell shaded graphics, and I had so much else to play at the time.


Fast forward to now, I decided to give this another shot, but say screw you to motion controls and grab the GameCube version (man was that expensive, but nice to have in my collection finally). First impressions, this game looks so much better in 480p since I got a Wii component cable vs. using a composite back in the day. Still quite ugly overall, but at least the text is sharp. Anyway, this game definitely has a rough start. That cat fishing part is such a dumb design decision, I spent like 10 minutes trying to chase the cat across the bridge and back home because it totally seems like you could do that. Going into this with an open mind though, and at least I don't have to use waggle controls this time. For all its faults, at least the Wii U game pad made Nintendo games have standard control schemes again, and for that I am forever grateful.

Offline pokepal148

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say what you will about the motion controls the aiming is actually better then Skyward Sword /fact

Offline Kobeskillz

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say what you will about the motion controls the aiming is actually better then Skyward Sword /fact


That's true. I think the reason being is that Princess uses the pointer and Skyward uses motion plus for pointer.


That's why you always have to keep pressing down on the d pad.

Offline v1perz53

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The aiming with WiiMote was the only thing I thought was better about Twilight Princess on Wii vs GameCube. It felt pretty solid and far more accurate than using the stick to aim in Wind Waker (what I was coming from) and being able to aim while moving was really useful. But to me, better camera control, true multiple item equip at once, and not having to deal with "shake, shake, shake" sword combat makes the GCN version feel better in the end. I understand the motion controls for the sword in Skyward (even if I prefer it was standard controls), but in Twilight it is just shaking the controller causes what is equivalent to a single button input, and doesn't offer any benefit besides making my wrist really hurt after a while (though all wii games do this to me).

Offline Kobeskillz

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The aiming with WiiMote was the only thing I thought was better about Twilight Princess on Wii vs GameCube. It felt pretty solid and far more accurate than using the stick to aim in Wind Waker (what I was coming from) and being able to aim while moving was really useful. But to me, better camera control, true multiple item equip at once, and not having to deal with "shake, shake, shake" sword combat makes the GCN version feel better in the end. I understand the motion controls for the sword in Skyward (even if I prefer it was standard controls), but in Twilight it is just shaking the controller causes what is equivalent to a single button input, and doesn't offer any benefit besides making my wrist really hurt after a while (though all wii games do this to me).

If the GameCube game had supports widescreen I would have gotten that one. But as it is widescreen is too important to me.

Offline Fatty The Hutt

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I found the motion control sword play immersive and fun. I am well aware that it essentially replaces a button press in this game as in many other Wii games but I liked that about the Wii in general. It was different, it was intuitive and it was fun. It has been a few years since I played the game, though.
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Offline pokepal148

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Oh link? I see where those eyes are, you sly...


Offline pokepal148

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In a hypothetical wii remote non motion setup what button would be used for the sword? Because I'm pretty sure they are all taken. There is a setting for aiming with the analog stick instead though.

Offline v1perz53

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In a hypothetical wii remote non motion setup what button would be used for the sword? Because I'm pretty sure they are all taken. There is a setting for aiming with the analog stick instead though.


Really the only button on the Wii controls I could see changing would be to switch the first person camera button (C on the nunchuck I think?) to down on the D-pad, then make B the sword and C the item button. Not sure if it is fully necessary though.


So after playing through like 2 hours of the GameCube version, I decided to grab my Wii disc to see if I felt the same as I did years ago. First impressions of the Wii version are that it is nice playing this on Wii U so that I can have it widescreen without changing my TV settings, that I still hate motion sword control and find Wiimote + nunchuck to be uncomfortable but that neither is as bad as I remember, and that pointing is pretty solid. But I could never play the Wii version ever for one reason. That damn fairy pointer noise. Within 10 seconds it was driving me crazy. Every slight movement of my right hand. I realized I was desperately trying to hold my hand still to avoid that awful chime. It is insufferable, especially in a game where you are forced to move the Wiimote frequently. How in gods name did they not add an option to at least turn the sound of the pointer off.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Here's a question for the lot of you folks!

What is it that makes people think characters like Navi, Fi, or Ezlo are annoying but makes Shortstack Waifu so endearing? I have my own answer for this, but i'd like to hear from some of you out in the thread... or if you do think that Shortstack Waifu is annoying, explain why!

Offline Mop it up

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The funny thing about the ball 'n chain item is that for some reason, this was the first time that I really started to question how Link could carry all those items. It's far from the first unrealistic item in the series as well, as even the original game had large unwieldy items like the ladder and raft. And stuff like the iron boots probably should have brought up questions as well, like how they weigh Link down only when he wears them and not when they're stored... wherever he keeps them. For some reason however, the ball 'n chain just feels way more over-the-top than anything else.

However, that also makes it one of my faves. I like how they didn't care how unrealistic it was, they put it in because it's fun. I'd like to see more of that kind of thinking in the series, and in games in general.

Even if some items weren't very useful outside of the dungeons, I'm okay with that because they are used well within the dungeons. A large part of the reason I play Zelda games is for the dungeons, and I feel this game has one of the best sets in the series. The spinner dungeon seemed so neat the first time through, and the item actually can be used anywhere even if it doesn't do much. They probably could have come up with some other use for the dominion rod though; I think it'd be cool if it could also be used to control an enemy.

Offline Evan_B

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Here's a question for the lot of you folks!

What is it that makes people think characters like Navi, Fi, or Ezlo are annoying but makes Shortstack Waifu so endearing? I have my own answer for this, but i'd like to hear from some of you out in the thread... or if you do think that Shortstack Waifu is annoying, explain why!
Ezlo is the best companion out of all those you listed so I don't really understand your question. I used to like Midna very much but my fondness for her has diminished somewhat in recen years and probably also because of Hyrule Warriors, where she is absolute garbage.

But to be honest, the best companions, in my opinion, also serve an important role in the story in addition to being useful. Midna and Ezlo's abilities (wolf combat, teleportation, follow-me technique in Midna's case, Minish spell and parachute for Ezll) are both key exploration and puzzle-solving devices in addition to the characters' story function. Both characters are very different from how we usually perceive Link and discovering their personalities and flaws is interesting. With Navi and Fi there are no flaws- they exist only as guides and serve little purpose outside of that. Sure, Fi being a part of the Master Sword is interesting, but her abilities (like dowsing... Ugh) and character don't grow at all throughout the story.
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Offline ClexYoshi

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this thread kinda went dead...!

At any rate, I kinda dragged myself through that first tear of light collection and dungeon, then switched over to play a file I had around the middle of the game that I quit the last time I played the game, and then I fooled around with my completed file a bit to kinda get the full range of the game and kinda just fool around, and i am going to stand by a lot of what I've said in this thread. the dungeon stuff is really good, but I really think this game has a biiiiiiiiig problem with items in the inventory not being all that useful outside of their classic contexts. Epona feels unwieldly and unintuitive compared to travel via the wolf, and a lot of Twilight Princess comes down to it being the inflated version of the Legend of Zelda experience.

Whatever it is that you value that post 16-bit Legend of Zelda games do is proportionate to what you will get out of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. I maintain that 3D Zelda is better left as a one and done myself. while there's exploration and such to get goodies, I really don't feel like they're fun to speedrun or that there's a lot of wiggle room to try the game in a new and interesting way besides maybe a 3 heart challenge? I dunno. maybe it's also indicative on why I'm really not all that excited for the new Legend of Zelda game coming up. I like the franchise, but i'm not over the moon for these games like others are.