Topic: The Downfall of Ubisoft on Wii U

[Soren]

Nintendo fans (as a community) bitch when they get versions exactly the same as the other versions ("why aren't you taking advantage of our system's unique features?! We're Special!"), and they bitch when they get versions that are too different from the other versions ("Ugh! This isn't the version that everyone ELSE got! BOYCOTT!"). The only things consistent in the whole situation are that Nintendo fans bitch, and that Nintendo fans don't buy the games in the end.

Everything you just said there can be applied to consumers of the other consoles out in the market.

[broodwars]

Nintendo fans (as a community) bitch when they get versions exactly the same as the other versions ("why aren't you taking advantage of our system's unique features?! We're Special!"), and they bitch when they get versions that are too different from the other versions ("Ugh! This isn't the version that everyone ELSE got! BOYCOTT!"). The only things consistent in the whole situation are that Nintendo fans bitch, and that Nintendo fans don't buy the games in the end.

Everything you just said there can be applied to consumers of the other consoles out in the market.

The sales of the Xbone and PS4 (and their associated software titles) say otherwise. Sony & Microsoft fans buy 3rd party games. That's why the 3rd parties are there. Nintendo is no longer a major player in the console market, and the Nintendo fanbase is a niche audience with very particular tastes. That's why the 3rd parties are not there.

[UncleBob]

I, frankly, don't give two craps what Western Developer X or Japanese Developer Y thinks.

Frankly, it is their job to convince *me* to give them money for their product.  If they can't do a good job of it, then that means they have failed.  Period.

As big of a Nintendo Fanboy as I am, I'm willing to give money hand over fist to a third party developer who is willing to create a fun product - and it doesn't even have to make special use of Nintendo hardware.

Let me introduce you to Skylanders.  You might have heard of it.  It's developed by a third party - Activision.  While it doesn't really do much in the way of Wii/Wii U special features, the franchise sells boat-loads on Nintendo systems.

It's like it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you're saying.  I've not really heard fans complain about a lack of Nintendo-forced features, nor have consumers failed to buy the game on Nintendo systems (in fact, the Wii version of the latest game came with a download code for the Wii U version because so many folks were still buying it for the Wii and Activision really wants folks to trade up so they can stop making the Wii SKU).

Weird how that works.  You make a game that Nintendo fans enjoy and they buy it.

You make your new franchise into an on-rails shooter or you give us a year old port (while releasing a fancy new collected edition elsewhere for the same price) and 'meh.

It's like Madden.  You could say it's Nintendo Fans' fault that it isn't being released on the Wii U, since not enough folks are buying it.  Or you could say it's the Sony/Microsoft fans' fault for buying the same freakin' game year after year with roster updates.  Maybe if EA put some freakin' effort into making an evolution of their game, more folks would buy it.  Maybe Nintendo fans are just smarter than that.

Oh, New Super Mario Bros. Wii U sold how much?  Never mind.

Sony & Microsoft fans buy 3rd party games.

Of course they do.  That's because there are no real first party games to speak of on those systems.

[broodwars]

Congratulations: You found "a" 3rd party game that sold well on Nintendo consoles, and one that played to Nintendo's core fanbase of 5 year old toy collectors (*eyes Amiibo*). There are plenty more that didn't. There was nothing wrong with the Wii U versions of Assassin's Creed 3 or CoD: Black Ops 2 at the Wii U launch, and Ubisoft & Activision have come out and said those didn't sell well, nor did CoD: Ghosts or AC4: Black Flag a year later.

And incidentally, it's 2014 and a completely different console. I think people can stop bitching about Dead Space Extraction at this point.

[sisibakbak]

Congratulations: You found "a" 3rd party game that sold well on Nintendo consoles, and one that played to Nintendo's core fanbase of 5 year old toy collectors (*eyes Amiibo*). There are plenty more that didn't. There was nothing wrong with the Wii U versions of Assassin's Creed 3 or CoD: Black Ops 2 at the Wii U launch, and Ubisoft & Activision have come out and said those didn't sell well, nor did CoD: Ghosts or AC4: Black Flag a year later.


And incidentally, it's 2014 and a completely different console. I think people can stop bitching about Dead Space Extraction at this point.

I agree there was nothing wrong with AC3 or Black Ops 2 but the reasons they didn't sell are pretty obvious. Firstly there was a new Mario game at launch so if anyone was going to buy just one game, it was always going to be that. Add on that that these versions, though technically sound (and offering some great functionality in regards to Black Ops 2) did nothing to convince the people who are passionate about these games (namely people who already own consoles that could play the games already) to migrate over. There also wasn't any sizeable marketing push for either of these versions, though Ubisoft can be excused from that since they did give ZombiU a fair chance in my opinion. It's a shame but the odds were against them on those titles.


In the case of Ghosts, the complete lack of DLC and support for Black Ops 2 soured a lot of people on it (it being slightly ho-hum also didn't help, I'm sure). And again, they had no marketing push for that version in any way whatsoever. No screens, no video, no information until launch. My local GAME store received 2 copies and they weren't even on the shelves- they were hidden behind the counter where you had to ask for it. It wasn't revealed when the other versions were confirmed and was announced a good while later on Nintendo's Twitter account with a simple "CoD Ghosts is coming to Wii U!" It didn't even get the pre-order DLC that the other versions got until early this year. Neither Activision nor Nintendo tried in the slightest. AC4 suffered the same issues as CoD but I think Nintendo fans had already been thrown into a tizzy by that point over Rayman Legends and just didn't want to buy anything with the Ubisoft name on it.

[UncleBob]

There was nothing wrong with the Wii U versions of Assassin's Creed 3 or CoD: Black Ops 2 at the Wii U launch, and Ubisoft & Activision have come out and said those didn't sell well, nor did CoD: Ghosts or AC4: Black Flag a year later.

You mean, aside from missing features/support that the other systems had?

"Hey everyone!  Go buy a brand new system so you can play a worse version of the game you can buy on the system you already own."

Not to mention, again, the simple concept of not understanding Nintendo owners.  You make petty jabs at "5 year old toy collectors" - Skylanders went from a brand that used the Spyro name so that it would have *some* kind of known branding to one of the largest franchises in the market.  That's not 5-year-olds.

[UncleBob]

Oh, and...

And incidentally, it's 2014 and a completely different console. I think people can stop bitching about Dead Space Extraction at this point.

I mention DSE because I think it's a prime example of...

[T]hey bitch when they get versions that are too different from the other versions ("Ugh! This isn't the version that everyone ELSE got! BOYCOTT!").

But you're right.  That was five years ago.  Let's look at a more recent original effort release from EA for a Nintendo system.

Oh, wait...

[Stogi]

We can all agree that Nintendo has a problem, but the problem isn't their fans. That's ridiculous. That's like saying RHCP fans suck because they don't buy Maroon 5 albums. Get a grip.

The problem is Nintendo's consoles. That's it. If you look at the 3DS, DS, and GB, you'll see that they do phenomenally well with third parties. So what's the difference?


The main difference between Nintendo's handheld and console markets is a consistent stretch of utter domination. That's it. And third parties are going to continue to shun them if they can't reclaim and hold more market share. All these other excuses of "Nintendo not doing anything for third parties" or "Third parties hate Nintendo" are simply that, excuses. The real problem is Nintendo's inability to hold firmly to a segment of the market, console after console.

[Cyrian]

  The only way this turns around is if Nintendo actually works with 3rd parties going forward, involving them in the planning and development of the console and the marketing of the games. But what would require Nintendo actually caring how any other company performs on their consoles, especially outside Japan.

So basically Nintendo should be going to third parties proclaiming how much they're just like the other guys, which they've said multiple times through multiple people that they have no interest in being, and which seems to be working out pretty well for  them, despite the semi-annual OMG NINTENDO IS THE NEXT SEGA!!!!11!!oneeleven freakouts.

[UncleBob]

The problem is Nintendo's consoles. That's it. If you look at the 3DS, DS, and GB, you'll see that they do phenomenally well with third parties. So what's the difference?

To be fair, the 3DS doesn't have much buy-in from western developers either.

[Ian Sane]

I'm currently playing through the Mass Effect Trilogy on the PS3 and, man, the ME3 release on the Wii U really is a borderline useless product.  Playing just the third game with no way to import in your save would just take so much from the experience.  I don't know if EA would intentionally sabotage a product but at the very least that was clearly nothing more than a token effort.  Whoever green lit it probably knows nothing about the game aside from its sales figures ("that's a popular recent game of ours.  Let's port that.")

Part of me thinks that because Nintendo has had such lousy third party support for so long that their customer base has shifted more into gamers that are not that interested in third party games.  It makes sense - you don't have it so you adapt to go without it.  Or those that care about third party support stopped buying Nintendo consoles long ago.  The consumer is "at fault" in that their buying habits are largely first party but that isn't anything they're truly responsible for.  Nintendo shouldn't be in a situation where their customer base's buying trends go in such a direction.  And we all know about the "second console" situation where one buys one of the other consoles as their main console and the Nintendo console as a secondary purchase to get the Nintendo games.  Third party games won't sell to that sort of Wii U owner.

I lay the blame on Nintendo.  No sane person would buy a Wii U for third party ports of PS360 games if they already owned a console that would play them.  The target audience for such third party titles was entirely Wii only owners upgrading to the Wii U.  Had Nintendo gone with a next gen sort of jump one could assume the third party titles, even if they were multiplatform releases, would have some extra next gen pizzazz to sell them to PS360 owners (like how the PS4 is selling despite many of its titles being prettier versions of PS3 titles).  Instead the Wii U really just came across like Nintendo finally catching up to the other guys right before the other guys replaced their current consoles.

The Wii U sold like **** because it wasn't at all the product that the videogame buying public wanted in 2012.  The target audience for EA's and Ubisoft's titles didn't buy the Wii U so the games didn't sell.  If Nintendo had released a console that wasn't a flop then the third party sales would have been better and the whole mess would probably have been avoided.  Of course the third parties quickly bailing has made the Wii U sales even worse but ultimately it is on Nintendo to release a console that fits third parties' development needs and is the sort of product the public wants to buy.

I figured the big problem that would bite Nintendo in the ass is that by making a PS360 equivalent, the third party multiplatform releases would dry up quick as development moved to the new consoles.  The funny thing is that the PS3 and X360 are still routinely included in multiplatform development so on a technical level the Wii U could be as well.  Instead the Wii U just sold so shitty that third parties want nothing to do with it, even though it remains technologically feasible to include it.

[UncleBob]

If Nintendo had released a console that wasn't a flop then the third party sales would have been better and the whole mess would probably have been avoided.

A console that wasn't a sales flop?  Something like, I dunno... the Wii?  You know, that system that was virtually perpetually sold out for two years straight?

[sisibakbak]

I'm currently playing through the Mass Effect Trilogy on the PS3 and, man, the ME3 release on the Wii U really is a borderline useless product.  Playing just the third game with no way to import in your save would just take so much from the experience.  I don't know if EA would intentionally sabotage a product but at the very least that was clearly nothing more than a token effort.  Whoever green lit it probably knows nothing about the game aside from its sales figures ("that's a popular recent game of ours.  Let's port that.")

For what it's worth, I was over the moon that they brought Mass Effect 3 over. I played the second game on PS3 and the third on Wii U and despite missing out on obvious things I still had a great time with it so they made at least one person happy! I agree though, it was a bizarre move for them to put it on Wii U without the other 2.


I agree that the decision to not make a wildly more powerful console was a mistake but it's really just a bullet point on the long list of bad choices they made and not the main cause.

[Adrock]

I agree that the decision to not make a wildly more powerful console was a mistake but it's really just a bullet point on the long list of bad choices they made and not the main cause.

Basically. If Nintendo went with more powerful hardware, it would be stuck with a pricier product that no one wanted to buy and no third party wanted to make games for. That's it. Wii U was littered with issues and throwing more hardware power at it wasn't going to fix those things. Right now, Nintendo is just making the best of a really crummy situation.

Moving forward, I really don't think there's anything Nintendo can do to get consistent third party support even beyond Wii U.

[ShyGuy]

Moving forward, I really don't think there's anything Nintendo can do to get consistent third party support even beyond Wii U.

Massive moneyhatting accompanied by parity contracts. It worked for Microsoft. Or did it?

[broodwars]

So basically Nintendo should be going to third parties proclaiming how much they're just like the other guys, which they've said multiple times through multiple people that they have no interest in being, and which seems to be working out pretty well for  them, despite the semi-annual OMG NINTENDO IS THE NEXT SEGA!!!!11!!oneeleven freakouts.

Nintendo's spent the last 3 generations telling 3rd parties they're a special little snowflake who needs to be constantly told how special they are, and if people don't like that they can go piss off. The end result has been an erosion on marketshare; a complete abandonment by both 3rd parties and consumers; and an overall state of irrelevance for Nintendo in the console market. Nintendo's traditional dismissal of anyone else's concerns other than their own has not worked, is not working, and will not work in the future now that Nintendo's market share has been eroded to a punchline only topped by the Vita's.

Meanwhile, Sony's PlayStation division has soared with the PS4 by Sony being the absolute opposite of Nintendo: they built the PS4 with 3rd parties having an active role in the console's development and they heavily promote 3rd party games. For Nintendo to rebuild relations and establish themselves as a relevant player in the market, they have to change as well because the rest of the gaming world isn't going to orient itself around them any longer to cater to their absurd whims.

[UncleBob]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Wii U pretty much on par with the sales of the XBox One at this point?

And if I'm correct, didn't the original XBox and the GCN come pretty dang close?

And, of course, the Wii far outsold the 360...

How is Nintendo any more irrelevant than Microsoft?

[NWR_Neal]

Xbox One and Wii U hardware sales are close, but take a look at how the third party games sell. I don't have Xbox One specifics, but I'm sure its killing the failure of the early third party Wii U games.

[broodwars]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Wii U pretty much on par with the sales of the XBox One at this point?

I didn't realize it was an achievement to be selling (with a year's sales head start) roughly the same number of Wii Us as the worst-selling and worst-marketed next-generation console.

[UncleBob]

Xbox One and Wii U hardware sales are close, but take a look at how the third party games sell. I don't have Xbox One specifics, but I'm sure its killing the failure of the early third party Wii U games.

I'd guess that has something to do with the lack of any real "first party" Microsoft titles.

With that said, I believe the Wii U has a 4 Million Plus title, something the XBox one hasn't done yet (and the PS4, being such a superior seller and all, only has two).  Sure, it' a first party title - but it proves the potential is there.

Just like with last generation, something like five of the top selling games OF ALL TIME (like, forever and ever) were Wii EXCLUSIVE titles.

It shows that the customer base is there and is buying games.  What makes third parties so unable to sell games on Nintendo consoles?

I didn't realize it was an achievement to be selling (with a year's sales head start) roughly the same number of Wii Us as the worst-selling and worst-marketed next-generation console.

So... being roughly comparable with half the competition is a horrible thing?

[broodwars]

So... being roughly comparable with half the competition is a horrible thing?

It is when you had a year's head start, and the best you can do is maybe selling as well as the year-younger next competitor up, who has been plagued with terrible marketing; poor pricing; and a horrendous PR strategy.  It's pathetic.

And the Wii U having a couple better-than-mediocre-selling titles that have sold well doesn't "show that the customer base is where and is buying games." It shows that a group of people bought a few games. Like everything else about the Wii U, it hasn't been consistent, even across Nintendo 1st party titles.  There has to be a proven history on the console to justify supporting it, hence why the Wii got so much 3rd party support despite the filthy casuals only ever buying a handful of titles. There was enough consistency across the library as a whole that it made economic sense to support it.

[broodwars]

Just taking a moment to register my continual annoyance at the lack of an edit button in Talkback. 

And the Wii U having a couple better-than-mediocre-selling titles doesn't "show that the customer base is where and is buying games." It shows that a group of people bought a few games. Like everything else about the Wii U, it hasn't been consistent, even across Nintendo 1st party titles.  There has to be a proven history on the console to justify supporting it, hence why the Wii got so much 3rd party support despite the filthy casuals only ever buying a handful of titles. There was enough consistency across the library as a whole that it made economic sense to support it.

[broodwars]

In retrospect, I suppose it's fitting that the Wii U would be matching the Xbone in worldwide sales. Both are overpriced, underpowered boxes that (for their first year) had their price largely inflated due to packed-in, tacked-on hardware that no one wanted. Both are also vanity projects spear-headed by the egos of their largely-incompetent management.

Continuing the trend, maybe if Iwata is finally sacked like Mattrick was ousted from Microsoft, the Wii U can recover. Maybe. 

[broodwars]

Also, of course, both the Wii U & the Xbone had "TV" as a huge part of their original design, and in both's cases it's been a feature that's largely been ignored since. And both had incredibly poor PR and marketing strategies that led to consoles that were never in danger of selling-out in the early going.

[Khushrenada]

There's PS4, Wii U, XBone, 3DS, PSP.

I can only buy one system. What system should I buy Broodwars and why?