Topic: BLAH BLAH BLAH: GameCube 64

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Whatever Nintendo does, they must do so without sacrificing the calibur of their product.

~~~~~

Ian's fingerprints all over this thread, but he's nowhere to be seen. MYSTERY.

[Caillan]

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Uh... no, they aren't. Their games appeal to EVERYONE, and some games like Metroid Prime, only appeal to people over a certain age.

Kids like Metroid Prime becase it's cool. They want to be cool. Nobody hates Sesame Street more than a self-conscious eleven-year-old.

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Am I a young kid for enjoying Wario Ware?

Wario Ware is like the old Mario games. It's just crazy, which EVERYONE seems to love. Mario has become just bright and colourful, when it used to be... I think Ian Sane called it surreal. Surreal is a good word to describe it. Generic happy, bright and colourful visual themes won't appeal to EVERYONE: nobody over 20 watches the cartoons made for kids, and nobody expects them to. As games have become less abstract they have become narrower in their visual themes, and a narower visual theme will appeal to less people. Games that appeal to EVERYONE are Golden Sun and Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, not Mario Sunshine and Yoshi's Story.

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...but they'll never do that because they're greedy bastards.

If they screw us for first party games early with the Revolution like they have with the DS, this won't encourage third parties to come along an 'fill the gap', because there's not going to be a gap to fill. I think Nintendo should keep on doing what it's doing, and let the expansion of it's developing network continue. Though I do think they should fund origignal projects like Geist rather than loaning out their franchises like they did with Starfox. Lots of third-party games sell well on the Cube, like Sonic Adventure Battle 2, SCII, Viewtiful Joe 1& 2 and the Monkey Ball games. Third parties just ignore it anyway.

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I think you're a bit confused in the direction they are going in, simple controls and simple inferface does not mean simple gameplay

Simple gameplay can arise from complicated control, and complicated control can provide complicated gameplay. You're not forced to use the Cube controller's two anolouge sticks, d-pad, and seven buttons if you make a game for it. Why make it so simple? Zoonami's FunkyDilla is going to use one button, and nothing else. You don't need a NES controller to do that. I'm sure Jungle Beat's great fun, but you can't play a Zelda game with bongos. Playing the old Zelda games with only one or two custom item-slots is annoying enough. The bongos are cool but I don't what them to become a trend.  

[BigJim]

Note: I didn't know the "K" word was taboo, so I mistyped it intentionally so my point is understood. I'm not a bad speller, usually.

I start to cringe every time the "kidday" debate comes up. I think there is something a bit more subtle in Nintendo's methods that most people don't quite catch. Nintendo largely doesn't make kidday games, they make what I call "safe" games.

"Safe" games are games that target everybody. They're not necessarily kidday. They're just plain safe. The GameCube is two-punch platform:

1. Star power.
2. Safeness.

If you look at the GameCube's top sellers, you can see that virtually all of them are either "safe" or have star power. Referring to it as a "kidday" platform is sort of a poor man's dismissal of a more complex issue.

The problem is that when the platform developed a reputation for having these two qualities, conscious to the buyers or not, it knocked out the likely success of STYLIZED games, and indeed, some genres altogether.

The answer doesn't lie in holding back first party games. It lies more in COVERING THE GENRES BETTER, and not using your mainstay characters every chance you get. Create kick ass sports games. Not "Luigi's Football". Create kick ass role-playing games. Not "Paper Mario". A number of the "stylized" games that did get released depend on Nintendo's star power to carry them.

Making "everybody" games is not the same as making games for everybody. One could argue that PlayStation is more of an "everybody" system in that way.

Nintendo can't do it all, but the least they can do next time around is provide an open platform that doesn't get pigeon-holed so easily.

Nintendo targetting "everybody" for Revolution does give me pause. That's the DNA for more of the same. That is a legitimate concern. If they mean just more non-denominational "safe" games, then we should expect Nintendo to likely hold their current position indefinitely. We may like their games personally, but their standing won't change.

BUT, if they mean "everybody" because they will secure killer sports games, RPGs, psycho-thrillers, platformers, etc. then I am there.  I am hopeful, but not optimistic.    

[joshnickerson]

Nice article. A bit borderline on "IGN Whinefest", but nonetheless...

I'm going to have to agree with TheYoungPlumber and Bill; I honestly don't care about releasing 20-25 titles a month, when I'm probably only going to actually play through and finish one of those. Hell, I still have a few Cube games I haven't even taken out the the shinkwrap yet! One big title a month would probably be enough for me.

However, I can also see the need for more releases. I understand that some people won't necessarily care about "Game X" like other people might. But also, I have to think about the past few Christmas seasons, when literally tons of new games flooded the market, but only a few really rose to the top, while some good games were lost, probably forever. Wouldn't it have been better to spread them out over a period of time, rather than use them all in one shot?

I'd better stop, because I'm rambling now. *L*

[Pale]

First off I want to say that Justin Nation's cameo was a breath of fresh air for an old time PGC fan.  

He also had a lot of the best points IMO but that probably comes off as just kissing too much ass.

Ya know what I think this entire argument boils down to?  A grass is always greener debate.  Granted most everyone involved owns multiple systems but I still think it applies.  Take for a minute the PSP vs. DS debate.  First off, if the PSP came out first with its gorgeously large screen and THEN we got the DS, chances are the PSP screen would be stale, but a touch screen?  Come on now, thats friggen sweet.  The way it is now (which I admittedly am somewhat victim to) is that the touch screen has been out for a while, there have been a few really fun games on it, but now people are intrigued by the capabilities of the PSP.  This same argument can be made with the whole X-Box Live vs. Nintendo first party titles thing.  Many of us, as Nintendo gamers, are craving online support, yet I know several an X-Box fan who used to be Live fanatics that barely log onto it anymore.

Thinking this way maybe Nintendo does have the right idea in that they are taking risks to try and come up with the next big thing.  The problem is that their approace to it is VERY risky.  If we do have another Virtual Boy esque innovation that doesn't get a foot hold (don't get me wrong, I personally loved the virtual boy) it coudl be disaster.  The possibility of this is multiplied due to the threat to their cash cow (as the staffers pointed out).

Bottom line is, I and many others (like Bill, Mario, etc.) are happy with the current load of games.  In my case, with a computer, PS2, GCN, DS, and GBA I am completely swamped with games and the PS2 actually has very little to do with it.  I do worry that Nintendo is going to have issues but luckily the PSP came out of the gate slow....  These issues are playing a major part in a life decision I'm making right now that involves following my dream vs. staying where I am in what seems to be stability.


All that being said, I think its important that we stop all of this until after E3.  It is a huge E3 that should see both a new system and an online plan coming from Nintendo.  If they aren't spot on, then everyone can start bitching.

[WesDawg]

Seems awful whiny to me. Nobody was complaining about the fact nothing great was coming out on the PS2 back in January or February or March when a whole slew of really cool stuff was coming out on the Cube, but come April and one GOOD game is released for the PS2 and suddenly people are complaining that Nintendo doesn't have something to counter with. Articles like this make me mad.

[Lokno]

I think this is the first time I've understood the arguement that Nintendo are themselves responsible for their poor third party support. The way people talk about it, you'd think they beat them like red-headed step children. The bottomline is that they have poor third-party support because they themselves make excellect games for everyone, setting a high standard and often a childish theme. At least, that's the arguement as I understand it now. Frankly, I think being the first system out, having low development costs and online play are more important, all stuff the Gamecube also lacked. The Revolution, however, should have all these things going for it, as well as being backwards-compatible to the Gamecube.  Therefore, not only will the Gamecube be the first Nintendo console that will not die outright in the next-gen, but the revolution plans to fix the major issues with developers. So, "Don't let april fool you." -George Harrison  

[InfinitysEnd]

All I can say is that I'm probably going to be buying a PS3.  I've had enough of this and I refuse to give MS my money, so it's going to Sony.  I'll probably buy a Revolution too, but it's not going to make up for the fact that the PS3 will STILL end up having more (and probably better) games than the new N system.  Nintendo's head's in the clouds.  They've never cared about a mainstream audience.  EVER.

[joshnickerson]

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Originally posted by: InfinitysEnd
They've never cared about a mainstream audience.  EVER.

Is that actually a BAD thing?  

[trip1eX]

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Originally posted by: Mario

I think you're a bit confused in the direction they are going in, simple controls and simple inferface does not mean simple gameplay (Donkey Kong: Jungle Beat proves this). This way, they are appealing to EVERYONE, which is their goal. There's no way they're going to abandon their core fanbase that's keeping them alive. Also, we haven't even seen Nintendo's next console yet, anything you hear is pure speculation, and it's not very wise to make up your mind about it before it even exists, just wait for E3 next month when they show it, i'm sure you'll be pleased.

Come on now.   They aren't going to abandon their core fanbase. I didn't say that.  They just are going more in the non-gamer and casual gamer direction than in the direction of the gamer who enjoys Nintendo games cause they do have the gameplay but would like more of that gameplay in some titles that don't involve Kirby or Peach or Pokemon.  I like Nintendo but I don't want them to get more cute and even simpler.    

I didn't say I made up my mind about the REvolution either.  (tho it seems you have ignored your own wise advice and made up your mind without seeing it.    )  But it sure put a damper on it for me when Iwata said he wants a controller that looks inviting to Mom's.  Nintendo's direction is there in black and white.  LIke it or not.  In de nile or not.

Personally I wish they'd go a bit in the opposite direction.  To me their games are already good for kids and non-gamers.  

Oh well to survive Nintendo probably has to focus on a niche in the market especially if they don't have 3rd party support.  And with the gameboy being their bread & butter and being aimed at kids I'm sure the Revolution will be too.  And kids have parents and Nintendo sees only half of those parents spoken to by videogame developers.  The other half are the Moms.  And that's where Nintendo is going.


 

[Jonnyboy117]

Responding to a few different questions and comments...

Yes, I played the import version of Jungle Beat and loved it to death.  I think my review score was 8.5.  I loved Metroid Prime 2 as well, but it didn't last me long because I had to beat it in three days in order to get the review done on time.

Yes, I am counting PGC as one of my jobs because it consumes 20-40 hours a week depending on what's going on.  Yesterday I worked on PGC stuff from about 2PM until about midnight, with a couple of short breaks.  At this point, it's a detriment to my studies and research at school (which I get paid for), but it's pre-E3 time so I can try to justify it and just learn to cope with the load.

I don't want Nintendo to be more like Sony and Microsoft, I want Nintendo to be more like Nintendo was fifteen years ago.  I want to play Nintendo's awesome first-party titles AND the cream of the third-party crop all on the same platform.  I think getting back to that point will require Nintendo to act more like Sony and Microsoft are acting now, yes, but there may be other ways.  The other ways Nintendo has been trying have so far failed.  If you think Nintendo is content with their current position in the market, you're deluding yourself.  Nintendo execs say everything's gravy because that's their job, but if you asked Iwata whether he wants to take back market share from Sony, he'll say "of course".  If you ask Reggie whether he's okay with third-place, he'll say "Hell no, let's go take some names and drop some swear words on their pansy asses."

The next person to call me a "former fan" is getting banned.  I take that as a serious personal insult.  If I didn't like Nintendo anymore, I'd quit this job and go buy an Xbox.  I wear Nintendo t-shirts every day, worship my Shigeru Miyamoto business card, and have a Luigi's Mansion action figure on my bookshelf.  But I'm not an irrational fan.  I'm not a zealot.  I don't love Nintendo no matter what.  They have to earn my love, and they do, but they could earn a lot more of it.

I am a consumer.  I consume games, sometimes in mere hours.  I need more games on a regular basis.  I'm willing to wait for the ones I really want, but I need others to keep me occupied in the meantime.  And in that regard, it has been hard being a GameCube owner, especially after I was so exasperated with the N64 generation and was expecting major change during this generation.

[WhoDey]

I wondered 3 years ago, and still wonder today, why doesn't Nintendo give out demo discs? Third party games sell bad on the GC? Put a few demo's on a demo disc to promote whatever 3rd parties games are coming out and give hardcore Nintendo gamers a chance to experience a game they otherwise wouldn't have even thought about. I'm not talking about putting them on shelves for $10, I'm talking about free. Pack them in with Nintendo Power, get them in EB, heck for every first party Nintendo game released their should be a demo or two included in the game that spotlights a 3rd party game. Help them out a little. It seems so obvious and yet Nintendo completely ignores it. Why would any 3rd party have a problem with this? They wouldn't.

Nintendo supposedly has 7 billion dollars in the bank, well, eat a little of it and give Nintendo fans some demos. Remember the demo that had Splinter Cell, Billy Hatcher, Soul Calibur, Sonic DX, and Viewtiful Joe? Well, I now own 3 of those games. It's too bad I had to pay $10 to try them out though.

This idea will not get Nintendo to the level of Sony in terms of 3rd party games but it can't hurt I think it would be a nice gesture toward 3rd parties.

[Ian Sane]

It's bad enough when Nintendo makes excuses.  I'm really tired of that.  It's even worse that so many of their fans use the same lame excuses in defending them.  "They make games for everyone."  "Online isn't profitable."  "Quality over quantity."  These are corporate excuses.  They aren't valid for us gamers so don't use them.  Do you have stock in Nintendo?  Don't have blind faith in Nintendo.  They have faults and they make mistakes that you shouldn't tolerate or make excuses for.

Since Jonny asked I liked the roundtable approach.  It's just easier to read.  The discussion was a little negative but it was sincere.  When 1UP talks negatively about Nintendo it comes across like they hate Nintendo and are trying to smear them.  This however was clearly written by people who love Nintendo but have been pushed to the limit.  It's like dealing with a friend who clearly has a problem but refuses to admit to it and try to solve it.  One only has so much patience and eventually you're going to reach a point where you're fed up with the friend who you can't help.

Realistically I don't expect Nintendo to do anything about only having one release in April because they can’t do anything about it.  The current release schedule is the result of what they did (or didn’t do) three years ago.  They didn’t sell enough Cubes or attract enough third party support when it counted and now they’re stuck in the same crappy situation they had with the N64.  They literally learned NOTHING from the N64 and now all they can do is ride things out and improve with the Rev.  Of course that assumes they learned something from this.

A lot of people are saying that they don’t want Nintendo to become Sony or MS.  I couldn’t agree more.  I don’t own a PS2 for a reason.  So let’s instead compare apples to apples: Cube & N64 vs NES & SNES.  The NES and SNES were clearly made by Nintendo and had the same quantity and quality of first party classics (in fact you could argue they were even better then).  Yet those classic machines also had amazing third party support, several great releases to choose from each month, and tons of variety in genres and styles.  I bought a SNES in 1994 and I still buy games for it.  I bought an N64 in 2000 and literally owned every game for it I was interested in by the time the Cube launched and I currently own pretty much every Cube game released that I want to own.  The SNES is what made me a Nintendo fan.  Why can’t Nintendo’s new consoles be at least half as good as the SNES was?  I’m not asking for Nintendo to be Sony, I’m asking for them to be Nintendo.

One thing the NES and SNES had that the Cube doesn’t is choice.  People say “Jungle Beat just came out.”  Well I don’t own Jungle Beat nor do I plan to.  I played Donkey Konga with Nintendo reps and on store demos and I found it fun but not worth the investment.  So since I don’t own the bongos I didn’t buy Jungle Beat.  I didn’t buy Star Fox Assault either because it sounded pretty average.  That’s the problem with the way Nintendo releases games right now.  Sure if you buy every high profile game released you’ll be satisfied but if you don’t want the “hit of the month” you’re out in the cold.  With the SNES it wasn’t like that.  If I didn’t want one of the month’s top releases I got another one or I bought one of the 30 or so other games I missed out on.  Despite Nintendo’s plans not everyone is interested in games for everyone.  There needs to be variety and choice.  Options are what make something for everybody.  Everyone likes pizza but everyone doesn’t like pizza for every meal.

So how does Nintendo get variety and attract third parties?  Well for starters there needs to be an incentive to support Nintendo.  Having higher licencing fees obviously won’t work and realistically having merely the same won’t either.  They have to offer a sweeter plum, instead of just an equally sweet one (or a less sweet one).  The development kits have to be at least as good as the competition or better.  They have to have options like online support and a flexible controller.  If you don’t even allow third parties to make whatever they want why would they support you?  That’s why connectivity flopped.  Sure it was something the competition didn’t have but it was at the expense of other things so it wasn’t an advantage it was merely an alternative.  Nintendo is offering smaller rooms with no cable for higher rent than Sony and MS.  It’s no wonder the third party support is so low.  There literally is NO REASON to make third party games for Nintendo.  It has nothing to do with first party titles stealing the thunder because that wasn’t a factor on the NES, SNES or GBA.  Nintendo even kind of tried to do the less first party thing and the result was the DS launch which was largely crappy third party junk, Feel the Magic, and one Nintendo port/remake.  They just have to make it worthwhile to support Nintendo.

[ShyGuy]

 So uh, what games did you guys want to come out in April on the Gamecube?

[Pale]

Ian I think the problem with comparing Nintendo's hay day to now is that IMO they could do the same stuff and fall even faster.  The facts are this.  Dev's like the disc format.  This really got the PlayStation rolling and now the installed base is working against Nintendo.  Dev's also like money.  This is making MS's philosophy work extremely well.  I don't really see how Nintendo could really be like Sony this gen as Sony is doing nothing more than feeding off of their previous success.  We don't want Nintendo to be asshat businesspeople like MS so that philosophy is out.  For me what Nintendo claims they are doing with the Rev is the best choice given the circumstances.  The problem with that, like I said before, is that the chance of failure is high.

What most of us want as Nintendo fans is for the industry to be a utopia.  I think thats why Bill and others get so upset by conversations like this.  We think people should like Nintendo because their opinions on the industry (at least their public ones) paint a nicer place.  We don't want money to drive our art of choice yet MS's success points to a future similar to the current music industry.  Instead of art we get product.

So is Nintendo really doing something wrong as far as their overall philosophy goes?  I don't think so.  This is why the SCIII issue pisses me off so much.  Trading IP is such a good concept for gaining exclusives.  It would force companies to rely on in-industry status rather than funds they may have received elsewhere.

To sum up cause I can't type more...  I think our complaints should be centered on the industry.

[NWR_Lindy]

Ian, I agree with you 100%.

The "one release a month is enough for me" attitude is something I don't agree with.  Like Ian is getting at, how is choice a bad thing?  With the Super NES you'd have games like Yoshi's Island and Final Fantasy III coming out in the same month.  Those were the days.

Nintendo isn't going after casual gamers, no matter what they say.  Sony and Microsoft OWN casual and non-gamers because they give them what they want: sports games and edgy titles (giving customers what they want, what a novel idea).  I agree with BigJim in the sense that they go the "safe" route, and not everybody wants the safe route, so how can they say they make games for everybody?  With Revolution they're going to attract the same people they attracted with the DS: Nintendo fans that appreciate their quirky designs and experimentation.  That's fine, but it can only take them so far.   Nintendo seems to miss the fact that they can give the "ignorant masses" what they want while also innovating, doing their creative stuff, and appealing to their core fanbase...like they did with the NES and SNES.

Nintendo is making themselves a niche brand by having this "go it alone" strategy, one that doesn't even make sense from a business standpoint, let alone a philosophical one.  For example, why wouldn't Nintendo go online if fans of sports games see online play as a differentiator?  It's no secret that GameCube ports of popular games (sports and otherwise) are seen as inferior because they lack online play for no real reason.  The GCN has a broadband adapter, but it's never been used by Nintendo themselves!  Explain that.  And people wonder why third-party games don't sell as well on GameCube...it's because PS2 and XBox versions are inherently superior because they have more features.  If you told me that these two cars both go 100mph, but this one includes an awesome stereo built-in for the same price, which one do you think I'd buy?

It baffles me that Nintendo refuses to match the abilities of their competition's products, even when the fact that they're losing sales because of it is staring them right in the face.  And before everybody chimes in saying, "Well, *I* don't care about online, online is useless, Sony and Microsoft suck,  NITNEDO FOR EVAR!!!1111!!", believe me, anybody that plays John Madden (or even Halo) cares about stuff like online play.  And that's a LOT of people.  I don't mean to make this whole argument about online either (that subject has been beaten to death); this happened with the PS2 and PSP as well.  PS2 had DVD playback which was a huge differentiator at its release, PSP has the built-in ability to play movies and MP3s...these are both abilities that people love, and will pay for.  But if you ask Nintendo, people don't need that right?  Maybe so, but isn't it nice to have the option of doing that stuff?  For all of their innovations, Nintendo can't seem to think "outside the box" in terms of what their customers might want from a game system.

Contrary to what many of you may think, I love my GameCube.  I have more games for it than any other system.  My dissatisfaction comes from the fact that I am forced to buy other systems to play games that skew towards a certain audience, or to have the "best" version of a port.  That's retarded. For crying out loud Nintendo, build online into your next system (which they've done, thank God) and start developing mature* titles on a consistent basis.  Nintendo would demolish all competition if they could round out their product portfolio with some software that has a little edge.  How about a kick-ass new franchise with adult themes and situations?  Something edgy and cool?  Or has that been scrapped in favor of another Mario Tennis game or Mario Party 10?  <shudder>

I've thought about the "grass is greener" argument, and for me it boils down to the fact that I've been disappointed with the DS since shortly after its release.  The utter coolness of the PSP (which I honestly didn't think I'd be that impressed with) has made that disappointment a lot deeper.  Still, I'm not going to sell my DS.  But I REALLY wish it featured some games that I cared about.


silks

*note that by "mature" I do not mean "Grand Theft Auto" or even graphically violent.  I mean characters and plot development above and beyond Mario rescuing Princess Peach.  Something akin to a dramatic movie.  See Metal Gear Solid 3, Eternal Darkness, etc.

[GaimeGuy]

The only nintendo rep who seems to actually GET it, and is also willing to admit the mistakes that Nintendo has made, is Reggie.   I hope Iwata, Miyamoto, and the other higher ups get the picture too, but are remaining quiet about it.

I believe what Nintendo needs to do is not slow downtheir own production, but to get more big thirdy party exclusives.  They had the right idea with RE4, but by the time it came out, cube was already dying.

They need a big name Square Enix RPG to be exclusive for them in the first year or two of their console.

They need to diversify their development studios, have them handle completely different projects.   Traditional franchises are good, but Nintendo relies far too much on them.   They need an image makeover, and they need to open up their wallet and buy some deals.

But I think what they are trying to do is, they are afraid of not being able to compete monetarily with Sony and MS (and I suppose with good reason, too.)  So they, instead, are trying to separate themselves from Sony and MS and hope it works.

[Hostile Creation]

So Johnnyboy, the problem isn't, in fact, that not enough games are coming out.  It's that you import games a month ahead of time and beat them in two days?

I don't have money to buy a Gamecube game this month, Touch & Go being the only one I can afford at the moment, but I'm sure it would have been smart for Nintendo to release more games.  End of discussion, angst-fest over.

[Rize]

Well, this sure sparked some debate.  We should do this more often.

"While Ubisoft in another story is promoting in-game advertisement like it's a good thing?"

What's the big deal?  For game's with realistic environments making deals with advertisers (as long as they don't take the Mac and Me approach) will increase realism and/or help finance the game.

If they do take the "Mac and Me" approach, the game will be marginalized by reviewers and gamers as a peice of trash.  This isn't a problem.  It will take care of itself.  If you want to discuss this further we should probably make another thread.

[Jonnyboy117]

If I didn't import games (and I honestly don't do it that much, maybe five or six a year tops) in addition to picking up domestic releases, I'd be even more depressed about the GameCube release schedule.  Importing means you can fill up an empty month like April with a cool game like Naruto 3.  I would import less if I had more domestic releases filling up my time...but I don't, do I?  Multiply this argument times TEN for the DS.  Good lord, the Japanese lineup is so much better than what we have in the U.S.  Meteos should be here any day now!

[Hostile Creation]

I don't disagree with what Ubisoft is doing.  I liked the technique in Pikmin 2.  But I can clearly see games advertising things in loading screens and making ads painfully obvious in the future, and that's not something I ever want to see.  This is a step toward that level, you realize.
Fortunately, Nintendo will probably keep us living without loading screens forever, so I'm thankful for that.

[ShyGuy]

Five or Six imports a year isn't a lot? Wow, I seem to be coming from a totally different place as a gamer than you guys. I guess I'm a casual gamer nowadays...

[GaimeGuy]

Hostile, look at the games that have come out this year on GC:

RE4 and DK: Jungle Beat have been the only two titles that haven't sucked this year, so far.  There are NO third party titles to speak of whatsoever. Any titles the cube does get are half-assed versions that pale in comparison to those on the Xbox and Ps2.   (case in point just this year:  Splinter Cell & Timesplitters 3)

look at what MS has gotten on the Xbox this year:

Doom 3, Phantom Dust,  Splinter Cell, LEGO Star Wars.   All solid titles.    Not to mention games like Conker and Jade Empire coming out in a bit.   And the Xenon is coming out this winter, by most accounts!  

The Ps2?  They've already gotten God of War, DMC3, GT4, Dynasty Warriors 5, and Tekken 5 this year, as well as lego Star Wars and a version of Splinter CEll which is inferior to the Xbox and PC versions, but definitely superior to the GC version. The Ps2 has Katamari Damacy 2, Tales of Legendia,  Grandia 3, FFXII, and rumor has it another DQ remake coming out within the next year.

Now let's look at the Cube.   In addition to missing several quality third party offerings which are available on the Xbox, Ps2, and PC, such as Lego Star Wars, and getting the worst version of the games that DO come out on cube, including the lack of online multiplayer in every sports game and FPS released on the cube, the Cube's release lineup is VERY thin, and there aren't too many bright spots.

I'm sure that Fire Emblem and Zelda will turn out great, but they aren't coming out over here for another six months.  Geist and Killer 7 may or may not suck.   Who knows what to expect from Advance Wars?  There is a new Harvest Moon game coming out in July, and that's the only definitive buy I see for myself until the end of the summer for the cube.

No one knows what to make of Odama.  It might be polished, it might not be, but it's probably not going to last you more than a few hours (unless they pull a rabbit out of their hats).

Kirby and the new Pokemon RPG?  We don't know ANYTHING about those, and they probably won't make it out until the end of the year, at the earliest.  And to be honest, I don't look forward to Pokemon Colosseum's 2nd RPG quest, if it plays anything like the first one.

The Cube has a few games out of the, oh, about 50-60 games to be released this year that will be worth buying.  But  the other two consoles have larger lineups, better versions of the multiplatform games, and exclusives as good as the cube does.

I have about 40games for my Cube.  I love each and every one of them.  But Nintendo still dropped the ball this gen, and I can only hope that they know what they're doing with Revolution, as it seems that Microsoft is getting some serious support from Japanese developers, and no one is mentioning Nintendo in the next gen race.

[Ian Sane]

"RE4 and DK: Jungle Beat have been the only two titles that haven't sucked this year, so far. There are NO third party titles to speak of whatsoever."

RE4 is third party.  Your point is still valid though.

[Hostile Creation]

You didn't have to write an essay on it.  I clearly said I didn't keep up with Xbox and PS2, so I wasn't sure.  I didn't hear of any games worth getting.
Doom 3 and GT4 I thought came out last year, that's how bad it is

It's really sad that the industry is pretty much composed of sequels and remakes nowadays.  Franchises I can put up with, the games being extremely varied and coming out over longer spans of time (12ish Zelda games in almost twenty years is fine), but fours and fives?  Most of them released last generation?  Doom 3 is the only valid sequel on that list.

An example of the difference between franchises: Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong Country are both part of a franchise of games.  DKC 2 and 3 are as well, but they're both sequels and I could have done without.  Three especially.