Topic: Shovel Knight: Plague of Shadows. (free DLC)

[Spak-Spang]

Why is it that people complain about the usage of bottomless pits in Sonic games but it's perfectly fine to implement them ad nauseam in this game?

Because it's "Nintendo Hard"? Seriously, try to convince me here.

Because Sonic is about speed and Sonic had bottomless pits and hidden spikes that couldn't be avoided if you moved fast and didn't know where they were...it forced you to get hurt and then memorize the level. 

This game NEVER does that.  There are no hidden traps that are unavoidable.  The game isn't "Nintendo Hard"  I actually found the game very refreshing.  Because you have endless lives and check points the difficult is not too hard.  Though New Game Plus is pretty dumb.

I found the plague Knight game mode easier and more enjoyable than Shovel Knights.  Shovel Knight felt like a nice mix between Mega Man, Duck tales, and just alittle Castlevania. Plague Knight feels more original but perhaps has even more of a Mega Man feel, because of the item switching. 

[Evan_B]

That's a pit with a bottom though.

Momentum is predictable once you become accustomed to Sonic's physics, so I fail to see your point. They end up pretty predictable based on level design anyway. Whereas Shovel Knight's pits are just there to deliberately screw you over because of their frequency.

Not to mention this game's obsession with one-hit-kill spikes. That's equally irksome.

[Spak-Spang]

That's a pit with a bottom though.

Momentum is predictable once you become accustomed to Sonic's physics, so I fail to see your point. They end up pretty predictable based on level design anyway. Whereas Shovel Knight's pits are just there to deliberately screw you over because of their frequency.

Not to mention this game's obsession with one-hit-kill spikes. That's equally irksome.

Platforming in and of itself is based on pit deaths.  Because the skill of a platformer is involved around skillfully navigating a level and defeating their enemies, spikes and pits are there to add challenge...they ARE the level. 

However, when they become unfair is when you can not avoid them without prior knowledge of them existing.  Take the original Sonic games, there are plenty hidden spikes that are designed to kill your momentum unless you know where they are prior to getting to them.  Now in Sonic because the spikes are not one hit kill people forgive them, but it is still very poor level design. 

Shovel Knight has some sins based on the old design flaws of 8bit games, re-spawning enemies and such...but they put those aspects into the game for nostalgia.  However, they did design a very forgiving check point system and endless lives and level saves to balance this out. 

I truly fail to see the comparison.  If you say spikes and bottomless pits are bad you must hate every platformer...because it is in all of them.

[Evan_B]

I'm not saying I hate them, I find it sill that people complain about a design element in one platformer while praising its inclusion in another, more adventure-based game. I have never found a spike or pit in a Sonic game particularly unpredictable, they scale well with the difficulty of the game. Even if platformers MUST include such elements in order to be a part of the genre, many actually don't use them because they're considered cheap. Again, Sonic was a specific example, and one that I don't even think features all that many bottomless pits.

But the predictable nature of their placement in Shovel Knight (as in, you know there's going to be one since they're EVERYWHERE in the game) and their inclusion in Plague of Shadows highlights the trappings of the game's initial design. And it does not have limitless saves and checkpoints, since the loot system limits replays. What is more annoying about the loot system is that recovering your loot is actually sometimes an impossible thing, which is again facilitated by the design of the levels.

You know, Mutant Mudds is one of my favorite platformers. Period. And it also features these elements, including instant-kill spikes. But the thing Mutant Mudds does is it freezes the character upon taking damage, which instantly creates a mental picture in the player's mind to remember situations such as those, or to be more cautious in those circumstances, or even try a different approach. Shovel Knight uses a recoil system which sends the character on a predictable arc but one that can react very differently given the design of a level- and more than often ensures death. I understand people enjoy beating their heads against a wall, especially in action/adventure games such as these, but I guess I will never understand or appreciate the reason why. It's aggravating to me, and it doesn't make me want to keep replaying the same instance over and over when I know there's about ten different ways I can be screwed over by one design element in a stage just because it has an abundance of pits close to it.

[Soren]

I do feel like the combat is more of the source of frustration than the actual platforming itself. Combat just doesn't feel as rewarding as it did when playing as Shovel Knight. And while you can find a combination of double and burst jumps as the game moves along (I never feel like I'm short of money to buy upgrades, and I die a lot), and those jumps can actually save you from death once you master them, there's no way to account for being force by an enemy to pull back, only to have that same enemy respawn. It's really frustrating.

That being said, boss battles don't feel as daunting as they did with Shovel Knight. Propeller Knight and the second Black Knight battle are the first time I found myself dying mid-battle, which makes for interesting strategy when handling tonics.