Topic: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword

[Ian Sane]

Isn't selecting Hard a self-handicap? You chose to make it harder. I see no difference.

In one situation the developer does the work by offering me the option.  In the other I, the player, have to make a conscious effort to play their game in some goofy ass way they probably never intended in the first place.  I consider it the responsibility of the developer to come up with a good difficultly or to provide difficulty options.  I can just look at Gamefaqs to figure out any obtuse puzzle and I can always rewire a custom controller if I don't like the button assignment in a game.  But those are all excuses for poor design.  No workarounds.  It is the developer's responsibility to get it right, not our responsibility to work around their design.
 

Which is one of the reason why Link changes his weapons in real-time and even drinks his healing potions in real-time as well now.

Oh man, is this going to be like that shitty ass system that Star Fox Adventures used?  In that game you had to cycle through a menu in the corner of the screen in real time to switch items.  So you have to go through the menu while staying alive at the same time.  It wasn't challenging, it was frustrating.  Being able to pause to switch items is a convenience, not some dumbed-down handicap to make the game easy for beginners.  It's just good design.  You can say that in real life you can't pause but in real life I also don't have to fumble through a menu to do a command (like in an RPG) or grab the item that I would normally have in an easy-to-reach location like in my pocket or on my belt.  Menus are an unrealistic feature in videogames but there isn't really a better way to do it.  Thus games should accomodate that by allowing one to pause to use a menu.
 
Real difficulty is like good AI that requires skill and strategy to beat.  Real time menu fumbling is bullshit difficulty because the "challenge" comes entirely from inconveniencing the player.

[Stogi]

I think it'll be like Red Dead Redemption, which is ridiculously easy to change weapons on the fly.

[NWR_insanolord]

I think they showed it in the E3 presentation. It's kind of like switching visors in Metroid Prime 3, right?

[Stogi]

Yeah

[Mop it up]

In one situation the developer does the work by offering me the option.  In the other I, the player, have to make a conscious effort to play their game in some goofy ass way they probably never intended in the first place.

The fact that heart containers are optional as opposed to being forced pickups shows that the developers intended them to be used as a sort of difficulty selection. This isn't like a low-level run through an RPG where you have to avoid fighting enemies, all you have to do is decide whether or not you want to pick up or pass up extra health, the thought process of which is no different than selecting Hard or Normal on a menu. Easy.

I think they showed it in the E3 presentation. It's kind of like switching visors in Metroid Prime 3, right?

Wasn't it already like that in the Nintendo 64 and GameCube Zelda games? You assigned items to various buttons and could select them on the fly. How is the new Zelda different?

[Luigi Dude]

Wasn't it already like that in the Nintendo 64 and GameCube Zelda games? You assigned items to various buttons and could select them on the fly. How is the new Zelda different?

In the previous games you had to pause the game to select the items you wanted.  In Skyward Sword you select the items from menu's in real time.  This video shows what I'm talking about when Link selects a potion and then drinks it in real-time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH1CtxnjITQ&feature=related

[NWR_insanolord]

You could map things to the C buttons (or X, Y, and Z), but you had to pause what those were. In Skyward Sword, you can quickly switch between anything in your inventory.

[ThomasO]

Using the MotionPlus pointer for item selection seems to be really intuitive. Using it long enough creates muscle memory, so the "reaching into your pocket to grab an item" simile seems really appropriate and quite useful for real-time fighting. You're not immediately distracted by navigating a menu.


The only problem may lie in coherently explaining this control to newcomers in such a way that it fits seamlessly into the story, doesn't involve Wii Sports Resort-length tutorials, and doesn't eventually require a trip to the manual.

[Ian Sane]

Pointing at stuff is intuitive if the controller is already in that position.  In Other M for example you hold the controller is a completely different position and then have to switch to a different position.  That is more awkward than anything else.  This should be fine though since you would hold it with one hand with the nunchuk in the other.

But if you point at items on the screen to select items then that more or less disables the pointer from being used in more useful situations like shooting arrows.  Could it do both?  Well I don't want to be moving around and shooting at some enemy only to accidentally hit the "switch item" icon in the heat of the fight.  Switching with the d-pad or something like that would work better.  Good controls should be able to handle themselves in the heat of the moment.  The possibility of accidentally triggering something unintended should be taken into account and the controls should be designed to make this less likely to occur.  If pointing at stuff can do two things at the same time there will be problems.

I thought the N64 method of just assigning the various items to C buttons was totally intuitive and flexible.  I tended to have a couple of items I always had assigned like the bow or boomerang and I always used the same button for them so I thought of it less as the item button but more like the bow button.  Mu only beef was the iron boots which required you to go into the menu to turn them on or off which was a real pain in the water temple where you had to switch between the two constantly.  That was a big oversight but otherwise the method of assigning a button to an item was great.  I don't really see much reason to change that up.  I doubt any reasonable or intelligent person had any problems with that setup.  "Fixing" stuff like that should be a low priority for Nintendo.

[Armak88]

If it works like the visors in Prime 3 then you won't have to worry about accidentally switching with the pointer. When you're holding down a specific button, the screen is divided into quadrants that represent each item you want to select and wherever your pointer is when you let go of the button, that item is selected. I think that would work quite fluidly. The "item screen" would be transparent and superimposed over the game which wouldn't pause in the meantime. That way you actually have to take time to switch items, but it wouldn't be too difficult or clumsy.

[Stogi]

Are you purposely confusing yourself, Ian?

I just hope for one thing and one thing only. Make puzzles, enemies, bosses require more than one item. I've always disliked how simple the dungeons become when you finally gain access to the item hidden in them. I especially dislike how easy the boss is because of that.

It's a good formula though. I just want them to build on it. If I get the slingshot and I know the boss will require it, then how is the thinking part challenging? Let me have to break its defenses with a bomb, then hypotize with my sword, then pull away its shield with my slingshot.

[Ian Sane]

I just hope for one thing and one thing only. Make puzzles, enemies, bosses require more than one item. I've always disliked how simple the dungeons become when you finally gain access to the item hidden in them. I especially dislike how easy the boss is because of that.

It wasn't always like that.  Maybe I was just a dumb kid at the time but I don't recall it being like that in A Link to the Past.  Sometimes the dungeon item was the key to beating the boss but not always.  It was never as cut and dry as the 3D games.  In Majora's Mask the item for each dungeon was an arrow and the bosses were never just "shoot him with the arrow you just got".  The formula is not cut in stone, Nintendo just frequently chooses for it to be that way.
 
One thing I used to do in A Link to the Past was sequence break.  There is a point in the game where the only thing that prohibits you from going further is the next dungeon item.  It is only the item that is needed.  It isn't like some storyline stuff happened after you beat the dungeon boss (though in some cases it did).  I sucked at defeating the bosses so to explore the world further I would get the item and then leave the dungeon and explore further.  It was pretty fun.  It also let me built up additional heart pieces so I could come back to a boss that gave me problems and have more energy to spare (plus some new items).
 
I know devs don't like sequence breaking like that (is it a testing nightmare or does it interfere with their "amazing" story) but that kind of flexibility was really cool.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"I sucked at defeating the bosses so to explore the world further I would get the item and then leave the dungeon and explore further.  It was pretty fun.  It also let me built up additional heart pieces so I could come back to a boss that gave me problems and have more energy to spare (plus some new items)."

If people actually did that in the Metroid Prime games (which doesn't really define dungeons), there'd be much less whining about "fetch quests." Grab those mysterious thingies that don't have much explanation yet, simply because you CAN, because they are puzzles asking to be solved! But NO, people forgot how to have fun.

[Ian Sane]

If people actually did that in the Metroid Prime games (which doesn't really define dungeons), there'd be much less whining about "fetch quests." Grab those mysterious thingies that don't have much explanation yet, simply because you CAN, because they are puzzles asking to be solved! But NO, people forgot how to have fun.

Apples and oranges.  The items I found in Zelda had a real obvious function to them.  This is like the bow and hammer and stuff like that.  They weren't just random doodads with no given purpose.
 
And I would argue that collecting random doodads is poor design.  I know you usually collect some sort of thingy from each dungeon after beating the boss but those are like a way to give some storyline purpose to beating the level.  Collecting a medalion just makes the game more immersive than having an icon on the menu saying "Level Complete".  Even in games like Super Mario 64 you don't collect stars, you complete missions or objectives and the doodad is just your little trophy to keep track of doing so.

[Stogi]

Yeah but isn't exploring and finding nifty doodads the entire point? Yes its nice to find something that furthers your progression, but aren't those doodads the reason to find those real items in the first place? In Prime, those doodads further your progression at the most important part, the end.

I always liked finding something that makes no sense. It's a mystery and a reason to continue to explore.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

If people actually did that in the Metroid Prime games (which doesn't really define dungeons), there'd be much less whining about "fetch quests." Grab those mysterious thingies that don't have much explanation yet, simply because you CAN, because they are puzzles asking to be solved! But NO, people forgot how to have fun.

Apples and oranges.  The items I found in Zelda had a real obvious function to them.  This is like the bow and hammer and stuff like that.  They weren't just random doodads with no given purpose.
 
And I would argue that collecting random doodads is poor design.  I know you usually collect some sort of thingy from each dungeon after beating the boss but those are like a way to give some storyline purpose to beating the level.  Collecting a medalion just makes the game more immersive than having an icon on the menu saying "Level Complete".  Even in games like Super Mario 64 you don't collect stars, you complete missions or objectives and the doodad is just your little trophy to keep track of doing so.

I don't effing believe this, but maybe it's par for you to lose track of what you previously wrote.  On top of that, you conveniently ignore aspects of these games you appear to have experience with.

"I sucked at defeating the bosses so to explore the world further I would get the item and then leave the dungeon and explore further.  It was pretty fun.  It also let me built up additional heart pieces so I could come back to a boss that gave me problems and have more energy to spare (plus some new items)."

You found helpful little things like Heart Pieces.  Acknowledged.

"Apples and oranges.  The items I found in Zelda had a real obvious function to them.  This is like the bow and hammer and stuff like that."

BOW?  HAMMER?  How are hell are these critical *unavoidable* tools being compared to Chozo Relics and Fuel Cells?  You were talking about small **** like HEART PIECES.  MISSILES, EXTRA POWER BOMBS, E-TANKS, MOAR GODDAMN MISSILES -- these are comparable useful things you come across thru the mere act of "non-dungeon" exploration.

"And I would argue that collecting random doodads is poor design.  I know you usually collect some sort of thingy from each dungeon after beating the boss but those are like a way to give some storyline purpose to beating the level.  Collecting a medalion just makes the game more immersive than having an icon on the menu saying "Level Complete".  Even in games like Super Mario 64 you don't collect stars, you complete missions or objectives and the doodad is just your little trophy to keep track of doing so."

And I would argue you lost track of whatever you were thinking about.  Medallions?  Immersion?  How are they any more useful than Prime's keys, items that have attachments to their respective games' histories and backstories that you always lovingly scan for, and are even utilized as keys during whatever gate opening ceremony during the story?  In addition, Prime's keys are more relevant to the effort the player puts in - you get the keys by DOING THINGS - they're evenly guarded by puzzles and challenges just like any other power-up in the Prime games.  They're also a reinforcement of the non-linearity of the Prime games, regardless of what whiners say about backtracking.  If you were truly EXPLORING, the rewards aren't always predictable, and that mystery adds real fun.  Primes' keys can be found before the halfway mark of the game, long before you even get an explanation.  Medallions/whatever are pretty much expected after some *early* story sequence tells you how many there are.  Gee, what a surprise, I am so filled with purpose now, even after getting the 8th one.

I would argue the lack of "keys" in recent [GameCube] Zeldas is what allowed so much linear hand-holding BS to get into the dungeon designs.  If there's a reason to explore different areas and directions of a place (finding scattered keys), then we wouldn't be stuck with dungeons that show you where the exit is all the time.

If you were to talk about random doodads, it should be about Zelda's useless rupee chests and maps that lead to MAPS.  These things waste time and are a waste of good puzzles and hopelessly outnumber all the keys in the Prime Trilogy.  Tell me what the obvious function of 500 rupees I can't carry is.  You went exploring for this junk, did you not?

Please tell me more DEKU NUTS give you some purpose.  How do you continue to pretend being a Nintendo gamer?

*And sweet goodness, Chef Unagi really understands it.

[Ian Sane]

Pro I think there is a miscommunication here.  I was talking about the essential dungeon items and how I could grab those and leave and continue exploring the game world.  The way you worded it I thought you were comparing THOSE items to the useless junk in Metroid Prime, thus I considered it applies and oranges.

I don't like looking for useless junk in any game and Zelda has been guilty of that.  Not so much in the older games.  It's the newer ones that have the problem.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Maybe there was a miscommunication. My original statement regarded the idea of sequence breaking you brought up: exploration upon acquisition of a key item.

Applied to the Prime series, you have the opportunity to make "future" progress by thoroughly looking for surprises.  You end up solving the "end" of the game before you're presented with the objective. You knock down most of the bowling pins by exploration, leaving easy spares remaining.  You've shortened or streamlined the final stretch of the adventure.

They're not useless (tho they don't have utility) because the exploration "got you somewhere" even tho you stepped off the main course to DISTRACT yourself.

[EasyCure]

I hope the owl plays a role, haven't seen him for awhile and I STILL don't know if he's good or evil

I always wondered about it's back story, from before OoT, actually.

Isn't selecting Hard a self-handicap? You chose to make it harder. I see no difference.

Ian's words

Seriously, man, after a certain point your arguments get soo mind numbing its hard not to consider them BS. I do my best not to give you **** for it with some backhanded remarks, but after catching up on this thread since about page 44, I just had to make SOME remake. Still, I'm keeping civil here and simply nitpicking/ranting about your post rather than taking the jerk route..

edit: so.. I read the master sword theory that was linked a few pages back, pretty interesting stuff. The only thing I wanted to point out was, and please not that it has been almost 5 years holy ****! since I played Twilight Princess, so some of the details pointed out I actually don't recall too well..

(I'll spoiler tag this just in case)

So according to the theory presented..Wind Waker makes a point to differentiate humans and hylians..? I don't recall this AT ALL so I'm not going to touch that. It mentions something that I do somewhat recall; Hylians have pointed ears that let them (or at least used to) hear the gods/goddess. I don't remember this being brought up in WW but I do remember at least one NPC in OoT that does. On top of that, it was actually mentioned in the Alttp manual, but we know that NA manuals (at the time) can't be considered canon). Anyway, I don't ever recall any game mentioning humans as a race separate from hylians; considering races like the Kokiri, Zora's and Gorans I always just assumed Hylians were an enchanted version of humans for the purpose of this fictional world and honest to god don't recall a game mentioning a human.

With that said, the whole bit about Shad's book in TP mentioning the Oocas as a race closest to the gods and being the creators of Hyrule.. because I don't know the game script, and it's not quoted in the article, it's really hard to grasp the context so I'd like to present an alteration to the theory. All the speculation about Skyward Sword's story, and some of the known facts like it being confirmed as an origin story for the master sword, have people saying that the Oocas in TP are some sort of de-evolved form of an ancient race that created the Hyrule we know and love(and not the Hylian race, which according to the Zelda Wiki was a mistranslation in the English version of the game.) What if Shad was wrong in his translation though? What if being "closest" to the gods/goddesses was misinterpreted? Instead of believing there was an ancient, advanced, race that created Hyrule and technology that somehow lost contact w/Hylians and devolved into these birdlike creatures of moderate intelligence, what if the Hylians themselves were that race? The book Shad found could've mistaken the Oocca as the ancient race because they're whats left up there in the sky city, but perhaps the original Hylians were the advance race and were perhaps cast out by the gods/goddesses from the sky world (skyloft) to the earth realm. Or what if they're not the "closest" race to the gods/goddesses in a sense that they're descendants of the gods/goddesses but just literally, the CLOSEST race to them and thus why they were able to hear their voices [I don't recall a single instance in any Zelda game where a character actually receives a message from or speaks to the gods/goddesses].

Taking that into consideration; I feel like it's a more valid theory that the Oocca aren't a devolved ancient race that used to be superior. They're probably a form of evolved cucco raised by the original Hylians if anything. Looking at that scope of the sky city, or it's technology (the dominion rod) ever being created/wielded by the Oocca or what sort of extreme devolution could of occurred to turn them into the chicken-like creatures we get to see. We know Skyword Sword is the master swords origin story, we know Links adventure will be starting in this newly shown sky-world, so it's safe to assume Link was born there, of people similar to him (unless there's another vague orphan story like in OoT). I'd say that gives my theory as much creedal as any other, no?

aaanyway, just throwing that out there for discussion and to somewhat debate what was theorized in the linked article. I actually don't know much about SS's story aside from what I read about in the link above, I'm actually not following the game news much; aside checking for a tentative release date from time to time. I just happened to be bored enough to read through this thread, but I'm tired of being a nerd so I'll end this post here.

Discuss.

[Kytim89]

I would like to see multiple Links in a game with the style of Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword similar to the Four Swords games.

In Twilight Princess when Midna or some one else mentioned that the Twili were banished by a group of people called the "Anchient Ones" for trying to reach the Sacred Realm. are are the Anchient Ones? My theory is that the anchient ones are the rulers of Sky Loft and the progenitors of the Twili will be mentioned or revealed in Skyward Sword as a rival faction the Anchient Ones.

Here is my theory on the Ooccca and a youtube video pertaining to Skyward Sword:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdBEBdnxFo4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99W9yj86buo&feature=related

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

The more stuff you make up like that, the more the game is delayed.

[EasyCure]

The more stuff you make up like that, the more the game is delayed.

qft

[Kytim89]

[Luigi Dude]

Well at least we know it'll actually come out this year.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/01/29/skyward-sword-finishing-touches.aspx

Of course how much do you want to bet those finishing touches take another 9 months to make.

[stevey]

Never happening.
A Zelda game without a delay is impossible.

Then again, it could be a sign of the apocalypse and 2012 is creeping up