Gaming Forums => General Gaming => Topic started by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 12:42:09 PM
Title: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 12:42:09 PM
Just wanted to post a video of this being demonstrated live on Good Morning America yesterday morning.
Project Natal demonstrated on Good Morning America (http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7791505)
Some things to note about the video: -There is a visible lag between the player and the action on the screen -You apparently have to stand pretty far from the TV to get your full body scan, which means something like this will not be ideal for people playing in their smaller bedrooms or livingrooms with coffee tables. -And also means the camera has a pretty narrow field of vision since you have to stand that far back just full body scan and initialize (your character takes up most of the screen). +The body shapes between female & male changed instantly when the people switched places.
Kudo Tsunado demos Project Natal on Jimmy Fallon Show (Ball Slap & Burnout Paradise) (http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/blogs/2009/06/kudo-tsunado-demos-project-natal/)
Things to note about this video: -They are about 6-7 feet from the camera -There is a box marked on the floor that they have to stay in to be recognized -Why are they all wearing orange jump suits? +Very quick to recognize the new player when switching places.
Burnout Paradise Demo -Who wants to stand just to drive? -How do you press the brakes? -What if i'm driving manual? how do I shift gears? what about the clutch!!? +Very quick to recognize the new player when switching places.
I will update this post with more info later, but I honestly, while I see the potential for the tech, I don't see it doing much for gaming at the moment. I need to see something more creative than slap the balls. I think Eyetoy had that game back in 2003.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on June 11, 2009, 12:54:23 PM
Wow that looked really lame. No seriously.
I think the tech would be better served in UI's than in games.
Title: Project Natal on Jimmy Fallon Show
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 12:57:11 PM
I just posted a video of a demo on Jimmy Fallon Show too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on June 11, 2009, 01:32:36 PM
I think the tech would be better served in UI's than in games.
As long as it's not done the same way it was at E3 (waggle: one gesture per button press).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 01:54:40 PM
Well like I said, the tech is nice, and its functional, but I don't really see the benefit for gaming other than clones of the ball slapping game using different objects and backgrounds.
Maybe a "You Think You Can Dance" game where you have to match dance moves made by onscreen characters by doing them for real, or an American Idol/karaoke game where you have to sing and put on a performance at the same time.
or how about Patty Cake the video game, where you learn thing like; "Patty Cake, Patty Cake, Bakers Mam, Bake me a Cake as fast as you can" or "Miss Mary Black, Black, Black, all dressed in Black, Black, Black, with silver buttons, buttons, buttons, all down her back, back, back."
How about jump rope simulation. Now you'll finally be able to literally "Jump In"! You could learn basic jump rope, or even competitive Double Dutch!!!
really the possibilities are infinite
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 11, 2009, 02:06:51 PM
It would be pretty funny to see muscle march on this.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 02:15:59 PM
It would be pretty funny to see muscle march on this.
I just watched a video on this since I had no idea what it was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hcElGydzb8 :& that would be hilariously fun to watch someone else play. That game is borderline ..... umm, well, I'm sure you know.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2009, 02:31:58 PM
No, I'm pretty sure borderline is a lot worse.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 02:40:56 PM
Kudo Tsunado demos Project Natal on Jimmy Fallon Show (Ball Slap & Burnout Paradise) (http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/blogs/2009/06/kudo-tsunado-demos-project-natal/)
Burnout Paradise Demo -Who wants to stand just to drive? -How do you press the brakes? -What if i'm driving manual? how do I shift gears? what about the clutch!!? +Very quick to recognize the new player when switching places.
Had to add something to the Burnout demo impressions
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 03:11:52 PM
Oh noes!!
Sega Activator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=780bIG6TXFk) + Sony Eyetoy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY0SUqgVn7Q#t=34s) = Project Natal?
Atleast Fight Night Round 5 should be a good work out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 11, 2009, 04:10:03 PM
Kudo Tsunado demos Project Natal on Jimmy Fallon Show (Ball Slap & Burnout Paradise) (http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/blogs/2009/06/kudo-tsunado-demos-project-natal/)
Burnout Paradise Demo -Who wants to stand just to drive? -How do you press the brakes? -What if i'm driving manual? how do I shift gears? what about the clutch!!? +Very quick to recognize the new player when switching places.
Had to add something to the Burnout demo impressions
Eurogamer (IIRC) wrote that you move your leg back to brake and make a gear shifting gesture with your right hand to shift gears.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Caliban on June 11, 2009, 04:34:10 PM
Kudo Tsunado demos Project Natal on Jimmy Fallon Show (Ball Slap & Burnout Paradise) (http://www.latenightwithjimmyfallon.com/blogs/2009/06/kudo-tsunado-demos-project-natal/)
Bill Compton and the colour red go hand in hand lol.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 04:41:55 PM
Eurogamer (IIRC) wrote that you move your leg back to brake and make a gear shifting gesture with your right hand to shift gears
I thought leg back was for reverse? I think thats what they said in the video. Reverse could work like a brake for forward and vice versa.
But how would you determine if your up shifting or down shifting. What about changing the radio station or whatever other functions you do while playing racing games. like throwing green shells or using my turbo. How do I power slide!!? while throwing a green shell!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2009, 05:14:32 PM
I find that with new controller tech the best ideas are also directly connected to a solid videogame idea that more or less necessitated the idea in the first place. To me the best example of a new idea being introduced and immediately taking off is the analog stick. Super Mario 64 immediately established how the concept worked, what advantages it had, and proved how essential the concept was. It was clear that the game and controller were designed together. It's like Nintendo had this idea for Super Mario 64 and as they worked on it they need for something beyond a d-pad arose and the analog stick was designed to meet that need.
In this case I REALLY doubt that type of development has been done. It looks to me that MS saw the success of the Wii and told their R&D guys "we need something to combat the Wii remote". No game idea influenced its creation, it was just marketing. So I'm very skeptical.
You look at a ball slap game and the idea just reeks of "here is the tech, now what game can we make with it?" No one would come up with such a lame idea as a ball slap game and think "what control scheme would be most optimal for my game? Perhaps I'll have to create a new one." Lame ass ideas like that are the indicator of "tech first, game idea second."
Though to be fair very few controller ideas seem to stem from game concepts like the analog stick did. Most of the time you do get "oh gee, what games should we make for this?" routine.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: that Baby guy on June 11, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Reminds me of how the Gamecube's C-stick was made larger thanks to Luigi's Mansion, though that's not nearly the same scale. I have to agree, Ian.
The funniest idea is that the Wii-mote's proof-of-concept was Metroid Prime 2, really. It seems like it was built for the FPS genre specifically, and yet those titles are few-and-far-between on the Wii. Really makes no sense.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: AV on June 11, 2009, 06:30:49 PM
you guys remember the guy that did ' 3d head tracking on wii '
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw
he is now working for Microsoft specifically Project Natal
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 11, 2009, 06:49:02 PM
What about a game for it? This is kind of the problem Natal has too. Headtracking is a nice tech demo, but really has limited game possibilities. I'd imagine the stuff he'd make for Natal would be similar to the virtual window thing and nothing that would interest anybody for more then 5 minutes. Remember, the Natal has no controller, so unless MS wants people to point at the screen and say "bang," then, like BlacknMild said, the possibilities are finite.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: that Baby guy on June 11, 2009, 06:53:04 PM
While it's true Natal has no controller, that's truthfully a non-issue. The retail package could include a wand or controller, or something similar, and later, 360 controllers "shaped for convenience" with Natal could show up. It's not as though the use of Natal precludes all use of 360 controllers, much like how using a Guitar peripheral controller doesn't preclude using a 360 controller, either. For all intents and purposes, Natal has several different controllers, from band instruments to steering wheels, with this knowledge. The only current issue is that none of them are designed to work specifically with camera-based motion control.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 11, 2009, 07:02:51 PM
So I point my Nerf gun at the screen and say "Bang?"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: that Baby guy on June 11, 2009, 07:32:14 PM
No, no, the Wii has the Nerf gun controller, Deg. They'll have to make that one for the 360 if you want to use it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: nickmitch on June 11, 2009, 07:36:06 PM
I think the people from the Jimmy Fallon show said that the jump suits were just for fun, not for the demo.
Here are two videos with celebrities using the Natal and having fun. This is all well and good utnil you notice the clips from Burnout are exactly the same footage in each video.
So at best, MS edited away footage that would show Natal in a bad light and replaced it with stock footage. At worst, they had their techs, celebs, endorsers, and cameramen, film a blank screen and edit in the "footage" afterward. Why doesn't MS want anybody to see the actual footage?
Title: Natal to lauch like a new console
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 08:17:25 PM
Quote from: Kotaku interview with Shane Kim
On that day in the future when Microsoft launches its E3-darling Project Natal no-touch control system, it will feel like a console launch, a company exec told Kotaku.
Forget the launch of previous gaming cameras and mics like the PlayStation Eye or the Xbox Live Vision Camera when you try to imagine the impact Microsoft's Project Natal will have on billboards, TV channels and other places where ads run.
The birth of Natal will feel grander than that.
"Conceptually, the launch of Natal will be like the launch of Xbox 360," Microsoft's head of long-term Xbox 360 strategy, Shane Kim, told Kotaku during an interview at E3. "It's going to be that big. We're not just going to ship it when the hardware and software are ready. We have to make sure that there are enough content experiences that are really good. That's similar to how you would think of the launch of a new console. It's got to have a great launch line-up. That's the same thing here."
In a note to investors earlier this week, Wedbush Morgan Securities analyst Michael Pachter predicted that the Natal launch would require the support of approximately 30 third-party games.
As for who Microsoft hopes to catch with the Natal net, Kim said, "We're not focused on this generation's casual gamers or even PS2 people who haven't upgraded. This is about the 60% of households were a video game console doesn't exist… the problem is that the controller is a barrier for some people and now with Project Natal we completely eliminate that."
Whether you're a fan of Natal's potential or not, the idea of a console-sized launch for a gaming peripheral is impressive and hints at the potential for the device to find its audience.
If only [insert your favorite gaming peripheral] had that kind of support.
Natal is the Xbox360 Re-Launch. They better keep it under $100 if they plan on having any sort of success, and a bundle can not cost more than $250 w/ an Arcade. I'm not sure how they plan to pull it off, but its good to see MS taking this very seriously. It not only puts pressure on Nintendo to bring their A game, but for Sony to even attend the show.
All of that MS $$$ backing a world wide advertising campaign is gonna interesting to watch. They have alot of confidence in this camera, which is evident by the fact that they bought the company that was making it and the fact that EA was supposedly already working on a game for the camera(that they planned on releasing on their own) before MS bought out the camera company.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Flames_of_chaos on June 11, 2009, 08:21:09 PM
The retail package could include a wand or controller, or something similar, and later, 360 controllers "shaped for convenience" with Natal could show up.
But then they are going to Sony territory, which they are using 1 or 2 controllers in conjunction with the PS Eye. And if you recall, Sony's direction is extremely similar to what Nintendo is doing.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 11, 2009, 08:24:57 PM
Analysts are expecting it to cost at least $200. If that is true then this add-on will totally bomb. Even $100 would be a hard-sell (I would get it at $100 IF both E3 demos are included plus that Milo program).
Even if it's priced decently, I don't see this as being much of a threat to Nintendo. At best it will reach a small percentage of the Xbox 360 fanbase, it can't compete with the Wii's controls since the whole system is built around it and not sold as a add-on.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: that Baby guy on June 11, 2009, 08:27:03 PM
Isn't motion control very similar to what Nintendo is doing to begin with? I mean, it isn't like it's taboo to play motion-controlled games with buttons to add to the interface.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 08:37:12 PM
I'm saying that MS is putting major $$ into marketing this thing to the masses. Thats gonna make Nintendo have to step up and deliver their A game to keep people focused on Nintendo and their already seasoned Motion Controlled games. Nintendo already has they ear of the casual market, they just have to keep it focused on Ninendo's message.
But where does that leave Sony? marketing camera based Motion Controls to the same casuals that ignored it before and the same "hardcore" crowd thats been putting it down for years.
I just think its gonna be some interesting times up ahead. I still don't see what Natal will bring to the table as far as games are concerned, but I am very interested to find out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: nickmitch on June 11, 2009, 08:58:34 PM
As for who Microsoft hopes to catch with the Natal net, Kim said, "We're not focused on this generation's casual gamers or even PS2 people who haven't upgraded. This is about the 60% of households were a video game console doesn't exist… the problem is that the controller is a barrier for some people and now with Project Natal we completely eliminate that."
How does an expensive accessory to a pricey piece of hardware appeal to people who don't already own a video game console?? That doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 09:49:29 PM
The one fatal flaw in their plan, they didn't realize that owning a console was the barrier that had to be solved first.
thats why this is gonna be sooo entertaining. Not to mention that their whole reasoning sounds like something that was taken right out of a Nintendo interview in late 2005/early 2006 only adding in the part about "completely eliminating the controller".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on June 11, 2009, 10:54:03 PM
Looks cool but seems way too expensive.
I saw the breakout thing. Can you play with two people in any of these games or can Natal (what a terrible name, and people said Wii was bad) only "see" one person at a time?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2009, 10:59:52 PM
I saw the breakout thing. Can you play with two people in any of these games or can Natal (what a terrible name, and people said Wii was bad) only "see" one person at a time?
Thats a good question. All the demoes that they have shown so far involve one person at a time and they switch off for multiplayer. part of the Wii's success was that people in the same room could play together at the same time, while giving each other enough room to not smack each other in the face(even though it happened alot in the begginning anyway).
It looks like a single player takes up most of the field of vision for the full body scan of the camera, so I'm really not sure if it would do multi(same-time)play.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on June 11, 2009, 11:26:20 PM
So at best, MS edited away footage that would show Natal in a bad light and replaced it with stock footage. At worst, they had their techs, celebs, endorsers, and cameramen, film a blank screen and edit in the "footage" afterward. Why doesn't MS want anybody to see the actual footage?
It's a conspiracy. Save us, Cowboy Jed!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 12, 2009, 03:26:23 AM
In my view, when they public saw Wii, they didn't see the "motion controller," they saw people enjoying Wii Sports, and Wii Sports became synonymous with the machine. The activity, the experience was the product people were going out to acquire. Fortunately for PEOPLE, the base comprehensive package had a tag of $250. To Nintendo's credit, Wii's big E3 debut demonstrated this complete packaged the first time around, with the intention to sell it as such.
Here, I see an "Xbox 360," I see "Natal," and I see... "spazzing out".... WHAT EXACTLY IS THE BLOGGING SOCCER MOM SUPPOSED TO BE INTERESTED IN? At what price? and in how many retail boxes?
And what's the noncasual supposed to be interested in? Just ignore it and ignore the supposed casual influx MS is hoping to create? Is Natal even meant to play "regular games?" Oh.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ShyGuy on June 12, 2009, 03:47:24 AM
Natal needs to be bundled with Windows 7.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: that Baby guy on June 12, 2009, 03:59:12 AM
Depends: Which version of Windows 7 would be best to bundle it with?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ShyGuy on June 12, 2009, 04:04:14 AM
Ultimate and Chinese "three application at a time" versions only. NOTHING INBETWEEN
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 12, 2009, 09:19:46 AM
Natal is the Xbox360 Re-Launch. They better keep it under $100 if they plan on having any sort of success, and a bundle can not cost more than $250 w/ an Arcade. I'm not sure how they plan to pull it off, but its good to see MS taking this very seriously. It not only puts pressure on Nintendo to bring their A game, but for Sony to even attend the show.
All of that MS $$$ backing a world wide advertising campaign is gonna interesting to watch. They have alot of confidence in this camera, which is evident by the fact that they bought the company that was making it and the fact that EA was supposedly already working on a game for the camera(that they planned on releasing on their own) before MS bought out the camera company.
IF they keep their word, that is. Right now they can say anything, they can say they'll have 200 games ready for the launch. They haven't announced the release date.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: AV on June 12, 2009, 10:23:20 AM
I think it might be smart for Microsoft to sell this as an add on to 360 but also something you can buy and use on Windows that way it gets better market penetration.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 12, 2009, 10:30:17 AM
The 360 is already lacking in reasons to get it when you already have a PC.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on June 12, 2009, 12:15:49 PM
Quote
This is about the 60% of households were a video game console doesn't exist… the problem is that the controller is a barrier for some people and now with Project Natal we completely eliminate that.
Sounds like something Iwata would say. Do they think this is new? Or maybe this is for the people that find the remote too complicated. The casuals of the casuals. The non-non-gamers. ;)
I wouldn't be surprised if next gen consists of the Xbox 360 and PS3 with motion controls and a new console from Nintendo that supports HD and is comparible in specs to the other consoles. With the Wii you can actually point to where it could go. You just point at one of the many PS3/X360 games that are incapable of being ported to the Wii and there's the need to upgrade. But there aren't really any games, even on the PC, that couldn't be handled with the PS3/X360 hardware. In the past PC games, and before that arcade games, were ahead of consoles so you always saw the obvious need to up the specs. But you look at the intro to Resident Evil 5 and it looks like a damn movie.
We're supporting HDTVs. We're online. Motion control is something only Nintendo currently has but everyone is now making some attempt at it (though not any that impress me). Game development has become quite expensive. For the PS3 having a new console any time soon would just keep them in the hole they've dug themselves. They need the PS3 to become "old enough" that they can make a damn profit of it and maybe drop the price to something affordable.
Nintendo needs another gen but the others don't really. If they offer some sort of remote equivalent then all three consoles have addressed their shortcomings. That's probably the next gen. Even if MS or Sony want to get ahead by jumping another level up it's like the cost of making games that would look noticably better than what we have now would just eat them alive. Financially I think we're just at a hardware cap.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 12, 2009, 03:23:06 PM
Malstrom made a comparison, apparently MS's conference was almost word for word Nintendo's 2006 E3 conference.
Nintendo is currently the only one who can make a new gen (though not badly, HD is very low on most people's list for what a gaming system absolutely needs to be worth buying, games are at the istant top of that list) but they're probably working on a way to make the other two need one as well. Last gen we couldn't imagine motion controls happening, this gen we can't imagine the next step.
It's arguable that the dev costs already hurt MS and Sony's game developers. The game selection for their systems does seem very reduced compared to the PS2, at least.
Title: 1up Rumor: Natal is Xbox's next Console
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 12, 2009, 10:26:34 PM
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174762
Quote from: 1up
Earlier this week gaming blog Kotaku quoted Microsoft's Shane Kim as saying that the launch of Natal, Microsoft's new controller-free motion control technology, would be as big as the launch of a console. Not surprising. That's because Natal is going to be a new console.
Microsoft will not only release Natal as an add-on for the Xbox 360, it will come standard with the next Xbox console.
Yes, there will be a new Xbox console next fall.
However, the new console won't just be an Xbox 360 with a camera, though -- we've heard it will be considered a new platform and carry a new name (Xbox Natal?). Current Xbox 360 games would be playable on it, but future games would be able to take advantage of the added muscle.
Make no mistake, we wouldn't be talking about the sort of hardware leap we've seen with Xbox (or most other) platforms in the past, and we're not talking about Microsoft ending one console cycle and starting another. We're talking about an evolution of the Xbox 360; similar hardware but upgraded, repackaged, and rebranded. It's actually not that unlike what Nintendo did with the Wii, where it essentially took the GameCube hardware, stuck in motion controls, and successfully relaunched it. The new Xbox console is said to be aimed directly at a mainstream audience -- and will launch before Nintendo is able to release its Wii HD.
So when would we first hear about this new Xbox console? Our sources point to next year's Game Developer's Conference as the target for its unveiling and Fall 2010 as the target for release.
quoted rumor above is heavily chopped and the whole thing is at the link. I only posted the parts that I might have bolded.
This is along the lines of what has been mentioned before, but what are your thoughts on it?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 12, 2009, 11:13:47 PM
So they're going to leave their noncasual users in the dust just like Nintendo did? GOOD LUCK!
Nintendo's plans to destroy gaming are bearing fruit!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 12, 2009, 11:33:17 PM
Console execs trolling the competition is nothing new. Sony has done it constantly when someone talks to them about the DS killing the PSP (a Sony exec responds by saying crap like "the DS is a toy"). No one listens except the fanboys who love hearing the competition get put down.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 13, 2009, 02:39:28 AM
Isn't this similar to what Sega did during the Genesis years, where they started making all these crazy add-ons that doubled as their own consoles? Is Microsoft sure they want to go down that route?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 13, 2009, 12:06:52 PM
Isn't this similar to what Sega did during the Genesis years, where they started making all these crazy add-ons that doubled as their own consoles? Is Microsoft sure they want to go down that route?
The Wii is significantly farther down that route than any Xbox.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ShyGuy on June 13, 2009, 12:10:54 PM
Isn't this similar to what Sega did during the Genesis years, where they started making all these crazy add-ons that doubled as their own consoles? Is Microsoft sure they want to go down that route?
The Wii is significantly farther down that route than any Xbox.
Nintendid what Segan't.
That is, they succeeded in making an add on wildly successful and not damaging to the its console. (Wii Fit)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 13, 2009, 12:27:44 PM
I think releasing the Wii Fit board isn't the same as re-launching the Wii as a foot-controlled console, which is basically what MS is gonna do here.
I wonder what all those third parties are going to do, now that they will basically be forced to take a crash course on the motion controls they've been trying to marginalize for the past 3 years.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 13, 2009, 12:31:24 PM
I think releasing the Wii Fit board isn't the same as re-launching the Wii as a foot-controlled console, which is basically what MS is gonna do here.
I wonder what all those third parties are going to do, now that they will basically be forced to take a crash course on the motion controls they've been trying to marginalize for the past 3 years.
... They aren't going to utilize it. How the **** are you gonna play an FPS with this thing? You can't do it.
How do you walk forward? How do you aim? Is that camera really gonna see your little finger pull the trigger? 4-player split screen? Switching weapons? What about name entry systems? Keyboard layout, etc. What about jumping? Extreme acrobatics? Lots of action games have crazy flips and **** these days.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 13, 2009, 12:36:51 PM
The Wii is significantly farther down that route than any Xbox.
Accessories are not the same as add-ons. The Wii hasn't had anything that could be considered an add-on (except maybe Wii MotionPlus).
Part of the reason stuff like Sega CD and Sega 32X failed is that they were pretty expensive (Sega CD was almost as expensive as the Sega Genesis itself). This is the same problem Microsoft is facing with Natal's rumored price.
I honestly don't see Natal becoming anything more than niche. It will see some support (even crap systems like CD-i and N-Gage got some third party support), but I don't see it becoming popular enough to be a big deal. Don't get me wrong, it looks interesting to me. A combination of price and what appears to be a distance problem (if you really need to be about 6 feet away, that will be a big problem for anyone who has their system in a spot with small spaces. I can't even do stuff like push-ups in Wii Fit because I don't have enough space in my room) will keep it from becoming the success Microsoft thinks it will be.
I don't think controls are a problem. The camera looks like it could register you walking forward by just walking in place, you move your hands like you are aiming a gun to aim in the game and you make a motion like you are pulling a trigger to fire. I don't know if this would work in split-screen, but by yourself I see no problem.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 13, 2009, 01:59:51 PM
But FPSes have you walking in all directions, not just forward. Even if not, walking in place is going to tire you quickly. A 10 minute jog in Wii Fit already feels like quite a workout, imagine playing a game needing that for hours.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 14, 2009, 12:03:03 AM
Well we already have a term for FPS that only go one direction, right?
I'm just not able to think of anything Natal is capable of doing that impresses anybody, and it feels like they are trying to go after non-gamers, which is OK, but they are sort of being really smug and condescending about it.
Everybody knows Videogames have buttons. MS is like saying "Now we have a console for you, without any of those hard BUTTONS or CONTROL PADS, which are too complex for you anyway." And this will probably be reflected in the games for it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 14, 2009, 12:17:25 AM
This was mentioned in the CAGcast podcast, does anybody else think it is stupid to navigate the Dashboard using Natal? Based on the E3 press conference, it seems like it would be faster just to use the controller. It seems kind of gimmicky and the novelty would wear off after awhile.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2009, 02:13:36 AM
Yeah, I said that somewhere already. It's just pure waggle and seems pointless to me. The Minority Report thing seemed cool because it was an interface that worked pretty much like paper on a desk, this is just a button based menu with waggle gestures shoehorned in.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Urkel on June 14, 2009, 03:18:41 AM
It was a bit disingenuous when they made that "lol no waggle" comment. Besides scrolling through the menus with waggle, the Burnout demo used it too. Putting your foot forward for the gas and brake is also replacing a digital button press with a predefined gesture.
I imagine voice commands will also be used in place of buttons. lol voice waggle.
Unless there's some hidden functionality to this device that somehow allows you to play traditional games with it, it's just a Balance Board on steroids.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2009, 03:53:07 AM
The foot is an analog button press but yeah, waggle.
The balance board allows you to hold a controller while using it, I think Overturn for example lets you move with the board and aim with the Wiimote.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 14, 2009, 10:33:20 AM
I'm sure they'll pack a small controller of some sorts with the Natal hardware, for such uses as changing the camera angle, inventory, etc. It could just be a pair of analog sticks, akin to the nunchuck, but they've got to have something.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2009, 10:55:17 AM
But controllers are too difficult for people!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 14, 2009, 01:12:22 PM
I'm sure they'll pack a small controller of some sorts with the Natal hardware, for such uses as changing the camera angle, inventory, etc. It could just be a pair of analog sticks, akin to the nunchuck, but they've got to have something.
In an interview with Wired, Nintendo game designer and producer Shigeru Miyamoto defends the Wii's motion-sensing controllers and reveals that he is skeptical about the controller-less gaming technology of Project Natal which is coming out for the Xbox 360. After explaining that gamers need something to physically hold in their hands, Miyamoto refers to the Xbox 360's Project Natal and the PS3's motion controllers as "very basic technology."
"As someone who thinks of things from the perspective of creating interactive experiences, I really think that you do need something [to hold]. I don't think as a creator that I could create an experience that truly feels interactive if you don't have something to hold in your hand, if you don't have something like force feedback that you can feel from the controller." -Miyamoto
During the interview, Miyamoto went on to acknowledge that while Nintendo Wii's competitors, the PS3 and the Xbox 360, have shown at E3 that they're focusing more heavily on motion sensing technology, he believes that Project Natal's elimination of a controller is a big mistake.
"Looking at what the other companies have shown here at E3, it feels like they have finally obtained the very basic technology for doing motion control, but perhaps they still have to learn how to use that and take advantage of it in an interactive experience."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 16, 2009, 04:05:55 AM
LOL well then Miyamoto, whats the secret? 3rd Parties are DYING to know.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on June 16, 2009, 06:30:56 AM
I tend to agree with Miyamoto.
Remember how the DS was the biggest casual thing to casually cause casuality? It's still got 6 buttons and a control pad.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on June 16, 2009, 02:47:54 PM
Quote
This was mentioned in the CAGcast podcast, does anybody else think it is stupid to navigate the Dashboard using Natal? Based on the E3 press conference, it seems like it would be faster just to use the controller. It seems kind of gimmicky and the novelty would wear off after awhile.
Similar complaints have been made about the Wii. I think it's just a flaw in how motion control is often used. In the experience I've had with the Wii it isn't something to be used all the time but because it's new and hip it gets used for any circumstance where it appears you could implement it. So you have situations where you're shaking the remote around for a digital input that a simple button push would not only suffice but would be easier to do. There's a time and place for it and all three console makers need to understand that. It should provide some sort of enhancement not just make routine functions seem more exciting to the easily amused and frustrating to everyone else.
MS is really out there with the no buttons thing. I know Nintendo did a big song and dance about how people were confused about the controller and MS is taking that a step further. But I think for the Wii that was a red herring. I don't think the general public is as confused as Nintendo was acting like. The general public can use a car or a cellphone or a bank machine or a computer. We live in a society where people who cannot perform these tasks are at a huge disadvantage. Everyone knows how to use an iPod but they're all too stupid to figure out a controller? Bullshit. The Wii sold with casuals because of the games being made. Games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit appealed to this market where more traditional game themes like shooting aliens or fighting goblins with a sword and shield didn't. Gaming is kind of nerdy and juvenile and the secret to connecting with the mainstream is go outside the stereotype. That's why sports games were always popular with the "casual gamer" and Guitar Hero and Rock Band have taken off. It isn't just nerds pretending to be wizards and space marines or kids playing with cuddly mascots or immature teens playing their murder simulators.
And why does motion control have to be so associated with non-gaming? MS and Sony should recognize that Nintendo is restricting themselves but associating motion control so much with non-gaming. There is a huge potential for motion control in core gaming and we've seen only a sniff of it on the Wii, mostly due to third parties not bringing the goods. So why not take motion control to the next level and fully use it with core games? Take advantage of the fact that the Wii is associated with casual junk and gimmicky waggle and show how to REALLY do motion control. But instead they're just being trying to directly compete with Nintendo and the association between motion control and novelty casual game junk continues. The console maker that truly demonstrates the full potential of motion control will crush the others.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 16, 2009, 03:00:31 PM
"So why not take motion control to the next level and fully use it with core games?"
Cuz there's lots of money in the non-gaming pie, and MS/Sony know they don't have the talent and resources to take full advantage of it without alienating their existing audience, which is currently their only cash source at the moment.
Nintendo is the only one in any practical position to do it since they've been slowly ramping up the Wii platform since the beginning by making a motion-enabled remote control the standard object to be held by the consumer from the beginning, and not shoehorning cameras and wands into an entrenched market.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on June 16, 2009, 03:50:31 PM
Using motion controls in core games is a contradiction, core games are defined as not caring much about controls (or at least not nearly as much as graphics). That's why I object to the use of core as the opposite to casual, they're independent concepts. Currently veteran gamers are mostly served by core games but that may yet change. Red Steel 2 is not a core game, its big feature is that it uses the WMP and all that, it doesn't matter that it's in a genre for veteran gamers.
I'm waiting for Dynamic Slash because I think Sandlot has shown a lot of experience in properly utilizing the controls they are given and making games around those controls. EDF had gigantic enemies to compensate for the natural inaccuracy of the dual analog aiming, Chou Soujuu Mecha MG turned the touchscreen controls into a vital part of the game. Too bad nothing new was shown since the October conference.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on June 16, 2009, 04:29:46 PM
Quote
Using motion controls in core games is a contradiction, core games are defined as not caring much about controls (or at least not nearly as much as graphics). That's why I object to the use of core as the opposite to casual, they're independent concepts. Currently veteran gamers are mostly served by core games but that may yet change. Red Steel 2 is not a core game, its big feature is that it uses the WMP and all that, it doesn't matter that it's in a genre for veteran gamers.
Let's not play the "open interpretation of terms" game. You know what I mean. I mean games targetted at the old market. Something like Metroid Prime 3 that is clearly aimed at the old market and makes full use of motion control. It demonstrates the potential for motion control to be used for games like that.
Or maybe this is a better way to put it: the goal should be for motion control to benefit ALL games for ALL types of audiences and not just be associated with casual stuff. MS and Sony, much like most Wii third parties, are treating it like some novelty to attract grandmas while the "real" games continue to use the controller. Maybe motion control isn't quite suited to be the standard like Nintendo talks about. But we're not really seeing a full effort to test that. It's being treated like a novelty.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: kraken613 on July 03, 2009, 01:29:00 AM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 03, 2009, 01:03:49 PM
That was kinda funny, but the video would only load and play while I was moving the mouse... the sound would play normally though.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on July 03, 2009, 08:13:36 PM
i had a game like that years ago that came with my first webcam, nothing revolutionary or special
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on July 13, 2009, 04:33:36 PM
Buttons are good. They allow a player to turn a slight tightening of a finger tendon into a command issued on screen.
Making it so every command needs to be a gesture would literally be the worst thing to ever happen to gaming. How could you play an FPS and switch weapons while simultaneously strafing while jumping and taking aim at an enemy, and then how do you actually SHOOT?
Or for a more apt analogy, how do you throw a pitch that you want to be an outside curveball, thrown underhanded?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on July 13, 2009, 05:40:16 PM
This is a funny video, that, while satirical, totally stabs at the whole heart of Natal's assumption of everybody's incompetence at video games, and also sorta makes fun that Microsoft had literally nothing to show as far as games for the device.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 24, 2009, 01:30:30 PM
Speaking to VideoGamer.com Rare design director George Andreas has revealed that while it may not be immediately obvious how a first-person shooter would work with Natal, it's just a case of having to rethink how you approach the particular design problems.
"We’re learning a lot of stuff about Natal every day, and there are many types of experiences that can be created with that technology. You just need to be able to rethink how you approach those particular design problems," said Andreas.
"To take a shooter, as an example, you would just have to rethink the way a shooter works," explained Andreas. "Shooters work the way they do at the moment because they’re based around the original Xbox 360 controller. You throw that away, you throw that interface away and here’s a completely different interface – now how do we create a shooter for this? Does it mean that you have to run, strafe, turn, throw grenades in the way that you’re used to? Maybe not. Maybe there’s another way of doing shooters."
He added: "You’re probably not going to get exactly the same experience that you do with a conventional controller, but that could also be a very good thing. There may be new avenues there that people haven’t explored yet that might open the product up to an even broader audience. We don’t know."
Andreas concluded: "So, can you do a shooter on Natal? Of course you can. Will it be exactly the same as something you’re used to on a control pad? The answer to that is probably not, but does that mean it’s better or worse? Well we’ll see what we can do."
Natal is currently expected to be released in 2010.
Ohh this is gonna be fun ::makes gun shape with hand:: "Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on August 24, 2009, 01:39:31 PM
The shooter is the genre that needs the least changing on the Wii but the same rethinking issue applies to e.g. brawlers that want to use the Wii controls in a meaningful way.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on August 26, 2009, 12:18:33 PM
So FPS devs need to innovate? Love to see how that turns out.
Rail-shooters cometh..
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 26, 2009, 01:32:19 PM
He'll just be cutting out the crazy parts of his own mind. no need to worry. Besides, what could possibly go wrong?
I miss cutting out those crazy monsters and prevent the end of the world/HD On-rail shooters via project Natal?
see how i got things back on track? ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 29, 2009, 07:26:53 PM
Quote
Studio reveals it’s looking for creative minds beyond of game design
Rare’s approach to project Natal may not be as game-centric as initially believed.
A recent recruitment ad campaign revealed that the UK developer is looking for new staff that are not particularly versed in game design.
“Your experience in games design is not necessarily important,” it read.
“We’re also not too bothered about what roles you have had and what games you have worked on. What we really need is the ability to think differently, think ahead and challenge the rules of what an interactive experience can be.”
The advertisements were found on Toy News, a trade publication for the toy business sector, which in itself compounded suggestions Rare’s Natal efforts will go beyond traditional game design.
“Rare is at the forefront of bringing Natal to life,” said the group, ”and is hard at work creating cool new experiences.”
Seems to me like Rare is having troubles coming up with gaming ideas for Natal and is reaching out to non-gamers for a fresh look and new ideas from an outside perspective.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on August 30, 2009, 12:16:09 AM
If you want a good idea to what Natal will bring to games, just imagine playing every DS game with only stylus control, yet no tactile sensation. Whereas DS games had digital touch control with game and scenario-specific interpretations, Natal will be completely interpretative controls with further interpretations for the game.
That doesn't sound too good, does it? Some DS and Wii games do a bad job of guessing what you meant by what you did, imagine Natal trying to guess what you did and what you meant by what it thought you did.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 30, 2009, 04:12:18 PM
Using Natal is like swirling your arms in a vat of mashed potatoes.
huh
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on August 31, 2009, 05:43:28 PM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on August 31, 2009, 05:48:14 PM
Good find.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 01, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
Take Two does for MS's Xbox360 what it refused to even consider for Nintendo's Wii (http://www.vg247.com/2009/09/01/take-two-natal-dev-kits-embedded-in-just-about-all-of-our-studios/)
Quote
Take-Two CEO Ben Feder told investors during the company’s Q3 2009 financial call today that motion sensor kits are currently in-house and in the hands of the development team as we speak.
“Natal motion-sensors - yes we have dev kits, yes we’re working on them,” he said. “Obviously, we can’t comment on games we haven’t announced. But those dev kits are embedded in all of our studios, or just about all of our studios, and everybody’s working with them to try to figure out new ways in which we can innovate and create the kind of content that this company is famous for.
“So yes, we’re working on it.”
At least we think Feder said that. There were too many people adding their input on the question at the time. We will have another listen just to be sure.
Anyway, later on during the call, it was clarified that Sony’s motion controller was currently in-house as well.
So that’s good to know.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 01, 2009, 09:16:58 PM
I find it infuriating that companies are singing the praises of this crap while still badmouthing the Wii.
Natals will collect more dust than Wiis ever did.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on September 01, 2009, 10:23:48 PM
I find it infuriating that companies are singing the praises of this crap while still badmouthing the Wii.
Natals will collect more dust than Wiis ever did.
Seconded.
If there's one thing that really gets under my skin its hypocrisy. I can't stand it. If Take-Two just came out and said "yeah we're excited to work with Natal kits because we can innovate IN HIGH DEFINITION, something we just can't do on the wii" then I'd be ok with it. As it stands, people like this are just hypocrite scumbags.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 02, 2009, 12:19:19 PM
I now wonder what Natal failure rates will be like compared to Wii Remote failure rates.
/Pondering failure rates of failure rates
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 02, 2009, 03:45:07 PM
I now wonder what Natal failure rates will be like compared to Wii Remote failure rates.
/Pondering failure rates of failure rates
I'm more interested in what the players failure rates will be, cuz this comes in two flavors:
You got your OMGCASUALZ who'll be playing like hyperactive retarded monkeys and start breaking everything around them (including Natal of course).
And you'll have your uber-schlubs who'll do as little movement as possible, get sick of Natal-enabled games and leave the thing collecting dust until something clogs something else and when they do decide to turn it on (in order to take a picture of their penis and ride it in an adventure game) it'll overheat and die.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 03, 2009, 04:03:52 PM
So if the details I'm hearing are correct....
Mistake #1: Launching Natal as an add-on peripheral instead of rebranding a new Xbox line with it.
Are they insane? Nintendo pondered launching the remote as a GC add-on peripheral, but wisely decided that this would require an entire rebranding to get the effect they were looking for, hence the Wii. If it doesn't ship with the system, no 3rd party in their right mind is going to seriously develop for it (without moneyhats, I suppose).
Mistake #2: $200 pricetag!
Answer to a rhetorical question: yes, they clearly ARE insane. Not only will Natal be a separate peripheral that must be purchased independent of a $300 console, but it'll cost another $200 as well.
After the moneyhats stop, no developer is going to want to work with this thing due to the extreme amount of risk involved. A separate peripheral that is DESTINED to wind up being relegated to the status of "gimmick" that costs $200 and doesn't have the necessary rebranding to get it into homes as a family-friendly device.
I mean, wow, just...WOW...
Maelstrom was completely correct in his discussion of the "Birdman Fallacy". Here, MS is watching Nintendo do extremely well and can only come away with the conclusion that it must be due to the fact that people love jumping around like idiots while playing games. Ergo, if they release a controller that lets people jump around like idiots, they'll be successful, too.
They have absolutely no grasp of the fact that it was the complete rebranding of the Wii as something that the non-gaming populace would want to own that made it so successful. Nor do they grasp the fact that, after the novelty wears off, motion control isn't a selling point for games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 03, 2009, 04:12:55 PM
They have to be insane enough to make up an expensive peripheral that would succeed in Bizarro World in order to compete with Nintendo's reality.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on September 04, 2009, 03:03:39 PM
At the risk of bringing up Malstrom again I think he was right about Natal, it is smoke.
This isn't a serious attempt at anything, its throwing up smoke to try to grab a little attention from the media and the competition. It will either be delayed indefinitely or sent to die on purpose with only the minimum of support. It is too ridiculous to be anything else.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Caterkiller on September 04, 2009, 06:29:35 PM
Can someone explain to me how traditional games are supposed to work? With Wii I knew right off the bat how they would work. But for a real FPS, how would one travel around aim and shoot? Would they make games dumb enough to hold the 360 controller and have motion with your body at the same time?
Last question is Natal a real word? Or are they trying to be the new Wii, like Wii was to "mamasay-mamasaw-mamakusa" or "ramalamadingdong"?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: King of Twitch on September 04, 2009, 06:39:03 PM
These are excellent questions.
Depending on how you google, Natal is...
-region of southeast Africa on the Indian Ocean -Seaport and city, northeastern Brazil -of, relating to, or present at birth
Meaning... Microsoft Natal will be aimed at gamers who aren't even able to hold a controller without slobbering all over it. I guess it cuts down on nasty online swear-fests.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 04, 2009, 06:47:58 PM
"Can someone explain to me how traditional games are supposed to work?"
They're not (they've already shown it doesn't work). They're supposed to make "brand new experiences" for the demanding and less demanding audiences.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 05, 2009, 12:32:03 AM
SEGA is Jumping In early (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/sega-expecting-to-announce-natal-sony-motion-projects-in-early-2010/)
Quote
Next year Sony and Microsoft will both be introducing their new motion technologies, which were unveiled back at E3. Publishers and developers have been taking a hard look at both Project Natal and Sony's motion controller, trying to decide how to support them. We've yet to hear any concrete game announcements for the technologies yet. However, speaking to IndustryGamers recently, Sega West President Mike Hayes said that it's likely we'll be hearing from Sega on their projects in early 2010.
"We'd like to think that in early 2010 we'll be making announcements about both of those platforms," he noted.
Hayes said that projects right now are basically in an R&D phase. "We have our ideas and we know what we want to do, but the technology is pretty new, particularly with Natal, so we've got to get to grips with the technology and see if it can do what we want it do," he said, adding about the experimentation, "I kind of think of it as the land of bunsen burners and test tubes."
Take-Two also just talked about dev kits for Natal and Sony's technology being "embedded" in nearly all their studios. We're very curious to see what all these game companies cook up for the new motion platforms.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 06, 2009, 12:45:30 AM
Sega also jumped in early on the N-Gage.
But wow, this is irritating. So all these developers have given up on the Wii but are convinced that shittier versions of motion control on HD consoles are where it's at? There just aren't any words for this...
It doesn't take more than a bit of poking around to understand why a lot of people have fallen away from the Wii: people don't like to move around a lot while gaming. It was fun for a while, but making people flail around was a novelty and it has already overstayed its welcome.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 06, 2009, 01:55:59 AM
That;s the beauty of the Wii and why you realize the genius of Nintendo when it comes to market research and understanding. You don't have to get up and move around alot with the Wii. Nintendo researched the Wiimote to the point where it was engineered to allow grand gestures covering a large area, subtle movements from the comfort of the couch or any range inbetween. That is a luxury that Sony Wand & Natal do not have.
Natal requires a rather large area in front of the camera just to read your movements properly. Something like 5-6 feet of space. I'm not sure how many people have that kinda space just to capture full body movement. It might be ok for just head tracking(from the couch), but that's not the selling point for Natal now is it?
Wand does spacial tracking, which means you're gonna need to move around the room to get different angles, whether it's left to right or up and down, you're still gonna be moving around. You also have 1:1 3D visual tracking which means that if you need to do certain moves in-game, you're gonna have to do them the same in real life. That's not gonna translate well from the comfort of the couch.
While I appreciate the things that Natal and Wand are gonna bring to the table, I just don't think that those approaches have been as well thought out as the Wiimote when it comes to user operability in all gaming situations.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 06, 2009, 02:49:27 AM
No, the problem is that publishers act like the Wii market is a total paradox that they could never possibly understand. If they would just release regular games at a high quaity on the system they'd do well, maybe not as good as possible but well anyway. Instead they never make anything that hasn't been done before (especially by Nintendo) and usually mess up on the quality, then wonder why noone wants their third rate knockoff. Instead of thinking what the system doesn't have they look at what it does and try to throw another piece of garbage into that overcrowded arena. Wii Sports? Yes, surely people who got a free set of great but simple sports games want a ton of crappy minigames instead of, say, more fleshed out versions of the sports they got to taste. They complain that Nintendo hogs all the sales but it's their own fault for half-assedly copying what Nintendo has done instead of breaking new ground and sidestepping Nintendo's games entirely.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 06, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
Another in day in new generation gaming, another exercise in truth posting.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 07, 2009, 02:54:17 PM
MS demonstrated Natal at GamesCon in Cologne, Germany. Videogamer.com post impressions (http://www.videogamer.com/features/article/07-09-2009-780.html)
Quote from: Input Lag:
Richochet over, Kudo moved onto a racing demo which uses a modified version of EA's Burnout Paradise. There's no controller or racing wheel in sight. Steering the car is a case of putting your arms forward as if holding a steering wheel, while a step forward (as if putting your foot on the gas) accelerates and the same foot back brakes. It seemed to work, but having missed out on the Richochet demo, I had to try it for myself. I shot up and stepped into the driving seat. My hands grasped around an imaginary wheel, I put my right foot forward and the car screeched away. Not actually holding anything in my hands the controls felt slightly unnatural, but amazingly lag was negligible (Microsoft claims a 66ms delay, which is the same as that introduced by a standard controller) and I was able to scream around Paradise City with no problems. Kudo even tried to make me crash by standing beside to me and pretending to drive - somehow Natal knew that it was my actions and not his that it had to monitor.
Well seems good and all, but who is gonna want to hold their hands in the air the whole time especially during an intense and long race? & with one foot placed forward the whole time? I got a coffee table in my livingroom, where am I to find the space? My bedroom really isn't set up with the required space to play this comfortably either.
Quote from: Tech
Demos over Kudo switched his focus to the technology that makes Natal tick. The Natal sensor combines an RGB camera, infra-red depth sensor, multi array microphone and custom processor, making it possible to not only track the movement of up to four people, but also facial recognition and voice control.
The RGB video camera delivers your standard image (that you get with the current Xbox LIVE Vision camera) and enables functionality including facial recognition - something which could be used to sign into Xbox LIVE. Presumably this will also supply video for video chat and other video and photo functionality. It's the depth sensor, however, that elevates Natal to something special - an infra-red projector combined with a monochrome CMOS sensor (a technology to capture images in digital form) allows Natal to see the room in 3D. What's more it can do this under any lighting conditions, meaning the days of requiring an unnaturally well-lit room in order to play using a camera should be a thing of the past.
Add to this a multiarray microphone which Microsoft says will be able to locate voices around the room and extract ambient noise. This will bring voice control to Xbox 360 and enable users to chat on Xbox LIVE without the need to wear a headset. And all this is held together with a custom processor meaning the fancy motion tracking should not eat into the Xbox 360's horsepower - something demonstrated by the fact Burnout Paradise, a game not developed for Natal, is running with no perceivable negative impact on performance.
This is half the reason why Natal is gonna cost too much for an add-on. Who is gonna pay the rumored $200+ for Natal? then an additional $200+ for an Xbox 360 if you don't already have one? This is a push for the more casual, so who is gonna wanna Jump In @ a starting price of $400 minimum + Software, HDD and a LIVE account?
Quote from: how a FPS would work...
It's all well and good to have this impressive tech, but what of the games. We've seen how a driving game could work, but how would something like a first-person shooter shape up using Natal? Kudo, obviously well rehearsed on the subject of the FPS, explained how you might one day be shooting down aliens using nothing but your body. For starters you'd position your arms and hands as if holding a gun and you'd aim by pointing the imaginary gun. To move forward you move the gun towards the screen, bring it back to move back. Likewise, moving the gun to either side would strafe. Jump by jumping, knife an enemy by making a slashing motion, throw a grenade by... well, you've got the idea. And what about firing your gun? Use the trigger finger, of course. It's too early to know if this will work when put into practice, but the possibility is certainly there.
I would just refer back to my last post on motion controls. This simply would not work after the first time you play and the novelty wears off. Who wants to have to jump around just to play the game? Not only would that only be fun for the first few times you play and/or show it off to friends, but how many people have that kind of room without painstakingly rearranging the livingroom, den or bedroom everytime you want to play?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on September 07, 2009, 03:37:37 PM
From the article above:
"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."
Exactly. "Promise". Thats all there ever is. Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii. Somthing this is certainely possible with hardware. I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on September 07, 2009, 03:38:06 PM
From the article above:
"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."
Exactly. "Promise". Thats all there ever is. Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii. Somthing this is certainely possible with Wii hardware. I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 08, 2009, 01:50:03 AM
"Sure, much of what has been seen is nothing more than tech demos, but the promise of more is there and, most importantly, the technology works."
Exactly. "Promise". Thats all there ever is. Almost 4 years later, we're still waiting on 3rd parties to create immersive non gimmicky basketball, baseball, and football games for the Wii. Somthing this is certainely possible with hardware. I highly doubt that just b/c its on the 360 or even PS3, these developers will somehow get it right.
And this is why all this Natal praise bothers me.
Many developers have said that the Wii has failed to reach its full potential, that motion controls are a fad and that developing a game for the Wii can be limited. Yet Natal has an extremely absurd concept (no controller whatsoever) and it has won the praise and support of the same people who trashed the Wii for being a limited fad.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if MS money hatted the HELL out of developers and journalists. I hate to dive into a fanboy conspiracy theory, but when the Wii premiered there was a healthy amount of skepticism and optimism. Now Natal it seems to have gained universal love and support despite only having tech demos when it premiered. Hell, I don't even recall the PS3 wand getting the same kind of love Natal is getting.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 08, 2009, 02:46:45 AM
Natal is getting universal love and support from game dev reps and the media, the reaction from regular people seems to be extremely sceptical.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 08, 2009, 03:17:15 AM
That's because Natal is HARDCORE like P90X.
The way I see it, the Wiimote w/ M+ is the most universally compatible design that could work in practically any gaming situation.
Sony wand is the best approach at what it's trying to do, 1:1 motion controls, but the design leaves alot to be desired. Glowing orbs on sticks could look alot better.
Natal is a like a parody of the whole idea, like a Motion Control Movie (Date Movie, Disaster Movie, etc etc.). It takes the most exaggerated movements from wiimote control and focuses on just that. I know that that is not all Natal is capable of, but from the ideas being thrown around, it seems that's all they have come up with.
Ideally a combination of the 3 would be great, but patents will make sure something like that doesn't happen anytime soon. If you could have the wiimote, pointer functions and all(M+ included), with the Natal camera(cpu & mic built in) mixed with Sony's visual controller detection for 3D 1:1 tracking we could actually take motion control where it should be going. Virtual Reality.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 08, 2009, 12:27:56 PM
The Wii Remote is the only solution of the three that can execute swordplay, fit in a guitar, fit in a shotgun, and play Nintendo Entertainment System games, for different TANGIBLE experiences.
That's plenty of reality fun that doesn't have to be totally virtual.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 08, 2009, 06:11:33 PM
That's how I described the wiimote though, "universally compatible design that could work in practically any gaming situation."
I can play tennis, break a sweat, benefit from the exercise, play against a friend, yet never leave the comfort of my home, and thats not totally virtual.
But ultimately what we are moving towards with motion controls is a Virtual Reality. Where we can do things, without having to actually do them. (not looking towards a Total Recall or Matrix)
Get rid of the TV and invent a holodeck and then we're really talking(the virtual reality we should try to get to), but thats still a long way off.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 08, 2009, 07:55:18 PM
To get back on point though, this whole Natal thing just proves that MS doesn't quite get it.
When Nintendo came up with the Wiimote, they first thought up games and interface ideas, then needed a way to do it. So they created the Wiimote.
MS saw technology and bought it, then they try to solve the million dollar question on how do they use it. What software can they adapt to the hardware. Which is evident by the complete lack of compelling software or ideas on adapting it to existing games. A completely opposite of Nintendo who has adapted the hardware to work with their software.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 09, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
To get back on point though, this whole Natal thing just proves that MS doesn't quite get it.
When Nintendo came up with the Wiimote, they first thought up games and interface ideas, then needed a way to do it. So they created the Wiimote.
MS saw technology and bought it, then they try to solve the million dollar question on how do they use it. What software can they adapt to the hardware. Which is evident by the complete lack of compelling software or ideas on adapting it to existing games. A completely opposite of Nintendo who has adapted the hardware to work with their software.
So Microsoft is trying to stick a square peg in a round hole is what you're saying.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 09, 2009, 08:31:03 AM
More like trying to stick a steel pole in an active light socket. The results are gonna be shocking.
You can only money hat so much support before developers just stop trying. There is so much untapped potential with the wiimote, which is still a traditional style controller, and 3 years later developers are just now starting to figuring it out. I don't have much hope for anything more than 15 minute gimmick games without much replay value.
That ball slapping game they were demoing with Natal, if you could control spin and angle on that and have to aim at target all over the screen, that might add some challenge and replay value, but from what they were demoing, it seemed like it was hard enough to be in the way of the ball so that it would bounce back. That seems like a 15 minute gimmick game.
Burnout with two hands in the air and one foot forward.... what is this? the hokey pokey? playing like that is gonna be too tiresome and uncomfortable for extended play.
What they need is a WiiSports. Something simplistic at first, but the more you play, the more depth you discover. Easy to pick up, hard to master. I know they haven't shown much software yet, but from what has been shown, and stories that have been told, it doesn't really seem like they have come up with that "casual friendly, hardcore approved" game yet. & at $200(rumored) it had better be some damn good game since the jump in price is gonna be $400 starting.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 09, 2009, 09:00:19 AM
Microsoft; Like school in summer time... No Class (No Knowledge?)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 09, 2009, 12:03:10 PM
Will it even be bundled with a game? A rubber ducky demo? Fantavision? Duck Hunt?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on September 10, 2009, 01:27:09 PM
Will it come with the Fly Swatter mini-game from Mario Paint?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 10, 2009, 01:38:33 PM
I think we should look more at the EyeToy minigames.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on September 10, 2009, 01:39:35 PM
EyeToy games suck ass, Fly Swatter is better then all of them.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 10, 2009, 04:00:30 PM
Yeah but Natal is more like the Eye Toy than the SNES mouse.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on September 10, 2009, 04:59:50 PM
Exactly.
Better to look semi[/i] normal with a mouse then it is to swing around your arms like you're having a seizure.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 14, 2009, 12:57:38 AM
What they need is a WiiSports. Something simplistic at first, but the more you play, the more depth you discover. Easy to pick up, hard to master. I know they haven't shown much software yet, but from what has been shown, and stories that have been told, it doesn't really seem like they have come up with that "casual friendly, hardcore approved" game yet. & at $200(rumored) it had better be some damn good game since the jump in price is gonna be $400 starting.
And they haven't answered the BIG question: who is going to buy this thing?
It's not hardcore gamers because they look upon it with disgust (and rightly so).
It's not going to be mothers for their kids: A $200 peripheral on top of a $300 system? I think not.
It's not going to be non-gamers: they're not going to go spend $500 on a concept that the Eyetoy largely already covered.
So who exactly is going to buy this thing?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 14, 2009, 01:06:01 AM
"So who exactly is going to buy this thing?"
360 Fanbois that bashed the Wii for pointing & waggle and now want to hop on the the motion control bandwagon with out admitting that Nintendo was on the right track while praising MS for doing it "right".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Shorty McNostril on September 14, 2009, 02:37:39 AM
They will be the ones spouting enthusiasm for jumping around in the loungeroom playing HALO Natal.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 14, 2009, 02:45:56 AM
Black and white would work really well with this. No really.
Also, GTA: Where my money bitch? where you literally have to smack your hoes when they disrespectin' would be off the chain. No wonder TakeTwo is jumping on it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 14, 2009, 11:18:11 AM
Black and white would work really well with this. No really.
Also, GTA: Where my money bitch? where you literally have to smack your hoes when they disrespectin' would be off the chain. No wonder TakeTwo is jumping on it.
Oh god, Hot Cofee Natal...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 14, 2009, 01:44:27 PM
Black and white would work really well with this. No really.
Also, GTA: Where my money bitch? where you literally have to smack your hoes when they disrespectin' would be off the chain. No wonder TakeTwo is jumping on it.
Oh god, Hot Cofee Natal...
*Dad walks in on son playing Hot Coffee Natal..... walk right back out of the room*
moments later.... *Mom walks in on son playing Hot Coffee Natal, drops whatever is in her hands and then faints thinking her son has maybe seen what her and daddy do when they think he is asleep"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 14, 2009, 03:22:35 PM
They'll give new meaning to the term "hardcore"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 14, 2009, 03:31:19 PM
SPR: Sex Positions REVOLUTION
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 15, 2009, 09:01:39 PM
You know I am going to have to try to give a balanced position here.
I am kinda shocked that everyone at the Nintendo website is talking like this honestly. I remember when Nintendo first unveiled the Wiimote and people were shocked and upset about the new controller. If I remember correctly the very first introduction didn't even show the Wii Nunchuk so we had no idea how it would play traditional games and we were dumb founded how games would be played on the system.
There was even hype from developers that didn't totally understand the hardware jumping on the bandwagon. In the end, Nintendo proved to have more up their sleeve with the technology and the Wii remote and its accessories worked beautifully. All we know right now is the Natal tech demo stuff and what has been shown. There may be a type of controller with the system in the end, or the technology may really work where you don't need a controller at all.
The point is any innovation in gaming is a good thing, and we should celebrate it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 15, 2009, 10:23:51 PM
But MS promoted this to be used with NO CONTROLLER. Sony patented using house hold items as objects in game, so you can scratch that out too.
All thats left is air guitar, finger gun, invisible wheel with hokey pokey pedals and looking at the bottom of my shoe.
Why should we be optimistic about this? I'm not outright dismissing it or anything, I'm just not seeing what the hype is all about yet. All I have seen is Rare desperately seeking non-gamers for fresh looks towards non-gaming and developers spouting off horrible control set-ups for existing genres that they are forcing to work with Natal.
When they show something worth being optimistic about, then maybe we won't be so quick to criticize....
or maybe we will.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 15, 2009, 10:52:02 PM
Spak, I undestand your point, but do you remember what the first piece of software Nintendo showed us that used the Wiimote?
Miyamoto playing conductor in Wiimusic.
That made it instantly click for everybody; even the skeptics. From then on we were shown the Wiisports package and it blew everyone away. Why? Because it seemed so natural.
This, however, does not. After thinking about it for a while, I was only able to come up with one game that it could possibly work well with. Remember when all we knew was that the Wiimote would use licensed technology from a company that made gyroscopes? I made hundreds of plausible games that are still feasible today.
That's the difference. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't wrap my head around how this would be for GAMING. This is awesome if you want to interact with someone across the world, and for telecommunication in general, but for gaming? I just don't know yet and nothing I've seen as proved the concept to me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 16, 2009, 06:36:33 AM
More importantly it's Microsoft we're talking about, they have a tendency to overpromise and underdeliver just to kill off a competing product with hype about what "will be", once the job is done the advertised product is either frozen eternally or stripped down massively.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 16, 2009, 08:57:37 AM
Natal doesn't have buttons and probably never will. 'nuff said.
Want more? Fine. At least the wii remote (even when shown alone, before the nunchuk) had buttons. Done.
No, but seriously, it was still something that gamers could wrap their heads around, but still also odd enough to be curious about. The point is there was something there to speculate on. The thought process was "well we know it has buttons and a D-pad, but how will it offer analog control? We know it'll have IR controls for 'pixel perfect accuracy' so maybe certain types of games will play like DS stylus controlled games...?" There was something there we could understand, and the stuff we didn't we could speculate on. It was easy to come up with what would be blue ocean games, like wiisports, would be like; "oh hey you can use it to swing a bat, like baseball!" and we had to question what core games like Mario/Zelda would play like...
Now, take what we know about Natal (meant to be used WITHOUT a controller, at all. None.) and couple that with what Microsofts intentions for it are (a means to cater to the "casual" grandma crowd) and what we're left wondering is:
-How will this work for core games? FPS specifically (being the seamingly dominant genre on the xbox brand)
-Will this even be used at ALL for core games?
-Will this become a standard feature of the xbox? Something that'll be packed in with a future console?
It just seems that with Wii, it was either something ya understood right away, or didn't. With Natal.. no one seems to "get it" yet. Couple that with Microsofts intentions and its hard NOT to be skeptical about the whole thing.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 16, 2009, 10:09:19 AM
I'll stop being a skeptic when I try the thing for myself and it works, despite me having someone walk in front of me mid-game, despite dimming the lights and seeing if it can still see me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 16, 2009, 10:54:03 AM
All I am saying that I am surprised that we are talking that it will fail without even giving it a shot.
To me it really just depends on how sensitive and accurate the game camera is for the game. Do I see multi-player games at home being easily possible? Some yes, but not all.
Do I see a Wii Sports clone working perfectly with the technology, YES actually I do.
Do I see some sort of benefit and use with on rail shooters, even allowing for some advanced character interaction with the camera, yes I do.
Do I see a good football Quarterback simulation being designed, hell yeah, and it sounds sweet in my head.
Will games have to change to be designed for Natal yes...but games had to change to be designed for Wii, perhaps not as drastically but they still changed. Also just because Microsoft said no buttons does not mean no peripherals or controller additions of any kind. I can see a MS Wheel, MS Gun and such that will be designed for the camera to recognize. I can see some interesting games come out of this hardware.
Is it as good as the Wii? Hell no. But I think it would be interesting is the Wii 2 introduced this technology along with the Wiimote M+ Nunchuk combo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 16, 2009, 11:18:05 AM
I'll agree with you that it would be very VERY interesting to see the Wii sucessor use this type of tech along with a Wiimote+.
As for your other points, well.. honestly? C'mon, this whole thing is such a bigger risk that what Nintendo did with Wii its not even funny. We're taking about a machine from Nintendo, who know what they're doing most of the time, that made motion controlers its standard from day one and had games for the new market as well as the old in the pipeline from day one, all for a starting price of $250.
Then you've got MS who is doing Natal as an afterthought and as an attempt to take some of the new market from nintendo. They think casual gamers are too stupid to use buttons so they went with the most dumbed down thing they could do (and in turn made it MORE complicated for something as simple as a racing game...) and are asking for at least $200 for an xbox as well as the (rumoured) $200 for an as of yet un-proved peripheral with as of yet un-solid support line up.
Sorry, still skeptical but I'd love to be proven wrong. This type of tech is the stuff that'll bring us closer to VR, and thats something I hope we achieve in my lifetime dammit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BwrJim! on September 16, 2009, 11:22:56 AM
hey now, lets not forget that one day. when the project actually comes out, it will be old hat. Its kinda like the Halo story.. That game was close to 5 years old by the time they got it to market. I remember when it was the MAC dream game that was going to switch everything around for gaming on the mac (well at least until it got ported to a pc).
Natal if used correctly could be fun, but I think that tech should really be put off by 2 console releases. By that time, homes should have the 3d tvs in a much wider range across the US and natal would sync very nicely with that. A very close step to a holodeck like performance.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 16, 2009, 01:17:47 PM
Also just because Microsoft said no buttons does not mean no peripherals or controller additions of any kind. I can see a MS Wheel, MS Gun and such that will be designed for the camera to recognize. I can see some interesting games come out of this hardware.
I'm not really sure but I think Nintendo patented using the controller in a peripheral for a gaming console. a "controller shell".
Sony patented using "real-life" objects as the object in the game,
So anything MS releases would have to be it's own hardware and therefore more expensive. Unless they release cheap plastic toys to play Natal with, but I'm sure that violates one patent or the other.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 16, 2009, 01:46:28 PM
I really really really like the idea of Natal. It's an awesome piece of technology, but it's not a good fit for gaming. I can see myself using this to control a computer attached to the TV. In a Minority Report like fashion, I could swap through programs and edit images and video.
I think Colbert has the right idea about it and he's the one that loved the Wii. http://gamerblips.dailyradar.com/video/steven_colbert_on_project_natal_video/
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 16, 2009, 02:45:19 PM
1. I don't believe the technology will be that reliable. The wiimote can work in a pitch black room, so long as it can see the sensor bar. Natal will no doubt demand a large, well-lit area to play in, something that most homes just don't have.
2. Marathon gaming sessions won't be possible. If EVERY input has to be a gesture of some kind, you won't be able to enjoy the multiple hours of gaming that we all know and love. With the wii remote+chuk, you can actually sit in all kinds of positions that you can't with a standard controller because your hands no longer need to be glued together. You can even put your arm around someone while playing. All you need to do most of the time is push buttons with very little motion required (often none).
Natal steers gaming in a direction that would only further remove depth. It's a neat novelty to be able to pretend to throw a football and see your character throw a football on screen, but without actual force-feedback, it'll never be anything more than a novelty and you'll quickly find that most people would just prefer to sit down with a controller to play the damn game.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 16, 2009, 02:54:55 PM
1. I don't believe the technology will be that reliable. The wiimote can work in a pitch black room, so long as it can see the sensor bar. Natal will no doubt demand a large, well-lit area to play in, something that most homes just don't have.
2. Marathon gaming sessions won't be possible. If EVERY input has to be a gesture of some kind, you won't be able to enjoy the multiple hours of gaming that we all know and love. With the wii remote+chuk, you can actually sit in all kinds of positions that you can't with a standard controller because your hands no longer need to be glued together. You can even put your arm around someone while playing. All you need to do most of the time is push buttons with very little motion required (often none).
Natal steers gaming in a direction that would only further remove depth. It's a neat novelty to be able to pretend to throw a football and see your character throw a football on screen, but without actual force-feedback, it'll never be anything more than a novelty and you'll quickly find that most people would just prefer to sit down with a controller to play the damn game.
And at least the wiimote gives you rumble for some time of feedback?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 16, 2009, 03:15:58 PM
1. I don't believe the technology will be that reliable. The wiimote can work in a pitch black room, so long as it can see the sensor bar. Natal will no doubt demand a large, well-lit area to play in, something that most homes just don't have.
Actually I believe that Natal uses infrared for depth perception and movement capture so the lighting of the room doesn't actually matter.
But every other point stands.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 16, 2009, 03:16:53 PM
The main I am skeptic about Natal is because I have played camera based games before and they tend to have a lot of issues, from body recognition to lighting issues. Natal is basically one HUGE camera game dependent on body motions for action to happen on screen. The setup is going to be key in creating a solid experience. From the demos it seems Natal has issues recognizing skin color, hair and such, and every time it is demoed it is shown in a very lit room. If the player has to setup the game each time they want to play them what's the point?
Not to mention that some of the ideas mentioned are very, very silly and will likely never happen. For example, the clothing demo is silly because Natal would have to scan your body in all angles so it can create a perfect paper doll of yourself, then be able to digitally put the clothes on you and make them fit perfectly. Not to mention that, like Malstrom mentioned once, I doubt any clothing company would bother scanning all of their collections for a novelty.
Then there's the whole Milo project, which is extremely pretentious and I KNOW will be a disappointment in the end.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 16, 2009, 03:44:16 PM
1. I don't believe the technology will be that reliable. The wiimote can work in a pitch black room, so long as it can see the sensor bar. Natal will no doubt demand a large, well-lit area to play in, something that most homes just don't have.
Actually I believe that Natal uses infrared for depth perception and movement capture so the lighting of the room doesn't actually matter.
But every other point stands.
Are you sure? Last I heard, Natal had problems identifying people with darker skin, meaning that not only is Natal racist, but it suggests that it uses visible light instead of infrared.
That would also mean that ONE infrared source in the room would throw it off. What if there's sunlight coming in a window behind you (no shade will keep 100% of it out) or you play with a lamp behind you?
I admit, I haven't kept up with how exactly it works, but it sounds like it's going to be difficult to create an ideal situation for it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 16, 2009, 04:10:42 PM
You could be right, but i remember vaguely some MS person saying something about infrared camera and making the lighting of the room immaterial. Supposedly the camera uses several different light spectrum's to see and that's why a separate CPU was needed. It's supposedly why the tech is supposedly so expensive.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on September 16, 2009, 04:12:26 PM
Natal is nice because it's not a rehashed gamepad, doesn't support mouse & keyboard, and has no C-Stick.
I hope Microsoft throws their entire weight behind it, making its crash all the more juicy while sacrificing the existing Xbox platform and audience in the process.
If it helps to further drive non-casual gaming and its gamers and press into extinction, I condone it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on September 16, 2009, 08:33:14 PM
Yes, we need idiots to make fun of. DON'T DO IT MICROSOFT!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 17, 2009, 02:53:11 AM
I recall the infrared talk being speculation because MS bought a company that had it but they stated themselves that they looked at the tech but didn't use it for Natal.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 17, 2009, 08:05:02 AM
After our meeting, we actually had a chance to speak with another source who was able to show us the software guts behind the Natal, so that we could understand the method by which tracking is done. The box uses two sensors for input: a video camera, and an infrared camera (that light you see in the press photo is either power, or some part of the IR setup). The infrared data is used to gauge depth and the video camera movement, but it's the software Microsoft has developed which is really doing the magic. We were shown an example of the raw output of the system, which melds the two sources and then breaks them down into a wireframe of objects, a heatmap (for depth), and a point-map (which is akin to one of those hand imprint needle toys). The software merges all of this together to create a picture of movement in the room, allowing for some pretty crazy detail of what is going on.
Wrong? The demos I played of Natal were set up in dimly-lit hotel rooms, except for Peter Molyneux's Milo demo which was set in a bright room. Tsunoda said lighting was a non-issue for Natal. Maybe so, maybe not. But if it works in a dim room, that's not bad.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 17, 2009, 08:40:35 AM
Don't worry, half of that will be cut for cost reasons if Natal finally gets released.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 17, 2009, 08:42:51 AM
But that is the core functionality of the tech. if they get rid of that(the IR sensor), then all you have is an eyetoy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Spak-Spang on September 17, 2009, 10:34:41 AM
Actually, it sounds like it would be really hard to program all this, unless the programming software and middleware is just amazing.
Oh well...I will be excited to see what comes of this. The reality is that Microsoft might just delay and delay this until it becomes their next system and is built in to every unit. That would be the smartest choice Microsoft can make.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 17, 2009, 12:23:43 PM
Microsoft put itself in a rut.
If they release it now, they will segment their base and the steep cost of the product will surely keep non-gamers away.
If they release later, they will look like idiots (smart idiots albeit), but even more dastardly, is that the Wii 2 will provided even stiffer competition. I expect the Wii 2 to NOT be a rehash of hardware and provide HD and a competent online system. It'll also have an even more precise wiimote and nunchuck and possibly some other tech that's being developed as we speak.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on September 17, 2009, 01:16:31 PM
The Wii 2 will be something we cannot even imagine yet. If MS comes out with motion tech by then they'll be another step behind.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 17, 2009, 02:49:13 PM
The Wii 2 will be something we cannot even imagine yet. If MS comes out with motion tech by then they'll be another step behind.
Nintendo's strategy all along? Come outta the gates with "underpowered" hardware but fancy tech motion control input method, dominate then lure the competition into non-competing the next race around by making them play catch up with their own fancy tech, by the time the next race comes around and Xbox/PS3 are trying to match the wii's feature, Nintendo sweeps EVERYTHING from under their feet.
Genious..?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 17, 2009, 04:00:01 PM
it only works if MS & Sony shy away from multiplying processing power on a tower Ram to focus on incorporating their already revealed motion controls to rival Wii's already proven approach.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Smash_Brother on September 17, 2009, 05:13:56 PM
After our meeting, we actually had a chance to speak with another source who was able to show us the software guts behind the Natal, so that we could understand the method by which tracking is done. The box uses two sensors for input: a video camera, and an infrared camera (that light you see in the press photo is either power, or some part of the IR setup). The infrared data is used to gauge depth and the video camera movement, but it's the software Microsoft has developed which is really doing the magic. We were shown an example of the raw output of the system, which melds the two sources and then breaks them down into a wireframe of objects, a heatmap (for depth), and a point-map (which is akin to one of those hand imprint needle toys). The software merges all of this together to create a picture of movement in the room, allowing for some pretty crazy detail of what is going on.
Wrong? The demos I played of Natal were set up in dimly-lit hotel rooms, except for Peter Molyneux's Milo demo which was set in a bright room. Tsunoda said lighting was a non-issue for Natal. Maybe so, maybe not. But if it works in a dim room, that's not bad.
It still sounds like sunlight will cripple the thing...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on September 17, 2009, 05:21:18 PM
Quote
I am kinda shocked that everyone at the Nintendo website is talking like this honestly. I remember when Nintendo first unveiled the Wiimote and people were shocked and upset about the new controller. If I remember correctly the very first introduction didn't even show the Wii Nunchuk so we had no idea how it would play traditional games and we were dumb founded how games would be played on the system.
There was even hype from developers that didn't totally understand the hardware jumping on the bandwagon. In the end, Nintendo proved to have more up their sleeve with the technology and the Wii remote and its accessories worked beautifully. All we know right now is the Natal tech demo stuff and what has been shown. There may be a type of controller with the system in the end, or the technology may really work where you don't need a controller at all.
The point is any innovation in gaming is a good thing, and we should celebrate it.
I personally disagree that any innovation in gaming is a good thing. It has to improve gaming in some way, not just be innovative. There all sorts of creative things that could be done but would make playing a game a huge pain in the ass.
I don't have any optimistism for Natal largely because of who is in charge. Nintendo has a considerably better track record for introducing new ideas. Microsoft does not have that reputation. This, to me, looks like "we need some way to combat the Wii remote". That's not a plan, it's a kneejerk reaction. Microsoft is doing this because they're scrambling, not because they have some brilliant vision.
And I'm not even very impressed with the remote at all. Motion control, to me, seems like a silly novelty that sounded cool in science fiction but is frustratingly limited and inaccurate in real life. Nintendo, the masters of innovation, and the company that actually made this motion control stuff a HUGE success, can't even make a tennis game use this tech without preventing the player from moving the character. Either the proper technology isn't here yet or the whole damn concept is hopelessly restrictive.
So MS is taking an idea that I already think is lame and making it MORE restrictive. I cannot see any improvement on the concept other than the bullet point "no controller". Can't stand it when the remote misinterprets your gesture? How accurate do you think THIS is going to be? I know this won't apply to everyone but, for me, I couldn't even fake interest in this. Natal will SUCK.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 17, 2009, 05:33:29 PM
Quote
Nintendo, the masters of innovation, and the company that actually made this motion control stuff a HUGE success, can't even make a tennis game use this tech without preventing the player from moving the character. Either the proper technology isn't here yet or the whole damn concept is hopelessly restrictive.
I think maybe you should play some of the games made for Wii before you start criticizing what has and what hasn't been done. Grand Slam Tennis and Virtual tennis 2009 both allow you to control your character while using M+ motion controls and it works fine once you get used to it. The reason Nintendo hasn't done it yet is because the only Tennis game they have made this generation is WiiSports and that was meant as an entry title introducing you to the motion controls. The only other Nintendo Tennis game is a new play control Mario Power Tennis or whatever it was called. Old game with waggle support.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on September 17, 2009, 06:21:17 PM
Dude, Ian maybe has three games for wii, I swear. Mario Galaxy, Wiisports and Wiiplay.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: DAaaMan64 on September 18, 2009, 04:20:53 AM
More importantly it's Microsoft this entire generation we're talking about, they have a tendency to overpromise and underdeliver just to kill off a competing product with hype about what "will be", once the job is done the advertised product is either frozen eternally or stripped down massively.
Fixed for real truth. Nintendo, Sony, MS the lot. I remember the dreams we had when Wiinus game out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 18, 2009, 12:00:01 PM
The wiinus has more than satisfied me.
Title: Kojima Says...
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 26, 2009, 07:48:04 PM
Kojima Says, "Does my money hat match my money suit?" (http://themindchannel.blogspot.com/2009/09/kojima-natal-will-start-revolution.html)
Quote
Microsoft organized a panel with some of the biggest japanese game creators to talk about Project Natal. Metal Gear Solid mastermind Hideo Kojima gave high praise to the technology saying that " we are going to see the same sort of revolution of going from 2D games to 3D games with the move to Natal ".
Here's what Kojima had to say about Project Natal :
" Kojima was absolutely blown away when he saw it. Takahashi claimed that he thought Kojima almost fainted when he saw it "
" Kojima said that he really wanted to be here because he believe in the possibilities of the controller -- he said it has the potential to really change the lifestyle of gamers. he said he wants to use natal in his games, but he's really more excited about seeing how Natal changes the lifestyle habits of gamers "
" Kojima said that Natal is going to raise the bar for game development "
" Kojima said we are going to see the same sort of revolution of going from 2D games to 3D games with the move to Natal "
" Kojima is now talking about how this is going to be a transitional stage -- for example, some gamers might not be able to accept trying to control a driving game with a pretend steering wheel in their hands "
" Kojima said that he wants to do stuff that incorporates all aspects of the Natal -- the camera, the voice, the motion control. He especially loves the face recognition possibilities. he said he would like to make a game kind of like AI "
" Kojima says he would love to use Natal to come out with a completely new game that no one has played before "
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 26, 2009, 08:32:19 PM
EasyCure says "So now we can be actors in his movies? Or will we still have to watch 90% of them?"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on September 26, 2009, 08:44:58 PM
Isn't it great how Sony and Microsoft get the benefit of the doubt that was denied to Nintendo when they basically created motion controls out of thin air in late 2005?
I'm gearing up for some pretty rank hypocrisy in the next few years.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on September 26, 2009, 09:28:22 PM
Isn't it great how Sony and Microsoft get the benefit of the doubt that was denied to Nintendo when they basically created motion controls out of thin air in late 2005?
I'm gearing up for some pretty rank hypocrisy in the next few years.
This is exactly why Nintendo will keep pulling out charts, graphs and retrospectives in their media briefings. "way back in 200X we were toying with ____ until we finally created the Wii and its revolutionary Wii Remote, which we released in 2006. It was obviously a step in the right direction because our competitors followed suit..."
sigh
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on September 27, 2009, 06:11:18 AM
Dude, Ian maybe has three games for wii, I swear. Mario Galaxy, Wiisports and Wiiplay.
That sums me up too, but im fairly optomistic when it comes to even waggle, after playing TP it was a joke to play the Gamecube version and I'm left handed. My biggest problem, batteries! I bought rechargable batteries but my brother and his wife nabbed them for their own uses and moved to Korea. I never saw the batteries again. $20 down the drain. I bought a Wiimote charger, but it was a piece of **** and I had to take it back for a refund. Thats the main reason I don't jump in and play much. I have to still beat Metroid Prime 3 :( I'm hoping Wii2 will have a decent method of recharging, and have comparable graphics. In the short term creating gc2.0 was a genius idea for profit, but long term it will become a detriment. Every System should be thought of as something new, and Nintendo realises that. There will be things Wii2 does that nobody else has thought up or things you wouldn't expect them to add. However, one might say im missing out on all the greatest games there are right now....but i think by the end of the generation I can binge on all the greats at bargain prices.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on September 27, 2009, 08:51:23 AM
I am extremely skeptical about this and still think it is either not going to come out or sent to die. Everybody talks but you don't see anything and I expect that to continue. At least the Sony wand is actually coming out sometime soon and they are demoing. Natal is still a dream that will probably not come out for another year at the least. I see it as a hype method to slow Sony down yet again.
If they actually put weight behind it my question is can Natal allow more than one person to play at a time? They show the pitstop "demo" but aside from that I haven't heard a thing. I can't imagine it not constantly screwing up with two or more people using it and the camera trying to pick up anything beyond the most basic movements. I don't even know if this could play Wii sports tennis because it would have to pick up the rotation of your hand. Those are small motions and don't effect depth. I would sometimes have trouble picking up the rotation when I'm watching someone.
If there is one thing people at NWR seem to know its that the game press and developers can't be trusted when they say they will support something or when they talk something up. Unless there is actual footage and gameplay shown it is hot air.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on September 27, 2009, 09:45:39 AM
Quote
If there is one thing people at NWR seem to know its that the game press and developers can't be trusted when they say they say they will support something or when they talk something up. Unless there is actual footage and gameplay shown it is hot air.
Hideo Kojima also went nuts for the Wiimote at first, saying stuff like "you did it! You've done it!" Or something of that ilk. Which was probably just a signal to Sony that his payoff needed to be bigger because, other than Solid Snake being in SSBB as free advertising for MGS4, Kojima hasn't done squat with Wii and it's almost like he's forgotten it existed.
And you are correct, the list is long of developers who thought the GC had good hardware and the Wii had "tremendous possibilities" that resulted in zero games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_pap64 on September 27, 2009, 06:10:37 PM
Dequello just mentioned something I was going to explain a bit.
Yes, MS may be bragging about its third party support for Natal, but let's look back at the Wii's launch. Nintendo also bragged about its third party support and how third parties were delighted by the Wii Remote.
While support is better now, back then what we had were ports of old PS2/GC games, me too Wii Sports clone and lots of mini game collections.
Just because these third parties are going gaga over Natal it doesn't mean that they will release something significant or that they will figure out the technology right away. Developers are STILL trying to figure out the Wii, which is more versatile and flexible than the Natal. Who's to say that the same won't happen with Natal? In fact Natal will be MORE demanding in controls, especially if MS expects developers to create non controller options.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on September 29, 2009, 01:07:02 AM
Well, one thing we can bank on showing up, third party rabbits.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2009, 03:23:09 PM
First real Natal compatible game confirmed? (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/05/natal-in-fable-3-hinted-by-a-paranoid-molyneux/)
Quote
In an interview with Joystiq, Microsoft's Phil Spencer said he wouldn't be surprised to see Project Natal integration in Fable 3. Another person who wouldn't be surprised? The guy in charge of Fable 3. Peter Molyneux told Game Kings that he was "leaving the most exciting gameplay stuff for later." He then added, "I am going to say it's going to use a controller, but I've never said it's not going to use Natal."
"And obviously what would probably happen if I started talking about this is you would see a little red dot appear moving on my forehead," Molyneux continued. "And then as I would start to speak the words then there would be a shotgun fire, and I would be assassinated. Quite clearly, it is that sensitive." But not so sensitive that he can't quite nearly confirm it in the next breath.
"Do you really think, knowing me, as maybe you do over the years, I wouldn't want to use something like Natal? I mean, that's just mad, man." Let's just lay it out here: The guy responsible for basically the only known Natal project is going to put some Natal segments in Fable 3. We all know this. It's going to happen. Try to look surprised when it's announced at whichever trade show next year.
Who's ever heard of a shotgun with a laser sight?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: vudu on October 05, 2009, 03:58:32 PM
First real Natal compatible game confirmed? (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/05/natal-in-fable-3-hinted-by-a-paranoid-molyneux/)
Quote
In an interview with Joystiq, Microsoft's Phil Spencer said he wouldn't be surprised to see Project Natal integration in Fable 3. Another person who wouldn't be surprised? The guy in charge of Fable 3. Peter Molyneux told Game Kings that he was "leaving the most exciting gameplay stuff for later." He then added, "I am going to say it's going to use a controller, but I've never said it's not going to use Natal."
"And obviously what would probably happen if I started talking about this is you would see a little red dot appear moving on my forehead," Molyneux continued. "And then as I would start to speak the words then there would be a shotgun fire, and I would be assassinated. Quite clearly, it is that sensitive." But not so sensitive that he can't quite nearly confirm it in the next breath.
"Do you really think, knowing me, as maybe you do over the years, I wouldn't want to use something like Natal? I mean, that's just mad, man." Let's just lay it out here: The guy responsible for basically the only known Natal project is going to put some Natal segments in Fable 3. We all know this. It's going to happen. Try to look surprised when it's announced at whichever trade show next year.
Who's ever heard of a shotgun with a laser sight?
it'd be pretty tight if it had multiple sights that could predict where the shells would spread to.. just sayin.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2009, 07:53:50 PM
or a bunch of little lasers to show where all the buck shot goes. Someone would freak out and think there were a squad of trained snipers about to take them out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 05, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Laser shotgun, duh. It shoots lasershots.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on October 06, 2009, 02:37:51 AM
I think MS isn't really as tight as Nintendo on information, MS benefits from early hype for their products, Nintendo suffers because leaks give competitors time to steal their ideas. MS has nothing worth stealing
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 06, 2009, 06:47:14 PM
Quote:
"Powerglove at least kept the car on the road…"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on October 06, 2009, 06:53:20 PM
I'm telling you, if you could some how integrate this technology INTO or better yet INSIDE a screen, it would be incredibly useful.
But for gaming? I just don't see it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on October 06, 2009, 07:52:18 PM
I think MS isn't really as tight as Nintendo on information, MS benefits from early hype for their products, Nintendo suffers because leaks give competitors time to steal their ideas and people will bitch about it because it's made by Nintendo. MS has nothing worth stealing
Fixed for honesty.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 06, 2009, 08:55:40 PM
From where? From anyone that understands history.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on October 07, 2009, 10:58:29 PM
Now they they have the tech, Nintendo should revamp Rad Racer with a new enhanced Power Glove. Now that's a peripheral I would buy!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 08, 2009, 12:01:40 AM
There's a set of "Wii Boxing Gloves" you can buy where you can insert the Wii Remote over your fists. That should do plenty for everyone. If you angle it right, Mario Kart might work.
For those seeking to replicate that guy's haircut and jacket from The Wizard, good luck.
Title: MS's Project Natal - No need to find your remote!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 09, 2009, 04:28:14 PM
Mark Rein on Natal FPSers: "Why say a command out loud when you can make ridiculous hand gestures while taking your hand off the controller repeatedly!" (http://www.oxm.co.uk/article.php?id=14296) - (paraphrase)
Quote from: OXM
Team Xbox: Are you currently focusing on allowing your licensees to use Natal better, or have your studios had any time to start experimenting with the dev kits? Mark Rein:Actually, we're just sitting down with them in the next two weeks I think, to bring our studio guys in to have a look. I have no idea what we're going to do from a game standpoint, but from an engine standpoint, it's definitely cool stuff and we will support it. I think any future Xbox games we make will have some Natal support. We always want to have something that exploits the unique capabilities of a platform.
[...]
Team Xbox: Do you think Natal has applications for traditional hardcore games, such as Gears of War or Halo? Mark Rein: Yeah, I can totally see myself sitting in front of my TV using Natal to play games like Gears of War, Call of Duty, or whatever first-person shooter with my buddies. I want to do a hand signal that tells my friend, "Go over there." Instead of even saying it on Live, I just want to motion, "Go over there." Or if I want to throw a grenade, I just lift my right hand off the controller, throw the grenade, then put my hand back on the controller.
[...]
Team Xbox: And your hand will never run out of batteries either... Mark Rein:Exactly, no need to find your remote. And it has voice activation too, so "TV on", "TV off", "Last.fm", "Twitter", whatever, just tell it commands and it will do each one. That's pretty cool too. And you know, I think they said they were going to ship Natal with every Xbox when they actually launch the thing, so everybody will have one. And then they are going to sell it to everybody who doesn't have one. Or try.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 09, 2009, 04:46:21 PM
So I will wave my hand to flag my teammate to "go over there"... causing my in-game avatar to jump into an incoming rocket.
I like where technology is taking us.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 15, 2009, 05:15:20 PM
Nintendo Leads, Sony Copies, Microsoft Follows (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/15/microsoft-discusses-wii-esque-project-natal-brandin) this article has nothing to do with Sony
Quote
While we may be nervous about Microsoft's Project Natal branding strategy -- remember, that's just a codename -- the suits in Redmond share no such concern. That's because the Natal project is following Nintendo's lead in more ways than just easy-to-play, motion-based technology. It's also following Nintendo's branding strategy.
On May 11, 2004 Nintendo president Satoru Iwata announced the "Nintendo Revolution" to the E3 audience and, while he didn't show off the motion-based controller (we wouldn't see that for another sixteen months, at TGS 2005), he did promise "an unprecedented gameplay experience." The Revolution would offer "something no other machine has delivered before." The following May, over two years after first announcing the "Revolution," Nintendo revealed the product's final name just before E3: Wii.
When we asked Microsoft's Robbie Bach, "When can we stop calling it Natal?" at a recent Open House event, the exec wasn't shy about comparing the company's strategy to Nintendo's. "When Nintendo came out with the name 'Wii,' people sort of said 'Oh gosh, that's kind of a goofy, weird name.' I haven't heard a comment about it being a goofy name since the week after they announced the name," Bach said. "And suddenly, people just called it the 'Wii' and moved on." And, specifically, they've moved on to buying them en masse.
At this year's E3, just after Microsoft unveiled Natal, we heard a similar message from Albert Penello, director of global marketing for Xbox. "The gaming community that's paying attention at E3, they follow this stuff so closely I'm not worried about confusing them," Penello told Joystiq. "The guys who are actually going to buy this -- the mass consumer, if you will, that doesn't pay attention to this -- they have a three to six month attention span. So I'm not worried at all."
With Nintendo's successful (albeit enormously unorthodox) rebranding serving as a guide, Bach said, "I think whatever we decide to call Natal will become the name quickly." With a rumored fall launch (just like the Wii), and a "three to six month attention span" to take into account, one might expect to hear the real name for Project Natal somewhere around E3 this year. Or perhaps a little bit earlier, just like the Wii.
So should we start guessing at what ridiculous sounding name MS is gonna come up with to garner attention like the name "Wii" did when it was first announced?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: vudu on October 15, 2009, 05:26:54 PM
MOOV
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 15, 2009, 05:32:59 PM
VVii
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: oohhboy on October 16, 2009, 12:12:07 AM
Shiit
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 16, 2009, 01:37:34 AM
MS Natal & Sony Sphere Price Predicted by Pachter (http://www.joystiq.com/2009/10/15/pachter-project-natal-will-cost-50-sphere-will-be-over-100/)
Quote
Over at IndustryGamers, everyone's favorite video game predicterer (we're still working on that one) Michael Pachter has taken the reigns of the site and offers his own extensive diatribe on the future of Sony and Microsoft's upcoming new tech: Project Natal and the PlayStation Motion Controller (rumored to be called Sphere). Pachter's assertion is that price will be Natal's biggest selling point and Microsoft will try to expand upon its market of established Xbox 360 owners by offering the device for $50. For Sony's doodad, Pachter says the company is "trying to create an answer to the success of the Wii."
Pachter even likens the future state of a Natal-enabled Xbox 360 to the current state of the iPhone -- with features like Twitter, Netflix, Last.fm and Facebook inside Microsoft's box and its intuitive inteface, he says casual or non-playing members of Xbox 360 households will become interested. And then when it's bundled with all new Xbox 360s, he says that'll expand Microsoft's reach even more.
The PlayStation Motion Controller has a steeper hill to climb up to release, as Pachter notes his belief that more hardware will cause Sony to demand more cash for the set-up. He predicts the price will be over $100, though stresses that both Microsoft and Sony need to keep "the consumer's cost relatively low in order to achieve broad penetration." We'd tell you to get your mind out of the gutter, but we know it's already in one -- pervert.
I doubt it's gonna retail for $50 and that surely isn't coming with any games.
As for Sony Sphere..... not the best name, but why ignore the obvious. Might as well acknowledge the giant glowing balls and make it a feature.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on October 16, 2009, 02:13:19 AM
I expect them to keep the X in there somewhere.
The Xeev.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on October 16, 2009, 10:45:28 AM
they'll title it "jump" and get more of thos stupid "jump in" commercials out there, this time with people literally jumping.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on October 16, 2009, 02:40:38 PM
That would suck....unless they had this playing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-K3irNgcaA
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on October 16, 2009, 04:49:13 PM
Rare: Natal can create any experience[/url] After working with the motion control system for the best part of a year, the head of design at Rare has described Natal as a "massive ocean of possibilities"
George Andreas spoke to games™ during the magazine's exclusive trip to the Rare's studio in Twycross. Discussing the advantages of working with Natal over traditional game controllers, the developer said: “When you work on a conventional controller you reach the limitations of that very, very quickly. From a design perspective you know what it does, you know what the buttons do, and you know how you’re going to interact with the software."
"The thing that I’ve personally seen over the last nine or ten months working closely with Natal is that boundary just isn’t anywhere in sight yet. It’s a massive ocean of possibilities and it really is going to open up the mind. At the moment we haven’t got anywhere near the limitations of what that hardware will be able to bring to entertainment in the future.” “It's a massive ocean of possibilities and it really is going to open up the mind”
With a special edition of Resident Evil 5 due to debut for Sony's motion controller, there's been plenty of speculation over the game genres best suited to the technology - Andreas believes any associations are just in the mind however: “With a great development team you should be able to create any game experience with Natal,” he adds.
I say either Rare has some PHENOMENAL software coming up for Natal or they are politely asking us to spread out butt cheeks so that they can blow some smoke up our asses.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on October 21, 2009, 05:10:08 PM
It's still impossible for 2 players to play 1-on-1 tennis together on that thing, correct?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 21, 2009, 05:18:59 PM
I say either Rare has some PHENOMENAL software coming up for Natal or they are politely asking us to spread out butt cheeks so that they can blow some smoke up our asses.
Don't keep em spread too long cause Microsoft smokes about 10 packs a day.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 27, 2009, 11:51:13 PM
Microsoft Sees 'Natal' as Your Next TV Remote (http://tech.yahoo.com/news/zd/20091118/tc_zd/246199)
Quote
It's entirely possible, and reasonable, that the controllerless Project Natal technology Microsoft is developing will replace a remote control on Xbox 360-powered TVs, Marc Whitten, the general manager responsible for Microsoft's Xbox Live service, told attendees at the Streaming Media West show.
Whitten highlighted four areas – content, community, curation, and control – governing the evolution of the television and video content.
"I don't believe we are currently in the golden age of the television or the golden age of the game console or the golden age of the Internet; frankly, five years from now I don't know that you'll be able to tell the difference between those worlds," Whitten said.
Not surprisingly, Whitten used his talk to highlight recent additions to the Xbox 360 platform. With Netflix running on top of Xbox Live, consumers and gamers alike have access to hundreds of thousands of movies. Whitten called the shift between the Xbox 360 as a gaming platform and its evolution to a video platform as the "biggest surprise" of his job. [...] "The context is not 1 billion channels, but one," Whitten said. "One channel, with what I want, when I want it."
And as Microsoft and its partners become more sophisticated about trying to determine what content users will be interested in, the methods of controlling or providing input to that content will become more sophisticated.
"With the flick of my wrist I can change a channel," Whitten said. "With the power of my voice I can start a movie."
Watching a movie is a passive input, but a TV should understand what you're trying to do, Whitten added. "Laughter is an input," he said. "Yelling at the TV when I know an answer on 'Jeopardy' is an input. Attention is an input. The number of people in the room at one time is an input."
Microsoft's goal is to make it easy and simple to find the content consumers want, and to share it with friends, Whitten said, and to enable experiences they care about. "It won't be a remote control" that consumers use," Whitten said. "A remote control is already too hard."
Instead, Whitten said he envisions a future where Natal recognizes the users in the room, and their voices as well. Knowing the identity of the users will coalesce the content they're interested in, and allow one of multiple users to control the interface. (In one recorded demonstration, Natal picked up on a user's voice to control a game.)
"I believe that this will be the largest leap of TV experience since the remote control," Whitten said of Natal.
This probably explains why all those people were leaving Rare, they ain't workin on games no more. They are focusing outside of games and what they are working on might turn out to be a pretty cool gimmick 5-10 years in the future.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on November 28, 2009, 01:07:22 AM
What an absolute shame to hear about Rare. They suffered quality output during the last gen (and PD Zero was stupid as hell), but their last few games (keyword: few) had the charm and quality.
Pity.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 28, 2009, 02:15:41 AM
this might be more reason to leave Rare, but atleast they may be working on a game.
Now, it seems that Killer Instinct may well be coming back – but not in the way you might expect.
In the new issue of Games TM, an excellent Rare studio feature contains a box out on the Killer Instinct franchise, in which Mark Betteridge reaffirms that Killer Instinct is an IP “near and dear to us”.
The real eyebrow raiser comes as he goes on to say: “It’s about timing, and it’s about the opportunity creatively and gameplay-wise that it would offer. Street Fighter IV looked great and they’ve done a great job, and I’m a big fan of those products, but with KI we want to do something different rather than go back into that arena.”
And then the money shot: “I think it’s about doing something different than with a conventional controller.”
George Andreas, head of design at Rare, also says that the challenge will be about making KI for “the masses”, and the magazine itself goes on to conclude: “Unfortunately, fans will have to wait until Natal hits the market before they discover if that question is to remain unanswered.”
Killer Instinct 3? We hope so. For Natal? Hmmm…
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 28, 2009, 10:19:54 PM
That would be retarded. KI's main strength is that it is *NOT* a game for the masses.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on November 29, 2009, 09:36:36 PM
Would any of Rare's non-Nintendo games work with Natal?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: N-World on November 30, 2009, 01:15:54 AM
The only one I can think of is Battletoads. Imagine throwing live punches and kicks to beat up enemies.
Banjo-Kazooie would probably not work, unless you wanted to squat over and pretend you're shooting eggs from your rear.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on November 30, 2009, 11:48:30 AM
That would be absolutely hilarious.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on November 30, 2009, 12:12:12 PM
Conker's Bad Fur Day could work....well if you don't mind pissing on your floor.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on November 30, 2009, 12:42:52 PM
Quote
"It won't be a remote control" that consumers use," Whitten said. "A remote control is already too hard."
A remote is too hard? Even Nintendo at their most patronizing "everyone-is-too-stupid-to-do-anything" worst isn't that bad. Is that just meant to be a shot at the Wii? Is this the new marketing tactic - accusing your competition of offering a solution that is too complicated and just generally treating everyone like an idiot? "OUR controller is the most dumbed down for your simpleton mind to understand... er I mean... Natal game good!"
Sad that Rare might want to make Killer Instinct 3 for the Sega Activator.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 30, 2009, 12:49:21 PM
This arrogance is similar to Sony's arrogance when they entered into this generation and they basically said their fans were morons and would buy the system no matter what the price was. Well, they were wrong, now weren't they?
Similarly, MS is showing this arrogance now, but what happens when this product flops?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: GearBoxClock on November 30, 2009, 12:58:01 PM
Man, is it jut me or does it seem that the two High-End consoles attract a lot of arrogance from both developers and fans?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on November 30, 2009, 03:27:28 PM
Their arrogance gets the backlash called "employee layoffs" and "bankrupty" from "high end HD project".
Fans, on the other hand, do not suffer any sort of backlash.
Quote
A remote is too hard?
80% of third excuse makers cannot grasp the concept in their tiny little brains after it's been on the market for THREE YEARS. This type of failure is not humorous, it's facepalm-worthy.
Quote
Even Nintendo at their most patronizing "everyone-is-too-stupid-to-do-anything" worst isn't that bad.
I think Nintendo has embraced the fact that their "hardcorez" audience is all talk and nothing else. At least, I hope so... :(
Quote
Is that just meant to be a shot at the Wii? Is this the new marketing tactic - accusing your competition of offering a solution that is too complicated and just generally treating everyone like an idiot?
This type of PR assery has been around long before Highly Dramatic trolling. Sega did it during the SNES generation and created the famous "We can do what Nintendon't".
Quote
Similarly, MS is showing this arrogance now, but what happens when this product flops?
Internet memes are a go!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 01, 2009, 07:05:58 PM
memes huh?
can't wait to see people roundhouse kicking their HD tv's!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 02, 2009, 11:01:32 AM
The glory of Highly Dramatic stupidity.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 02, 2009, 12:16:49 PM
i can just picture the "news article now"
Quote
It was another ordinay christmas for the Stupidson family; relatives were over for dinner, kids were giddy to open their presents underneath the brightly decorated christmas tree, that is until someone wound up in the hospital.
Peter Stupidson, father of two children and husband to Mary Stupidson was admited to Pwnageville Hospital this past holiday when he suffered a severe electric shock from kicking in his new High Definition television set, which was actually a gift from his wife Mary. Ironically it was the gifts they bought for their two sons together that was at fault for this incident.
Billy and Bobby Stupidson, both A average students in school, had very short christmas list this year; one wanted the Killer Instinct 3 video game and the other, the new Natal motion sensing video game system from Nintendo, so they could share the two when playing their Microsoft Xbox.
"My kids are always well behaved, and they get straight A's in school all the time so me and [my husband] knew we had no choice but to get them what they wanted for christmas this year" said Mary Stupidson. "It did make shopping a lot easier.. and it was more an incentive to convince my wife to get me that HD tv i've always wanted" adds Peter. The family told HBC news that everything was that of a normal christmas day in their househould, after having such a big dinner Billy and Bobby convinced their parents to play their latest high tech game with them, using the ploy that it'd help them burn off the calories.
"I knew the game needed me to be physical in order to play" says Peter, "but i had no idea it was so physically demanding! I was amazed at how as i threw punches, the man on tv would throw them too. I got a little carried away i guess..." Peter did get carried away, in an ambulance on his way to the ER when he accidentaly kicked his new television set, causing it to fall off the wall mount and pin him to the floor while also electrocuting him.
The Stupidson family is hoping for a speedy recovery, so that dad can be home in time for new years. When asked if they'd go for another round of 'Killer Instinct 3' video game, Mary had this to say; "No thanks, Peter and I will go back to playing our kids Nintendo Playstation 3; the most we get from that are sore thumbs or cramped hands"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 02, 2009, 01:26:34 PM
The sad fact is this is what normal news media outlets would write.
We are getting pretty good at making mock news stories. I think we've already mastered IGN game reviews though.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 02, 2009, 01:31:32 PM
i'm glad you read it, i took too long trying to get it sound JUST right.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 02, 2009, 02:23:02 PM
It sounds legit and that makes it all the funnier.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 02, 2009, 02:41:19 PM
i'm glad you read it, i took too long trying to get it sound JUST right.
I can understand that. I tried to attempt to make a mock IGN review, but I don't think my brain can drop so many IQ points in order to make something like that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: GearBoxClock on December 02, 2009, 03:27:33 PM
Why is it that most "Hardcore" gaming review sites are Xbox Fanboys, and most News outlets are moronic and couldn't tell the difference between a NES and a N64 *Cough*FOX*Cough*?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 02, 2009, 03:47:53 PM
i'm glad you read it, i took too long trying to get it sound JUST right.
I can understand that. I tried to attempt to make a mock IGN review, but I don't think my brain can drop so many IQ points in order to make something like that.
i think i remember reading that (if you posted it here) and my brain hurt just trying to read it.. i can't imagine trying to emulate it.
Why is it that most "Hardcore" gaming review sites are Xbox Fanboys, and most News outlets are moronic and couldn't tell the difference between a NES and a N64 *Cough*FOX*Cough*?
because the xbox fanboys grew up in a generation where there were video games, fox news correspondents had hula hoops and ball and paddles?
Oh and the term "hardcore news sites" make me think of a bunch of frat boys hanging out trying to run a news site, taking drinks everytime they're editing a story and come across a typo or playing other games.. like how fast can you right an article and how many insults can you throw in there.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 02, 2009, 04:29:27 PM
HIGH FIVE, SERIOUS GAMER WRITERS
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on December 02, 2009, 07:17:40 PM
Oh and the term "hardcore news sites" make me think of a bunch of frat boys hanging out trying to run a news site, taking drinks everytime they're editing a story and come across a typo or playing other games.. like how fast can you right an article and how many insults can you throw in there.
The Japan Times (http://www.japantimes.co.jp), despite being a real newspaper with a fairly large circulation and a long history (founded 1897!) always struck me as being written by frat boys. I imagine this is because, being an English newspaper in Japan, they find it hard to find real journalists, and end up relying on the inebriated losers that make up most of the expatriate community...
Maybe it used to be better, back in the day.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Shorty McNostril on December 02, 2009, 11:06:42 PM
The kicker would have been a "Nintendo Playstation 360".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 02, 2009, 11:45:41 PM
Ugh...
Quote
EA's CEO wants Nintendo to make hardcore games more often. by *insert gaming media outlet slave here*
After the release of Dead Space: Extraction, EA's attempt to satisfy Nintendo's hardcore audience despite the fact it could have easily worked as a FPS, EA's CEO decides to troll for attention by saying that Nintendo needs to make more hardcore games. We, being the ignorant gaming media, outright agree with this statement because without trolling the web we won't get our money hats.
"Nintendo needs to make more hardcore games. Why? Because Dead Space: Extraction failed due to us dragging our asses and spouting PR bullshit. Hell, I'm doing it right now but I know I'm right because I am a big wig CEO." EA's CEO says. "Well Nintendo? Do something! Now excuse me, I'm going to lay off 1000 employees."
Despite high sales of family friendly affair, many third party efforts are selling below par not due to being mediocre at best but because the audience is not there. See that folks, we trolled the entire Wii fanbase! Now give us money because we need the internet hits!
I hate myself right now.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 03, 2009, 12:07:12 AM
That sort of thing is not healthy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 03, 2009, 12:32:35 PM
Trueblue needs to stand in front of a mirror and repeat those happy mantras
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 03, 2009, 01:07:04 PM
We need to make a month "Mock Gaming Media" centered.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on December 03, 2009, 01:33:13 PM
When I think of a hardcore media outlet, i think of someone having sex with 3 women and jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, taking a shot of whiskey on the way down, pulling out a jar with a tarantula and ripping out its legs, pulling the parachute cord, that failing, then gliding over to another airplane, holding on, and then while holding on typing a review for a game.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 03, 2009, 01:43:03 PM
"I don't normally drink, beer. But when I do, I drink DOS EQUIS."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on December 03, 2009, 02:19:00 PM
When I think of a hardcore media outlet, i think of someone having sex with 3 women and jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, taking a shot of whiskey on the way down, pulling out a jar with a tarantula and ripping out its legs, pulling the parachute cord, that failing, then gliding over to another airplane, holding on, and then while holding on typing a review for a game.
"NO OnLINE! THIS GAME FUCKIN' SUCKS"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 03, 2009, 02:37:33 PM
Which months and themes have already been taken? We need a "Mock Gaming Media" month. Seriously.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on December 03, 2009, 06:20:55 PM
When I think of a hardcore media outlet, i think of someone having sex with 3 hookers and jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, taking a shot of whiskey on the way down, pulling out a jar with a tarantula and ripping out its legs, pulling the parachute cord, that failing, then gliding over to another airplane, holding on, and then while holding on typing a review for a game.
fixed. "hardcore" game reviwers can't get sex unless its paid for.
Which months and themes have already been taken? We need a "Mock Gaming Media" month. Seriously.
we have a whole thread for it, we don't really need a month. a month would imply avatar changes and possibly trolling of talkback threads.
... on second thought..
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on December 03, 2009, 06:24:18 PM
Good point.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 22, 2009, 02:55:41 AM
Late to the Update, but Natal has some Lag Issues.
‘Natal lag issues will hurt game development’ (http://www.develop-online.net/news/33524/Natal-lag-issues-will-hurt-game-development)
Quote
Traveller’s Tales’ director Jon Burton fears that a controllerless UI will limit its flexibility for different genres and games.
Microsoft has invested significant money and time to ensure its upcoming motion controller Natal is as accomplished as its host console, yet suspected “lag issues” may curb the peripheral’s chances of success. That was the view offered by Traveller’s Tales company director Jon Burton, who told Develop that his own experience with the hands-free controller raised doubts.
“I was actually more impressed with Sony’s motion capture solution than Microsoft’s Natal,” he said as part of this week’s Develop Jury Service.
“[Natal is] exceedingly clever, but the lag on the input and lack of physical buttons is really going to restrict the kind of games that can be done with it,” he added, before going on to praise Sony’s (currently nameless) alternative.
“Sony’s solution will be cheap, accurate and will put buttons at your fingertips, meaning everything from action adventures to FPSes can be handled with the same input.”
Burton’s fear is that any controllerless device will struggle to achieve the level of immediacy and precision that’s found analogue sticks, buttons and mice. And, as such accuracy and fluidity is demanded by a vast number of games and genres, questions have been raised on which kind of games Natal will fit best with.
It has been suggested previously that the flexibility of Natal’s camera could allow for games where a controller and the Natal camera can be used together – a solution that could somewhat defeat the purpose of Natal itself.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Deguello on December 22, 2009, 11:41:20 AM
Well that doesn't sound good. Is it actually possible that UBISoft can find a way to make a worse game for the Natal than their worst for the Wii, just because of this technical issue?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on December 25, 2009, 11:16:07 PM
Anything Ubi comes up with is probably just as advanced (and as ambitious) as the Wiimote minigame in Rabbids Go Home, but starring Splinter Cell or Ass's Creed guys, not much more.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 07, 2010, 03:37:10 PM
Did anyone realize that CES has started already?
Project Natal is now Software based - no extra chip (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-drops-internal-natal-chip_1)
Quote
GamesIndustry.biz has learned that Microsoft has dropped a chip from its forthcoming Natal motion control system as the platform holder eyes accessible price points in the build-up to release later this year.
The chip, which was responsible for processing information for the Natal's 'bone system,' has been removed in favour of a software solution. [...] The load previously handled by the chip now falls on one of the main three Xenon processors, but while taking a "percentage" of performance away from the system, most games don't use up 100 per cent of the available processing power anyway. [...] "Patching up older games to run with the new hardware now looks rather unlikely unless they have the CPU time to spare, but hopefully this will serve to focus developers on Natal-specific concepts as opposed to revisiting old classics." [...] The removal of the chip almost guarantees that non-Natal games won't be patched to include motion control support, a point previously outlined by Microsoft Game Studios' Kudo Tsunoda.
edit: More info on how Natal works: http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/2010-01/exclusive-inside-microsofts-project-natal
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 07, 2010, 04:45:07 PM
Wait, wait a sec... Natal works?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 07, 2010, 04:49:16 PM
Yet another Malstrom prediction comes true. Natal is being stripped down from what it was shown at E3.
This was pretty obvious since the speculated price of Natal was through the roof.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 08, 2010, 02:18:24 AM
Not really that obvious, cuz there was once a time I thought a major console company wouldn't release a console at $600.
There's no room for "expections" in this business. So the reasonable course of action is to throw the expectations out the window.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on January 08, 2010, 02:28:52 AM
I just realized that this essentially makes all Natal games Natal only. If it takes up so much processing power little extras can't be added into new games much less patches on old games. It is also probably going to make all Natal games have Wii graphics or below.
Yet another Malstrom prediction comes true. Natal is being stripped down from what it was shown at E3.
This was pretty obvious since the speculated price of Natal was through the roof.
But the speculated price of Natal was also attached the the known hardware and extra CPU that was (at the time) required for the Natal experience. How was it obvious that MS was gonna ditch the extra CPU and go with a software(1core) only solution?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on January 08, 2010, 02:51:47 AM
But the speculated price of Natal was also attached the the known hardware and extra CPU that was (at the time) required for the Natal experience. How was it obvious that MS was gonna ditch the extra CPU and go with a software(1core) only solution?
What they exactly would do I wasn't sure but, at least to me, it was obvious they were going to have to gimp it somehow because of the expected price and the market they wanted to reach. As Ningurl said expectations that make sense don't make much sense with these companies right now so perhaps I got lucky.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Urkel on January 08, 2010, 04:35:45 AM
I just assumed they were going to sell it at a loss. It is Microsoft, after all.
Not being able to patch older games isn't much of a loss. It seems clear to me devs have no clue how to adapt it to existing games, anyway. Space Invaders Extreme played by lifting your arms to shoot? Geometry Wars played with Jazz Hands? Screw that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on January 08, 2010, 08:00:17 AM
One CPU is reserved for the OS, one for Natal... Not gonna leave a lot of power for those HD graphics.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 08, 2010, 11:46:42 AM
maybe they should have went with a different OS if even a windows kernal takes up a whole core of the CPU.
I think there is gonna be an Xbox 720 before too long, as some developers are gonna start dropping support and complaining about not having enough horsepower. Holiday 2011. I'm calling it right now.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on January 08, 2010, 02:13:08 PM
and if the tracking starts to slip, you can switch the infrared source into "high power" mode....
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 13, 2010, 12:53:08 AM
Capcom working on hardcore Natal project made from the ground up using an old franchise (http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/701811/Capcom-Working-On-Hardcore-Project-Natal-Game-Based-On-Old-Franchise-.html)
Quote
Outside of tech demonstrations and modifications of several existing Xbox 360 games, we haven't seen what Project Natal is capable of. Microsoft is keeping those games under wraps. But speaking with Capcom's VP of strategic planning and business development Christian Svensson at CES last week, I learned about Capcom's potentially ambitious plans for one Project Natal game.
"I can't talk about what we're doing on Natal right now yet because we haven't announced it, although we have announced that we're working on stuff," said Svensson, emphasizing his vagueness.
He was willing to tease a little more about one unannounced game, however.
"I think you'll see again a brand focus on what we're doing there [on Natal], perhaps a brand we haven't seen in a while," he said with a coy smile, as Capcom public relations eyeballed us. "That's exciting."
>>>Svensson did elaborate when pressed on whether it would be similar to Capcom's approach to Resident Evil 5 on PlayStation 3, which is getting updated to support Sony's upcoming motion controller. <<<
What we're doing is creating it from the ground up for Natal, in this case. But it's..." he said, pausing. "How do I describe this...it's created from the ground up for Natal. We're not looking at Natal as 'okay, here's a little Natal gimmick that we've worked into some existing game.'"
When I jokingly proposed a spin-off of mini-games set in the Resident Evil universe, he corrected me.
"That's not the plan," said Svensson.
"The approach is we're gonna make a 'gamers game' for Natal using something amongst our brand history," he continued. "I know [Mega Man creator and Capcom head of R&D Keiji] Inafune is really excited about it, he's been very vocal both in Japan and with the media about his vision of what Natal brings. I'm going to have to ask you to wait and see."
Microsoft announced Project Natal would be released during the holidays at CES, but Svensson made it clear to me that Capcom was not rushing this one out the door to meet that deadline.
"We're not going to be at launch, just to temper the expectations," he said. "We're gonna cook something and it's gonna to take a while to cook."
Let the speculation begin.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on January 13, 2010, 03:06:43 AM
A marketer's marketer, he is...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 13, 2010, 02:36:13 PM
ghouls n ghost EXTREME
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Peachylala on January 13, 2010, 09:14:16 PM
Oh yes, 'hardcore'...
Bionic Flopmando.
Have fun Capcom.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 17, 2010, 06:03:47 PM
It could be Street Fighter. It could not be Street Fighter.
Could be a disgrace to Mike Haggar's Final Fight.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 21, 2010, 03:31:46 PM
According to VG247 (http://www.vg247.com/2010/01/21/rumour-rare-working-on-natal-fitness-game/) (in a rather brilliant entry, I must say), the latest rumor is that Rare is working on, brace yourselves, “a fitness game for Natal. Like Microsoft’s version of Wii Fit.” Apparently, Rare have been “working on it for a good while,” as well as something else that we “can probably guess at.”Killer Instinct 3, perhaps?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 21, 2010, 06:10:27 PM
According to VG247 (http://www.vg247.com/2010/01/21/rumour-rare-working-on-natal-fitness-game/) (in a rather brilliant entry, I must say), the latest rumor is that Rare is working on, brace yourselves, “a fitness game for Natal. Like Microsoft’s version of Wii Fit.” Apparently, Rare have been “working on it for a good while,” as well as something else that we “can probably guess at.”Wii Sports Resort rip-off, perhaps?
Fixed. Way to go Rare, way to go.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: UltimatePartyBear on January 21, 2010, 06:29:28 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and predict Viva Piñata will be involved.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on January 22, 2010, 12:53:40 AM
How is Natal going to tell me I'm too fat? Will the body scan tell me I'm overweight? Since I'm 6'4" every measurement of bodymass has always told me I'm too fat despite that never being true.
I think some games will be improved over the balance board (anything that involves leaning left or right) but I don't see the tons of people who bought Wii Fit deciding they need another fitness game. It will have been out for over 2 years when this is released. That is like showing up to the party the next morning.
Every time Rare is working on something new people say Killer Instinct so I'm going to say no way.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 22, 2010, 01:06:51 AM
Rare keeps saying they want to make another Killer Instinct. Rare keeps leaving hints towards a another Killer Instinct. Supposedly it's MS that keeps saying no.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on January 22, 2010, 01:58:44 PM
I'm just gonna go ahead and predict Viva Piñata will be involved.
Murdering Piñatas with your bare hands?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on January 22, 2010, 06:31:24 PM
Boy... Rare is kinda pathetic these days...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 26, 2010, 02:41:17 PM
Iwata passed on Natal tech back in 2007 (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=232754)
Quote
Nintendo boss Satoru Iwata was offered the chance to sign up the device that became Project Natal - but turned it down as he didn't believe he could launch it at a mass-market price.
That's according to a top insider (and we mean top insider) at the platform holder's Japan HQ, who told us that Israel firm 3DV Systems showed an early demo of the technology to Iwata and other Nintendo bigwigs at the end of 2007.
Despite being impressed with the prototype, Iwata was reportedly unsold on it as a peripheral for Wii - leaving the door open for Microsoft to snap up the tech and its creator a year later.
"Iwata-San only ever invests in something he can guarantee will work for a Nintendo audience," the exec told us.
"3DV showed off a camera that detected motion in 3D, and had voice recognition - but Iwata-San was unconvinced he could sell it at a Nintendo price point. He also had some worries around latency during gameplay."
The new information appears to confirm 3DV's involvement in the creation of Natal, which Microsoft has never certified.
Microsoft first showed off Natal at E3 2009. - with Peter Molyneux in particular stunning the audience with boy-sim Milo.
"Honestly - I've heard Iwata describe the prototype he saw at length, and it's definitely Natal," added CVG's source.
"What we witnessed at E3 was smaller and the facial [reading] stuff had improved, but it's the same technology. We remain unconvinced Natal will deliver on the more sophisticated elements of what Microsoft is promising at the price they're aiming for."
Microsoft will no doubt internally disagree with the claims. MS has dubbed Natal a'new console' in itself. The hardware is set to launch late this year, with an expected price point of around £50.
Iwata's alleged belief that the device would be too expensive fits with recent reports that Microsoft removed a chip from Natal to save on R&D costs, whilst some prominent development figures have also questioned whether Natal will have potential latency issues. Nintendo's Shigeru Miyamoto has previously admitted: "This type of motion-sensing camera technology has been around for quite a while. [We've] ultimately made the decision not to take advantage of what they can do."
Unsurprisingly, both Nintendo UK and Microsoft would not offer us a comment on the "speculation". (Trust us, it ain't).
What do you reckon, readers - was Iwata right to say "no" to Natal? Or will he look back on the one that got away?
Supposedly Sony passed on the tech too right after Nintendo, but is MS to get burned twice by picking up something Nintendo decided they didn't want?
MS then put those 2 things together, so what do you think we will get?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on January 26, 2010, 02:50:46 PM
Grabbed By The Ghoulies: Motion Edition
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 26, 2010, 02:58:35 PM
What Iwata (and later Sony) rejected was the prototype. Of course there is likely to be some issues...
But, on THE OTHER HAND, let us never forget how crappy Microsoft products tend to be. You know how Windows is so plagued with problems and always has been? How Internet Exploder is the most unsecure browser there is? And how could any of us possibly forget the red rings of death on the 360.
So, considering MS's past record of shoddy fail-ridden products, is it at all unreasonable for one to be suspicious? Nintendo is well known for making quality products, so if they've turned something down you know it was probably for a good reason. Sony also turned it down. But then Microsoft, a company known for making software that crashes and consoles that burn in red rings of fire, embraces this.
So, I think that says it all folks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 26, 2010, 03:00:19 PM
What Iwata (and later Sony) rejected was the prototype. Of course there is likely to be some issues...
Iwata stated lag as a major concern. There are reports and video today of lag being a major concern. Seems like that is one issue that wasn't fixed from the prototype.
Cost was the other major concern. Iwata didn't feel he could bring it to market at a mass market price. MS has since removed the dedicated chip that was built into the camera. Apparently MS couldn't absorb the cost or reduce it to mass market price either, and this is 3 years later. Now they have basically dedicated 1 of the 3 cores on the 360 to processing camera work, and I'm sure that is not gonna help out the lag situation at all.
Can you just imagine what the Wii games would look like if Nintendo had to offload the camera processing to the Wii? It would be like DS games on the TV.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 26, 2010, 03:31:09 PM
There's a funny video that you can probably find on youtube of Bill Gates demonstrated before an audience the new (at the time) Windows 98 operating system, and the funny thing was it crashed right there in front of everyone into a blue screen of death. Can you imagine how embarassed he must have been?
I just think it would be really funny if at the next E3 or something Microsoft tries to demonstrate this thing in front of a huge group of people and then something goes horribly and embarassingly wrong. That's the sort of thing that becomes youtube worthy, and also meme worthy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 26, 2010, 03:51:04 PM
There's a funny video that you can probably find on youtube of Bill Gates demonstrated before an audience the new (at the time) Windows 98 operating system, and the funny thing was it crashed right there in front of everyone into a blue screen of death. Can you imagine how embarassed he must have been?
I just think it would be really funny if at the next E3 or something Microsoft tries to demonstrate this thing in front of a huge group of people and then something goes horribly and embarassingly wrong. That's the sort of thing that becomes youtube worthy, and also meme worthy.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/zvzcxi.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 27, 2010, 07:07:21 PM
Analysts see Project Natal adding billions to Microsoft's revenue (http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/01/analysts_see_project_natal_as_microsofts_next_billion-dollar_product.html) more like cost MS billions in revenue.
Quote
Video-game enthusiasts are looking forward to the release of Microsoft's motion-sensitive video-game control system, code-named "Project Natal," later this year. Maybe investors should be doing the same.
That's the underlying message in an analysis of Project Natal issued this morning by Sarah Friar and Derek Bingham of Goldman Sachs. The analysts make a series of assumptions -- including an $85 retail price for the camera-based system -- and estimate that Natal will boost Microsoft's revenue by $1.7 billion in its 2011 fiscal year (which begins in July 2010) and $2.3 billion in its 2012 fiscal year.
It's a bullish position, to say the least, and it will no doubt be greeted with some skepticism. For a bit of context, Microsoft's entire Online Services Business posted only $3 billion in revenue in the 2009 fiscal year, out of $58.4 billion in companywide revenue.
The Goldman Sachs analysts obviously believe consumer demand for the motion-sensitive Project Natal device will be big. In a note to clients, they say they expect Natal to reach a 56 percent "attach rate" less than two years after its launch, meaning that more than half of new and existing Xbox 360 owners will buy Natal for their consoles. By comparison, they say, Nintendo's Wii Fit achieved a 41 percent attach rate over a similar time period.
"Xbox has been predominantly targeted towards a more hardcore gaming demographic, which is different from the family oriented approach of Wii and Wii Fit," they write, adding that "Natal now adds a hook for the more casual gamer."
Cumulative sales of the Xbox 360 were 39 million worldwide at the end of 2009. Project that out to 2011 and 2012, take into account the analysts' estimates of attach rates for Natal, multiply the result by their $85 price assumption, and you can see how they start getting into the realm of billions of dollars in revenue. On Microsoft's bottom line, the analysts predict that Natal will translate directly into increases in earnings-per-share of 4 cents (2 percent) in fiscal year 2011 and 7 cents (3 percent) in fiscal year 2012.
"Internally, Microsoft views Natal’s introduction as significantly extending the lifecycle of Xbox 360 to 10 years (until 2015), which is double the average for consoles," they write. "If this is the case this could have significantly positive ramifications for the longer-term margins of [Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices] group."
Microsoft itself hasn't talked in detail about the financial potential of Natal, which is expected to be released under a different name. However, the question is likely to be asked by analysts on the company's post-earnings conference call Thursday afternoon, now that Microsoft has confirmed a fall release.
Natal will use its camera-based system to let a user control the action on screen by moving around, without the need to hold a controller. It's part of the company's shift toward "natural user interfaces." Nintendo's Wii popularized the idea of motion controls with its Wiimote and companion nunchuck. Sony last week delayed, until fall, the release of its new PlayStation 3 motion controller.
Someone needs to crack a window because the analyst have been hot boxing the internet again. Did this guy really say that he expects Natal to be more explosive than WiiFit (on an attach rate basis) in a 2 year time frame!? 56% attach rate!? He needs to pass what ever that is he is smoking on.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 07:19:14 PM
This will be quite the `Hindentanic.`
I love it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 07:21:13 PM
Analysts see Project Natal adding billions to Microsoft's revenue (http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/01/analysts_see_project_natal_as_microsofts_next_billion-dollar_product.html) more like cost MS billions in revenue.
Quote
Video-game enthusiasts are looking forward to the release of Microsoft's motion-sensitive video-game control system, code-named "Project Natal," later this year. Maybe investors should be doing the same.
That's the underlying message in an analysis of Project Natal issued this morning by Sarah Friar and Derek Bingham of Goldman Sachs. The analysts make a series of assumptions -- including an $85 retail price for the camera-based system -- and estimate that Natal will boost Microsoft's revenue by $1.7 billion in its 2011 fiscal year (which begins in July 2010) and $2.3 billion in its 2012 fiscal year.
It's a bullish position, to say the least, and it will no doubt be greeted with some skepticism. For a bit of context, Microsoft's entire Online Services Business posted only $3 billion in revenue in the 2009 fiscal year, out of $58.4 billion in companywide revenue.
The Goldman Sachs analysts obviously believe consumer demand for the motion-sensitive Project Natal device will be big. In a note to clients, they say they expect Natal to reach a 56 percent "attach rate" less than two years after its launch, meaning that more than half of new and existing Xbox 360 owners will buy Natal for their consoles. By comparison, they say, Nintendo's Wii Fit achieved a 41 percent attach rate over a similar time period.
"Xbox has been predominantly targeted towards a more hardcore gaming demographic, which is different from the family oriented approach of Wii and Wii Fit," they write, adding that "Natal now adds a hook for the more casual gamer."
Cumulative sales of the Xbox 360 were 39 million worldwide at the end of 2009. Project that out to 2011 and 2012, take into account the analysts' estimates of attach rates for Natal, multiply the result by their $85 price assumption, and you can see how they start getting into the realm of billions of dollars in revenue. On Microsoft's bottom line, the analysts predict that Natal will translate directly into increases in earnings-per-share of 4 cents (2 percent) in fiscal year 2011 and 7 cents (3 percent) in fiscal year 2012.
"Internally, Microsoft views Natal’s introduction as significantly extending the lifecycle of Xbox 360 to 10 years (until 2015), which is double the average for consoles," they write. "If this is the case this could have significantly positive ramifications for the longer-term margins of [Microsoft's Entertainment & Devices] group."
Microsoft itself hasn't talked in detail about the financial potential of Natal, which is expected to be released under a different name. However, the question is likely to be asked by analysts on the company's post-earnings conference call Thursday afternoon, now that Microsoft has confirmed a fall release.
Natal will use its camera-based system to let a user control the action on screen by moving around, without the need to hold a controller. It's part of the company's shift toward "natural user interfaces." Nintendo's Wii popularized the idea of motion controls with its Wiimote and companion nunchuck. Sony last week delayed, until fall, the release of its new PlayStation 3 motion controller.
Someone needs to crack a window because the analyst have been hot boxing the internet again. Did this guy really say that he expects Natal to be more explosive than WiiFit (on an attach rate basis) in a 2 year time frame!? 56% attach rate!? He needs to pass what ever that is he is smoking on.
Yeah, who's butt CRACK has he been sniffin'
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 07:30:39 PM
"Video-game enthusiasts are looking forward to the release of Microsoft's motion-sensitive video-game control system"
AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA video game enthusiasts? really?
How do they make this stuff up!?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 27, 2010, 07:31:46 PM
Manatees?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 27, 2010, 07:35:32 PM
Manatees that fly and drive taxis and go to work everyday? Is this for real?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 27, 2010, 07:38:13 PM
Manatees that swim in a giant tank filled with word coded balls.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 27, 2010, 09:02:09 PM
Hey, i'm just glad that the Manatees that got laid off from Family Guy were able to find work elsewhere. Times are tough.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on January 27, 2010, 09:26:10 PM
I wonder where these enthusiastic "analysts" were back when Wii was announced. :reggie:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 27, 2010, 09:27:27 PM
they were getting paid to NOT be enthusiastic?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 27, 2010, 09:31:57 PM
Moneyhats: They're not just for developers anymore
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 27, 2010, 09:45:53 PM
where they ever? I'd get something tattooed on my forehead if i got a paycheck for it every week.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Caterkiller on January 28, 2010, 02:11:29 AM
I wonder where these enthusiastic "analysts" were back when Wii was announced. :reggie:
For real! I remember the Wii being a distant 3rd in every analysts predictions. Now this motion thingy can't fail!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 28, 2010, 02:23:06 AM
Well, you can't really fault analysts for not being able to see things coming.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 28, 2010, 02:31:08 AM
Just fault their employers for still keeping them.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Kairon on January 28, 2010, 03:06:41 AM
I can understand that, this being a Nintendo forum, there's some latent hostility towards the competition. However, as a diehard Nintendo fanboi and Wii-only gamer, I have faith that Natal will deliver. The Wiimote wasn't perfect either, and it still accomplished what it set out to do. Microsoft demonstrated the Natal tech in E3 2009, and the demonstration didn't have any major hiccups. Since then, even with the chip removal, I'm not willing to bet that MS will show up with an unworkable product at the Natal launch. It'll have its quirks and caveats, but it'll be enough.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on January 28, 2010, 03:35:28 AM
This isn't a Nintendo fanboy thing. I think the Disco Stick has potential. Microsoft just hasn't at all demonstrated that this technology has any legitimate gaming application beyond Wii Play-type tech demos. Nintendo didn't sell Wiis because of the controller technology; they sold them with Wii Sports, and Microsoft has yet to show anything close to that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on January 28, 2010, 04:48:21 AM
By 2011, the Yankee Group report predicts that Sony will have sold 30 million PlayStation 3s, controlling 44 percent of the market, compared with an estimated 27 million Xbox 360 units, which would account for 40 percent of the market.
Nintendo is expected to stay in third place with 11 million Wiis sold, claiming 16 percent of the console buying market.
Reggie, how would you explain this discrepancy? You work for Nintendo, so you should be able to tell us if Nintendo is buying back millions of Wiis in order to artificially inflate its market share. :reggie:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 28, 2010, 11:10:56 AM
It's amazing how much money Nintendo makes per Wii. They can buy them back by the boat load and still make a ton of profit off of selling them to themselves. Why haven't they started a Nintendo school of business and shard the secrets of profiting off yourself with the rest of the world?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on January 28, 2010, 12:53:31 PM
It's amazing how much money Nintendo makes per Wii. They can buy them back by the boat load and still make a ton of profit off of selling them to themselves. Why haven't they started a Nintendo school of business and shard the secrets of profiting off yourself with the rest of the world?
Thats the genius of it all. Since Nintendo buys them back it forces Sony and MS to make more Wiis so it doesn't seem like they are constantly selling out. Its the perfect crime.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Invincible Donkey Kong on January 28, 2010, 06:01:52 PM
I can understand that, this being a Nintendo forum, there's some latent hostility towards the competition. However, as a diehard Nintendo fanboi and Wii-only gamer, I have faith that Natal will deliver. The Wiimote wasn't perfect either, and it still accomplished what it set out to do. Microsoft demonstrated the Natal tech in E3 2009, and the demonstration didn't have any major hiccups. Since then, even with the chip removal, I'm not willing to bet that MS will show up with an unworkable product at the Natal launch. It'll have its quirks and caveats, but it'll be enough.
I don't believe that Natal will ship out completely buggy (though it's not really out of the question considering Microsoft hardly has a respectable hardware track record), but I do question the device's popularity. The blue ocean gamer already has a Wii and will not bother purchasing a second console, so Microsoft will have to rely on their hardcore fan base. Whether or not they will throw away their pride (which they have gradually built up through Wii mockery and the like) to spaz out in front of their televisions is yet to be seen. I expect little more than EyeToy levels of interest. :reggie:
Reggie, how would you explain this discrepancy? You work for Nintendo, so you should be able to tell us if Nintendo is buying back millions of Wiis in order to artificially inflate its market share.
It helps making actual PROFIT so we can buy back our consoles, unlike our competitors.
Oh, and steal my visual signature again and I'll punt you. :reggie:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on January 29, 2010, 05:26:26 AM
Thought exercise: Throwing a new gamer in front of Natal. He powers the system up. It shows the menu. There is no controller, only the Natal camera. What do you think he'll do? Even if he knows that the camera can track movement, what's the movement to move through a menu? Point at what you want? Doesn't work. There's an infinite number of possible gestures at any given time and they seem to be used as "waggle" (button press replacements) so it's not just a matter of discovering a linear correlation.
If a random person finds a Wiimote he'll know that it has to be pointed at a TV, he'll see the cursor show up. He realizes you can point at things with it. Once you point at something there's no question what to do: There's a big, round button on the top of the remote that's just begging to be pressed. He presses it and predictably it activates what he pointed at.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on January 29, 2010, 06:03:07 AM
I never thought of that. You think Minority Report but real life isn't so simple, especially without the actual 3d hologram technology. People need to know the right gesture to grab the screen, the right pointing gesture, the right selecting gesture, the right unselect/move back gesture, what happens when you do two gestures at once, etc.
I imagine you will here a lot of disappointed people (by a lot I mean the few people who buy it) when it first comes out because people will be really upset the technology isn't what they expected/doesn't work how they want it to. I especially expect the message boards to explode when they don't get what they imagine.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 29, 2010, 06:04:52 AM
In a game you might have some huge fireball or something hurtling at your character, so in NATAL you motion to move out of the way, but because of the lag you don't move quickly enough and then you DIE!!!@@@!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 29, 2010, 02:13:14 PM
I never thought of that. You think Minority Report but real life isn't so simple, especially without the actual 3d hologram technology. People need to know the right gesture to grab the screen, the right pointing gesture, the right selecting gesture, the right unselect/move back gesture, what happens when you do two gestures at once, etc.
I imagine you will here a lot of disappointed people (by a lot I mean the few people who buy it) when it first comes out because people will be really upset the technology isn't what they expected/doesn't work how they want it to. I especially expect the message boards to explode when they don't get what they imagine.
People will see movies like Minority Report and more recently Gamer and expect Natal to work like that. They will be really confused and very disappointed when it doesn't. I've always thought that they tech itself will work fine, but it's initial application into gaming won't be very intuitive nor will it be all that fun. Worst of all it will all be very optional and therefore not used very much. People will pick this up at first and then never use it past the "hardcores" using it for head tracking and voice recognition that have been patched into their favorite FPS's.
A few years later I expect the tech to resurface in some other consumer electronic for 3D menu manipulation, like a HTPC setup for the living room, or some other thing that I can't think of right now.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on January 29, 2010, 03:03:50 PM
I think these analysts don't actually play games so they don't think of the specifics. We play games. When we think of a potential issue we're probably thinking about how it would affect our own videogame experience. Because we're gamers we can put ourselves in the shoes of the person using the product.
When the Wii remote was first revealed I was concerned about the precision of a controller that detects motions and gestures. And as successful as the Wii is I was completely dead on about that concern. Everyone has had that moment where the damn thing just didn't do what you wanted it to or you accidentally moved the controller a bit and Mario did a spin-jump (my brother dies in NSMB all the time because of this). Since I'm familiar with videogames and have used different controllers before I immediately could imagine what it would be like to use it.
Sony's "Arc"? It seems similar enough to the remote that I imagine it will work similarly with similar pros and cons. The use of the Eye Toy might create issues though if something gets in the way. It sounds like certain lights could **** stuff up too. The idea does however sound similar enough to the remote that it will work okay.
Natal however creates all sorts of issues that a yutz who never plays videogames and just makes assumptions wouldn't think of. They see people dancing around and stuff happening on the screen and they go "wow!" I look at it and think "what if I scratch my face while playing? How can I pause quickly if I have to do a gesture to indicate it? What if I'm too short, too tall, too fat or too skinny? What if I'm not flexible enough to do what the game wants (you can always "fake it" on the Wii)? What if someone else walks in the way? Does it think that's part of you?" Analysts who don't play games don't think of this stuff. They're wowed by the superfiscial nature of it.
I think so much about why the Wii works is because there still are buttons and there's still a tool involved. It's still all controlled by this controller in your hand. I think that just provides a better feeling of control. You know that if you need to not **** something up and save right now you can just push the + button and do it. On Natal what if it misinterprets your gesture and instead of pausing to save it causes your character to jump off the cliff next to you? If Nintendo made it so the remote had no buttons on it all I can't imagine how you could even play anything with it. And Microsoft is taking it a step further.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Caterkiller on January 29, 2010, 03:37:17 PM
I can understand that, this being a Nintendo forum, there's some latent hostility towards the competition. However, as a diehard Nintendo fanboi and Wii-only gamer, I have faith that Natal will deliver. The Wiimote wasn't perfect either, and it still accomplished what it set out to do. Microsoft demonstrated the Natal tech in E3 2009, and the demonstration didn't have any major hiccups. Since then, even with the chip removal, I'm not willing to bet that MS will show up with an unworkable product at the Natal launch. It'll have its quirks and caveats, but it'll be enough.
I don't believe that Natal will ship out completely buggy (though it's not really out of the question considering Microsoft hardly has a respectable hardware track record), but I do question the device's popularity. The blue ocean gamer already has a Wii and will not bother purchasing a second console, so Microsoft will have to rely on their hardcore fan base. Whether or not they will throw away their pride (which they have gradually built up through Wii mockery and the like) to spaz out in front of their televisions is yet to be seen. I expect little more than EyeToy levels of interest. :reggie:
Reggie, how would you explain this discrepancy? You work for Nintendo, so you should be able to tell us if Nintendo is buying back millions of Wiis in order to artificially inflate its market share.
It helps making actual PROFIT so we can buy back our consoles, unlike our competitors.
Oh, and steal my visual signature again and I'll punt you. :reggie:
Even if you aren't the real Reggie, you still are the real Reggie! What ever that means.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 29, 2010, 03:43:16 PM
Well, one good thing about NATAL is we won't have remotes being thrown accidently across rooms and caving in other people's skulls.... (which I don't think ever actually happened with the wii either, come to think of it)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on January 29, 2010, 03:44:25 PM
I'm actually interested to see how Natal turns out; bad or otherwise. I honestly think the homebrew community might have a ball with this.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: oohhboy on January 29, 2010, 04:13:31 PM
I wonder if it has third leg gesture controls. If it does the industry would be all over it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 29, 2010, 04:16:35 PM
Hot Coffee in front of the TV instead of in the TV. Sometimes on the TV.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on January 29, 2010, 07:38:39 PM
Sow how long until the Natal++ comes out and will ian say the same things he said about the wiimote/motion+ (about it being a ripoff to customers)?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on January 29, 2010, 08:28:46 PM
Well, one good thing about NATAL is we won't have remotes being thrown accidently across rooms and caving in other people's skulls....
Yeah, but you will have people hurling their bodies about wildly, which could be even more dangerous and lawsuit-inducing...
Hmm, since the xbox is most popular in the U.S., make that "hurling their massive bodies about wildly."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 29, 2010, 09:21:34 PM
It might trigger a few heart attacks. American gamers aren't used to moving their bodies. Moving ones arm ala the wiimote is one thing, but it is another thing to move the entire body about. The balance board didn't really count because it has a 330 pound weight limit, which meant it was off limits to American gamers. But Natal has no weight limit, and that is where the real danger lies.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 12, 2010, 07:38:26 PM
We're not sure if this is a hint toward the final form factor, or merely the simplest conglomeration of parts available to get working Project Natal sensors in the hands of developers, but The Seattle Times has posted a picture today a developer prototype of the motion-sensing unit. The seems clearly slimmer in proportion than the soundbar-styled renders we've seen thus far, but also quite a bit different than the hacked together hardware used for the Jimmy Fallon demo of the tech. Of course, the fact that the assembly has been slapped atop a Gorillapod makes it hard to believe this is near-final hardware, but it's still fun to see this stuff as evolves toward our living rooms.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 19, 2010, 03:44:43 PM
A new P. Natal Ball Slap demo is up on the interwebs http://techland.com/2010/02/19/in-which-we-demo-project-natal/
and Natal had a guest appearance on last weeks episode of Smallville http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4HomEnDzXI
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BeautifulShy on February 19, 2010, 04:20:41 PM
You know Microsoft keeps showing off these little demos on shows and yet there isn't much to the games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on February 19, 2010, 05:06:59 PM
That Natal prototype looks like a car rearview mirror. Or a minature spider variation of Johnny 5 from Short Circuit.
Isn't this supposed to come out this year? And we're still getting little demos and no real information. Maybe they're just saving it for E3. But right now this feels like it's years away. It still just feels like a concept instead of a real product.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 19, 2010, 05:07:51 PM
I don't know if anyone care but here it the technical specs for a system that is very comparable to Natal http://www.primesense.com/category/reference_design (http://www.primesense.com/category/reference_design)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2010, 09:36:36 AM
That Natal prototype looks like a car rearview mirror. Or a minature spider variation of Johnny 5 from Short Circuit.
Isn't this supposed to come out this year? And we're still getting little demos and no real information. Maybe they're just saving it for E3. But right now this feels like it's years away. It still just feels like a concept instead of a real product.
Microsoft pulled crap like that with the Surface too, it was supposed to be out years ago and I think there's still not more than a few prototypes made. It's a PR stunt to draw attention away from competitors with a "superior" version supposedly coming out "any moment now" (oh, hey, what happened to that new file system Vista was supposed to have, by the way?). MS also benefits from leaks because they build hype so it's likely that they even encourage them. Notice that Nintendo rarely leaks anything, that's because Nintendo makes real inventions and leaking them would severely damage the company.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 24, 2010, 02:19:12 AM
Jason VandenBerghe, Creative director of Red Steel 2, is skeptical of Natal. (http://videogamesdaily.com/interviews/201002/red-steel-2-interview/5/)
Quote
VGD: Is this the sort of game that would only work on the Wii?
VandenBerghe: No, I think it could work fantastically with the Sony wand. With this kind of game you need a thumbstick, that’s the only real constraint. For walking around at least, I haven’t seen a solution. Microsoft may come forward and show me something I haven’t seen before, which makes me understand how you can play a first-person action game like this that requires this intense finesse and accuracy in your motion, and not have a controller in your hand of some kind.
But I think we need to have a thumbstick. I think this is probably a more natural fit for the Sony side of things right now, but I don’t think Microsoft is showing all of its cards right now either. And that’s not an insider release – I don’t know. I just don’t buy it. There’s more coming, there has to be more. And you know what, I would love to play these games.
I would also, for the record, love to play an on-rails first-person swordfighting game with Natal. Love to! House of the Dead with a sword? Sounds fantastic to me. [...] I’m a realist. It really bugs a lot of people I think. I think game designers are supposed to talk about things that are impossible, and are supposed to share grandiose visions that never come true, and I’m not down with that. I don’t like that.
I’m a realist and I prefer to be able to follow through on the promises and hopes and make it actually happen. It’s hard, and it means that now and then you have to say ‘I don’t really see it’. And again I’m not writing it off – there are a lot of really smart people at Microsoft, and I’m sure they’ve got answers to these problems, but I just haven’t seen them. So I’m looking forward to the big reveal.
I'm glad he can come out and say it. Because I'm not really seeing it either.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 27, 2010, 01:17:16 PM
Looks like MS is already kicking the Natal Marketing Machine in gear...
Microsoft turns to celebs for Natal (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37750/Microsoft-turns-to-celebs-for-Natal)
Quote
Marketing drive gearing up to target non-gamers and potential new Xbox audience
Microsoft will directly challenge Nintendo’s mass-market media efforts when it launches Natal later this year.
MCV understands that format-holder Microsoft is already planning early promotional efforts for the camera device to include celebrity endorsements and coverage in non-games media.
Microsoft this week invited an ‘elite selection of media’ and non-games firms to attend a VIP showcase. The likes of Vogue and Glamour have been targeted in a bid to build awareness for its upcoming motion-tracking peripheral.
By courting areas like the parenting press, toy retailers and publications which primarily cater for non-gamers, the format holder will be directly chasing the core Wii audience Nintendo has built in the last four years.
MCV understands that this week’s tour was designed to introduce the device to non-gaming specialists and educate non-gamers.
I'm not really worried about how Nintendo is gonna respond to all this "HYPE" building, but more interested in how Sony is gonna respond to MS and and overshadow the Natal "HYPE".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on February 27, 2010, 04:20:09 PM
Celebs get a new venue for looking stupid. Just what we need.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on February 27, 2010, 07:43:20 PM
i dont care what celebs think, just make movies or music and don't give me a reason to boycott!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 27, 2010, 09:00:54 PM
Do I smell a Just Dance port coming? http://projectnatalgames.org/project-natal-breakdancing-video/
Maybe if Ubi was smart... But since lag is such an important issue around the internet, someone took the time to also do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjlehekgXDQ&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2010, 10:56:22 PM
Naughty Dog co-founder: Natal’s killer app “may not be a game” (http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2010/02/28/naughty-dog-co-founder-natals-killer-app-may-not-be-a-game/) Jason Rubin - Former Head of Naughty Dog, Ex Sony Suit and man behind Uncharted
Quote
Project Natal’s killer app may not be a videogame, Naughty Dog co-founder and current social game startup Monkey Gods’ Chief Monkey Jason Rubin believes. It’s more about the interface, he says, and how it works into the rest of our living room setup.
“Things like Natal are going to revolutionize far more than gaming. I think putting Natal in the Xbox gives the Xbox an opportunity to become a lot more than just a game machine and I think there are things you can do outside of gaming that will justify buying the Natal. I firmly believe that if Microsoft plays its cards right that they could sell far more Xboxes next generation … they could sell it to people that don’t play games,” Rubin said on the latest episode of Bonus Round.
“The amazing thing about Natal is that never before has a piece of hardware hooked up to your television been able to recognize you and who you are, had information about you and what you like, and been able to hear your voice and understand your voice.
“And the capabilities that come out of that I believe go far beyond games and that the killer app for it — and all these things need something that catches people’s attention — surprisingly, we may find out that it’s not specifically a game. It’s not whacking balls against the wall. It will be the interface and what it allows you to do to all the other things hooked up to your tv.
“I’m a firm believer now, after playing around with Natal, that Natal and things like it are going to revolutionize our den.
“Once you have that interface and the ability to hook this up to your den, Natal will give you reasons to love it that aren’t games. Not calling games as bad, games will be good too, but the killer app may not be a game.” I'm actually of the belief that Natal isn't really for games and will eventually find it's place outside of gaming.
As to how Natal connected to an Xbox360 is gonna have any effect on anything hooked up in my "den"...... I'm not so sure where he is going with that. I'm not buying all new stuff to be Natal compatible and none of my stuff was ever designed with any sort of X360 compatibility in mind.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on February 28, 2010, 11:12:56 PM
"Monkey Gods’ Chief Monkey Jason Rubin believes.."
Why can't I stop laughing?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on February 28, 2010, 11:19:29 PM
I fucking knew it!
I knew that the main attraction will be the interface. I'm almost positive I called it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on March 01, 2010, 02:10:37 AM
'cause if there's one thing most consumers want, it's the ability to change the teevee channel via interpretive dance...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on March 01, 2010, 02:56:19 AM
'cause if there's one thing most consumers want, its something Nintendo came up with 5 years ago
fixed
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on March 01, 2010, 03:12:38 AM
I was thinking more like something out of Minority Report...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on March 01, 2010, 04:17:22 AM
After seeing a video with a guy break dancing I think the launch is going to be full of dance games and fitness games.
It will probably be able to do both very well if lag doesn't screw things up. I can see an improvement over the Wii dance games my girlfriend plays and new fitness applications (no scale though) and they are single player so no worries. These are also games that have been released and kind of proven so it fits the general attitude of developers and motion control.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on March 01, 2010, 04:32:23 AM
So like what? Virtual jump rope and what not?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 01, 2010, 06:26:28 PM
This is Microsoft, so we all should know that they don't really give much of a crap about video games. The Xbox is a gaming machine (for the moment), but what they really want to do with it is invade people's living rooms and set up their monopoly there the way they did with computers.
So when Microsoft says Natal is an interface thing and not for games, they are probably telling the truth. This might be more for browsing the web, doing spreadsheets, etc.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: SixthAngel on March 02, 2010, 05:19:48 AM
I am thinking things that involve a little more jumping but especially things that involve more arm movement. Jumping jacks is a possiblity. Natal seems like it could pick them up better than the remote and doesn't have a wire to keep your hands from moving too far apart. A lot of dance games and exercise games tell you to move your remoteless arm or bend down anyway and it only measures the remote. The movement will be different in quite a few instances but it will depend if people really care if the game also measures their legs when they dance, not just their arm(s). This does bring a possible problem of the games just being too difficult though if too many inputs are required, but that is all up to developers.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 09, 2010, 10:46:22 AM
Could there be a SlimBox360 to go with the Natal Launch Bundle?
Steve Ballmer teases new Xbox 360 form factors, price points and options (http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/06/steve-ballmer-teases-new-xbox-360-form-factors-price-points-and/)
Quote
For that big screen device ... there's no diversity. You get exactly the Xboxes that we build for you. We may have more form factors in the future that are designed for various price points and options, but we think it's going to [be] important.
If they came up with a SlimBox360 and was not only better looking the then current 360, smaller than the current 360, but completely redesigned on the inside to eliminate all the RRoD and Err44 or whatever they're called, then it might finally be time to put the fears of a failed 360 behind me and finally pick one up.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 09, 2010, 12:16:04 PM
Natal Lineup to be revealed at E3. 70% of developers on board... (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/107/1075174p1.html)
Quote
Mount said the company has put its best designers in charge of coming up with ideas for the platform.
"We have very strong first and third-party developer support for [Natal], she said. "Needless to say, we're putting some of our best people on coming up with great game ideas for this, and we're going to have some great stuff."
During last year's Tokyo Game Show, Microsoft published a list of developers "actively working" on Natal-based titles, which includes Bethesda, Electronic Arts, and Square-Enix. And as recently as January, the list has grown to over 70 percent of total game publishers worldwide.
"It's part of the reason that we announced [Natal] as early as last summer so that we'd have time to get kits out and get the entire game developer community developing games for it."
Mount also said the company expects to show gamers its full lineup of Natal games at this year's E3 event in Los Angeles.
"As a history, Microsoft works very strong with third-party developers, so we're hoping that we're going to get some great titles from that," she said. "You'll be able to see more news about that this summer at E3. We'll show you the full lineup."
Fable III, Microsoft's exclusive Xbox 360 title set for release this fall, is the only major title confirmed to support Natal so far. The company's other big title this year, Halo: Reach, will not utilize Natal at all, developer Bungie confirmed.
I expect MS to have an HUGE space reserved at E3 this year otherwise Natal will encompass their entire booth. and they can't have that happen since they just said: MS: ‘Natal won’t hurt our core focus’ (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37863/MS-Natal-wont-hurt-our-core-focus)
Quote
“From the beginning, Xbox has always had a very deliberate strategy to focus on core gamers and then expand the market,” said Lewis. [...] “Project Natal is meant to complement, not replace, the experiences on Xbox 360. We’ve reached new heights in creating a more natural and responsive gaming and entertainment experience for people of all interests and skill levels, whilst maintaining our commitment to deliver quality core games that consistently exceed expectations.”
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 09, 2010, 12:28:45 PM
They NEED space just for one player to look idiotic. Wii is efficient and ergonomic enough to comfortably accommodate 2 idiots in a similar space.
Natal is NOT for playing together. Natal is for playing with yourself.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 12, 2010, 04:36:59 AM
IGN: "Natal is a buggy, slow, imprecise piece of ****" (http://wii.ign.com/articles/107/1077008p1.html)
Quote from: Matt C. @ IGN
Natal, though -- the motion offering from Microsoft -- not so much. The same studio rep calls Natal a big, buggy mess. "It's sh*t," he adds, saying that it just doesn't work as promised. That it's slow and that the camera is imprecise, which he notes, is causing some major development woes.
He refers to a development conference Microsoft held not so long ago in which Peter Molyneux of Fable fame (presently, creative director at Microsoft Game Studios) took the stage and attempted to demo the publisher's much-publicized Milo Natal project. Molyneux apparently called someone from the audience to the stage and asked them to interact with the virtual boy, but it didn't go to plan. Natal's camera failed to see the person accurately because he was wearing a black trench coat. After some fiddling, he was asked to remove his trench coat and -- whoops -- wore a black shirt underneath. When it still didn't work, he was invited to take his seat again.
Next, Molyneux said that Milo could interact with illustrations drawn to paper and scanned by the camera. He asked the audience for suggestions. "You could see him cocking his head and listening for the right key words, and then finally he heard something the game would recognize," my development source explains. It was a cat. So he invited someone from the audience to ascend the steps to the stage and illustrate the feline on paper. When Natal attempted to scan the horribly scribbled drawing, it instead picked up the Abercrombie & Fitch logo on the person's sweater.
I laugh at this but try to play devil's advocate. Okay, I say, so it's obvious you're not a fan, but somebody must be getting this thing to work well or it wouldn't be on the slate to ship this year. I ask if he knows of any other studios struggling with Natal.
"How about Rare and Lionhead? They're just going to try to make launch and then they're going to patch everything later," he says, laughing.
I'm very interested in the platform, but I haven't entrenched myself in Natal development. Later, when I bump into a colleague, I ask them if they have heard any behind-the-scenes rumblings about development trouble with Microsoft's casual entry device. He turns to me and says that yes, he has -- that studios are telling him they're struggling to get it working.
There is also some talk on Nintendo Wii and Wii 2 and the Sony Wiimote.
Quote from: Matt C. @ IGN
Takeaways so far: Sony has made a dildo-controller that feels like a gimped Wii remote. Natal sucks. And Wii 2 is in no rush. At least, that's how it goes in pure black and white and if you believe everything you hear at this year's Game Developers Conference.
edit: I forgot to add; E3 2010 is gonna be (http://i37.tinypic.com/i42umv.jpg) ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 12, 2010, 07:28:25 AM
Looks like Microsoft had no trouble at all of giving NATAL that special Windoze BSOD touch they are well known for.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 12, 2010, 12:13:09 PM
I hope they fix Natal before it launches because I like the idea of it (and hope they also include those 2 tech demos i with it, maybe Milo too).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on March 12, 2010, 12:44:42 PM
When Natal was announced it reaked of an idea conjured up in a boardroom by a bunch of marketing people who don't play videogames and lack the technical knowledge to even understand if their idea would even work. And that's exactly what it is. :)
You can poke fun at Sony for just knocking off the Wii remote but at least they've got something that works and it was an idea that was already known to be feasible. Natal sounds like a complete disaster. It sounds so bad that I could see MS being in last place if they had to go against a PS3 w/ Move and a Wii2. Consider that the next gen but MS would be so out-of-it with their non-functioning motion control that they might as well be a generation behind.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Caterkiller on March 12, 2010, 04:01:01 PM
Was going to post this too, very surprised about all of this. I remember the Red Steel demo years back at E3, the guy had a bit of trouble just aiming and doing various simple things. I thought "aww man" well there goes that game, I instantly knew it would be garbage. Well this don't look good for Microsoft, not at all. But I doubt it could be this mess when it launches. Then again...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 12, 2010, 06:12:42 PM
If any of you have doubts about Microsoft releasing a piece of garbage as a finished product, I refer you all to the examples of their Windows operating systems which are notorious for failure, and also the 360 itself with its frequent RRODs.
MS is a company notorious for software and hardware failure, so don't put it past them that NATAL would be a piece of **** at launch.
Here is a video that says it all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzFUcDKC64E
Watch the video and then imagine something like this happening at E3 when NATAL is unveiled.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on March 12, 2010, 06:49:01 PM
Quote
If any of you have doubts about Microsoft releasing a piece of garbage as a finished product, I refer you all to the examples of their Windows operating systems which are notorious for failure, and also the 360 itself with its frequent RRODs.
Does anyone doubt that? ;)
I figure they HAVE to release it. How do you announce something like this and invest all this time and money into it and then just can the whole thing? And I think they clearly still need a motion control solution of some sort since everyone else has one now. I can't imagine practically any company doing this. Games come out all the time where everyone call tell the whole thing is a complete disaster. Same with movies. I think the plan is just "let's hope enough people buy this junk to regroup costs." The only time you really pull out of this is you're afraid of legal action being taken against a defective product (like car safety stuff).
Do you think Nintendo thought the Virtual Boy was going to go places or did they just release it because, **** it, they already made the damn thing and games for it. Or how about junk like the Power Glove or Sega Activitor. Surely those companies knew the product was a joke but sold it anyway.
Though I remember that the E3 before the Xbox launch Halo bombed hard at the show. Everyone thought it was a joke. And to the suprise everyone the issues were addressed in time and the game turned out to be good and the Xbox, you know, beat the Gamecube. That's probably the only time I've ever seen something make such a turnaround in development. Most games that suck at E3 suck when they're released. So maybe MS can do that again.
... but I doubt it. The idea just sounds like such a disaster. It's like an invention a kid would come up with. A kid comes up with an idea for virtual reality games but doesn't think for a second about the science behind it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Guitar Smasher on March 12, 2010, 08:09:55 PM
... but I doubt it. The idea just sounds like such a disaster. It's like an invention a kid would come up with. A kid comes up with an idea for virtual reality games but doesn't think for a second about the science behind it.
Don't insult kids, really the general public has a very poor grasp of the current state of science and technology. It seems every new system is rumoured to have '3d projectors', or in the case of the Wii 'force resistance' (I'd love to see what my dynamics prof would have to say about that). Remember when 'hover cars' were going to be the next thing?
But then maybe Natal isn't meant to be viable product. The intent might have only been to be a viable solution. It's been said before, but Natal is as much a marketing ploy as it is a product. I'm sure Microsoft has known about its limitations for a considerable amount of time, but that doesn't really matter when all they're trying to do is steal attention and slow down Wii sales. "Considering a Wii, well we're adding motion control to HD gaming!" "Oh you want motion gaming now? Well don't even consider a Wii because our motion controls will be fantastically better, and will make Wii look like child's play!" It might sound silly, but they have to do something while they come up with a real strategy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on March 12, 2010, 08:13:25 PM
they don't have to release it...n64dd comes to mind. it sort of came out, but not really, iv never seen one at least.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 12, 2010, 08:28:18 PM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 12, 2010, 08:40:28 PM
I hope Ubisoft pushes the hell out of that game and supports it with atleast one more title at E3. "You want controller Free gaming!? We have already delivered and it's been available for months!! So why wait?"
I don't think it will sell well, but it will definitely make people question Natal a little bit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 12, 2010, 08:41:41 PM
Do you think Nintendo thought the Virtual Boy was going to go places or did they just release it because, **** it, they already made the damn thing and games for it.
This is actually the correct reason. None of the higher ups at Nintendo had any faith in the Virtual Boy and wanted Gunpei Yokoi to drop the project, but Yokoi was really dedicated to it. Before the Virtual Boy, Yokoi was a high ranking employee at Nintendo and one of Yamauchi's most trusted. Even though Yamauchi himself wasn't a fan of the Virtual Boy, he allowed it to be developed solely because of his faith in Yokoi. Yokoi ended up betting his entire reputation and credibility in order to get Nintendo to release the system which is why when the system ended up being a failure, Yokoi's career at Nintendo was over.
Of course had Nintendo allowed Yokoi more time to actually finish the system and not force him to rush it out, it might have been more successful. Yokoi wanted the system to be full color but they had a hard time getting it to work right. Had he been given more time like he wanted, the system would have had full color instead of red/black which probably would have made it more successful. How much more successful though no one know which is why I can see why Nintendo wouldn't allow him to have more time to finish the system up.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2010, 02:22:35 AM
they don't have to release it...n64dd comes to mind. it sort of came out, but not really, iv never seen one at least.
Exactly. All Microsoft has to do is do what Nintendo did with 64DD and release it exclusively in Japan. It is guaranteed not to sell there (nothing Microsoft makes does there), so there it can die a quiet death with little attention given to it. Microsoft would be able to save face by saying they did release it after all, and then they can mark it down at clearance prices to get rid of it just like how they did with the HD-DVD addons.
HD-DVD addon for the 360 was another of MS's hairbrained ideas.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2010, 02:30:40 AM
Of course had Nintendo allowed Yokoi more time to actually finish the system and not force him to rush it out, it might have been more successful. Yokoi wanted the system to be full color but they had a hard time getting it to work right. Had he been given more time like he wanted, the system would have had full color instead of red/black which probably would have made it more successful. How much more successful though no one know which is why I can see why Nintendo wouldn't allow him to have more time to finish the system up.
I heard the reason it was only in red is because red lasers were the cheapest, and to use other lasers to make it in color would have upped the cost into the thousands of dollars. I'm sure prices are much lower now and if something like this were done today it could be done in full color at a much more affordable price.
But that actually isn't the reason it failed. There are actually many reasons ranging from poor battery life, to the fact it really wasn't portable at all, to endless complaints about people having headaches and eye damage while using it. Those were all factors in its failure.
But of course, the one thing that doomed it more than anything was the fact Nintendo themselves didn't support it. It was the exact same reason hat doomed Sega's 32x. The 32x was kinda cool, and probably could have been Sega's answer to the PS1 and so forth, but instead Sega ALSO released the Saturn and immediately severed support for the 32x. If a company won't support its own hardware 100% then its doomed to fail. That's really all there is to it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Luigi Dude on March 13, 2010, 04:45:00 AM
But of course, the one thing that doomed it more than anything was the fact Nintendo themselves didn't support it. It was the exact same reason hat doomed Sega's 32x. The 32x was kinda cool, and probably could have been Sega's answer to the PS1 and so forth, but instead Sega ALSO released the Saturn and immediately severed support for the 32x. If a company won't support its own hardware 100% then its doomed to fail. That's really all there is to it.
Yeah, there's a reason why all the Nintendo games for the Virtual Boy only came from Yokoi's development teams. It kind of shows just how little faith the management at Nintendo actually had in the system. This is the tragic part of the Virtual Boy. Had Yokoi stopped development when it was clear the higher ups at Nintendo wanted him too, he'd be one of the top people at the company right now. Hell, considering the relationship and history he had with Yamauchi before the Virtual Boy, he probably could have had a decent shot at actually becoming the next president.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on March 13, 2010, 06:48:09 AM
Now he's getting drunk in an ally somewhere...
Poor guy...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 13, 2010, 07:03:23 AM
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2010, 07:53:00 AM
Had Yokoi stopped development when it was clear the higher ups at Nintendo wanted him too, he'd be one of the top people at the company right now.
That's of course assuming he didn't die in that tragic auto accident. Damn shame for such a great mind to die so soon. The virtual boy was his only blunder, but Nintendo apparently couldn't forgive him for that, even though everything else he did was Gold.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2010, 08:52:06 AM
That's standard in Japanese business. Whenever someone screws up majorly (lik he did with the Virtual Boy), they are put in the proverbial doghouse for awhile. He left Nintendo before they could forgive him though.
Luigi Dude, Choze is right. Yokoi himself decided to use only red rather than full color because it was just too expensive.
Chozo, how was the HD DVD add-on a bad idea? Microsoft wanted to support HD DVD, but they had already launched their system. So they released an ultra cheap add-on that could play the discs. I heard that the HD DVD add-on actually sold pretty wll.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 10:26:19 AM
The HD-DVD add-on failed miserably. And it was a terrible idea. I'm curious what you consider ultra-cheap because to me, $200 for an add-on is total bull sh*t.
It's not like Microsoft didn't know about HD-DVD before launching 360. They could have done more to support the format, but they didn't.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 13, 2010, 10:48:53 AM
If the 360 had INTEGRATED HD-DVD support then it is possible that format might have won the format war. The PS3 being a Blu-ray device had a significant role in that format's success.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2010, 10:51:02 AM
The HD DVD add-on did not fail miserably, you might want to do at least SOME research before spouting off false claims. First, the add-on had sold 150K units in the US after 2 months (which was more than Toshiba branded HD DVD players had sold in 6 months) at the $200 price point. The add-on sold over 316K units in the US by the time it ended (which is pretty good considering the relative failure of HD DVD). How was it a terrible idea? It gave people a cheap way to watch HD DVD movies (since HD DVD players were much more expensive). It was a good idea, and you can't claim it was a bad idea just because HD DVD failed.
Microsoft didn't want to delay the Xbox 360 just to add in HD DVD support (the first HD DVD player came out 5 months after the Xbox 360 launch). Microsoft, it obviously seems, was more concerned about hurting Sony than supporting one format. There were credible reports though that Microsoft was preparing to announce a Xbox 360 with the HD DVD player built-in at GDC 2008, but Toshiba announced it was ceasing supporting of the format 2 months earlier at CES.
As for calling it cheap, that is my bad. I forgot that it launched at $200. It was not ultra-cheap, but it was still much cheaper than regular HD DVD players (like how the PlayStation 3 was the cheapest Blu-ray Disc player for a long time).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 11:39:32 AM
The add-on didn't help the format from ultimately dying. You talk about research, I can search google too but shuffle numbers all you want, it failed. 316,000 units is a terrible number considering the total amount of 360 consoles sold at the time were in the millions (roughly 10 million in the US by February 2008 according to vgcharts). And you're comparing the add-on's sales to Toshiba's own HD-DVD players. That's like comparing a failing grade of 27 to a failing grade of 13. One is better than the other, but ultimately both are sub-70 failing grades.
And it was a terrible idea because Microsoft ultimately lost money which I suppose to them is a drop in the water. And again, the term "cheap" is relative. A consumer would have had to spend $500-$600 for a 360 + HD-DVD drive. I suppose it's a deal compared to a dedicated player, but still not really cheap.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2010, 11:51:30 AM
No, it didn't stop HD DVD from failing. It may have actually helped keep it around longer. Considering the price and the relatively low Xbox 360 userbase at the time, it's sales weren't that bad. Had it started at something like $100, it probably would have don even better. However, this was all dependent on HD DVD ding better too.
I back up my statement with facts. Where is your proof Microsoft lost money with it? Even using just US sales, Microsoft made $30 million in the first 2 months alone (after that it's difficult to measure because you can't tell how many were sold in between specific price cuts). Besides, something can be a good idea and still lose money.
Also, below 70 is not failing. Most schools use either 60 or 65 as the cutoff point for passing.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2010, 11:59:30 AM
I don't think MS intent was ever to fully support HDDVD and they only made the attachment to lessen the value of buying a PS3 as a Blu-ray player during a format war that could sink the PS3. If MS could help HD-DVD live long enough, then Blu-ray woulds suffer, which means PS3 would suffer and ultimately Sony would suffer. If MS had backed HD-DVD 100% with the Xbox 360 and HD-DVD had failed, then the XBox360 could sink right along with it.
MS was more confident in DD and streaming over any specific new disc based media format.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 12:31:53 PM
Considering the price and the relatively low Xbox 360 userbase at the time, it's sales weren't that bad.
In the US, approximately 3% of the 360 user base had the add-on by the time it was discontinued. You're grasping at straws, dude.
Quote
I back up my statement with facts. Where is your proof Microsoft lost money with it?
Because it failed. All of that unsold stock, a clearance price of $50 when it was discontinued. $50 didn't recoup the cost of the components and manufacturing, and even if it did (which, let's be honest, it didn't), Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by keeping the price so high. You don't need to go to business school to figure this out.
Quote
Also, below 70 is not failing. Most schools use either 60 or 65 as the cutoff point for passing.
Lulz... talk about missing the point...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 13, 2010, 03:08:07 PM
Because it failed. All of that unsold stock, a clearance price of $50 when it was discontinued. $50 didn't recoup the cost of the components and manufacturing, and even if it did (which, let's be honest, it didn't), Microsoft shot themselves in the foot by keeping the price so high. You don't need to go to business school to figure this out.
Um, so you don't have ANY evidence to back up your claim that Microsoft lost money on it? Let's be honest, it's likey they DID make money (unless you think the add-on cost them $100 million to make, which it almost certainly did not). They did not drop it to $50 until after Toshiba announced it was ending the HD DVD format, so Microsoft decided that dropping it to $50 would be the quickest way to clear out the remaining inventory. You keep acting like the HD DVD add-on was a failure just because HD DVD itself was. The add-on almost certainly made some profit for Microsoft, and Microsoft only discontinued it because it made no sense to keep manufacturing it after HD DVD ended.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 07:56:28 PM
You sure about that? Let's do some math. Roughly 316,000 HD-DVD drives sold by February 2008 divided by roughly 10 million Xbox 360 consoles sold by February 2008 (I got that number from vgcharts since you're such a damn stickler for research) is approximately 3% of the Xbox 360 user base with the HD-DVD add-on. My bad, it's 3.something %.... ::)
Quote
Um, so you don't have ANY evidence to back up your claim that Microsoft lost money on it?
And neither do you. See, Microsoft didn't make $30 million dollars in the first two months because you don't just multiply the number of units sold by it's price to get $30 million and call it a day. That's not pure profit because Microsoft didn't spend $0 on components and manufacturing (on top of research and development, marketing etc.). We don't even know if Microsoft broke even, sold at a loss, or made a small profit on each sale in those first 2 months. And even if they turned a profit, they still lost a hell of a lot more when they were cutting their losses selling the rest of their stock at $50. It's common sense not some fairy tale assumption where a company makes pure profit from a device they somehow spent absolutely nothing to make.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 13, 2010, 08:22:04 PM
You sure about that? Let's do some math. Roughly 316,000 HD-DVD drives sold by February 2008 divided by roughly 10 million Xbox 360 consoles sold by February 2008 (I got that number from vgcharts since you're such a damn stickler for research) is approximately 3% of the Xbox 360 user base with the HD-DVD add-on. My bad, it's 3.something %.... ::)
Quote
divided by roughly 10 million Xbox 360 consoles sold by February 2008 (I got that number from vgcharts since you're such a damn stickler for research)
Quote
(I got that number from vgcharts since you're such a damn stickler for research)
Quote
(number from vgcharts .... stickler for research)
Quote
(vgcharts .... research)
(http://i38.tinypic.com/2zg9fmq.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 08:43:43 PM
Oh, please. This is a message board, not a graduate thesis. I'm only going to go so far to prove a point. Vgchartz provided approximate numbers for units sold by date and territory (Next Gen Wars only gives total lifetime sales). If you would like to find Xbox 360 sales in the US between launch and February 2008 that disproves the extremely low attach rate percentage of the HD-DVD add-on, be my guest.
Additionally, the 316,000 HD-DVD units sold came from wikipedia and that's perfectly acceptable?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: ThePerm on March 13, 2010, 08:53:31 PM
Oh, please. This is a message board, not a graduate thesis. I'm only going to go so far to prove a point. Vgchartz provided approximate numbers for units sold by date and territory (Next Gen Wars only gives total lifetime sales). If you would like to find Xbox 360 sales in the US between launch and February 2008 that disproves the extremely low attach rate percentage of the HD-DVD add-on, be my guest.
Additionally, the 316,000 HD-DVD units sold came from wikipedia and that's perfectly acceptable?
TBH, I don't really care about the argument/debate you 2 are having over HD-DVD and how much it sold, I was just laughing that you called him a stickler for research and then cited VGChartz as a source of said "research".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 13, 2010, 09:29:38 PM
And if you can provided better numbers, you can be a snob about it....
I don't really like using sales data for debates (I do recall saying something about shuffling numbers earlier), but if he's going to use wikipedia and call me out for lack of evidence, then vgchartz is fair game.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: vudu on March 17, 2010, 03:36:26 PM
VGChartz is a perfectly credible source when looking up historical sales data. They might be be that accurate in telling you what something's going to sell this month but you can generally believe their historical data.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 17, 2010, 03:51:57 PM
Additionally, the 316,000 HD-DVD units sold came from wikipedia and that's perfectly acceptable?
Unlike VG Chartz, Wikipedia requires a reliable source for their info. For example, the 316,000 number comes from a NPD report on Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17006). I don't quote numbers unless a reliable source backs it up (so I never use VG Chartz). Please don't question me again. Whenever I use something from Wikipedia, I check to make sure it comes from a reliable source first.
Also, VG Chartz is not all that reliable for historical data either. Their problem is that they do fix the numbers that are publically known, but they still guess for the games they don't know (which is the vast majority. The US alone gets about 500 games a year, add in hundreds more that only come out in Japan or Europe). Basically any thing you see on VG Chartz should be taken with a grain of salt (meaning they are nice to look at, but you should not use them for real reports or when trying to prove a point on sales numbers).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 17, 2010, 05:41:33 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah.... wikipedia requires nothing. However, if you insist, find better numbers and you can be a snob about it. If you want to call shenanigans on vgchartz's historical sales data, prove that it's wrong and that Microsoft fewer than 10 million consoles.
And I'm still curious how you think Microsoft made a $30 million profit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 17, 2010, 06:08:07 PM
we've proved many times that VGChartz data is not to be trusted. You can always search for it on this board, we've even had a thread comparing their data with actual released data and watching how it was changed after the fact on the VGC site.
You want to know what something might have sold, then VGCz is your place, but if you are trying to make a point on what something has sold, and debating a point based on solid actual numbers, then you only discredit yourself by citing anything from VGCz.
It's common knowledge for anyone that follows sales at all. It goes all the way back to who the creator of the site is and how he would get called on all his BS "sources" and "numbers" all the time.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 17, 2010, 06:26:21 PM
I can be trusted. I'll give you numbers. My source is the Sales Thread.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 17, 2010, 06:59:04 PM
Yeah, yeah, yeah.... wikipedia requires nothing. However, if you insist, find better numbers and you can be a snob about it. If you want to call shenanigans on vgchartz's historical sales data, prove that it's wrong and that Microsoft fewer than 10 million consoles.
And I'm still curious how you think Microsoft made a $30 million profit.
Again, i'm not pulling random numbers or using a site that makes up numbers. I am the one using RELIABLE info.
Also, I never said that made $30 million in profit. I said they made $30 million (referring to revenue), and I even said it was just in the US and just in the first 2 months. I will concede though that it was probably around $25 million or so though (it was based on the number of systems sold times the price of the system).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Adrock on March 18, 2010, 05:51:17 PM
Alright, then use your reliable info to prove it wrong. That's all. Saying that number is wrong is completely different than proving that number is wrong with the correct one. I'll happily concede if you simply use your super sources to find different, supposedly more credible numbers that are no where near the number I pulled from vgchartz. You're the one making the claim so prove it. Point being, if you search your various sources and find out that Microsoft did actually end up selling approximately 10 million units in that time frame in the US then, ultimately, you accomplished nothing. This isn't really about vgchartz. All you've really done is shifted the focus away from the original claim that roughly 3% of Xbox 360 owners purchased the HD-DVD drive up until February 2008. I find this hilarious. In the end, even if you do pull a different number from your magic sources, I doubt it would be too far off from 10 million and therefore, won't change the fact that the HD-DVD drive reached a pathetically low percentage of the Xbox 360 install base at the time. It might not be 3% (it could be slightly more or less), but the adoption rate will still be really low.
I will concede though that it was probably around $25 million or so though (it was based on the number of systems sold times the price of the system).
See, that's not evidence then. You took 2 numbers and multiplied them, called it evidence then slammed me for lacking evidence.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 18, 2010, 07:04:56 PM
The 360 HDDVD drive add-on was unsuccessful, both commercially and in stopping the death of the format. The specifics are unimportant to this discussion.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 18, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
Adrock, you won't admit that your unreliable source should not be used and won't admit I am right (the comment on the $25 million was just me saying that I know that not all $30 million went to Microsoft, some went to retailers and a licensing fee went to the HD DVD Alliance).
Back on topic, I honestly hope Microsoft gets Natal to work the way they promised it would back at E3. It looked like it could be fun, and I would probably get it if it was $50 or less (although I doubt it will be).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 21, 2010, 12:53:37 PM
Do you live in a tiny apartment, small house or play your 360 in your bedroom?
Then it's time to buy a bigger house!!!
Natal needs more space!! (http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/03/notes_on_project_natal.html)
Quote
Some advice for any Xbox 360 owners thinking ahead to the launch of Microsoft's Project Natal later this year: You might want to see if you'll need to reconfigure your living room. After all, the motion-sensing control system is no sit-on-the-couch experience. You'll need some space to move your body and swing your arms without banging into the coffee table.
To be precise, you'll want to clear an area extending at least 4 meters (a little more than 13 feet) away from the television. That's the back edge of the space to be taken into account by the Natal sensors. In terms of width and height, the field of vision naturally expands as it moves from the Natal device to that back edge, ending up a little more than 4 meters wide and 2.7 meters high (about 8 feet, 10 inches).
Those were among the tidbits passed along by representatives of the Natal team during a briefing for a group of reporters and bloggers Monday on the company's Redmond campus. The session was part of a day-long technology discussion held by Craig Mundie, the company's chief research and strategy officer.
Natal, announced last year at the E3 video-game convention, is due out by the holidays. It's Microsoft's effort to bring its own "natural user interface" to the Xbox 360. It differs from Nintendo's Wii and Sony's upcoming Motion Controller, in that the camera system senses movement without requiring the gamer to hold a controller. (However, one of the details that emerged from the session is that controllers and accessories can be used in conjunction with moving around to add even more elements of control to games.)
During the Monday session, we quizzed Don Mattrick, who heads the company's video-game business as its senior vice president of interactive entertainment. Mattrick said the response from consumers in testing of Project Natal has been "off the charts." Mattrick said he's excited about the types of experiences that game developers are creating with the system, declining to go into details. He noted that Natal is also getting interest from the broader entertainment industry, citing as an example Steven Spielberg's early endorsement.
The session included lots of technical details on the Natal device, including its three sensors for measuring the depth of the room, capturing the gamer's movement and ensuring adequate light. The machine-learning system can also tell where parts of your body should be even if they aren't visible to the camera, such as an arm tucked behind your back. (Technical phrase: "Extremity occlusion resilient.")
The Natal team says the device requires less in the way of processing than the average smartphone, because they wanted to leave as much processing as possible available to the game itself.
As for the price? Mattrick wouldn't say, but he predicted that it won't be as much as consumers who have tested the device might expect, given the amount of fun they say they're having. Microsoft has created the Natal device with off-the-shelf components, which has the effect of keeping costs down and positioning the company to take advantage of broader industry advances in vision technology and sensors. "We're going to drive the business, and make it scale, and make it profitable," Mattrick said.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: King of Twitch on March 21, 2010, 06:55:54 PM
AT LEAST 13 feet? That leaves Japan out.
What a boondoggle.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on March 21, 2010, 11:35:17 PM
Yup... my apt is large for Japan, but I do most gaming about 3-4 feet away from my TV; if I clear out the room to make space, I might have about 8-10 available....
(note that the wii also has these issue a bit, but can be coaxed to work in small spaces)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on March 22, 2010, 12:44:33 PM
13 feet? I got like maybe 10 to work with unless I reconfigure the arrangement of my room. I own a house so I have the space but I would have to rearrange everything.
Natal just becomes more pathetic with each reveal. MS, just rip off the Wii remote like Sony did. This controllerless idea is just not going to work. I don't think people even really WANT it to work.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on March 22, 2010, 02:36:12 PM
It can't really be 13 ft. That sounds unrealistic.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: vudu on March 22, 2010, 02:37:41 PM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: GearBoxClock on March 22, 2010, 03:27:23 PM
Alas poor Natal, I didn't care, Horatio.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 22, 2010, 03:48:07 PM
13 feet will eliminate almost everyone. I think my bedroom is MAYBE 13 feet (wall to wall), and the only possible room that could work is my living room (which isn't an option).
Also, doesn't using off the shelf parts prevent Microsoft from being able to lower the cost of Natal? That is one of the reasons the Xbox never made a profit, it used off the shelf parts and that prevented Microsoft from being able to lower the cost to them of producing the system.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 22, 2010, 04:34:32 PM
13 feet will eliminate almost everyone. I think my bedroom is MAYBE 13 feet (wall to wall), and the only possible room that could work is my living room (which isn't an option).
Also, doesn't using off the shelf parts prevent Microsoft from being able to lower the cost of Natal? That is one of the reasons the Xbox never made a profit, it used off the shelf parts and that prevented Microsoft from being able to lower the cost to them of producing the system.
They may have already realized what a colossal failure this thing is going to be and decided that if it's going to flop anyway there's no point in going to the trouble to design custom hardware for it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 22, 2010, 06:14:23 PM
Has anyone ever stopped to take a minute and find out exactly what the word Natal even means? I just looked on Wiktionary.org, and this is what I found for Natal:
Etymology 2
From Latin natis (“‘rump’”), plural nates Adjective natal (comparative more natal, superlative most natal)
1. Of or relating to the buttocks.
So in other words, Natal basically means "Ass".
Project Natal = Project Ass or Project Butt
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 25, 2010, 07:59:51 PM
Looks like MS is gonna hold 2 events at this years E3.
Sunday, the day/night before E3, they are having the "Natal Experience" and then the usual E3 Press Conference Monday morning
Quote
Microsoft to hold E3 press conference plus Natal “experience” event Aaron Greenberg has just tweeted that Microsoft is to hold a press conferences at E3 this year, along with “Project Natal” experience on that Sunday.
Here’s the tweet:
Just 1 press conference on Monday morning, Sunday night is a “Project Natal” experience, not a press conference.
The world premiere of Project Natal for Xbox 360 Experience will take place Sunday, June 13 at the USC Galen Center, and on Monday morning, MS will hold its Xbox 360 Media Briefing at the Wiltern Theater.
“We’re gearing up for a really exciting E3 and wanted to share some key dates to put on your calendar,” said Greenberg. “More details to come.”
Quote
Xbox production boss Aaron Greenberg has told VG247 that Microsoft’s just-announced E3 Natal event on Sunday, June 13 will be an “all ages” affair designed to show “the universal appeal of Xbox 360″.
“We’re gearing up for a really exciting E3 – unlike any E3 we’ve ever had before,” said the exec, speaking moments after confirmation of Microsoft’s E3 press plans.
“As you may have heard, our traditional news briefing is on the morning of Monday, June 14. Additionally, as a kick off to the week, we will be hosting a can’t-miss exclusive “Project Natal” World Premiere experience designed for all ages and demonstrating the universal appeal of Xbox 360 on Sunday evening.
“We’ll have more details on both events and additional media opportunities for Xbox 360 at E3 in the coming months, but wanted to get the word out now as you make your plans.”
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 31, 2010, 03:41:21 PM
Ok. Now I've never been sold on Natal or gesture based controlerless solutions, but these 3 videos just showed me ho much of a disaster Natal could be.
These 3 videos show how we take something that is familiar and simple(even if complicated by too many buttons at times) and make it even more complex with needless movements and complicated menu systems that actually seem more frustrating than pushing a few buttons.
and in other news, Primesense is still being used in Natal
Quote
PrimeSense™ supplies 3D-sensing technology to 'Project Natal' for Xbox 360 Ground-Breaking Optical Sensing and Recognition Technologies to Aid Gesture Control Platform
source: http://www.primesense.com/category/media
Their video isn't all that convincing either.
I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 31, 2010, 05:41:56 PM
I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.
On the other hand, it would be really fun if you're the sort of person that likes to mess with people and deliberately screw up what they're doing just for kicks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on March 31, 2010, 10:08:50 PM
Ok. Now I've never been sold on Natal or gesture based controlerless solutions, but these 3 videos just showed me ho much of a disaster Natal could be.
These 3 videos show how we take something that is familiar and simple(even if complicated by too many buttons at times) and make it even more complex with needless movements and complicated menu systems that actually seem more frustrating than pushing a few buttons.
and in other news, Primesense is still being used in Natal
Quote
PrimeSense™ supplies 3D-sensing technology to 'Project Natal' for Xbox 360 Ground-Breaking Optical Sensing and Recognition Technologies to Aid Gesture Control Platform
source: http://www.primesense.com/category/media
Their video isn't all that convincing either.
I can already see all the fights over someone behind the couch changing the channel, ot someone yelling and turning the TV off and any number of other issues solved by one person being in control of the actual remote.
The fundamental idea that the Natal product concept is constantly missing out on is selling an "ENTERTAINING EXPERIENCE" to the consumer.
Wii sold a "tennis" experience, a "bowling" experience, etc. (that people did enjoy).
Natal is selling... spasms for TV control?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on April 01, 2010, 01:53:41 AM
Man, that menu navigating looks incredibly arduous. No thanks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on April 01, 2010, 12:04:25 PM
Well I guess I should dissect this piece by piece....
First of all, that first video was the worst technically but was still my favorite because it linked me to this VIDEO (NSFW) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWPxENqTSpA&feature=channel)
The second video looked much better and less responsive to everyday hand gestures, yet more responsive to deliberate hand gestures. I guess what I'm saying is, there's less of a middle ground....which is good.
That third video, while interesting, could never work that like. How in the hell did he pick the channel he wanted just by pushing forward?
Either way, even though I'm skeptical, I think there really is potential for this kind of technology, although I don't think we'll see something revolutionary till a few years down the line. For instance, I would love to control my computer or iphone device without smudging the screen.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 01, 2010, 12:53:16 PM
get a mouse or a touch screen that uses a stylus?
But I think the best thing that will come from Natal, will be advances in face/voice recognition for everyday uses and behind the scenes advancements in gesture/fullbody recognition.
The former will be used for advanced security in everyday items, like ATMs, credit card machines and things like that. While the latter has a long way to go before someone finds a compelling way to make the tech useful and not just a more complex way to do something that is already simple enough(push up, down or a number button).
Rare says that they will define the Natal Experience, so I hope they blow me away and make me see the light, because at this point, Sony's middle ground tech has the most potential at actually being useful for the field it's being used in. Gaming.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on April 01, 2010, 12:59:56 PM
Use a mouse instead of simply clicking what you want? Who uses a mouse when not at work?
Use a stylus? Seems incredibly archaic. Who uses a stylus anymore other than for the DS?
I just kinda imagined using an iphone and flipping through pages of apps without actually touching it. The camera would capture your fingers and have a transparent onscreen representation.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 01, 2010, 01:07:14 PM
use a 3DS ;) the menu seemingly floats just off the screen and the 2 motion tracking cameras track your finger or a stylus (that also vibrates when you touch the menu options). It's gonna be sweet.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 15, 2010, 03:23:08 PM
See what Natal Sees (http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/15/microsoft-gives-us-a-look-through-project-natals-eyes-video/2#c27153660)
Quote from: Engadget
Ilan Spillinger, Microsoft's Xbox 360 VP, was on hand in Tel Aviv yesterday for a showcase of Project Natal. Although there wasn't much in the way of groundbreaking stuff, the resulting video does show off the motion control system's gender recognition (done through Natal's facial recognition ... you filthy child) and ability to track two players within the frame at the same time. A tipster from the audience tells us that earlier lag issues have been eradicated, although some jitter was indeed apparent when the second person stepped into Natal's field of vision. Either way, it's looking like Microsoft's Xbox 360 peripheral is progressing well toward its release near the end of this year. Go past the break to see for yourself.
video @ the link above
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on April 15, 2010, 03:39:08 PM
I wouldn't call that lag eradicated. That imagery is coming from raw (body to camera to screen) capture feeds, so the input hasn't been processed/interpretted enough (delay) to generate actual (brand new) in-game movements. It's very much like a camcorder displaying you on a TV in an electronics store, which creates a similar amount of delay.
At best, it's as responsive as the worst IR pointer games on Wii.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on April 15, 2010, 05:52:26 PM
Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong. :) This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road. You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt. I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on April 15, 2010, 06:21:46 PM
Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong. :) This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road. You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt. I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.
it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 15, 2010, 06:36:41 PM
Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong. :) This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road. You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt. I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.
it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple
That doesn't mean anything, because contrary to belief women also have that and if you're overweight it probably isn't visible regardless.
The only GUARANTEED way to make a gender authentication is to look between the legs. But even then, sometimes its not so clear cut...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on April 15, 2010, 06:42:28 PM
thanks for shooting down my post because i decided to take the high ground and NOT go down THAT road.. I'll be more crude from now on.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on April 15, 2010, 08:18:38 PM
Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong. :) This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road. You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt. I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.
it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple
That doesn't mean anything, because contrary to belief women also have that and if you're overweight it probably isn't visible regardless.
The only GUARANTEED way to make a gender authentication is to look between the legs. But even then, sometimes its not so clear cut...
This post was unneeded.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Shorty McNostril on April 15, 2010, 09:34:13 PM
I can see nothing but disaster in Natal's future.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: nickmitch on April 17, 2010, 02:13:39 AM
This gender thing reminds me of the time WiiFit called little girls fat.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: KDR_11k on April 17, 2010, 04:33:07 AM
Gender recognition is going to be real self-esteem squasher if it guesses your gender wrong. :) This morning on the way to work some "it" walked across the road. You know the type - overweight, clean shaven, youthful face, unisex haircut, clad in athletic shoes, sweatpants and a baggy t-shirt. I wonder what Natal would guess for that person since I, a fellow human being, was stumped.
it'll ask you to tilt your head back to scan for an adams apple
That won't work with Ann Coulter.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on April 17, 2010, 10:05:57 AM
so i suppose in the end, it's gonna have to be "Please strip, spread your legs, and jump around a lot; be sure to squarely face the camera in your Natal® unit."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 17, 2010, 11:40:28 AM
"Turn around, bend over and spread your cheeks"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: mac<censored> on April 17, 2010, 09:45:55 PM
But what Dave and I really wanted to do was play the Natal. Yes, it’s true – I had a bad experience working for XBox a year ago. However, I still think it’s the best gaming platform out there and was excited about what I heard about the Natal. For those of you who don’t know, the Natal works like this: You stand in front of the camera eye and it senses you’re there. An avatar appears on screen, and it moves exactly as you do. There is no controller you need to hold like in the Wii. It senses all of your movements right down to your hands and feet. First I played a game kicking and whacking balls into targets. You have to use your entire body to play. I absolutely loved it. Being a gamer since I was a kid, I was really struck by the amount of physical exertion it took. It’s amazing exercise and, because of that, I think it’s going to be a much better device for people’s health in general. As hyperbolic as it may sound, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years we see a decrease in childhood obesity simply because of the system. For that alone, I think it’s the biggest step forward in gaming in a long, long time. But, despite that, the game was fun as hell.
Then Dave took his turn at the ball-whacking game. I realized one of the benefits of the Natal is that your friends look ridiculous while playing it.
Then Dave and I played River Rush together. It’s a game where you stand side by side in a river raft, so it’s two people playing at once. To move right, you have to step right; to move left, you have to step left. As you rush down right rapids, you have to jump up and slap floating stars in the air – the whole raft jumps up every time you do. This game was even more exhilarating than the kicking one, and even more aerobically challenging. In fact, I’d say the ONLY drawback to the Natal some people may have is that you have to get up off your ass to play it. But, for me, a person who likes exercise and gaming, it’s sort of a dream come true. An hour of playing Natal every night will definitely burn calories.
Dave’s avatar was a girl during River Rush, probably because Dave feels like a little princess inside, and I suddenly realized how awesome it would be for my avatar to molest Dave’s. As my avatar rubbed its crotch against Dave’s avatar’s ass the Microsoft folks started laughing and said that was the first time they had seen anyone do that. I was extremely proud of myself. I’m sure millions of little assholes will follow in the wake of my avatar-raping, but I want it to be noted in my Wikipedia page that I was the very first.
Remmeber the lawsuit about the girl that felt harassed in Home by the avatar humping? Bring on the lawsuits..... especially since the person raping you(and your avatar) is gonna be in your living room with you!!! Better watch your back.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 18, 2010, 12:36:09 AM
"SIDE-KICK FOUNDED TO CREATE MOTION CONTROLED GAMES FOR NEXT-GENERATION GAME CONSOLES AND DIGITAL LIVINGROOMS" (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/57695/SIDEKICK_FOUNDED_TO_CREATE_MOTION_CONTROLED_GAMES_FORNEXTGENERATION_GAME_CONSOLES_AND_DIGITAL_LIVINGROOMS.php) by an ex(?)-EIDOS & Primesense (people behind the Natal camera tech) employees so you know what they are actually making games for.
Here is their first game: Mini-Demons http://www.sidekick.co.il/games/ <--Pic @ the Link
Quote
Mini Demons is a game where you play the ball in a cartoonish pinball-like environment. In Mini Demon you play the role of a shape shifting Demon locked inside a colorful and crazy world build of spheres. Each sphere is unique and marvelous 3D environments build with pinball-like mechanics. Your goal is to pick up energy balls that float in the world by switching between a ball shape (Jump, roll) a star shape (Sky dive) and Demon (walk). Your mission is to get to the core sphere and lock the riddle of the world you are in a world filled with paddles, ramps, wind tubes and other fun obstacles . The game is totally immersive as your movements in front of the monitor are controlling the Demon as it flies, jumps and rolls toward the core of its world.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: D_Average on April 18, 2010, 03:06:31 PM
This actually looks pretty fun. Simple yet exhilarating. Assuming the controls work. Ya heard? http://www.joystiq.com/2010/04/18/natal-game-river-rush-revealed-by-film-writer-james-gunn/
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on April 19, 2010, 01:29:40 PM
Those Natal impressions remind me of early Wii impressions where the "gee whiz" factor is so high that the person doesn't think about what it would be like to play a full-lengthed game like this. Or what it would be like to make sure you always had enough free space in your living room just to play videogames.
Good for Natal for being responsive, I suppose. But it sounds just as hollow and gimmicky as all motion control thus far. So Natal is good at shallow party games. So what? How is that any different than what Nintendo already did with Wii Sports? How does this improve games with actual depth and complexity and length? That's what I need to see.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 27, 2010, 12:03:36 AM
New Natal video showing the over involved menu interaction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KTmssVLHxw
seriously, I'll take a couch and a wiimote any day of the week over 360degree full extension arm maneuvering to activate buttons on the screen.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Spak-Spang on April 27, 2010, 10:53:05 PM
I don't know if it has been mentioned.
I read a rumor that Metal Gear Solid is being worked for Project Natal....and the question I have is how? Those games used every single button combination possible, and was complicated as all get out with a control. How do you even attempt to make the game with Project Natal?
There must be some sort of small controller that goes with the system....it is something that just hasn't been announced yet.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: TJ Spyke on April 27, 2010, 10:56:31 PM
Actually, it seems like MGS would be really simple to use with Natal (at least if it is like the original MGS, which is the only one i've played).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 27, 2010, 11:23:32 PM
I read a rumor that Metal Gear Solid is being worked for Project Natal....and the question I have is how? Those games used every single button combination possible, and was complicated as all get out with a control. How do you even attempt to make the game with Project Natal?
There must be some sort of small controller that goes with the system....it is something that just hasn't been announced yet.
I swear I posted that rumor here a day or so ago. It was supposedly from Surfergirl saying that..... hold on. I think I know where I posted it.
edit: found it http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30877.msg604055#msg604055 (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=30877.msg604055#msg604055)
anyway, you can use Natal and the 360 controller at the same time. It might just use hand gestures for grabbing an enemy from behind or throwing grenades and voice controls for radio or some other unnatural replacement for pushing a button.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 01, 2010, 02:01:19 AM
Rare's George Andreas to Present Develop 2010 Design Keynote on Project Natal Title Rare set to reveal secrets of its first Natal game.
US, April 29, 2010 - In his presentation – The Future IS Controller-Free Games and Entertainment – Andreas will talk candidly about how Rare has created one of the premier launch titles for 'Project Natal' and the challenges faced regarding the new design philosophy at the studio. He warns: "Everything you've learnt over the last 25 years – throw it away!"
He will also take a brief look at Rare's last foray into the physical play space from yesteryear, and outline Rare's vision for the future of physical based gaming.
To register for Develop in Brighton, please visit www.developconference.com (http://www.developconference.com/)
Please follow us on www.twitter.com/developconf2010 (http://www.twitter.com/developconf2010) and join us at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=316206247580 (http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=316206247580)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 01, 2010, 04:22:48 AM
Some impressions that just verify to me why (based on teh same demo they've been showing since reveal) Natal will not catch on.
I don't see people playing this (same game at least) for more than 5 minutes and then packing it away.
MS & Rare really better bring something sweet to the table with this because this is just a bunch of people looking like fools dancing in front of camera.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: nickmitch on May 01, 2010, 04:51:06 PM
Using a 360 controller with Natal defeats the whole purpose. With both my hands occupied, what am I supposed to do? Kick with my feet? Nod my head? At that point, you're just adding buttons.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 01, 2010, 05:33:57 PM
Using a 360 controller with Natal defeats the whole purpose. With both my hands occupied, what am I supposed to do? Kick with my feet? Nod my head? At that point, you're just adding buttons.
I agree, but it doesn't make it any less true. There will be Natal games that use the controller then use voice controls, hand gestures and many other awkward movements to somehow be able to claim Natal support.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 01, 2010, 06:00:00 PM
Might as well play soccer with handcuffs on.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2010, 03:13:35 PM
Couldn't they just have you set the controller down for parts of the game that would require NATAL? I remember in No More Heroes there were minigames that required the controller to be turned on its side, so at that point you had to let go of the nunchuck. It wasn't like they required you to hold onto something you weren't using at that particular moment.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 02, 2010, 08:14:32 PM
Chozo Ghost, they could. But Natal is supposed to eliminate the controller...to make it feel more natural, not like you are playing a game where you must pickup, put down controls, that misses the point.
The Wii is different. Nintendo, never attempted to eliminate the control or even the notion of using a control...but modified the concept of a controller to use motion as an input device. In fact it seems Wii actually has made the controller more apparent in its games and philosophy. You must know what games use what controller and how you want to play it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 03, 2010, 12:36:55 AM
Natal is supposed to eliminate the living room, and without one there'd be no place to set down your controller.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ian Sane on May 03, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
Everyone saw the holodeck in Star Trek and thought it was the coolest thing in the world. The problem is the technological leap between sitting on the couch with a controller in your hand and being IN THE GAME is huge. To get to the holodeck there has to be all sorts of half-baked **** in between. Natal sounds like it will be a prime example of that.
I think the closer we get to a theoretical holodeck the WORSE things will be. We'll get further away from the reliable old method but not close enough yet to the holodeck where things will be really smooth. There will be this long middle part of the journey that will outright SUCK. The Wii's motion control has its share of problems where the damn remote misinterprets what you wanted to do or the "motion control" is so blantantly a digital button press mapped to a gesture that it kills the illusion for anyone that notices it. But we're still very close to the old method. By ditching the controller Natal is going further into the wasteland of controller suckiness.
The question is will videogames make it through the wastleland of controller suckiness? Will people accept Natal as a flawed step on the way to the holodeck or will we just not be willing to go through the in-between phase?
You could consider the Virtual Boy as an example of a step towards the holodeck that failed.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 03, 2010, 01:49:22 PM
I think we'll go Matrix instead of Holodeck.
It will become a complete virtual experience vs a physical experience in a virtual illusion setting.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 03, 2010, 02:42:29 PM
Holodecks will require janitors, just sayin'.
The HoloHotel cleaning lady will definitely see what you left behind.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Stogi on May 03, 2010, 03:10:00 PM
I honestly would like to see a conducting game like the one in Wii music. But since it can actually recognize my hand gestures and not just the tempo at which I move my hand, it could be interesting to see if I could bring the violins out or silence the percussion.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 03, 2010, 03:52:30 PM
The HoloHotel cleaning lady will definitely see what you left behind.
Not unless the holodeck collects your leavings and then uses it in the replicator to become things like your dinner for the evening. I think that's how it worked in Star Trek.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 03, 2010, 04:07:41 PM
Mmmmmm every meal is Protein Enriched!!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 03, 2010, 11:07:19 PM
LOL Watch this kids Natal avatar river dance while he tries to play Breakout (~1:07 & ~2:32) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjfhg2WKPQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQjfhg2WKPQ)
p.s. Holy Rack of Lamb Badman!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: EasyCure on May 04, 2010, 11:32:49 PM
Actually, it seems like MGS would be really simple to use with Natal (at least if it is like the original MGS, which is the only one i've played).
yeah, you just sit there and watch. When natal notices your head dip the exclamation chime will sound... **** you i don't care how late this joke is!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 05, 2010, 12:31:07 PM
There's like nowhere to setup this gimmick in the average home.
We don't live like artificial families in homes they don't own created for TV commercials.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: Ymeegod on May 08, 2010, 01:15:35 AM
"Using a 360 controller with Natal defeats the whole purpose. With both my hands occupied, what am I supposed to do? Kick with my feet? Nod my head? At that point, you're just adding buttons."
Actually, there's alot you can do with it. In FPS you can control your character's stance instead of trying to bind it all on a controller (like lean left/duck/crouch, ect). Someone stated hand signals and even secondary functions like reloading and grenades tossing.
Of course in the end it's up to the developers to make something like this work but it is promising.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 11, 2010, 02:25:08 AM
Microsoft confirms October worldwide launch for Project Natal http://www.vg247.com/2010/05/11/microsoft-confirms-october-worldwide-launch-for-project-natal/
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Stogi on May 12, 2010, 03:22:00 PM
Black and white would be sick on Natal.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 13, 2010, 05:08:15 PM
Looks like MS has hired MTV to cover their Natal performance @ E3 (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/MTV-Networks-Announces-prnews-2567587948.html?x=0&.v=1)
Quote
MTV Networks, a division of Viacom (NYSE: VIA, VIA.B), today announced a broad-ranging, first-of-its-kind programming partnership with Microsoft Corp. for Electronic Entertainment Expo 2010 (E3 Expo 2010), the video game industry's leading trade show. For the first time, only MTV Networks will take viewers inside the spectacular controller-free games and entertainment with "The World Premiere of 'Project Natal' for Xbox 360" experience, a spectacular live performance imagined by Cirque du Soleil, and live to the Xbox 360 Media Briefing for game announcements, world premieres and breaking news on the future of the Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system.
"We look forward to making entertainment history again at E3 Expo 2010 and can't think of a better partner than MTV Networks to exclusively share our news, experiences and Cirque du Soleil's amazing creativity with an entirely new audience," said Don Mattrick, senior vice president, Interactive Entertainment Business, Entertainment and Devices Division at Microsoft.
"Project Natal is one of the most exciting new product launches of the year, and MTV Networks is the perfect partner to bring this one-of-a-kind event from Xbox and Cirque du Soleil to its viewers and passionate gamers all across the country," said Rich Eigendorff, chief operating officer, MTV Networks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 13, 2010, 05:12:13 PM
MTV is selling out to the Man.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on May 13, 2010, 05:24:05 PM
Is Cirque du Soleil supposed to distract you or something? I don't understand how they're supposed to be involved. If Natal was really such an innovative product, I'd like to use the time to show just how and why it's so great. This is another example of style over substance, but I'll withhold my judgments until the games are shown.
Oh, and is this a hint to a possible Carnival Games port to Natal?
(I realize Cirque du Soleil is nothing like a traditional carnival, so don't bother with that)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 13, 2010, 05:55:37 PM
MTV already admitted that the M shouldn't stand for music anymore(not in those words though) since they don't play any, so maybe they are just repurposing that M to stand for Microsoft.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Shaymin on May 13, 2010, 11:32:18 PM
Also, the Microsoft conference is on MTV's younger, drunken brother Spike TV.
Hoping the Nintendo conference gets the same treatment but I highly doubt it. It'd be more likely to end up on CBS.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 14, 2010, 01:16:26 AM
MTV already admitted that the M shouldn't stand for music anymore(not in those words though) since they don't play any, so maybe they are just repurposing that M to stand for Microsoft.
Yeah, its just like how the Scifi channel renamed themselves into Syfy not long after they started airing professional wrestling and other stuff like that which doesn't fit into the scifi category. Its a pet peeve of mine when cable channels don't live up to their names like that...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on May 15, 2010, 01:55:51 AM
ALSO WHEN THEY CANCEL MYSTERY SCIENCE THEATER, I HATE WHEN CABLE CHANNELS DO THAT TOO
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: nickmitch on May 15, 2010, 02:10:43 AM
And what's with all the live action on the CARTOON Network? Huh? HUH?!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 15, 2010, 05:59:39 AM
From NeoGAF
Quote from: Vinterbird
So after Microsoft debunked the Saudi-Arabia guy saying it is coming in October, they held a Natal event for Scandinavian press yesterday. Here's what the biggest Danish television and radio channel was told:
- First week of october - Around 1000 Danish Kroner (170 dollars, but note that everything in Europe costs around 25-40% more then in the US) - 15 Natal games at launch (first and third party total). Sports games, casual and kids games. No mention of hardcore stuff - They're doing a world wide Natal tour to kill off any rumor of it being slow and unresponsive, letting the mainstream press play it without any restrictions.
There's apperantly a video coming soon, as they are going to make a story on TV about it.
Yeah, its just like how the Scifi channel renamed themselves into Syfy not long after they started airing professional wrestling
Yeah, that is not quite accurate with the wrestling part. They started airing ECW on Sci Fi in June 2006, they didn't change their channel's name until July 2009. Even now they only have a couple of non-sci fi programs, the bulk of their lineup is still shows like Stargate Universe and b-grade sci fi movies.
I agree with your general point though. It's like when The Learning Channel became just TLC and started airing mostly crap realty shows like Jon ad Kate Plus 8 rather than educational shows.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2010, 03:05:01 PM
Yeah, and what's the deal with everything on the so called History channel being about Hitler, Bigfoot, UFOs, Nostradamus, Aliens, etc? Well, Hitler is historical, but what about the rest? Geez.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 17, 2010, 12:19:40 PM
Swedish Game Sites Say: Natal Cost ~$200 (http://kotaku.com/5540223/swedish-retailers-spill-project-natal-price-and-its-expensive) and that matches up with the last price story 2 post up (~$170)
Quote
At least three Swedish retailers are listing a price for upcoming Xbox 360 motion controller Project Natal, and it's not good.
While UK sources were telling MCV that the motion controller would run $80, perhaps less, the three Swedish retail sites are all listing the device for 1,499 SEK, which works out to just under a whopping $200. Now keep in mind a $60 game runs nearly $80, but that's still a pretty penny if it's correct.
There's also a very strong possibility that this is a placeholder price. I certainly hoping that's the case, but I don't see a lot of people lining up to buy a peripheral that costs as much as the console that uses it.
Using the game pricing for a base hat would put Natal pricing at about $150 US and that better means it comes with someone to stand up and play the thing for me too.
Between this and the rumored pricing of the Move Controller($60) (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=29445.msg607640#msg607640), It's a choice between upgrading your current console for for motion controls for near the price of a Wii or getting into HD motion gaming for about twice the price of a Wii that comes with 2 games.
Hardly seems massmarketable to the casual crowd we though they were aiming for and if true, I expect both of these to fail and next gen to come as expected (no generation extension thanks to motion controls) in 2012 at the latest (for PS360.... I still expect Nintendo to Show off a Wii2H3D in 2011)
edit: Pics of and to the links to the Swedish sites http://i42.tinypic.com/okzaex.jpg (http://i42.tinypic.com/okzaex.jpg) / http://www.game.se/acatalog/NATAL_360_Xbox_360.html (http://www.game.se/acatalog/NATAL_360_Xbox_360.html) http://i40.tinypic.com/2v19l54.jpg (http://i40.tinypic.com/2v19l54.jpg) / http://www.webhallen.com/spel/xbox_360/106446-microsoft-natal (http://www.webhallen.com/spel/xbox_360/106446-microsoft-natal) http://i41.tinypic.com/2wlwkmq.jpg (http://i41.tinypic.com/2wlwkmq.jpg) / http://cdon.se/spel/microsoft_-_natal_%28working_title%29-8564232 (http://cdon.se/spel/microsoft_-_natal_%28working_title%29-8564232)
edit2: Robbie Bach comment from last year on Natal pricing http://gizmodo.com/5375477/project-natal-is-gonna-be-priced-like-a-console
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 17, 2010, 04:21:31 PM
Next gen starts now!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 17, 2010, 11:20:35 PM
Well, I actually see what Microsoft's plans are IF they are smart and looking towards the future.
Project Natal must be viewed as an add on device like all other add on devices...which given that track record would hint that complete failure. However, if the idea is to introduce new types of gaming and hopefully take some thunder and hype away from the Wii it may be a good Trojan horse leading into the next generation.
Why?
Because the next generation Microsoft can make Natal compatible with the new console and have motion control ready to go without increasing the cost of the console too much, and keeping the core Xbox 3, a gamers console. By that time Natal may be cheaper to produce allowing for a bundled system with the console, or a cheaper one for those who already made the investment.
Will this concept work? Maybe...though truthfully I have my doubts, because if initial reaction to Project Natal is poor for any reasons, then seeing it apart of the new console will be detrimental. However, the reverse is not true...seeing Project Natal as being compatible just seems like something that should be done.
Just like I expect the Wii accessories to be compatible with Wii 2, even though I expect a new (better) motion controller to be released with the system. I expect the classic controllers, Wii Balanced Board, and such to still work.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 18, 2010, 07:13:55 AM
Microsoft has been making operating systems for 30 some years, and they've yet to get them refined and stable. If they can't make a stable OS in 30+ years, then how in the world can they ever refine NATAL before the next generation?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 18, 2010, 12:00:53 PM
If they get something right the first time, they can't sell new revisions down the road. Nintendo learned from the best.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 18, 2010, 12:19:25 PM
It's similar to medicine.
You don't want to cure the disease because there no money in a cure. You want sell a treatment, because then you have a customer for life.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Stogi on May 18, 2010, 04:38:50 PM
This is going to be greatest/funniest e3 of all time.
Where's Rabicle when you need him?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 18, 2010, 05:29:49 PM
I'll have to summon him.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 19, 2010, 12:31:19 AM
To be far. The Xbox division is completely different from the Windows division...and the Xbox 360 was one of the most complete console experiences conceived. It was very well polished except for the red ring of death. Which, should have been avoided. Still, the overall experience of the console was brilliant.
Xbox doesn't really need to do much but refine the experience and upgrade the technology for the next generation and gamers will be happy.
Title: Natal To Cost $149.....
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 26, 2010, 08:53:34 PM
EDGE Online: Natal To Cost $149 (http://www.edge-online.com/news/natal-to-cost-149-%E2%80%93-source) Looks like preNatal is more Still-born
Quote
Natal will launch in the US this October with a price tag of $149.
That’s according to a trusted source (http://www.edge-online.com/news/first-gears-of-war-3-gameplay-details), who told us that the motion sensing camera will also be bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade console for $299.
We were informed that prices outside of the US would be determined based on a number of factors, including exchange rates. Based on current rates, the standalone unit would retail for £103 / €121, and the console and Natal bundle for £207 / €243.
The figure for the standalone unit is significantly higher than a previous sub-£50 estimate, but less than pricing recently suggested by European retailers. It’s also more expensive than Sony’s Natal rival Move, which will be available later this year with a game for less than $100.
Our source said that the device has been pencilled in for an October 26 worldwide launch, although we were advised that the date could yet shift by a few weeks either way.
We were also told Microsoft’s camera definitely won’t be called Natal and that its proper title will be revealed at E3 next month. It will also be heavily targeted at causal players and families.
“Microsoft expects to sell millions and millions of Natal units in its first year on the market so you can expect the software launch line-up to target non-traditional gamers,” our source said. “A major marketing campaign will also play a key role in attracting and educating the expanded audience about Xbox 360’s controller-free revolution.”
When contacted about this report, Microsoft told us that it "does not comment on rumour or speculation”.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: ShyGuy on May 26, 2010, 09:02:07 PM
This will be the biggest peripheral flop since Tony Hawk ride. The only thing that can save it is a killer app on the level of Wii Fit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 26, 2010, 09:33:11 PM
I'm wary of anonymous sources and anything they say.
If the rumor is true, then $150 will kill it. The only way I could see this having a chance at succeeding is if it was $100 or less. If they really do make it $150, they better include a game with it (a real game, not just a tech demo. I DO want them to include the demos from E3 2009 too though).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: nickmitch on May 26, 2010, 11:49:09 PM
Natal Sports Resort?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 27, 2010, 01:15:48 AM
Is this compatible with the HD-DVD addon?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2010, 12:20:06 PM
I don't get why they would specifically target this at casuals and families. If you want that the Wii is RIGHT THERE. It's cheaper and already has a selection of proven casual titles in the Wii series. The Xbox 360's niche is that it isn't a casual focused console. It's the ideal choice for the hardcore gamer. Anyone who wants a Wii, has a Wii. The Xbox 360 and the PS3 are for gamers that want something more than what Nintendo offers.
One of the big criticisms against motion control is that it is only used as a stupid gimmick for casual focused titles. It has yet to really been proven as something worthwhile for core games. I would guess that there is a market for that. The Conduit had all sorts of hype entirely because it was an FPS that used the remote, and it's a total nothing title. The demand is there and Nintendo isn't meeting it so there's the niche. But instead they're just going for the same market the Wii already has locked down. And no one but hardcore gamers will want to pay for an X360 and Natal. The price is too high for casuals and if they aim at casuals hardcore gamers will want nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 27, 2010, 12:40:59 PM
You're a total nothing gamer.
I guess with all the high speed mobile internet plans they have these days, you can continue living under your rock.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: vudu on May 27, 2010, 01:02:44 PM
Ian, stop trolling the Wii. Pro, stop trolling everybody.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2010, 01:13:17 PM
Quote
Ian, stop trolling the Wii.
I thought I was crapping on Microsoft. Am I wrong in that there is a niche for motion controlled games that Nintendo is not taking advantage of? The demand for an FPS that uses motion control is there. We saw it when Conduit got hyped to ****. But the demand has not been met. The Wii doesn't have that FPS killer app. Like it or not when people think of the Wii and think of motion control they think of Wii Sports.
The Xbox 360 is crawling with FPS games. It's crawling with developers that have proven themselves to be talented at making FPS games. Here is a niche that Nintendo has missed the boat on. Here is Microsoft's chance to meet that niche and take motion control beyond stuff like Wii Sports... and their decision is to focus on casuals and families. Nintendo found success with the Wii by going after a market the other guys were not targetting. Now MS and Sony are introducing their own motion control but they're just focusing on the SAME GROUP that Nintendo is focusing on. It's the exact opposite of Nintendo's strategy with the Wii. They have the chance to do something else with the concept but instead they're just doing "me too" copycat stuff... for MORE money. Natal is going to be DOA.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on May 27, 2010, 01:34:45 PM
Honestly I don't think Natal will fill the motion FPS niche either because FPSes require buttons (guns have buttons, after all). I could see Sony's Move do that but not Natal. Maybe there'll be some gimmicky nonsense stuffed into existing FPSes but Natal requires such a specialized design since it's controller-less that I don't expect many games to take full advantage of it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: vudu on May 27, 2010, 01:49:42 PM
One of the big criticisms against motion control is that it is only used as a stupid gimmick for casual focused titles. It has yet to really been proven as something worthwhile for core games.
That seems to be aimed at Nintendo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on May 27, 2010, 01:55:54 PM
One of the big criticisms against motion control is that it is only used as a stupid gimmick for casual focused titles. It has yet to really been proven as something worthwhile for core games.
That seems to be aimed at Nintendo.
Considering both Sony with the Move and Microsoft with the NATAL have so far focused primarily on hyping their motion controllers in the context of casual games whenever they've been publicly presented, I don't think you can infer that as exclusively taking a shot at Nintendo. There's been very little public focus on motion controls in more core-centric titles so far, though we'll probably see that at E3.
As for Natal's rumored price point, I already wasn't going to buy the thing (considering Microsoft hasn't announced any big titles that will use it that interest me) and at 3/4 of the cost of the system itself there's not a chance in hell of me changing my mind. I'm already hesitant to purchase the system given its high failure rate, so I'm not going to splurge even more on Natal when it's that expensive and I'm already satisfied with the 360 controller as it is.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: vudu on May 27, 2010, 02:09:20 PM
Considering at this point the Wii is the only motion-controlled system available I think it's pretty safe to infer that as taking a shot at Nintendo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on May 27, 2010, 02:42:33 PM
Quote
Considering at this point the Wii is the only motion-controlled system available I think it's pretty safe to infer that as taking a shot at Nintendo.
When people think of motion control they think of titles like Wii Sports and Wii Fit. Games like Super Mario Galaxy may have motion control in it but it isn't the sort of game the immediately jumps to mind when you hear "motion control". I think it's more or less a fact that the Wii has a very casual-focused image. You can argue whether or not that's deserving but I think the image clearly exists. That's how most of the videogame industry sees it. Third parties are pretty damn obvious about it. And Sony and MS are continuing with that idea - they have emphasized casual gaming in regards to Move and Natal.
Motion control is associated with casual gaming. I think this is a fact. And I think Sony and MS are being complete idiots by maintaining that status quo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 28, 2010, 01:08:17 AM
Isn't the 360 arcade model actually cheaper than the Wii? Or at least the same price? Someone could just get that and then add Natal to it, I suppose.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on May 28, 2010, 01:26:11 AM
So, the Natal will be priced at $150, eh? Well if you ask me, the Natal is overpriced $149 too much. ;D
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 28, 2010, 10:02:47 AM
Isn't the 360 arcade model actually cheaper than the Wii? Or at least the same price? Someone could just get that and then add Natal to it, I suppose.
From the rumor:
Quote
Natal will launch in the US this October with a price tag of $149.
That’s according to a trusted source (http://www.edge-online.com/news/first-gears-of-war-3-gameplay-details), who told us that the motion sensing camera will also be bundled with the Xbox 360 Arcade console for $299.
So you'd be saving $50 by buying the bundle, but you'd still be paying $100 more than a Wii (which comes with 2 games....<1.5 games since some activities overlap>)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on May 28, 2010, 12:28:59 PM
Wow, I watched the Natal demos...yeah I know it is old...and I am shocked about how completely gimmicky the whole controller and product is. The Wii looked Gimmick, but you could see how it could be used to immediately make games better. I don't see this technology making games better but worse. It is innovative but not in the good way.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on May 28, 2010, 01:27:14 PM
Isn't the 360 arcade model actually cheaper than the Wii? Or at least the same price? Someone could just get that and then add Natal to it, I suppose.
In the US they are the same price: $199.99. I think it varies in other countries.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 29, 2010, 10:48:58 PM
Could MS & Sony have switched the names for their motion controllers around by accident?
Natal To Be Christened 'Wave' At E3? (http://xbox-360.nowgamer.com/news/3284/natal-to-be-christened-wave-at-e3) It sure sounds like it doesn't it...
Quote
At E3 next month Microsoft plans to unveil all the details on Project Natal - including its new name...
NowGamer has learnt from a source close to Microsoft that the official name for Project Natal will be revealed as 'Wave' at the event in Los Angeles next month. Other recent rumours have suggested prices and release dates for the camera-based motion control system.
'Wave' certainly seems to fit the peripheral's demographic - especially considering the 'Move' branding for PlayStation's motion control rival. What do you think; will we all be playing Xbox Wave games come Christmas? Let us know...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: sunan on June 01, 2010, 02:43:51 AM
Looking forward to the next round. :D
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 01, 2010, 04:52:39 AM
The history of video-gaming has shown time and time again that addon peripherals (Sega CD, 32X, N64 DD, etc.) VERY VERY seldom become successful. The PS3 Move and this NATAL thing are peripheral addons, so they will face the very same challenges other addons have faced in the past. It doesn't necessarily mean they will fail, but we shouldn't be surprised if they do fail because that's how those things tend to go.
But the one thing MS has that previous peripheral makers (like SEGA) didn't have is oodles and oodles of money. If NATAL fails then it won't be a life or death crisis for MS the way it almost was for SEGA. If that happens, MS will probably quietly sweep NATAL under the rug and immediately put out a Wiimote like option instead.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 01, 2010, 12:19:41 PM
Does no one else thing that if MS renames Natal to Wave, that Move and Wave have the wrong names and should be switched?
Disco Stick is more of a Wave(you wave a stick around) and Natal it more of a Move(you have to get up and actually move around).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 01, 2010, 01:38:48 PM
How about Fail and Flop?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2010, 01:59:56 PM
Quote
The history of video-gaming has shown time and time again that addon peripherals (Sega CD, 32X, N64 DD, etc.) VERY VERY seldom become successful. The PS3 Move and this NATAL thing are peripheral addons, so they will face the very same challenges other addons have faced in the past. It doesn't necessarily mean they will fail, but we shouldn't be surprised if they do fail because that's how those things tend to go.
One thing that is a big different is that for MS and Sony this could be effectively their next gen. Seriously are they going to up the specs again at this point? The PS3 just recently became affordable. I think the challenge is in convincing the customer that THIS is their next gen. Instead of selling a new console they're selling this add-on. One reason add-ons failed in the past was because we all knew next gen was coming. So I think the challenge is in making people believe that this is it and that it's going to last five years and no successor is on the doorstep.
I'm wondering if they should take a GBC approach to this. The GBC was really just a stop gap before the GBA. But the GBC sold very well. There was a lot of emphasis on backwards compatibility and how most GBC games would also work on the original Game Boy. It like there was a lot of care put towards pleasing people that already had regular Game Boys so they didn't have to feel like upgrading right away was mandatory.
Now I think MS has to make Move available sold seperately for the existing users. But I'm almost thinking they should market the Xbox 360/Wave bundle as if it's a whole new console. Give the bundle a unique name and logo. Redesign the case so that it looks different. I'm thinking maybe they should act like the Xbox Wave is a new console but they're so "generous" to their existing userbase that one can also buy a Wave "add-on" to "convert" their Xbox 360 into a Wave. However Xbox 360s are no longer manufactured and Xbox Waves are all you see in stores. All new games have the Xbox Wave logo on them with a little "compatible with the Xbox 360" indicator on them if applicable.
Imagine if a 32X/Genesis combo and a Saturn were the same thing and played the same games. Would the 32X have been such a bomb then?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 01, 2010, 03:24:09 PM
I don't think they will do that, Ian. The reason is because they didn't do that with the HD-DVD thing. If MS had actually built it into the 360 (or at least bundled it with new systems) then there would have been a far better chance HD-DVD could have won the format war awhile back, but MS didn't do that. Maybe its just because they were afraid the format would fail (which it did) and didn't want to be dragged down with it, which is possible, but I think it was more just an oversight. I don't think they really grasped the difficulty in selling the peripheral model and probably seriously thought they were doing things right. So that's what could happen here with NATAL as well. Hell, maybe MS is afraid to build it into their system because they fear it will fail? That might actually be something they're worried about, but if it isn't then the other reason they might leave it out is because they just don't know any better and think it will sell well as an extra peripheral.
If Sony/MS treat this as their "next gen" then it might work out, but odds are they'll just pull a Sega and then announce the Xbox 460 and PS4 before those addons have a time to really catch on, and then consumers would just save their money causing the addons to flop. What you're suggesting does make sense from a logical standpoint, but I just have my doubts that MS/Sony will do that. Sega didnt' follow that road, and there's no reason to believe the people running these companies are any smarter than Sega was back in the mid-90s. Remember how MS had to beat everyone else by launching the 360 a year ahead of the competition? Well, that strategy worked out well for them because they are leading the PS3 right now, so they will look at that strategy as a success and probably want to repeat it by getting the 460 out ASAP. Remember, their console has been out for about 5 years now, so for them they probably sense it is time. Not to mention the fact the 360 isn't quite powerful enough to handle NATAL fully.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 01, 2010, 03:43:25 PM
Microsoft isn't confident enough in Natal/Wave to do that. It's like calling the DS a third pillar. Nintendo didn't actually believe that; they just wanted to be able to abandon it if it didn't work out without tainting the brand. If Natal fails as an add-on, that's bad, but add-ons fail all the time. If Microsoft touts Natal as the next generation and the future of the Xbox brand and it still fails, that's much, much worse.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 01, 2010, 04:14:03 PM
I don't think they will do that, Ian. The reason is because they didn't do that with the HD-DVD thing.
MS had no financial investment in HDDVD so why would they redesign their system around it when the games couldn't me made to support it since the system had already been out for a year without it and the add-on was too expensive to expect everyone to buy one or to jack the price of the 360 back up when MS was eagerly trying to get it as low as possible as quickly as possible. That just wouldn't make sense and is the wrong comparison to make.
As far as rebranding the 360 with Natal/Wave as a new console launch, that is exactly what MS has been saying they were gonna do. There is even a new motherboard that is about 20% smaller than the last. About MS changing the entire look of the 360 for the Natal/Wave rebranding....
Microsoft isn't confident enough in Natal/Wave to do that. It's like calling the DS a third pillar. Nintendo didn't actually believe that; they just wanted to be able to abandon it if it didn't work out without tainting the brand. If Natal fails as an add-on, that's bad, but add-ons fail all the time. If Microsoft touts Natal as the next generation and the future of the Xbox brand and it still fails, that's much, much worse.
I agree.
Changing the branding to 360 Natal with a slightly shrunken 360 would be good, but cahnging the entire look of the box to match the Wave/Natal, rebranding it so you associate it with the Wave/Natal & only selling the rebranded bundled version then having the whole thing fail, would not be good for the brand at all.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 01, 2010, 04:31:20 PM
Chozo, I really don't think MS or Sony will do what I suggested. But they probably should. What I think will happen is that they'll just offer half-baked Wii Sports knock offs and no one will care. But it doesn't have to be that way.
I think any PS4 or Xbox 460 released in the next few years will bomb. They overextended themselves this gen and the market embraced the cheaper Gamecube 1.5. If no one bought a PS3 when it was $600 why would anyone buy a PS4 at that price? The whole problem for Sony and MS this gen was that their consoles were too expensive and were not offering a noticable enough leap for the average person. How do you possibly make something affordable that will have a significant enough step up from the current consoles to make people say "wow"?
I think for both of them this motion control stuff is IT. That's their only real chance to do something different that people will notice. If it bombs though I guess their best bet is to just ride the storm with what they got. They've got the third party support and remain relevent despite the Wii's dominance. Not sure what they can do when Nintendo introduces the Wii's successor though. Will they keep the third party support advantage if all three consoles are on even footing hardware-wise?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 01, 2010, 04:32:13 PM
Changing the branding to 360 Natal with a slightly shrunken 360 would be good, but cahnging the entire look of the box to match the Wave/Natal, rebranding it so you associate it with the Wave/Natal & only selling the rebranded bundled version then having the whole thing fail, would not be good for the brand at all.
Agreed, but by not supporting the addon full force MS increases the odds that it will fail. So they can keep their distance from it and half-ass it and that means it will be less disastrous when it fails; OR they can support it full-force and make it the new standard for their consoles and that way it becomes much less likely to fail... although if it DOES fail then its far more of a disaster.
So that's a tough call, but I think with MS's deep pockets and their non-reliance on the xbox division for their revenue it would probably be best if they supported wave full force. That way it would be a huge disaster if it fails, but it wouldn't cripple the company or anything like that the way it did to SEGA, and at the same time it would also be much less likely to flop with the full support behind it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 02, 2010, 04:51:58 PM
Here is a video to go with that pic http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2012011196_d8_project_natal_demo_-_no_new.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/technologybrierdudleysblog/2012011196_d8_project_natal_demo_-_no_new.html)
Natal pics up someone else walking on stage and it messed up the presentation for a second
and the second video as a bad case of jello legs on the avatar. But I'm sure these are issues that can ironed out as more time goes by.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 04, 2010, 05:12:38 PM
Looks like another rumored launch Natal game is being reworked to fit into he control scheme.
Joy Ride becomes Project Natal launch game (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=249663)
Quote
Microsoft's arcade racer Joy Ride has been reworked as a Natal launch title, CVG can reveal. According to a senior retail source, the title will be available on Natal from day one later this year - and will no longer be free-to-play. In development at first party studio BigPark, the avatar-based game was unveiled as a free-to-play Xbox Live Arcade title at last year's E3.
Having initially been due for release in late 2009, the game was reported to be missing in action earlier this week after its listing was wiped from Xbox.com. Microsoft responded to requests for comment by saying that it planned to "bring BigPark's vision to life in 2010", adding that it had "nothing further to announce at this time".
Our source told us the game had been "completely reworked" for Natal. "The hope for us is that it will be a boxed release - we're still in the dark on that one - but it's definitely for Natal and will definitely be here for launch," our source said.
"We've been told it will no longer be free to play, but that it's been completely reworked into a bigger, richer game than before. They're putting the final touches to it now. The biggest thing for us is that it just works with Natal's racing controls. We're reliably informed it's very intuitive."
It's due to be unveiled on Sunday, June 13 at E3 2010 - the date of Microsoft's special Natal-centric event.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: MaryJane on June 05, 2010, 08:06:34 AM
Quote
In a surprising expose on the seedy underbelly of pre-release gaming demos for the whole family, Parade Magazine's own A.J. Jacobs reports on a bit of fun gone awry. Mr. Jacobs details the horrific scene: "We next tried an obstacle course where you have to dart under trees and jump over logs. I was really working it, leaning my body and windmilling my arms. Unfortunately, Zane, 3, wandered a bit too close to me and, well, I inadvertently smacked him in the face. He started crying." Luckily, Zane bounced back quickly, and the Jacobs household (6-year-old Jasper was also in attendance) quickly determined that their best chances at beating the few Project Natal demos Microsoft was showing them might involve benching the old man.
So it's dangerous for little kids and too involved for more seasoned gamers... who are they expecting to play this? People too lazy to walk to the pizza store 5 blocks away and instead call for delivery?
Oh, and I know there have been Wii accidents but those involving bodily harm have been minimal, and I could totally see someone losing their balance and knocking over or running head first into a T.V with the Natal, or Move.
Edit: Link: http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/04/natal-river-rush-gameplay-glimpsed-first-wild-gesticulation-r/ The video doesn't show the accident, but it shows some gameplay and as the link says 'wild-gesticulation' this video makes Natal look very unappealing to me...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 05, 2010, 01:46:41 PM
Who doesn't think this looks like hours of fun? (http://i49.tinypic.com/11ljwhw.jpg)
& who doesn't have enough livingroom space to double as a 1 (or 2 if you park sideways) car garage? (http://i50.tinypic.com/6izgnt.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 05, 2010, 03:22:38 PM
So, will the next Halo game make use of this thing?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 05, 2010, 05:42:03 PM
I hope.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 08, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
Miyamoto: MS and Sony motion devices are “threatening” (http://www.vg247.com/2010/06/03/miyamoto-ms-and-sony-motion-devices-are-threatening/)
Quote
Nintendo’s Shigeru Miyamoto’s told Edge that Microsoft and Sony’s rush to motion with Natal and Move is “threatening” behaviour.
“Whenever something we have created and presented is followed by copies, we always feel it is threatening,” said the dev legend.
“More than that, we’re concerned that others are trying to do something similar for the sake of it. It’s not encouraging to Nintendo.”
The exec was answering a question on whether or not he saw parallels between the uptake of motion controllers and the “borrowing” of analog sticks in the PlayStation generation.
Both Natal and Move will release towards the end of this year, and both will feature heavily at E3 later this month.
Nintendo will show its latest hardware, 3DS, at the LA event.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 08, 2010, 12:08:28 PM
Nobody tries to do something similar for the sake of it. Innovation for the sake of innovation is common but copycat stuff exists to get in on the current big thing. Nintendo mentioned that they felt they were introducing a new standard. Well that means the rest of the industry is going to copy you. Do they expect all three consoles to have completely incompatible controller methods? Wait, scratch that, that seems like the sort of the thing Nintendo WOULD expect. ;)
It's good that Nintendo feels threatened. Competition drives companies to do better. I think with the Wii Nintendo has felt untouchable and their output has suffered. They need something to threaten them. Though I don't think either Sony or MS will be able to do that. I figure their stuff will be lame and Nintendo's motion control will remain the best by default.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 08, 2010, 12:19:36 PM
I think it sounds more like MS & Sony are only releasing this because Nintendo made it popular and not because they had any idea of what they wanted to do with it. Making the tech and then shoe-horning it in to their own games with out any vision or inspiration is damaging to the market and image that Nintendo has created for "motion" controls over the last 5 years.
I don't personally think Nintendo cares about MS or Sony copying the implementation cause that was expected. But when all they have to show is Slap Balls, Wii Sports clones and copy cat of other various games that just 2 years ago they were making fun of and calling stupid, then they aren't really doing anybody any favors.
Those same uninspired cash-grabs are gonna sour the new audience to "motion" controls and that is threatening to Nintendo's present and future business strategy.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 08, 2010, 12:47:53 PM
I'm beginning to see double. Is this Nintendo's new 3D at work?
(http://i49.tinypic.com/6dzhc6.jpg) There is nothing to see over here.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 08, 2010, 01:56:55 PM
Quote
Those same uninspired cash-grabs are gonna sour the new audience to "motion" controls and that is threatening to Nintendo's present and future business strategy.
I understand the concern. But I think the old Bible verse about removing the plank from one's own eye before focusing on the splinter in your brother's applies here. Motion controls are associated with casual shovelware because that's the way things are on the Wii. It isn't like Nintendo has this super high standard of motion control that is going to have its reputation sullied by Sony and MS copying it. Nintendo is the company that started this whole casual game stuff. They don't make the outright trash that third parties do but they set the template with Wii Sports. Good or bad, third parties followed their lead and that's why the Wii became the casual console. And Nintendo has released outright junk like Wii Music so they aren't completely innocent. They've also been responsible for waggle games. Hell they started that trend to by porting a Gamecube Zelda game to the Wii and replacing the controls with gesture based waggle.
Motion control already has a reputation for being a mainstream pandering gimmick associated with casual games. And right now Nintendo is the only company offering it. If anything is going to hurt Nintendo's success it should be their own uninspired mini-game comps or their last gen waggle ports. I think the Wii's horrible third party support is more likely to threaten their future business than Sony or MS "ruining" motion control. Motion control's image is already damaged by the Wii. Sony and MS are only going the casual route with their products because that's what Nintendo has done.
Nintendo are the pioneers of motion control. It will go in the direction that they lead it in. It's their responsibility to take it to the next level. Sony, MS and the entire videogame industry pigeonholes motion control as a casual thing because they are merely copying Nintendo and Nintendo has not made it anything more than that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 08, 2010, 02:16:56 PM
I see it as Nintendo introduced motion control in steps.
The first games were waggle to ease the new gamers in, but there are also more complex games that use Motion correctly like SMG2 & WSR. There is something for everyone, and the early/easy games were made to make gaming not seem so complex.
MS has oversimplified which is actually gonna over complicate things while Sony has made Wiimote++ and applied complex/advanced motion controls to their games without any sort of built in learning curve. Sony just kinda drops their consumers in the deep and and says "swim".
I think the difference here is that Nintendo realized that you have crawl before you can walk and you have to walk before you can run. The Wiimote was crawling, M+ was walking and now Move is running. But is the Sony audience ready to run?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on June 08, 2010, 02:21:46 PM
"Motion control's image is already damaged by the Wii. Sony and MS are only going the casual route with their products because that's what Nintendo has done."
This don't make no sense at all. You've said that motion controls are great in MG2 and MP3, it's clear they work great for WSR, and now we're back to
motion controls=CASUALIZATION | | \/ MS and Sony are copying something with a ruined reputation to ride off Nintendo's success at DGF, which has also forced third parties to want to DGF | | \/ MS and Sony will only create games with motion controls in order to also DGF | | \/ facepalm
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 08, 2010, 02:38:07 PM
I see it as Nintendo introduced motion control in steps.
The first games were waggle to ease the new gamers in, but there are also more complex games that use Motion correctly like SMG2. There is something for everyone, and the early/easy games were made to make gaming not seem so complex.
MS has oversimplified which is actually gonna over complicate things while Sony has made Wiimote++ and applied complex/advanced motion controls to their games without any sort of built in learning curve. Sony just kinda drops their consumers in the deep and and says "swim".
I think the difference here is that Nintendo realized that you have crawl before you can walk and you have to walk before you can run. The Wiimote was crawling, M+ was walking and now Move is running. But is the Sony audience ready to run?
Sony has been on the record as to wanting to steal the Wii audience away from Nintendo. Remember, along the lines of "we're targeting Wii gamers who are looking for something more." They aren't trying to find a whole new untapped group of potential gamers like Nintendo did, so they don't have to start off small.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 08, 2010, 03:06:02 PM
Nintendo's new audience won't be buying a PS3 because they want more. They are more than likely content with the item they already bought. If they upgrade, it likely won't be until the Wii2 when there is another HYPE Buzz Xmas MUST HAVE Rush going on again. Another "Tickle Me Elmo' type craze.
Now if they are trying to convert jaded Wii Core gamers that are looking for more out of motion controls and hardcore gaming, then that strategy might work, but wouldn't most of them already have a PS3 or Xbox360?
Everyone else doesn't care about graphics and aren't that into gaming where they will own multiple machines. These are the people that are happy with WiiSports/Resort, WiiFit/Plus, WiiPlay and various other simple games that are for the most part, pick up and play. These are the people that even if they bought a PS3, they would hook it up to their HDTV with composite cables and then talk about how they don't see the big deal about Bluray or PS3 graphics. They don't know the difference and don't really care. They aren't upgrading till upgrading is the NEXT BIG THING.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 08, 2010, 03:06:11 PM
I wonder what sort of injuries and lawsuits Natal will create. You thought the red ring of death was bad? Just wait until people start dying for real.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 08, 2010, 03:55:39 PM
Nintendo's new audience won't be buying a PS3 because they want more. They are more than likely content with the item they already bought. If they upgrade, it likely won't be until the Wii2 when there is another HYPE Buzz Xmas MUST HAVE Rush going on again. Another "Tickle Me Elmo' type craze.
Now if they are trying to convert jaded Wii Core gamers that are looking for more out of motion controls and hardcore gaming, then that strategy might work, but wouldn't most of them already have a PS3 or Xbox360?
Everyone else doesn't care about graphics and aren't that into gaming where they will own multiple machines. These are the people that are happy with WiiSports/Resort, WiiFit/Plus, WiiPlay and various other simple games that are for the most part, pick up and play. These are the people that even if they bought a PS3, they would hook it up to their HDTV with composite cables and then talk about how they don't see the big deal about Bluray or PS3 graphics. They don't know the difference and don't really care. They aren't upgrading till upgrading is the NEXT BIG THING.
I didn't say Sony's plan would work... Just mentioning how the supposed complexity of their controller ties into their self-described focus.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 08, 2010, 04:49:18 PM
Quote
This don't make no sense at all. You've said that motion controls are great in MG2 and MP3, it's clear they work great for WSR, and now we're back to
motion controls=CASUALIZATION
Three games doesn't change the perception. The perception is there or third parties wouldn't almost exclusively dump casual focused garbage on the Wii and Sony and MS wouldn't be all casual focused with their motion control. Like it or not the videogame industry associates motion control with casual gaming.
Regarding jaded Wii owners I agree with BlackNMild2k1 that they probably already bought a PS3 or X360. Hell that was like the way you did things if you wanted more. Hell, I figure that jaded Wii owners are the last people to want anything to do with Move or Natal. If you have a problem with the Wii odds are motion control is a big part of that. I personally like how PS3 games use normal responsive controls and that I don't have to fight with waggle the whole time. So for me to buy Move, well ****, Sony has to REALLY impress me.
And as for the existing Wii casual userbase, I don't think they'll buy these. I wonder if they'll even buy a Wii 2. The Wii was the "it" item a few years back and created a frenzy. Can Nintendo recreate that again? I think we still have to see if these people want to regularly buy videogames or if the Wii was just a one-off purchase. In my day-to-day life the Wii is no longer the hot topic. I know a fair chunk of people that bought a Wii for Wii Sports, bought Wii Play and Wii Fit and maybe a Rock Band or Guitar Hero game and that's it - they haven't used it in over a year. They're not talking about NSMB Wii or Super Mario Galaxy 2. We are. They're not.
A big part of the Wii's sudden success was that "OMG YOU SWING YOUR ARM AND THE DUDE ON SCREEN SWINGS THE RACKET" reaction. Wii Sports was a monumental game. How will Move or Natal or even the Wii 2 create that kind of a reaction? We don't know what the Wii 2 will be so maybe Nintendo will come up with something. But I don't think ANYONE is going to see Natal and get blown away but what looks like the same thing but without a controller.
I think the only strategy that could work, and Sony has sort of hinted at it, is to find a good use for it in hardcore games which is something Nintendo hasn't really done. While Nintendo is showing off Wii Party, you show off Halo with good responsive motion controls and Nintendo looks like a joke in comparison.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Luigi Dude on June 08, 2010, 05:15:11 PM
I think the only strategy that could work, and Sony has sort of hinted at it, is to find a good use for it in hardcore games which is something Nintendo hasn't really done. While Nintendo is showing off Wii Party, you show off Halo with good responsive motion controls and Nintendo looks like a joke in comparison.
If Microsoft or Sony were going to do this, they should have done it back in 2008 when Nintendo embarrassed themselves with their Wii Music performance. That's not going to work at this years E3 though since Nintendo will be showing off Zelda Wii with Motion+.
We all know the power of Zelda, and the fact that this Zelda is going to require Motion+ shows that Nintendo has something big in mind. When you have one of Nintendo's top teams who've been working with Motion controls for over 4 years now working on the upcoming Zelda, nothing Microsoft and Sony do is going to come close to what Zelda will show.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 08, 2010, 05:15:43 PM
I think the only strategy that could work, and Sony has sort of hinted at it, is to find a good use for it in hardcore games which is something Nintendo hasn't really done. While Nintendo is showing off Wii Party, you show off Halo with good responsive motion controls and Nintendo looks like a joke in comparison.
Until Zelda Wii, right Ian?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on June 08, 2010, 05:20:18 PM
Wrong. A 4th motion control game isn't going to change perceptions that motion controls=CASUALIZATION.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 08, 2010, 05:24:28 PM
Three games? 4th game? What-on-earth games are people talking about? Sounds like complete make-believe.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on June 08, 2010, 05:36:33 PM
Read up a little higher. Apparently, even after some great motion-controlled games like TP, MP3, WSR, or MG2, there exists a perception due entirely to Wii Sports' success and Wii Music's existence that motion controls mean an automatic casualization and destruction of gaming, which MS and Sony hope to imitate.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 08, 2010, 05:53:02 PM
The thread is also forgetting Mario Kart Wii (most successful racing game of all time; login to WFC and checkout how the player lists are dominated by Golden Wheel users) and Wii Fit Plus (foot board gaming is still motion gaming, to further add to Ian's displeasure).
Really, thanks to the implementation of steering wheeling and Fat Feet gaming in addition to traditional Waggle Gaming, Nintendo is still way ahead of the curve. Sony will have to release their "Stay" board in addition to "Move" while MS has to release an aerobic step for its "Watal" device just to catch up to Nintendo's innovations.
If Sony and MS hope to imitate any form of Nintendo's success, they must avoid relying on the non-casuals and think very hard about kiddie non-games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 08, 2010, 06:38:06 PM
Really, thanks to the implementation of steering wheeling and Fat Feet gaming in addition to traditional Waggle Gaming, Nintendo is still way ahead of the curve. Sony will have to release their "Stay" board in addition to "Move" while MS has to release an aerobic step for its "Watal" device just to catch up to Nintendo's innovations.
Uh, the 360's had steering wheel peripherals for years for real racing games, not broken crap like Mario Kart Wii. And arcades had them for longer than that. For that matter, arcades (and consoles as well, right?) previously had "Fat Feet" gaming for years in Dance Dance Revolution.
And everyone's had the equivalent of Wii Fit in their homes for probably their entire lifetimes: they're called "bathroom scales".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 08, 2010, 06:48:36 PM
Mario Kart Wii may be a little boring, it is not even close to being "broken".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 08, 2010, 06:53:30 PM
Mario Kart Wii may be a little boring, it is not even close to being "broken".
When you can run a near-perfect race and get bombarded by a combination of a blue shell; several red shells; and the lightning bolt right at the finish line so every other racer on the course finishes before you, the game is broken.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 08, 2010, 06:58:00 PM
Mario Kart Wii may be a little boring, it is not even close to being "broken".
When you can run a near-perfect race and get bombarded by a combination of a blue shell; several red shells; and the lightning bolt right at the finish line so every other racer on the course finishes before you, the game is broken.
No, it means it's not the racing game for you. I prefer the craziness and 'screw your competitor' attitude over 'who can run the cleanest race' type of racing game. It's not broken.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 08, 2010, 07:00:34 PM
brood, then every Mario Kart game and every kart racer in general is broken. If you do run a perfect or near perfect race, then you will win, at least in the thousands of Mario Kart races i've done. Whenever I lost it was because I did something to screw up. The only thing ever broken in the series was in Mario Kart DS (I am talking about snaking, which ruined online play for the game).
Geez, this is like the people who bitch about items in the Smash Bros. games. It's not more "real" with items turned off. If you don't want to play with items, then go play another game because Smash Bros. without items is like playing Madden and saying that passing plays are not allowed.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 08, 2010, 07:43:36 PM
brood, then every Mario Kart game and every kart racer in general is broken. If you do run a perfect or near perfect race, then you will win, at least in the thousands of Mario Kart races i've done. Whenever I lost it was because I did something to screw up. The only thing ever broken in the series was in Mario Kart DS (I am talking about snaking, which ruined online play for the game).
Geez, this is like the people who bitch about items in the Smash Bros. games. It's not more "real" with items turned off. If you don't want to play with items, then go play another game because Smash Bros. without items is like playing Madden and saying that passing plays are not allowed.
No, Mario Kart has been broken ever since the Blue Shell was rendered unblockable and sporting an AoE effect in Doubledash, and the AI has been rendered more of a cheating jerk with each installment.
I have no qualms with Smash Bros.' use of items because most of them can either be blocked or dodged, and everyone has a chance at the uber weapons when they appear on-screen. In Mario Kart, it's all decided by chance with the most devasting items only going to those who don't have a prayer at actually winning the race. Plus, the AI will actually attack each other in Smash Bros. rather than stocking up on items and ganging up exclusively on you.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 08, 2010, 07:52:24 PM
I still say that has more to do with you. A good player will still be able to win.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 08, 2010, 08:00:59 PM
If one still complains about the AI opponents in Mario Kart Wii (like, they should be blamed for your loss), one's driving must still be poor. The competition found online is European Extreme in comparison to the offline AI, and they provide greater opportunities for skill development.
Millions of Soccer Moms sporting Golden Wheels can't lie.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 09, 2010, 03:27:09 AM
I think we still have to see if these people want to regularly buy videogames or if the Wii was just a one-off purchase. In my day-to-day life the Wii is no longer the hot topic. I know a fair chunk of people that bought a Wii for Wii Sports, bought Wii Play and Wii Fit and maybe a Rock Band or Guitar Hero game and that's it - they haven't used it in over a year. They're not talking about NSMB Wii or Super Mario Galaxy 2. We are. They're not.
This anecdotal evidence sounds very similar to the ps2 so I don't get whats changed. I know of people who bought the ps2 and picked up Madden, Guitar Hero and maybe one more game. This is what happens when you have the number one console and have millions more sold than the competition.
As always you have people who aren't fans using everything they can as a negative but its not. The "perception" is a bunch of people talking on internet forums about how the Wii essentially isn't geeky enough for them because it has games for girls and adults.
I have absolutely no faith in Natal. We have seen real demonstations and nothing fantastic. E3 isn't some big reveal, if they had some amazing I ea we'd probably would have seen it already.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
Investors say: Microsoft should stick to Windows (http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_24/b4182036703891.htm) Apparently Natal will flop and Investors want to minimize expected losses
Quote
On June 15, at a video game convention in Los Angeles, Microsoft (MSFT) will unveil a little box of outsize importance. Code-named Project Natal, the device will be an add-on to Microsoft's aging Xbox 360 game console, which has shipped 40 million units in five years. Xbox sales have been slowing since Sony (SNE) cut the price of the PlayStation 3 console last summer, but Microsoft hopes Natal will revive the Xbox—because it lets users play games without a controller. Just drive your pretend car or swing your virtual baseball bat and Natal, which sits in front of the TV and has built-in sensors, picks up the motion. Following the event in L.A., Microsoft is launching an ad blitz leading up to a consumer release in October.
Microsoft needs Natal—or whatever it's called by the time it goes on sale—to be a hit. The technology is inarguably cool, and is a rare bright spot in Microsoft's decade-old—and thus far mostly dissappointing—push to move beyond PCs and into game consoles, music players, and smartphones. Operating income at its Entertainment & Devices unit, which is responsible for those products, is expected to come in at $773 million for the year that ends June 30, according to UBS Securities (UBS). That's a 10 percent operating margin, compared with 72 percent for Windows, its most profitable business. While the Xbox is a strong No. 2 in the video game market (after the Nintendo Wii)*, the entertainment division has lost $8.6 billion on sales of $49 billion since 1999, estimates Katherine Egbert of Jeffries & Co. An initiative to build Internet-based TV systems has yet to take off, and its iPod-like Zune music players have bombed. While Apple (AAPL) just sold its two millionth iPad, Microsoft recently scrapped a tablet code-named Courier. In smartphones, Microsoft's share in the first quarter was 6.8 percent, down from 10.2 percent the year before.
The Natal device, which is expected to retail for about $100, won't sell in volumes high enough to matter much financially for the world's largest software company. But since it works with the current Xbox 360 console, it could reinvigorate sales of that device. That means Microsoft could put off having to field a new console, which would lose hundreds of millions of dollars for a few years; profits come from higher-margin sales of games it creates such as the Halo franchise, as well as its cut on Xbox titles made by other companies. Natal could also fuel greater interest in Microsoft's most impressive consumer play, the Xbox Live online service. More than 23 million gamers use it to play each other over the Net, as well as to download movies and music.
If Natal takes off, Microsoft might be able to extend its reach into other platforms. It could be built into PC monitors and big-screen TVs, allowing consumers to control those devices by speech or motion, moving family photos the way Tom Cruise moved pictures and videos around in Minority Report. Forrester Research (FORR) analyst Sarah Rotman Epps envisions families synching their Natal-based Xbox console with Windows-based tablets such as the new model just announced by ASUSTeK, so each family member could easily download movies or books. "That would make Microsoft relevant for the next decade," she says.
Even as the company hypes Natal and its new mobile software, Windows Phone7, investors don't expect smash hits; in fact, they'd settle for small losses on these and other gadgets. "It's hard to make the case this has been a good use of shareholder capital," says Todd S. Lowenstein, who runs HighMark Capital's value fund. "I don't fault them for trying this stuff, but investors are getting impatient." Other investors suggest that, like IBM (IBM) a decade ago, Microsoft should refocus its efforts on its massively profitable PC and corporate software businesses. Its cash from operations last quarter alone was $7.4billion, a company record. Yet its shares are down about 50percent since Steve Ballmer took over as CEO on Jan.13, 2000. "The stock would go up if Microsoft exited its consumer businesses," says Bill Whyman of ISI Group.
Whyman knows Microsoft won't give up on entertainment. The company has long poured money into maturing markets from word processing to Web browsers, beating market pioneers by underpricing them into submission. "Ballmer's answer is always, 'We'll keep coming,' " says Whyman. "That's not a very comforting answer."
*LOL, strong 2nd place!!? more like distant second and almost in 3rd. PS3 is stepping on 360's heel every step of the way. Wii is jogging backwards just to see what the hell they are doing back there.
I'm not seeing a whole lot of confidence in Natal coming from this investor aimed article. I wonder if E3 will change their minds (even though they seem more focused on profits now than marketshare later)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 10, 2010, 11:33:10 AM
Yeah, the XBOX thing is just a huge money pit for them that hasn't made any profit in all that time. They should never have gotten into the console business in the first place. Maybe NATAL will deal them a blow that will FORCE them to drop the Xbox and go back to making buggy Windows OSes as they are known for.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 10, 2010, 12:42:10 PM
This brings up an interesting point. Despite Xbox being clearly a strong brand name in the console industry, when does MS pull out? At some point it has to make money. The idea was to lose money in the shortterm to gain a market foothold for the longterm. Well they got the market foothold they wanted but it still has to make money or the plan has failed. How long do they continue with it and at what point does it make sense to cut their losses?
This would make for a very interesting situation in the console wars where a console maker with a strong marketshare and relevent console just bailed. We know MS hasn't made a dime but I'll bet the average Xbox user would be shocked to find out that their favourite console, which seemed to be doing fine, has been discontinued.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 10, 2010, 02:00:39 PM
I don't think having 3 console makers in the market place is natural, or something that is really even desirable. Competition is a good thing, and we don't want to have just one console maker, but you can get that with 2 players. So having 3 or more is not needed, and it creates some problems with splitting the market up and so on. So it would probably be a good thing for the industry if one of the companies dropped out. That isn't going to happen with Nintendo, because they are always making profit and that's the only thing they do so they would have to go out of business entirely before they would drop out. So that leaves either Sony or MS. In the long run I predict one of them is going to realize its a waste of money and go back to their original core businesses instead.
If NATAL ends up being a flop the one who drops out will probably be MS. They've made mistakes before of entering into markets where they thought they would make tons of money but ended up failing. Another example that comes to mind is WebTV which they bought from Phillips back in the 90s. They thought it was going to be the next big thing, so they bought it and it ended up going nowhere. NATAL is probably going to end up like that too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Arbok on June 10, 2010, 03:15:45 PM
Despite Xbox being clearly a strong brand name in the console industry, when does MS pull out? At some point it has to make money. The idea was to lose money in the shortterm to gain a market foothold for the longterm. Well they got the market foothold they wanted but it still has to make money or the plan has failed.
The original plan was actually two generations of loses, followed by profit in the third. So the console after the 360 is meant to strike gold.
Problem is that plan was constructed in a very different atmosphere, with Sega out and Playstation 2 breaking records... not to mention a better economy. The market has proved far less brand loyal to consoles than originally thought, since Nintendo went from third to first in the span of a generation while Sony did the inverse.
Suddenly that slow burning market foothold idea doesn't seem so good, as the market has proved more volatile than anyone could have guessed when Sony was on top. Success one generation does not promise it the next, so all this money thrown into the Xbox brand is likely making investors less than thrilled as this revelation has become all but clear.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 10, 2010, 03:39:03 PM
I think the point of the article was not that xbox can't make money, but that many investors feel the capital invested into the xbox division could have brought much bigger returns by now if it had been invested in other sectors. Microsoft as a company wants to take over the living room, but the investor wants to see maximum return on his investment.
Oh, and I think I posted this a while before, but my prediction is someone gets fired over Natal. Someone near the top.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 10, 2010, 04:13:47 PM
Yeah, the XBOX thing is just a huge money pit for them that hasn't made any profit in all that time. They should never have gotten into the console business in the first place. Maybe NATAL will deal them a blow that will FORCE them to drop the Xbox and go back to making buggy Windows OSes as they are known for.
The Xbox division has actually been profitable for them for about 3 or 4 years now. The whole reason they even got into video games was to stop Sony from taking over the living room.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 10, 2010, 04:22:47 PM
Oh, and I think I posted this a while before, but my prediction is someone gets fired over Natal. Someone near the top.
J Allard, the man in charge of the Xbox division of Microsoft, was recently fired, so this may have already happened. Though, in my opinion, that was an incredibly stupid move by Microsoft. Allard was the smartest person in that company. If anything, he should have been promoted; I've said for a while they should be grooming him to take over as CEO once they realize Steve Ballmer is an idiot.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2010, 04:52:18 PM
Yeah, the XBOX thing is just a huge money pit for them that hasn't made any profit in all that time. They should never have gotten into the console business in the first place. Maybe NATAL will deal them a blow that will FORCE them to drop the Xbox and go back to making buggy Windows OSes as they are known for.
The Xbox division has actually been profitable for them for about 3 or 4 years now. The whole reason they even got into video games was to stop Sony from taking over the living room.
If you factor in the $1.2-$1.5Billion MS set aside for the 360 Warranty before the division split and shuffle, they will be turning their first profitable year this year FY2010.
Sorry I couldn't find the more recent quarterly reports, but that one is still recent enough.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2010, 05:03:51 PM
Sony's PlayStation Move and Xbox 360's Project Natal motion control solutions have been garnering a lot of the spotlight from core gamers and the press, but a new study reflects currently low purchase intent for the new devices.
Research firm OTX's U.S. tracking study GamePlan Insights polled a group of 2,000 gamers between May 23 and June 5, 2010, and found that 8 percent of the Xbox 360 market intends to buy Natal, and 6 percent of the PlayStation 3 market intends to purchase Move.
Of the people that are already planning on buying Natal and Move, 25 percent plan to preorder the controllers.
The low purchase intent figures reflect the current lack of information about compatible games for the devices. Microsoft and Sony are expected to reveal more motion-compatible games at next week's E3 event in L.A., where the controllers will be a central attraction, after which purchase intent may rise.
The GamePlan Insights study also said that 15 percent of the Xbox 360 market is aware of Natal, while the same percentage of the PS3 market is aware of the Move.
The study showed that Natal intenders have an average age of 25, versus 28 for the Move. Also, 30 percent of Move intenders are female, compared to 20 percent for Natal.
Natal intenders are also closely aligned with core Xbox 360 game tastes, with four out of five saying they like play shooter games a lot.
"While we are still months away from launch, the current data suggests that Natal gamers are definitely Xbox 360 purists, while Move gamers have a stronger interest in other platforms," OTX said.
Move intenders' tastes are more varied across genres like action, role-playing and shooters, which rank closely together as the top three preferred genres, OTX said.
The study revealed the top five games that Natal and Move intenders are currently interested in, exhibiting the gaming tastes of these early adopters:
Titles with strongest overlap among Natal intenders:
1. Gears of War 3 – X360 (47%) 2. Fable III – X360 (42%) 3. Call of Duty: Black Ops – X360 (38%) 4. Halo: Reach – X360 (34%) 5. Dead Space 2 – X360 (26%)
Titles with strongest overlap among Move Intenders:
1. LittleBigPlanet 2 – PS3 (42%) 2. Gran Turismo 5 – PS3 (32%) 3. SOCOM 4: U.S. Navy SEALs – PS3 (30%) 4. The Legend of Zelda 2 – Wii (26%) 5. Super Mario Galaxy 2 – Wii (21%)
^Atleast the 360 audience is loyal.... for shame PS3 owners.... for shame.
I wonder how much E3 will influence those numbers.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 10, 2010, 05:11:31 PM
Quote
I don't think having 3 console makers in the market place is natural, or something that is really even desirable. Competition is a good thing, and we don't want to have just one console maker, but you can get that with 2 players. So having 3 or more is not needed, and it creates some problems with splitting the market up and so on.
I agree that two is more ideal. Though the funny thing is there has pretty much always been at least three different console makers competing. Atari was competing with Mattel and Coleco. We talk about the 16-bit era being all Genesis vs. Super Nintendo but the TurboGrafx-16 was there the whole time along with all sorts of obscure stuff like the 3D0 and Jaguar. Even during the NES "monopoly" the Sega Master System and Atari 7800 were there in competition.
Since Atari got serious competition it pretty much went: Atari-Mattel-Coleco Atari-Nintendo-Sega NEC-Nintendo-Sega Sony-Nintendo-Sega Sony-Nintendo-Microsoft
There is always some third place chump trying to hang on with a console that seems irrelevent but has too many notable exclusives for hardcore gamers to completely ignore. MS just took Sega's old spot.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 10, 2010, 05:12:44 PM
I'm surprised that possible Move functionality for Resident Evil 5 and Dead Space isn't in the Top 5, considering how well it worked in RE4.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 10, 2010, 11:38:55 PM
MS: Natal is the Future and the Future is Now.... No Seriously. It's Gonna Change your Life! (http://www.videogamer.com/news/ms_on_natal_the_future_of_entertainment_is_here.html)
Quote
The future of home entertainment - like that seen in sci-fi movies - will be in stores this Christmas. That future is Project Natal, says Chris Lewis, VP, Interactive Entertainment Business, EMEA, Microsoft.
"Ten years ago we launched the original Xbox, and ten years on we are launching Project Natal, which will free people from the controller for gaming and entertainment," Lewis told MCV. "It will work with every Xbox 360 and when you get to use it across different games and entertainment experiences it really is revolutionary."
Lewis concluded: "We've all seen similar things in films set in the future, but that future is here and will be on the shelves for Christmas."
Microsoft is lifting the lid on Natal during a special showcase event on Sunday evening. Look out for coverage shortly after.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 11, 2010, 12:13:14 AM
Yeah, the XBOX thing is just a huge money pit for them that hasn't made any profit in all that time. They should never have gotten into the console business in the first place. Maybe NATAL will deal them a blow that will FORCE them to drop the Xbox and go back to making buggy Windows OSes as they are known for.
The Xbox division has actually been profitable for them for about 3 or 4 years now. The whole reason they even got into video games was to stop Sony from taking over the living room.
If you factor in the $1.2-$1.5Billion MS set aside for the 360 Warranty before the division split and shuffle, they will be turning their first profitable year this year FY2010.
Sorry I couldn't find the more recent quarterly reports, but that one is still recent enough.
You just proved me right, the Xbox division has been profitable for about 2 years now. Setting aside the money for the warranties has nothing to do with that, the actual products have been making them money for awhile wow.
Also, J. Allard wasn't fired. He quit his position as senior vice president (but is staying with Microsoft as an adviser to CEO Steve Ballmer).
Ian, are those rankings just your personal opinion? Atari systems were basically dead by the time NES launched. Atari did try to re-launch the 7800 after the NES came out, but it sold like cat turds because it's graphics were ugly and it got almost no games, the NES had like a 90% markershare. NEC was never ahead of Nintendo (the only region that TurboGrafx-16 even slightly did well in was Japan, where it actually outsold Genesis). Also, it was 3DO (the letter "O", not the number "0").
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2010, 12:37:40 AM
How does showing that they haven't been profitable for the last 3 to 4 years prove your point that they've been profitable for the last 3 to 4 years now?
And setting aside that money put it as a loss in another department when they made that shuffle so that it appears that they are making profits when not factoring that pre-dept.
add up the profits that they show and subtract the debt they set aside, and you have no actual profit until the final quarter of their FY2010. That's pretty much 10 years with no profits and explains the investors concerns with being in the console business.
Add in all the losses from the original Xbox and things look even worse as they still have $7+Billion in losses to make up before Xbox as a brand is profitable at all.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2010, 12:58:20 AM
The investors don't care about the lifetime profitability of the brand. They care about yearly profits. Microsoft knew they were going to be billions in the hole from the launch of the brand, and they never expected to make that back any time soon.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2010, 01:11:57 AM
I agree, but the profits are slow to come and are just now trickling in with yet another hardware launch on the horizon. I understand their skepticism towards digging a deeper hole for a whole that is already way too deep.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 11, 2010, 02:34:01 AM
But Microsoft is making progress. They're going to be profitable, and they would have been profitable for a while now if not for the whole RROD thing. They'd be crazy to pull the plug now, when things are finally starting to come around.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 11, 2010, 02:36:42 AM
I don't think having 3 console makers in the market place is natural, or something that is really even desirable. Competition is a good thing, and we don't want to have just one console maker, but you can get that with 2 players. So having 3 or more is not needed, and it creates some problems with splitting the market up and so on.
I agree that two is more ideal. Though the funny thing is there has pretty much always been at least three different console makers competing. Atari was competing with Mattel and Coleco. We talk about the 16-bit era being all Genesis vs. Super Nintendo but the TurboGrafx-16 was there the whole time along with all sorts of obscure stuff like the 3D0 and Jaguar. Even during the NES "monopoly" the Sega Master System and Atari 7800 were there in competition.
Since Atari got serious competition it pretty much went: Atari-Mattel-Coleco Atari-Nintendo-Sega NEC-Nintendo-Sega Sony-Nintendo-Sega Sony-Nintendo-Microsoft
There is always some third place chump trying to hang on with a console that seems irrelevent but has too many notable exclusives for hardcore gamers to completely ignore. MS just took Sega's old spot.
Yeah, but my point is even though we have three console makers (4 if you count the PC, which some may) the fact is pretty much that you only need a Wii and one other one to cover your entire gaming needs. The PS3 and 360 (and arguably the PC as well) all cover the same ground and they share the same multiplatform titles, so you have some 1st party exclusives and maybe a small handful of 3rd party exclusives going to either system, but for the most part you won't miss out on much if you only own one of those consoles. So there's no need to own more than one.
But the question is do you go with a PS3 or a 360? You can buy both if you want, and I'm sure there are some who do, but there isn't much of a need to. So that's what I mean by one of the players being irrelevant and redundant. They hold a significant chunk of market share, which was something NEC and the Master System and so on never really did, but they aren't really offering much that makes them stand apart and justify their existence. So one of them needs to go, imho.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 11, 2010, 12:11:37 PM
But the question is do you go with a PS3 or a 360? You can buy both if you want, and I'm sure there are some who do, but there isn't much of a need to. So that's what I mean by one of the players being irrelevant and redundant. They hold a significant chunk of market share, which was something NEC and the Master System and so on never really did, but they aren't really offering much that makes them stand apart and justify their existence. So one of them needs to go, imho.
I have to disagree with you there. Sure, if one company had to drop out I'd prefer Microsoft simply because I don't tend to care about online gaming, but I like having 3 strong companies controlling this market. Each brings something different to the table that enriches gaming and encourages innovation in the other two: Microsoft emphasizes strong multiplayer gaming and online support; Sony emphasizes strong single-player gaming, high production values, and new IPs; and Nintendo emphasizes strong expanded audience support and new interfaces. As a result, we've had a pretty incredible era for games right now, with a pretty good library available no matter which console you choose.
Besides, if Microsoft drops out, they'll just get replaced by Apple. I'll stick with Microsoft, thanks.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 11, 2010, 12:18:42 PM
Quote
which will free people from the controller
It so damn irritating for them to emphasize this. NO ONE CARES! No one asked to be freed from the controller. Natal solves a "problem" that Microsoft made up.
Quote
Ian, are those rankings just your personal opinion?
Those aren't supposed to be rankings. Obviously Nintendo was the clear leader in the NES days. I just kept the console makers in the same slot to demonstrate how one is replaced by someone else.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 11, 2010, 12:43:08 PM
It so damn irritating for them to emphasize this. NO ONE CARES! No one asked to be freed from the controller. Natal solves a "problem" that Microsoft made up.
Really though. What happens when a Natal game still requires the controller? what about all the rest of the 360 games that still use a controller like normal?
What happens when everyone realizes that they don't mind moving around a little bit sometimes, but also realize that having no controller at all is becoming more and more problematic? When everyone realizes that jumping around like a monkey is mandatory, sitting on the couch with a controller seems pretty good, not that it was ever a problem in the first place.
(http://i49.tinypic.com/6dzhc6.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: MaryJane on June 12, 2010, 09:59:21 AM
Really though. What happens when a Natal game still requires the controller? what about all the rest of the 360 games that still use a controller like normal?
What happens when everyone realizes that they don't mind moving around a little bit sometimes, but also realize that having no controller at all is becoming more and more problematic? When everyone realizes that jumping around like a monkey is mandatory, sitting on the couch with a controller seems pretty good, not that it was ever a problem in the first place.
We already know that Lionhead intends to add Project Natal features to Fable III. With the big hype around the launch of Natal this fall, it seems likely that other "core" games will follow suit. With just a little extra work to add some Natal mini-games, high profile traditional games will be able to cash in on the hoopla
The article is a pretty good read overall, but of course they take a bunch of pot shots at the Wii, and on the second page he mispeaks about VR headtracking saying it's possible with the Natal and it can make bullets "pop out at you" as if it's a true 3D effect and not just depth and angles. Despite all of that he makes some pretty good points about the Natal and its future, pointing out that developers are likely going to take the same approach they did with Natal as they did with the Wii: carnival games, and added features--I think however, that with the Wii's saturation so high, Natal is going to need it's installed "hardcore" base to buy the add-on, not people who have already grown tired of party games on Wii and are starting to migrate to NSMB and Mario Kart. There is one cool thing the author mentions could be done with it on the second page:
Quote
With Xbox 360, you can watch TV shows or movies in a party with your friends. It's rather pointless. But it could be more fun with Project Natal. Imagine watching a show or sporting event with a group of friends and having some live interaction. Microsoft could set up events where thousands of people watch the same thing and then a game director of sorts adds little mini-games to the mix to keep things interesting.
Maybe a little cartoon mascot could come out during a timeout of a sporting event to fire a t-shirt gun. Jump off of your couch and grab it and you'd have a new way to dress up your Xbox Avatar. Or perhaps during half-time of a basketball game MS could hold a real half-court shooting competition amongst people all over the world. Both of these would be a great way for media companies to add extra engagement and reasons to watch things live streamed through an Xbox 360 as opposed to using the old DVR and fast-forwarding through commercials.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 12, 2010, 11:43:11 AM
that last part sounds all fine and dandy but just as likely to happen as IPTV when that was announced 3 years ago. So its just one more reason to hold off on Natal until it actually proves itself with real support and not just the promises of it that MS shows off @ trade shows.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 13, 2010, 08:45:42 PM
So apparently Project Natal will be called "Kinect". That sounds pretty bad to me, although not as bad as "PlayStation Move". Some games under development for it:
Kinectimals - Train and play with 20 virtual cats, including a lion, tiger, and cheetah. Joyride - Originally supposed to be a free Xbox Live Arcade game that used Avatars, it seems to control like the racing demo from E3 2009. Kinect Sports - Basically a clone of Wii Sports. Sports include boxing, bowling, beach volleyball, track and field, soccer and table tennis. Kinect Adventures - A river-raft time trial and obstacle course, playable by up to four players Dance Central - Described as basically being So You Think You Can Dance, it's being developed by MTV Games.
Microsoft is also working with LucasArts on a Star Wars game and Disney on a game featuring iconic Disney characters.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on June 13, 2010, 09:24:19 PM
Force unleashed 2. Forcepush!!!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 13, 2010, 09:34:54 PM
So apparently Project Natal will be called "Kinect". That sounds pretty bad to me, although not as bad as "PlayStation Move". Some games under development for it:
Kinectimals - Train and play with 20 virtual cats, including a lion, tiger, and cheetah. Joyride - Originally supposed to be a free Xbox Live Arcade game that used Avatars, it seems to control like the racing demo from E3 2009. Kinect Sports - Basically a clone of Wii Sports. Sports include boxing, bowling, beach volleyball, track and field, soccer and table tennis. Kinect Adventures - A river-raft time trial and obstacle course, playable by up to four players Dance Central - Described as basically being So You Think You Can Dance, it's being developed by MTV Games.
Microsoft is also working with LucasArts on a Star Wars game and Disney on a game featuring iconic Disney characters.
Hmm...I had kind of grown attached to the "Natal" name, but Kinect works for me even if it is a bit of a weird name. A better move than "Move" or "Wave", anyway.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 13, 2010, 09:52:09 PM
I like the name, but it is a weird name. It doesn't make immediate sense...Move at least makes sense to the mind...and Wii was a simple name and logo. Kinect is neither of those.
What is worse is that the games mentioned above are just horrible copies of Nintendo games. (I don't mean that the games are bad, they could be quite good) what I mean is that, you are launching a revolutionary product and your games you are showing are mere copies of other ideas?
Mario Kart Wii (Wheel Driving) Wii Sports Resort, Nintendogs, Dance Revolution Wii, Where is the innovation? The only game I am interested in is the dancing game, because I think that could be really fun if done right.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Shaymin on June 13, 2010, 10:21:19 PM
Weird that the Entertainment/Devices division at Microsoft has seemed to latch onto "Kin" as their name for everything. First you have the Kin One (http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=2540) and Kin Two (http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=2541) which were essentially Microsoft commissioned, and now Kinect.
Also, I smell crickets tomorrow when they announce the launch price.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 13, 2010, 10:24:53 PM
Wasn't the most recent rumor that it would be around $150? I don't think it will succeed if it costs that much, even $100 would be a stretch IMO.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: Mop it up on June 13, 2010, 10:26:49 PM
Did anyone else think of K'nex when they heard the name?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 13, 2010, 10:51:03 PM
MS tried to beat Nintendo to a Nintendcats???
pbpbppbpbpbbbbbbhahahahahahahahhhaha!!! E3 is gonna be so great. It's a shame I'm gonna miss it(LIVE).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 13, 2010, 10:55:32 PM
The names should provide laughs. Speaking of K'nex, "Kinectimals" sounds a lot like Danimals.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: UncleBob on June 14, 2010, 12:32:07 AM
http://yfrog.com/f/izlz7g/
Really?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Natal - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 01:42:11 AM
Are you saying that MS Kinect cost $189.99 and comes with Nintencats?
(http://imgur.com/YbiBn.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 01:58:57 AM
We've known about a tilt feature of the Kinect Camera for a while, but why does the camera have a motorized tilt? what would that be used for?
edit: and look @ how deep this thing is. (http://imgur.com/PV0Tc.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: MaryJane on June 14, 2010, 05:57:30 AM
Motorized tilt would be useful for exercise 'games' that require you to lie on the floor, and to adjust when you are sitting or standing to play a game.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2010, 08:07:54 AM
I read up on the game lineup at IGN, wow, that's catastrophic. Anything that sounds even remotely interesting is on rails.
Also anyone who thought MS would stay with the Natal name because they used it so much in press talk doesn't know MS. They always use the codename for a project in public and then later rename it. Windows Longhorn anyone?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 14, 2010, 08:17:16 AM
I actually really liked that box art/poster.
Not, that it will help the overall project.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: ShyGuy on June 14, 2010, 10:24:36 AM
I think this is going to be a massive failure.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 14, 2010, 10:36:39 AM
Kinect Adventures and Kinect: Star Wars sound like they could be good, but man that's a really lame launch line-up. It looks like Move will probably top it in terms of launch software.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on June 14, 2010, 11:49:56 AM
Kinect Adventures and Kinect: Star Wars sound like they could be good
They're on rails.
That didn't prevent the two Resident Evil Umbrella/Darkside Chronicles games from being good.
But no one was expecting them to be $150+ future-motion-control good.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 14, 2010, 12:14:21 PM
I can't believe a Star Wars game is finally coming out with motion and it isn't for Wii, the place that has had a proven swordfighter on the system for about a year already. Now that LucasArts only make starwars games you think they'd have one for all of the motion controlled sytems if they were halfway on the ball.
The animal games could be kind of cool if they show you on the tv with them but it would be really wierd since you can't touch them or anything. I never was interested in Nintendogs so I really don't know what people want in this kind of thing. Any thoughts you guys?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: stevey on June 14, 2010, 12:14:57 PM
Kinect Adventures and Kinect: Star Wars sound like they could be good
They're on rails.
That didn't prevent the two Resident Evil Umbrella/Darkside Chronicles games from being good.
But no one was expecting them to be $150+ future-motion-control good.
Funny, considering everyone was expecting them to be $200/$250 (the cost of the Wii) future-motion-control good.
Like I said before, I don't give a damn about Kinect, but in the grand scheme of things there are worse things that lineup could have than an on-rails Star Wars game...like all the other games in that launch list. :P: :
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 14, 2010, 12:22:15 PM
This might sound weird but when I first saw "Kinect" written down I had to stop and think about how to pronounce it. I initially thought it said "Kinetic" since that's a real word and all. I know it's just a respelling of "connect" but it was not immediately obvious to me. Hopefully of Microsoft's sake I'm an exception and most people will immediately know how to pronounce it.
Anyway judging by those Kinect games this whole thing saids somehow EVEN LAMER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD! HA HA!! Yeah, this is going to bomb.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 12:22:58 PM
Maybe the 3rd parties can save MS (as usual) since I think we've just seen what Rare has been upto.
Still waiting on Kinect: Milo & Kate though, that should be rather interesting presentation.
I also wonder if Sony is gonna come out with another Kinetic game for Move just to confuse MS's new name for Natal with a silly game that Sony has had for Eyetoy since 8+years ago.
Quote from: Ian Sane link=topic=28580.msg615268#msg615268 date=1276532535
This might sound weird but when I first saw "Kinect" written down I had to stop and think about how to pronounce it. I initially thought it said "Kinetic" since that's a real word and all. I know it's just a respelling of "connect" but it was not immediately obvious to me. Hopefully of Microsoft's sake I'm an exception and most people will immediately know how to pronounce it.
Anyway judging by those Kinect games this whole thing saids somehow EVEN LAMER THAN I THOUGHT IT WOULD! HA HA!! Yeah, this is going to bomb.
The new name is from MS new Kin line, like that horrible looking social interactive phone they got.
edit:
And the Kinect reveal reaction summary (http://i50.tinypic.com/212vo74.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 14, 2010, 12:33:34 PM
I thought people were complaining for a long time that E3 was getting too expensive. Apparently now MS has Cirque make a special performance just for a preshow thingamajiger. I get the feeling its goin to be all spectacle with celebrities and shows with little actually shown by MS.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2010, 12:43:18 PM
Because everyone has the space to conduct a circus in their living room, let alone space to play Kinect by themselves.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on June 14, 2010, 01:01:28 PM
Kin...ect?? Kin..as in family..YOU CAN NOW PLAY XNOZ 360 WITH YOUR FAMILY?? GENIUS
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 01:11:54 PM
(http://i50.tinypic.com/xqdz5g.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 01:18:31 PM
I thought people were complaining for a long time that E3 was getting too expensive. Apparently now MS has Cirque make a special performance just for a preshow thingamajiger. I get the feeling its goin to be all spectacle with celebrities and shows with little actually shown by MS.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: Caliban on June 14, 2010, 03:05:43 PM
Well it's out November 4th, but no price was announced.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2010, 03:15:35 PM
They're really going to compete with Donkey Zelda Kong Icarus?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 14, 2010, 03:24:51 PM
All of the games for this Kinect thing are "Kiddie" casual gamer crap. Frankly, I'm glad because that will help deflect some of that away from Nintendo for a change. But I doubt the Xbox's core following of Halo and other blood and gore games will really sink their teeth into this thing. The games for it are really not their cup of tea.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Project Kinect - Oct 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on June 14, 2010, 03:43:35 PM
to translate not exactly: how lame! you play with your hands?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 14, 2010, 08:00:52 PM
Kinect's lame first impression has given me a different perspective on the Wii's third party support. We've accused third parties of having it in for Nintendo and thus not giving a full effort with their Wii games. But third parties appear to like Microsoft because they give the Xbox 360 very good support. People (sort of) joked that all the third parties that treat the Wii like crap would suddenly bust out amazing motion control games on the HD consoles. Yet Kinect's lineup thus far, including the first party stuff, bears a shocking similarity to lame Wii third party games. We still have to see Move but it seems like no one aside from Nintendo is able to come up with anything remotely worth a **** for motion control. Maybe it's just really hard to work with, maybe the concept just isn't all that hot, maybe no one is willing to be creative, or maybe most developers have a hatred of motion controls (as opposed to a hatred of Nintendo).
It seems like it isn't bias against Nintendo or the weaker hardware because that isn't an issue with Kinect. It seems like motion controls are the issue. We may not know specifically why but that's the common ground. The details about Move will provide us further insight.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ShyGuy on June 14, 2010, 08:05:30 PM
Considering 3rd party support on the N64 and Gamecube, I think third parties hate more than motion control.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 14, 2010, 08:10:32 PM
I think we need to wait and see what Sony has to offer with Move before making that judgment. Kinect was an awful idea to begin with, and third parties aren't supporting it because it doesn't work for anything other than minigames and tech demos. Move, on the other hand, is a blatant and direct ripoff of Nintendo's controller, and thus has a lot of possible applications for more traditional games. If it doesn't get any real support, then you may have an argument.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ThePerm on June 14, 2010, 08:32:39 PM
sort of mentioned above 3rd parties never gave much support n64/gamecube era. They snuff Nintendo routinely like its fun. Maybe they are treating motion controls like **** because its something Nintendo initially pushed. Or maybe the game industry is just fucking stupid.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 09:45:44 PM
I would point all of you towards the article where Nintendo called Move and Kinect(Natal at the time) a threat to Nintendo's future, but I'm too lazy to go look for it right now.
This is exactly why too. To much shitty uninspired done for the sake of saying you did it tacked on motion support is not helping Nintendo push genuinely creative stuff into a market that is still receptive and appreciative of motion controls.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 14, 2010, 09:51:48 PM
I thought I would mention that Microsoft is going to discontinue all of the current 360 models. Whatever is out there is all there is going to be. The Kitect compatable verson is what Microsoft is going to be taking forward.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2010, 10:04:31 PM
"To say I was disappointed with Kinect would be putting it mildly. After waiting at the Galen Center for a couple of hours, other than the name, Kinect, nothing was revealed except a handful of pre-recorded demos where actors clearly pretended to control the on-screen characters (avatars) with their own body movement. At several points the avatars would move before the actors did, ruining the illusion of a real live demo of Kinect. This body-synch debacle makes Milli Vanilli's legendary lip-synch outrage look tame by comparison."
http://games.ign.com/articles/109/1096907p1.html
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on June 14, 2010, 10:09:13 PM
If the new model has a special connection for the Kinect, how does it plug into a current model?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 14, 2010, 10:13:19 PM
If the new model has a special connection for the Kinect, how does it plug into a current model?
It probably doesn't have one... You might have to buy the Kinect model.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Caliban on June 14, 2010, 10:13:24 PM
The new 360 has an orange labeled connection in the back. You know like the one on the Wii. Coincidental I guess. If you don't have a new 360 then it plugs through it's own adapter through the USB port of the old 360.
So basically:
*If you have new 360 it connects directly.
*If you have an old 360 it connects through one of its usb ports.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 14, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
"To say I was disappointed with Kinect would be putting it mildly. After waiting at the Galen Center for a couple of hours, other than the name, Kinect, nothing was revealed except a handful of pre-recorded demos where actors clearly pretended to control the on-screen characters (avatars) with their own body movement. At several points the avatars would move before the actors did, ruining the illusion of a real live demo of Kinect. This body-synch debacle makes Milli Vanilli's legendary lip-synch outrage look tame by comparison."
http://games.ign.com/articles/109/1096907p1.html
That same thing happened during the conference. One of the "game" models ducked or jumped or something way before the person on stage did, and then she tried her best to play catch up to the game.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 14, 2010, 10:33:36 PM
That's perfect. None of the products work nor exist.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on June 15, 2010, 12:22:47 AM
Gotta admit that MS completely failed to wow me with Kinect. Eventhough, it's too early to call a victor (obviously), I feel safe to say the MS lost E3.
EDIT: I honestly doubt Kinect will work right at launch if PRERECORDED footage was a fail. It'll probably need a patch soon after release. I'm surprised they still seem to have some work to do with the hardware.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 15, 2010, 12:29:33 AM
Gotta admit that MS completely failed to wow me with Kinect. Eventhough, it's too early to call a victor (obviously), I feel safe to say the MS lost E3.
EDIT: I honestly doubt Kinect will work right at launch if PRERECORDED footage was a fail. It'll probably need a patch soon after release. I'm surprised they still seem to have some work to do with the hardware.
Sony & Nintendo would have to have a TERRIBLE outing to lose E3 to MS at this point.
Maybe Nintendo doesn't reveal 3DS at all and focuses on Vitality Sensor and Wii Relax incidentally making the entire viewing audience so relaxed that we miss the rest of the conference. Too much focus on WiiParty and only a short glimpse of Zelda.
Sony cold have technical difficulties and drop a Move remote, the casing breaks open and a Wii remote falls out live on TV. Then they try to save the show by playing a clip of Killzone 3D and Halo: Reach starts playing on the big screen.
But I doubt anything of that sort will happen, so it's probably safe to say that MS has lost this round.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 15, 2010, 12:32:51 AM
If Microsoft isn't the loser, this is the worst E3 ever (yes, worse than 2007).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 15, 2010, 12:33:46 AM
Gotta admit that MS completely failed to wow me with Kinect. Eventhough, it's too early to call a victor (obviously), I feel safe to say the MS lost E3.
EDIT: I honestly doubt Kinect will work right at launch if PRERECORDED footage was a fail. It'll probably need a patch soon after release. I'm surprised they still seem to have some work to do with the hardware.
Sony & Nintendo would have to have a TERRIBLE outing to lose E3 to MS at this point.
Maybe Nintendo doesn't reveal 3DS at all and focuses on Vitality Sensor and Wii Relax incidentally making the entire viewing audience so relaxed that we miss the rest of the conference. Too much focus on WiiParty and only a short glimpse of Zelda.
Sony cold have technical difficulties and drop a Move remote, the casing breaks open and a Wii remote falls out live on TV. Then they try to save the show by playing a clip of Killzone 3D and Halo: Reach starts playing on the big screen.
But I doubt anything of that sort will happen, so it's probably safe to say that MS has lost this round.
You'd think that, but if IGN is any indication apparently the media have a very different impression of that Press Conference than we do, sadly. :'( And given that the media spin the message, that's not good.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on June 15, 2010, 12:46:33 AM
So wait, Microsoft didn't have a live showing of Kinect? Do they plan to?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 15, 2010, 01:07:15 AM
LOL NO
THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
BUT THE CONFERENCE IS A HONEYPOT OF LIES
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ymeegod on June 15, 2010, 01:56:51 AM
Man, can't believe MS's lame attempt at copying Nintendo. I was somewhat looking forward to the Natal before since it sounded like it was going cater to more hardcore games but 90% of the lineup is basically a clone from the WII.
BLEH. Only game I was interesting in was that Star Wars one :(. Worst E3 for MS since the orginal launch (where the xbox crashed during a gameplay demo with Bill Gates playing).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 15, 2010, 02:02:14 AM
MS doesn't want to do a live performance of Kinect for fear that it would crash on them.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on June 15, 2010, 02:23:10 AM
You'd think that, but if IGN is any indication apparently the media have a very different impression of that Press Conference than we do, sadly. :'( And given that the media spin the message, that's not good.
IGN UK/Australia wrote a VERY negative article on Kinect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 15, 2010, 02:31:14 AM
You'd think that, but if IGN is any indication apparently the media have a very different impression of that Press Conference than we do, sadly. :'( And given that the media spin the message, that's not good.
IGN UK/Australia wrote a VERY negative article on Kinect.
What, that article about what they felt was lacking in the Press Conference, which opens with the sentence "Overall, we were impressed with Microsoft's E3 2010 press conference (http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1096820p1.html)"? I'm not seeing a "VERY negative article on Kinect", unless you're counting that one where they compare the 6 Kinect games with their Wii/DS counterparts.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on June 15, 2010, 02:33:58 AM
"To say I was disappointed with Kinect would be putting it mildly. After waiting at the Galen Center for a couple of hours, other than the name, Kinect, nothing was revealed except a handful of pre-recorded demos where actors clearly pretended to control the on-screen characters (avatars) with their own body movement. At several points the avatars would move before the actors did, ruining the illusion of a real live demo of Kinect. This body-synch debacle makes Milli Vanilli's legendary lip-synch outrage look tame by comparison."
http://games.ign.com/articles/109/1096907p1.html
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: broodwars on June 15, 2010, 02:36:35 AM
"To say I was disappointed with Kinect would be putting it mildly. After waiting at the Galen Center for a couple of hours, other than the name, Kinect, nothing was revealed except a handful of pre-recorded demos where actors clearly pretended to control the on-screen characters (avatars) with their own body movement. At several points the avatars would move before the actors did, ruining the illusion of a real live demo of Kinect. This body-synch debacle makes Milli Vanilli's legendary lip-synch outrage look tame by comparison."
And that's an article about the Sunday Pre-E3 reveal for Kinect, not the Microsoft E3 Press Conference.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on June 15, 2010, 04:24:57 AM
Destructoid apparently declared 'Jihad' (http://video.destructoid.com/?a#164345) on Microsoft in response to the Kinetic presentation.
Honestly, I was really trying to keep an open mind but I just can't stand the thing after watching the conference. Too much fluff and ridiculous nonsense and the games looked really uninspired.
Tiger game was cute but felt very forced and too much like a Nintendogs knockoff.
Honestly, I think Nintendo proved years ago that 'Touching is Better' with the DS. Complete lack of feedback will ruin most of it. The WiiMote already struggles to give you proper feedback, and they expect empty hands to win out?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on June 15, 2010, 06:08:39 AM
The $149 price tag is going to seem a little high, especially if Nintendo drops the Wii to $149 which they may do to compete for holiday sales.
While there were a lot of crap games on display there were a few moments that showed the potential of Kinect, I want to see what some other developers have in the pipeline before fully passing judgment on it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on June 15, 2010, 06:43:31 AM
I want to see what some other developers have in the pipeline before fully passing judgment on it.
Uninspired shovelware that was based on the two principles that "casual gamers are stupid" and "it'll sell on novelty value"?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 16, 2010, 10:54:29 PM
LOL
(http://i46.tinypic.com/14czbq8.jpg)
& Ubisoft should be embarrassed. (http://i50.tinypic.com/2wnsivp.gif)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 19, 2010, 10:07:05 PM
And yet another reason why Kinect will fall on it's face out of the gates....
Dev's Say: Kinect no work when you no stand (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1099085p1.html)
Quote from: IGN
Standing Room Only
According to Microsoft, you can play some Kinect games sitting down. It "varies" by experience. However, several developers giving us demos have said the exact opposite. Sometimes the contradiction comes from the same person--one day telling us you have to be standing and then the next saying everything can be done while sitting.
Which is true? We don't know for certain, as we have not had the opportunity to play anything seated. Suffice to say, if you have to stand for every game (or for menu navigation), that's a big problem. This remains a concern until we ourselves can test out Kinect from our rear.
MS Sez: You No Sit! You Stand! (http://kotaku.com/5565777/xbox-kinect-does-not-play-well-with-couch-potatoes)
Quote from: Kotaku
You might have expected a seated Kinect experience from the Forza Motorsport team. Those folks are making Kinect driving games and tech demos. They've got a fun highway driving challenge that involves standing in front of the Kinect and steering by holding your hands in front of your body as if you were turning a real steering wheel. The perspective for this game experiment is inside the car, through the eyes of a driver. Rolling your shoulders in front of Kinect turns the game's camera view slightly, letting you look around inside the car. Your lower body is not used — no foot-forward-to-accelerate as was seen in a similar demonstration last year with racing game Burnout. Nevertheless, you have to play this one standing up if you are playing it at E3.
I asked one of the two members of Forza development studio Turn 10 if I could play their demo sitting down. They said I could not, that it was "optimized for standing." [...] I'd be worried less about this sitting thing — and I would stop asking the "sitting question" — if I had not been made to watch a movie via Kinect while standing up.
On Monday evening I participated in a brief demonstration of how Kinect could be used to control the Xbox 360 dashboard. This demonstration had me standing in front of the Kinect and using both hand-waves and voice commands to flip through menus on a TV and load applications such as movie-watching and video chat. There were chairs at this demo, but they were off to the side. I had to stand up.
The Kinect is superb at recognizing a standing player. It reads the presence of your body, detects 19 or so key joints in your frame and tracks your movement with magical immediacy. I had no more trouble swiping through the Kinect menus than I did steering the car in the Forza demo. Voice commands worked nicely as well, though I lamented that the Kinect couldn't distinguish my commands from anyone else's in the room. What I didn't understand is why I had to stand through all of this.
I liked telling the Xbox 360 to pause a movie. I liked extending my hand and dragging the movie's progress bar left or right, as if I was using the Star Wars Force to fast forward and rewind. But, I asked the Microsoft people running the demo, could I drag a chair over and try this sitting down?
No.
"Sitting is something we're still calibrating for," one of them told me.
Some time during the demo they showed me a video that simulated Kinect-powered video chat. That was going to be calibrated for sitting, right? And movie watching isn't really going to require me to stand, correct?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on June 20, 2010, 04:01:12 AM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 20, 2010, 04:08:32 AM
But that's not all
Natal is only 2 player...
Quote from: eurogamer
PrimeSense reps also told me that the camera can "see" any number of people on the screen -- you can fit as many people in that camera as possible, and the computer will see all of them and can even recognize them as human shapes. But it can only run calculations on two people at a time, just because the processing power required to track all of the body's locations and movements is so great. During our testing with the device, a person moving in front of the camera was able to "steal focus," but the computer can also be told through gestures to keep focus on a certain person.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on June 20, 2010, 04:12:57 AM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 20, 2010, 05:16:33 AM
I knew there wouldn't be 360 games using the controller and kinect. I guess there never will be unless you want to stand and play with the controller.
What really gets me about it is that people had to apparently stand up to even control watching a movie. That feature is worthless if I have to stand up and YMCA the movie off.
The lack of four players thing is inexcusable. One reason Wii is such a party machine was that four people could play tennis at the same time. It was difficult to find room for all the people but I loved it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on June 20, 2010, 06:50:19 AM
Yeah, lack of 4 players is epic fail in my book. Once I got the option in the N64 I thought we could never go back and yet systems like the PS2 and now Kinect tell us otherwise.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Adrock on June 20, 2010, 10:45:53 AM
Props to Microsoft for jumping on the motion control bandwagon without flat-out ganking Nintendo's idea. Too bad Kinect is just a sh*tty idea in general and a sh*ttier idea to launch 6 years into a console's run.
And I agree with Stratos, lack of 4 player is total epic fail. Of all the things not to steal from Nintendo........
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 20, 2010, 11:52:15 AM
Ha. Wow...Microsoft you did just the opposite of what Sony did with Motion control.
Microsoft used developing technology not quite ready for current market and tried to place it in the market for gaming. I have no doubt Kinect WILL work sitting down, but right now the Xbox 360 just isn't powerful enough to do great things with it. Now, next console will probably work great with Kinects right outta the box...but that is next generation.
Sony, used old tech that they had been working on for while, and created motion controls with it, that work, although the controller still looks extremely dumb...but since this is old technology works GREAT with the current generation hardware.
Congrats Sony...you learned from Nintendo. Microsoft, you learned from yourself and your pathetic mistakes.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 20, 2010, 12:05:39 PM
I don't think the two-player limit is what will hurt it, think it's the rumored (I say rumored since Microsoft has not confirmed it) $150 pricepoint that will kill it. The 15 game launch lineup looks pathetic, it is filled with four fitness games (three of which are Wii ports), ports of Wii games, and clones of Wii games. Just about the only original game at launch will be Kinect Joy Ride.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 20, 2010, 04:22:30 PM
Its possible over the next year that Microsoft can't optimize and patch Kinect for 4 player, and sitting down. Certainly a doable possibility with a years time.
When I watched the E3 conference, I was interested in trying Kinect Adventures, Your Shape (looked awesome), MTV Dance Game, and Dance Masters (Konami). I don't think any of those games looked bad.
Were all of the demos faked? There's no way.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on June 20, 2010, 04:37:15 PM
No, 4 players would take too much CPU, that can't easily be patched (maybe it would have worked had MS not removed the processing chip in the camera for cost reasons). Maybe games could sacrifice visuals for more players but... Not happening on the 360.
All the demos at the conferences were faked (probably to avoid a situation like Miyamoto had with Zelda) but there were apparently playable demos at the booth.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 20, 2010, 04:43:01 PM
What?! Optimization is always possible. And its possible that Kinect can be patched, how would we know. Anything can be optimized anywhere. Maybe they can already do 3/4 of a 3rd person, but just left it out. That isn't that much optimization.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 20, 2010, 06:08:34 PM
No, 4 players would take too much CPU, that can't easily be patched (maybe it would have worked had MS not removed the processing chip in the camera for cost reasons). Maybe games could sacrifice visuals for more players but... Not happening on the 360.
All the demos at the conferences were faked (probably to avoid a situation like Miyamoto had with Zelda) but there were apparently playable demos at the booth.
Reports from the Primesense say that they put that chip back in. Natal was too limited without it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: kraken613 on June 20, 2010, 06:25:00 PM
I will never buy this until I can buy it for $50 or less.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on June 20, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
Why does the 4 player Kinect have to be patched in? Why can't they make it work when it is launched? Why does game companys have to patch things in later?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on June 20, 2010, 07:14:17 PM
Why does the 4 player Kinect have to be patched in? Why can't they make it work when it is launched? Why does game companys have to patch things in later?
Because they have to get things out at certain speeds in order for them to seem legitimately marketable. Some times discoveries such as optimizations aren't made until stress levels have lowered.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on June 21, 2010, 12:44:27 PM
With the standing up thing I'm wondering if this will perhaps be the biggest bomb in videogame history. This has NOTHING going for it. It already had enough reasons for it to fail before they revealed the standing limitation and the two-player only limitation. Now they just need an insanely high price.
Give me a pro for Kinect. Seriously what positive element does it have? It looks to control like **** to begin with, and none of the games look any good, and you have to stand up to play, and it's only two players. What is there that actually impresses?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on June 21, 2010, 12:51:37 PM
Its not a bomb already, Kinect is No. 2 on Amazon's best sellers in the video game category. And thats just to pre-order it.
With the standing up thing I'm wondering if this will perhaps be the biggest bomb in videogame history. This has NOTHING going for it. It already had enough reasons for it to fail before they revealed the standing limitation and the two-player only limitation. Now they just need an insanely high price.
Give me a pro for Kinect. Seriously what positive element does it have? It looks to control like **** to begin with, and none of the games look any good, and you have to stand up to play, and it's only two players. What is there that actually impresses?
(http://i48.tinypic.com/15zgn4z.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 21, 2010, 08:18:03 PM
With the standing up thing I'm wondering if this will perhaps be the biggest bomb in videogame history. This has NOTHING going for it. It already had enough reasons for it to fail before they revealed the standing limitation and the two-player only limitation. Now they just need an insanely high price.
Give me a pro for Kinect. Seriously what positive element does it have? It looks to control like **** to begin with, and none of the games look any good, and you have to stand up to play, and it's only two players. What is there that actually impresses?
You ask and you shall receive....
Kinect cost MS $150 each to manufacture (http://www.develop-online.net/news/35198/Source-pins-Kinect-manufacturing-costs-to-150)
Quote
Publisher claims Microsoft ended up spending far more than expected on the device
Microsoft is paying around $150 in total manufacturing costs for each Kinect unit, Develop understands.
A highly-positioned, trusted source had given Develop the “$150 manufacturing cost” figure on the condition of anonymity, adding that the expenses of Kinect is a topic of concern for his company.
The news comes in the wake of rumours suggesting an internal struggle at Microsoft on the retail price of Kinect, a kit once touted to sell at £50, but now thought will cost over twice the price.
Microsoft says the company “does not comment on rumour or speculation”.
Last year a publishing source told MCV that Microsoft is “trying to get as close as possible to impulse buy” with Kinect – a plan which is looking less likely as evidence points towards a $150 retail price for the device.
Screen Digest games analyst Ed Barton said he was “not surprised” by the $150 manufacturing figure that Develop put to him.
“In pure console peripheral terms, $150 costs are expensive but the question is how much Microsoft is wiling to cut to raise market share,” he said.
“The further above manufacturing costs it is, the tougher it becomes. Especially since Microsoft is targeting Kinect to a more casual market.
“Presumably, a big portion of Microsoft’s target market for Kinect won’t have a console already, so adding in the console costs along with the camera costs, the result is starting to look a bit pricey.”
Microsoft had previously acquired Primesense, a 3D imaging company based out of Israel. The firm brought with it a number of patents and technologies for Kinect.
Barton believes that the Primesense acquisition may come into the cost equation.
“There’s basic hardware tear-down costs,” he says, “but Kinect isn’t just a number of components, it’s also a software layer – one that is absolutely key for the whole experience.
“Kinect’s R&D costs might be sunk into the manufacturing costs, because Microsoft needed to ensure that Kinect’s basic imaging actually has a software layer that can be fed into the developer toolchain.
“These are things that require investment, and serious expertise, and would argue would have pushed the manufacturing costs of Kinect up even more”.
But Barton is confident that, with Kinect, Microsoft has a technology that can be implemented in different sectors outside of traditional gaming.
“I wouldn’t at all be surprised to see Microsoft apply the technologies elsewhere, for things like video conferencing,” he said.
“It may have been possible, in its planning, that Microsoft has decided the investment it has made into Kinect can spread across all sorts of areas beyond gaming.
“The commercial guys at Microsoft will obviously want to sell the unit at its lowest price, but the accountants will be arguing that Microsoft has to start paying for all the R&D and goods that got it to this position.
“The one thing that Microsoft has proven over the last few years, especially with its aggressive price cuts, is that the company is prepared to add pressure on itself to win market share.”
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on June 21, 2010, 08:39:16 PM
It's hard to imagine a more poorly conceived add-on. Every new detail decreases its potential appeal. No wonder investors are calling for MS to cut the Xbox brand.
The troubling thing, for Xbox, is that if Microsoft continues to push this after it's failed in the marketplace, they could undo any marketshare/customer interest they've gained with 360 (outside of RRoD).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 22, 2010, 02:22:40 AM
It's OFFICIAL
Kinect is priced at $150 in MS's own Online store http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Kinect-Sensor-for-Xbox-360/product/C737B081 (http://store.microsoft.com/microsoft/Kinect-Sensor-for-Xbox-360/product/C737B081)
Quote
What comes in the box Kinect sensor for Xbox 360 Power supply cable User's manual Wi-Fi extension cable
Before you buy Here's what you'll need to use the Kinect sensor: Xbox 360 console 6 feet (1.8 meters) between you and your television for play space† You!
Technical specifications Color VGA Motion Camera 640 x 480 pixel resolution at 30FPS Depth Camera 640 x 480 pixel resolution at 30FPS Array of 4 microphones supporting single speaker voice recognition
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on June 22, 2010, 05:27:52 AM
So an Arcade system ($99) plus Kinect ($150) makes it $249. Same as Wii but without the pack-in game. Doesn't matter that you get free games with the 360, anyone taking the plunge for Kinect will want Kinect specific software. No pack-in game could hurt their target market's interest when there are cheaper motion options.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on June 22, 2010, 05:34:24 AM
So an Arcade system ($99) plus Kinect ($150) makes it $249. Same as Wii but without the pack-in game. Doesn't matter that you get free games with the 360, anyone taking the plunge for Kinect will want Kinect specific software. No pack-in game could hurt their target market's interest when there are cheaper motion options.
Unless Microsoft dropped the price again in the last few days, the Arcade model is $150, not $100, and that's only as long as supply lasts. They've said that there will be a lower-end model of the new Slim 360, but its specifics and price haven't been announced yet. [/TJ Spyke]
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shaymin on June 22, 2010, 08:45:59 AM
A "Arcade" slim is apparently coming this fall (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/21/200-dollar-xbox-360-coming-this-fall/) and it would be $200.
So Kinect + Arcade = $350.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on June 22, 2010, 11:11:21 AM
Plus Nintendo is not $249 for the Wii.
But $199.99 for the Wii plus Wii Sports, and Wii Sports Resort and Wii Motion Plus.
So obviously, the choice is Nintendo for $200.00 you are set up with 2 games. Now, take that extra money $150.00 and buy Wii Play, and any game that packs in the Wii motion Plus, and you have 2 complete controllers and 2 more games for still less than the price for the Kinect experience.
I don't even want to talk about the bargins you can get in comparison to the Sony Move experience.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 22, 2010, 11:25:55 AM
The system price is a bit much but how much will the games cost?
Are Kinect games going to be the typical 60$ price? That destroys any kind of spur of the moment purchase and I have the feeling the publishers won't want to give up their high price tag.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: that Baby guy on June 22, 2010, 06:07:02 PM
Kinect games, I believe, are all supposed to be a lower cost at retail. I think $40 is actually their target price-point right now.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on June 22, 2010, 06:11:08 PM
None of the launch games worth more than $40; ports of Wii games, clones of Wii games, and casual games. I hate the term, but there are no "hardcore" games announced for Kinect.
Title: Xbox 360 Kinect
Post by: BeastMode on June 28, 2010, 04:36:46 PM
hey guys! tell me what your opinion is on the kinect that microsoft is developing! :D
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 06, 2010, 01:15:04 AM
Possible Kinect Display box and boxart (http://kotaku.com/5579591/kinects-simple-purple-box-art?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+kotaku%2Ffull+%28Kotaku%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)
(http://www.abload.de/img/kinectbox2khcf.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on July 06, 2010, 01:34:19 AM
It's minty fresh!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 06, 2010, 03:45:24 AM
Possible Kinect Display box and boxart (http://kotaku.com/5579591/kinects-simple-purple-box-art?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+kotaku%2Ffull+%28Kotaku%29&utm_content=Google+Reader)
(http://www.abload.de/img/kinectbox2khcf.jpg)
Where is the big warning sign over the people sitting down?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on July 06, 2010, 03:53:27 AM
Who the hell has a living room with that much space? If you have that much space you fill it with crap. That's how space works.
I do. Couldn't find matching crap. :(
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Peachylala on July 07, 2010, 02:21:01 AM
Go to IKEA.
I repeat. I. KEY. YA.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on July 07, 2010, 03:42:39 PM
But I want GOOD crap.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on July 08, 2010, 04:13:10 AM
The sitting people don't count because there are already two people standing up. Kinect can't see the couch sitters anyway.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 13, 2010, 05:40:44 PM
For those interested, Walmart has started taking pre-orders for a Kinect bundle. The bundle is $199 and includes the Kinect sensor, a $30 gift card, and one of six games:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Dance Central Joy Ride Kinectimals Kinect Sports Kinect Adventures
Does Kinect even come with anything by itself? If not, $150 just for the sensor is ridiculous. Even including a game for free would be too high. As for this bundle, you basically just get the gift card free since Kinect games will be $50-$60.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 13, 2010, 06:25:02 PM
For those interested, Walmart has started taking pre-orders for a Kinect bundle. The bundle is $199 and includes the Kinect sensor, a $30 gift card, and one of six games:
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Dance Central Joy Ride Kinectimals Kinect Sports Kinect Adventures
Does Kinect even come with anything by itself? If not, $150 just for the sensor is ridiculous. Even including a game for free would be too high. As for this bundle, you basically just get the gift card free since Kinect games will be $50-$60.
(http://i29.tinypic.com/ixrpja.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: broodwars on July 20, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
It's official (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3180471): Kinect will be $150 and will be bundled with Kinect Adventures. Hefty price, but Kinect Adventures did look kind of cool. If Microsoft ever announces any core games that use Kinect, it might be worth checking out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on July 20, 2010, 04:19:38 PM
At $150, it just doesn't grab me as something that I would really want. I still need to see more significant software to be used with the thing and if Kinect Adventures is actually any good.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on July 20, 2010, 09:34:25 PM
The $299 bundle seems like a pretty decent deal actually, and I think the matte finish 4GB 360 will look a lot better than the shiny 250GB model anyway.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ymeegod on July 20, 2010, 11:54:44 PM
What's even worse, Joy Ride isn't free anymore so while you do get Kinect Adventures you'll lose out JR which is the one I rather play anyhow.
Saddly people are still pre-orderring it anyways, me I might get it once more mainstream games start using it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 21, 2010, 05:44:20 PM
Why is the MS Kinect better than a Sony Move or Nintendo Wii?
Let's check the Comparison Chart
(http://imgur.com/gxVzO.png)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 21, 2010, 05:53:03 PM
Sadly, I could see Microsoft touting BS like that as I have seen them do stuff like that before.
Even bundling Kinect Adventures with it doesn't make it worth $150 for me. I am glad Microsoft confirmed that they won't be adding the $10 HD tax to first party Kinect games though, they will all be $50 (third parties can charge what they want to though).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 21, 2010, 06:02:44 PM
In the current console owner list they forgot to mention how the current Wii owner has likely owned Wiifit/+ and the 2nd and probably 3rd & 4th controllers for about 2+ years now.
That extra $150 could be spent on 3 more games that aren't WiiSports/Resort(that came free with the system) clones.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 21, 2010, 07:59:48 PM
LOL @ this single player chart
(http://imgur.com/8jzLp.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DmentD on July 22, 2010, 02:54:42 PM
I guess I won't be getting a Kinect.......$150 is rape if you ask me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Louieturkey on July 22, 2010, 03:16:12 PM
Hey BnM you left out the 3D HDTV and 3D glasses X4 for true augmented reality on the PS3. :)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Deguello on July 22, 2010, 03:18:52 PM
I don't think BnM made that graph. If he did he would have included a second move which is required for some single player games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 22, 2010, 03:30:18 PM
Hey BnM you left out the 3D HDTV and 3D glasses X4 for true augmented reality on the PS3. :)
No i didn't make it, but I think this chart (minus the balance board -WTF?) addresses that (http://i25.tinypic.com/16bdm39.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on July 22, 2010, 10:17:50 PM
I expect the Kinect to sell about as well as the EyeToy, which I believe was a little less than 10% of PS2 owners. 10% of the XBox 360 userbase is less than 3 million, is it not? That's what I'm predicting.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 22, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
At least EyeToy was cheap. The EyeToy really only did well in Europe, I wonder if Kinect will be the same?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on July 23, 2010, 03:40:00 PM
Were they really only adding WiiFit to make the Wii look more expensive? That seems pretty desperate. MS should know Kinect isn't gonna be the price leader. They really just need to go back and emphasize what sets them apart, ie the "full body control."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on July 23, 2010, 08:27:21 PM
It's a fair comparison. The Wii Balance Board enables games to be controlled by tilting your body, which is one thing the Kinect can do. So, in order for Wii to offer most of the functionality of the Kinect, it needs a Balance Board.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on July 24, 2010, 04:20:26 AM
True, but that's an optional form of play that's not as widespread as waggle.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 24, 2010, 10:27:10 AM
In short: MS needs to pick a goal (expanding the market or making money from the hardcore) and stick with it, their current approach satisfies neither.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 25, 2010, 02:50:20 AM
I read that Kinect has demos in some department stores.
Have any of you seen one or tried it out?
I would be shocked if they had any demos in stores yet. It doesn't come out for over 3 months and MS is supposedly still fine-tuning technical aspects of it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on July 25, 2010, 06:16:00 AM
I would be shocked if they had any demos in stores yet. It doesn't come out for over 3 months and MS is supposedly still fine-tuning technical aspects of it.
It says here (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/09/kinect-demos-available-next-week-at-macys/)that they've been in Macy's stores since the 15th. If you've got one nearby check it out.
With three months left they can't really be doing anything important. The games at launch don't have time to change so the day one functionality has to be set in stone already.
I'm sure they are messing with it and will have a few firmware updates but I think it is mostly MS hype so people can say "Maybe it will get better. They are still working on it." I don't see any miracles in the future especially when they have had more than enough time already. What we see now is what it is always going to do.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 25, 2010, 11:25:56 AM
I wish I knew which 13 cities those demos are in, I doubt mine is one of them though.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on July 25, 2010, 05:49:09 PM
Here's a better link http://www.wouldyoukindly.com/these-macys-stores-will-let-you-try-out-xbox-kinect
I'll give it a whirl.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 25, 2010, 10:26:26 PM
Maybe I'll check it out. Are the displays up till launch?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 25, 2010, 11:45:27 PM
The link says they will be up for just a short time, so I don't expect it to last until launch.
To no surprise, the closest one to me is 6 hours away in New York City. It looks like my only chance to try it out is if Microsoft will be able to get a wider demo area as the release date gets closer.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on July 26, 2010, 04:35:54 AM
I've got one less than 10 miles away and I'm still too damn lazy to make the trip.
With laziness like that, how do you expect to "use your body as a controller"? I know I'll be too lazy to do it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on July 26, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
The closest one to me is at least a two-hour drive. Though I probably wouldn't bother checking the thing out even if it were right across the street.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on July 26, 2010, 08:15:12 PM
So much laziness in here; is this the Nintendo developer thread hr hr
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on July 27, 2010, 01:31:26 AM
The closest one to me is 8 hours away. I suppose it's just as well; even if the Macy's in the mall here had it I probably wouldn't go since I rarely ever go to that mall and wouldn't make a special trip.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on July 27, 2010, 04:32:22 PM
I saw a video for Kinect in Wal-mart last night. It had every person sitting down when interacting with the device. So either they fixed the problem, they are lying, or they got it to work but only when they are really close to the TV. All of the couches seemed oddly close from what I saw.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on July 27, 2010, 06:12:26 PM
My room is small so I sit about 4 1/2 feet from my TV, did the video look like that is how far the people were sitting?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on July 28, 2010, 12:05:21 AM
My room is small so I sit about 4 1/2 feet from my TV, did the video look like that is how far the people were sitting?
It was definitely no more that 6tf away. Probably around 5ish if I recall. Let me see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on July 29, 2010, 04:29:23 PM
How about we collect reasons as to why Kinect is likely fail
I'll state the most obvious 1. $149.99
and then I give you this 2. http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/14/press-the-pele-button-to-see-kinect-sports-soccer-footage/#continued (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/07/14/press-the-pele-button-to-see-kinect-sports-soccer-footage/#continued) ^Is that supposed to be fun? Is that all there is to it? If it is, then why bother?
But on the flipside, here are some screen shots from other sports in WiiHD Kinect Sports edit: just realized that I never posted the link to the pics :D http://www.digitalgames.fr/2010/07/29/kinect-sports-transpire-en-images/ (http://www.digitalgames.fr/2010/07/29/kinect-sports-transpire-en-images/)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Caliban on July 30, 2010, 12:50:51 PM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 05, 2010, 01:07:55 AM
Kinect: Gutted on the operating room table http://www.t3.com/feature/exclusive-how-does-microsoft-xbox-kinect-work? (http://www.t3.com/feature/exclusive-how-does-microsoft-xbox-kinect-work?)
More from Gizmodo http://gizmodo.com/5604308/deep-inside-xbox-360-kinect-the-interface-of-microsofts-dreams (http://gizmodo.com/5604308/deep-inside-xbox-360-kinect-the-interface-of-microsofts-dreams)
This thing looks HUGE in that persons hands.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on August 07, 2010, 04:24:42 PM
The Kinect drivers only support Avatars (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-case-for-kinect-article?page=2), if you want the player character to be anything else you have to implement your own interpreter software. Expect tons of crappy implementations.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on August 07, 2010, 04:37:27 PM
The Kinect drivers only support Avatars (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-case-for-kinect-article?page=2), if you want the player character to be anything else you have to implement your own interpreter software. Expect tons of crappy implementations.
Quote from: from article
Kinect's unique set-up and its basic hardware limitations practically begs for innovation in control and gameplay design. Game-makers will find it hard to port over their existing concepts to the system and in the long run, this may turn out to be a good thing in making Kinect separate and distinct from other systems. Games like Child of Eden are a good example of that.
Why does that sound so damn familiar?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on August 07, 2010, 05:09:50 PM
Problem is that they are backing it with stronger hardware. Plus the 360 is really the 'market leader' from a gamer standpoint. It stands a better chance of getting unique quality 3rd party support than Wii did.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on August 07, 2010, 05:34:00 PM
Not to mention the fact that Microsoft isn't afraid to give out moneyhats.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on August 07, 2010, 06:17:33 PM
Problem is that they are backing it with stronger hardware. Plus the 360 is really the 'market leader' from a gamer standpoint. It stands a better chance of getting unique quality 3rd party support than Wii did.
But core gamers don't want to play as their avatars, that's casual stuff.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on August 07, 2010, 07:50:17 PM
The Kinect drivers only support Avatars (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-the-case-for-kinect-article?page=2), if you want the player character to be anything else you have to implement your own interpreter software. Expect tons of crappy implementations.
Quote from: from article
Kinect's unique set-up and its basic hardware limitations practically begs for innovation in control and gameplay design. Game-makers will find it hard to port over their existing concepts to the system and in the long run, this may turn out to be a good thing in making Kinect separate and distinct from other systems. Games like Child of Eden are a good example of that.
Why does that sound so damn familiar?
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Peachylala on August 08, 2010, 11:41:59 PM
Problem is that they are backing it with stronger hardware. Plus the 360 is really the 'market leader' from a gamer standpoint. It stands a better chance of getting unique quality 3rd party support than Wii did.
And this was what Nintendo themselves expected even before the Wii released.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on August 08, 2010, 11:47:14 PM
With its $150 pricepoint, I don't think anyone expects Kinect to be anything but niche. So far I haven't heard of any multi-platform games that will use Kinect (whereas there have been multiple multi-platform games that will use PlayStation Move).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on August 09, 2010, 12:43:00 AM
I went a little after 6 and it was only showing a demo reel... maybe I should get there earlier :-*
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 03, 2010, 05:15:24 PM
Looks like Kinect has NO voice support for countries other than US, Mexico, Japan, Britain.
Microsoft Kinect - In Germany, no voice Microsoft has confirmed to Euro Gamer, that Kinect initially be controlled by language in the U.S., Britain, Mexico and Japan.
Microsoft Kinect In other countries, including Germany, France, Italy and Spain will be the function until the spring of 2011 filed later will be. This is because Microsoft says that speech recognition is a very complex area and, for example, the echo suppression in 5.1 or stereo sound, which was considered impossible before, working with Kinect.
But that was not related to a lot of effort, since one must also take into account many different aspects of language, such as an accent. Therefore, the speech recognition is activated only in those countries for which these works are completed.
This also means that, for example in Germany a voice in English will not be possible as expected Kinect here either American or British pronunciation, were created for the two separate versions. Canadian English is also there until the spring of 2011.
The fact that Spain still has to wait, while Mexico is already supported, is, according to Microsoft because it 106 million in the U.S. and Mexico are 13 million Spanish-speaking residents whose Spanish is not identical with "Spanish Spanish. learn whether Austrians and Swiss for Kinect may have pure High German, but is not known.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on September 03, 2010, 05:42:47 PM
Wow things keep piling up against Kinect. Is there anything going for it?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 03, 2010, 06:18:44 PM
The company confirmed rumours that the voice-recognition software will only accept American English, British English, Japanese and Mexican Spanish at launch this November. Even Canadians will have to wait until spring 2011 to be able to control the system via voice.
Frustratingly, even those fluent in English - or Spanish speakers that can imitate Mexican Spanish - won't be allowed to activate Kinect voice recognition due to the region-locked status of their Xbox 360.
So you can't even use the language if you are not in the region.....
Wow things keep piling up against Kinect. Is there anything going for it?
you can say that again.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on September 03, 2010, 07:04:47 PM
Outright disabling the option if you're not in the region is stupid. What if you're originally from the States and just moved somewhere else? How is that any different than being an American in terms of voice recognition? And let's not forget that American immigrants will likely have accents that don't match up with the voice recognition despite being Americans living in the United States.
Of course that reveals the whole stupidity of voice recognition to begin with. Every single person I have ever met hates it when the phone some company and get a voice recognition system. There are too many variables in accents and dialects and the "benefit" of voice recognition is so minor it's not really worth the effort to get it right. Voice recognition is just a "wow neato" thing people see in sci-fi movies and then think that's the future when the concept is not only hard to get to work right but also is not really that convenient.
But then isn't that Kinect in a nutshell? The whole things sounds like a cool idea in theory if you watch Minority Report and then never think for even a second of what it would be like to really use it, assuming it even worked correctly. Buttons are the past, present and future because they're precise. They're yes/no and you know clearly when you push them. Everything else is a fad. Motion control and voice recognition have too many variables that make them prone to error and they require more effort from the user.
I'm certain that as a Canadian Kinect would recognize my voice. It's stupid that it won't be ready in Canada on day one. We have like four or five accents in the entire country. If they can get all the American accents working (and certainly they have not) then you can include Canadian ones. Hell I sound no different than anyone I meet in Seattle anyway. Only in the more rural areas of Washington state do I encounter an accent.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shaymin on September 03, 2010, 07:06:58 PM
I'd like to thank Ian for saying what I was thinking, and managing to avoid using 200 four-letter words in the process.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 03, 2010, 11:15:16 PM
Canadian English is not a different language, just different spelling. If you are going by accents, accents vary even in a tiny country like the UK. Here in the US, someone from Boston sounds vastly different from someone in Dallas, for example. Kinect uses the Xbox 360, so it makes sense it will use the region the system is from.
Besides, voice control in Kinect was only confirmed recently anyways. The main draw was navigating through motions. I won't be getting Kinect, but only because it's not worth $150 +tax (so $162 for me).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 11, 2010, 10:59:49 AM
How MS Kinect won.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMIympfL98I&feature=player_embedded) the screaming fan girl market -or- How YOU just got Bieber Rolled Baited :P:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Caliban on September 11, 2010, 01:33:55 PM
Man were they loud.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 17, 2010, 06:59:59 PM
MS Believe Kinect Will 'Blow Away' iPad Sales (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/112/1121570p1.html)
Quote
Micrsoft's Kudo Tsunoda believes that Kinect will 'blow away' sales of the iPad when it launches later this year.
"The preorders have been really strong. As far as what we're looking at for Holiday, this is going to be stuff that'll blow away any of the sales you've seen with iPad," Tsunoda told Gamasutra. "The Xbox 360 is already selling better than the Wii and Sony right now. Kinect's really just going to boost that to a whole new level."
no comment
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on September 17, 2010, 07:47:23 PM
How well has the iPad done? At the time of its announcement it was almost unanimously made fun of. However it seems to be a popular status symbol at my work.
I predict Kinect will either be a huge disaster or it will do the exact opposite and surprise the **** of every sane person by being a hot item. That is usually how things go. If I think something is utterly ridiculous and has no chance of success it either does bomb exactly like I thought it would or it becomes a runaway success for no logical reason. It is always one extreme. Middle-of-the-road success is only for good products or middling average-to-bad products that are not poor enough to attract attention for their low quality.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 17, 2010, 08:17:34 PM
How well has the iPad done? At the time of its announcement it was almost unanimously made fun of.
The iPad is selling very well. It is still ridiculed by some, but studies have shown that the people who actually own them love them, something I can personally vouch for.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shaymin on September 17, 2010, 09:12:37 PM
The iPad's near 4 million since March. If I was Vegas, I'd set the line on Kinect at 300k and recommend the under.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 17, 2010, 09:34:34 PM
It depends on how long Microsoft is willing to stick with it and how much money they're willing to spend giving out moneyhats to get decent software support for it. Even under the best of circumstances, though, I think 4 million is a stretch.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on September 18, 2010, 02:06:32 AM
Even then, 4 million is practically a failure.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on September 18, 2010, 06:07:23 AM
The Virtual Boy sold 770k.
Just wanted to throw that out since VB is Nintendo's failure and worth comparing to Kinect sales.
Also: 3DO sold 2 million Jaguar 250k Dreamcast 10.6 million Saturn 9.5
These were all generally accepted as failed systems.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 18, 2010, 10:38:11 AM
Kinect is just a add-on though, so it's not really apt to compare sales to systems.
There's no chance in hell that Kinect will even do 1/10th of what iPad has done, yet alone what it will do. iPad is overpriced for what it is, but I can't even consider paying $162 for Kinect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 18, 2010, 11:17:36 AM
then both Kinect & Move can cry now. Everyone will far too busy spending their disposable income on 3DS this holiday shopping season to have anything left to waste on barely supported add-ons that came way to late and/or too high a price.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 19, 2010, 02:00:09 AM
If it works as its supposed to I can see Kinect being a popular thing for party games and dance games, and it has some obvious advantages that neither Move or the Wii can match in that regard. However, Kinect requires the player to stand, so I can't see it being popular with MOST gamers. The fact of the matter is most people who own and play the 360 are hardcore gamers who quite frankly are couch potatoes. Even if hardcore games like Halo or Resident Evil were made to work with Kinect, I doubt they would be interested because they would prefer to sit on their ass and mash buttons and just burn as few calories as possible.
So it might be popular with nongamers and exercisers, but then again the Wii already has that market locked up tight. So I'm predicting Kinect will be a modest success for certain demographics, but over all it will be a failure and MS will probably pull the plug on it after awhile and then come out with a new motion gimmick that will allow gamers to sit down as they play, just like the Wii and Move do.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 19, 2010, 03:14:20 AM
I was ignoring Kinect completely, but I can't help but be interested in how they intend to do Steel Battalion with it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on September 19, 2010, 06:33:49 AM
I was ignoring Kinect completely, but I can't help but be interested in how they intend to do Steel Battalion with it.
You mean they are going to TRY?!? I can't even imagine how you would pull that off. Isn't that the game with the uber huge dashboard-joystick-controler-thing?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 19, 2010, 06:04:14 PM
I was ignoring Kinect completely, but I can't help but be interested in how they intend to do Steel Battalion with it.
You mean they are going to TRY?!? I can't even imagine how you would pull that off. Isn't that the game with the uber huge dashboard-joystick-controler-thing?
Yeah, that's the one. They had a 5-on-5 setup of them at PAX, and I had a lot of fun playing it, but so much of that was the controller. If they go for Minority Report style virtual giant control panel and pull it off (obviously a long shot) they've sold me a Kinect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on September 21, 2010, 11:38:57 AM
Sonic Riders Kinect: If you thought Sonic Riders would be improved by awful full body motion controls!
I read that you need to implement the motion detection yourself if you want the player character to be anything except avatars so this is probably not representative of the best detection the system can do but it's likely representative of what most developers will do with it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 26, 2010, 11:35:32 AM
A total of 3 Kinect TV ads were just unveiled. One for the Wii Sports inspired Kinect Sports from RARE, another for the Mario Kart inspired Joy Ride and last but not least the Nintendogs inspired Kinectimals. Not much gameplay shown but the concept is nice.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on September 26, 2010, 05:37:24 PM
The most exciting one of those commercials was Kinectimals, and that's only if you're a pedophile.
Pretty weak all around.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 28, 2010, 12:50:11 PM
MS: Kinect launch will be bigger than PS3, 360, Wii http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=267017
Quote
Microsoft has claimed that Kinect's launch can be bigger than that of every console in history - including Xbox 360 itself.
According to Microsoft studios boss Phil Spencer, the peripheral - which arrives in November - will represent "the biggest console launch ever".
"We are investing in this like we've never invested in a platform launch," he told Edge in a new interview. "This is, for us, the biggest platform launch in the history of the industry.
"We'll have a huge launch portfolio, we want to sell more units than any console has ever sold in its first holiday, a new platform. Our retail partners are telling us, based on the consumer demand, "this is going to be the number one consumer electronics purchase this holiday. Not just in the games space, all of them.
[more at the link]
and the original interview: http://www.next-gen.biz/features/interview-phil-spencer?page=0,1
So if this fails, does the Xbox division lose all credibility and funding from the rest of MS?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 28, 2010, 01:40:04 PM
So are they just delusional or do they really think this? I think they are pretty much the only ones who predict it will be a success. The $150 pricepoint of this add-on is what will kill it IMO. Had they released it for $100 or less, I would agree that it could at least have some modest success.
If Kinect fails, who will take the blame at Microsoft? They have already said they plan to spend hundreds of millions of dollars just on marketing and advertising.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on September 28, 2010, 02:05:16 PM
When Kinect fails is it going to just kill off the Xbox for good? I've talked about how these motion controls for the 360 and PS3 should logically be like their next gen because it would be too expensive to just up the specs again. But these both are going to bomb huge. So what the hell is going to happen to the videogame industry? You figure Sony or MS will panic and jump the gun and go up another gen and it will be too expensive for people to buy and too expensive to develop games for and then where are we at?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on September 28, 2010, 03:25:57 PM
Perhaps we'll finally reach the point where not going for top visuals becomes accepted as the norm. Of course Activision and EA wouldn't like that because the current expensive graphics climate gives them an untouchable advantage over indie devs despite having near zero flexibility.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 28, 2010, 05:00:23 PM
Ian, what I think will happen is that Sony and Microsoft will make sure to include motion control from the beginning when they launch their next systems. Peripherals have a hard time being successful.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on September 28, 2010, 06:24:18 PM
Quote
Ian, what I think will happen is that Sony and Microsoft will make sure to include motion control from the beginning when they launch their next systems. Peripherals have a hard time being successful.
So would it be like the Wii where it's pretty much is the same console as before only now it has a new controller?
I think the key to failure for both ideas will not be that they are peripherals but rather that they just outright SUCK. I suppose if they vastly improve the ideas for their next console then maybe it would work. But I predict Kinect will crash and burn entirely because the concept is seriously flawed and lacks interesting games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on September 28, 2010, 06:31:21 PM
I think Kinect will be the biggest motion-camera-based black-coloured add-on in history.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: vudu on September 29, 2010, 01:22:17 PM
I think Kinect will be the biggest motion-camera-based black-coloured add-on in history.
In terms of size or sales?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 29, 2010, 09:41:02 PM
A clean room.....
Just one of the many requirements for using your Kinect. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-09-29-ms-advises-against-clutter-for-kinect (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-09-29-ms-advises-against-clutter-for-kinect)
Quote
Microsoft has warned that messy floors "with clothes all over the place" will prevent Kinect from working properly. Better have a quick tidy. "The floor plane becomes very important, so if you have a very cluttered floor with clothes all over the place and we can't get a good look at the floor - it's a great thing if people can clean that up and move things out of the way."
The company also advised against putting the sensor in "a noisy environment", using the examples "on top of your Xbox" and "on top of your subwoofer".
Another requirement for playing your Kinect...
be 6 feet from the camera... with 3 to 4 feet of free space to either side of you.
Quote
"The ideal play space starts about six feet away from the Kinect sensor. Some games will need you to move side to side quite a lot, so you'll want to know there are three-to-four feet on either side of you."
so I need a space that is about 8 to 10 feet wide and 6 feet from the TV camera.... and my room needs to be clean, and I have to be careful about what I place my camera on or next to. Got it.
So if I had an Xbox, it would not be optimal to use it in the bedroom anymore where it would most likely be, I'd also have to drag it out to the living room, which would need a slight re-arranging during playtime.
edit: Ooops.... the requirements weren't done yet.
I also have to have even lighting across the room
Quote
"To have really bright lighting in one spot and really dark lighting in another spot: as you move between the two you might actually look a bit different to the sensor, [and it will be] a little bit harder for us to keep track of you throughout the play space," said Kareem Choudhry, principal development manager on Kinect.
Alright.... so the living room is out too, unless I play during the day.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on September 29, 2010, 10:58:44 PM
I really think that they may just hold off a while longer in releasing a new system. The 360 and PS3 are both sitting pretty good and everything seems stable on their front. They will probably only release a console to react to Nintendo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on September 29, 2010, 11:08:52 PM
If those are requirements, I would have to remove all furniture from my living room to be able to play it. And I'd need more lamps.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on September 30, 2010, 12:20:23 AM
So then not all the furniture.
This news come just when I thought I'd have enough space in my dorm room. Perfect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on September 30, 2010, 12:22:50 AM
Lamps aren't furniture, they are appliances. I'd have no tables to set them on, so I guess I had better get some floor lamps.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on September 30, 2010, 12:37:25 AM
I dunno. I always thought of lamps as furniture.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on September 30, 2010, 01:27:07 AM
Can they be arranged in Animal Crossing? If yes then I say they are furniture ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 30, 2010, 11:43:13 AM
Lamps are considered furniture by stores, not appliances.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on September 30, 2010, 10:54:08 PM
Fresh baked cookies included, cold milk sold separately.
Kinect bakes cookies? What kind? Does that only work standing up as well or can I sit down for that one?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 02, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
Okay, so one of the system requirements for Kinect is an empty warehouse, because you really need that much space to both set the damn thing up and then to have enough room to do your chicken dance without knocking stuff over.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2010, 12:48:12 PM
Actually there are are few more requirements: http://www.vg247.com/2010/10/05/entire-kinect-manual-photographed-play-distances-power-details-more/
Your supposed to stand 6 feet from the sensor when you play by yourself, but what about if a friend wants to play too? now the both of you must stand 8 feet from the camera.
and if the camera is having issues seeing you (sorry black people :().... try wearing different color clothing, something that stands out from your background.
you need to be more like this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6OeNNI_FXo
and less like this guy: (http://www.filmweb.no/bilder/multimedia/archive/00098/Zach_Braff_i_Garden__98698o.jpg)
also don't forget, that if you happen to be wearing something that matches something behind you (http://www.cornellpubs.com/Newsletter%20Images/Camo%20Sofa.jpg)
Don't just take it off and throw it to the floor, because Kinect don't like messy floors.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2010, 02:04:27 PM
Ubisoft announces a new Kinect game today as well.
looks like your gonna need more room than 8 feet from the TV and 4-5 feet across on either side. Your gonna want to make sure there are no other people standing around and no lamps or breakable items anywhere near you.
This also looks really damn tiring.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on October 05, 2010, 02:58:03 PM
My oh my. What a peripheral. Somewhere in a box in your closet, a Virtual Boy is laughing itself to sleep.
Since MS is so fond of comparisons, here's one right now: (http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/120/l_1bc9ce9a7fcd40c08ce3066c1152d7ac.jpg)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 05, 2010, 03:42:47 PM
Even if the pricepoint wasn't a factor (which it is, I bet a lot of people who have some interest in Kinect will not get it because it costs $150), I bet a lot more people will not be getting it because of how much space you need for it. I don't have the space to be six feet away, or for all that space around me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on October 05, 2010, 04:48:35 PM
The more I find out about Kinect the more I am in utter shock that this a real product that will be released in stores soon.
If I was in charge of a videogame company and someone was trying to sell me on this motion sensor stuff, the second they started listing off limitations like needing six feet of space for one person and having to stand up and your clothing or SKIN COLOUR confusing the software I would have just kiboshed the whole thing and sent it back to the drawing boards.
This is entertainment. People might be willing to jump through hoops for something they need but this is just supposed to be fun. As a result it is held to very high scrutiny because why should I have to go through much hassle just to have fun? It's the easiest thing for consumers to just shrug off. This just has too many hoops. People will go through hell and back to cure their male pattern baldness. They won't do it to play a videogame.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on October 05, 2010, 05:03:12 PM
If I were buying one of the three consoles for motion controls, which would be the bst at the most reasonable price?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2010, 05:07:57 PM
Isn't watching Kinect crash and burn a form of entertainment as well? The only people who won't be entertained by Kinect turning Hindenburg are the small percentage of 360 owners who actually buy it, and of course Microsoft. But for everyone else, this is going to be a very entertaining disaster.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2010, 05:15:24 PM
I'm slowly gaining a little bit of interest in Kinect. Nowhere near enough to pay $150 for it, but I would no longer refuse one if someone offered it to me for free, as I've previously said.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 05, 2010, 05:17:39 PM
If I were buying one of the three consoles for motion controls, which would be the bst at the most reasonable price?
Wii.
Kinect is not going to be a good product. Sony Move has a closer chance of making a better impact than Kinect but I think that it won't be big enough as Wii.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 05, 2010, 05:24:16 PM
If I were buying one of the three consoles for motion controls, which would be the bst at the most reasonable price?
Wii
Don't dignify such questions with actual answers. You'll only encourage more of it's kind.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 05, 2010, 05:36:37 PM
I wonder how many of these room requirements will be printed on the Kinect box. Are Microsoft going to do the honorable thing and print all this so when a person picks it up and reads it they know if it can happen in their dwelling and consequently if it is a worthwhile purchase, or will they be a bunch of cheats and leave it all off, waiting for people to buy it first, then finding this all out the hard way.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on October 05, 2010, 05:40:09 PM
I wonder how many of these room requirements will be printed on the Kinect box. Are Microsoft going to do the honorable thing and print all this so when a person picks it up and reads it they know if it can happen in their dwelling and consequently if it is a worthwhile purchase, or will they be a bunch of cheats and leave it all off, waiting for people to buy it first, then finding this all out the hard way.
If I were buying one of the three consoles for motion controls, which would be the bst at the most reasonable price?
Wii
Don't dignify such questions with actual answers. You'll only encourage more of it's kind.
Sorry I guess whenever I see someone ask a question I have to answer it. I'll try and be not helpful as possible in the future.:P
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 05, 2010, 05:47:34 PM
I think legally they will have to print the requirements on the box, or they will end up getting a class-action lawsuit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on October 05, 2010, 06:27:55 PM
I'd imagine the requirements they've published are specifically designed to protect them from lawsuits. I'll bet it will work in less than these optimal conditions, but they padded them to be safe.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stogi on October 05, 2010, 06:39:09 PM
looks like your gonna need more room than 8 feet from the TV and 4-5 feet across on either side. Your gonna want to make sure there are no other people standing around and no lamps or breakable items anywhere near you.
This also looks really damn tiring.
Hahaha that game looks AWESOME
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on October 05, 2010, 06:51:23 PM
I think legally they will have to print the requirements on the box, or they will end up getting a class-action lawsuit.
They don't have to be on the box. Just look at the Wii; the stuff on the warning screen before each game is not featured anywhere on the box. It's in the instruction booklet, and the only warning on the box is to read the instructions before setting up and using the system. Kinect will be the same.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 05, 2010, 07:04:54 PM
If I were buying one of the three consoles for motion controls, which would be the bst at the most reasonable price?
Wii
Don't dignify such questions with actual answers. You'll only encourage more of it's kind.
Sorry I guess whenever I see someone ask a question I have to answer it. I'll try and be not helpful as possible in the future. :P: :
You aren't helping him. It was a dumb question which he already knew the answer to before he even asked. I don't know why he does that, but the best thing to do when you see posts like that is just shake your head and ignore them.
ETA: The only way his question wasn't dumb was if it was meant to be rhetorical (which I doubt it was), but even in that case it isn't supposed to be answered.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on October 05, 2010, 08:59:00 PM
I meant for that question to be between the Move and Kinect motion systems.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 06, 2010, 02:33:27 AM
I think legally they will have to print the requirements on the box, or they will end up getting a class-action lawsuit.
Would they really be liable? If someone did sue, they could simply say that all the details are available online and that they should have researched it first.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 06, 2010, 03:48:16 AM
It wouldn't be lawsuit worthy, but I'm sure it will lead to a large number of returns.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 06, 2010, 03:58:18 AM
But a return just means another opportunity to +1 your sales count without having to actually produce anymore hardware!!!
It a winning situation for MS in terms of PR sales numbers.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 06, 2010, 04:34:21 AM
Not if a bunch of articles and news clips spring up in the media (especially the mainstream media) with headlines like "Former hot holiday toy returned en mass due to faulty design".
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on October 06, 2010, 12:41:33 PM
How would that be different than any other Microsoft product?
I'm sure they'll place the absolute minimum requirements on the box.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 06, 2010, 01:21:16 PM
Not if a bunch of articles and news clips spring up in the media (especially the mainstream media) with headlines like "Former hot holiday toy returned en mass due to faulty design".
Except this isn't ever going to become a "hot holiday toy". The hype might last all of 30 minutes, which would be about the time it takes for someone to purchase it, get it home, and then become appalled. Its coming out in early November, right? I predict word of mouth and strong public outcry against it is going to seal its fate before it even makes it to the holiday season, which technically doesn't start until after Thanksgiving. It will be a dead item well before then.
But I suppose on a positive note, Microsoft does have a lot of experience with handling recalls from their RROD 360s a few years back. This same experience is going to come in very handy when they recall Kinect. It also helps Microsoft that they are a very wealthy company and won't be bankrupted by its failure, although it will hurt them.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 06, 2010, 01:25:11 PM
I might actually pick up Kinect when it's on clearance for $50. Navigating Xbox 360 menus by motion sounds interesting, and some of the games look good. Project Milo seemed like it could be cool, but there are rumors it has been canceled (officially it hasn't, just reports saying that development has been put on hold for now).
Microsoft has said they are commited though, planning to spend a few hundred million dollars on advertising.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 07, 2010, 04:50:11 PM
(WIRED)Kinect for Xbox 360: The inside story of Microsoft's secret 'Project Natal' (http://www.wired.co.uk/wired-magazine/archive/2010/11/features/the-game-changer?page=1)
I haven't read it yet, but I'm sure it's interesting. maybe I'll edit in some quotes later if someone else doesn't beat me to it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on October 07, 2010, 05:02:02 PM
Quote
A jungle drumbeat stirs the air at Jefferson and Figueroa on a balmy June Sunday evening in downtown Los Angeles
Quote
Microsoft’s Xbox team has packed the hall tonight with VIPs such as Billy Crystal, Michael Cera, Rosario Dawson and Christina Hendricks, but all have been told to wear a white polyester poncho and to enter the auditorium through what appears to be a giant TV into a living-room where actors play family members. As the hour-long show begins, these families are winched up on their sofas to remain high above the audience, cheering as eight-metre projection screens, in total longer than an American football field, flash into life.
Quote
A four-metre puppet elephant slowly carries a boy towards a hill of rocks, from which emerges a giant 3D black-and-green Xbox logo that raises him higher. Green lights suddenly shine out from the poncho shoulder pads. “Hi, Alex,” the voice booms. “Welcome home.” The boy is lifted to a 12-metre-diameter rotating steel chamber bearing a screen on which he interacts with an avatar that copies his every movement.
You're going to need of lot of explicatives to get through this article.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 07, 2010, 05:37:13 PM
Game Boat™ is de facto the first accessory for the peripheral which doesn't need any. The first product in the Play On™ line-up brings the entertainment of Kinect Adventures™ game out of the tv set, directly in your living room! Game it Real™ ! With this real-size replica of Kinect Adventures™'s awesome dinghy . Size: 150 x 150 cm. Ideal to comfortably play in 2 gamers simultaneously, still without being clumsy in the living room. Easily inflated in a few minutes through the practical pump (included). Game Boat™ can also be used in the watyr, at the sea or at the pool, by children and adults.
I wonder if this raft can actually float and be used as an actual raft.
I can't wait to see what's next.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 08, 2010, 02:07:59 PM
Easily inflated in a few minutes through the practical pump (included). Game Boat™ can also be used in the watyr, at the sea or at the pool, by children and adults.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 10, 2010, 08:31:50 AM
So basically a very smart business man decided hey we have this raft that is red and looks like a generic river raft...lets sell it as an attachment to a game...then more people will buy it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 10, 2010, 03:02:37 PM
Easily inflated in a few minutes through the practical pump (included). Game Boat™ can also be used in the watyr, at the sea or at the pool, by children and adults.
Yeah, but what is this "Watyr"? Is it something you have to purchase separately?
Yes, I'm being a smartass here, but that is a pretty unusual typo for water.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on October 10, 2010, 03:18:13 PM
It's extreme.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 12, 2010, 09:42:27 PM
Doesn't this look like so much fun (http://i40.tinypic.com/11hfn7m.gif)
Oh dear. The more I see of this, the less I can believe that someone thought this was a good idea.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 13, 2010, 06:11:18 AM
To be completely fair and honest, its possible that the shittiness of this product is entirely the fault of the 3rd party developer and not necessarily Kinect itself. I'm not saying Kinect isn't to blame, all I'm saying is that its a possibility the developer just did a crappy job on this game.
The reason I'm willing to believe it could be the developer's fault is because the Wii got more than its fair share of waggle gimmick Crapware from turd parties over the years, so seeing it happen on other motion control schemes isn't much of a stretch. It doesn't mean a decent FPS couldn't potentially be done on Kinect, but it still remains to be seen.
I think the true test will come when Microsoft creates an official Halo product that is Kinect compatible. That would be a 1st party effort of an established and proven franchise, so that would be the real litmus test as to whether it could be pulled off or not.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 13, 2010, 06:47:13 AM
Maybe I'm too much of a gamer but holding up my hand in the shape of a gun to play an FPS just seems like a terrible idea. How do you control running? At best you could play a rail shooter but running and gunning just doesn't sound like it would work the way we want it. Some game types just don't work with certain interfaces.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 13, 2010, 06:52:14 AM
Probably the best way to get something to work in Kinect is with the use of props. Remember the water raft thing earlier in the thread? Well, in an FPS situation it might work better if Kinect utilized some prop gun. I think something like that would be a lot easier for the computer to recognize than someone trying to simulate and fire a gun using only hand gestures. Not to mention that it would probably be easier on the player as well.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 13, 2010, 07:12:04 AM
I actually am ok with holding something. And you could easily map turning the camera to use the other hand...and then speed could be a movement of a leg, or even leaning forward or side to side.
Or Kinect could make a initial boxed area you were calibrated in be point zero and slight movement step left, right, forward, back could be for movement
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on October 13, 2010, 12:44:33 PM
Quote
Maybe I'm too much of a gamer but holding up my hand in the shape of a gun to play an FPS just seems like a terrible idea. How do you control running? At best you could play a rail shooter but running and gunning just doesn't sound like it would work the way we want it. Some game types just don't work with certain interfaces.
No, I think that fact that you're a gamer is why you've instantly identified the huge flaws with Kinect. You've played games, you know what is needed out of the controls and this issue is obvious to you. Kinect just reaks of an idea that was thought of, likely by non-gamers, without any real thought put into how it would work for games. Do you think MS would have introduced this if Nintendo had not found success with the Wii first? It just looks like MS needed some motion control of some sort to compete with the Wii but the idea of how it would practically applied to videogames was never really taken into consideration. If you don't know games or you just don't think about the details the idea of Kinect sounds like it theoretically would work. You do this, the game recognizes it. Good enough, right?
How do you move in an FPS? Well it's the same issue they had with that racing game they showed at E3 where you steer but have no gas or brake. It sounds like it is barely a game but you can imagine a suit in a boardroom who never actually plays games thinking that turning an imaginary wheel to steer a car sounds fun so they assign someone to do it without thinking of any of the details or whether or not it will actually work. All that matters is getting something out there to match Nintendo. It's a rushed copycat idea. If MS was pioneering motion control they never would have gone with this because they would have had to put more thought into it and it would have revealed itself to be insufficient for videogames.
Gamers were probably never involved with Kinect and that's why it's a stupid idea that is going to fail.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 13, 2010, 02:53:18 PM
Kinect Sells Out at UK Retailers (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/112/1127702p1.html)
But what wasn't said is how many units was MS providing for there to be a sellout? Doesn't mean much if the total unit count was 2-3 per store. or even 10k for the entire country.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Shorty McNostril on October 13, 2010, 04:42:56 PM
This shows why Nintendo and apparently Sony after them both knocked it back.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 13, 2010, 05:15:17 PM
Or Kinect could make a initial boxed area you were calibrated in be point zero and slight movement step left, right, forward, back could be for movement
That would basically transform the player into a giant analog stick. I dunno how well that would work, but it would be interesting to see it be attempted and see how people would react to it.
Of course, some gamers might prefer to just use an analog stick than be used as one themselves...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 13, 2010, 05:19:23 PM
Or Kinect could make a initial boxed area you were calibrated in be point zero and slight movement step left, right, forward, back could be for movement
That would basically transform the player into a giant analog stick. I dunno how well that would work, but it would be interesting to see it be attempted and see how people would react to it.
Of course, some gamers might prefer to just use an analog stick than be used as one themselves...
I can sorta picture trying that. Though it may not work like it sounds in my head.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 14, 2010, 08:52:03 PM
My idea was the only way I could figure out how to do a FPS without any additional controllers.
Ian you are right. There are certain things games need. Even Nintendo understood this releasing the Nintendo DS. At first they wanted a system with NO buttons and D-Pad...and they realized it was really a poor idea for gaming. Which is why no matter how good the Ipod touch is...it will always be a second rate gaming machine, because the touch screen is not a good source for more complicated controls and advanced games.
Microsoft looked at the market and saw casuals playing. They wanted to capture that market, and actually looked at the same data Nintendo did. People get confounded by the controller...and want something more simple. Nintendo delivered with the Wii. The basic Wii Remote is very simple, but even the Nunchuk is easy to understand. Microsoft decided a No button approach might be even better...and then they were not blatantly copying Nintendo; which was important to them, because they needed their product to stand out from Nintendo's Wii and the PS Move which Microsoft could predict would be coming. Three similar motion controlled systems could not have been supported by consumers in the market...and Nintendo already had the lead.
Unfortunately, everything Microsoft is doing is just poorly designed. The technology just isn't there, and also it sounds cool and is probably cool to demo, a full rich experience just doesn't sound feasible. Though perhaps that will be figured out in the future...I mean Microsoft probably has another year or 2 with the Xbox 360 to try and make Kinect work.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 18, 2010, 12:59:53 PM
Half a BILLION $$$ on Kinect Advertising to come!!! http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/microsoft_move_3gVmAyryJuD6px1dV7LeDP?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME= (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/microsoft_move_3gVmAyryJuD6px1dV7LeDP?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=)
Quote
Microsoft is gearing up for a massive marketing push to launch Kinect -- a controller-free Wii-killer for the Xbox -- and blow away the competition come Christmas.
Backed by a half-billion-dollar budget, the tech giant is rolling out a major movie-style marketing blitz aimed at driving its motion-sensing device to the top of holiday wish lists. Like a much anticipated summer blockbuster, Kinect will appear on everything from soda cans to cereal boxes and will span television, magazines and the Internet.
The company began planning the launch 18 months ago with the help of Hollywood producer Steven Spielberg.
"Kinect is the largest, most integrated marketing initiative in Xbox history, bigger than its launch," said Robert Matthews, general manager of global marketing communications for Xbox. "We are going to be spending millions to launch this globally."
Microsoft launched Xbox in July 2000 with a $500 million marketing campaign, but part of that went to subsidies to make the hardware more affordable.
This time around Microsoft has struck a promotional partnership with Burger King. Four million cans of Pepsi and Diet Pepsi will plug Kinect, along with 60 million cereal and snack boxes from Kellogg's.
Meanwhile, some 7,000 retailers will stay open past midnight on Nov. 4 -- the day Kinect goes on sale -- to stimulate demand.
This thing better not bomb because some heads will roll.... but honestly, from what I've seen of Kinect, outside of Dance Central(Kinect's Killer App), if this thing doesn't fail, the devil will have lots of new souls to collect (I've been watching far too much Supernatural).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on October 18, 2010, 01:22:07 PM
Great now they'll never break even.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 18, 2010, 01:58:47 PM
Launch Line-Up for Kinect
Quote
Kinect Adventures (Good Science Studio/Microsoft Game Studios) included with every Kinect sensor
Kinectimals (Frontier Developments Ltd./Microsoft Game Studios) $49.99 ERP (US)/$59.99 ERP (US) limited collector's edition. Limited collector's editions of the "Kinectimals" game packaged with a 7" plush toy that unlocks a new animal and toy in the game will be available at select retailers.
Game Party: In Motion (Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment) $39.99 ERP (US)
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part 1 The Videogame (Electronic Arts/EA Bright Light), 49.99 ERP (US)
Your Shape: Fitness Evolved (Ubisoft), $49.99 ERP (US)
Dance Central (MTV Games/Harmonix), $49.99 ERP (US)
The Biggest Loser Ultimate Workout (THQ), $49.99 ERP (US)
DanceMasters (Konami), $49.99 ERP (US)
EA Sports Active 2 (EA SPORTS), $99.95 ERP (US) (Includes Heart Rate Monitor)
Zumba Fitness (Majesco), $49.99 ERP (US)
Kinect Sports (Rare/Microsoft Game Studios) $49.99 ERP (US)
MotionSports (Ubisoft), $49.99 ERP (US)
Deca Sports Freedom (Hudson Entertainment)
Kinect Joy Ride (Big Park/Microsoft Game Studios), $49.99 ERP (US)
Adrenalin Misfits (Konami), $49.99 ERP (US)
Fighters Uncaged (Ubisoft), $49.99 ERP (US)
Sonic Free Riders ($49.95)
Lots of Dancing & Sport/Workout games. MS better talk to Wu Tang Financial and learn to Diversify (http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=wu-tang-financial&videoId=11887)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on October 18, 2010, 05:28:59 PM
Over at Penny Arcade, Tycho's news post suggests an interesting idea about Kinect. He notes that the Wii is largely associated with third party shovelware but at launch it had titles like Zelda that would appeal to the core gamers. The Kinect launch has nothing of the sort. But the Wii's whole thing was the controller so it had to appeal to a wide audience, core gamer and non-gamer alike. Kinect doesn't have to. The Xbox 360 is already successful with core gamers and has games that appeal to that group and will continue to have such games. He questions if it is a bad thing if Kinect is strictly a casual non-gamer thing.
When you think about it there is somewhat of a seperation on the Wii. I see motion control as an annoying nuisance. I already mentally seperate the core from the casual and usually the usage of the controller is a deciding factor. If the Wii was like the other consoles in that the motion controller was a seperate thing I think most of the games I would consider as designed for the more traditional gaming audience would not use the remote. The games that REALLY need it are usually stuff like Wii Sports. Zelda or Mario Galaxy do not need it. Metroid Prime 3 is a rare example of a core game that would.
So on the Xbox 360 the seperation is just very literal. Kinect is for casuals, the "normal" Xbox 360 is not. That's all fine and good in theory expect that I don't see casuals buying Kinect. The focus on casual gaming from both Sony and MS is nuts because the Wii already has that market down cold and is MUCH cheaper. I don't see why anyone is going to buy Kinect when Nintendo almost certainly makes BETTER casual titles and with the Wii I only have to buy ONE product for LESS MONEY and the whole thing works.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 19, 2010, 06:11:57 PM
MS is attempting to Disconnect all who try to Diss Kinect No Reviews before launch and no criticism of advertising either... http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/10/18/xbox-360-microsofts-kinect-review-embargo-is-a-red-flag/ (http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/10/18/xbox-360-microsofts-kinect-review-embargo-is-a-red-flag/)
Quote
Kinect is Microsoft’s biggest push for the Xbox gaming division to date. The Xbox division could sink or swim depending on the success of the device. However, in an unusual move the company has been hesitant to send out the device for review.
Many journalists in the gaming industry have complained about Microsoft’s hesitation to send the Kinect and any of its software offerings for review. This is actually something that has been actively talked about on game press forums.
In addition the publisher has also placed an embargo on posting any sort of review for the device prior to launch. Microsoft’s internal anti piracy investigation group has also issued a take-down notice to Destructoid (http://gamer.blorge.com/2010/10/07/destructoid-served-with-take-down-notice-from-microsoft-over-kinect/), who incidentally made fun of the Kinect’s new commercials.
The fact that Microsoft is being so sensitive about any sort of criticism towards the device is a major concern. Just like how film studios won’t hold a pre-screening for movies that is expected to tank, the video game industry operates exactly the same way.
But you think, "Why would MS do this? they would never do this...." Well, just replace Vista with Kinect when you watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLfEVGwjrA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLfEVGwjrA) and you get the idea of whats being implied here.
edit: And if you follow the link to the Destructoid take down notice story, you can see the take down notice from MS where they refer to Kinect as Kinetic, the Sony Eye-Toy game. http://gamer.blorge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/image14.png (http://gamer.blorge.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/image14.png)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 19, 2010, 06:44:05 PM
With all that huge amount of money behind it this thing is either going to be a spectacular success or a spectacular failure. The half billion in advertising really raises the stakes. It does greatly increase its chance of success, but at the same time it adds even more losses to the xbox division that may or may not ever be recovered. Apparently being profitable isn't something that's on their agenda just yet. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where this goes.... but with a half billion dollars of advertising behind it its going to be something we're going to be hearing about on all forms of media CONSTANTLY. Its not going to be like other failed products like the Virtual Boy where it was launched with a whimper and largely went unnoticed. Kinect is going to be something everyone is aware of, Microsoft is going to make damn sure of that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on October 23, 2010, 09:51:10 AM
And Microsoft will buy opinions and exposure. Microsoft is going to buy off people that are cool, but don't really know games to sell their machine...where it will grow in popularity with the non-gamers which Microsoft wants to sell...while the true gamers will not touch the device with a 10 foot pole.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on October 24, 2010, 02:14:04 AM
It'll live and die by the software, not the hardware and the software is just a bunch of uninspired Wii ripoffs.
Non-gamers aren't stupid, they know a cheap knockoff when they see one.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stogi on October 24, 2010, 11:11:26 PM
Is that why Deca Sports has been doing so well?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Luigi Dude on October 25, 2010, 12:20:21 AM
It'll live and die by the software, not the hardware and the software is just a bunch of uninspired Wii ripoffs.
Non-gamers aren't stupid, they know a cheap knockoff when they see one.
Yep, this is what Microsoft doesn't seem to get. The Wii entire success was because of Nintendo and their own software. Just because low priced third party shovelware like Carnival Games and Just Dance manage to sell 3-4 million copies doesn't mean sh!t when Nintendo's own full price games like Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit sell over 16-20+ million copies. Not to mention a lot of the people who bought Carnival Games and Just Dance bought the Wii because of games like Wii Sports, Mario Kart Wii and Wii Fit. It's was Nintendo's own software that made them buy the system while the third party imitations were bought after they owned the system.
Microsoft has nothing that's going to come close to rivaling Wii Sports Resort and Wii Fit in quality, which is going to hurt Kinects word of mouth for the long term. The real reason the Wii became the huge hit it did is because Nintendo provided quality software that the audience loved and as a result the system had great word of mouth. Microsofts 500 million marketing campaign might give Kinect a good launch this fall, but if the quality software isn't there, then it's going to have terrible legs in the long run.
Deca Sports has sold over 2 million copies worldwide vs Wii Sports which sold somewhere over 60 million copies. Of course Wii Sports was a pack in with Wii's in America and Europe, but it's sequel, Wii Sports Resort sold over 16 million copies as a full price stand alone game before it eventually became bundled with the system. This pretty much confirms what KDR_11k said by how non-gamers aren't stupid since they knew that the Wii Sports series from Nintendo is a quality series and as a result it's sequel sold lightyears better then any of it's ripoffs.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stogi on October 25, 2010, 01:05:51 AM
Well how do you know 16 million Nintendo fans didn't buy it?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 25, 2010, 07:25:01 PM
This is sooo good. Who doesn't want this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq--Ve70t0o
^Kinect launch on HSN with live demonstrations
"I'm gonna jump back in and 2 people will appear in the raft!!..." only one person is in the raft... they both jump and the race is over there is still only one person in the raft L.O.L.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on October 25, 2010, 07:38:07 PM
With Kinect, Microsoft Aims for a Game Changer (http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/111114/with-kinect-microsoft-aims-for-a-game-changert?mod=family-love_money)
Quote
A slim, 32-year-old psychologist, he spends his days behind a one-way mirror at Microsoft's video games research center here, watching people play the company's Xbox systems. He looks for smiles,...When a game is good, it elicits all the above and gets a "fun score" high enough for Microsoft to consider selling it.
How can these people see what they're typing when their lips are glued to Microsoft's butt?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 26, 2010, 04:35:42 AM
This is sooo good. Who doesn't want this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq--Ve70t0o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq--Ve70t0o)
^Kinect launch on HSN with live demonstrations
"I'm gonna jump back in and 2 people will appear in the raft!!..." only one person is in the raft... they both jump and the race is over there is still only one person in the raft L.O.L.
She mentions the wonders of XBox Live but fails to mention the fact that it costs money every month.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 26, 2010, 11:24:07 AM
This is sooo good. Who doesn't want this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq--Ve70t0o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq--Ve70t0o)
^Kinect launch on HSN with live demonstrations
"I'm gonna jump back in and 2 people will appear in the raft!!..." only one person is in the raft... they both jump and the race is over there is still only one person in the raft L.O.L.
She mentions the wonders of XBox Live but fails to mention the fact that it costs money every month.
she also mentions that" it comes with a controller.... but you won't need it." and GameFly will let you download games!!
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Caliban on October 26, 2010, 01:01:46 PM
And they also say that they are giving 30 days worth of the Gold membership... which already comes out of the box anyway. At least they're adding in the HDMI cable which Microsoft no longer gives.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on October 27, 2010, 10:39:25 AM
And they also say that they are giving 30 days worth of the Gold membership... which already comes out of the box anyway. At least they're adding in the HDMI cable which Microsoft no longer gives.
They do the same thing for Wii, mentioning Wii Sports as one of the games they are including in the bundle even though every Wii comes with it anyways.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on October 27, 2010, 06:43:29 PM
Do they count Wii Sports as five games like eBay does?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 28, 2010, 11:20:12 AM
Amazon U.S. and Best Buy's online site are no longer taking pre-orders for Kinect, the motion-controlled game sensor for the Xbox 360 that launches November 4th.
A quick check of Amazon's U.S. product page for Kinect bundled with one game reveals that preorders are now available only through affiliates. You can still pre-order bundles with a new Xbox 360, however. The Kinect page on Best Buy simply says "Coming Soon." GameStop and Wal-Mart are still taking orders.
The pre-order sellouts follow similar reports from the U.K. earlier this month, and suggest that Microsoft has a hit on its hands. Or at least that there are a lot of Xbox 360 users out there who want to extend the lifecycle of the console for another couple of years with the new gadget.
sorta pointless without launch/pre-order numbers once again, but atleast we know that whatever is being supplied being sold.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on October 28, 2010, 05:36:11 PM
At least its selling. But, that doesn't mean there aren't going to be thousands (millions?) of very pissed off Kinect purchasers once they take it home and start to "enjoy" the Kinect(TM) experience.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on October 29, 2010, 04:34:46 AM
I was talking with a former co-worker today and they were asking me about Kinect. I tried not to let my fanboyism taint the conversation but I did warn her that the camera has very specific requirements like a clean open room and such. I also mentioned the worry about Microsoft pouring billions into advertising while barring people from reviewing the device. I also told her he to Google Red Ring of Death. I assured her Microsoft had fixed the RRoD but advised her to perhaps wait and see before investing to see if there are any similarly major defects in the Kinect before buying. I also encouraged her to try it before she bought it since demos I saw on TV didn't seem to work right. She said the biggest appeal was the lack of a controller (big surprise there).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 03, 2010, 10:39:20 PM
money may not buy love but it sure buys confidence
Microsoft: We are going to sell 5 million Kinects this year http://thenextweb.com/microsoft/2010/11/03/microsoft-we-are-going-to-sell-5-million-kinects-this-year/
Quote
Microsoft has raised its sales predictions for the Kinect in 2010 to 5 million units from a previous guess of 3 million. [...] This update on forecasts comes just minutes after the company announced a sweeping partnership with the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, which will put the Kinect in 4,000 buildings frequented by the target demographic of the Kinect.
According to Microsoft’s Don Mattrick, if the company meets its 5 million unit forecast, that would make Kinect the ‘biggest Xbox product launch ever in terms of sales.’
As we have noted before, the Kinect goes on sale tomorrow in the US.
from 3 mill up to 5 mill the day before release.... Looks like somebody is hoping to do some MAJOR bragging around the time NPD comes out next month.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on November 03, 2010, 11:11:55 PM
I am curious to see how Nintendo will react to whatever success that Move and Kinect have in the nest six months. I am hoping that both systems are successful not becaues I want to see Nintendo get beat, but I do hope that it forces Nintendo's hand in regards to the Wii successor. I will be watching Kinect to see how the controller free gameplay works out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 04, 2010, 12:40:42 PM
I think Kinect is too overpriced to be anything more than niche, no way do I see them selling 5 million (unless they are counting the Kinect bundles plus all these Kinects they are giving away in contests like the Burger King one and this Boys & Girls Club giveaway). PlayStation Move might be a little better since it is far cheaper, but I see it being like EyeToy was and only being successful in Europe and mediocre in other regions. I don't see Nintendo being worried at all about these clones.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 04, 2010, 12:54:23 PM
Besides, Move promises to improve first person shooters which are a very common genre on these consoles. Kinect cannot boast anything of that sort.
Also, again, the official Kinect libraries will only support avatars, any game wanting to use differently looking characters must reimplement those algorithms so the quality of the detection will vary. Ubisoft already fucked it up (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-04-fighters-uncaged-review).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Peachylala on November 04, 2010, 01:21:07 PM
That review made me laugh.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 04, 2010, 02:08:03 PM
MS: You are the controller.... but sometimes the controller needs a controller too
"Hybrid" Kinect/Controller Games in Development[ http://www.1up.com/news/hybrid-kinect-controller-games-development
Quote
"We love controller-free games, we love Kinect experiences and we'll continue to grow our set of those as well. What we haven't really talked about, but exist, are hybrid games," Kipmen explained to GamesIndustry.biz. "Games that are using the controller, which we know and love, and pieces, if not all, of the Kinect experiences to again make those experiences more immersive, more fun and more emotionally connected." [...] "This is where I look at the world, and I know it's easier to look at the world and talk about 'or,' but I look at the world and I talk about 'and,'" Kipmen continued. "It's about how we take all of these things and fuse all of them together to create unique experiences...It doesn't always mean using the same colors, the same paintbrushes -- the stories you tell are about using the appropriate combinations of all of the colors and brushes to create something meaningful."
Headtracking, voice recognition and...... close quarters combat?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: oohhboy on November 04, 2010, 02:15:22 PM
Looks like Kinetic is good for something after all. So many classic references.
Quote
Then it's time to view that six man-strong character roster. All the fighters look like extras from a scene in a Police Academy film where one of the dislikable characters ends up in a gay bar. Think leather waistcoats, bare chests and big beards, and characters with names like Ratface and Rider. Good grief.
It gets a 2/10, so I went and looked up their scoring info.
Quote
10/10 - Phenomenal 9/10 - Excellent 8/10 - Very good 7/10 - Good 6/10 - Above average 5/10 - Average 4/10 - Below average 3/10 - Bad 2/10 - Atrocious 1/10 - Bloody atrocious
I really want to know how it didn't get a 1/10. I then checked to see what their review history, only to be disappointed not to find anything scored lower than a 2/10. I can only conclude that a 1/10 must be very special seeing even NWR has a single one. Loneliest indeed.
I look forward to the tsunami of mocking reviews of Kinect to smash in.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 04, 2010, 02:34:24 PM
If Kinect is really that awful (and all signs seem to be pointing that it is), then I don't see how MS's sales projection of 5 million units this year is going to be met. I can see the initial preorders selling out, but if its as terrible as the reviews say then its going to only take a day or two before the **** hits the fan and everyone all over the world is going to know how much this thing really stinks.
You can invest all the money in the world in advertising something, but that will only get you so far. Word of mouth is something MS won't be able to control, no matter how much money they have.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 04, 2010, 03:21:36 PM
As the reviews say? I'm gonna assume that alot of these reviews are NOT bought with advertising money and that they are NOT rated the way they are just because of new gadget hype. But here are the reviews so far:
Kotaku: Kinect Adventures (http://kotaku.com/5679412/review-kinect-adventures?skyline=true&s=i) Dance Central (http://kotaku.com/5680719/review-dance-central?skyline=true&s=i) Kinectimals (http://kotaku.com/5680503/review-kinectimals?skyline=true&s=i) Kinect Sports (http://kotaku.com/5679411/review-kinect-sports) Kinect (http://kotaku.com/5680501/review-kinect?skyline=true&s=i) Your Shape: Fitness Evolved (http://kotaku.com/5680504/)
Engadget hardware review: http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-xbox-360-review/ (http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/04/kinect-for-xbox-360-review/) The Good: Powerful technology Voice commands really work Yoga, dance games show real potential
The Bad: Requires lots of room space Launch lineup could be better Hand gesture UI can be very slow
6/10
Kinect isn't made out to be as bad as it has sounded. It surely isn't the second coming of motion controls, but it certainly looks like something the casuals could latch onto.... if the complete package wasn't so damn expensive.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 04, 2010, 05:00:27 PM
I look at Kinect and all these red flags pop up about accuracy and usability. But as I read more into it I wonder if this will even matter. I had the same concerns with the Wii. Nintendo was promoting Wii Sports and I was thinking about how you could move in tennis or field in baseball. Those seemed like essential elements to me and I could not see how you do it with the Wii remote. Well in the end Nintendo did not include those elements so I was more or less right about not being able to do those with the remote. And I found Wii Sports fun for what it was but felt it lost its novelty quickly due to the lack of depth.
But this didn't matter. Wii Sports and the Wii were a huge success. Most people didn't think like I did. They didn't care about no fielding or no moving and it did not hurt their gameplay experience like it did mine.
I look at Kinect and I'm thinking that it is even more limiting then the Wii remote. How the hell do you move? Is every game going to be on-rails? The accuracy also sounds like a complete nightmare. But there may very well be a huge amount of people, like with the Wii, that don't give a ****. They're cool with playing games that in my mind lack depth because they are prohibited by too many limitations. We saw the car game where you don't even have a gas and brake, you just steer. I'm thinking it's the stupidest joke of a game imaginable. But not everyone thinks like me. I'm thinking it COULD be a success. I cannot make predictions based on my perceptions of quality. I see politicians get elected all the time that I cannot comprehend how anyone would vote for. I see products and businesses do gangbuster business despite the fact that I cannot see how any rational person would ever enjoy the product. People fall for obvious cons and make incredibly stupid self-harming decisions all the time. And I also see good products fail all the time.
The Kinect looks like horseshit and I wouldn't buy it and I can't imagine any of my family or friends buying it either. That may very well be completely irrelevant. In a world where Let's Dance is a huge success why can't Dance Central, which sounds superior in every way, sell Kinects?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: oohhboy on November 04, 2010, 05:21:59 PM
Having read a good sampling of the reviews, there a fair bit of disconnect between the content of a review and score. There are a lot of 5-7/10 "Passes" and a lot of the higher scored reviews are surprisingly thin on real details. There is a lack of analysis going on. Some are positively schizophrenic with half the review loaded with hidden contempt, and the other half filled with "ehh it's all good".
However, a couple of things can be taken away from this, Kinect can never be the primary controller like the Wiimote is. 2, it's near worthless for the hardcore gaming.
I read some of the comments and I laughed each time someone mentioned minority report. They are so enthused by Kinect, it's hard not to call them a plant.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on November 04, 2010, 05:33:20 PM
I look at Kinect and all these red flags pop up about accuracy and usability. But as I read more into it I wonder if this will even matter. I had the same concerns with the Wii. Nintendo was promoting Wii Sports and I was thinking about how you could move in tennis or field in baseball. Those seemed like essential elements to me and I could not see how you do it with the Wii remote. Well in the end Nintendo did not include those elements so I was more or less right about not being able to do those with the remote. And I found Wii Sports fun for what it was but felt it lost its novelty quickly due to the lack of depth.
But this didn't matter. Wii Sports and the Wii were a huge success. Most people didn't think like I did. They didn't care about no fielding or no moving and it did not hurt their gameplay experience like it did mine.
I look at Kinect and I'm thinking that it is even more limiting then the Wii remote. How the hell do you move? Is every game going to be on-rails? The accuracy also sounds like a complete nightmare. But there may very well be a huge amount of people, like with the Wii, that don't give a ****. They're cool with playing games that in my mind lack depth because they are prohibited by too many limitations. We saw the car game where you don't even have a gas and brake, you just steer. I'm thinking it's the stupidest joke of a game imaginable. But not everyone thinks like me. I'm thinking it COULD be a success. I cannot make predictions based on my perceptions of quality. I see politicians get elected all the time that I cannot comprehend how anyone would vote for. I see products and businesses do gangbuster business despite the fact that I cannot see how any rational person would ever enjoy the product. People fall for obvious cons and make incredibly stupid self-harming decisions all the time. And I also see good products fail all the time.
The Kinect looks like horseshit and I wouldn't buy it and I can't imagine any of my family or friends buying it either. That may very well be completely irrelevant. In a world where Let's Dance is a huge success why can't Dance Central, which sounds superior in every way, sell Kinects?
I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception. Therefore it seems as if people will have a hard time dropping the controller for hands free gaming, or atleast for now. I mean the same thing goes for digital download for games, some people just like having the physical product in their hands and controllers are just the same.
Move, on the other hand, is just a quick imitation of what the Wii has done already in the past few years. If this were 2007 or 2008 then I would be worried about what Move and Kinect and were going to do to the Wii.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 04, 2010, 06:47:34 PM
Quote
I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception.
But I also figured that would affect the Wii and it didn't. I figured that over console generations the basic controller design had evolved into a de facto standard and that Nintendo was ditching too many buttons and functionality with the remote. The new design would be incompatible with many older games which I figured would be a big issue. You can't just throw away stuff that devs and gamers have grown to expect to be there and not have some compatibility issues.
But again it did not matter. The target audience did not care. So when I go on other forums and see guys talking about how their wife wants to get Kinect I'm wondering if I really can make a fair prediction on its success. MS is likely not even trying to sell it to me or anyone else who likes the types of games I do so my reasons for declaring Kinect to be a stupid joke might not matter. Hey these types of games can't be made for it. For the casual market they're aiming for the response might be "so what?" If it's just shallow on-rails games based on dancing and virtual pets that might be all the target demo even wants. And if so it could be a huge success without core gamers even looking twice at it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on November 04, 2010, 07:46:09 PM
I do not see Kinect gaining too much ground simply because the Kinect is trying to abandon the controller and the controller has been ingrained into consoles since their inception.
But I also figured that would affect the Wii and it didn't. I figured that over console generations the basic controller design had evolved into a de facto standard and that Nintendo was ditching too many buttons and functionality with the remote. The new design would be incompatible with many older games which I figured would be a big issue. You can't just throw away stuff that devs and gamers have grown to expect to be there and not have some compatibility issues.
But again it did not matter. The target audience did not care. So when I go on other forums and see guys talking about how their wife wants to get Kinect I'm wondering if I really can make a fair prediction on its success. MS is likely not even trying to sell it to me or anyone else who likes the types of games I do so my reasons for declaring Kinect to be a stupid joke might not matter. Hey these types of games can't be made for it. For the casual market they're aiming for the response might be "so what?" If it's just shallow on-rails games based on dancing and virtual pets that might be all the target demo even wants. And if so it could be a huge success without core gamers even looking twice at it.
Sony realized that Nintendo was beating them with the Wii's motion controls and so they decided to imitate Nintendo by creating the Move. The real reason why the Move controller exsists is Sony wants to attract the Wii loyalists to their system with HD graphics and motion controls. This not the case with Microsoft, however, because they have not been hurting too much sales wise. This is why Kinect is so radically different to the Wii. Overall, Microsoft and Sony realize that Nintendo has a golden Goose with the Wii and they want their own golden goose, or chicken. :P:
Which of the two new motion controls will bring out the Wii 2? I would wager Sony's Move mainly because of the similaritiies between the two systems and HD graphics. This is why the Wii 2 will have to HD graphics to keep Move off balance. Let's continue this disscussion in my thread "Wii Successor and Glasses Free 3D."
When I compared Kinect removing the controller to digital download media, I forgot to mention that perhaps Kinect is walking the same path as the PSPGo. Both systems are revolutionary, but suffered because the market was not ready for it offered. I personally do not see hand held controllers going away anytime soon.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 05, 2010, 03:38:28 AM
A look at Kinect through some IR goggles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nRKU0nFxA
sending out a million points of reference.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 05, 2010, 04:26:20 AM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 05, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
I want to know if these reviews were played with optimal perfect conditions. If so, then it will never be a perfect review. Just like Wii reviews need to be realistic. However, I have a feeling Kinect is probably being played in perfect little areas with perfect conditions...and yeah these first reviews are of course going to get new platform first game release buffer scores, but even with those scores everything is just average...and NOTHING is a home run...and definitely not a grand slam. poor microsoft...I think they are pretty screwed. This isn't like the Wii which was affordable for the hype. This is buy an Xbox and a Kinect. And the hardcore gamer is going to wait until that must buy game for the device before buying it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 05, 2010, 02:46:04 PM
A lot of gamers live in small apartments with piles of cluttered junk everywhere. I'm sure their Kinect experience will be very different than that of some well paid game reviewer who is going to have a large clean area to work with.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on November 05, 2010, 03:04:17 PM
So we own all 3 setups now.
WiiM+, Move, Kinect. Initial impressions of Kinect with Kinect Sports is that there is a lot of noticeable delay, quality of play decreases with 2 player, it is not accurate enough to do quality throws in the Javelin and Discus events. In Table Tennis the game is no damn forgiving you'll never miss a shot. Navigating is slow and annoying, which is why they made Table Tennis so forgiving, cause its the same gameplay basically.
I'm probably gonna say this: WiiM+ has the best pointer controls as long it doesn't go off screen. Move has the deepest sports game, which I like. Kinect is even more casual than Wii at this point (due to accuracy) with this library. Maybe those hybrid games will help, but I doubt it.
When it comes down to Move vs WiiM+, unsure, the quality of the motion controls seems about the same. Offscreen pointer feedback is better on the Move, its just that the delay is bad on Move.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 05, 2010, 03:10:17 PM
I think 'well paid' game reviewers are few and far between.
Yes, if you have less than 6 feet of room to work with, you should not bother with Kinect. If you do not have a steady floor (some old houses can be rickety) you should not get Kinect. If you do not have a ceiling light or other fairly decent lighting in your gaming room, you should not buy it. Same with low ceilings or things hanging low from the ceiling.
Right now, if you don't have kids, I wouldn't bother getting it either. I'm sure some title down the line will be entertaining for the older crowd, but so far the Kinect titles definately skew younger. So many freakin instructions and reminders.... just shut up and let us play.
If you do make the jump, be prepared to be sore. You move way more than with the Wii, sometimes you have to be really quick about it too.
DAaMan, you'll have to post an Adventure photo sometime...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 05, 2010, 03:26:58 PM
When it comes down to Move vs WiiM+, unsure, the quality of the motion controls seems about the same. Offscreen pointer feedback is better on the Move, its just that the delay is bad on Move.
So you would probably rate them in the order that you listed them at this point? WiiM+ > Move >> Kinect
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on November 05, 2010, 03:41:01 PM
Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.
The move is a nice piece of hardware.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 05, 2010, 03:52:59 PM
I think a significant part of that half billion in advertising bought plants for message boards and stuff but I don't think game reviewers can be bought over this considering how closely gamers will be looking at it and satisfying the audience is fairly important.
A lot of gamers live in small apartments with piles of cluttered junk everywhere. I'm sure their Kinect experience will be very different than that of some well paid game reviewer who is going to have a large clean area to work with.
Reviewers don't have spaces like that either. Eurogamer described how they had to bring the thing into their homes and pretty much shove all their living room furniture aside to make room for it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 05, 2010, 04:10:35 PM
Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.
The move is a nice piece of hardware.
I actually edited out that list before I submitted. It looked like this originally WiiM+ >= Move >> Kinect
I guess that would be more accurate? But are we talking about the usability of the hardware or the user experience with the software? I haven't used either Move or Kinect, but I have been very vocal about how Move seems like the best overall tech out of the 3 since it sorta runs a middle ground between the 2. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
If the Wiimote 2.0 could just put a PSeye/Kinect like camera in the sensor bar and then some IR lights in the remote itself(around the top+ bottom edges), it would be one upping Sony at copy Nintendo's own ideas by copying Sony's but doing it even better.
my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.
Maybe they will come out with Kinect stilts for the vertically challenged.
Also it looks like you don't want to play this with the ceiling fan on... (speaking from experience since I put a guitar hero guitar into a ceiling fan once).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 05, 2010, 05:22:38 PM
You have to be 3 ft 2in high (my 2 year old isn't 3' yet).
And you can't just walk into a session if you aren't probably at least 5 ft high. There is a process of creating a Kinect ID. Unless you go through this, the system tries to fit you into a generic body, which happens to be an adult. If you are short, then the avatar will be shown with bent knees in order to accomadate the difference. Funny enough, if you are short and have an ID, your avatar is still adult height but without the bent knees. That deserves an O_o
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 05, 2010, 05:47:24 PM
I don't think video games in general are intended for kids under about 6 years anyway, so that height requirement is pretty minimal. But, there are some adults with Dwarfism that are under that height, so that requirement might piss them off...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 05, 2010, 05:51:58 PM
Quote
My wife never looks amused... and my girl wants to play, but she's too short. So she was upset about that.
Until you mentioned your 2 year old I totally misread that. I figure your wife and your "girl" were the same person. I thought you were saying that she never looks amused but with THIS she wants to play but can't because she's too short. I was thinking it was kind of funny that the one time she was excited about doing something, she can't participate. Then I thought about how restrictive Kinect is if a grown woman can't play. Then I thought about how short your wife must be, like if you married a midget or something. :)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Mop it up on November 05, 2010, 06:02:19 PM
But, there are some adults with Dwarfism that are under that height, so that requirement might piss them off...
Any adult who isn't even 3ft, 2in is going to have serious physical problems anyway, and probably wouldn't be able to play a Kinect game even if it could read their movement.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: DAaaMan64 on November 05, 2010, 10:23:30 PM
Ha well I don't know. Because I like Sports Champions depth of game play better than WSR's variety, I'm not sure. Honestly, I'm going to say yeah because the pointer controls on Wii are so much less delayed. Its so close though that it doesn't really matter.
The move is a nice piece of hardware.
I actually edited out that list before I submitted. It looked like this originally WiiM+ >= Move >> Kinect
I guess that would be more accurate? But are we talking about the usability of the hardware or the user experience with the software? I haven't used either Move or Kinect, but I have been very vocal about how Move seems like the best overall tech out of the 3 since it sorta runs a middle ground between the 2. It's not perfect, but it's a step in the right direction.
If the Wiimote 2.0 could just put a PSeye/Kinect like camera in the sensor bar and then some IR lights in the remote itself(around the top+ bottom edges), it would be one upping Sony at copy Nintendo's own ideas by copying Sony's but doing it even better.
But this is a Kinect thread so....
Yes that is an accurate representation.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 08, 2010, 01:31:46 PM
Kinect has been Hacked http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-pc-blog-entry (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-pc-blog-entry)
Quote
Gizmodo reported over the weekend that Kinect for Xbox 360 has been hacked, or rather reverse-engineered, with the motion-sensing hardware operating on an ordinary PC.
Two videos, uploaded to YouTube by NUIGroup admin AlexP, show the compromised motion sensor in action, demonstrating the progress made in the few days since Kinect arrived at US retail. While some may might consider this is an elaborate fake, AlexP is something of a renowned reverse-engineer, having produced open source drivers for PlayStation Eye, so the chances are this is very much the real deal.
Alex's first video demonstrates how the Kinect motor is controlled via PC while a second reveals the RGB and depth camera feeds running on PC. The latter video is especially intriguing as, according to Alex, the depth feed can be captured at 640x480 - just like the PrimeSense reference camera from which Kinect is adapted - while the official Kinect spec lists depth resolution at a quarter of that - 320x240.
The popular conception is that Kinect has been cut down in several ways from the original PrimeSense tech, and enhanced in others (the multi-array mic, for example). However, iFixit's brilliant teardown of the sensor reveals that the "brain" of Kinect - the PrimeSense processor - has indeed made its way through into the final shipping product.
source with video: http://gizmodo.com/5683744/was-microsoft-kinect-hacked-already (http://gizmodo.com/5683744/was-microsoft-kinect-hacked-already)
Looks like Kinect is more capable than what MS is playing it up to be. Perhaps they are throttling it to save the on the % of CPU it uses from the 360 itself? I wonder how it will be used with computers, and how this will advance the hobby robot enthusiast market.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 08, 2010, 04:36:19 PM
I think a Kinect-like device would be pretty good for doing presentations and stuff. I think I might actually get this thing because my daughter would really like it. She loves to just take the analog sticks and move around the Avatar I made for her, and she always says "can I get that?!" when the Burger King Kinect commercial is on.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 08, 2010, 05:31:56 PM
Imagine the military applications Kinect would have if it could be hacked to pilot predator drones and/or giant robots.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 08, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
Quote
Imagine the military applications Kinect would have if it could be hacked to pilot predator drones and/or giant robots.
Yeah, I would LOVE to have dangerous weaponry controlled by loosey goosey motion controls. ::)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 08, 2010, 06:51:03 PM
Well obviously the military would be using the $150million version and not the $150 one.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on November 08, 2010, 07:33:25 PM
After less than a week on sale, US retailer GameStop has picked Kinect as the first round winner in the Great Motion Controller War of 2010.
When asked whether Microsoft's Kinect add-on or Sony's Move would come out on top this Christmas, senior VP of merchandising and marketing Bob McKenzie told Eurogamer, "I'd say right now Microsoft's Kinect is looking to be the winner of the two for us.
"We're very happy with the sell through over the weekend. It has met our expectations and actually exceeded our initial forecasts."
"I do have them both obviously and the Move sports bundle is a great option," he added, "but I knew for my family – with an eight-year-old daughter and ten-year-old boy – that Kinect was really going to be the thing that was more geared towards my household."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 09, 2010, 01:30:01 PM
I find it funny that all these people are all "well this is perfect for my kids" as if shallow junk casual games are the only thing your kids can play. Uh, didn't most of us play videogames as a kid? I don't recall us having to play dumbed-down shovelware. We were playing Final Fantasy and Contra and Legend of Zelda.
As people my age have kids I see them giving their kids the exact sort of garbage they used to complain that adults would buy them. As kids they were upset about being bought crappy games based on licenced properties and stuff like that. If you know games you know that something like Mario is kid-friendly but also has a great game behind it. But they'll buy their kid junk games while they themselves play only the best games.
Kids are the most hardcore gamers of them all. They'll play a videogame for an entire Saturday if no parent prevents them from doing so. They have the time to game much more than any working adult. And due to a lack of funds to buy new games they'll stick with a handful of games they do own and master them. Or at least that was common when I was a kid. I don't know how things work now. But the idea of having to buy shallow gimmicky bullshit like Kinect for your kids when your kid knows a controller front and back and probably knows your cellphone and computer better than you do is laughable.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 09, 2010, 01:40:31 PM
Are an 8-year old and 10-year old tall enough for Kinect to register? What was the height limit again?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 09, 2010, 01:51:31 PM
Three feet something.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 09, 2010, 02:55:20 PM
I noticed there are a lot of 8-10 year olds playing M rated games like Call of Duty online, even though that game is rated M and for that reason they're not supposed to. I think kids like to play the same sort of games as adults, so I agree with Ian. Shovelware is never cool no matter what generation you belong to. Its like when people turn 30+ they stop being cool and they turn into the exact same boring tools that their own parents used to be, so the cycle continues....
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 09, 2010, 03:43:56 PM
I noticed there are a lot of 8-10 year olds playing M rated games like Call of Duty online, even though that game is rated M and for that reason they're not supposed to. I think kids like to play the same sort of games as adults, so I agree with Ian. Shovelware is never cool no matter what generation you belong to. Its like when people turn 30+ they stop being cool and they turn into the exact same boring tools that their own parents used to be, so the cycle continues....
Yesterday's Penny Arcade was about pretty much exactly that:
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 09, 2010, 04:42:08 PM
I should mention that I don't think kids should be playing M-rated games. And when I was a kid games like that didn't really exist until I was about 11 or 12 and titles like Mortal Kombat were coming out so it isn't the same world. We don't live in a world where 99% of the games made are suitable for kids which changes the dynamic a fair bit. But they don't have to play junk either.
My brother is at a point where of his old group of friends from high school only he and one other guy remain unmarried and without children (oddly enough I'm older and yet none of my friends or myself are married). He has observed that when one becomes a dad one instantly become a big dork who is out-of-touch with everything. Bad haircuts, bad clothes, scrawny bodies with guts, inability to process routine things like using a bank machine and ordering at a drive thru (ie: things that have not changed since the guy was single and hip and he thus should still know how to do), complete lack of knowledge of anything pop culture related including old stuff that he KNEW ALREADY WHEN HE WAS SINGLE. Imagine getting the name wrong of the lead singer of your favourite band or thinking that Nintendo made the Sonic games. You figure even if you lived in a cave for ten years you would still remember what you knew before. Somehow that all disappears and you start misquoting your favourite films and mixing up old TV shows and thinking Superman's secret identity is Peter Parker. Suddenly you can't use a TV remote anymore or pay at the pump. It's like when giving your offspring your genetic material you literally give then some of yourself, in that you don't have it anymore. It's an exchange. "I can't understand a left-turn signal now because I gave that ability to my son."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 09, 2010, 10:11:25 PM
Ian: Which is why I LOVE Nintendo. All of Nintendo's games can be enjoyed by all ages. Gamers can find really fun depth in Nintendo's core games...and their is nothing objectionable in the games to keep people from playing.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ThePerm on November 10, 2010, 02:41:22 AM
Mortal Kombat came out when I was in 4th grade Ian, and your only a year older than me. I was like 8? I used to play Doom and Mortal Kombat, and I have not killed anybody yet. The deal is that the people who do crazy things are crazy people, and they ruin it for all of us. Great antidote by the way, I don't have kids, but i am like super out of touch as of late.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 10, 2010, 04:27:17 AM
The ratings thing is largely ignored anyway. Its there, but it isn't strictly enforced and most parents either don't pay attention or don't care what their kids are playing. But that's fine, because a video game isn't going to make someone evil. Bad kids will do bad things, but that has nothing to do with the games they play.
After Columbine happened over 10 years ago the media and the government and everyone blamed Marilyn Manson and video games. How many people took the time to think that maybe the kids being bullied at school might have had something to do with driving them over the edge? But that would actually require the schools and parents to get off their asses and actually do something about school bullying, and they can't have that so they went and blamed Manson's music and games like Doom instead, because that way they could pat themselves on the back and feel like their little moral crusade did something, but it didn't. Kids are still being bullied in school and being driven to suicide and/or murder even though the censorship is in effect, and even when neither music or games were involved at all.
True, many of those same kids did play violent games and/or listen to Manson's music... but maybe that's because Manson was the only one who understood how they felt so instead of that being the cause of their problem it was actually something they found solace in (if that makes sense).
I don't remember how old I was when Mortal Kombat came out, 10-12 or something like that I guess... but I played the game and I never went berzerk and killed anyone as a result of playing that game. But I can see how someone who had to live with constant and severe bullying might be driven to going berzerk, so that's what I think society needs to do more to address instead of blaming entertainment media.
Hell, if anything games like that would allow bullying victims a way to vent out their frustrations in a way that harms no one. Maybe it does more harm than good to censor stuff like that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 10, 2010, 10:22:31 AM
The ratings thing is largely ignored anyway. Its there, but it isn't strictly enforced
Maybe not in the stores you visit, my personal experience has been that GameStop will only sell M-rated games to people that obviously look like adults (and require ID from those who don't). Walmart won't even let you buy M-rated games in the self-checkout line unless an employee comes over and looks at your ID.
BNM, I think we all realize that are probably talking about it in terms of cash. Remember that Kinect costs $150, so they make more money from those than they do sales of Wii Remote or PlayStation Move.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 10, 2010, 11:18:01 AM
BNM, I think we all realize that are probably talking about it in terms of cash. Remember that Kinect costs $150, so they make more money from those than they do sales of Wii Remote or PlayStation Move.
Huh? Are you talking about the GameStop article or something else? If you are talking about the GS article, then I thinks it's pretty clear they are talking about units moved as they have obviously sold all they were expecting to and then some. And I said MS spent their money well because the GS guy even plugged Kinect over Move pushing it towards anyone with children. More "Free" advertising.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 10, 2010, 11:23:50 AM
I meant in his remarks that it's gonna be the winner of motion controllers. I don't think it will sell more units than PlayStation Move based on price, but it will be more profitable.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 10, 2010, 11:47:00 AM
Well comparing units of Move vs Kinect is a little misleading since you only need 1 Kinect per console vs upto 4 (or 8?) per PS3. I think it's pretty clear he is saying that they are selling more Kinects that they projected and that Kinect is gonna be selling to more 360 users than Move is gonna sell to individual PS3 owners. or in other words, there will be more 360's with Kinect hooked up after this Xmas than there will be PS3's with Move, based on the amount of units being moved out of GS and the general Hype of the product.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 10, 2010, 12:08:59 PM
Kudo Tsunoda: We have a Kinect Star Wars game coming out for next holiday [Christmas 2011]. http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/11720937 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/11720937)
Quote
BBC: And what's in store for 2011 [for Kinect?]
KT: We have a Kinect Star Wars game coming out for next holiday [Christmas 2011].
I think you could just easily imagine being a Jedi and using Kinect to make you feel you're part of a Star Wars experience, building yourself up into a Jedi.
I've seen a bunch of the game and it's super compelling.
And another one next year is Forza, which is the best racing game of this generation of consoles... Those are the two games I'm most excited about.
My guess is that will be one of their first games to also use the controller.... unless you gas and brake by pushing your hands(steering wheel) forward or pulling them back. or maybe you make he sounds with your mouth like you gassing and braking. "BrrrrrrrrrrrrrBrrrrrrrrrrrrbrrrrbrrrrrrrr Eeeeeeeeeeek" LOL
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 10, 2010, 12:25:28 PM
We already knew there was a Star Wars Kinect game in development (it was announced at E3), we now have a general release date though. If Kinect is under $100 by then, I may pick it up around the time the game comes out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 10, 2010, 12:45:50 PM
Quote
Mortal Kombat came out when I was in 4th grade Ian, and your only a year older than me.
MK came out in 1992 so I would have been 10. But I honestly didn't know **** about it until the home version came out in 1993, when I would have been 11.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 10, 2010, 02:10:45 PM
Lame. I was playing Mortal Kombat in the arcade when I was 11.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: that Baby guy on November 10, 2010, 02:11:03 PM
Well comparing units of Move vs Kinect is a little misleading since you only need 1 Kinect per console vs upto 4 (or 8?) per PS3. I think it's pretty clear he is saying that they are selling more Kinects that they projected and that Kinect is gonna be selling to more 360 users than Move is gonna sell to individual PS3 owners. or in other words, there will be more 360's with Kinect hooked up after this Xmas than there will be PS3's with Move, based on the amount of units being moved out of GS and the general Hype of the product.
The number you need is a little misleading, though. Technically, only up to two people can play Kinect at once. Even then, conditions aren't optimal, and people have to be very close. With the PS3, there's a little more freedom to control how you want to game, so the price is a little more fluid. It's just a small technicality, but factoring in the total price relative to the players gets a bit more difficult when you consider it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 10, 2010, 02:51:06 PM
But neither I nor the GS guy were talking revenue or money spent(that was TJ Spyke) and are strickly talking about how many homes are gonna be Kinect enabled vs Move enabled. According to sales at GameStops, Kinect is the bigger draw for customers and therefore there will be more 360's Kinect'd than PS3's will be Move'd come this holiday season.
I'm not sure how things got confused.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 10, 2010, 03:52:27 PM
You said you're against kids playing M rated games, but apparently you have no problem using M rated language on a site where kids might have read that (had it not been filtered out). I'm just saying...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 10, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
Quote
You said you're against kids playing M rated games, but apparently you have no problem using M rated language on a site where kids might have read that (had it not been filtered out). I'm just saying...
Are there seriously any kids on this forum? Like elementary school age kids? Plus this is the internet which I see largely as an anarchaic wasteland. Any kid on the internet can access footage of people having some really perverted sex and terrorists decapitating people.
... unless their parents put in the proper content filters, like this site has that censors the swear words. So no harm done. ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 11, 2010, 04:13:40 PM
Yeah, this site filters swearing so anyone who sees it chose to see it. Also kids aren't going to be scared of strong language.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 11, 2010, 07:23:09 PM
Kinect's BOM roughly $56, teardown finds That means close to $100 profit margin for every unit sold
Quote
SAN FRANCISCO—Microsoft Corp.'s Kinect motion-gaming add on for its Xbox 360 gaming platform carries a bill-of-materials (BOM) of roughly $56 and features chips made by PrimeSense Ltd., Marvell Technology Group Ltd., Texas Instruments Inc. and STMicroelectronics NV, according to a teardown analysis performed by UBM TechInsights. [...] SAN FRANCISCO—Microsoft Corp.'s Kinect motion-gaming add on for its Xbox 360 gaming platform carries a bill-of-materials (BOM) of roughly $56 and features chips made by PrimeSense Ltd., Marvell Technology Group Ltd., Texas Instruments Inc. and STMicroelectronics NV, according to a teardown analysis performed by UBM TechInsights.
A listing of the major parts found by UBM TechInsights within Kinect:
PrimeSense PS1080-A2 - PS1080 SoC image sensor processor (works with CMOS image sensor and an IR light source) Marvell 88AP1-BJD2 – Possible Marvell camera interface controller Elpida E5116AJBG-6E-E - 70nm DDR2 SDRAM (SI#18324) (2) Marvell G39 00A1P H1025519 XBOX1001 X851716-006 GEPP – Serial EEPROM for Marvell Controller Fairchild Semiconductor FDS8984 - N-Channel PowerTrench MOSFET NEC uPD720114 - USB 2.0 hub controller (2) Wolfson Microelectronics WM8737G - Stereo ADC with microphone preamp (one for every two microphones) STMicroelectronics 25P16V6G - M25P16 - 16 Mbit, low voltage, Serial Flash memory with 50 MHz SPI bus interface STMicroelectronics H28A 9017 WT245 – Texas Instruments SN74AVC4T245RGYR - 4-bit noninverting dual-supply bus transceiver Texas Instruments 70530-08T-AVF4 – TPS3705-30 - Processor Supervisory Circuits with Power-Fail Texas Instruments TAS1020B - universal serial bus (USB) peripheral interface device Kionix KXSD9 – 3-axis accelerometer (2) Analog Devices AD8694 - Quad, Low Cost, Low Noise, CMOS Rail-to-Rail Output Operational Amplifier TI ADS7830I - 8-Bit, 8-Channel Sampling A/D Converter with I2C Interface Allegro Microsystems A3906 - Low Voltage Stepper and Single/Dual DC Motor Driver STMicroelectronics M29W800DB - 8 Mbit (1Mb x8 or 512Kb x16) NV Flash Memory
$100 x 5 million units sold (projection) = $500million marketing campaign.
Of course I'm sure none of this includes manufacture , packaging, shipping or R&D, but now I see how MS planned on making up that $500million dollar marketing budget.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MegaByte on November 11, 2010, 07:28:07 PM
Interesting that there's an accelerometer in there.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 11, 2010, 08:18:04 PM
I'm really surprised that all of that only cost $56.
and didn't MS scale back on something that was in Kinect? I know it was rumored that they took out the Primesense chip, but that's obviously in there, but I'm almost certain there was something else that they supposedly took out due to cost concerns. Looks like they had a little room in the profit margin to keep whatever it was.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on November 11, 2010, 08:23:02 PM
How is Kinect fairing in sales and quality of titles so far?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on November 12, 2010, 12:55:05 AM
Interesting that there's an accelerometer in there.
Really doesn't make any sense.
Unless it somehow responded to vibrations in the floor, caused by jumping up and down. But I can't imagine it being that sensitive.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 12, 2010, 12:53:48 PM
I'm sure the accelerometer is so that Kinect knows when it is tilted forward or sitting up straight and can always realign it self to the default upright position.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on November 12, 2010, 01:59:32 PM
This is pretty much expected with Microsoft pouring money into the advertising of connect and it is Christmas so its going to have a strong start. Next year I see it falling fast. A quick look online shows next year's lineup to be pathetic and I don't think the current lineup is going to keep an add-on selling so much.
I think the reviews are hilarious. They are obviously hedging there bets because they remember when they **** all over Wii Sports and they all looked like complete fools. They seem to be giving a lot of middle ground for the scores and as oohhboy said, the reviews seem a bit schizophrenic. I think the ones that really despise the whole "casual" thing are just biting their tongues in case Kinect is huge.
To those who have it: What do you think the strongest game is?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 12, 2010, 03:10:12 PM
Dance Central. It's like Just Dance (including the not-terribly-accurate detection) with more emphasis on DLC.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 12, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Dance Central. It's like Just Dance (including the not-terribly-accurate detection) with more emphasis on DLC.
Yay DLC!...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 12, 2010, 03:24:26 PM
Quote
I think the reviews are hilarious. They are obviously hedging there bets because they remember when they **** all over Wii Sports and they all looked like complete fools. They seem to be giving a lot of middle ground for the scores and as oohhboy said, the reviews seem a bit schizophrenic.
That makes for pretty useless reviews. If you think a game sucks then state that. How popular a game ends up being or how well it sells is irrelevant. I want the honest opinion of the reviewers. I personally agreed with a lot of the reviews of Wii Sports as the game just didn't really do it for me. The fact that's it is one of the most popular games ever does not change my opinion on that, and it should not affect that of any decent reviewer.
The sites should try to not assign someone with an obvious chip on their shoulder about motion control or casual gaming or Kinect. You might want someone with less of a bias going in. But it should be the real opinion not the expected opinion of the site's audience or the expected opinion of the casual players who would like it. Just tell me what the reviewer honestly thinks and the site should be smart enough to employ reviewers with tastes similar to that of their audience.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 12, 2010, 03:38:36 PM
Dance Central is.... actually kinda boring. The music generally sucks. It helps to have tunes that people are familiar with. Yeah, I'm not much into discos or raves, but please, there are more song genres to dance to than the pop trash thats on the disc. Yes, its cool to learn the moves and learn to move in a rhythm, but its not cool to be forced to listen to Lady Gaga not once but twice.
Kinect Adventures is a good time, especially as a party game. It gets you up and moving all over the place. And it takes embarrasing photos of unsuspecting players.
I haven't tried any of the other games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ShyGuy on November 12, 2010, 04:01:07 PM
I choked down a whopper from Burger King, just to try and win a Connect bundle, but they screwed me and I got a wrapper without a code.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 12, 2010, 04:33:04 PM
Sounds like you are just really out of touch with what the mass population of youth at large consider popular music that they like to dance to. I'm not into most of the music ( if any) in the game, but the track list sounds like a winner to me.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 12, 2010, 04:48:50 PM
I choked down a whopper from Burger King, just to try and win a Connect bundle, but they screwed me and I got a wrapper without a code.
No they didn't, you don't get anything from the sandwich (which, BTW, is easily the best tasting fast food sanwich). You have to buy the whopper value meal. Medium will get you one chance (on the fries), while large will get you two (on the drink cup).
Kytim, every game is getting either terrible or mediocre scores, nothing that justifies the $150 price of Kinect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: ShyGuy on November 12, 2010, 05:17:10 PM
I got the medium fries, there was no code on the paper container that I could see. It's Kinetc themed but no prize code.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 12, 2010, 05:26:54 PM
Sounds like you are just really out of touch with what the mass population of youth at large consider popular music that they like to dance to. I'm not into most of the music ( if any) in the game, but the track list sounds like a winner to me.
I don't doubt it. And I don't have much of a taste for R&B or Rap, with exception to the songs from the 80s. I guess I didn't think about the song selection first.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on November 13, 2010, 01:11:21 AM
Dance Central. It's like Just Dance (including the not-terribly-accurate detection) with more emphasis on DLC.
Thats the worst thing I've heard all week. You're talking to a guy who never once bought any DLC though.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 13, 2010, 10:27:05 AM
Eurogamer's Ellie Gibson tried toolboxing Dance Central to test the detection, apparently it worked pretty well.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 15, 2010, 06:02:29 PM
Microsoft says sells 1 million Kinect devices http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AE4EQ20101115
Quote
(Reuters) - Microsoft Corp said on Monday it has sold more than 1 million of its new hands-free Kinect gaming systems in the first 10 days since launch, putting it on track to beat its target of 5 million sales by the end of the year. [...] "It's a strong start," said Don Mattrick, head of Microsoft's game unit, in a telephone interview on Monday. "Consumers are loving it."
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on November 15, 2010, 07:39:43 PM
The PS3 sold out at launch too. Anything can launch big; selling consistently long-term is a different matter.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 15, 2010, 07:52:12 PM
He's saying consumers love it based on the strong initial sales, but lets give it some time and see how much consumers "love it" once they've taken it home and begin the difficult task of getting it set up/working.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 15, 2010, 08:07:05 PM
PS Move didn't fair that well, I think they sold around 400,000 in the first 10 days (may have been first week). I think PS Move is catered to the wrong audience, PlayStation 3 is basically a hard core gamer's system, and Xbox 360 is becoming what the Wii set out to be, a video game console for everyone, with the library to back it up. The whole avatar thing was a huge Wii ripoff, no doubt, but it's working out now, Kinect is selling like a motherfucker. I'm probably going to get one on Tuesday or Wednesday myself. Personally I think Move has more potential tech-wise, but Kinect is gonna kick it's ass, and it's better for kids...and I've got kids. Sony's got it all wrong with the "who says motion gaming is for kids?" and Microsoft has it all right, basically showing that it is for kids, but adults can have fun too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 15, 2010, 10:13:45 PM
He's saying consumers love it based on the strong initial sales, but lets give it some time and see how much consumers "love it" once they've taken it home and begin the difficult task of getting it set up/working.
What was difficult about it? I plugged mine in and it started up. Yes, it needed to be initialized, but its not a difficult thing to do.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on November 15, 2010, 11:56:04 PM
I see the big difference being the incredible amount of money MS is putting into launching this thing and also launching much closer to Christmas.
Don't forget traditionally software for the xbox is huge the first few weeks (or week) then drops like a rock. Kinect also apparently had a ton of preorders that also makes the opening sales very large. Will an add-on be any different? I think the Christmas season will at least keep the sales up but I still expect a drop afterwards.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 16, 2010, 02:11:09 AM
Rumor: Gears of War Coming to Kinect http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1134355p1.html (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1134355p1.html)
Quote
According to our tip, Microsoft is using the Spike TV Video Games Awards (VGAs) to introduce some big action games, including new titles for the Kinect. The headliner isGears of War for Kinect, coming straight from Epic Games. Now, we cannot clarify whether or not this is an all-new Gears of War for Kinect or if it's an existing Gears of War game, retro-fitted for the camera controller. But it definitely clicks with recent rumblings that Microsoft wants to get in front of the conventional wisdom that the Kinect is only a toy for casual gamers and family.
I can't wait to see that.
Duck behind the couch for cover pop out and roll behind the table "pew pew pew"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 16, 2010, 04:28:56 AM
Rumor: Gears of War Coming to Kinect http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1134355p1.html (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/113/1134355p1.html)
Quote
According to our tip, Microsoft is using the Spike TV Video Games Awards (VGAs) to introduce some big action games, including new titles for the Kinect. The headliner isGears of War for Kinect, coming straight from Epic Games. Now, we cannot clarify whether or not this is an all-new Gears of War for Kinect or if it's an existing Gears of War game, retro-fitted for the camera controller. But it definitely clicks with recent rumblings that Microsoft wants to get in front of the conventional wisdom that the Kinect is only a toy for casual gamers and family.
I can't wait to see that.
Duck behind the couch for cover pop out and roll behind the table "pew pew pew"
It will be a rail-shooter mode and wherever you point is where the gun will fire. :P
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 16, 2010, 01:59:55 PM
Didn't Epic Games say they didn't think GOW could work with Kinect?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 16, 2010, 03:45:26 PM
Kinect doubles UK Xbox sales http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-16-kinect-doubles-uk-xbox-sales (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-11-16-kinect-doubles-uk-xbox-sales)
Quote
Sales of Xbox 360 in the UK doubled last week off the back of the launch of Kinect, Eurogamer has learnt.
The spike was confirmed this afternoon by sales monitor Chart-Track, a spokesperson stating that, while specific figures could not be revealed, it was "more than a fair reflection" to say the figure was double that of the previous week.
The boost is understood to have widened substantially the gap between Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, with Sony's biggest hope for a pre-Christmas surge coming next week with the release of the long-delayed Gran Turismo 5.
A senior publishing source added: "360 doubled last week and it was already selling a lot. Wii and PS3 have been beaten by 360 consistently over the past few months.
"Wii is still outselling PS3 – the numbers are going the wrong way for Nintendo year-on-year but it's certainly not a disaster."
Still sort of pointless info without any numbers, but atleast we also know that the Wii isn't a disaster :D
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stogi on November 16, 2010, 07:43:57 PM
I find the Kinect intriguing, mostly because of homebrew. I feel like the actual use for games is pretty much a gimmick, but controlling your TV or computer with it would be pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 16, 2010, 07:59:40 PM
Here is Kinect running on a PC
Quote
Full 3D live video capture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QrnwoO1-8A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QrnwoO1-8A)
& 3D drawing too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brpu30vjCa4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brpu30vjCa4)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 17, 2010, 12:28:42 PM
Today's Penny Arcade comic is pretty funny and I can really relate to it.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/11/17/
I felt like they do back when the Wii was selling so huge. I didn't get it and I don't get Kinect. You get the feeling that maybe this is a generational shift kind of thing. Games are changing and the old folks don't get it. It's no different then how I hear something like Justin Bieber and I think "how can anyone with a functional brain like this" but then my parents said the same thing when I was a kid listening to MC Hammer.
If Kinect is a big hit and doesn't die off after initial launch success then, yeah, I can't make any judgement call on what games will sell. The door is pretty much open for anything to be a hit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 17, 2010, 12:40:03 PM
I get the idea of Kinect and like it, what boggles me is why so many people would be willing to pay $150 for it. I don't think it's worth anywhere near that, Microsoft got the last laugh though and the damn thing costs less than $60 to make, but I guess they want to make back that $500 million they are spending on advertising. They have to sell over 5 million devices just to make back their marketing budget. If it was $100, I would maybe consider buying one.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 17, 2010, 08:26:37 PM
Remember, that's $56 for bare parts. It does not account for manufacturing, engineering costs, or anything else but the bare parts. With that in mind, I got Kinect today, and I must admit, it's quite impressive. It took a little while to get it calibrated for myself and my daughter, but we had a blast playing with it. Only played Kinect Adventures so far, my kid's gonna play Kinectimals in a little bit.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 17, 2010, 10:50:39 PM
So...I just made sure no one was looking, and played the Dance Central demo that's on the Kinect Adventures disc. The move detection was flawless, at least in my family room.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: bustin98 on November 18, 2010, 12:14:25 AM
chickenshit :P
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 18, 2010, 03:55:03 PM
Has anyone tried the Kinect demo at Best Buy? I would like to try it and see if I like Kinect, but store demos are not always good.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on November 18, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
I'm starting to think that Kinect is going to make it. It isn't going to get killed off by bad word of mouth. No one is going to return it to the store when they find out how crappy it is. This isn't going to happen. I have never been a fan of the Wii and pretty much made all the same assumptions about it a few years back. But I was wrong.
I figured motion control was a silly fad because it lacked substance. Wii Sports seemed short and shallow. I lost interest in it quickly and figured that it relied a lot of novelty value and that if Nintendo wanted the Wii to continue to be successful that something more substancial needed to be on the way. Hell the damn game would misfire on me all the time. Won't other people notice that and be turned off? But the Wii continued on with lots of waggle and weak shovelware titles and it didn't make a difference. Casuals obviously didn't care.
I felt that with the Wii and the Wii series Nintendo was doing the bare minimum they could get away with. I think subconsciously most of us thought that, even if you are a big fan of the Wii Series games. The reason I think that is with Move we all assumed it was doomed because they wouldn't have Nintendo's games and the cost would be too high and Kinect was even more doomed because it had all the above plus it didn't work worth a ****. What we were really saying is that Wii Sports and Wii Fit and all those are at the low end of the spectum. If you released product that was LESS than that you were doomed to failure. Casuals will eat up the Nintendo stuff but this is more or less the worst product you could get away with.
Well I have a feeling that we can't really seperate our own tastes and that the threshold of what is or isn't acceptable to casuals is a lot lower than we think. For casuals Wii Sports is not the threshold. They will gladly accept less. I think what it really is is that Nintendo's Wii series is the minimum that WE will accept. We'll enjoy Wii Sports and Wii Fit but really couldn't enjoy less than that. So Sony or MS doing a lesser version of the Wii seems like worthless junk in our eyes. We're confusing our minimum standards for that of everyone. We see Nintendo's usage of motion control and figure that nothing less than that would be acceptable. We're probably wrong and that's why the Kinect is succeeding when we don't think it should.
When Nintendo talked about their games being for everyone they weren't kidding. I thought it meant dumbing down core games so that casuals like them too. No, what they did was take casual games and bring them up to a level where core gamers can get some enjoyment from them too. Sony and MS are not doing that.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Spak-Spang on November 18, 2010, 07:33:28 PM
No, Kinect won't be sent back to the store...
The question is will fun games come out for it? If the games are fun people will play it. Just like the Wii. The casuals and gamers are basically of the same opinion with the Wii, if fun games come out that they want to play, they will dust off their Wii buy the game and into the system again. The difference is that casuals and gamers like different types of games.
Kinect is in the same boat...the initial sale is what is important and Microsoft knows that. If they can get it into the house, then they have won. Nobody returns crappy products...just broken products. So if it is in the house...when a new fun game comes out people will buy it. I think Kinect is a harder sell for the gamers though, because they understand this can never be the future of gaming...at least this product without another controller can never be the future.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on November 18, 2010, 08:17:25 PM
Minor point, but almost no store lets you return video game products anymore (unless they are damaged, but then you can only exchange it for a new copy), you can only trade them in.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on November 18, 2010, 10:56:02 PM
I don't know where you got that from, but Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Target, etc will all take back this stuff. You can't return games anywhere (unless you bought used at GameSpot), but this is hardware...you can take it back. GameStop won't refund it, but they've never given refunds on anything, except for used games and took them back within 7 days.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 19, 2010, 02:52:02 AM
Minor point, but almost no store lets you return video game products anymore (unless they are damaged, but then you can only exchange it for a new copy), you can only trade them in.
What would they do if every single copy in existence were damaged? (as was the case with the old E.T. game on the Atari 2600, which not only sucked terribly but was actually broken to the point where it was impossible to win)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 19, 2010, 04:17:36 AM
I can see someone getting it and once they discover their kid is too short for it to register them they would return it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 19, 2010, 12:53:17 PM
Interactive Puppet Demo for Kinect (Homebrew) http://www.vimeo.com/16985224
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: apdude on November 19, 2010, 04:05:35 PM
On NPR Science Friday today they were talking about Kinect with some developers from Microsoft. It was basically a discussion of how its a revolution in interfacing with technology. It sounded like they were more interested in real world applications of this than actually gaming. Though one lady said it was perfect for gaming since the only limit is what your body can do, but when I'm gaming I want to be able to do things I can't necessarly do in real life so that actually sounds somewhat limiting.
I think, as it was discussed, this will eventually be the platform for personal training software such as learning to improve your golf swing, etc. instead of "hardcore" gaming.
It also sounded like it's just a sophisticated sensor and you can access the information it's collecting through USB so it seems if one is so inclined you can basically run this on any system if you know what information your looking for.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 19, 2010, 05:26:48 PM
The amateur tech enthusiast circle has been having alot of fun with Kinect and made some pretty interesting things with it so far in the 2 weeks since it's been released.
Now I wait for someone to truly come up with something practical and useful now that we know they are able to collect just about everything Kinect is detecting. I still think it's a nice piece of tech, I just don't see it finding it's best uses in a gaming environment.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: apdude on November 19, 2010, 05:42:57 PM
Agreed. It seems that they're counting on its gaming applications to sell it to the early adopters then expand it to a wider audiance.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 20, 2010, 03:14:26 AM
I think with Kinect we have to see what happens in the following months. The game library is still extremely fragile with nothing but shovelware on the horizon and the usual suspects screwing up motion control even worse than they used to.
Didn't Epic Games say they didn't think GOW could work with Kinect?
That doesn't mean they won't do it anyway.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on November 20, 2010, 03:17:10 AM
I loved how they were trumpeting that western/sci-fi rail-shooter while those have gotten as boring as PB&J or bologna sandwiches every day at school for 5 years straight on the Wii. Be interesting to see how rail shooters get accepted on Kinect. I will especially LOL if GOW Kinect is a rail shooter.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Luigi Dude on November 21, 2010, 01:38:06 AM
The thing I think is going to hurt Kinect's legs the most still the fact your required to stand up and actually interact with all the games. Most people when they play videogames like to sit down and relax, not jump up and go crazy. This is why all the motion controls on Nintendo games for the Wii only requires you to do very simple movements to do them so that anyone can play the system. Now yeah, there are some people who might get up and swing the controller around, but for everyone else, a simple flick of the wrist can do the same thing.
Now I do expect Kinect to sell well for these early months based on all the hype Microsoft generated, but after the holidays season is done I expect a lot of people to start getting sick of the thing rather quickly and the word of mouth to get poor. I knew people who when Wii Sports came out, would stand up and play it all the time for the first few weeks because of the early excitement. After a while though, even though they still liked the game, they started playing it sitting down because the original excitement of pretending to be a real Baseball or Tennis player wore off and they just wanted to simply play the game for the gameplay and didn't care about the novelty of pretending your a real person anymore. This is why when Wii Sports Resort came out, they still bought it because they liked the first Wii Sports but played all the games sitting down when they first played it, even though a few years earlier they were jumping all over the place when they first played the original.
This is why I see this being a major problem for Kinect. With the Wii, once people got tired of playing while standing up and waving their arms around, they had the option to sit down and still enjoy the games in a more relaxing and simple setting. With Kinect on the other hand, once people get tired of moving around, they'll have no such option and so will be unable to play and just stop playing the games altogether. As a result owners of Kinect will stop buying software because they don't care about standing to play anymore and they'll tell their friends that the system gets old fast which will kill the momentum.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on November 21, 2010, 07:40:26 AM
Maybe someone can develop a game for Kinect that will recognize a chair or a couch, and so in the game its like the chair or couch becomes like a tank or a vehicle and you are the driver, and you can move your arms like you would with a steering wheel and that will make your Couch Tank drive around on the screen, and then you can make like you're loading an imaginary cannon and then use that to fire at other Couch Tanks in the game.
So that way you can be able to sit down and also be able to play Kinect, because this way you're bringing your sitting thing into the game with you and it becomes your command ship. Oh yeah, speaking of that, how about a Star Trek simulator for Kinect where you can pretend you're sitting in the Captain's chair and issue commands via hand gestures or voice recognition? You can be like "Make it so!" while you just sit there and sip on a cup of Earl Grey tea, and not actually have to get up or do anything. And also just like in Star Trek, you can hail alien ships and talk to them through the TV as if that were your ship's viewscreen. "Red Alert! Arm the Photon Torpedoes!"
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 21, 2010, 09:57:08 AM
Remember that voice recognition is only available in a small number of areas (not just languages, accents!)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: King of Twitch on November 21, 2010, 11:03:04 AM
That would be awesome.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 22, 2010, 12:57:33 AM
I found this too funny to not post it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo)
talking about sitting around and doing nothing while you play...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BeautifulShy on November 22, 2010, 07:33:11 AM
I found this too funny to not post it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo)
talking about sitting around and doing nothing while you play...
Okay thats pretty wierd. Is the gameplay built in to the game so that it looks like you are doing a good job when you possibly are not?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 22, 2010, 05:12:57 PM
I have no idea, but between this video and the one I posted in the Black Ops thread,I've had a good laugh at gaming becoming a little too accessible (even if the CoD video was just the first level. It was still on the hardest setting).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KDR_11k on November 26, 2010, 04:56:37 PM
And people complain that Nintendo makes games that play themselves...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on November 29, 2010, 08:10:59 PM
Xbox 360 Surpasses 2.5 Million Kinect Sensors Sold http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2010/nov10/11-29msxboxblackfridaymopr.mspx
Quote
Microsoft Corp. today announced that strong demand over the Black Friday weekend has propelled retail sales of Kinect for Xbox 360 to more than 2.5 million units worldwide since it launched just 25 days ago.
“We are thrilled about the consumer response to Kinect, and are working hard with our retail and manufacturing partners to expedite production and shipments of Kinect to restock shelves as fast as possible to keep up with demand,” said Don Mattrick, president of the Interactive Entertainment Business at Microsoft. “With sales already exceeding two and a half million units in just 25 days, we are on pace to reach our forecast of 5 million units sold to consumers this holiday.”
“Kinect on Xbox 360 was a top performer at Target this weekend,” said Nik Nayar, vice president, merchandising, Target. “We expect Kinect will be a must-have gift this holiday season, so Target will continue to receive consistent shipments of Kinect throughout December. The hands-free, active gaming experience that Kinect offers is something that everyone in the family can enjoy.”
I found this too funny to not post it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWbLOFGSEDo) talking about sitting around and doing nothing while you play...
This is getting ridiculous. Mario Kart Wii had the right idea with its option to use automatic or manual drift, which allows it to appeal to both newcomers and fans. Also, those constant control pop-ups would drive me insane.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 02, 2010, 12:22:32 AM
So I saw Kinect in motion for the first time earlier today (picking up my Logitech Z-5500 from Fry's ;D) and I can't say I was very impressed. I can see how it could be fun and how it might make a great gift for family members who are either young or not all that much into gaming, but I'm not sold on it.
It had a little bit of lag, not so much that you wouldn't forget about it if that were it's only issue, but it's not, so it is very noticeable while watching from the sidelines.
The main fun killer was the detection was kinda poor at times. There were 2 players playing and while one was being detected just fine, the other one would jump and nothing would happen, then he would duck and 2 seconds later after he had already run into the obstacle, the character would duck. He was audibly frustrated even though he wasn't even losing (going by points) but the girl next to him was just jumping away and several layers ahead of him (I think they were playing Kinect Adventures - they were on the rail game where you have to punch walls and duck or jump over things in your way.) They looked like they were having fun most of the time, and the girl that was playing told me she was soo tired and sweating like crazy playing that game.
I can see why this will be a BIG seller throughout the holidays, but I'm taking the wait and see approach as I think HYPE for this device might take a significant nose dive once the dust settles, and I think that may be rather quickly if they don't show more games with than clones of what has already been shown.... but that sound vaguely similar to what people said about Wii 4 years ago.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on December 02, 2010, 11:51:22 AM
Remember that store demos are poor indicators of how good or bad something is, especially something like Kinect that has to be calibrated.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on December 02, 2010, 12:39:11 PM
Quote
The main fun killer was the detection was kinda poor at times. There were 2 players playing and while one was being detected just fine, the other one would jump and nothing would happen, then he would duck and 2 seconds later after he had already run into the obstacle, the character would duck. He was audibly frustrated even though he wasn't even losing (going by points) but the girl next to him was just jumping away and several layers ahead of him
The thing is I encounter this with the Wii all the time. Even playing Wii Sports Resort using Motion Plus I find that the accuracy is the shits and it drives me nuts. I cannot enjoy a videogame if I don't feel like I'm in control. But that's just me. If it mattered that much to everyone else then the Wii would have been in bargain bins within a year. Instead we got Wii-mania. For the target market of motion control I don't think responsiveness and accuracy matter.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on December 03, 2010, 12:46:31 AM
They probably weren't standing in the right places. I played Kinect Adventures (I own it), and it was *very* accurate. Dance Central is also extremely accurate. My daughter plays Kinectimals, and if she does the right motions (you do need to be somewhat precise so that the game understands that you're actually trying to do the action), it detects them perfectly. It's actually kind of funny watching her lay on the ground and then her on-screen cub plays dead.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 03, 2010, 12:12:35 PM
It's time to pack it up Nintendo, you've had a good run....
A Real Threat Now Faces the Nintendo Wii http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/technology/personaltech/03KINECT.html?_r=1
Quote
THE question can now be asked: Does it make sense to buy a Nintendo Wii anymore? Enlarge This Image
For four years, there has been no question.[...] [...] Until now.[...]after the introductions this fall of the Move system from Sony for the PS3 and the brilliant Kinect from Microsoft for the Xbox 360, the Wii no longer does anything important that the PS3 or Xbox 360 cannot do even better. [...] On the one hand (so to speak), the Move basically copies the Wii’s wandlike controller, although it feels slightly more accurate.[...] [...] Moreover, the PS3 plays Blu-ray movie discs and can display 3-D images, two things the Wii cannot do. And the PS3 has a full lineup of great traditional games if you want to pick up a real controller. So with the Move, Sony gets zero points for creativity but full marks for successful imitation. [...] Then you have what deserves, as far as I am concerned, to be the technology hit of the year: the Kinect from Microsoft. If you have not heard by now, Kinect takes the concept of the Wii (and the Move) and pursues it to its natural culmination, getting rid of the electronic game controller altogether. The Wii rescued gaming from being in a perpetual niche by introducing a controller that was simple to use. Kinect is driving gaming into the future by literally seeing and listening to you. [...] So the real threat to Nintendo and the Wii is not Sony, it is Microsoft and Kinect. Kinect is even easier to use than the Wii, and it brings your whole body into an electronic entertainment experience in a way that has never existed before.
Does it make sense to buy a Wii anymore? If price really matters or you just need your Nintendo fix, then sure. But there are more innovative and exciting options these days.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Kytim89 on December 03, 2010, 12:48:35 PM
It's time to pack it up Nintendo, you've had a good run....
A Real Threat Now Faces the Nintendo Wii http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/technology/personaltech/03KINECT.html?_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/technology/personaltech/03KINECT.html?_r=1)
Quote
THE question can now be asked: Does it make sense to buy a Nintendo Wii anymore? Enlarge This Image
For four years, there has been no question.[...] [...] Until now.[...]after the introductions this fall of the Move system from Sony for the PS3 and the brilliant Kinect from Microsoft for the Xbox 360, the Wii no longer does anything important that the PS3 or Xbox 360 cannot do even better. [...] On the one hand (so to speak), the Move basically copies the Wii’s wandlike controller, although it feels slightly more accurate.[...] [...] Moreover, the PS3 plays Blu-ray movie discs and can display 3-D images, two things the Wii cannot do. And the PS3 has a full lineup of great traditional games if you want to pick up a real controller. So with the Move, Sony gets zero points for creativity but full marks for successful imitation. [...] Then you have what deserves, as far as I am concerned, to be the technology hit of the year: the Kinect from Microsoft. If you have not heard by now, Kinect takes the concept of the Wii (and the Move) and pursues it to its natural culmination, getting rid of the electronic game controller altogether. The Wii rescued gaming from being in a perpetual niche by introducing a controller that was simple to use. Kinect is driving gaming into the future by literally seeing and listening to you. [...] So the real threat to Nintendo and the Wii is not Sony, it is Microsoft and Kinect. Kinect is even easier to use than the Wii, and it brings your whole body into an electronic entertainment experience in a way that has never existed before.
Does it make sense to buy a Wii anymore? If price really matters or you just need your Nintendo fix, then sure. But there are more innovative and exciting options these days.
BnM, at this point if you had to choose between the three motion controllers, which would you choose?
I still can not shake this feeling as though Sony and Microsoft's motion control system will eventually fizzle out.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on December 03, 2010, 01:01:12 PM
Quote
the Wii no longer does anything important that the PS3 or Xbox 360 cannot do even better.
Well, yeah. That was obvious back when Move and Kinect were mere rumours. Motion control was all the Wii ever had going for it.
But Nintendo does honestly make the absolute best motion control games. And if motion control is all you are interested in the Wii is the most affordable. But as an overall package the other two are way better buys. But if you cared, you already knew that. It's nothing new.
So, now it is time for a new console from Nintendo. Sony and MS have succeeded with their motion control so now they're competition. This "well, we're not competing with them" bullshit no longer flies. Same type of product, same audience.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Luigi Dude on December 03, 2010, 06:28:38 PM
the Wii no longer does anything important that the PS3 or Xbox 360 cannot do even better.
So, now it is time for a new console from Nintendo. Sony and MS have succeeded with their motion control so now they're competition. This "well, we're not competing with them" bullshit no longer flies. Same type of product, same audience.
Only they haven't yet. The Move has already failed at capturing the casual audience and isn't doing too hot with the traditional audience either so unless Sony releases some magical killer app in the coming months, it's basically a non factor in the motion wars. Kinect on the other hand might be doing well right now, but just because something has a successful launch doesn't mean it's going to continue doing well. We all have the remember lots of games and systems have had successful launches and yet that didn't mean much for them several months later when they failed to have any legs.
Not to mention we still have no idea if most of Kinects sales are coming from the device by itself or the Xbox bundle. Now if it's the bundle that's making up a lot of the sales, then Nintendo might have something to worry about if it continues doing well. But if most of the sales are coming from the device by itself then that doesn't really effect Nintendo since it's just current 360 owners buying the device which means Microsoft has failed at really stealing away the casual audience from Nintendo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on December 04, 2010, 01:52:35 AM
Motion control was all the Wii ever had going for it.
Um, excuse me. I do believe the Nintendo 1st party exclusives meant something.
But hey, maybe its just me.... (along with the millions and millions of others)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on December 04, 2010, 08:05:19 AM
The N64 had a great launch. We all know how that turned out. ;)
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on December 04, 2010, 07:09:32 PM
I think well before Kinect and Move start to gain momentum Nintendo is going to pull something else out of their sleeves. Well, 3DS isn't far off and that's going to steal attention and that's going to end up being the hot item for quite some time. I know that comparing consoles and handhelds is like comparing apples and oranges, but they're both fruit and they both satisfy your hunger. 3DS is something you can sit on the bus and play, can the same thing be said about Kinect?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on December 05, 2010, 03:08:01 AM
Well, the 3DS and the Kinect aren't exactly in the same market. I mean, I can't play Wii on a bus either. In terms of taking away mindshare, 3DS should help tone down Kinect and Move sales. However, there will still be a market for motion controlled console gaming, and if Nintendo is being outclassed by its competition, then that's still problematic.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on December 06, 2010, 06:17:01 PM
Its possibly problematic for the Wii, but Nintendo's bottom line won't be in any danger for the forseeable future. Even as interest in Wii and DS diminishes, the 3DS is going to pick up all the slack (and then some). Not to mention that the Wii has such a huge lead in terms of installed units that the Wii 2 will probably be released before they manage to catch up. Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the Wii is still selling strongly despite the competition's motion ripoffs, and in a worse case scenario there is still plenty of room for price cuts.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on December 09, 2010, 10:55:36 AM
Go to Kotaku and see what some MIT guys have done with the Kinect. It is pretty 'basic' but it is also amazing, and one step closer to the Minority Report interface that seems inevitable, maybe for the gaming PC console I imagine the NeXBoX will be. If I have time later I'll post a link if no one else does.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 09, 2010, 12:00:46 PM
Kinect might really find it's niche once you enable it with a 3D TV.
Being able to reach out and touch 3D object with your hands/feet/head/etc. could be exactly what might make people get over the hatred for 3D glasses for 3D TV's. Unfortunately MS doesn't make 3D anything, so that kind of update will likely have to wait till next gen.
Just imagine a soccer game where you kick the ball as it comes out of the screen and watch it go back in the screen. Or a main menu where the icons rotate infront of you when you can reach out and touch/move/manipulate the object that is seeming floating right in front of you.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 09, 2010, 08:09:00 PM
USA Today - Re: NPD Nov. 2010
Kinect for the Xbox 360 was the best-selling accessory item for the month; the Xbox 360 was the best-selling console hardware system for the month, with a 68% increase over last November.
On track for 5 million before year ends....? Sounds like it.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 09, 2010, 11:20:10 PM
Kinect might really find it's niche once you enable it with a 3D TV.
Being able to reach out and touch 3D object with your hands/feet/head/etc. could be exactly what might make people get over the hatred for 3D glasses for 3D TV's. Unfortunately MS doesn't make 3D anything, so that kind of update will likely have to wait till next gen.
Just imagine a soccer game where you kick the ball as it comes out of the screen and watch it go back in the screen. Or a main menu where the icons rotate infront of you when you can reach out and touch/move/manipulate the object that is seeming floating right in front of you.
Take this video and combine it with a 3D screen and you have your Minority Report. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlLschoMhuE&
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on December 17, 2010, 07:20:23 PM
I finally managed to find a Kinect, but I have to basically re-arrange my room to use it. The six feet is not a recommendation, it's a requirement since you have to be six feet away to calibrate it. I am wondering if I should bother, maybe I should just return it if I can.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Adrock on December 18, 2010, 01:05:08 PM
If you don't have the room to play it correctly, it's kind of not worth having. I'd suggest ebay to make a profit, but I just checked and they're not going for much more than the MSRP.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on December 18, 2010, 01:27:24 PM
If you don't have the room to play it correctly, it's kind of not worth having. I'd suggest ebay to make a profit, but I just checked and they're not going for much more than the MSRP.
Yeah, its not like the Wii, which in the holiday season of 2006 was selling upwards of $1000 on sites like ebay. I guess you could use that as an indicator that Kinect isn't as hot of an item as the Wii was during its height.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 18, 2010, 02:01:25 PM
If you don't have the room to play it correctly, it's kind of not worth having. I'd suggest ebay to make a profit, but I just checked and they're not going for much more than the MSRP.
Yeah, its not like the Wii, which in the holiday season of 2006 was selling upwards of $1000 on sites like ebay. I guess you could use that as an indicator that Kinect isn't as hot of an item as the Wii was during its height.
Or that MS has a better supply of Kinect than Nintendo did of Wii. Most store chains were reporting that they were "sold out" of Kinect, but MS has been keeping the supply as steady as they can.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on December 18, 2010, 04:00:37 PM
Well, I gotta admit, a lot of us (myself included) thought Kinect was going to be a flop. At this point it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. Actually I'm glad, because this diverts most of the attention away from Sony's Move, and unlike Move this is actually something other than a blatant ripoff of Nintendo.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Guitar Smasher on December 18, 2010, 04:41:08 PM
I wouldn't call it a success yet, not until we see any significant Kinect software sales.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: KisakiProject on December 20, 2010, 03:01:50 PM
I played it at walmart. It was surprisingly enjoyable. The controls weren't perfect but it reminded me of playing wii sports at launch. I wonder if their will be a Kinect Plus? It really wasn't that bad but doesn't seem worth $150. $100 seems just right to me. I'll wait for a price drop. Though I'm a huge panzer dragoon nut so I may jump on it when Project Draco hits.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on December 24, 2010, 11:58:29 AM
MS: 2011 'all about Kinect' http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=281686
Quote
Microsoft has claimed that its 2011 will "ultimately be all about Kinect" - as the device spearheads a "brilliant" line-up on 360.
"As for the future, we've got a brilliant line-up for 2011 but it's ultimately all about Kinect. Kinect is going to blow people's minds. They're [already] buying it, but we've got a line-up of Kinect games that will blow people away."
I wonder what they could have planned that will make people say Wow? or is it all just marketing hype speak?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on December 24, 2010, 09:54:40 PM
Unless they increase they "quadruple the accuracy", it's all talk. Hell, if they double it, it might even be something.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on December 27, 2010, 07:45:10 AM
What they are going to do is take the Kinect beyond the 360. PC support is coming, and then all the cool hacks that have been floating around will no longer be hacks, they'll be part of the software.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 06, 2011, 07:28:49 PM
Quote from: Bloomberg
Microsoft has clarified to me that the 8 million KInect number is sell in, or how many were shipped to retailers. Not sell thru.
Forecast for Kinect was 5 mln units sold thru to customers. Microsoft says it `far surpassed' the 5 mln sell thru forecast but no exact #
Going forward, Microsoft says it will return to reporting sell in numbers for Kinect, which is what it has always done for consoles.
Looks like Kinect has hit all it's goals and still one the ground running.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 06, 2011, 08:14:14 PM
I was at K-Mart a few weeks ago and there was only one Kinect left. Maybe the rest all sold out, or maybe the store people just leave one on the shelf to make customers think its the last one so they rush to buy it? Who knows. Anyway, if sales are even half of what MS says then at this point Kinect is beyond the point where it could be called a failure (at least in terms of sales).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on January 06, 2011, 10:18:05 PM
They're showing Avatar Kinect at CES. It's video calling but with your avatar instead of your face. You can sit while doing it, and the avatar didn't walk around.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on January 08, 2011, 07:37:13 AM
So I played Kinect at a friends and it was quite interesting. I might be converted. I was dead set on getting as PS3 this year with Move but I might go the other way now. Really I want to eventually get both but the fun I had with the dancing games alone might push me over since there's a lot of great regular stuff on 360 as well. Like Snoopy Flying Ace (I just adore that game). But I gotta find some promising and fun Kinect games other than dancing ones before I fully convert and little else interests me at this point.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 09, 2011, 06:25:47 AM
Well we bought a Kinect yesterday and while it needs to be mounted up higher because our living room isn't that big it still works really well. It was quite a bit of fun, especially Kinect Sports. Overall a fascinating piece of technology that has a lot of potential. I'm also likely getting PS Move as well for the more traditional games.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 14, 2011, 01:55:30 PM
Kinect vs Move: Round 1 The Holiday Season has come and gone http://www.industrygamers.com/news/microsofts-xbox-360-kinect-bundles-outsold-move-bundles-by-51/ (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/microsofts-xbox-360-kinect-bundles-outsold-move-bundles-by-51/)
Quote
If you want to look at the recent holiday season as "Round 1" of the motion controls battle between Microsoft and Sony, it would appear that Microsoft's Kinect is winning handily (bad pun, considering that it's "hands free" gaming). Not only has Kinect quickly shipped 8 million units, but for the month of December, Xbox 360 Kinect bundles outsold PS3 Move bundles considerably. The software for the motion camera is faring far better too, according to Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter.
"About one fifth of PS3 sales included bundles with Sony’s Move controller, suggesting a modest third month (we have chosen not to subscribe to peripheral data). About half of Xbox 360 sales included bundles with Microsoft’s Kinect peripheral, as Xbox 360 Kinect console bundles outsold PS3 Move console bundles by 5:1," Pachter said.
"Microsoft announced that it has shipped 8 million Kinect units since launch (in November), which was raised from its earlier goal of 5 million. More significantly, in our view, the top two selling Kinect software titles outsold the top two Move titles by over 13:1."
Looks like this round went overwhelmingly to Kinect, but can Kinect get more quality software to keep the interest up or do you think they will try to ride on the success of Dance Central and Kinect Sports for as long as possible because they have nothing of value in the pipeline?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on January 14, 2011, 02:18:06 PM
Sony had a nice spin to the NPD data, basically focusing on how much sales improved over last December.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 14, 2011, 02:34:17 PM
I actually meant to repost this in the Move thread to focus on what Sony might do with Move..... I think I'll do that now that I remember.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on January 25, 2011, 12:01:46 AM
I'm starting to think that Kinect is going to make it. It isn't going to get killed off by bad word of mouth. No one is going to return it to the store when they find out how crappy it is. This isn't going to happen. I have never been a fan of the Wii and pretty much made all the same assumptions about it a few years back. But I was wrong.
I figured motion control was a silly fad because it lacked substance. Wii Sports seemed short and shallow. I lost interest in it quickly and figured that it relied a lot of novelty value and that if Nintendo wanted the Wii to continue to be successful that something more substancial needed to be on the way. Hell the damn game would misfire on me all the time. Won't other people notice that and be turned off? But the Wii continued on with lots of waggle and weak shovelware titles and it didn't make a difference. Casuals obviously didn't care.
I felt that with the Wii and the Wii series Nintendo was doing the bare minimum they could get away with. I think subconsciously most of us thought that, even if you are a big fan of the Wii Series games. The reason I think that is with Move we all assumed it was doomed because they wouldn't have Nintendo's games and the cost would be too high and Kinect was even more doomed because it had all the above plus it didn't work worth a ****. What we were really saying is that Wii Sports and Wii Fit and all those are at the low end of the spectum. If you released product that was LESS than that you were doomed to failure. Casuals will eat up the Nintendo stuff but this is more or less the worst product you could get away with.
Well I have a feeling that we can't really seperate our own tastes and that the threshold of what is or isn't acceptable to casuals is a lot lower than we think. For casuals Wii Sports is not the threshold. They will gladly accept less. I think what it really is is that Nintendo's Wii series is the minimum that WE will accept. We'll enjoy Wii Sports and Wii Fit but really couldn't enjoy less than that. So Sony or MS doing a lesser version of the Wii seems like worthless junk in our eyes. We're confusing our minimum standards for that of everyone. We see Nintendo's usage of motion control and figure that nothing less than that would be acceptable. We're probably wrong and that's why the Kinect is succeeding when we don't think it should.
When Nintendo talked about their games being for everyone they weren't kidding. I thought it meant dumbing down core games so that casuals like them too. No, what they did was take casual games and bring them up to a level where core gamers can get some enjoyment from them too. Sony and MS are not doing that.
^ This post was FOUR YEARS in the making. You could’ve saved us a lot of TRASHBAGS starting in 2006, longtime traditional pre-tendo jackass. Hope you enjoy replying and whining with brand new members for the remainder of the year. THE END
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: vudu on January 30, 2011, 03:26:49 PM
Maybe this is a stupid question, but have any Kinect games come out since the launch of the device? I haven't been paying close attention, but I honestly can't think of a single notable release.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 30, 2011, 04:04:01 PM
I'm not sure how Kinect is gonna do going forward. Only 2 games have sold any amount worth mentioning (Kinect Sports & Dance Central), but there are games on the way. Ubisoft has 3 coming, MS has a few and I'm sure there are atleast a dozen or so more that have been announced somewhere that don't have any specific release date yet.
I don't think too many Japanese devs are even thinking about Kinect at the moment, so it's up to the Euro and US devs to carry the peripheral.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on January 30, 2011, 08:38:58 PM
I'm not sure how Kinect is gonna do going forward. Only 2 games have sold any amount worth mentioning (Kinect Sports & Dance Central), but there are games on the way. Ubisoft has 3 coming, MS has a few and I'm sure there are atleast a dozen or so more that have been announced somewhere that don't have any specific release date yet.
I don't think too many Japanese devs are even thinking about Kinect at the moment, so it's up to the Euro and US devs to carry the peripheral.
Hasn't Kinectamals sold decently? Really there are only 3 or 4 decent games for Kinect, Dance Central, that fitness game, Kinect Sports, and Kinectamals.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on January 30, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
Maybe this is a stupid question, but have any Kinect games come out since the launch of the device? I haven't been paying close attention, but I honestly can't think of a single notable release.
One of them was actually the deal of the day on Amazon today.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on January 31, 2011, 06:10:36 AM
Looks like SSX might be making it's way over to Kinect in the near future.
MS has registered 2 new domains with the following addresses www.ssxkinect.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/ssxkinect.com) and www.kinectssx.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/kinectssx.com)
not a confirmation of anything, but definitely some bread crumbs hopefully leading to an announcement of some sort.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 01, 2011, 01:36:41 PM
What is Gunstringer? Gunstringer is a Kinect game from Twisted Pixel, developer of 'Splosion Man and Comic Jumper. It looks quite different than the other Kinect games we've seen so far.
The Gunstringer What type of game is it? It's a cross between a platformer and a shooter starring a skeleton cowboy that you puppeteer with your hands. There appears to be a lot of on-rails shooting sequences. The action on screen is supposed to be a puppet show, complete with an audience cheering you on.
What's the story? Somebody did The Gunstringer wrong, and he's gonna make 'em pay. It's a Western revenge story inspired by "A Fistful of Dollars."
How do the Kinect controls work? Based on the trailer, we know that you'll be holding your hands out in front of you as if you were controlling a marionette. Looks like you'll also be mimicking actions like spinning your revolver. It's unclear at this time how shooting is handled.
Will Gunstringer be a retail or downloadable game? Twisted Pixel isn't revealing this, yet. All of the developer's previous releases have been downloadable from Xbox Live Arcade. We know there are multiple downloadable Kinect games in the works from various developers, but so far Kinect software is only available at retail.
Is there multiplayer? Looks like there is a cooperative mode where two players shoot at enemies in on-rails sequences.
When's it coming out? Twisted Pixel hasn't announced a release date for Gunstringer yet.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: nickmitch on February 10, 2011, 05:00:40 PM
It sounds exactly like that one Disney Channel Original Movie about that house that was also Peg from Married with Children and also Leela from Futurama.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 09, 2011, 01:50:53 PM
Kinect Set Guinness World Record for "fastest selling consumer electronics product" http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Press/archive/2011/0308-Ten-Million-Kinects (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/Press/archive/2011/0308-Ten-Million-Kinects)
Quote
Following one of the biggest launches in consumer electronics history, Kinect for Xbox 360 continued its momentum in 2011, reaching 10 million Kinect sensors sold [read: shipped] worldwide to date. Not only were sensor sales an overwhelming success, but Kinect drove significant game sales with more than 10 million standalone Kinect games sold[also read: shipped] worldwide to date.
In a nod to the recent sales success of Kinect, Guinness World Records has officially named Kinect for Xbox 360 the fastest-selling consumer electronics device, which sold an average of 133,333 units per day for a total of eight million units in its first 60 days between November 4, 2010 and January 3, 2011. The record confirmation comes just after the latest release of the Guinness World Records 2011 Gameris Edition, which features dedicated sections to Kinect.
So Kinect games sold shipped 1:1 with the hardware.... that makes sense. Not the best attach ratio, but no point in buying a Kinect and have no software to use it with.
But 10 million units available for purchase (and most of them already in homes) must make MS happy.
Also recent posting show that MS is just now hiring for the early development phase of the NeXbox, so it looks like MS had everything riding on Kinect as it needs to carry the system for the next 2 years if that job posting is to be believed.
So where are all the Kinect games at MS!?
edit: [my notes]
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 09, 2011, 02:02:53 PM
Record, BS. It even says it is shipped, so I don't think it can count.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 09, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
I added the shipped
I probably should have mentioned that. IGN confirms it's sold to retailers, not to consumers. Also a few months back MS said in a PR that they would only report "shipped" numbers from here on out to avoid confusion.
Microsoft today announced it has now shipped 10 million Kinect units worldwide to retailers - not sold to consumers - since launch in November. The company also said it shipped over 10 million Kinect first and third-party software titles to date.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 09, 2011, 02:51:31 PM
It was sold to retailers (not consumers). So it isn't lying if you look at it that way. Although there has to be some consumer demand or else retailers wouldn't be stocking up on so many of them this many months after its launch. I think demand could stall if the software support doesn't keep pace, and that seems to be what is happening...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on March 12, 2011, 10:02:01 AM
It's only 10a.m but a friend and I did some baking after waking and now after all that cooking we're both too lazy to get up and get the remote. Just thought how awesome it be if his Kinect controlled the T.V. Microsoft is trying to do that, and hopefully it happens soon, like today would be great. ;) Teleportation through the Nexbox would also be great cuz I don't feel like walking the 5 blocks back home...
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 21, 2011, 02:17:40 PM
This may not exactly be Kinect related as it's more GFWL related, but i didn't see a thread for it and didn't want to make a new one. They were using Kinect movements in the video, so there is enough connection to just post it here.
This is Microsoft's vision for WGX aka the Windows Gaming eXperience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPYdgy35KA
I've never really used GFWL outside of a few games that I've played that used it (Batman: AA & AoE III) so I don't have much experience with the service. I just keep hearing that it's broken (they only offer about 40-60 different games total last I checked) and MS saying how they are trying to improve the experience. OTOH I've had excellent experience using Steam from chat and online multi to keeping my video drivers and games upto date.
So what does everyone think of MS's vision of PC gaming future?
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 21, 2011, 03:33:26 PM
That was pretty stupid, IMO. I don't care about PC gaming in general, but I did notice that the video pretty much reveals that Halo 3 will come out for the PC, and will work with Kinect (at least that's the impression that I got).
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stogi on March 21, 2011, 06:08:24 PM
There's a hack out that allows a jailbroken PS3 to use a kinect.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: oohhboy on March 21, 2011, 06:20:12 PM
The only game I have that uses GFWL is Dawn of War 2 and it's broken. It shits it's pants auto updating and I can't be fucked fixing it. When it was "working" everything about it was opaque and you still had to run steam(A superior program) in the background, but it handled everything steam did, but worse. Voices are mangled/distorted, lags, bad match making, loses connection to server more often than Bnet(Better, no where near steam good). GFWL is obviously windows only, which is a backwards thing these days and even if they offered it for Mac, I wouldn't take it. Stacks on top of any other client/drm without offering anything good in return.
MS can take it's gaming Future and SHOVEL (http://www.moviequotes.com/fullquote.cgi?qnum=45614) it.
That said, Mac App Store isn't any better. Overpriced and does nothing for the customer. You might as well just buy direct from the developer if you can. I would stay away from it like it's the plague.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 21, 2011, 08:03:01 PM
The Mac App Store is certainly better than what you described GFWL as, in that it's not at all broken. I'd prefer Steam, but neither Aspyr nor Feral support it, and I'd much rather go with Apple's DRM than Aspyr's proprietary system.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Stratos on March 22, 2011, 05:15:19 AM
This may not exactly be Kinect related as it's more GFWL related, but i didn't see a thread for it and didn't want to make a new one. They were using Kinect movements in the video, so there is enough connection to just post it here.
This is Microsoft's vision for WGX aka the Windows Gaming eXperience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPYdgy35KA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBPYdgy35KA)
I've never really used GFWL outside of a few games that I've played that used it (Batman: AA & AoE III) so I don't have much experience with the service. I just keep hearing that it's broken (they only offer about 40-60 different games total last I checked) and MS saying how they are trying to improve the experience. OTOH I've had excellent experience using Steam from chat and online multi to keeping my video drivers and games upto date.
So what does everyone think of MS's vision of PC gaming future?
Dude, that video got 299 likes, 8,502 dislike. LOL
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ian Sane on March 22, 2011, 12:29:17 PM
It's funny to think of MS having a vision for the future of PC gaming when MS is largely responsible for killing PC gaming. The Xbox changed PC gaming by getting PC developers on board with consoles. Now most PC games are multiplatform releases where the consoles are the target platform.
GFWL feels like a token effort because that's really what it is. Microsoft has the PC industry sewn up thanks to Windows. They don't need games to get you to buy a PC. But they do need games to get you to buy an Xbox 360. So I think it's clear where their priorities lie. If GFWL truly succeeded then it would eat into the Xbox 360 market but the Xbox 360 does not eat into the Windows market.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 16, 2011, 12:29:14 PM
MS to serve the "Harcore" with Kinect @ E3 2011 http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-13-kinect-ms-to-serve-hardcore-at-e3 (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-13-kinect-ms-to-serve-hardcore-at-e3)
Quote
At least 10 non-sequel Kinect games will be announced at trade show E3 next month, Eurogamer can reveal.
One source told us these games "won't be obvious". Another source said Microsoft is expected to "serve the hardcore" at E3 with its Kinect announcements.
This is in addition to planned announcements of sequels to Kinect games, Eurogamer sources have indicated.
Rare will unveil Kinect Sports 2, set for release Christmas 2011, Eurogamer understands.
Rare is also hard at work on a second Kinect game, although this is under wraps. We do know, however, that this game is not associated with any of Rare's established characters, such as Banjo.
They also mention an exclusive Dance Central 2 (did that ever come out for another system?) A previous Kinect dev has 2 more pieces of software to unveil and MS has started a new studio focused on family entertainment (no, it's not Rare) called MGS Family.
Quote
Microsoft plans to triple the number of games available for Kinect by the end of 2011.
Meanwhile, Eurogamer has heard an open world driving game called Forza World is in development at UK developer Playground Games, helmed by ex-Codemasters racing studio executive producer Gavin Raeburn.
there are more details on upcoming/expected MS/Kinect announcements @ the link.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 01:50:26 PM
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ceric on June 06, 2011, 11:47:40 AM
The Star Wars game looks pretty basic in a way. Sort of interesting concepts.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 06, 2011, 11:52:56 AM
The motion sensing is also kinda broken.
It would be a much better game with Move & WiiMotion+ How immersive can a lightsaber game be when you don't hold anything in your hand to act as your lightsaber?
You have to wonder why a starwars lightsaber game has never come to the Wii when it has been screaming for one since it was revealed. It actually would have been a good marketing tool for M+ back in the day too.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: Ceric on June 06, 2011, 12:11:28 PM
It would be a much better game with Move & WiiMotion+ How immersive can a lightsaber game be when you don't hold anything in your hand to act as your lightsaber?
You have to wonder why a starwars lightsaber game has never come to the Wii when it has been screaming for one since it was revealed. It actually would have been a good marketing tool for M+ back in the day too.
Ironically enough though all that could be solved by having an enhanced mode that ask you to hold a toy lightsaber.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: SixthAngel on June 06, 2011, 12:50:09 PM
The swordfighting looks like a big step down from Resort.
Title: Re: Microsoft's Xbox Kinect - Nov 4th 2010
Post by: MaryJane on June 06, 2011, 04:04:37 PM
The swordfighting looks like a big step down from Resort.
That did look bad, but Ghost Recon was cool, aiming with one fist and opening the other to fire, the customization of the weapons, etc. There's still a ways to go before that is a 'mainstream' control scheme, but it looks promising.
Then there's the voice integration. The first thing I thought of when I saw that was; 'why didn't Nintendo think of that?' With the WiiSpeak you would think such game integration was almost obvious, yet classic Nintendo dragging their feet.
Beyond the 'in your face Nintendo' aspect, the TV aspect of Xbox is going to massive. There are three major players in the software market right now; Microsoft, Google, and Apple. All three of those companies are trying to dominate each market, and expand into new ones, most especially the TV market. Google and Apple have their TV devices which are popular despite their limitations, and now MS steps in and says to the millions of people who have a 360; 'don't worry, we got you covered.' Why would anyone with an Xbox have a cable box if they can get the same content (and more) from their Xbox? If MS can get enough people on board (an unfortunately large if) MS may have created the one box to rule them all. Or at least, the software structure that it can pass on to multiple devices.
