Topic: Flaws in Great Games

[NWR_insanolord]

We all have games that we'd consider among the best we've ever played, but as is always said, no game is perfect. Even the best games have certain flaws that stand out among the greatness. What are some such flaws you've seen in games that you love?


For me, as I was playing through Super Metroid recently, I was struck by a couple things in a game I'd otherwise consider one of my all-time favorites. First off, the platforming really doesn't feel as good as you'd want it to. Even with all the upgrades, it never felt great. Also, a much more glaring problem, the weapon switching system was just awful. Having to cycle through all the options got more and more clunky over the course of the game.

[Adrock]

I considered making a thread like this though it was more general.

1. Any game without a "Restart from last checkpoint" option on the pause menu screen. Sometimes I know I screwed something up and I don't want to have to die just to restart where I was.

2. Any game with long cutscenes without a "Skip Cutscene" option as well as rewind, forward, and pause controls. This would be especially helpful on subsequent play-throughs.

3. Quick Time Events can die in a fire.

4. Fetch quests, particularly at the end of a game, can also die in a fire.

5. Gameplay bullets ≠ cutscene bullets.

Specific Flaws (some are nitpicking):
1. In Ocarina of Time, Kaepora Gaebora's "Do you want to hear what I said again?" No and go away. To be more specific, he's so long-winded and rarely says anything of real value. The default option should be whatever allows the player to continue rather than repeat.

2. In Final Fantasy VII, you can't skip the summon animation. Final Fantasy IX only shows the full one at random which is better but still bogus.

3. Swimming in Resident Evil Revelaitons.

4. Sinking like a rock in the Great Bay stage in Super Smash Bros. Melee. Additionally, hit detection is off at times. It was a launch window title, this gets a pass.

5. Athena's characterization doesn't make sense at the end of God of War III. If the evils from Pandora's Box corrupted the gods when Kratos opened it at the end of the first God of War, Athena's personality is way off in the next two games. Characterization in the series is a problem. Kratos never evolves as a character. They tried a little bit with his relationship with Pandora toward the middle to end of God of War III, but it felt too late at that point. Also, the entirety of the hades stage of God of War.

[NWR_insanolord]

The worst part of the Kaepora Gaebora thing is it defaulting to you saying you want him to repeat everything. That's a great example of what I'm talking about.

[Oblivion]

In general: PC games that force me to restart the whole damn program to see my changes in performance. I'm looking at you, Amnesia.

[Ian Sane]

I agree with the Super Metroid and OoT examples.  Another OoT flaw I found was that shortly after you leave the forest you have to return to it to get Saria's song.  This is after the game just emphasized that you were effectively leaving your home forever and you return like, what, the next day?  There also was no real logic for going back there other than Navi nagging you to do so.  It's sloppy design very early on in a game that could claim to be the best ever at the time it was released.

Metroid Prime 2's final boss requires you aim upwards which is damn near impossible to do well in the original Gamecube version.  I liked the control scheme of the Cube games because the game was designed around them.  You didn't need free aim because they designed everything around the z-targeting... until the last boss of the MP2.  It's like some other dev that thought Metroid was some Halo clone designed the last boss.

The Super Mario Galaxy games are fantastic except they're freakin' Wii games so Nintendo has to fugger up the controls of course.  For the most part it's okay except each game has some levels where you ride an animal that control entirely with motion control and are unplayable garbage.  Who snuck this shovelware gimmick game into arguably the greatest 3D platformer ever made?  Unfortunately for almost every first party Wii game that does not support the classic controller you can say "great game except for the damn controls".  I typically want re-releases to remain true to the original but in the case of the Wii's library I look forward to a future when its best games are re-released with normal controls and everyone looks back at waggle as some embarrassing fad from our past like Laserdisc arcade games.

[azeke]

I could never understand people who hate Wii so much, their bile and confusion bends reality and even gives them some kind physical disability because there is no other explanation as to why they deny themselves of even trying to handle the simplest things that 6 year olds who start from clean slate can do no problem.

[ShyGuy]

Triforce quest in Wind Waker.

'Roided-out character models in Batman Arkham Asylum.

[azeke]

'Roided-out character models in Batman Arkham Asylum.

That is a flaw alright, it's probably main reason i can't even start thinking of AA as great game to begin with.

 That and overall shallownes of everything.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Shake to roll.

You can work it out.

[Ian Sane]

I could never understand people who hate Wii so much, their bile and confusion bends reality and even gives them some kind physical disability because there is no other explanation as to why they deny themselves of even trying to handle the simplest things that 6 year olds who start from clean slate can do no problem.

The second the player jumps off a cliff by mistake because he was merely changing his seating position on the couch that indicates that the game controls like ****.  The problem with motion control is that there is no clear distinction of when you're actually intending to do something and when you're not.  With a normal controller I can hover my thumb over the A button, rest it on the A button, move the controller however I want and unless I actually press the A button the action assigned to the A button does not go off.  With motion control I can literally pick up the controller and is that a command or not?  Who knows?  I had times playing Wii Sports golf and my character swung as I got into a golfer position to start my swing.  There were times in Skyward Sword where I tried to swing a sword like a normal person would where you raise your arm back and then swing it forward and the game thought my setup was the swing itself.  I never had an issue on any previous videogame system ever where buttons just went off because I moved the controller to get into a better position.  Sitting still like a robot the whole time just so that the controller doesn't misfire isn't any fun.  And for what?  90% of the time it was a glorified button press assigned to a "shake".  So it's the exact same thing as before but only now it's less precise?  That's nonsense and only ignorant rubes with no prior experience playing videogames were impressed with it.

Would you trust airplanes to be piloted with motion control?  No, because there would be fatal plane crash every day.  But they do trust airplanes to clear buttons and switches, stuff where there is no doubt when something is on or off.  A game should have precise control and it makes no sense to take away precision that had been in place for 20 years and replace it with something inconsistent.

Super Mario Galaxy is an awesome game but there times where I died because I didn't keep the controller 100% still while playing and Mario did some spin jump off the edge.  It's like playing a game while sitting on bubble wrap and if one bubble pops by mistake it's game over.

[MagicCow64]

Every time Wii controls up, someone points to the straw man of accidentally jumping to your death due to unintentional motion input. This has never, ever happened to me. There are plenty of examples of janky motion controls on the console, but the shake inputs in NSMBWii, the Galaxy games, DKCR, Warioland Shake It never once killed me. You can argue that they would be better served by button presses but whenever I see the accidental death complaint I imagine an 8-year-old sitting on a couch and jittering uncontrollably while playing.

Which leads me to my first entry:

-Shake controls in DKCR. I actually had no issue with them at all during the main game and mirror mode. But when I started on the time trials, where you basically have to roll the entire time, it became clear that it would be an exercise in physical torture.

-Red Dead Redemption:Psycho wildcats. Really aggravating when you're trotting along, or trying to pick up an herb, and a maniac bobcat kills your horse and engages you in hand-to-hand combat to the death. Pretty sure that's not how they behave, unless you're trying to eat their babies alive.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Much like the 'Wii remote only' control scheme in Metroid: Other M, the 'Shake to roll' in DKCR felt egregious only because there were alternate controls schemes readily available (be it through using the nunchuck or allowing use of the Classic Controller) that would have been preferable.

It's not that the control scheme was broken, it was just that it was inferior to another scheme that should have at least been included as an option.

On a somewhat related note, it drives me mad that Nintendo don't include customisation options for buttons in their 3DS virtual console games. That fact that I can't use 'Y' to run and 'B' to jump really bums me out every time I try to play a platformer. Case and point? Super Mario Bros Deluxe, which I tried to play earlier today. Having 'B' to run and 'A' to jump made sense when the two button where horizonatally aligned, but now that the face buttons form a diamond shape it's just awkward.

'Y' to run and 'B' to jump just feels right, goddamit!

[Ian Sane]

On a somewhat related note, it drives me mad that Nintendo don't include customisation options for buttons in their 3DS virtual console games. That fact that I can't use 'Y' to run and 'B' to jump really bums me out every time I try to play a platformer. Case and point? Super Mario Bros Deluxe, which I tried to play earlier today. Having 'B' to run and 'A' to jump made sense when the two button where horizonatally aligned, but now that the face buttons form a diamond shape it's just awkward.

'Y' to run and 'B' to jump just feels right, goddamit!

One of the coolest things Nintendo ever did was that Super Game Boy let you pick if you wanted the button layout to be Y/B or B/A.  That is so damn hip it seems like it came from a different company.  Realistically all VC games should let you customize the button layout to whatever you want.  I don't understand the rationale in not doing so.

Another example of flaw in a great game: Majora's Mask's save system.  I love the game and its three day cycle allowed for some creative and cool ideas.  But that setup also made it very inflexible for when you could save, particularly since OoT let you save anywhere.  I was a teenager living with my parents at the time and their generation does not understand the concept of a save point, particularly when you have to unload the dishwasher right this second DAMMIT!  My parents wanted me to go with my dad to the lumber yard since loading up boards on the roof of a vehicle is kind of a two-man job.  Did they inform me that this compulsory assistance was on my schedule until five seconds before we were supposed to leave?  No, of course not.  And there I am in the middle of a dungeon and the only way to save is to either start over or work my way out of the dungeon to the owl statue at the beginning which would probably take like ten minutes to do.  So I just left the game paused for like two hours hoping no one would stupidly turn it off.  Thankfully they did not but just some sort of quick save would have prevented that whole ordeal.

[Pixelated Pixies]

Another example of flaw in a great game: Majora's Mask's save system.  I love the game and its three day cycle allowed for some creative and cool ideas.  But that setup also made it very inflexible for when you could save, particularly since OoT let you save anywhere.

I adored Majora's Mask, but even I'll agree that the save system could be improved...say in a 3DS remake for instance.

[Mop it up]

The first thing that came to mind when reading the thread title is Xenoblade. There's a lot to like about that game, but it can sure be tough to manage sometimes. The lack of a bestiary makes it tough to figure out which enemies drop which items, it's tough to remember where everyone who gave you a sidequest is located, the limited inventory means you can't keep all the loot you find, and probably some other little things like that I forgot. I really hope they address all this in X.

The party AI was dumb as rocks also, but I guess that's so battles don't complete themselves.

[Oblivion]

it's tough to remember where everyone who gave you a sidequest is located

And this is a big deal because? 99% of the time they reward you immediately. If you need to find the quest giver for whatever reason if you go to the town in the main menu it will give you a big spider web map of all the town's NPCs and when they are active. SOmething tells me you simply haven't looked hard enough.

the limited inventory means you can't keep all the loot you find,

You must hate every single western RPG ever. Considering what other elements from WRPGs Xenoblade borrows from, this is far from a bad thing. It's designed for you to be selling your **** anyway, so you should never run out of room regardless. Once again, you aren't doing it right.

The party AI was dumb as rocks also, but I guess that's so battles don't complete themselves.

I disagree. They did what they needed to do based on the situation at hand. You're the leader, take control of the situation.

[Mop it up]

If you need to find the quest giver for whatever reason if you go to the town in the main menu it will give you a big spider web map of all the town's NPCs and when they are active. Something tells me you simply haven't looked hard enough.

The area it lists them in can be vague, and can change depending on the time. Something tells me you didn't do very many sidequests.

You must hate every single western RPG ever. Considering what other elements from WRPGs Xenoblade borrows from, this is far from a bad thing. It's designed for you to be selling your **** anyway, so you should never run out of room regardless. Once again, you aren't doing it right.

I don't know if I've played a "western RPG," but that does sound like a problem with them. The issue is that many items are used for sidequests, and money is easy to come by, so it's better to keep everything in case it's used for a quest. I never know what gems I might want to craft at some point either. Once again, you aren't doing it right.

They did what they needed to do based on the situation at hand. You're the leader, take control of the situation.

I can't take control of them, just get basic commands like "Come here" or "Attack this." I'd rather get to select their actions too, or have other players control them.

[Luigi Dude]

They did what they needed to do based on the situation at hand. You're the leader, take control of the situation.

I can't take control of them, just get basic commands like "Come here" or "Attack this." I'd rather get to select their actions too, or have other players control them.

Yeah, the AI partners to me was the biggest flaw in Xenoblade.  This is perfectly symbolized during the Lorithia boss fight where there's acid all around the area you fight her and your partners not only run into the acid, but they fucking stay in it even though it's draining their HP.  It's like, come on, the AI should at least know to get out of that **** once it starts hurting them but nope, they just stay there like everything fine.

[magicpixie]

Bullet sponges in the Uncharted series.  Ghost mom in Bioshock Infinite(though, whether that one is a great game is up for debate).  Flood in Halo games.  On-foot sections in Rogue Squadron 3.  Ending to Mass Effect 3.  Infinite spawning enemies from the old CoD games.  Jumping on Xen.

Oh, and escort missions.

[Shaymin]

Looking at my three favorite games ever:

Earthbound - Takes a while to build momentum, monkey sequence basically justifies the player's guide coming with the game.

Chrono Trigger - Unintuitive boss fights, DS version's added stuff is either annoying or connects to the game that ruined the story.

Super Mario Bros 3 - Repetitive bosses and water levels are annoying.

[Oblivion]

If you need to find the quest giver for whatever reason if you go to the town in the main menu it will give you a big spider web map of all the town's NPCs and when they are active. Something tells me you simply haven't looked hard enough.

The area it lists them in can be vague, and can change depending on the time. Something tells me you didn't do very many sidequests.

You must hate every single western RPG ever. Considering what other elements from WRPGs Xenoblade borrows from, this is far from a bad thing. It's designed for you to be selling your **** anyway, so you should never run out of room regardless. Once again, you aren't doing it right.

I don't know if I've played a "western RPG," but that does sound like a problem with them. The issue is that many items are used for sidequests, and money is easy to come by, so it's better to keep everything in case it's used for a quest. I never know what gems I might want to craft at some point either. Once again, you aren't doing it right.

They did what they needed to do based on the situation at hand. You're the leader, take control of the situation.

I can't take control of them, just get basic commands like "Come here" or "Attack this." I'd rather get to select their actions too, or have other players control them.

ok

[Mop it up]

2. Any game with long cutscenes without a "Skip Cutscene" option as well as a rewind, forward, and pause controls. This would be especially helpful on subsequent play-throughs.

It's crazy how I agree with all your general points, but this is probably the biggest one. I don't usually like cutscenes in general though, as I want to play a game, not watch it.

Another example of flaw in a great game: Majora's Mask's save system.

Try playing it on the GameCube where freeze glitches are present and can happen during any loading scene. Now that's unpleasant. In any case, that game has more problems than just that one, though it is one of the bigger ones. I'm not typically into remakes, but Majora's Mask is one of the few games where I'd like to see one. If they streamline all the issues with that game then it would be a lot less tedious and be a better, more fun game.

[pokepal148]

OOT did so little with the time travel gimmick it isn't even funny.
"Hey here's hyrule 7 years from now except the only changes are a few characters moved around and a few characters grew up because we bothered to make models for them as adults, oh and we messed with the lake a bit but you can fix that."

The golden spider hunt is just monotonous and boring as well,
Skyward sword's timeshift stones and oracle of ages both did much more with the time travel mechanic.

[Adrock]

Time travel in Ocarina of Time is deeply flawed due to the lack of established rules, but there's no need to get into that again.

It's crazy how I agree with all your general points, but this is probably the biggest one. I don't usually like cutscenes in general though, as I want to play a game, not watch it.

Sometimes I don't mind if it's after a tough boss and I need time to relax. Still, I find that many games these days totally abuse cutscene usage. We're not really bound by the limitations of technology so I wish more developers would work exposition into actual gameplay. In cases where that's not possible, keep cutscenes under a minute.

[Ian Sane]

Let's pick on OoT some more.  In the future Zora's Domain is frozen.  So you unfreeze the king and beat the dungeon and it just says some nonsense about how "in time" Zora's Domain will thaw.  It doesn't happen in the game?  I save the Zoras and yet they're still stuck in the ice?  They couldn't just have some cutscene and then have a thawed Zora's Domain?  It isn't like there is no unfrozen version of it.  I can explore it in the past at any time!