Topic: war in iraq

[Gamer Donkey]

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Arabs are becoming more anti-American, and why wouldn't they. When WWII started, the whole of the western world (yeah, America was even before it was involved in the war) was anti-German. This is not new, the Arabs are becoming anti-American because we recognized the need of national and world security and invaded Iraq, a member of the Arab League.

President Bush did not avoid diplomacy, in fact this could not be further from the truth. President Bush has been working with the UN on this for an extended period of time, since the beginning of the his term (and President Clinton, who never acted on anything concerning it, and President Bush before that). Diplomacy was not avoided. Period.

Yes, many Arab nations already did hate America. But Going through this war is causing more hate. Whether or not we are trying to control the Middle East, many Arabs believe we are. Maybe W. Bush could've had some talks with these renewed America-haters before we went to war.

What work with the UN? I don't call pushing a resolution to approve war into the security council "working with." Maybe you could tell me what diplomatic attempts were made by W. He simply ignored American approval in other countries (great foreign policy) and called all diplomatic efforts "inaction."

[kennyb27]

The resolutions were based on the fact that Saddam had to disarm, this is called "diplomatic efforts," just in case u needed a definition.  The resolutions were not passed to go to war, certainly they suggested war in case of lack of action by Saddam; however, they were based on the fact that Saddam needed to disarm.

[The Omen]

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God help your soul. That was major BS. Remember before the war they were saying that like 4000 Iraqi troops were surredering? Yeah they did surrender, wait now they didn't their giving the Americans a run for their money.

You are quite moronic, aren't you?  A run for their money?  The U.S. is losing 1 out of every 1,100 troops.  The Iraqi's are losing half their Republican guard before we even engage them on the ground.  The marines have moved 4 hundred miles in 14 day's.  Baghdad is surrounded, the regimes demise is approaching, and yeah, they put up one hell of a fight with some disgusting war crimes for about 2 day's. Now their figured out, and they have no answers.  What an army!  

[oohhboy]

Wasn't disarment part of the original cease-fire signed? Since saddam had techincally failed to do so, he has broken that very cease-fire. Comes to think of it, did the peace process even get past the cease fire?

[manunited4eva22]

1) This is not a war, it is a conflict (war requires declaring war) And just so you dont get into that is illegal, only 4 wars out of the 180 something conflicts of the last 50 years were actually wars.
2) Congress approved the use of force overwhelmingly last year

Not illegal, not a war, get the facts straight.

[nolimit19]

i cant believe we are allowed to talk about this here....i thought there were supposed to be no polotics.......i think that is lame anyways cuz we need to talk about such matters........i was talking about the war on the magicbox forums.....so many american haters there that just make up random facts from conspiracy theory web pages that are sponsered by sadaam.....i have read any of the posts here, but i am for the war, and i will tell u why........we are part of a democratic system.....and that theoretically means we elect the person that we trust the most to make big descions for us......now bush obviously cant reveal all details about everything to us because that would compromise his sources.....not only when it comes to retaining info, but maybe their lives.....now america isnt perfect, and they have made their fair share of mistakes, but i think that if what bush says is true.....this war is the right thing to do....and i dont think he is lying.....everyone is like o its about oil and bush just is a war monger.....and all though that may sound all good.....logically it makes no sense.....this war is quite unpopular and bush is making no friends by doing this......so he isnt gaining poularity.....that leaves u with only one reason to be against the war really....and that is if u think its about oil....and i really really doubt america can get away with just taking over iraq and taking all their oil.....and bush selling it for a huge profit.....its not going to happen.....at best, and i mean at the extreme best, oil prices will lower because iraq is freed, and supply and demand will drive prices down. but bush has really nothing to gain from that.....i mean everyone says he is a big liar and all that crap, but i think u are confusing him with our last president that lied to us under oath.....i dont think there is any reason not to trust him at this point, but thats just my personal view.....and by the way, this "war" or conflict is leagal under un agreement, which was signed by everyone including france, us, and iraq....the only reason france is against the war is because they have millions invested in iraqi oil fields....u havent heard any real goverment officials of any country say the war is illegal, in fact there are a few countries that planed on sending troops, but didnt after mass protests so that they could remain in office. dont get me wrong, war is bad, and its sad to see people die.....but sometimes it just needs to happen.....all america is doing now is looking out for its saftey.....which is the number one priority with most any country.....to say this war is illegal is wrong, and to say it is unjustified has yet to be proven.....but i dont really think it can be. if i remember correctly, it was the un who found the links between al quaida and sadaam...not the us.....and its still important to say that the only 5 or so countries that oppose the war either have huge investments in iraq, or north korea, which just hates america......i am done for now....

[The Omen]

  This just in- France was supporting Iraq with weapons and giving them advice on how to 'last through the battle', so a diplomatic solution can be had.   Obviously, France and Russia have definate monetary interests in Iraq, which is why their both 'talking Iraq through this ordeal'.  

How surprising.  You had to know there was something up France's sleeve, those punk's.  And how could anyone ever trust Russia?  Please....

[ThePerm]

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There is alot of better democracies out there besides America. Like Canada and Greece for example are a few of many. Why move to Iraq? Just move up to Canada atleast they don't start wars with people like the blood thirsty American government. No I am not Canadian either.  

what are you talkign about greece isnt a grea democracy! they banned video games for several months! They didnt even ask the people.... they just did it. Boy did those people get angry.

ok lets go on the topics one by one.

Bush: George W. Bush gets alot of flack because alot of people didnt like his tight assed father. This one however i believe is a little different. He shows great flexibility compared to alot of presidents. When we dont like bush because of his father we are genetically steriotyping him.  For all you foreigners who dont understand how america works. We have three branches of government judiciary, legislative, and executive.
we have a system called checks and balances. What this does is allow for each branch to check to see if the other is overstepping its power. I wouldnt fear Bush he's not a tyrant. In fact it would be incredibly hard to become a tyrant in this country. We have very short terms compared to many countries. each senator and representative has 2 year terms with no term limits. Justices however have a life term but corruption isnt really a factor in the job they do and their job is to interpret the constitutionality of law. the Chief Executive officer of the country has a 4 year term with a maximum ability to have 2 terms. They can only have 2 terms if we vote for him twice. Which probably wont happen because by the time hes done we will want a better economy so we will probably elect some democrat similar to clinton after bush. Heck the way things are going
Hillary Clinton may just be the next president. For patterns iv noticed Republicans are great for war, democrats are great for the economy....anyways.... as long as its not liberman....darn censorship and policies...

oil: This isn't a good enough reason to invade iraq, although it will ahve some benifits for our economy.

al jazeera: Al jazeera doesnt have any competition i nthe arab world and is widely suspected to be entirely anti american and basically just there as anti american propaganda. I remember there were soime jokes on fox news saying something to the extent "man al jazeera needs a competitor, maybe then they'll keep honest". In the arab news world there is only one source which is never a good thing. In europe and in north america there are severral news sources. Sometimes i flip the channel to telemundo or univision to see if their reporting. I onlyu know a bit of spanish but its ebnough to understand the news because of all the buzzwords......hell i should wwatch spanish news mroe often..it may be a goo way to learn the language.

[baberg]

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Originally posted by: The Omen
This just in- France was supporting Iraq with weapons and giving them advice on how to 'last through the battle', so a diplomatic solution can be had.   Obviously, France and Russia have definate monetary interests in Iraq, which is why their both 'talking Iraq through this ordeal'.  

How surprising.  You had to know there was something up France's sleeve, those punk's.  And how could anyone ever trust Russia?  Please....

You had better have a source for that information, The Omen.  I cannot find any reference to that on CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, Reuters, or the AP.  Either give me a source or I will not believe this.

EDIT: checked more sources and removed harsh language

[ThePerm]

actually iv heard that few times myself...on the radio on msnbc and on fox news

[baberg]

I would think that there would be much more information on this subject if it were actually reported by major news organizations.  For instance, when Syria was believed to be selling night-vision equpiment to Iraq, it was all over the news for a full day (and can still be found here)  But France?  Especially given the US' unwarranted hatred for France right now, I would expect every news agency available to be posting about this, yet I curiously cannot find any.

Incidentally, you should all watch Canadian Bacon and read Manufacturing Consent (though MC can be a bit boring at times).  Both describe how the media is used by governments to alter public perception.  Another good read is a recent Onion article that, while satiric, really emphasizes a viewpoint not often heard.  Another good movie is Wag the Dog, but most people have already seen that one.

[kennyb27]

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                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Originally posted by: The Omen
                   This just in- France was supporting Iraq with weapons and giving them advice on how to 'last through
                   the battle', so a diplomatic solution can be had. Obviously, France and Russia have definate
                   monetary  interests in Iraq, which is why their both 'talking Iraq through this ordeal'.

                   How surprising. You had to know there was something up France's sleeve, those punk's. And how
                   could anyone ever trust Russia? Please....
                   --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You had better have a source for that information, The Omen. I cannot find any reference to that on CNN, Foxnews, MSNBC, Reuters, or the AP. Either give me a source or I will not believe this.

Actually, in the early 90's France went into Iraq and built a nuclear power plant for them.  Obviously this is a bit far from the actual bombs, but its the basic technology.  Also, France did provide Iraq with supplies for many of their weapons that we have found.
And the incident with Russia is not with the actual Russian government, but instead is with the Russian Mob.  However, when I say the "Russian Mob" don't think some rogue group.  It is believed the the world bank that the Russian Mob owns abou 70%-80% of the businesses in Russia.  Also, many of the former government members alledgedly belong to the mob.  And, actually, the head of the part of their government that deals with Plutonium, Uranium, etc. alledgedly is a member of the mob...So, obviously, that's not good.

[The Omen]

  It was on MSNBC last night.  

[nolimit19]

greece isnt democratic at all....out lawing video games....seriously when i heard that, i was appalled...not just as a gamer, but as a human being. and canada is horrible....they make all health care the same price....they are practically comunist...there is no incentive to be a good doctor, and as a result a lot of them practice in the us....i dont now about this forum, but over at the magicbox all anyone has talked about is how bias the us media is...no i am not saying it is perfect, but whoever tells u some crap that greece or canada is a great democracy lied and lied hard.

[baberg]

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Originally posted by: kennyb27
Actually, in the early 90's France went into Iraq and built a nuclear power plant for them.  Obviously this is a bit far from the actual bombs, but its the basic technology.

...which Iraq is allowed to have under the United Nations Non-Proliferation Treaty, specifically Article IV, and France is fully justified in giving them this information from Article IV Paragraph 2.  It is not a crime nor is it morally wrong to give a nation peaceful nuclear energy.  But such a facility is necessarily large and cannot be very well hidden (less so if France helped set the facility up for them).  It is also a huge step from generating power to producing fissionable materials for use in weapons.

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Also, France did provide Iraq with supplies for many of their weapons that we have found.

From what I've heard, most of the Iraqi weapons are Soviet-made AK-47s.  I could be wrong, though.  And it should also be noted that selling weapons to other nations is hardly restricted to France-Iraq, since the US has been supplying Israel with nearly $10 billion in weapons.

I'm sorry for ranting so much, but this manufactured hatred of France is really getting on my nerves.  The US media has encouraged this hatred for the French ever since they had the nerve to threaten to exercise their vetoing rights on the Security Council.  I went out to a bar last week with a friend who is French.  We know the guitarist who was playing that night, and he says "I'd like to say hi to my friend in the audience.  He's from France, but don't hold that against him".  That was met with boos and jeers.  It's unbelievable.

And don't get me started on "Freedom Fries"...

[The Omen]

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I'm sorry for ranting so much, but this manufactured hatred of France is really getting on my nerves. The US media has encouraged this hatred for the French ever since they had the nerve to threaten to exercise their vetoing rights on the Security Council.

Incorrect.  It's been going on for years.  I've been to France, and can tell you they despise americans.  The threat of veto was just the latest incident in a long line of pacifism.

 As for France selling weapons to Iraq-everyone sells arms to everyone, I agree.  However, France has the most to gain with a cease fire, as they trade with Iraq more-so than almost any country.  They get more oil than the U.S. from the region as well.  France has been backstabbing the U.S. , and they perpetuate the backlash they receive now from america.  

I don't need the U.S. media to point out the ridiculous actions of France, I can see them with my own 2 eyes.

[kennyb27]

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...which Iraq is allowed to have under the United Nations Non-Proliferation Treaty, specifically Article IV, and France is fully justified in giving them this information from Article IV Paragraph 2. It is not a crime nor is it morally wrong to give a nation peaceful nuclear energy. But such a facility is necessarily large and cannot be very well hidden (less so if France helped set the facility up for them). It is also a huge step from generating power to producing fissionable materials for use in weapons.

I never said it was illegal, I was simplcy clarifying the statement.  

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From what I've heard, most of the Iraqi weapons are Soviet-made AK-47s. I could be wrong, though. And it should also be noted that selling weapons to other nations is hardly restricted to France-Iraq, since the US has been supplying Israel with nearly $10 billion in weapons.

I wasn't speaking of the arms they carry, I was talking more about the supplies we discovered in various plants before and after the war began.  A lot of this was French made (I understand that this is probably because France and Iraq are two of the biggest trading partners of the Western to Arabic world).

[RahXephon]

simpsonfan mostly, but not entirely, how many war classes and political classes have you taken.  How many books on the subjects have you read, how many programs have you seen.  how old are you.  I mean i can tear every thing you said to shreads.  Havent you ever read hobbes, and if no, then dont post a word on war, not 1 because you dont really understand it.  same goes for anyone.  The politicians have spent their entire lives studying how to do what and when.  You probably just didnt agree.  Socrates said that all evil arises from ignorance, and I am reminded all the time that he was right when i read comments like yours.

and on religion, if you havent read aquainas or kierkregaard or Nieztshe then please hold your unfound opinions to yourself.  Your website were all comments again posted by fools who instead of finding comfort in religion, find comfort in hating it.  If there was no religion, they would have a site dedicated to hating something else.  I feel bad for you, you really should read some of these authors, your world will change if you can understand them that is, they are quite complex.  Also if you ever read real stuff on religion... IT IS IMPOSSIBLE 3000% to prove it right or wrong, absolutely cant be done, even with all the knowledge in the universe, read DesCartes.  It is something that cant be known by our minds.

To close, unless you know EXACTLY what you are saying and have researcheed it, then keep it to yourself, for it is only an opinion dressed up to look like fact.  Ex.  "Bush is not really President, we are being lied to."  Well i have no proof but it sounds true doesn't it.  Please, if you are to make a sentence you cant back up in entireity, then say "in my opinion" first.

In my opinion, war is a necessity, thus is the destiny of human nature we have built for ourselves.  We are responsible for everything any other human being has done. (read Sarte)

Books people books.  Weither i agree or not with anything doesnt matter (i agree on the war, and others), just please make your statements well grounded, otherwise all they are is jibberish and cathcy phrases (thats from Berkely or spinoza.)

These countries that hate america have good reason, but i still believe in doing what we are doing.  Why do so many people think the world can change in a day, we have already defined our human existence the first time one man killed another, it is to late to think it can change by some protests, the only thing we can do is try to be righteous inour own opinion.  the action through opinion should not belong to the common people because "the common peple are commonly wrong"(Aristotle).  It is unfortunate, yet true.  Untill we realize our fate, we can do nothing to change it.  Put your humanitarian efforts into charities, and do it annonymously, because only though this are you doing it for ONLY the right reason. (Utilitarianism)

1 last thing, about your statement that the peeople are fighting instead of wanting to be liberated.  Unless you can fully understand the logic behind there actions, and let me say you cant, then do not say if they wanted to be liberated or not, it is complete and utter ignorance.

Ignorance-the puposeful lack of knowledge

P.S. I am proud to be american, becuase i believe we are just, and there arent any better options.  Long live freedom in the hands of america.    

[JoeFalco]

Hi everyone!  I'm just another poor Yank caught up in this crazy conflict across the world who is, for the most part, uncertain what is right or wrong in all of this.  I try to find a variety of sources that take differing sides on this issue and see which one is supported by the most facts and most logical and mature reasoning.  These include the "This Modern World" website, MSNBC, Fox, local newspapers, distinguished newspapers in the US such as the New York Times and the Washington Post.  I believe it's important above all to check your sources to make sure what you know is actually the truth.

Anyway, moving on, I just learned from the Washington Post yesterday (4/4/03) that the Bush administration believes that victory has been achieved when the US forces manage to control a significant amount of Iraqi territory and have greatly reduced the power of Saddam's Baath party.  Bush, himself, only wants "nothing less than complete and final victory" but what I find fascinating is that the administration doubts that the initial US plan to liberate all of Iraq has now become more of hope that the US will be able to establish a base of operations outside of the capital Baghdad and exert control over the country from there.  At first, the Bush administration was certain that troops would be greeted as liberators but so far the only part in Iraq that has done any of that is the southern part of Iraq that is known for its opposition to Saddam's regime.

Well, time to go.  Flame away!

[RahXephon]

My one fear, Sadaam or others will use a single atomic weapon in the center of Baghdad once we get inside.  However I believe that the only real victory over an enemy is when

A)The enemy's fear is greater than their hate.
B)The enemy no longer exists.  

[JoeFalco]

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Originally posted by: RahXephon
My one fear, Sadaam or others will use a single atomic weapon in the center of Baghdad once we get inside.

Well let's hope that the US is wrong in their claim that Saddam possesses such weapons...
 

[The Omen]

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At first, the Bush administration was certain that troops would be greeted as liberators but so far the only part in Iraq that has done any of that is the southern part of Iraq that is known for its opposition to Saddam's regime.

That's because, until they're sure Saddam and his regime are gone,  greeting the coalition by celebrating would be met with execution.  Once the Iraqi people are sure they're going to be free, you'll see massive acceptance.  Think about it.  

[Gamer Donkey]

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That's because, until they're sure Saddam and his regime are gone, greeting the coalition by celebrating would be met with execution. Once the Iraqi people are sure they're going to be free, you'll see massive acceptance. Think about it.

The majority of people are glad(even if in secret)that Saddam is going down. Unfortunately many of these same people fear America is going to take over. Whether or no this is true, it has become a common thought across the Middle East. While we could not inform the Iraqis of our plans(I'm sure you heard of the leaflets getting stolen by Republican Guards), whatever they end up being, we seemed to ignore many countries who had worries about our motives. This is one big trouble I have with the war, I think Bush hurried into war ignoring how bad it reflects on us to the world. I find it hard to do this sometimes, but try to look at the US from another country. We weren't attacked by Iraq anytime in the past years, we had some rather shaky evidence showing Iraq has weapons of mass destruction,
And finally (to end this shorter than I had originally planned) the slightly hypocritical move of supporting a UN resolution by invading without UN consent.

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It is believed the the world bank that the Russian Mob owns abou 70%-80% of the businesses in Russia. Also, many of the former government members alledgedly belong to the mob. And, actually, the head of the part of their government that deals with Plutonium, Uranium, etc. alledgedly is a member of the mob...So, obviously, that's not good.

Much of the Bush administration has ties to large corporations. Bush already favors them with his tax cuts and now he has proposed an energy bill that repeals laws made to prevent another Enron fiasco(finally found a use for that word). This same bill also eases back laws restricting the export of nuclear bomb-grade uranium. I'm finding it harder and harder to trust Bush. Especially when in an ongoing debate I have with a friend, after he says Bush has done a lot good for the country, I ask, "What good things has Bush done?" and he replies,"You should find out for yourself."

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The resolutions were based on the fact that Saddam had to disarm, this is called "diplomatic efforts," just in case u needed a definition.

We had no proof Iraq hadn't disarmed. The resolutions weren't very diplomatic because they basically auto-approved war.

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we are part of a democratic system.....and that theoretically means we elect the person that we trust the most to make big descions for us

I'm not too happy about congress giving up its right to declare war, I don't find it very democratic because no matter what happened after the decision no one could have stopped Bush. And we technically didn't elect Bush, it came down to a supreme court decision in which 5 of 9 justices were diehard conservatives. I can't fathom Gore winning in that situation.

And might I add that "freedom fries" are ridiculus IMO. Okay, I'm done now. Sorry for the length.

[thecubedcanuck]

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and canada is horrible....they make all health care the same price....they are practically comunist...there is no incentive to be a good doctor, and as a result a lot of them practice in the us.

LMAO, have you ever been to Canada?
My wife is Pediatritian, and her brother is an optomotrist and they would both beg to differ.
As for communism, I remember voting every 4 years, so you may be a little off base.
We are very democratic. We are a little to liberal for my own taste and our government loves to sit on the fence but so be it.

Please try and base your comments on fact from now on instead of your overly active imagination.

[The Omen]

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I'm finding it harder and harder to trust Bush. Especially when in an ongoing debate I have with a friend, after he says Bush has done a lot good for the country, I ask, "What good things has Bush done?" and he replies,"You should find out for yourself."

I don't think any presidents really do alot of paticular good for this country, to tell you the truth. Many subjects, such as economy, appear to me to change almost on it's own, in which case the pres. gets the blame or credit. But in this case , I have no problem with dismanteling the Iraqi regime.  Saddam is a dictator.  His people have been tortured.  He is unopposed because of his guerilla war tactics.  He has invaded a country the size of my thumb.  He's gassed the kurd's.  Sounds like a Dictator who is hell bent on achieving power through any means available.   We can't let that happen ever again.

As for the u.n. resolution, we had every right to use military force to disarm saddam if he did not.  That's what these supposed 'allies' agreed upon.  Because the USA was the 'super power' to have enough gut's to undertake this, doesn't mean we're wrong.  Did you ever think France and Russia have other reasons to keep Saddam in power?  The U.N. has been shown to be for political posturing, if little else.  When we went to Kosovo, i believe there was no UN support.(i may be wrong)  Most of those country's that threatened to veto, gave no credible reason , other than to say give more time for inspections.  As if 12 years of trying to inspect , while Saddam played cat and mouse games wasn't enough.  Go back and look what inspectors have been through. The UN is lucky we didn't go on our own years ago.

As for weapons of mass destruction., Hans Blix has stated , in his final report, that there is still no proof that Iraq has destroyed their chemical weapons.  We are now finding cryptic proof of their existence as we go through Iraq.  So, what is the exact anti-war uprising about?  These protestors make up 5% of americans, but get all the media coverage by acting like jack-asses.  These people would be protesting war, no matter what the circumstances are.  I went to a PRO war rally in Philly about a week ago, and not 1 protestor had anything useful to say.  This is the jist of their argument-how many Iraqi children must we kill/?  How about they realize 450,000 Iraqi CHILDREN have died over the last 7 years because of mal-nutrition and disease.  Don't give me it's because of sanctions, because they've got a fat rat goverment over there worth billions. If Saddam really cared about his people , he would've worked with the UN, but he didn't. Don't get me wrong, it's their right to protest ,but how about realizing the only reason they have any of these rights is directly bore from past wars.