Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 15, 2003, 02:34:21 PM
OK, what I thought was weird was how Zion's scenes are akin to Star Trek or even Star Wars. WHat I found was a real revelation was how the 'Architect' said that the role of 'The One' was not to actually save the world, but to be the one that ends the current version of The Matrix, choose 6 women and 7 men, then The Matrix starts over again, with a 'new' Zion. Apparently, the Matrix we know is the 6th version. What was also cool was how there were other 'Ones' before Neo, who did the same thing, and that the current version of the Matrix was how it is because people were able to choose their world, which was the peak of human civilisation. I also like how they explain that everyone who has a key role to play in the fate of mankind has a specific programming. For example the Oracle, the Key Maker (go little Asian man!), even Neo as 'The One'.
I think the movie belongs to Smith. No longer an Agent. "Me, me, me!" "Me too!" Haha. That fight scene was just mind blowing. I don't think that any fight scene can top it. The chase on the highway was awesome. And how cool is it how Neo can create EMPs OUTSIDE of teh matrix eh? And man, that Bane (or something) guy, the other survivor. Ooooooh. He was turned into a copy of Smith, and Smith actually got into Zion!
I think someone else can explain this better than I did, but man, I'm too tired to boter re-writing it. I got out of the cinema confused a bit like I was when I saw the first one, so I'll have to see this again. And man! I was holding my bladder all throught the movie! I got out of there, and I was into the toilet in a flash. Damn Jumbo size coke.
I also think that this movie is a little less 'anime' and 'mysterious' than the first one. It's more like a sci-fi now.
EDIT: I guess no one here seems to have seen it then.
Post by: nolimit19 on May 16, 2003, 12:14:38 PM
i can honestly say i was a little disapointed.....it seems like they added sexual parts just for the sake of adding sexual parts. like there was no real use for that, and to me it kind of ruined hte credability of the movie. like they sold out kind of....maybe its just me. i loved the story twists and al lthat. i thought it was great, but another thing i didnt like is that neo didnt kill enough people....like when he was fighting agent smith there was no finishing moves....all it was, was back and forth hitting, and nothing was ever accoplished. i really wish they would have cut out that 20 minute dancing scean. it was so boring and they did it just to show tits. i am just kind of pissed that instead of using that time to explain more of the story, they used it to show breats....AND THE WHOLE DIGITAL ORGASM THING WAS HOMO!!! dear god....i swear.....parts of the movie were wonderful, but others just turned it into some triplex wannabe or something. to me the turned the matrix from a legend to just great or maybe even less then great with this movie.....some people say that its impossible to top the first one, but i think that it was very possible....i just think they made it too sexual, and for no apparent reason....it just reminded me of seeing a mindless action movie.
Post by: Grey Ninja on May 16, 2003, 12:22:09 PM
Post by: manunited4eva22 on May 16, 2003, 02:03:17 PM
Post by: Berny on May 16, 2003, 04:55:49 PM
I'd also like to thank you, anakin. I guess Igot distracted by the tvs in the background so I TOTALLY missed everything he said.
So...thanks!
Post by: Matt on May 16, 2003, 05:57:15 PM
The film's action is great, and the digital effects are excellent.
Sound is great as well, but make sure the movie theatre has Dolby Digital EX Surround, or you won't get the full effect.
The movie is excellent, but after seeing it, you better be ready for REVOLUTIONS in NOVEMBER!
Post by: aoi tsuki on May 16, 2003, 06:53:33 PM
Perhaps i shouldn't have watched the trailers, because the fights were, for the most part, umimpressive. If you've seen all the trailers, you've seen all the fights, which is one of the things that made the original so hot. There were too many slow-motion shots for scenes that didn't need to have it. Given the fact that the characters can alter the physics of the Matrix, i was expecting way more in the way of mind-blowing tricks like reversing gravity, altering object properties (steel shatters like glass), etc. If the Matrix is all ones and zeros (and upside-down katakana), why not fully exploit that?
The story itself was easily the best single element to the movie. i would've like more revelations about the Matrix or backstory on Niobe and Morpheus (and her current man), but i'm hoping to get more via Enter the Matrix (which i've barely played). The scene with the architect was great, as was the last 30 minutes of the movie. If i could pay just to see that, i would, but in any case i'll see it again to catch the bits i missed.
Matrix Reloaded reminds me somewhat of Star Wars: Episode II; not as good as the first movie that was released, and it makes you put your hopes in the sequel that will hopefully return the series to glory. Matrix Revolutions looks really good. The desparate attempt to save Zion makes it look even more tense, and the shot with Neo and Smith in the rain looks great. i can't wait to see what effects they do in the rain. i'll try my best not to watch any trailers for it.
Termin8Anakin: i had a huge Coke as well. i made the mistake of sipping it thirty minutes before the movie actually began.
Post by: Infernal Monkey on May 16, 2003, 07:51:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
AND THE WHOLE DIGITAL ORGASM THING WAS HOMO!!!
... That statement... Makes... No... Sense. At all.
Anyway, I thought it was a wonderful movie. I'm going to see it again on Monday, to pay more attention to the story. Once again the movie managed to give me a royal brain f**k.
My only gripes is that rave scene, not for the sex part, but because.. It.. just wasn't needed. Well, for not that long, anyway. If I want to watch people dance for five-ten minutes, I'll go laugh at people playing DDR at the arcade.
Post by: ThePerm on May 16, 2003, 08:20:40 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 16, 2003, 08:40:46 PM
The rave scene was a bit too long, i agree.
Hey Berny: I loved the part where all the Neos in the TVs all started cussing and making rude signs. That was f**king funny. BUt if you were listening, I think that meant that everyone in the Matrix, the 6th version, was actually given the freedom of choice. That explains why Neo, being told that he wasn't THE ONE by the Oracle, actually chose to become THE ONE, because what he did in the first movie (save Morpheus, Trinity, and fight Smith in the train Station) was deemed impossible. It's also why he chose the door on his left rather than on his right.
Which is why now they only have 24 hours to save the world in Revolutions.
I'm seeing it again tonight. Just to understand the story a bit more, and to see the Revolutions trailer at the end.
Post by: AdvancedGamer on May 17, 2003, 04:47:24 AM
( minor spoilers)
I think there is a significance for the sex scene. Doesn't Anyone think that because of this sex, Trinity will have a baby?????? That's why I think they put it in, it must have been really important to the next movie. Also they wouldn't have put it in if it meant nothing because more parents would of let their kids see it and they would have made more money.
(End Spoilers)
Also that movie must have cost a shitload too make. It was the best damn movie I've ever seen.
Post by: oohhboy on May 17, 2003, 05:32:58 AM
The movie was crazy. Plot, excution, graphic, script, Smith. All high marks. As mentioned before, Rave scene too long, seemingly pointless sex scene, Morphious's speech delivery could have been better if he did not try to shout. He just sounded bad when shouting. Some fight scenes unessercary long. Excellent movie. Giving LOTR some stiff competition. MOTY anyone?
Post by: nolimit19 on May 17, 2003, 11:51:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: oohhboy
They only have another 24 hours unless they have some kind of aftermath thing coming the sex scene would have been totally unessercary. But once the third movie comes out, I am sure that we will find out if it was even relavent or not.
The movie was crazy. Plot, excution, graphic, script, Smith. All high marks. As mentioned before, Rave scene too long, seemingly pointless sex scene, Morphious's speech delivery could have been better if he did not try to shout. He just sounded bad when shouting. Some fight scenes unessercary long. Excellent movie. Giving LOTR some stiff competition. MOTY anyone?
yea i agree with the morpheus thing.....i think the movie started out pretty bad....the second half was great, but the 1st half sucked...also i agree that some fight scenes got boring....neo should have been finishing off the smiths....but instead all it was, was hitting him in the face repeatedly.....i mean how many times can u see someone hit in the face and enjoy it. and the scene where u see neo and the moon in the background(he is flying when this happens) he looks like a cartoon.....for the most part the special effects were great in this movie, but at parts u could really tell when it was a computer generated neo. what sucks imo is that this movie could have been twice as good if they just did a few things a little differently. but it still is good enough for me not to go on a killing spree.
Post by: aoi tsuki on May 17, 2003, 12:22:28 PM
Quote
and the scene where u see neo and the moon in the background(he is flying when this happens) he looks like a cartoon...
i considered it a tradeoff for more spectacular stunts. Doing stunts by wire will only get you so far. Luckily most of the CG was well done and not apparent, at least not on the subpar screen i saw it on.
i completely forgot Morpheus. His voice when he was shouting in the Zion cave didn't sound quite like him, at least not as good as the scream when he breaks the chains in the office building in the first movie, if my memory holds correct. The way Fishburne delivered some of his lines seemed off; he seemed a little too smug and as if he didn't believe what he was saying.
Post by: Grey Ninja on May 17, 2003, 12:22:40 PM
I don't care what you guys say. I saw that and I was like: "WHOA!!! I have GOT to program some of that cake!"I really think that what doomed this movie though was all the plot-holes that carried over from the first movie. It just wasn't well thought out, and since they are building on that... it's starting to crumble. Things that seem immediately obvious to me just don't happen in The Matrix. I can go into detail on many things about it that bother me, but I don't really feel like it right now.
I thought it was a good movie and worth a watch, but it just wasn't a classic. I do want to see the last movie though.
Post by: ThePerm on May 17, 2003, 03:21:43 PM
also...the morpheus thing..they didnt have microphones in the cave..he had to shout otherwise no one would hear him.....
and (BIG SPOILER)
i thought it was funny the oracle was actually a distraction..because i was wodnering what the hell their doing constantly going into the matrix...
Post by: aoi tsuki on May 17, 2003, 04:39:13 PM
Quote
also...the morpheus thing..they didnt have microphones in the cave..he had to shout otherwise no one would hear him.....
Odd acoustics in that cave... virtually no echo (to my recollection), and he was able to be heard even in the back.
Regarding the cake scene (as it should be referred to in keeping with the rules), i've gotta say that was an awesome closeup of the cake, and it was equally as stimulating, if not moreso, than the woman eating it. It's absolute darkness and matted look, combined with the fineness of the cake's texture, made evident in the side view as it gave way to the utensil that forced itself upon it...
As i saw that, i felt what the woman did.
Post by: nolimit19 on May 17, 2003, 11:08:54 PM
Post by: oohhboy on May 18, 2003, 01:07:35 AM
There were not really any plot holes as such. You have to remeber, it is written to be a trilogy. The brothers were probaly not sure whether they were going to be allowed o finsh the movies, so the first movie seemed more complete than Reloaded. The martix has to be some of the tightest movies written for yearssss...
My favarite scene has to be with the aritect, especially when you have like 100 Neos cussing. Sort of a reversion back to has uncalm self.
I think what happened was that the brothers did not quite write their scenes quite as tightly in Reloaded as the first matrix.
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 18, 2003, 01:55:47 AM
What's the world coming too!!? a;lsg 34633409 #$%#^#!
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 18, 2003, 04:08:32 AM
I agree with you on all your other points though, cause I saw it again last night. The rave scence wasn't really THAT long. I think the sex scene symbolises the love between two humans NOT connected to the matrix. I think this is shown at the end of it when you see Neo's back. I like Link. Cool name. Haha. I like how his wife/girlfriend is Tank and Dozer's sister. I guess Tank was killed then.
I think the reason why Morpheus is so confident is because he has put so much time and effort into making the 'prophesy' come true that he believes that it will come to pass. He looks really heart-broken when he finally has to accept that it's not true, and when the Nebechednezzer (that how u spell it?) is destroyed.
And Professional, yes, Neo can fly. Didn't you see the end of the first movie? I like how he goes up above the clouds. That was bloody awesome. Especially how he just rushes to the top of Oracle's building, and when he's rushin in to save Trinity. Man, see all the wreckage behind him?
And who saw the Matrix Revolutions trailer? Wow. This is gonna be awesome. I saw pics of teh Neo-Smith fight on FilmForce, and I was wondering what happened to them in Reloaded. So i guess it' here.
I think Revolutions is going to have a very anime-like ending, wher everyone is destryoed and the Matrix starts over. But then again, it's Hollywood, so I guess Neo saves the world.
Post by: Vanilla Thunder on May 18, 2003, 04:11:59 AM
First of all, it shows that Neo is not some god, but that he is still very human, and as human he is still susceptible to human urges, feelings, and emotions. This makes his character just as vunlerable as he is strong. Then, second of all, it explains, in a very direct way, why Neo is so emotionally attached to Trinity, to the point where he sacrifices Zion to save her at the end. The sex helps to explain why their love is so intimate without covering all of the character development in their relationship (you know, the sweet talking). Neo and Trinity loved each other to begin with, but then this new expression of love sealed the commitment. And finally, this scene foreshadows a number of possibilities, from a dramatic and unexpected separation in the third movie (maybe one of them dies, or one is left behind in the Matrix while the other is free), or, more likely, the birth of a child. In most modern myths, the legendary hero falls in love and has a child that'll go on to accomplish even greater things. Any such things may apply here.
Anyways, there's nothing "dirty" about that sex scene. It was very clean, and they love each other, so I suppose their passion was justified. The dance scene was simply to show how high the spirits of the Zionists were, how hopeful and fearless they were despite the circumstances, and, in the end, create irony when those same bold people are slaughtered by the Machines. It all plays into the storyline on so many levels that it's incredible, and is in no ways stooping to some level. It's all in how you interpret it.
And with the cake and woman, you can take that as a sexually-oriented joke --- after all, that French guy is pretty funny --- or as dark symbolism for just how much power the Matrix has over the poor, helpless people trapped inside of it. That woman was being preyed on by the French dude, and though you couldn't help but like it in some ways (she was hot), you also can't help but feel sorry for her. Once again, playing into the story, as long as you look at things in the philosophical sense that this movie is geared towards.
Anyways, it was a GREAT movie! Did anyone catch the monster references? The Oracle spoke of vampires, ghosts, and werewolves being the product of programs doing things they're not supposed to. I saw examples of all such. The ghosts were the Twins, obviously, the werewolves were those older versions of the agents who fought with swords and daggers (remember, they could only be killed with silver bullets, which is what you kill a werewolf with), and Persophone and the Merovigian were vampires in a symbolic sense (ever hear the term "vampire of the emotions"). Also, there's a vampire movie playing on the big screen when Persophone walks into that one room with the two older agents. Very cool stuff.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 18, 2003, 04:45:41 AM
I think what you and DRJ said in the other thread was very understandable. I got WHY there needed to be different versions of the Matrix. After readin your posts, the Wachowski bros' script seems more intelligent.
Quote by DRJ
--------------------------------------------
Think about this. Only 99% of humans will except the matrix so 1% know that there is something wrong. The people in zion help remove these people from the matrix thinking that they are freeing them, but really they are just enterring another matrix. The "real world" is acceptable to these people and so the matrix is stable. Eventually there are to many anomalies (in this case 250,000) and so The One is created. Zion is destroyed and then rebuilt. The matrix starts all over again...
--------------------------------------------
And this:
Quote by DRJ
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I think the machines allow zion to survive because they (the people of zion) unknowingly do the work for the machines. They seek out people in the matrix that are anomalies (people that will not accept the matrix). They free them and so the matrix is stable.
---------------------------------------------
The first explanation, I think is right, but I don't agree on the middle bit. Your second explanation made more sense though. But the people in Zion ARE in the real world. But because they believe that they are in persecution from the machines, they believe that they have to free everyone. But, in a quote from the Animatrix, 'Only the most exceptional people become aware of the Matrix'. These people are the anomallies. Yes, DRJ, you're right about that. They believe something is wrong, and they are the ones that are ready to be 'freed'. They are in fact the ones that will help the machines create a 'better reality' - so that 100% of the humans will accept the reality. The ones who are not anomallies are the ones who accept it. When all the anomallies will have been collected, The One is created. He will be a collection of these anomallies, go back to the Source, and the machines can create a new reality.
Quote by DRJ
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The machines dont care if a few humans break free since they have billions locked in. When zion grows to a level that could be a threat they destroy them and start over.
--------------------------------------------
I totally agree with this.
Does anyone have anything else to add? This is just what I think.
EDIT:
Oh hey! Does anyone remember this quote form Morpheus?
'When the Matrix was first created there was a man born inside. It was he who freed the first of us'.
That not only gives us a back story to the creation of this version of the Matrix, but I think 'the man born inside' is the One from the previous version! 'The first of us' refers to the 23 other people!
At first I thought guys like the Merovigian was one of the people who were carried over to the next version, but I guess he was a program who chose exile over deletion as well, like the werewolves, the twins, and the goons who does his dirty work who get shot with silver bullets. Smith is one of these exiles i gather as well.
Post by: oohhboy on May 18, 2003, 05:20:56 AM
Post by: DRJ on May 18, 2003, 08:28:40 AM
After The One is created he decides to help destroy and rebuild zion. He goes to the source and his code is analyzed, them he helps make a new matrix, and the always choose the hight us human society. Then he chooses 23 other people to help repopulate zion. This is all acceptable to me, but what I cant get is how doe Neo stop the robots at the end if he is in the Real World. Does he have a wireless moden in his head and can tap into the matrix...
One other thing I found odd was during the conversation between Neo and the Architech. The Architech states: "Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it. And we have become exceedingly efficient at it. The function of the One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program after which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix. Which, coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race."
The Architech states that Neo must select 23 people from the matrix to rebuild zion. Not 23 people from zion to survive and help rebuild it. Does this mean that he could select anyone from the matrix and the machines would free them and set place them in zion, or does it mean that anyoone from the matrix can be placed in zion because it simply is another matrix.
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 18, 2003, 10:04:38 AM
I thought that the movie was very good. The sex scene was not at all graphic, I don't know what everyone's complaining about, and it did accomplish things. the action sequences were spectacular; I laughed aloud at the coolness more than once. Last, while I thought the plot was very good, even better than the first one, I can understand why some people would be disappointed in it.
Post by: Vanilla Thunder on May 18, 2003, 12:17:50 PM
The only way I can see Neo winning this war is if he actually manages to free every single individual within the Matrix, and we're talking billions of people in doing that. Perhaps he'll find some system command that can unlock all of the minds simultaneously, and then combine their strengths in the real world to topple the Machines in a Third Renassaince. In the Revolutions trailer you see what looks to be like a giant war between the humans and the machines, with the mechs and ships battling the sentinels and giant control units. So maybe...
Still, sounds pretty crazy. I loved Reloaded's cliffhanger. It makes for endless possibilities...
And DRJ, do you happen to have access to the final script of the movie? I'd be really interested to see it.
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 18, 2003, 01:01:46 PM
**SUPER SPOILERS**
Remember what he did pre-coma? It seems his mental capabilities that he uses to affect the Matrix can also work outside of the Matrix. Which makes sense, since the robots use the Matrix as a source of energy, and are directly linked to it.
Post by: DRJ on May 18, 2003, 02:17:05 PM
Quote
The only way I can see Neo winning this war is if he actually manages to free every single individual within the Matrix, and we're talking billions of people in doing that. Perhaps he'll find some system command that can unlock all of the minds simultaneously, and then combine their strengths in the real world to topple the Machines in a Third Renassaince
Remember that even if the humans are freed they still will be worthless to the war cause. They wont be able to walk, cant see very well, they wont even know what the hell is going on. They havnt used the muscles ever in their whole life.
Also the humans were defeated by the machines when they were at the hight of their civilization. Their armies were organized. There started the war when they thought they had the best chance of winning, and they lost. Brute force will not beat the machines. Maybe they can make a virus to shut them down, but they cant rely on any humans outside of zion helping.
Quote
Remember what he did pre-coma? It seems his mental capabilities that he uses to affect the Matrix can also work outside of the Matrix. Which makes sense, since the robots use the Matrix as a source of energy, and are directly linked to it.
The machines may be linked to the Matrix, but how is Neo able to tap into it?
Quote
And DRJ, do you happen to have access to the final script of the movie? I'd be really interested to see it.
Ive been looking. So far all I have found is the conversation betwenn Neo and the Architech. If anyone finds a copy post a link.
Post by: Matt on May 18, 2003, 03:08:06 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 18, 2003, 04:26:27 PM
Post by: nolimit19 on May 19, 2003, 07:17:09 AM
Post by: RickPowers on May 19, 2003, 07:54:22 AM
The storyline about there having been more than one Matrix was established as far back as the first movie. Agent Smith was discussing the previous "versions" of the Matrix with Morpheus when he was trying to get the codes to the Zion mainframe. It was also foreshadowed (or telegraphed, if you prefer) several times in Reloaded, such as the french guy talking about Neo's "predecessors".
The first Matrix was perfect, but no one would accept it. With the help of the Oracle, they created a flawed world that gave people "choice". The problem is that while more people than ever accepted the falsity of the world, by definition, a small contingent would NOT accept it. These people would break free and rebel, freeing others, breaking down the system. In order to fix this "problem", they created a Messiah, "The One", Neo ... who would actually bring about the destruction of the ones who were freed because they believed in him. However, again, the problem of choice is handled, but it's not a "real choice. The One is given the choice of picking a few people to rebuild Zion with, or going back to the Matrix to save the ones he loves, in this case, Trinity. Predictably, Neo chooses to go back, fulfilling his "purpose".
There have NOT been six different versions of "The Matrix". There have simply been six different ZIONS, each time destroyed by the machines, unknowingly betrayed (even unbeknownst to him) by The One. Zion is an eventuality, the result of choice, although just as predictable a result as anything else. The One is a trojan horse, sent to infiltrate Zion and bring about it's destruction ... and that's why Neo can do the tings he can do. It's his purpose.
That's right. Neo is not real. He's a program with a purpose, just like all the others. I'm under the impression that "Revolutions" will deal with Neo taking a path that was not predicted, using the flaw of choice to choose to fight his own purpose and destiny and try to end the cycle. I'm still not entirely sure what the reasoning is behind Neo being able to use his abilities outside the Matrix proper, but I'm working out the logic behind it. Perhaps Neo is simply a machine himself?
Post by: oohhboy on May 19, 2003, 09:26:33 AM
Post by: RickPowers on May 19, 2003, 10:35:45 AM
We have computers that can do this today, albeit in a much more limited fashion. It's called "Fuzzy Logic", where instead of a simple on or off switch, the routine can choose.
Post by: baberg on May 19, 2003, 11:32:55 AM
The humans in Zion are not actually free of the Matrix, they're simply in another Matrix. The "real world" hasn't yet been seen by any humans - everybody who has "broken out" is actually still trapped, although in a different world than the rest of humankind. 99% of the world can be fooled by the 1999 world. The other 1% is too skeptical and needs this harsher "reality" because, after all, it's pain and suffering that defines reality (see Agent Smith's comments on the previous version of the Matrix).
The other Zions were other meta-Matrixes that the machines culled. Let a few break out of 1999, and when the numbers get high enough to warrant it, track them all down and kill them. I'm not sure where Neo fits in, though. Maybe he's a special kind of Agent, as Rick suggested. Maybe he's supposed to somehow believe he's doing the right thing to save Zion but ends up destroying it, I don't know.
It's kind of a cheesy way out, but the meta-Matrix does explain how Neo can use his abilities "outside" the 1999 Matrix - the "real world" still a computer program that he can affect.
Post by: RickPowers on May 19, 2003, 11:35:39 AM
If what you suggest is true ... why would they need Neo at all? In fact, why would they need the Sentinels to destroy Zion? The "more than one Matrix" has far too many plot holes to be the direction they're going. Well, it does NOW, at least.
Post by: DRJ on May 19, 2003, 12:33:17 PM
So here is what I think has happened.
A Matrix is created in which 99% of all people will accept it. 1% will not and so Zion is created. The people are set free by the machines. In Matrix 1 it is said that there was someone born in the matrix that set the first person free. Anyone born in the matrix is a creation of the machines with a purpose. So some people who will not accept the matrix are set free, but in reality they are still in another level of the matrix, a level that they will accept as real. They then seek out people in the matrix that are part of the 1% anomilies and set them free thus unknowingly keeping the matrix stable. Unfortunately there is one flaw that the machines must still deal with. Eventually "The One" will be born. Either real or not, I'm not sure, but his life is the sum of the errors in the matrix and thus he can manipulate the matrix to his will. The machines then introduce the prophecy to control him. his path eventually leads him to the architech where he is given the choice to save zion or destroy it, and he always chooses to save it, thus he is really helping the machines to maintain control and the cycle repeats. In this case he chose to save Trinity and sacrifice zion. He is then able to utilze more power in the outer matrix "Real World".
When Neo leaves the matrix and the sentinals are ready to attack he knows that they have a bomb even though they have never used bombs before and the computer screen didnt show us anything that could have tipped Neo off. At least the other crew didnt know there was a bomb. Does this mean that Neo can now subconsciously read the code of the outer matrix? He can also control the sentinals because they are just a computer program.
Right now I think that there have not been any humans freed from the matrix. In Matrix 3 I think Neo will destroy the Matrix and set himself free and wake up in the real real world to find that he is the only one truly freed.
If anyone has an explaination that would allow Neo to use his powers outside of the Matrix I would like to hear it. I want to believe that there are some freed humans and that there is hope of overpowering the machines, but I just dont see how... yet.
Post by: baberg on May 19, 2003, 01:01:00 PM
But then again, why don't the computers just switch him off? And why don't they switch off the 1% who doesn't accept the 1999 Matrix?
You're right - the meta-Matrix fixes the plot hole of using powers outside the Matrix, but opens up far too many others to be right.
Post by: Hostile Creation on May 19, 2003, 04:50:05 PM
Something like Neo destroying all the burrowing robots and then dying could happen. Just a speculation, probably won't happen.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 19, 2003, 05:27:33 PM
So I'm willing to accept that until Revolutions comes out.
EDIT: All this talk of ANOTHER reality is actually a pretty similar concept to that in the movie 'The Thirteenth Floor'. If any of you see this movie in the video store, rent it. Like The Matrix, it's a movie that also presents questions on our perception on reality, and it's also less confusing.
Post by: Armed on May 19, 2003, 06:22:11 PM
Post by: Arbok on May 19, 2003, 07:04:47 PM
I loved the first, but the second left me cold...
The film seemed about about 30% filler to me, and the fights seemed.... well worn out. They rarely ever reached the same level as the first Matrix.
The dance scene, as others have mentioned, is probably the most painful part. I swear the scene was constructed with the sole purpose of giving customers a chance to run out and get some popcorn.
If I had to make the choice again, seeing Matrix Reloaded or $9, my wallet would be $9 thicker... but live and learn.
Post by: oohhboy on May 20, 2003, 02:46:50 AM
Remember, Neo is human, also remember that he does not believe in fate and morphies re-enforces that belief. And because of that belief we was able to make the choice that the last 5 "Ones" did not make.
As for the EMP thing with Neo, seeing how well the brothers have written the plot so far and that this is a 3 part movie, all so called major plot holes would be filled quite nicely.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 20, 2003, 03:21:52 AM
But man, imagine the crap that the brothers would get if it was.
Post by: oohhboy on May 20, 2003, 06:00:34 AM
If all the Brothers could come up with is waking from a dream, the matrix trilogy would become the worse trilogy ever produced and the brothers would get more flak than the Dixie chicks. If that was to happen and I lived in L.A. I would happyly help run the brothers out of town.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 20, 2003, 07:52:26 AM
Post by: DRJ on May 20, 2003, 08:53:01 AM
1) Why are the agents such bad shots? They put 1000 bullets into the car in the chase scene, but hit nobody, and when trinity is falling from the building she doesnt dodge at all, all the bullets just miss.
2) The way the twins (ghosts) died was completely cheap.
3) when morpheus and the keymaker are on the truck and they are about to collide with the other truck, why are they just standing there. Why cant they just jump off the freeway and land unharmed a couple hundred feet away? They can just off skyscrapers just fine.
Very good movie. The cliffhanger sucks, but it was very good. I just dont want to wait. Fortunately we will all know the truth in 6 months. If it is a dream sequence then someone is gonna die.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 20, 2003, 09:43:49 AM
I know. You figure a machine would be the exact opposite and would have like a 99.9% hit accuracy. But you have to remember the number one rule of action movies: every action hero has a special ability to dodge any bullet regardless of distance, accuracy or the amount of bullets. Other rules include the ability to shrug off any injury no matter how severe and the ability to ignore real world physics providing that the resulting action looks really cool.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 20, 2003, 04:32:16 PM
Hmmm, probably the fact that they're falling off a DAMN SKYSCRAPER? I mean, in real life if you really do fall that slow, then you would have time, but geez, you're falling at one hellava speed, so aiming would be the last thing you'd want to think about. You'd just wanna get as many rounds off as possible.
"2) The way the twins (ghosts) died was completely cheap."
Did they really die?
They just got flung up and then they turned into their ghost version. Who knows if they lived or died."3) when morpheus and the keymaker are on the truck and they are about to collide with the other truck, why are they just standing there. Why cant they just jump off the freeway and land unharmed a couple hundred feet away? They can just off skyscrapers just fine."
The Keymaker has no abilities at all other than to make keys. He can't fight like they can, he can't jump up walls, or land two hundred feet away. Besides, you'd be scared sh*tless to do anything anyway. And if theyr did jump, there'd be all the cars pounding toward them.
Haha. That's just my opinion.
Post by: oohhboy on May 21, 2003, 04:05:58 AM
Quote
1) Why are the agents such bad shots? They put 1000 bullets into the car in the chase scene, but hit nobody, and when trinity is falling from the building she doesnt dodge at all, all the bullets just miss.
At most it would have taken Trinity 5 seconds to hit the ground. The agent arrived about 2 seconds after Trinity jumped. Therefore the agent had 3 seconds to shot Trinity. That works nicely as Trinity would have unloaded the two clips by then anyway. Also the Agents are still restricted by the rules of the Matrix so they can't have 99.9% accuracy. The camera angle also made everything look closer then they really are.
As with having 1000 bullets in the car, well if I knew something about the make of the car it would help. I mean those expensive excutive cars tend to have additional security features.
Quote
2) The way the twins (ghosts) died was completely cheap.
I don't think they are dead and they always look dead.
Quote
when morpheus and the keymaker are on the truck and they are about to collide with the other truck, why are they just standing there. Why cant they just jump off the freeway and land unharmed a couple hundred feet away? They can just off skyscrapers just fine.
Morphues did jump, but he is no Neo. Considering that the Keymaker is not excatly light and that they has like 2 seconds before they went to hell, Morphues did pretty good getting 5 meters off the trucks before they blew up.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 21, 2003, 04:31:14 AM
Post by: DRJ on May 21, 2003, 06:21:14 AM
Did they really die? They just got flung up and then they turned into their ghost version. Who knows if they lived or died.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont think that the twins turned into their ghost form when they blew up. It showed them in human form getting blasted through the air. Maybe they survived, but if they did why wouldnt they go fight morpheous some more.
Post by: RickPowers on May 21, 2003, 06:41:57 AM
You know, I've heard a lot of complaints about the movie over the past week or so. While some are valid, I think that most of them are the result of the movie being over-hyped, or people simply NOT PAYING ATTENTION to) what they were watching. Harry Knowles (http://www.aintitcoolnews.com) had a few complaints, but when he gets key facts COMPLETELY WRONG, you have to wonder how much of the movie he really watched.
Post by: cubefreak123 on May 21, 2003, 08:35:08 AM
Quote
Originally posted by: nolimit19
*SPOILERS*
i can honestly say i was a little disapointed.....it seems like they added sexual parts just for the sake of adding sexual parts. like there was no real use for that, and to me it kind of ruined hte credability of the movie. like they sold out kind of....maybe its just me. i loved the story twists and al lthat. i thought it was great, but another thing i didnt like is that neo didnt kill enough people....like when he was fighting agent smith there was no finishing moves....all it was, was back and forth hitting, and nothing was ever accoplished. i really wish they would have cut out that 20 minute dancing scean. it was so boring and they did it just to show tits. i am just kind of pissed that instead of using that time to explain more of the story, they used it to show breats....AND THE WHOLE DIGITAL ORGASM THING WAS HOMO!!! dear god....i swear.....parts of the movie were wonderful, but others just turned it into some triplex wannabe or something. to me the turned the matrix from a legend to just great or maybe even less then great with this movie.....some people say that its impossible to top the first one, but i think that it was very possible....i just think they made it too sexual, and for no apparent reason....it just reminded me of seeing a mindless action movie.
Yea I agree with u. and because of that scene my parents wont allow me to c it. I think sex scenes are senseless. I mean for a chickflick sure I mean its a girl thing but not for the matrix.
Post by: Vanilla Thunder on May 21, 2003, 11:12:46 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 21, 2003, 06:24:18 PM
Post by: oohhboy on May 22, 2003, 03:30:46 AM
Once the Neo + Trinity scene was explained, it made a heck of alot of sense. The cake scene was to make an example of how powerful imfomation is in the Matrix. The frence guys knew how to alter the Matrix because of his information network, so the cake was just an example of his power in the matrix.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 22, 2003, 05:02:23 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on May 22, 2003, 08:01:11 AM
i dont really get what rick was saying about neo not being real, but this is how i thought the movie went....the only reason he has his powers is because, as the architech said, "u are the remainder of an unbalancable equation". so i think that he is just something that had to happen, and the machines use that to their advantage....or another form of "control". and just like agent smith was allowed to cross over to the real world in that dudes body, some of neos "powers" were able to cross over too. and all i have to say is that zion better not be another matrix, because that would honestly be dumb. and where in gods name is the explantion for the whole Tank incident???
Post by: oohhboy on May 22, 2003, 08:47:15 AM
Post by: nolimit19 on May 22, 2003, 09:06:51 AM
Post by: BlkPaladin on May 22, 2003, 09:30:26 AM
Technically he was an exile but he said he knew what he should do but didn't because he basically wanted to better Neo. The other agents were surprised to see him because of his interaction with Neo he basically is now working outside the program.
I would like to say the story after you strip away all the action is surprising tight. The Oracle picks out the one who will be more likly to surcome to the notion of the prophacy of the one and have them released. The Oracle picks out the one who he will fall in love with to add another level of control over him. (I think the Nightmares he was recieving was from the system so he whould tell her to stay out of the matrix so he whould more likely go through the door they want.)
It just that several things goofed up the works this time. (The operators getting killed on that one ship so Trinity had to enter. And Agent Smith.)
Smith is interesting it seemed at by the end of the movie that he wanted to replace Neo as the one who whould join with the Mainframe. Smith is the biggest varible in the storyline he will either end up being the greatest help or hinderance to what is left of the free human race.
Now on to conceil 20-to-1 they knew their time was up and what they had to do. Its just the things the head of the conceil said, and the fact that they are the oldest members which means they are the 14 that the last The One choose to release from the matrix. That is why they bated that guy into sending the two other ships.
The thing is like a system purge they release all those that contain some of the rougue data that "poisions" their set up and end up killing them so a natural defense cant be built up to their illusion by taking out the strongest, because they release those who are more resliant to the programming. And when the data is added from the One, (Who recieves the "powers" from the orical to act outside the matrix as fully as he does. Sort of giving him administrative powers, some of it is natural ability.)
I like the fact that the machines has Zion rigged so it easy to take over.
That's enough of my pondering.
Post by: TomServo on May 23, 2003, 07:25:51 AM
Not only that, but the fights were terrible. I was almost laughing when Neo fought the infinite Smiths, it was like a damn Keystone Cops episode. I was expecting some corny carnival music in the background. I can't remember if I was laughing harder at this part of the movie or at the preview for "Freddie Vs. Jason." Plus, I hate computer animation.
And why should I be worried about anything during the fights? Neo's the One, right? We all know this, and yet we are forced to sit through terrible scenes in order to see him win, which we knew he'd do anyway, 'cause he's the One! What happened to the whole "Fly Into Their Chest and Blow Them Up" move?
My head hurt after this movie, and not because it was complicated. I wasn't confused by the discussion with the...ahem...Architect because by that time, I didn't care. I wanted to leave.
I would've asked for a refund, but I know that theaters can't give you two hours of your life back.
My first post.
Post by: Ian Sane on May 23, 2003, 07:47:35 AM
Well sh!t, if you're going to use THAT logic then any action movie fight is pointless because common sense indicates that the hero always wins. I know that Jackie Chan isn't going to lose when he fights fifty guys on top of a train that's on a collision course with another train yet it's still fun to watch. Besides even though Neo is the one he can still be killed. It's just harder to kill him.
Post by: TomServo on May 23, 2003, 12:31:58 PM
It's like, instead of saying, "Hey, we've got everyone's attention, now let's tell a damn good story," it's like the Wachowskis(sp?) said, "People are stupid. They won't care about story, we just have to make the special effects bigger and better and have a bunch of long, drawn out fight scenes. Oh! And some t!ts! Yeah, that'll keep 'em from bitching too much."
Were they right?
Post by: BlkPaladin on May 23, 2003, 06:07:51 PM
You start to find out in the movie that technically there is no such thing as "the one". Just a glitch that comes around about every century and they use a person that has the most rezilance to the programing and give him a program (I think the candy he was giving by the oracle had something in it.) that ends up patching it up for another cycle. Basically I think there is one reason there is a one the archtech and oracle allows him to have more freedom in the program.
But I will have to agree if you are not willing to think at any level about the social commentary that the film has all the movie is a run of the mill action title.
Post by: oohhboy on May 23, 2003, 07:37:37 PM
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But I will have to agree if you are not willing to think at any level about the social commentary that the film has all the movie is a run of the mill action title.
Yeah with some really slick action sequences.
Quote
It's like, instead of saying, "Hey, we've got everyone's attention, now let's tell a damn good story," it's like the Wachowskis(sp?) said, "People are stupid. They won't care about story, we just have to make the special effects bigger and better and have a bunch of long, drawn out fight scenes. Oh! And some t!ts! Yeah, that'll keep 'em from bitching too much."
Thats what happened to Star Wars, only now with more chesse.
Post by: Darc Requiem on May 23, 2003, 07:42:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: TomServo
Good point, but Jackie Chan's not the One. There is still the possibility that Jackie could die, and that's the hope that I will always cling to. It's not just the Matrix, it's any action film where the hero is invincible (or so close to it that it's basically the same thing). If that's the case, fight scenes are pointless.
It's like, instead of saying, "Hey, we've got everyone's attention, now let's tell a damn good story," it's like the Wachowskis(sp?) said, "People are stupid. They won't care about story, we just have to make the special effects bigger and better and have a bunch of long, drawn out fight scenes. Oh! And some t!ts! Yeah, that'll keep 'em from bitching too much."
Were they right?
There is a possibility that Jackie could die!? What are you smoking TomServo....unless a stunt goes wrong and he gets killed Jackie Chan will win. He's been making action films for what 30+ years now and he always wins. If by some misfortune he is killed doing a stunt...I doubt that movie would be even released. The beauty in watching a action movie isn't knowing whether the hero will win, thats a given, its seeing how the hero wins. Its sort of off subject but its like in Kiss of the Dragon when Jet Li walks in the room full of police officer's. You know he's gonna win but its amazing seeing him, without wires or CG, beat 20 guys in a well choreagraphed scene relying only on his speed and skill.
Darc Requiem
Darc Requiem
Post by: ThePerm on May 23, 2003, 08:27:33 PM
feeling more and more like im going to wake up...i can't be god for very long. Also it is very possible to have feeling, taste, and touch in dreams..but everythign in dreams is fuzzy for the most part. The matrix refines the dream and makes it realistic by feeding it to you. At the same time when your inside you make choices thus creating feedback for the compuer. The matrix doesnt rely on polygons it relies on your perceptions and other peoples perceptions to create code which is the language of the logorythmic responces of your brain.
Anyways the one does not really come into power until he is reborn into the matrix...what happened was that he screwed up the whole system when he died...but he came back some how by the sheer virtue of being 1 out of a trillion that will bounce back after death. He has come to accept that the matrix cannot cause his death if he controls his preception. Controlling his perception allows him to alter his reality and the perception of the program. Neo's switch has snapped and he is no longer affected(most of the time he does get cut by a blade)by total control of the matrix. However he has not mastered his perception otherwise you would see more dragon ball z stuff.
The oracle is a statistical program and it is actually able to determine who will bounce back from death.
The orcale is aware of what Neo will become and is a part of a system that will prevent him from taking back earth.
Smith is anotehr anomolie...a really bad accident...most programs just malfunction and dont work right....but smith is a virus..he wants to invade every living and mechanical thing and take over and duplicate himself...he is really going to fuck up the matrix. Infecting humans has given him an edge...he already had superb powers but now he has a more powerful and safe way to hide.
The next movie is called revolutions whic makes me think that the world is going to change..neo has devloped powers outside the matrix and will also become something that wasnt predicted.
however the second matrix reality theory is interesting. If you have been ever into religion you will not that in most religions this is not the real world but an illusion and perhaps an illusion in many tiered levels.
Post by: TomServo on May 24, 2003, 08:41:53 AM
"its amazing seeing him, without wires or CG"
That was my other complaint. Jackie Chan is actually doing all of those stunts, without wires or CG, whereas Neo is just a flying cartoon. How can I possibly be wowed by a cartoon? Maybe if I was unable to tell that Neo was fake, then I would be impressed, but it's so glaringly obvious.
As for Star Wars, you're partially correct. There is still a storyline there, and it is explored quite in depth(except for some of Episode 1), while The Matrix Reloaded could've been summed up in about twenty minutes. It's like "Dude, Where's My Car?" there was absolutely NO NEED for an hour and a half long movie that could've been about two minutes long.
Man, I didn't think my first posts would be arguments. Sorry.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 24, 2003, 06:20:09 PM
Hey Perm, how do you, and some other people actually get away with using swear words?
i mean, look at your last post! Right there is the word f**k.
whats the deal?
Post by: Shift Key on May 24, 2003, 10:59:44 PM
Review: I came out with a big grin on my face. Sure, it didn't have the impact of the first one, but it really made me think again. The whole concept of the Matrix, with the 'exile' programs running free, and the illusion of choice in the Matrix is very intriguing. The fact that Neo, Morpheus and co have to put some trust in these programs brings up the dilemma of whose on whose side, and how many sides there are. And it's left me hanging out for the final chapter, with so many unanswered questions.
Some people are complaining that Neo's powers are not as great, especially the review at Ain't It Cool. They seem to forget the few times in the movie where 'encryption' is mentioned about the Matrix. The Machines are making it harder for Neo to affect the programs inside the Matrix, such as the Agents, and so he has to resort to the kung-fu fighting. It can also be seen when he goes to see the Oracle, and her attendant hs the golden aura when Neo first sees him.
Agent Smith definitely appears to be an important character, and a scene stealer too, just like in the original. There seem to be more questions than answers about his abilities in the Matrix, and exactly how he can exist outside the Matrix, but I'm sure the Wachowski's have got the answers for Revolutions. I think he was exiled because he was freed from control by the Matrix and changed his program code when Neo destroys him at the end of the first movie. He changes his plan to destroy Neo by spreading himself like a virus, but that isn't really that successful. That preview of Revolutions with the Smith and Neo scene looked awesome!!!!
And the Architect. Man, that was seriously deep. Version 6! I like someone's theory that the councillors are the 12 from the resettlement of Zion, but the Architect actually says that the past five 'anomalies' actually refused to go to the Source after meeting the Architect, like Neo did. The Councillor that was talking to Neo in Zion, and went to the Engineering sector with him to show the Machines and explain control, I suspect there is more to him than meets the eye. Talking about how the humans are reliant on machines, how we have control over them, and comparing it to what is known about the Machines is a cool idea. It also shows why the Machines look for answers to why some reject the Matrix, in the form of the anomaly and his code.
Honesty, I think this movie is going to send me crazy until Revolutions.
Post by: ThePerm on May 24, 2003, 11:28:39 PM
Also youll wonder why on earth do they go to a powerplant inside the matrix to shut off the power....its virtual there really is no power.
What they should have done was disconect the pwoer from the farther bottom floor by dstroying the wiring..then the power could never reach the top however....th keymaker, the oracle, etc...it was all jsut a distraction to start with.
Post by: oohhboy on May 25, 2003, 03:19:28 AM
Post by: Chasefox on May 25, 2003, 06:36:41 AM
Post by: ThePerm on May 25, 2003, 09:29:34 PM
Post by: oohhboy on May 26, 2003, 01:55:51 AM
Post by: ThePerm on May 26, 2003, 11:58:04 AM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 26, 2003, 10:45:55 PM
Post by: oohhboy on May 27, 2003, 03:02:55 AM
Post by: GoldShadow1 on May 27, 2003, 05:16:49 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 27, 2003, 05:22:34 PM
Post by: oohhboy on May 27, 2003, 08:59:23 PM
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 28, 2003, 03:04:20 AM
Post by: ThePerm on May 28, 2003, 09:36:37 AM
Post by: BiLdItUp1 on May 28, 2003, 04:49:21 PM
Do any of you have info on the IMAX version? Running time, etc, release date?
Post by: NinGurl69 *huggles on May 28, 2003, 06:01:36 PM
Post by: Grey Ninja on May 28, 2003, 06:15:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by: ThePerm
yeah the smith fight reminded me of the 100 marios demo..
Heh. It reminded me of the Vertex Shader test in 3DMark 2001.
Post by: Nintendo Gamecube on May 28, 2003, 06:41:10 PM
(SPOILER)
Let's start off with the cons, to just get it over with.
Cons:
-Rave seen was too long. They could've added it in, but it was just too damn long. Fifteen to thirty seconds would've been more than enough. Mixed in with the sex scene, I mean come'on. I was hoping to show this movie to my parents, but now I'll have to pass it by just because of this. (They are real strict when it comes to scenes like this).
-You could see the sometimes NEO was actually CGI
-When you could clrealy see all 100 Agents Smiths, you could tell that some looked different than the original. (That's because they have 6 doubles, and then all 7 were duplicated)
-More Twins. They did not have the Twins in the movie as much as they should have. I mean, I thought they were going to be the main villains.
Pros:
-Best fight scenes I have ever seen to date. I wish they would've used the 360 degree effect like in Matrix I. Agent Smith Fight and Car Chase were the two bests. The sword fighting was also incredible.
-Great Story (Many people I know argued that it was confusing, but I understood it all).
-BIGGEST CLIFF HANAR EVER
I just have one Q. When Neo fights, why doesn't he fight at the speed he flies?
Post by: Moonwatcher on May 28, 2003, 06:49:59 PM
I thought the movie was great but the fights were definately much...cleaner. They felt too nice, there was no real impact or pain. They looked cool as hell, but just a little too neat.
Post by: Termin8Anakin on May 28, 2003, 06:53:55 PM
Man, I've been trying to say somehting like this in my last post.
It was sort like watching Neo fight Morpheus for like 10 times longer.
More firepower, more bruteness needed.
The only 'gruesome' kill was the way Morpheus 'killed' the twins. That was bloody awesome, especially in slo-mo.
Post by: oohhboy on May 29, 2003, 03:36:10 AM
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Oh, you'd hit at least one of the Smiths. There's just so many of them.
Yeah, one down, a hundard more to go.
Quote
I just have one Q. When Neo fights, why doesn't he fight at the speed he flies?
He still needs to accerate apparently.
Post by: PaLaDiN on May 29, 2003, 09:32:30 AM
1% of the Zionites would still not accept the "real world". Which would mean there should be "the Two" somewhere. Because if the machines could just directly get rid of the people who don't accept the real world, there wouldn't be a Zion.
This is my theory...
The machines can't tell who doesn't accept the Matrix. So the One has two purposes:
a) To group them all together in the real world where they can be destroyed. Like a Recycle Bin.
b) To restart the Matrix because sooner or later the errors start to accumulate until it can't run anymore. Like a system crash is guaranteed when you run Windows 98 for too long... these errors are how the One was created in the first place, if I understand it correctly.
I think the only thing the Machines couldn't plan on this time was Agent Smith. He's the nasty virus that's gonna thoroughly wipe out your computer. And if you look at the Reloaded trailer, he's just as powerful as Neo by then, probably from sharing his blood.
