Topic: 360 Does What Xbox ... Waitaminute!

[RickPowers]

I was chatting with some good friends last night over drinks, and we were talking about Microsoft launching Xbox 360 this year.  At some point, we started talking about Xbox 360's features, and what it offers over the current generation Xbox.

1. DVD9 v. DVD.  Double the storage space, with the same media.  I'm not entirely sure that this couldn't be done on Xbox now, seeing as though dual-layer movies work just fine.  Still, I'm not sure how developers will fill all that space, but I'll grudgingly give a slight edge to 360 here.

2. Smaller form factor.  Considering that the first Xbox was a beast, this is certainly a bonus.  Still, not exactly a reason to buy one over the other.

3. HD Gaming.  This has been the war cry going back to GDC, and it's horsecrap.  Xbox can do HD games NOW.  In Microsoft's defense, I'm sure they don't just mean HD in terms of the spec, but in terms of graphical fidelity too, but that's why using a term like that is a bit dangerous.

3. Xbox Live.  Problem here is that there are documents going around saying that both version of Live will be compatible, and that being the case, I can't see how having Live on one console or the other offers an advantage.  It's a service, how could it possibly be measurably better on one machine versus another?  To maintain compatability, it can't.

4. Wireless Controllers.  This is pretty much the final answer.  All Xbox 360 truly offers is a first party wireless control.  Whoop-de-doo.

OurColony has been posting screenshots from various games, and it appears that Microsoft is banking on better graphics and a lot of smoke and mirrors to carry it through the next gen.  It certainly explains the avant-garde marketing push starting Pre-E3.  Thoughts?

[Pale]

I agree with you mostly.  I mean, the new system definately seems very blah, but I think it will work.  People want something shiny and new even if it doesn't play any better...

The one thing that is looking very good for Microsoft is the Mistwalker title.  It angers me that money truly does make the world go round... =P  But anyway, Blue Dragon looks to have a lot of potential, specifically in Japan, and I'm worried its gonna further hurt the end of the Gamecubes life cycle...

[Ian Sane]

I never thought about Live in that manner before.  It's like PCs.  Limitations in the intial PC designs have had to remain for compatibility purposes.  So MS is stuck.  If they rehaul Live they can't keep it compatible with the first Xbox and if they stick with something for both they're stuck in a dated design.  Nintendo for example could release an online service that just blows the crap out of Live and MS potentially would have to risk dropping Xbox compatibility in order to match it.

I think the biggest problem with the 360 is that the Xbox will be at most only 4 years old when the 360 launches.  The standard rule of next generation consoles is that the previous generation should be at least 5 years old.  The Xbox still has potential that they're ignoring in favour of a new console.  Imagine if the N64 was released a year earlier.  Yoshi's Island, Chrono Trigger, DKC2, and Super Mario RPG might have never existed.  Had the N64 launched in 1995 those games would have been released after the N64 launch or shortly before.  Therefore the teams working on them might have been working on an N64 game instead and the SNES would have missed out on some of its greatest games ever.

The Xbox is on a roll.  The greatest Xbox games ever could have been released within the next year.  But because MS is jumping the gun we're probably going to lose something.  There's a time where it's still too soon to retire a console but the devs are familiar enough with it that they can bust out great things that no one thought possible.  That time for the Xbox is NOW and it's being wasted.

Plus one of the Xbox's biggest advantages is gone.  The Xbox was the hardware beast of this generation.  It had the "best" hardware and that gave it an advantage.  The 360 will only have that advantage for a few months.  The Rev and PS3 are likely going to cream it because of the extra time.  Plus Sony gets the biggest jump from jaggy 2000 hardware to cutting edge 2006 hardware.  Sony is likely going from worst hardware to best while MS is going in the exact opposite direction.

Oh and the Dreamcast was released four years after the Saturn.  MS obviously isn't Sega but it's an interesting parallel.  It didn't take long for the newer consoles to make the Dreamcast look pretty dated.

[Savior]

Xbox is thinking PS2 with the 360 but acting more like the Dreamcast... So its either going to be hugely succesfull, or flop in a year.

It all depends on the games really

[vudu]

Quote
It all depends on the games really

Dreamcast didn't fail because of the games.  It failed because Sony killed all hype for the system.  If Sony can do it again, I'd be really surprised.

[Grant10k]

What they really should do is simply charge the same amount for Xbox Live and some sort of improved version of Live that isn't compatible with the previous Xbox, and let people log in using the same account. That way no one is worried about not renewing their Live account. They can just log in to the new improved Live360 as they normally would have done with Live.

[Savior]

1.Lack of EA, 2.Lack of Square soft, 3.GTA 3


If Xbox has the games, they wont suffer Dreamcasts fate.

[killthenet]

This is probably why Nintendo are chasing Sony rather than Microsoft, the difference in spec between the 360 and Revolution will be pretty huge,  especially considering it's a Nintendo machine, in which everything runs in total harmony.  I'll probably buy a 360, but if it doesn't impress me with it's software, then i'll definately consider selling it when the Rev and PS3 launches come round.

[ThePerm]

So ity seems microsoft is set out to dreamcast itself and sony and nintendo are pretty much working out like they would have had microsoft never existed

[trip1eX]

The million dollar question.  I don't know.  MS has alot more money than any console maker ever.  So I imagine the hype on the 360 will be huge.  But what do they always say?  It depends on the games.  Maybe a big breakout hit will sell it.  Also it looks like the xbox will have some abilities to stream audio and video from the pc among other stuff.  So depending upon the launch games and the hardware features and how soon after the competition's consoles launch and their features, I might buy one.  

The consoles would have a pretty good resale value so I don't think you'd be out a whole lot if you bought one and then changed your mind.  

I tend to think the 360 won't be that impressive at launch if you don't have hdtv.  And aren't on xbox live.  Which is 90% of americans and 90% of current xbox owners.

Also if the games are project gotham 3 and Halo 3 and sequel to all these other games that I've just played recently I ain't about to buy one.  There's got to be some new big hits.

 

[PaLaDiN]

"Also if the games are project gotham 3 and Halo 3 and sequel to all these other games that I've just played recently I ain't about to buy one. There's got to be some new big hits."

That doesn't matter. Halo is selling like Mario should be... Microsoft could probably afford to milk it again next gen.

[Don'tHate742]

But if they expect Halo to carry the system like it once did, they're in for a big surprise.

They need a new debuting, period.

[nemo_83]

The visual step between Xbox and X360 looks like the step between the 32X and the Saturn.  There is no way they will have Halo 3 ready for launch.  Maybe the rummored Halo 2.5 port.  The important games will be PD0 and Banjo Kazoo3, if RARE still has the magic; for the development of those characters involved Nintendo and not just RARE and because of that they are very much more franchise ready than Master Chief as MS' face to the mainstreme.

MS's HD revolution is full of sh!t.  All it means is more crisp textures which is sort of a given on all three next gen systems.  Plus the shimmer effects make everything look PCish and plastic.

I predict REV will be focused on cel shading and real time lighting more than bump mapping.  Plus who would want LIVE when you can play the best multiplayer games on the face of the earth, Nintendo games, for free online on REV.

Graphics though may matter least in deciding which system has the most potential for game software depending on what kind of controllers the companies show at E3.



Presently MS seems to be banking on PS2 owners looking for a new console this year more than Xbox owners.  I would love to see Sony do a face plant right to third place next generation.    

[Caillan]

The 'HD generation' thing was exactly what developers didn't want to hear. Luckily it was a conference for Game Developers, not Game Publishers, and Microsoft was told so accordingly.

I think Microsoft has the wrong strategy. Most of their audience seems to be casual gamers who aren't going to jump at an early launch, especially if there's not a really noticable improvement over that last generation. Of course there'll be hardcore gamers who buy it the first day it launches, but I doubt they're as plentiful as those who'll buy Nintendo's or Sony's console. Few are going to mind waiting a few months for the Revolution or the PS3 if they're much better. Having said that, Microsoft have successfully hyped Halo, so they can successfully hype anything.  

[KDR_11k]

I predict REV will be focused on cel shading and real time lighting more than bump mapping.

There's one term that encompasses cel shading, bumpmapping and perpixel lighting: Shaders. The Rev WILL do Shaders and it will do them well, just like the other two. Ati isn't stupid, Nintendo isn't stupid, Shaders are basically par for the course nowadays.

Bloodworth: I felt the same way about Windows XP. "Why would I want to switch?"

[Famicom]

I have parallel thinking with Ian and another forumite who posted a similar topic in the Rev forum, in that MS might be selling themselves short by launching a new console this year. It really does feel like all the great games we were promised at launch are finally starting to roll out, and it's just too soon for a new gen. Those I have spoken to who know the basics of what Xbox 360 is supposed to be about don't seem all that impressed, but those who just see 'new Xbox coming out' are ready to lap it up. For MS's sake, their MTV and E3 presentation better have some incredible games or they might lose those fans too.

And in the future, I hope ALL the companies really consider lengthening the console gens to a solid 6 years. Capcom showed us how far the Cube can go, so why not let others get enough time to get the chance to?

[BigJim]

The "Dreamcast" debate is something I'd be interested in hearing Rick's comments on.

The argument MS makes is that by launching early, they're basically pulling a PS2 by getting a headstart. But could they be possibly pulling a Sega by cutting off the current generation before the market is ready to move on? (IS the market ready to move on?)

[Ian Sane]

"The argument MS makes is that by launching early, they're basically pulling a PS2 by getting a headstart."

The problem with that plan is that the PS2 getting a headstart wasn't a planned strategic move; it was a complete fluke.  Much like how the Playstation attracted an insane amount of third party because Sega and Nintendo both made incredibly retarded decisions at the same time the PS2 only had a headstart because the competition screwed up.  The PS2 has launched exactly when it was expected to, five years after the Playstation was released in North America.  Sega killed the Dreamcast at pretty much the exact same time that the N64's releases dried up.

Sony didn't have any control over this.  It's just dumb luck that Sega went third party at the same time Nintendo left the N64 for dead.  It was a mistake for Nintendo to allow that lag period to happen in the first place just like it was a mistake to go with cartridges.  It's Sega's and Nintendo's fault that Sony had their precious head start.  Sony once again benefited off the mistakes of the competition.

MS has no such luxury.  Nintendo might (though I hope not) make the same mistake twice and have another lag period between the Cube and Rev.  But Sony will make no such mistake.  The PS2 will remain a relevant console until after the PS3 has launched.  There will be no lag in the PS2 release schedule and thus there will be no period for MS where they're all alone.  Sony didn't have a "Sony" to compete against when they launched the PS2.  Microsoft does.

[stevey]

"Nintendo might (though I hope not) make the same mistake twice and have another lag period between the Cube and Rev." NO nintendo is going to make game up to the lanch (zelda) and after the lanch (mario 128) because it backward c. Just like the xbox is(copy cat).
Nintendo dosen't care about xbox intel it big in japan that it not. 1/1000 of the numbers of sony or nintendo, sega die in japan (for no goods reson but the matix was only on dvd and the ps2 was the cheepest player) first than the us (from nothing more than hipe when every game was AAA+++ good but shuffle)and the same from xbox they wont run out of money but bill dosen't like to lose money.If there no kill app and final fasty come on other consles (I hear of a xbox ff)

[BlackNMild2k1]

Quote
Originally posted by: stevey
"Nintendo might (though I hope not) make the same mistake twice and have another lag period between the Cube and Rev." NO nintendo is going to make game up to the lanch (zelda) and after the lanch (mario 128) because it backward c. Just like the xbox is(copy cat).
Nintendo dosen't care about xbox intel it big in japan that it not. 1/1000 of the numbers of sony or nintendo, sega die in japan (for no goods reson but the matix was only on dvd and the ps2 was the cheepest player) first than the us (from nothing more than hipe when every game was AAA+++ good but shuffle)and the same from xbox they wont run out of money but bill dosen't like to lose money.If there no kill app and final fasty come on other consles (I hear of a xbox ff)

huh??  hey stevey, buddy, take a breath in there somewhere.

that is a jumbled mess of misspellings & extra long quotes, with no spaces, incomplete sentences, bad abbreviation & no paragraph breaks.
thats make for really hard reading.  

[WuTangTurtle]

wait so is it official that xbox 360 is going to have backwards compatibility?

[Deguello]

No.  I think he just meant LIVE compatibility.  Like... the service.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Xbox 360 can do well with its earlier launch, as long as it has significant variety at launch and the expected hype machine.  The support from various Japanese RPG developers is a good start, but it is sounding like those games are still early in development.  Heck, MS is so intent on getting its system out way ahead of its ocmpetitors that we may see a premature launch a la DS or GC.  Except the new Xbox will be $250+, likely diminishing the "Christmas effect" Nintendo DS benefitted from.  I'd say that desperate GameCube-only owners might get the Xbox 360, except I have predicted a slim launch line-up--which is exactly what Nintendo fans would be buying a new system to avoid.

I pretty much agree what with most said about the appeal of the casual PS2 and Xbox owners.  Those who hold off will likely get a PS3 or (if Nintendo has something truely novel that appeals to the general public) the Revolution, and will not look back to the Xbox 360 until MS slashes its price.  That's why the first year will make or break the Xbox Next.

[couchmonkey]

I think Microsoft has positioned itself fairly well, actually.  It's true that there aren't any new "killer" features (so far) and the system is coming up early, but if it has the games, people may decide to switch.  If I was a PS2 owner that hadn't bought any other systems in five years, I might just consider this new Xbox.  It will come down to the games Xbox offers and how well MS markets them.  Also how much of a head-start it gets.

I think it is definitely a gamble.  Microsoft is in an okay position to gamble though.  It's coming off a system that is in its prime (as opposed to the Dreamcast), Microsoft has tons of money (as opposed to Sega), and Microsoft has proven to be really good at marketing the Xbox (as opposed to Nintendo).  I think this gamble could pay off with a big chunk of Sony's former North American market, especially if Sony takes a whole year to release the PS3.

Of course, it could all go down the drain too.  With few new features and potential lack of interest due to an overly-early launch, who knows?  Personally, I'm definitely not interested right now, but if Nintendo allows a lot of lag next year, I might consider this system.  Then again, I might just try to finish a few of the 20 or so games I've barely played on my Cube.

[Galford]

Actually I kinda blame Sony for this.  They were talking about the PS3 back in 1999.  
The only reason MS is launching early, is Sony is launching in 2006.
MS learned their lesson last time, Sony will not have a year all to itself this time around.