Author Topic: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...  (Read 18446 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Khushrenada

  • is an Untrustworthy Liar
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« on: April 28, 2020, 02:29:37 PM »
Thought about resurrecting the old "Sony Getting Hit Hard Lately" thread but they're only partially involved. Seems to me that it would be more prudent to start a different thread highlighting some of the news from the competition of non-Nintendo developers. As much as Nintendo fans will complain about the products from Nintendo such as not having all the Pokemon in Sword and Shield or making Metroid Prime: Federation Force, there's a lot more crap happening on the other side of the fence. Lootboxes, unfinished products, Cooking Mama: Cookstar and more have contributed to a lot of developers looking pretty cruddy these days.

The latest disaster comes from Naughty Dog. Over the weekend, someone working on The Last of Us 2 decided to leak a lot of info and the game and spoil the major story beats. This has caused Naughty Dog to announce that they will be releasing the game very soon now in June. Meanwhile, the leak seems to have caused a pretty negative reaction from those who've read the details and the hype for the game seems to be deflating fast. As for why the leak was done, I haven't seen anything confirming it but it seems to be from a disgruntled employee (is there ever any other kind in a situation like this) who is either upset at Naughty Dog with-holding or taking their time in paying their staff, upset at the crunch-time of development, upset at the direction of the game and story and cancel-culture in Naughty Dog or all of the above.

The crunch time on Last of Us 2 development has already been reported on earlier and the article ended with this tidbit:

Quote
Yet there are also those developers, some of whom still work at Naughty Dog today, who say that there’s a part of them that actually wishes this game would fail. A critical flop might help show Naughty Dog that this isn’t the best way to make games, that this level of sacrifice isn’t necessary, that maybe the project isn’t worth losing all of these people. That perhaps, no matter how many Game of the Year nominations they win or how high their Metacritic scores climb, all the individual hairs on Joel’s eyebrows or the grains of sand in a burlap sack just aren’t worth the cost.

Welp, there's a good chance they may get their wish. However, with the way this has been leaked, I'm not sure the takeaway will be less crunch time so who knows how the fallout of this will play out. Jason Schreier, who wrote the Naughty Dog crunch story, posted this on Twitter yesterday: "Just catching up on this Naughty Dog story and man, no matter how angry you are about your workplace conditions or your pay or whatever else, leaking your whole game just hurts all the other people who were in the trenches with you. So many better ways to channel that rage". True enough.

What a mess.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 03:48:17 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 04:03:49 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Online Khushrenada

  • is an Untrustworthy Liar
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 05:39:34 PM »
On a different note, there is the oddity about today's Indivisible release with the publisher putting out an older version of the game missing features such as co-op and New Game+. There was no promotion of the launch and people who backed it on Kickstarter are now trying to get their codes to download the game since they weren't readied for this sudden release. Faint echoes of Cooking Mama: Cookstar in this but different situations between the two.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 05:55:41 PM »
On a different note, there is the oddity about today's Indivisible release with the publisher putting out an older version of the game missing features such as co-op and New Game+. There was no promotion of the launch and people who backed it on Kickstarter are now trying to get their codes to download the game since they weren't readied for this sudden release. Faint echoes of Cooking Mama: Cookstar in this but different situations between the two.

Suffice it to say that Indivisible wasn't the best-executed crowd-funded game in general. I played the PS4 version back when it came out last October, and it was missing several playable characters that were funded, modeled, & animated. The story also feels like it was thrown together at the last minute & held together by 2nd-hand scotch tape. I don't know if the missing characters were ever added back in like they were supposed to, but I doubt it since Shovel Knight was one of the characters and I would have seen something if he'd been put in. They only recently put out the Co-Op & New Game+ patch, 6 months after everyone stopped caring about Indivisible.

It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

I can recommend Indivisible, as kind of broken & utterly unfinished as it is, since the combat is genuinely entertaining...but that launch sale price should be the regular price.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 05:57:13 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Online Khushrenada

  • is an Untrustworthy Liar
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 05:59:24 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2020, 06:11:19 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?

No, they really did put out that DLC in a patch a month or two ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playtonic/yooka-laylee-a-3d-platformer-rare-vival/posts/2807593
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
Point taken though I still care about Indivisble. Valkyrie Profile gameplay with Skullgirls art. It’s like this game was made out of my dreams. I’m a little disappointed in the news since I crowdfunded it for $60, and I haven’t received an email regarding when I’ll get the game. As stated in the Talkback thread, I may just get the PS4 version. It was on sale not too long ago so I expect it to go on sale again before the end of the year.

Online Khushrenada

  • is an Untrustworthy Liar
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2020, 06:41:51 PM »
It's like Playtonic putting out that N64 Model DLC for Yooka-Laylee 3 years & 1 sequel after everyone played it: "cool, but who cares at this point?"

Did Playtonic actually do that or are you just trying to illustrate the Indivisible news in a different way to explain it?

No, they really did put out that DLC in a patch a month or two ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playtonic/yooka-laylee-a-3d-platformer-rare-vival/posts/2807593

Hahaha! Oh wow! I never heard that. I actually just started playing Yooka-Laylee. I had started it a couple months ago and but wanted to finish some other stuff and have just gotten back into the past two days. When I first played it, I did unlock the 64 tonic and tried it for a few seconds. I would say it gave me slight bemusement of seeing what this game could have looked like in the past but then I turned it off and went back to playing it in its HD glory. I just assumed it was always a part of the game. Definitely an irrelevant addition to be making years later. Nothing I would return to the game for to play through with. Weird. At least it shows Playtonic still cares about the product they've put out, I suppose.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline BeautifulShy

  • Shifting my body across the galaxy
  • Score: 79
    • View Profile
    • My streaming page.
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2020, 11:08:17 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
Alexis, she/her/Miss

Quote by Khushrenada in Safe Words 15.
Quote
I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2020, 11:19:55 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline BeautifulShy

  • Shifting my body across the galaxy
  • Score: 79
    • View Profile
    • My streaming page.
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 02:11:26 AM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.

So it is just the switching part and what happens in the story that caused the switch?
Maxi is dead. I killed him and took his posts and changed genders.
Alexis, she/her/Miss

Quote by Khushrenada in Safe Words 15.
Quote
I'm happy with thinking pokepal148 is just eating a stick of butter. It seems about right for him. I don't need no stinking facts.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 07:28:45 AM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

As for Schreier, he made a CAREER out of being the "press sneak ****" who reported leaks from developers, so his outrage here is more than a little suspect.

What about the story made you want to cancel your preorder?

Don't really want to go into it, but suffice it to say I didn't think anyone would be stupid enough to try to do Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again.

So it is just the switching part and what happens in the story that caused the switch?

That, plus the theme of the game is rather trite for this setting. Suffice it to say that I'm getting a real "Mass Effect 3" vibe from this game now, and I'd rather not go through that again. Combine that with the general mismanagement issues reported by Jason Schreier over there at Naughty Dog, and I think it's probably time for Sony to fire Neil Druckmann and reorganize management in general. It would be nice if they could get Amy Hennig back, considering Druckmann allegedly forced her out.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 03:59:39 PM »
So I looked up the spoilers to see what all the fuss was about.

Wow, I'm surprised Sony even allowed that in the first place.  Broodwars comparing it to Metal Gear Solid 2 and Mass Effect 3 is too nice if you ask me.  This game legit wants the players to outright hate themselves.  The first game took place in a miserable world but there was still a heart to it that engaged the player.  This game looks to be pure misery porn for those that enjoy being depressed. 

I guess you got to hand it to the director.

https://www.gamesradar.com/we-dont-use-the-word-fun-says-the-last-of-us-2-director-neil-druckmann/

When he said he didn't want players to have fun, he truly meant it.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 04:47:38 PM »
I've never played Last of Us and am not really that interested so I took a look at the spoilers at a high level.  That's like the sort of **** that damages the previous game in retrospect.  Ha!  That's terrible!  MGS 2 is a good comparison but I also get Alien 3 (movie, not game) vibes as well.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2020, 04:51:42 PM »
So I looked up the spoilers to see what all the fuss was about.

Wow, I'm surprised Sony even allowed that in the first place.  Broodwars comparing it to Metal Gear Solid 2 and Mass Effect 3 is too nice if you ask me.  This game legit wants the players to outright hate themselves.  The first game took place in a miserable world but there was still a heart to it that engaged the player.  This game looks to be pure misery porn for those that enjoy being depressed. 

I guess you got to hand it to the director.

https://www.gamesradar.com/we-dont-use-the-word-fun-says-the-last-of-us-2-director-neil-druckmann/

When he said he didn't want players to have fun, he truly meant it.

I didn't want to outright spoil the plot or cover my post in spoiler tags, so I was trying to be a bit vague.

But yeah, this yet another product where some pretentious asshole has decided he wants to take a beloved property and focus on "subversion" rather than giving the audience what they want or what they don't know they want. It's a vanity project that's probably sent actual Naughty Dog devs to the hospital. And the people making the game KNOW it's bad. Troy Baker gave an interview a month or so ago where he "hoped fans had an open mind", a phrase that's so often associated with quality.  :rolleyes:

And yes, Alien 3 is a good example, too.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 04:56:41 PM by broodwars »
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Online Khushrenada

  • is an Untrustworthy Liar
  • NWR Junior Ranger
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2020, 05:32:32 PM »
I cancelled my $80 Collector's Edition preorder after the leaks hit. Took one look at what Naughty Dog did with that story, and I wanted no part of it.

I'll be curious to see who Sony fires as a result of all this. Naughty Dog's management being incompetent is pretty open knowledge at this point.

You are not alone in that feeling. I'm not sure I've seen a positive comment about the spoilers yet. On my side, I've got no personal investment in this. I've never played the first game, had no intention to ever play it and never had any interest in the sequel. My interest is merely from the scandal of it all with someone willing to put themselves in hot water by releasing it and how much the fans seem to be rejecting the game from the leaks.

I do think it also shows some of the big issues in the business of Gaming. I think about how many years in a row after an E3, people would often comment on how so many games look the same. It's still an issue that pops up today with post-apocalyptic worlds or generic fantasy rpg number nine. For a long time, it was always about first-person shooters and how they all seemed to blend together. That problem still exists but it doesn't seem as pronounced as it used to be perhaps because of Fortnite and Overwatch changing up some of that aesthetic. In any case, all these similar products have often caused many gamers to complain about developers not taking risks or trying new things. Having taken some time to understand just what it is that people are upset about from the leaks, a part of me appreciates that a developer was willing to take some risks with a property and story particularly a costly big-budget "AAA" type game. That said, I totally get why people are put off by the plot being revealed. From my understanding and to put it in movie terms, it feels like this is an Aliens to Alien 3 situation. Has there ever been a case where that strategy has worked? EDIT: Dang it! I thought I was going to be the first to use the Alien 3 comparison but I took too long typing this all. Also thought referencing Alien 3 might be seen as a spoiler for people as I think it would be easy to correlate what that could mean as a reference. Taking a risk and having it fail, which seems to be where this outcome may be leading, could result in other companies using it as proof to keep playing it safe and churning out the same content. But that's why it is called a risk.

Going back to the budget part of it, that is another issue that this whole thing highlights. As Sony and Microsoft keep trying to push more and more powerful consoles from the PS3/360 to PS4/XB1 to PS5/SEX, so many third parties are killing themselves in trying to keep up in this graphics arm race. We haven’t posted much in the Games Industry Death Watch thread but so many developers were shuttered in the past decade from trying to put out a big HD game that flopped in sales and thus never recouped the cost of development. These long development times have also resulted in a lot of developers slowing down the output in the number of games they’ve released in this decade compared to the past decade. It has resulted in companies basically putting all their eggs in one basket with no back-up plan (aside from porting stuff from their back catalogue in between and hoping to create a bit more cashflow from that).

I think about film studios. There have been times that a movie went way over budget and had a huge troubled development. Sometimes, the studio was able to survive the release of the movie because box office sales were high enough and sometimes studios shuttered when they flopped. However, one advantage that movie studios have or had to survive even when films flopped that were expensive but not outrageously so like a Waterworld or Heaven’s Gate is that they also had other films to release during the year that could be profitable and make up for a loss from a different film. Usually a film studio shutting down was from putting out multiple stinkers in a row so that the losses piled up faster with nothing to offset them. If a game developer has multiple games releasing in the year then it may be that they can overcome some losses if they want to take a risk on some titles but when they put years and years into one title and it has to sell enough to cover costs of development and provide income for the next development cycle then I don’t see how taking any risks can be justified when it comes to the reception of the product.

From 2007 – 2020, we’ve seen Wii dominate as market leader then PS4 and now Switch has taken off. Two of those consoles were weaker in graphics than their competition. (The Nintendo ones obviously.) Graphics are nice but they clearly aren’t the deciding factor for a lot of people. With a larger userbase like Wii and Switch is getting, developers have the potential to sell a large amount of product and they can do so without trying to be on the cutting edge of graphical prowess. With how the industry has gone in the past 15 years, Iwata’s decision that Nintendo was not going to try and pursue a graphics arm race with the competition is looking more and more like one of the best business decisions the company ever made. By cutting down on development time from trying to push a new standard gaming graphics, developers could start lowering the costs sunk into games which could allow them to take more risks and maybe even churn out a few other crowd pleasers in the same generation to help mitigate some risk.
Whoever said, "Cheaters never win" must've never met Khushrenada.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2020, 05:58:26 PM »
Videogames were a lot better before big corporations discovered they were a thing.  In the past you had classic games being made by a handful of guys, sometimes literally in a basement if they were just starting out.

But that was going to happen eventually because videogames are too much damn fun to remain a niche hobby so they were going to eventually generate revenue that would interest the corporate world.  And improving the hardware was the most obvious way to justify a new console or to help new PC or arcade games stand out so eventually it was going to get to the point that the amount of work involved would require large movie-sized teams and large budgets.  It's annoying that we're there now but we were going to end up here no matter what.  I feel Iwata was just pushing back on the inevitable, stretching out as much time as possible for Nintendo before the market would demand that they make big budget games as well.

Offline nickmitch

  • You can edit these yourself now?!
  • Score: 82
    • View Profile
    • FACEBOOK!
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2020, 08:17:30 PM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?
TVman is dead. I killed him and took his posts.

Offline Adrock

  • Chill, Valentine
  • Score: 138
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2020, 08:22:13 PM »
The Last of Us Part II‘s plot twists may have worked out better if people played it instead of read some spoilers. Thematically, I understand what Naughty Dog was going for even if I don’t necessarily agree. Admittedly, I’m not that invested in the IP so I’m not upset either way nor do I particularly care. I know what happens in the original and it didn’t really seem like a game that needed or even lent itself to a follow up (my understanding is Joel saves Ellie and and potentially ends any chance at finding a cure to the infection). With that ending in mind, I didn’t get the impression Naughty Dog was merely trying to subvert expectations. A better move would have been to just not make a sequel. That wasn’t going to happen because Sony likes money so zagging when everyone expects you to zig isn’t the worst idea. You just have to zag in a way that resonates with people, and maybe not get leaked all over the internet.
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?
Developers have to form unions and/or people have to stop buying games from developers forced into crunch. Send a message to publishers that crunch is unacceptable. That’s a lot of organizing which makes it unlikely so yeah, the answer is to form unions.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2020, 08:30:34 PM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?

I've worked in the games industry in a minor, QA, capacity, so I'm not about to say it's realistic that we can ever really get rid of crunch. However, the amount of crunch that has to be done can be managed by having competent management with a clear development plan and realistic goals that take into account that the train's going to derail at some point. If your plan bakes in time to get the train back onto the tracks, you can minimize crunch.

The problem is that the inmates run the asylum over at Naughty Dog, so the only solution I can think of is for Sony to fire the management and restructure the company. There's just too much of a perfectionist, direction-less culture there right now, and I suspect that they aren't as profitable as Sony wants people to believe they are. Sony had to bail out both Uncharted 4 & The Last of Us 2 with significant delays when they languished in development hell for years, and even despite that the crunch was still horrendous.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Luigi Dude

  • Truth Bomber
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2020, 10:43:07 PM »
I feel Iwata was just pushing back on the inevitable, stretching out as much time as possible for Nintendo before the market would demand that they make big budget games as well.

I'd say the Switch shows Nintendo is still fine doing there own thing.  Nintendo software sales are higher then ever right now even though their own games aren't trying to be AAA movies like the top sellers on other systems.  I mean the closest Nintendo has in terms of production value would be Breath of the Wild, but even then, the story and voice acting is much smaller then what other open-world games are offering.  But despite that, the gameplay is selling the game in a way no other Zelda has sold before.

So Nintendo shows there is a successful middle ground between dirt-cheap smartphone games and mega-expensive AAA games.
I’m gonna have you play every inch of this game! - Masahiro Sakurai

Offline ShyGuy

  • Fight Me!
  • *
  • Score: -9660
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2020, 09:53:58 AM »
I read the spoilers. This sounds like trash.

Offline broodwars

  • Hunting for a Pineapple Salad
  • Score: -1011
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2020, 10:18:41 AM »
So, apparently the reason why The Last of Us 2 was leaked has come out on reddit: apparently, Naughty Dog had contractual bonuses for the game that would be released 6 months after launch. However, the game kept getting delayed at the last minute & then Covid-19 broke out, resulting in furloughs. Allegedly, the leaker went to management requesting an advance on their bonus to help them support themselves during the Covid-19 furlough. Management not only denied this request, but threatened them with termination.

The punch line in all this is that, again allegedly, the senior staff at Naughty Dog (including Neil Druckmann) had all previously requested and received advances in their bonuses. In order to force ND to release the game and open up the bonuses, the leaker released the game online.

As noted, this comes from reddit so take it with a grain of salt, but it lines up with what we know about ND's corporate culture. I've said it before, but Sony needs to fire the management over at Naughty Dog & rebuild the company.
There was a Signature here. It's gone now.

Offline Ian Sane

  • Champion for Urban Champion
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2020, 11:39:10 AM »
So, what's the fix for "crunch culture"?  I've seen people want to see an end to that and better treatment for developers, but what's really the fix?  You can't work on a game forever, that doesn't work because you need some revenue to keep things going eventually.  Publishers could raise the price on games, a suggestion I've seen, which would make sense because it reduces a lot of risk if the demand for the game evens out.  The market already doesn't like the DLC model and the "episodic content" model also didn't seem to pan out, so the thing that makes the most sense is to raise game prices.  Games could also try to cut costs by reducing the scope of big titles.  Does a "AAA" game need so many hours of 4K content?

I'm basing this on PC game development since console development historically was largely Japanese so we don't get as many behind-the-scenes in English about them.  Anyway, if you go back to game designed by small teams and they'll often talk about putting in 16 hour days and sleeping at the office and such to get the game done.  But this is a small team of people passionate about the project so you get the sense that putting in this much time is somewhat voluntary.  Like this is their baby and if they don't work on it it doesn't get done.

I wonder if some of that just remained as the companies grew.  So it starts as the founders putting in crazy hours.  Then it's the founders and a handful of employees that they've become friends with and then eventually it's a huge company with all sorts of employees that have no real creative input into the game that are to just do what they're told.  It goes from volunteering to asking your friends to help you out to mandating crunch time from employees that you don't even necessarily know.

I haven't done game development but I have made a few indie films and I've put in crunch time on those, simply because if I didn't it would drag it out for months or even years.  Now I haven't made other people do that but I also haven't had anyone to boss around either.

And of course if other teams are doing crunch time then you're that developer where games take twice as long to develop as everyone else.  It's the competition of it.  You can't take twice the time or have games with half the production values and expect people to buy your game over others.

Offline ejamer

  • Does he even know Khushrenada?!?
  • Score: 24
    • View Profile
Re: Meanwhile, Over At The Other Developers...
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2020, 03:31:15 PM »
Some crunch time is probably inevitable, and not such a big deal when people are rewarded appropriately with time and money afterwards.

Continuous crunch time is a real problem though, and usually an indication that management has no clue what they are doing. Something on the project has to go significantly off-track, whether that's over-promising for content and delivery times or actual development issues that couldn't be easily foreseen.


That said, I feel like games being increasingly large and complex makes the whole development cycle more taxing. Teams are larger and more spread out, and the likelihood of unexpected problems cropping up during development are much higher also. Trying to accurately scope the time and resources that a large project will need is really difficult, and when mistakes happen it can affect a lot of people depending on how much pressure the company is under to live up to early commitments.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 03:32:58 PM by ejamer »
NNID: ejamer