Topic: Episode 238: RFN Backstage Assault!

[Yoshidious]

More 3DS, more Pokemon, more cult favorite Wii games, and a secret RetroActive?

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/25989

It's time for another action-packed episode of your favorite Nintendo podcast! James is up first in New Business with After Burner Climax, Ridge Racer 3D, and Protect Me Knight. Jon has an update on Pokemon Black/White and even claims to have made progress in Chrono Trigger. Greg wraps up Pilotwings Resort and launches a roundtable discussion on Mega Man X, which just hit Japan's Virtual Console. Both Jonny and James celebrated this event by digging out the Mega Man X Collection for GameCube, which also prompts some hardware impressions of the famous and wildly overrated Hori Digital Controller. After an extensive MMX conversation that could probably qualify as an impromptu RetroActive in its own right, Jonny concludes the segment with brief but damning observations on Fragile Dreams for Wii.

After a quick break, we jump into your fantastic Listener Mail. Topics include old games that may never be released again, specifics on 3DS implementation for DSiWare, the future of wrasslin' games on a certain new handheld, and the possibility of patches for buggy games like Tom Clancy's (TM) Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars.

RetroActive properly returns next week with Legend of the Mystical Ninja (SNES) -- be sure to play it for yourself and leave a few comments in the official forum thread! It's available worldwide on Virtual Console.

[Retro Deckades]

When I saw the "Secret Retroactive" tag line, I immediately thought it would be Gradius (or at least it's first level).

[happyastoria]

Jonny, I am surprised you didn't like Fragile Dreams. It makes me kind of sad.

Also, how can you say the character designs were ugly?! You're on crazy pills, man.

[Jonnyboy117]

The main character, Seto, is a teen boy wearing some kind of bell-bottom vinyl dress with a huge man-purse (or fanny pack) hanging around his neck in front. Maybe this is normal in the world of anime androgyny, but it's still terrible character design.

[happyastoria]

The main character, Seto, is a teen boy wearing some kind of bell-bottom vinyl dress with a huge man-purse (or fanny pack) hanging around his neck in front. Maybe this is normal in the world of anime androgyny, but it's still terrible character design.

Ugh, it's called style, Jonny. 

[Jonnyboy117]

Matters of fashion taste aside, I'm interested to hear what you actually like about Fragile Dreams. I found the old NWR forum thread about the game, and despite many months of hype, it appears that most of the people in that thread were disappointed after actually playing the game.

[happyastoria]

Fragile Dreams has many problems, but the story, atmosphere, and art direction more than make up for it. The voice acting is pretty good, and yeah, the guy who voices Seto sounds kinda cheesy, but I still enjoyed it.

What I love about the game is the little objects you find scattered around and how each of these object reveal a story, almost like a poem. I can go on but it's a bitch to write this on my phone, lol.

[Jonnyboy117]

I agree that story, atmosphere, and art design are the game's best assets. I disagree, heartily, that they offset the mechanical problems or that they are particularly noteworthy. I stopped reading or listening to the "memories" after a while, because they weren't written or voiced well enough to hold my attention.

[Enner]

Blargh. So picky with your writing and acting. I kid. I regularly indulge in anime and anime-ish stuff and I admit there are shortcomings in the base material. That's not getting in to localization troubles or (sub)culture shocks.

The main character, Seto, is a teen boy wearing some kind of bell-bottom vinyl dress with a huge man-purse (or fanny pack) hanging around his neck in front.

Looking at the art assets that are on site, it looks like the pack is attached to belt harnesses that go over the shoulder and around the side to connect to a back bag. As for the long blue outfit, I assume it gets chilly in the post-apocalypse and this was the way have an extra layer around his torso and thighs. That, or maybe this was the best he could find and got attached to it. Hmm, I must be far off the deep end if I make no objection to the fact that a boy is practically wearing a blue dress with a skirt. Even farther off that I think said dress looks a bit cute and looks a bit cute on him. Heh, a cute, creepy and melodramatic post-apocalypse story. I have yet to play the game but I imagine my guess as to its narrative isn't drastically far off.


I really enjoyed the Mega Man X discussion. I hope it makes it to North America's Virtual Console. I've never played much of the Mega Man X or the X series. Most of my Mega Man experience has been Mega Man 6, Mega Man Zero 1, and Mega Man Zero 4.

[Traveller]

Also just to note. In Pokemon you can click on the new attack to see its stats.

[KDR_11k]

I don't recall having to use the shotgun ice charge move to get any E tanks in MMX. Let's see if I can remember them:

Storm Eagle: Use one of those cannon pillars to ride up to a tower, smash the glass and get the tank. (BTW, I'm pretty sure it's the airport that disables the powerplant, you see some debries from the airship at the end scattered in the plant)
Flame Mammoth: In a large room (after the buster upgrade IIRC) jump to the left wall and climb up until you reach the destructible blocks.
Spark Mandrill: Take the lower route at the start and use the boomerang to collect the tank.
Armored Armadillo: Drop to the left of the big mining machine and collect it.

Didn't use it for any heart tanks either:
Chill Penguin: Smash an igloo with a charged buster shot (or was it the flamethrower?)
Launch Octopus: Destroy the second ship and explore the cavern inside the crater it creates.
Storm Eagle: Boost-jump off the first platform lift to the left.
Armored Armadillo: Outrun the drilling machine enough and smash the ceiling with the helmet upgrade.
Boomer Kuwanger: Use the boomerang.
Flame Mammoth: Kill Chill Penguin first, walk across the lava.
Chameleon Sting: Before the falling rock tunnel/armor upgrade drop down into the hole, break the wall on the right and then boost-jump to the upgrade. Requires killing Launch Octopus first to make the water appear.
Spark Mandrill: Boomerang or just a well timed boost jump.

I used an ASCII pad back in the day, autofire really helped with many of the enemies in MMX.
The shotgun ice charge shot seems like it could have helped to get the buster upgrade early but you need the buster upgrade if you want to use it... Also it's pretty assholish that they give you the buster upgrade just before you fight a boss that you want to hit with the lv2 charge shot in his very short vulnerability window (I learned recently that a normal shot fired during the dash move will deal double damage...). BTW, Zero dies whether you have the buster upgrade or not. I guess they just wanted to show those special weapon charge shots off without praying that everybody grabs the hard to get buster upgrade capsule.

BTW, talking about Little Nemo, was I the only one who initially thought Disney made the movie?

[farnham]

The attitude in the discussion about fragile dreams enraged me.

James made it clear in his review that the game is not for everyone. And some of the complaints that Johnny mentioned were legitimate (although James clearly warned anyone interested in the game about those aspects in the review). Indeed the silent hill and resident evilesque control scheme is not adequate anymore after RE4 and even aside of that the combat system is just plain bashing with sticks ie very boring

Yet i feel that a lot of the charming aspects were just degraded as.. strongpoints that only people that like "anime ****" would be interested about and any objections from james were just shut down by johnny in the end with a simple "i dont want to talk anymore about it". It feels like a conversation between friends that have different tastes and dont want to fight over it in sake of their friendship. but this is a podcast and i believe discussions over the pros and the cons are very important. especially as nobody outside of james actually cared for this game (which is very sad. i love tricrescendo and i loved the game as well)

Especially the mentioning of the bad writing or the horrible voiceacting got me wondering. I dont remember many games that moved me as much as fragile dreams did in some instances (the scene with the PF "dying" or the background story of various other characters as well as the background story of small objects in the game or in general how seto was left alone again and again and again). also this game has a dual language option and i still played it in english because i thought the english voiceacting was really good.

I dont demand anyone to like this game. I think it has flaws and I believe that it caters to a small portion of the world population. but degrading anyone that likes this to anime nerds liking anime **** and not even wanting to discuss the game after shitting on it is just going to far imo

[Jonnyboy117]

I would have discussed Fragile Dreams for longer, but our segment was running quite long, and I was afraid that the more I talked about it, the more negative it would go. The phrase I used, hastily, was that you might like this game if you are "a whore for anime ****, like James." This was meant to be a personal jab at a friend, not an actual generalization.


I think numerous comments made on RFN have established my skepticism of anime and its brand of storytelling and character design. I also think most anime is poorly localized for English audiences. However, I am not strictly opposed to anime. I've seen every Miyazaki film and a couple of other Studio Ghibli films as well. I also enjoy some other anime films like Metropolis, and one of my favorite movies as a kid was Unico: The Last Unicorn. I also like Dragon Ball Z, at least up to the Cell Saga (haven't seen beyond that). Some of my favorite video games are the Trauma Center series, which very much has an anime presentation.


There are elements of the anime style that bug me, and the go-to stable of English voice actors used in many anime are anathema to my ears. James has a much higher tolerance for these things, as we've previously discussed for games like Sky Crawlers. So, I apologize for not being clear that I was poking fun at James, rather than launching a blanket insult to anime fans.


One of the major impediments to my enjoyment of Fragile Dreams is that most of the story elements are not presented while you're actually playing the game. I wouldn't be so critical of the writing, maybe even of the voice acting, if they were incidental and offered while I was controlling Seto and doing other things. Instead, you go to a save point and begin scrolling through pages of voiced text, which is mandatory and requires pounding buttons to skip through. At this point, you are essentially reading a book, and Fragile Dreams doesn't meet my standards for that format.


So here's my experience with Fragile Dreams: I play for five minutes through a third-person adventure with poor controls and boring mechanics, then sit down for a break to read dull, out-of-context personal memories narrated in an annoying manner. Sorry, I'd rather read through The Road again, or just play a different game.

[happyastoria]

Jonny, you're crazy! First off, The Road is a masterful use of words; words so simple that you understand everything the second you read it. How can you insult that book? Ugh, secondly, I hate anime and I still enjoyed this game, unllike super meat boy which just leaves me flaccid everytime I play it.

[farnham]

This is the scene i was talking about btw (mild spoiler alert)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybKsYzJ2z_M&feature=related#t=04m30s

you can judge by yourself if this qualifies as horrible writing, horrible voice acting, horrible presentation etc. etc.

also these are the short stories that were a big part of the narration in this game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmCL417L5K4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13vtK7iByPM&feature=related

once again i believe those are far from dull.. but whatever

[Enner]

Oh dear. It looks like more fragile nerves have been struck.

Jonny, you're crazy! First off, The Road is a masterful use of words; words so simple that you understand everything the second you read it. How can you insult that book? Ugh, secondly, I hate anime and I still enjoyed this game, unllike super meat boy which just leaves me flaccid everytime I play it.

  Hate is a strong word to level at a country's input in a medium where said input covers a vast array of genres and themes.

A little aside on the go-to stable of English VAs: While Fragile Dreams has VAs that I'm familiar with (Johnny Young Bosch being the most prominent), Sky Crawlers: Innocent Aces had voices that were new to me. I guess it doesn't matter much in the bigger auditorium of things since both games seem to have the same styles and pitches in their English voice work.

This is the scene i was talking about btw (mild spoiler alert)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybKsYzJ2z_M&feature=related#t=04m30s

you can judge by yourself if this qualifies as horrible writing, horrible voice acting, horrible presentation etc. etc.

Ah, the death speech. Always seems to take so long even after you would think they would be dead already. It is par for course as anime-ish stuff goes.
This scene reminds me of something very much like it. (WARNING massive Valkryia Chronicles spoiler)
Valkyria Chronicles cutscene - A Dream Interrupted

I don't recall any of the podcast hosts who have Valkyria Chronicles for the Playstation 3 in their backlog digging in to. As I said before when the game was mentioned, I look forward to their impressions and thoughts on the quirky game.

[NWR_Neal]

Not to ignite anything else, but Jonny's distaste for Fragile Dreams make me glad I never tried it. He confirmed every reservation I had.

It seems like the kind of game that some people adore, and the majority of people don't care for.

[farnham]

Not to ignite anything else, but Jonny's distaste for Fragile Dreams make me glad I never tried it. He confirmed every reservation I had.

It seems like the kind of game that some people adore, and the majority of people don't care for.

I dont really care if people like or dislike something i like or dislike. different people different tastes. simple as that.

but calling people that like anime "anime ****" is just crossing the line imo.

[farnham]

I would have discussed Fragile Dreams for longer, but our segment was running quite long, and I was afraid that the more I talked about it, the more negative it would go. The phrase I used, hastily, was that you might like this game if you are "a whore for anime ****, like James." This was meant to be a personal jab at a friend, not an actual generalization.

Just out of curiosity.

Nintendos games are mostly developed by japanese people. The art designer are often heavily influenced by "anime ****". Games like pokemon, zelda, kirby, donkey kong, mario, metroid all have that anime **** style all over them. the only games that are not really like anime **** are the realistic games (1080, wave race. although the illustrations for those games are borderline anime **** as well) and games that have simple styles like puzzle games or games with miis (which also feature a lot of anime **** googly eyes and super deformed porportions)

In other words, Nintendo games mostly feature art design that is essentially "anime ****".

why do you like nintendo games again ?

One of the major impediments to my enjoyment of Fragile Dreams is that most of the story elements are not presented while you're actually playing the game. I wouldn't be so critical of the writing, maybe even of the voice acting, if they were incidental and offered while I was controlling Seto and doing other things. Instead, you go to a save point and begin scrolling through pages of voiced text, which is mandatory and requires pounding buttons to skip through. At this point, you are essentially reading a book, and Fragile Dreams doesn't meet my standards for that format.

actually a lot of story fragments ar offered while you are controlling seto. there is a lot of stuff in the environment (drawings on the wall or abandoned shopping malls etc.) that makes you wonder about the events that happened or lead into a new section of the story.

There are elements of the anime style that bug me, and the go-to stable of English voice actors used in many anime are anathema to my ears. James has a much higher tolerance for these things, as we've previously discussed for games like Sky Crawlers. So, I apologize for not being clear that I was poking fun at James, rather than launching a blanket insult to anime fans.

the thing is.... you can just switch the japanese voices on.

[cricarra]

One of the worst podcasts in recent memory. The pokemon discussion was terrible. I'm not the EV/IV guys (Only ever played Red and Black) but a lot of the stuff you said just blew my mind. You guys dont know how to check the stats of the new move? Really? The evolution bitching? There is only one positive in not evolving a pokemon and the game DOES tell you. I also don't understand how the obssessive community can ruin your experience. That's just stupid. The annoying as **** fighting community has never taken away the fun of playing Street Fighter or any fighting game from me. I just play em the way I want and have fun. Pokemon is as simple or as complicated as you want it to be and you guys are trying to play it the complicated way even though you really wanna play it in the simplest form. It's your own fault not pokemons.

I also can't understand how you can bitch about Fragile Dreams story/character design but drool for anything and everything Final Fantasy and DragonQuest. My tastes and opinions usually never line up with Jonny and Jon/John so I'm not surprised, but it just bugs me when Greg and James don't throw in their two cents in and just let the conversation end with your opinion coming across as the final one that matters.

One a positive note I just realized three of you have J names wtf and hurray for a Zune marketplace feed.

[farnham]

One of the worst podcasts in recent memory. The pokemon discussion was terrible. I'm not the EV/IV guys (Only ever played Red and Black) but a lot of the stuff you said just blew my mind. You guys dont know how to check the stats of the new move? Really? The evolution bitching? There is only one positive in not evolving a pokemon and the game DOES tell you. I also don't understand how the obssessive community can ruin your experience. That's just stupid. The annoying as **** fighting community has never taken away the fun of playing Street Fighter or any fighting game from me. I just play em the way I want and have fun. I also can't understand how you can bitch about Fragile Dreams story/character design but drool for anything and everything Final Fantasy and DragonQuest.

yeah i dont even want to bitch about the pokemon stuff but man i loled when i heard that you supposedly cant check the new move.. james and greg seem to be the only ones that actually play pokemon casually while the rest probably just beat one or two gyms and said f. it im outta here.

the whole community discussion was astounding as well. i mean you have a great source to go to if you have problems with the game. beating the game is easy enough to do it without a source (as james mentioned you can grind your way through the elite 4 anyways).

also i believe having hardcore communities actually helps enjoy a game a lot. i play a lot of starcraft 2 and i enjoy watching pros play the game (GSL and stuff) to improve my own strategy. I know i will never be able to beat someone like Slayers Boxer. But I enjoy watching him play and emulate his style in my own ladder matches

I also can't understand how you can bitch about Fragile Dreams story/character design but drool for anything and everything Final Fantasy and DragonQuest. My tastes and opinions usually never line up with Jonny and Jon/John so I'm not surprised, but it just bugs me when Greg and James don't throw in their two cents in and just let the conversation end with your opinion coming across as the final one that matters.

 He just cut the discussion because "they had no time".

[Jonnyboy117]

Wow, misunderstandings abound.


happyastoria, I do not hate The Road and did not say that I did. I love that book and in fact have another novel signed by Cormac McCarthy.


farnham, you are focusing on a phrase that I already explained was a joke, aimed at James. As noted, I do not think that all anime is ****.


cricarra, I was not complaining about devoted fan communities or about games with a lot of depth and choice. I was saying that I often regret looking at detailed, nuts-and-bolts guides to games like Pokemon and Demon Souls because the complexity of their gameplay systems is intimidating and makes me second-guess how I play the game. Of course it's a good thing that such guides exist.


It's not really James's style to pick apart what someone else has to say, but he probably would have defended Fragile Dreams in more detail if we hadn't been running so long on that segment. However, as he and Greg noted on the show (at my expense), his praise and caveats for that game have already been laid out thoroughly in past episodes and in the NWR review.

[Crimm]

...and in every other review ever written about the game.

Ever.

In history.

It's like not knowing who won World War I.

[lolmonade]

  He just cut the discussion because "they had no time".

One of the worst podcasts in recent memory. The pokemon discussion was terrible. I'm not the EV/IV guys (Only ever played Red and Black) but a lot of the stuff you said just blew my mind. You guys dont know how to check the stats of the new move? Really? The evolution bitching? There is only one positive in not evolving a pokemon and the game DOES tell you. I also don't understand how the obssessive community can ruin your experience. That's just stupid. The annoying as **** fighting community has never taken away the fun of playing Street Fighter or any fighting game from me. I just play em the way I want and have fun. Pokemon is as simple or as complicated as you want it to be and you guys are trying to play it the complicated way even though you really wanna play it in the simplest form. It's your own fault not pokemons.

Nintendos games are mostly developed by japanese people. The art designer are often heavily influenced by "anime ****". Games like pokemon, zelda, kirby, donkey kong, mario, metroid all have that anime **** style all over them. the only games that are not really like anime **** are the realistic games (1080, wave race. although the illustrations for those games are borderline anime **** as well) and games that have simple styles like puzzle games or games with miis (which also feature a lot of anime **** googly eyes and super deformed porportions)

In other words, Nintendo games mostly feature art design that is essentially "anime ****".

lol.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I, too, have downloaded Mega Man X on the Japanese VC. I generally get burned every time I give Mega Man another try, but figured I hadn't really given Mega Man X a fair chance in the past. So far I'm moderately enjoying it, in spite of the problems you point out on the podcast (which apparently bother me more than they bother most). I find that I'm enjoying roughly half of the game a lot, and surviving through other parts. Like other Mega Man games, I find the level design to be too cynical at times. I suspect I'll grow fed up once I reach the castle stages, as I have with other Mega Man games. I don't like dying several times at bosses and then having to play an entire level over, particularly when I feel like I haven't learned anything about the boss patterns that I can bring forward to my next attempt. I don't like spikes of death, especially when sinisterly placed such as in the water level's mini-boss.

Anyway, yeah, It's a Mega Man game