Topic: Which Nintendo Franchise Needs A Reboot?

[Evan_B]

Reading through this thread, I realized the only good story Nintendo has ever made was Pikmin. Seriously.

Or maybe Duck Hunt.

In any case, while people seem to think Metroid Post-Fusion would be interesting, I think it would provide a bit of a conundrum. Metroid is at its best when Samus isn't engaging with intelligent life-forms, and Fusion ends with the potential threat of the Federation hunting Samus for her crimes. If you're gonna do Metroid(5), just bring it back to the feeling of loneliness and isolation. That's all I care about.

Also, I know several avid fans of the Golden Sun franchise hoping that series makes a comeback. I'd like Wario to make a return to (plat)form(ing), myself.

[rygar]

I would love to see a post-Martinet reboot of the Mario brother characters without the gabagool organ-grinding.

[ThePerm]

They could reboot Metroid. All they need is some sort of alternate reality excuse. It is sci-fi.
I would kinda like to see a very large scale Metroid game. Something with several planets.

[Luigi Dude]

In any case, while people seem to think Metroid Post-Fusion would be interesting, I think it would provide a bit of a conundrum. Metroid is at its best when Samus isn't engaging with intelligent life-forms, and Fusion ends with the potential threat of the Federation hunting Samus for her crimes. If you're gonna do Metroid(5), just bring it back to the feeling of loneliness and isolation. That's all I care about.

They could still do that in a post Fusion world.  Just make the story at the beginning that some new alien race on some planet is threatening the Galaxy and the Federation contacts Samus and offers to pardon her for her previous crimes if she deals with it.  Then the rest of the game would just be traditional Metroid set on a new world which can allow for some new gameplay and settings.  That would be the easiest way to move forward with a Metroid 5 without having to worry about the Federation drama throughout the game outside of the opening and ending.

[Adrock]

This thread is hilarious. I'm baffled anyone could so ardently defended Nintendo's no-fucks-given storytelling.

[Khushrenada]

Reading through this thread, I realized the only good story Nintendo has ever made was Pikmin. Seriously.

You know, that just made reflect a moment and I realized that the original Pikmin had a simple enough story but it was enlarged by having Olimar write a diary entry every night he was on the planet up to 30 days. Considering how often we hear Miyamoto as being opposed to story to the point that Koizuma's trying to sneak in story elements past him, in this case, he really opened up Pikmin to have a larger story or background story at least. I wonder what he'd say as to that decision these days.

[Evan_B]

I wasn't joking. Pikmin does have the best story.

[ThePerm]

This thread is hilarious. I'm baffled anyone could so ardently defended Nintendo's no-fucks-given storytelling.

Sometimes it's been pretty convenient for a better game. A lot of story lines were from a time when cinematic technology in games was really low. So, in order to not make the game horrible, they cut down.  How many times have Marvel and DC had to reboot their storylines because the writers wrote themselves into a hole?

[Luigi Dude]

This thread is hilarious. I'm baffled anyone could so ardently defended Nintendo's no-fucks-given storytelling.

As I already said in the beginning of the thread, most of Nintendo's games contain lighthearted standalone stories that basically reboot each game anyway.  We can argue for another 3 pages about every nitpick in the overall Zelda timeline again but even the individual stories in those games are mostly self contained as well.

Some people prefer Nintendo continue to stay with their gameplay first, story last approach to games since that's what makes many so great.  They're not constrained by some overarching canon everything has to fit into, they can just do whatever the **** they want.  Plus it's not like the rest of the industry is ahead of Nintendo in the story department.  Many of the major videogame storylines now a days are the usual generic Hollywood blockbuster **** in the West, or over-complicated anime **** from Japan.  Yeah Nintendo could try a little harder but it's not like the rest of the industry is pumping out masterpieces left and right either.

See this is what I should have said years ago.  If Nintendo was to reboot games like Zelda and Metroid to have a more constant overall storyline, that would be nice for the first game in said reboot but what about the second or third?  Eventually said franchises start to reach a point where things the developers want to do are going to conflict with certain plot points anyway which will require another reboot to stay consistent.  For a company like Nintendo that greatly specializes in gameplay first, I'd prefer they not have to constantly worry about how the gameplay they want to do might create some plot hole in some game they made over a decade earlier.  Especially as the rest of the industry shows, trying to care more about the story doesn't exactly result in these stories being good in the end, which makes many of these games end up wasting millions on said crap story anyway.

[Khushrenada]

I wasn't joking. Pikmin does have the best story.

I wasn't making jest of your post either nor did I consider it a joke. I think you may very well be right in this statement which is why I was agreeing and elaborating on how odd it is that Miyamoto would be in charge of making the Nintendo game with the best story.

When I think of anything that could possibly counter or top the story of Pikmin the only thing I can think of would be Super Mario RPG which I think triumphs still over the Paper Mario RPG's stories and would still be my favorite story in Nintendo games I've played. However, that story may be more due to Square Enix than Nintendo in which case Pikmin defaults back into the top slot.

[Adrock]

We can argue for another 3 pages about every nitpick in the overall Zelda timeline again but even the individual stories in those games are mostly self contained as well.

That's where we differ, I guess. I can't dismiss certain things as nitpicking. Placing a canon destroying plot-point right at the beginning of a series chronologically isn't a nitpick. It's bad storytelling. I don't expect Tolkien-level world building, but give a couple fucks maybe. Was anything really gained by Skyward Sword being first chronologically? Change a few things and it makes a lot more sense almost anywhere else.

Some people prefer Nintendo continue to stay with their gameplay first, story last approach to games since that's what makes many so great.  They're not constrained by some overarching canon everything has to fit into, they can just do whatever the **** they want.

Except Nintendo is constrained by an overarching canon. Adhering to it hurts the games now because Nintendo insists on having one. I'm taken out of a game when the plot causes me to say, "Wait, that doesn't make any sense." This isn't mutually exclusive. Nintendo can have fun gameplay and tell a good story. A story doesn't have to be epic, but it does have to be smart. If Nintendo is going to have a canon, respect the canon. Otherwise, don't have one. Everything would have been just fine if Nintendo said:

1. There's no Zelda canon. Some games have direct sequels, but overall, each game can exist as its own entity.
2. Metroid Prime is a non-canon side-story.
3. What's Other M? I have no idea what you're talking about.

Plus it's not like the rest of the industry is ahead of Nintendo in the story department.  Many of the major videogame storylines now a days are the usual generic Hollywood blockbuster **** in the West, or over-complicated anime **** from Japan.  Yeah Nintendo could try a little harder but it's not like the rest of the industry is pumping out masterpieces left and right either.

Dude, these are just excuses.

If Nintendo was to reboot games like Zelda and Metroid to have a more constant overall storyline, that would be nice for the first game in said reboot but what about the second or third?  Eventually said franchises start to reach a point where things the developers want to do are going to conflict with certain plot points anyway which will require another reboot to stay consistent.

That isn't even remotely true. Maybe Nintendo should stop fucking with prequels if it can't be bothered to respect over two decades of storytelling it insists is related.

[KeyBilly]

Interesting discussion about Zelda canon.  It reminds me of the issues people had with the official timeline in the Zelda book.  They laid out detailed reasons that it couldn't possibly be true.  For me, there is no problem with creating an underlying story that contradicts the older games in some ways.  It has to be done, because the old games were not likely made with the modern canon in mind and there would be conflicts regardless.

But, having a canon does make the games better.  The world is more immersive, and there are layers beneath layers that can only come with a long-form story being told over decades.  The same is true for TV, movies, and books.  With that said, I find deviations in post-canon games less acceptable.

Miyamoto has talked about being limited by story, but is it really so limiting?  I think that with creativity, developers can weave any new gameplay mechanics or dungeon designs into the Zelda world.  As with some other major franchises, I think they should have a small staff devoted to understanding the history of franchises and protecting the IP, similar to the teams at Disney or Ubisoft.  The developers wouldn't need to focus on those elements or just rely on memory.

[Evan_B]

I'm gonna say it one last time. Pikmin has the best story, so if you want to argue about ANY narrative, it should be Pikmin.

I acknowledge the Zelda timeline, but it's rare that the games actually build on one another, and when they do, it's often in a "this happened in one game before so we're bringing it back for this one" sort of tie-in rather than "THIS IS AN OVERARCHING THING THAT HAS TO HAPPEN IN EVERY ZELDA" and I prefer the former implementation. And honestly, getting all worked up about the Zelda chronology is time wasted in the first place, since every game focuses on telling a contained narrative anyway.

[ThePerm]

Also, the whole "It's a Legend" thing.

[pokepal148]

I wasn't joking. Link's Awakening does have the best story.

Ftfy

[Evan_B]

That's funny.

[KeyBilly]

I'm gonna say it one last time. Pikmin has the best story, so if you want to argue about ANY narrative, it should be Pikmin.

I acknowledge the Zelda timeline, but it's rare that the games actually build on one another, and when they do, it's often in a "this happened in one game before so we're bringing it back for this one" sort of tie-in rather than "THIS IS AN OVERARCHING THING THAT HAS TO HAPPEN IN EVERY ZELDA" and I prefer the former implementation. And honestly, getting all worked up about the Zelda chronology is time wasted in the first place, since every game focuses on telling a contained narrative anyway.

I do like Pikmin, so I won't argue with you there.

With Zelda, a lot of the canon consistency is subtle.  There are many small references to all sorts of things in previous games that most people would miss and wouldn't distract new players.  But, for those who are a bit too obsessed with the games, it is great and makes the world feel richer.  The only issue is when they throw one of these references in in a way that fans can recognize, but is just nonsensical fan service that contradicts Nintendo's own narrative.  Although, nonsense can be fun in the right dosage.

It would be easier on the timelines and better (IMO) if Zelda games didn't each have a doomsday scenario, where Link must save the world from imminent destruction.  The same is true for superhero movies and anime.

[ThePerm]

We could all just say Zelda has a continuity like The Matrix or Westworld. When things repeat... the order in which they repeat doesn't matter so much.

[Ian Sane]

Miyamoto has talked about being limited by story, but is it really so limiting?  I think that with creativity, developers can weave any new gameplay mechanics or dungeon designs into the Zelda world.

There are games that are so story focused that the gameplay is terrible or constantly interupted by cutscenes and I think Miyamoto has a point about that.  But I also think that he really sucks at stories and thus comes to the incorrect conclusion that a game can't have both a good story and gameplay.  Zelda's overall storyline is so full of inconsistencies that you figure Miyamoto can't describe his commute to work without leaving out some crucial detail or contradicting himself.  It's REALLY bad.

The thing is that Nintendo can have simple stories without them being incoherent.  And the idea that games can't have good gameplay and story is nonsense because there are plenty of games that do.

[ThePerm]

To be fair the games that Miyamoto has been hands on have had decent stories. Miyamoto is a really world creator too.

Wait till the Giant Robot game hatches into whatever it's actually going to be.

[MagicCow64]

My rubric is basically that story can be a pleasing additive to a fundamentally sound game, like good music, good UI, etc. And it can also be a detriment to a fundamentally sound game if it is bad and intrusive. Video game stories are bad and intrusive 90% of the time. An effective, diagetically sound story can add maybe a 5% shift in the overall value of the package and a bad, intrusive one can have a much more negative shift in the other direction.

So, in my book, focusing on it is an odds-on a recipe for a worse outcome. And how many fundamentally mediocre or bad games are actually redeemed by their narratives? It's hard to think of examples. Deadly Premonition? Eternal Darkness? Maaaybe Mass Effect 2?

Whatever criticisms one could have about any of the (thin) Zelda narratives, it's truly silly to give a **** about the overarching lore. There's no way to coherently include NES games and the like. Nor would it make sense to arbitrarily declare a point at which the games start "counting". So, enjoy the allusions as they come, ignore that art book Nintendo put out that one time with the ridiculous timeline. 

[pokepal148]

It would be easier on the timelines and better (IMO) if Zelda games didn't each have a doomsday scenario, where Link must save the world from imminent destruction.  The same is true for superhero movies and anime.

You mean like Link's Awakening?

[Stratos]

Gotta side with Pokepal. Pikmin had a fun story filled with neat minutia, but Link's Awakening is still better. It is possibly my favorite Zelda game.

[Evan_B]

Pikmin tells a better story without words than Link's Awakening attempts to do with repeated Owl interruptions. The Pikmin franchise even has a better overarching story if we're talking about a continuous narrative.

The only good thing Link's Awakening does is put the player's goals at odds with the island's survival, and even then, all of the island's inhabitants want you to awaken the Wind Fish.

[KeyBilly]

It would be easier on the timelines and better (IMO) if Zelda games didn't each have a doomsday scenario, where Link must save the world from imminent destruction.  The same is true for superhero movies and anime.

You mean like Link's Awakening?

Yeah, that is a good example.  The only thing that rubs me the wrong way is the "it was all a dream" ending, although the dream seems to be rooted in some things of consequence to the Zelda world.  It might be worth returning to the Wind Fish in another game.

Speaking of Pikmin, a Pikmin collection, or at least Pikmin 3 for a low price, would be good Switch titles.  I generally dislike ports, but so many people missed the Wii U that it would be nice to just port every first party title if it isn't too much work.  The "Wii Missed You" collection.