Author Topic: Switch Discussion Thread (Year 3: But where are the folders??!?!)  (Read 276688 times)

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Offline supermario2k

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #150 on: October 24, 2016, 10:20:58 AM »
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How will this console be so powerful and play the latest games and be the same price as an iPad that can play candy crush and angry birds? It just doesn't add up to me.



Please don't take this the wrong way but you can't look at what Apple does as an indicator of anything price related. They are like Cadillac, basically a Buick with fancier dressing you pay a premium price just for the Apple name alone. It has always been that way. Nintendo, as much as I love them, are far from a "premium" brand at this point.

Also just because Candy Crush is the most common game on the iOS doesn't mean it can't handle better games, maybe look at the actual App store before you pass judgment. I mean just saying.


As far as storage goes, I am not sure if it matters as much. 32GB is not enough, there is no denying that, BUT if this machine uses carts then the need for installs goes away, the whole reason for installs is to get the game into the RAM faster because the disc's take forever to load, that is the solution to the optical media problem. This does not have that problem so there is no need to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

That means nothing for patches though. I have a 1.5 TB drive plugged into my Wii U and that is a damn waste of space. I could have gotten by with a measily 250 GB and still had room to grow. My PS4 has 500 GB internal and I haven't even hit 25 percent yet.

If a person uses this as their only console and it is their only gaming option that would be an issue. But considering every system they have released since Wii supports SD cards there is no reason to assume this won't.

USB is not a solution hell it isn't even an option if this thing is supposed to be a portable. Not unless there is a way via I don't know the cloud or something to access the dock from when you are on the go but that sounds like a terrible solution.

Cloud storage is NOT GOOD either. Cloud is bad. Why? Because a portable device is going to be used at times and places where there is no internet access period. Gaming on the go doesn't work if you can not save your game locally and need internet, that would suck you play Zelda for 8 hours, make real progress but the internet is down and you can't save and then the battery dies and you lost everything. That won't work.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #151 on: October 24, 2016, 10:33:58 AM »
Cloud storage has benefits if you want to swap save files between multiple machines, and if it's optional. But I totally agree with the drawbacks mentioned above - I specifically don't want a console (especially portable) that relies on an internet connect to function, because I don't always have an internet connection available to me.


(This might not be an issue for many people though, especially if they don't plan to travel with the system. I could see it working fine if you only play games at home...)
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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #152 on: October 24, 2016, 10:39:51 AM »
Compression isn't a magic wand, the textures are already compressed as is sound unless you're incompetent like the Titanfall guys. With less RAM and overall power the Switch won't be running the same high textures saving space that way.

It is just that Day One patches, large DLC and download only games are here to stay. If Nintendo doesn't provide a good storage solution nothing else matters as yet again everyone would be constrained by storage sizes again.

64GB is quite low these days unless you are a phone, If that is just the internal storage and they provide an additional 64GB card to supplement it out of the gate then that might work as they wouldn't look too frugal.

Oh please for the Love of God ditch region locking.

As for Apple there is Apple Tax* and the fact the mobile space just don't have a market for premium games let alone "AAA" regardless of platform. Lack of physical controls and the near impossibility of breaking out is just salts the Earth.

Steam cloud storage is quite good. It is seamless and I can rely on it to work across an number of computer cross platform. Cloud storage would be nice for the Switch for when you get home on Wifi.

*Apple charges extra for three reasons 1. It's a luxury brand 2. It just works, iOS is very well optimised for the hardware they use even if on paper it is weaker. 3. People are willing to pay for it.
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Offline supermario2k

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #153 on: October 24, 2016, 11:26:33 AM »
Oohboy I was not talking about compression. These carts are likely to be 32GB right? If that is the case isn't that enough to store the game itself? What I meant is there won't be any need to install any portion of the game to the internal memory because the read/write speed between the cart is so much faster than a disc drive. That was the benefit of installs right to alleviate the long loading times? Patches and DLC is a different matter. For the base game if you don't have to have a 15GB install that leaves room on the internal memory for DLC and patches. So you don't need as much space.

To be clear the more space the better, if they can include 64GB standard and support for SD cards that would be enough. IF, again IF there are no mandatory installs which is what having carts should mean, I don't own a 3DS so correct me if I am wrong but are there mandatory installs on it?


Maybe Cloud storage is bad was the wrong words. I enjoy my cloud storage with PS Plus, what I meant is as a solution to not having internal storage it is bad. There needs to be an offline option if their solution is cloud that is not a solution that is more of a problem. Being able to store your games and saves in the cloud as an option is a good thing. I should have clarified.


Also one last thing, if the  games are carts doesn't that mean they themselves can be read/write so that they can have save states built in, further reducing the need for storage? I mean I am just trying to consider all angles here.


My thinking is if the carts are large enough to store the game and can have save states, I thought DS games were read/write for that purpose? Then if they eliminate the need for mandatory installs, that just leaves you will buying digital purchases and DLC. 64GB is managebale for that if they allow for SD as an option.

There is no need to offer you an SD card for free, seriously at this point who here doesn't have a damn stack of these lying around? Isn't 32GB basically the standard SD card size with 64 and 128 very small premiums? If they offer 64GB out of the gate and can expand with SD cards most people who already have other devices already have 32GB SD cards, right?

bnmild your dream of dual SD cards would be perfect solution, I don't see why they can't do that.
Obviously the more storage the better, duh, but we have to accept that this is a portable device that connects to your TV first. This is the successor to the 3DS and they killed off their home console division. At least that is how I am taking this until we learn otherwise.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 11:39:08 AM by supermario2k »

Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #154 on: October 24, 2016, 11:37:47 AM »
How would Nintendo authenticate your purchase that you've saved onto a SD card without the internet?
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Offline supermario2k

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #155 on: October 24, 2016, 11:39:44 AM »
How would Nintendo authenticate your purchase that you've saved onto a SD card without the internet?

The same way Steam does? As in how do you download a digital copy without the internet?

Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #156 on: October 24, 2016, 11:48:15 AM »
I was talking to Shyguy about compression.

The carts will help but then there are download only players and companies fucking requiring the large day one patches. You have all seen games where the patch is bigger than the initial game install. Then there is games like Pay Day 2 where where it keeps growing in size because there is a very active player base that wants more content.

We are past the days where a game can be self contained in a cart.

There will be offline saves, don't worry about that at all. Cloud saves will be a bonus.
How would Nintendo authenticate your purchase that you've saved onto a SD card without the internet?
Like they do now with the 3DS SD slot. The WiiU was dumb as it didn't allow the same on the SD card yet allowed installs on an external HDD.
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #157 on: October 24, 2016, 12:33:05 PM »
Call of Duty Ghosts
Xbox one size: 42.21gb
Xbox 360 size: 9.6gb

Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #158 on: October 24, 2016, 01:06:12 PM »
Looking for more examples, Shyguy maybe onto something. PS4 vs PS3 file sizes are 10gb at least in most cases.

Still, I think it'd be a mistake if Nintendo didn't include at least 64 gb and an ability to expand your memory through SD Cards and XHDD's.

Storage aside, I really think the biggest issue is the balance between price, specs, and battery life. I think it has to be on par with the XBONE, with a price no higher than $300, and a battery life of at least 5 hours. I'm not sure if that's even possible, though.

The reason it needs to be on par with the XBONE are ports. You don't want developers having trouble porting to your machine. The price can't be higher than $300 or you are directly competing with the PS4 and XBONE, and you may not win. And finally, if the battery can't last longer than 5 hours it's truly not portable.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 01:09:33 PM by Stogi »
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #159 on: October 24, 2016, 02:09:18 PM »
This discussion reminded me of the rumors from Boogie2988.
http://gonintendo.com/stories/266258-rumor-boogie2988-gets-insider-info-on-nx-expands-upon-console
Quote
- in the example, you have a unit attached to your TV where you play the Assassin's Creed console game
- then you can detach the unit and play the Assassin's Creed mobile game on the go

This makes me think that docked Switch does indeed have more power and maybe even more storage space. A 1gb mobile game is installed on the tablet, and the full game is stored on the dock storage? Just a thought.

Offline supermario2k

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #160 on: October 24, 2016, 02:17:15 PM »
Okay Oohboy thanks for clarifying I wasn't sure. There are just too many conversations taking place all at once to keep track of them all.

Still, like I asked before, how does Nintendo do it on 3DS? Surely that system doesn't require mandatory installs and yes you can talk about what Sony and Microsoft are doing all day long but it is quite conceivable that Nintendo might not allow for those day one patches and mandatory installs on their machine.

Sure that might deter some 3rd parties but not if the system sells well enough to justify it. Again I am still thinking that developers will treat this as a handheld, meaning they will make the console version for the other two and optimize the games for this thing, just like they did with 3DS. This has enough of the console side to convince a few of them to port over their console games but I am still expecting them to treat this as a completely different machine than the other two.

Now before you reply that defeats the purpose, I disagree. The reason developers never supported the home console was it was always weird, nonstandard stuff that made their life more difficult and the console customers weren't going to buy three machines, the Sony/Xbox, the Nintendo console and the Nintendo handheld. But even during that entire time companies still made handheld versions of those games.

So once again, Nintendo's solution to being the and console is to eliminate the need for people to pick between the console (Wii U/Game Cube) and the Handheld (DS/GBA) instead they buy one machine. The reason developers are excited is it means instead of making THREE versions of the game, home console, Nintendo console, and handheld, they get  back to making TWO versions of the same game, home console and Switch. This is a very big deal this is WHY the Switch is a  big deal its more than just Nintendo can concentrate on making more games a year, it is also so 3rd party developers that still make a side game for the handheld continue to do so but the home console gamer gets to enjoy that game on their console.

Does that mean the games will be compromised sure it does, bring it on, I would rather they concentrate their efforts on making a very good handheld version that can be enjoyed on the TV rather than trying to make a low quality console version that is inbetween the handheld and console. I might not be explaining this right but I think the gist is there.


Midway, Capcom, Rock Star, even Rare made games for the Handhelds but not the consoles. If Nintendo markets this thing right, and words it right in the legal documents, there is EVERY BIT a chance they could simply pass this off as a true handheld and guess what, convince Microsoft to play ball and let Rare make games for it, now how damn cool would that be? That is what makes this huge. We need to, Nintendo needs to, the entire industry needs to think of this as Nintendo replacing the 3DS and just dropping out of the true console space. With that view in mind, taking this as the successor to the 3DS you can apply handheld logic to the development and under that plan you get not only MORE games, you get games from companies that might be reluctant to support an off brand home box but recognize in the handheld space Nintendo IS IT.



Basically what all that amounts to is they could convince third party companies to make the games work on this and 3rd parties don't see it as a Wii U they see it as a 3DS. In that scenario they will work within the limitations because this thing will easily outsell the other two but it will be the handheld market first and the console market along for the ride. Those who like the handhelds but want to play those games on the TV.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 02:19:00 PM by supermario2k »

Offline KeyBilly

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #161 on: October 24, 2016, 02:28:26 PM »
And finally, if the battery can't last longer than 5 hours it's truly not portable.

I don't mean to be a contrarian, but the real world 3DS battery life for me can be as low as 3 hours of constant play, and the original 3DS was even worse.  It's not ideal, but Nintendo has abandoned long battery life as a priority a long time ago.  I think that they expect people to use portables on daily commutes and that sort of thing, charging them when not in use.  They require accessories to stay alive for long trips.  With the 3DS, I tend to just use it for a while on long plane trips and use my phone the rest of the time.

Offline supermario2k

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #162 on: October 24, 2016, 02:40:47 PM »
I am not so sure about that, it needs either 3-5 hours minimum or there should be a wireless charging solution. Most people play their 3DS as a home console anyways, kids play at school on the bus or playground right but that's for very short periods of time and for long commutes you have this plus your mobile device so while your Switch is charging on a road trip, play some Pokemon Go or Super Mario Run. I think that is what Nintendo is expecting people to do.

Another thing, back when you had to pay for batteries yes battery life was an issue, but in todays mobile connected world, chargers and charging stations are a dime a dozen. If they can work wireless charging into the system that works out even better. Also remember the New 3DS didn't even come with an A/C adapter so they might very well be working on winging their gamers from that practice like Key Billy pointed out.

Either way, we won't know more until what January or later anyways.
As for the JoyCon I am curious what their battery life is going to be, will there be situations where you need to charge the tablet separate from the controllers, now that might be an issue.

Offline Stogi

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #163 on: October 24, 2016, 05:15:40 PM »
And finally, if the battery can't last longer than 5 hours it's truly not portable.

I don't mean to be a contrarian, but the real world 3DS battery life for me can be as low as 3 hours of constant play, and the original 3DS was even worse.  It's not ideal, but Nintendo has abandoned long battery life as a priority a long time ago.  I think that they expect people to use portables on daily commutes and that sort of thing, charging them when not in use.  They require accessories to stay alive for long trips.  With the 3DS, I tend to just use it for a while on long plane trips and use my phone the rest of the time.

Hmm I forgot about the piss-poor 3DS battery.
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #164 on: October 24, 2016, 07:18:25 PM »
This discussion reminded me of the rumors from Boogie2988.
http://gonintendo.com/stories/266258-rumor-boogie2988-gets-insider-info-on-nx-expands-upon-console
Quote
- in the example, you have a unit attached to your TV where you play the Assassin's Creed console game
- then you can detach the unit and play the Assassin's Creed mobile game on the go

This makes me think that docked Switch does indeed have more power and maybe even more storage space. A 1gb mobile game is installed on the tablet, and the full game is stored on the dock storage? Just a thought.




This also jives with the 2 versions of Dragon Quest 11 that SquareEnix announced.

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #165 on: October 24, 2016, 08:39:47 PM »
Call of Duty Ghosts
Xbox one size: 42.21gb
Xbox 360 size: 9.6gb

More recent example: PSN says the PS3 version of NBA 2k17 is 7.9GB, and the PS4 version is 44.4GB. The difference between say, 720p and 1080p images can't be that big, can it? Or are we talking about using FLAC for all the audio?
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Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #166 on: October 24, 2016, 09:00:56 PM »
This also jives with the 2 versions of Dragon Quest 11 that SquareEnix announced.

This makes too much sense. It's all coming together!

Offline ShyGuy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #167 on: October 24, 2016, 09:05:20 PM »
Call of Duty Ghosts
Xbox one size: 42.21gb
Xbox 360 size: 9.6gb

More recent example: PSN says the PS3 version of NBA 2k17 is 7.9GB, and the PS4 version is 44.4GB. The difference between say, 720p and 1080p images can't be that big, can it? Or are we talking about using FLAC for all the audio?

I've heard that the textures, audio and video are uncompressed or less compressed, because if you've got the space, screw it! Never mind the download time or taking up 15% of the PS4 hard drive for one game...

Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2016, 10:05:51 PM »
This is exactly why Nintendo should go with a 64GB Cartridge with a 48/16 read write partition. Proprietary or not they will have to buy 100,000,000 or so and the 48 GB is DL Blu-Ray size. They should be able to get the price down to less than $2 a card. They can completely change the game...and there is the slogan.




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Offline oohhboy

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2016, 11:36:30 PM »
In regards to battery life, the Switch is bigger than the 3DS. The both the battery and screen size(One of the most power hungry) increase while the SOC tends stay about the same amount of wattage due to heat limitations. The battery capacity grows in cubic^3 as size goes up while the screen power drain only goes up in square^2, given the same technology as the 3DS just up scaled.

Unless they skimp on the battery, for the increase in size it should theoretically have better battery life than the 3DS assuming the parts grows in proportion.

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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #170 on: October 25, 2016, 01:14:10 AM »
Quote
How will this console be so powerful and play the latest games and be the same price as an iPad that can play candy crush and angry birds? It just doesn't add up to me.



Please don't take this the wrong way but you can't look at what Apple does as an indicator of anything price related. They are like Cadillac, basically a Buick with fancier dressing you pay a premium price just for the Apple name alone. It has always been that way. Nintendo, as much as I love them, are far from a "premium" brand at this point.

Also just because Candy Crush is the most common game on the iOS doesn't mean it can't handle better games, maybe look at the actual App store before you pass judgment. I mean just saying.

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Quote
As far as storage goes, I am not sure if it matters as much. 32GB is not enough, there is no denying that, BUT if this machine uses carts then the need for installs goes away, the whole reason for installs is to get the game into the RAM faster because the disc's take forever to load, that is the solution to the optical media problem. This does not have that problem so there is no need to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

That means nothing for patches though. I have a 1.5 TB drive plugged into my Wii U and that is a damn waste of space. I could have gotten by with a measily 250 GB and still had room to grow. My PS4 has 500 GB internal and I haven't even hit 25 percent yet.

If a person uses this as their only console and it is their only gaming option that would be an issue. But considering every system they have released since Wii supports SD cards there is no reason to assume this won't.

Quote
USB is not a solution hell it isn't even an option if this thing is supposed to be a portable. Not unless there is a way via I don't know the cloud or something to access the dock from when you are on the go but that sounds like a terrible solution.


128GB USB nub. You'd hardly notice it, depending on where the USB drive on the portable would be.
assuming there would be one. I'd just prefer dual microSD slots.


Quote
Cloud storage is NOT GOOD either. Cloud is bad. Why? Because a portable device is going to be used at times and places where there is no internet access period. Gaming on the go doesn't work if you can not save your game locally and need internet, that would suck you play Zelda for 8 hours, make real progress but the internet is down and you can't save and then the battery dies and you lost everything. That won't work.

I'm sure the clould would be more for backup, and I'm sure there will likely be room on each cart for quick saves and things that are specific to that game you're using.[/quote]
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 01:15:42 AM by BlackNMild2k1 »

Offline ThePerm

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #171 on: October 25, 2016, 01:53:53 AM »
An easy solution would be a hard drive for home and usb sticks for travel. How many games will you be playing at once on the go?

Lets put this into perspective. When the Wii U launched you had the option of basic or Deluxe. Deluxe cost $349.99 and basic cost $299

If we all recall all the Deluxe editions sold out while the Basics sat on the shelf and collected dust. Eventually they discontinued the basic.

So, what lesson did Nintendo learn from this? $350 is a price more people are willing to buy. They might as well make the basic level this and make Deluxe $400 super Deluxe even higher.

When you compare Shield to the competition and the Switch what do you find? How powerful is the Switch going to be if the Shield is $200 and Nintendo feels they can get away with $350?

When the wii u came out we did a calculation. When Gamecube came out Peter Main said he believed the mass market price was $199. This was in 2002. When we adjusted for the value of the dollar over time it happened to be about $350. 

Now it could be Nintendo wants to pull a Wii and have an underpowered yet disruptive device and sell it at a low price, but the Wii retailed for $250.

Nintendo might feel its brand is weakened and perceived as underpowered and might go for higher, or they might go for value. It's hard to say.

The middle is $300, but is that the sweet spot? or is there no sweet spot because they might have several models because they built really scalable hardware. There might be something for everybody.

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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #172 on: October 25, 2016, 01:59:14 AM »
More people may have been willing to pay $350 for the Deluxe model than $300 for the basic, but the extremely low sales of the Wii U in general should have scared Nintendo away from that higher price point.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #173 on: October 25, 2016, 02:38:43 AM »
I think for any portable computing device $300 is a fair price.

Look what a $300.00 tablet gets you these days.  They are not beastly machines but they are highly capable.  Some media sources are predicting a $250.00 price as always but I think Nintendo may price it higher for a perceived image.  They don't want fans to think it is another cheap system again.  Nintendo isn't going for the 4K market any time soon...nor should it.  If they get slightly above PS4 specs but not they don't have to go to PS4 Pro levels.  I think they will be fine.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo Switch Pre-Release Discussion (March 2017)
« Reply #174 on: October 25, 2016, 03:16:56 AM »
I'm prepared for $349.99

But that's the Switch tablet and attached joycons, the joycon grip, the dock, hdmi cable, 1 power cable for the dock and one travel charger for the tablet.

I'm hoping this tablet has 128GB onboard with dual microSD slots for easy expansion.
I'm not even going to guess the specs right now, but a nice selection of pre-loaded starter software:
MiiMaker, Netflix, some Nintendoland like game, VirtualConsole, Internet browser, SwitchShop, MyNintendo, Switchboard MessengerTM (social media app), Media Manager, etc etc

It also better launch with a sleek and sexy looking UI that's actually very easy to use.
This must never look like a childrens toy in initial advertising directed at the mainstream media and hardcore gamers. This means no specialized joycons till the Xmas game bundles.

-It's gotta have a multi-touch screen, inward and outward camera on the tablet.
-Rumble, gyro, and possibly even pointer capabilities in the wireless, rechargeable joycons.
-The dock triggers active cooling, allowing full clock speed from the tablet, which means performance bump for 1080p (and 4k) UHDTV's. attached USB storage allows for a bottomless fridge full of endless media ready to be loaded on or off of  your main tablet consumption on the go.
-The joycon grip also allows for recharging the joycons at the same time, even while playing (some of these may seem obvious, but I'm stating it all the same).

and given that there are a bunch of good, interesting games that look GREAT graphically, as in on par with other systems, then I am fully prepared to drop $350 on this.

all the rest of you better go get a 2nd job, because Nintendo is Switch'NTM things up and moving out of the Gaming Ghetto.