Topic: The Perrin Kaplan Interview

[Bill Aurion]

"I think Super Smash Brothers in 3D could be done easier and very fun, but it would also so dramatically change SSB that it wouldn't feel like SSB."

This is where I'm wondering where all the people who complain about new games using the same franchises are...If Ninty could do said game then they can make a completely different game...Just not Smash Brothers...

[Ian Sane]

Well everyone ELSE is off topic so I guess I'll get a few points in.

If you want to play Powerstone play Powerstone and if you want to play SSB play SSB.  Why should they completely overhaul SSB when the one person who wants it changed basically would be content with Powerstone?  Here's an idea: Nintendo doesn't wang SSB and thus piss nearly everyone off and then makes there own unique full 3D fighter as an original franchise.  That way we get TWO games, both completely different.  However I do think that SSBM nailed the formula so dead on that there's not really anywhere to go with it without a complete overhaul (which I don't want; I'm tired of Nintendo making completely new games and then throwing a popular name on the box), except for online play.

We've had this online arguement a million times.  ONLINE PLAY DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T STILL PLAY WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE AT HOME!  God I'm so sick of this BS where people act like if a game is online you can't play it with friends anymore.  You non-online guys could still play SSB at home with three other people.  The rest of us would just use the option to play the game multiplayer even when friends aren't over.  Plus there's no rule that you have to play online with strangers.  Guess what.  I don't live with my friends.  So being able to play with them without inviting everyone over is a great option.  Plus you can have four people playing in one room with four people playing in another room.  Stop being brainwashed by Nintendo's propaganda and open your mind.  

[PaLaDiN]

My issue with online isn't anything about friends.

It's about lag... SSBM has ZERO tolerance for lag, and if they have to slow the game down to include online, forget it.

It's also about price... unless online is free forever, I'm not buying this crap. I don't understand why console games can't be like on the PC... it's just ridiculous.

[Bill Aurion]

ONLINE PLAY DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T STILL PLAY WITH SEVERAL PEOPLE AT HOME!

And I don't think anyone is arguing with this... =P

[Ian Sane]

"It's about lag... SSBM has ZERO tolerance for lag, and if they have to slow the game down to include online, forget it.

It's also about price... unless online is free forever, I'm not buying this crap. I don't understand why console games can't be like on the PC... it's just ridiculous."

I'd say those are valid issues.  So realistically they should wait until an online SSB is feasible.  That's fine with me.  Waiting will build more hype anyway.  It would suck for the "Omigosh it's been six months I need a new sequel now" crowd but Nintendo shouldn't suck up to those types anyway.

[SgtShiversBen]

I forgot, but I remember someone said that "who would make an online only game?!"  Well, SquareEnix did, and apparently that shot off like a rocket.

But I digress, I like the way that SSB is.  SUre it's cheap and fun, but so is Mario and we all know how popular that is.  The reason why I think many people are getting pissed off if they made it an online game is because that's what developers focus on.  When they start to get crazy like pinapple ideas about online, they completely slaughter the single player game, and completely forget about multiplayer (not online).  It's happened countless times with the Playstation games.  Socom completely ignores using two or more players, but online is there.  Halo did it, thank God, but it wasn't great.  Timesplitters 2 is a perfect example if that was online.  The multiplayer is just terrific, the single player rocks (with bots) and it would be GREAT if it was online.  

But what do I know, I'm an architecture student.

[Spak-Spang]

BILL:  If you designed a game that had the same basic principle, but felt different, why not use the same name and same character to capatilize on the franchise name and history.

Here is my how to translate Smash Brothers to 3D guide.

1)Create small completely interactive enviroments to fight in that are basically floating Nintendo themed islands.  

2)Keep the unique damage system.   As you get hurt more the easier it is to smash you and hit you about.  In fact also include the same Smash move type controls.  EXCEPT, make them charge moves with the attack buttons.  

3)Control:  5 buttons  1)Jump, and be used for double jump, 2)Punch, 3)Kick, 4)Block 5)Special

4)Special  Move Trigger.  Ok this is new to the series.  To keep special moves simple and able to work in 3D, hold the Special move trigger and push any of the other buttons or two buttons to do special moves.

5)Game still revolves around king of the hill type gameplay.

6)Keep the game less about stringing combos together and more about positioning, smart platforming, and successful use of items and the enviroment for defense and offense.

7)Keep the insane amount of Nintendo items for power and more.

See, Smash Brothers 3D could be made.  And it could work on the revolution.

[Savior]

1.Lag in fighting games is a thing of the past. Sure the occasional hicup happens, but play MK Deception Online, Dead or Alive Ultimate, or any of the Capcom 2D Fighting Games, or even Guilty Gear on the XBox...  its not a problem, and wouldnt be a problem if the next Smash was online

2.Powerstone was great,anyone who doubts it has never played it. Powerstone 2, became THE game to play in between the N64 Smash, and Melle.  It had stuff Smash would dream about, the interactive enviroments, Tanks you could jump into, Boats, and plans and turrets.

3.Smash wouldnt work in 3D. Nothing wrong with either game, both are fun. A shame that Capcom basically used the Powerstone Gameplay for that Onimusha 4 player game instead of making Powerstone 3.

Smash is the quintesental party game, but it works best as a 2D game.  

[Pale]

"Keep the game less about stringing combos together"

Boo to that.....  You would piss the world off...

[Spak-Spang]

PaleZero:  Even Super Smash Brother Melee isn't that much about combos, as it is about complete crowd control.  You have so many people attacking you, you need to be more worried about living then successfully completing a cool 10 hit combo in Smash Brothers.

I am just calling it how I see it.  If you are running around in 3D trying to knock people off a 3D island you aren't going to have the luxury to really pull of crazy combos.  I thought this design would feel the most like Super Smash Brothers in 3D.

I would like to note.  I personally do not want this to be the next step for Super Smash Brothers.

The next step to me is using the DS, and setting up larger arenas to fight up to 8-16 people in.  

2D levels with much much more interaction and platform elements.  

Last and I think the best achievement is an adventure Co-op mode to play with 4 people that makes you solve puzzles and fight throughout the worlds.  Something that like Four Swords Smash Brothers.

[Bill Aurion]

BILL: If you designed a game that had the same basic principle, but felt different, why not use the same name and same character to capatilize on the franchise name and history.

My comment was sarcasm based on a previous topic around Ninty's "overuse of mascots"

If you are running around in 3D trying to knock people off a 3D island you aren't going to have the luxury to really pull of crazy combos.

I don't see how this would work well...Depth perception would be annoying if you were knocked off the back...

[Finnegan]

".......and we’ve got a lot of bundles and promotions for the holiday that we’re going to be coming out with"

the only one I have heard about it the mario kart gamecube bundle.   Has anyone heard anything about these other bundles and promotions?  I want to get some new games but I won't until I find out what these deals are


and yeah smash bro is probably my favorite game of all time.  I think that it is such a unique game that the revolutionary step was just creating the first one.  From now on, I hope that the sequels are just evolutionary steps from the first one (like how melee was).  If nintendo wants to make a 3d kind of fighting game fine but they better not call is smash bro.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

She could be talking about game-hardware bundles, like the dance game + pad and Mario Party 6 + microphone.  Of course, there's also the Mario Kart GC bundle and the Metroid bundle.  Or is the Metroid bundle not around any more?  My local Best Buy is one of the worst for GameCube supplies, so I can't even tell.

[nemo_83]

Lag, lag, lag, what a myth.  I've played Xbox Live and I didn't witness any lag, and we were playing 2 player online against a gank of folks on Unreal.  If Smash Bros. remained 2d, I have no dought it could go online easily.  

I argued for 3D because with it you can fit more people into the stage streamlining the camera work.  So the stage doesn't have to be a mile from one end to the other.  Some were confused about what I meant about the 2D/3D camera work.  There are basically two versions of 2D views (doesn't mean anything about whether anything in view is 2d or 3d); one 2D view gives you accuracy in jumping and landing cause the view is profile, from the side.  The side 2d view allows one to move left, right, and up.  The other 2D view is from above.  It doesn't matter if the background and characters are 3d or 2d, the view from above puts a roof on the 3d space.  The view from above allows you to see all your movement forward, back, left, and right.  It can also allow you to see the jumping, just don't expect it to be as accurate, not cause it can't be done, it is just up to the developer.  If you strongly believe that the 3rd dimension will take away more than it would add to this particular game then you are welcome to your opinion.  For example, I believe platforming is too important for Mario Bros to be 3D.  I just feel with the multiplayer fighting that 3D will open more doors than it closes.  Plus the camera would not be set in stone since the background and characters are 3D.  One could have 2D view with 3D backgrounds like Soul Calibur.  I wouldn't suggest a camera behind the character like Mario 64, that is a 3D camera (it would work well online or in single player though).

I feel some of the people here are complaining about 3D today in this game, but if Nintendo made the announcement it was actually going to be in 3D tomorrow or later, then they would immediately soil their pants with excitement.  I don't need Nintendo to dictate how I feel.  

[KnowsNothing]

The next Smash Brothers should have the same view.  Also, it should be cel-shaded.

And that's the way it goes.

Oh, and Mario needs his hammer.  Oh, and if Mario and Luigi are on the same team, it'd be neat if they could do some combonation moves from Superstar Saga.  Multiplayer moves would be cool, albeit hard to effectivley pull off.  Or something.

[Spak-Spang]

Bill Aurion:  Your completely right.  The Depth Perception would be very very hard to deal with.

So you have two solutions:

1)Do the best you can and design the game with other means to keep you in the play field and not dying quickly.

2)Really downplay the idea of jumping back onto the playfield.  Make the balance where you are scared to go anywhere near the edge, and then also include pitfalls and traps around the center of the field.  If you are thrown off, you are thrown off.  It would make the game faster paced with many more kills going on.  The game would be alittle less about skill, and alittle more about chance, but still fun.


I am just saying the game could be done.  Not saying that it could be done completely as well as it could be done in 2D.  Somethings just work 100X better in 2D.  Like the new DS Kirby game, could not be attempted in 3D at all.

That is also why when I talk about SSBM sequel I talk about enhancing the features they added in Melee, and rounding out the game to make it even better.  Balance, Balance, Balance.  I don't care too much about new characters, though a few would be nice.  I want more depth in adventure mode, a CO-Op Adventure mode.  Bots to create your own custom challenges.  How about a Custom Challenge mode where you can setup the situations for victory.  Set Bot skill levels, how you must win, and then save it to the Gamecard, or trade it with a friend.  Stuff like that is what is needed for the next game.

[Deguello]

"If Smash Bros. remained 2d, I have no dought it could go online easily. "

Has Super Smash Brothers EVER been 2D?  Did I miss the memo or something?

"Lag, lag, lag, what a myth."

Bullcrap.  I played on on of my dorm buddies Xbox's online and it lagged quite frequently, even against a guy from the next state.  Oh, and he also said he wanted to do bad things to my mother.

[Pale]

Spak, you need to play more 1 on 1....  Thats my favorite way to play smash bros...  Then I'll combo the heck outta ya with Sheik..  ;-)

As far as this whole debate goes....Smash Bros is a 2d game...that is the way the gameplay is set up.  If you/nintendo wants a 3d fighter...they need to make a different game all together.  =P

[PaLaDiN]

"I feel some of the people here are complaining about 3D today in this game, but if Nintendo made the announcement it was actually going to be in 3D tomorrow or later, then they would immediately soil their pants with excitement."

Yes, because the people here agree with everything Nintendo says and there's no skepticism whatsoever.

Get over yourself, dude. Making Smash Bros. 3D is a stupid idea that takes away the whole fighting mechanism Smash Brothers consists of. If you want a 3D fighting game, play something else.

[KDR_11k]

Nemo: I'd like to have your connection because mine never goes below 100ms latency. If you can't even hit a car with the Flak Cannon at that latency, how are you supposed to do just-defenses and other split-second maneuvers?

[Spak-Spang]

I will admit I am not really that good at Smash Brothers, and therefore I don't play one on one very much.  

Yeah, one on one I can see comboing, but the game isn't just about one on one.  You can play with up to 4 people.  Which is what makes Smash Brothers, unique.  Its one of the very few 4 player fighting games that actually works.

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Deguello
"If Smash Bros. remained 2d, I have no dought it could go online easily. "

Has Super Smash Brothers EVER been 2D?  Did I miss the memo or something?

"Lag, lag, lag, what a myth."

Bullcrap.  I played on on of my dorm buddies Xbox's online and it lagged quite frequently, even against a guy from the next state.  Oh, and he also said he wanted to do bad things to my mother.

Didn't I already say that it doesn't matter that Smash Bros. as it stands has polygons, it is still a 2D game.

Xbox Live gives you the control to pick a bad connection or a smooth connection.  Depends on who is hosting the match.  If you join in on a game and it lags, don't complain, you could see the speed of the host's connection before you even entered the match.  I haven't played any multiplayer on Live that has laged, especially to the point that it interupted gameplay.  Usually if there isn't enough speed, then the host cannot open the game to more than four or eight people.  

What I hate about Live is that the geeks have no social skills.  The Xbots hardly speak, and if they do, they aren't always the coolest people.  I hate the fact they have this awesome mic, and it hardly gets used.  I was hoping for smack talk, glouting, humor.  Also Live hasn't got enough people on it.  You end up spending too much time waiting for enough people to join in on a match that noone really agrees with the rules on.  

[Deguello]

"Xbox Live gives you the control to pick a bad connection or a smooth connection."

We (my dorm bud and me) only found bad connections.  That's not to say there are no good ones, but, thus is the way of anecdotal evidence.  And the microphone is such a waste, all we heard were quite derogatory insults to one of the players who had a Screenname that might be considered ethnically identifying.  If you catch my drift.  So it was laggy as hell, and everybody we met was either a prick or a racist.  $50 well spent.  But this is, of course, anecdotal evidence, much like your experiences of having no lag.

And 3D is a graphical term, period.   And that means to me Super Smash Brothers Melee is a 3D game, end of discussion.

[Spak-Spang]

Ok.  Terms are gettting confused.

When people discuss 3D and 2D within gameplay they are talking about the traditional difference of a type of Sidescrolling game, and a game that uses the 3rd dimension in its design.

In that regard SSBM is a 2D.  Even games like Viewtiful Joe and that N64 Kirby would fall into the 2D category with that defination.

Now, if we are talking about graphics.  Then 2D only refering to traditional sprite based animation.  This usually uses traditional animation techniques.  Sometimes will use claymation or something different.  Then 3D refers to anything that uses polygons or such to create a computer generated 3D model of the characters and world within the game.

In that since SSBM is a 3D game, along with Viewtiful Joe and Kirby.

Personally I really can't believe we got in such a heated arguement on that.  Either people needed to define their words once they saw miscommunication was going on.  Or let it go realizing what each the other meant.

In short, many do not want Smash Brothers to ever be designed with that 3rd plane to complicate game design, depth perception, and overall the simplistic yet, enjoyable game mechanics of the original.

[KDR_11k]

"Dimensional" is a mathematical term. A game can have any number of dimensions in its math (e.g. quaternion math, as used for skeletal animation, uses four dimensions). Depending on which part of the code you speak about, Smash Bros. could have anything from one to four dimensions (maybe even more). That doesn't get us any further which is why games are often referenced by the average number of dimensions between graphics and gameplay coordinate systems (2D, 2.5D, 3D). I'd say that since we're talking about games we should only take the gameplay number, which would define SSBM as 2D: Every possible location of any gameplay element can be described as a combination of two non-colinear vectors.

Come to think of it, we should also ignore that with modern engines vertex coordinates are five-dimensional (XYZ screen coordinate plus UV texture coordinate) and textures are also five to six dimensional (width, height, red, green, blue, alpha)