Topic: Killing Dragons and Stuff (Skyrim)

[Shorty McNostril]

So yeah,  rented it out yesterday. People have been hyped for this game so I thought I would try it out to see what all the fuss was about.  I have to say that so far it isn't doing it for me. 



Now I have never played an Elder Scrolls game before so I wasn't fully sure what to expect.  Admittedly, I have only played it for a couple of hours so far.  I have it for the rest of the day so I'll try some more a bit later and see how it goes.


The game looks and sounds absolutely stunning though (X360). 


What are your thoughts on it?

[Ceric]

Anything with Elder Scroll in its name I advoid now.  Been burned to many times.

[broodwars]

My best friend is picking the game up today, as he was a big fan of Oblivion (when Quests weren't breaking on him).  He'll be bringing the game over tomorrow so I can get some hands-on time with it before I decide if I'll be picking it up as well.  I'll make up my mind then, as I have $45 in gift cards coming in the mail I'd like to use on a game before the holidays.

At the moment, though, I'm on the fence when it comes to this game.  I didn't play Oblivion, and I hated Morrowind.  I found that game incredibly dull, as it felt like I was constantly wandering over the same square mile of terrain investigating copy & pasted dungeons killing the same enemies.  The world felt fairly generic High Fantasy and the story was fairly uninteresting.  I never did finish it.

I did like Fallout 3, though...when it wasn't crashing on me (which was often on PS3).  I did find that when I knocked out the main story quests and had all the best gear my character could use, I really stopped caring about the world at that point and just got bored wandering through the same 3-4 environment templates; grabbing the same loot; and killing the same enemies in not particularly hard ways.  I'm really concerned about running into that in Skyrim as well, as well as hitting major technical issues like I did in Fallout 3 (despite this being a new engine, reviews are already citing crashing issues and breaking quests).

From the looks of things, though, Skyrim seems to be much more user-friendly than Morrowind was, so I think I could probably get into it.

[Ceric]

IF someone convinces me to get this.  I'm not making the same mistake and I'm getting the PC version because it can be modded.  Curse is trying to get modders right now.

[NWR_insanolord]

I will buy the PC version if CrossOver supports it, because while I'm interested, I'm not interested enough to boot into Windows to play it.

[Morari]

Morrowind is easily one of the best games ever made. Period. It was mind-blowing for its time, and has held up surprisingly well. I went back and played through it again just last year. It's all the better now that there are entire environment rebuilds and graphical updates available through modding!

I haven't played too much of Skyrim yet. Hopefully next week will afford more freedom in my schedule. Sadly, it suffers from a lot of obvious console-itis right off the bat. Shitty list menus for everything, odd duel-wielding designed for gamepad triggers, and worst of all... mouse acceleration! It looks like most of the mouse problems can be solved in the INI, though.

Still, the game looks gorgeous outside of some odd human faces and muddy clothing textures. More so than anything though, the game is visually interesting. Oblivion suffered from a lot of dumbed-down console choices as well, but was even farther disgraced by an absolutely boring story and setting. Skyrim looks to sidestep that thus far. Of course, I'm biased as I've always played as the Nords.

It's far, far too early to comment on just how well it stacks up against Morrowind. I already get the sense that it'll easily surpass Oblivion, though. Of course, the game will be even better to go back through and play again next year once the community has thoroughly modded it.

[Ceric]

I think that is my problem.  I've never played an Elder Scroll on PC and I always hear the Mods are what really make it.

[Chozo Ghost]

It's probably best to wait a year before buying this. Not just because of the inevitable price drops, but also because since this is a Bethesda game there are bound to be a **** load of bugs so you will probably want to wait until they've patched as many of those as they are going to.

[oohhboy]

I can't stand any of the Elder Scroll games. The gameplay doesn't have any cohesiveness to it and what worse the combat is terrible. The very same sins carried over to Fallout 3, the only game that is "Quasi Elder scrolls" I could tolerate enough to finish. The gunplay is absolutely rubbish, you unload on someone but they act like paper cutouts, completely unfazed. You couldn't play the game without VATS since that was the only reliable way to kill or wound an enemy without receiving massive amounts of return fire and they made the AI that way because of VATS. Quite frankly, the Oblivion engine is the worse framework they could have chosen for a fallout game.

Sure there were some pretty cool moments, but it doesn't take away the fact most of the game just isn't fun, the worse sins you can commit in a game. The mods helped, but the gameplay foundations were built on sand. You have done something very, very wrong when I finish the main story line and I think "Thank god that's over now I never have to play this again" followed by the next thought "I would go play Pen and Paper RPGs over this if it wasn't all vampires, high fantasy and LARP".

So I will be giving this game a very width berth and go play Mount and Blade for that medieval combat fix.

[Morari]

Fallout 3, and especially New Vegas could be easily turned into full-on shooters with just a handful of mods. Of course, given the series' roots, that wasn't really the goal nor the point for Bethesda. As far as the Elder Scrolls go, Skyrim's combat is much more satisfying than its predecessors. Morrowind was all dice rolls when it came to even making contact, whereas Oblivion only checked your stats to see how much damage to apply to successful hits. Skyrim isn't quite on par with Zeno Clash's combat, but it's definitely satisfying.

As for bugs... I keep hearing that argument leveled against the Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, but I just don't see it. Unless I have a couple dozen mods installed, the games behave themselves more or less as well as any other game. Even still, some forgiveness is in order. These are huge worlds, with open structures. It's harder to fine-tune and play test than your generic, linear action titles.

[oohhboy]

While a full on shooter with RPG stats ala Stalker would not have been completely in the spirit of the numbered Fallout series, it would have been far more playable and fun. If they wanted an rpg experience, they should have used a full on turn based or a WEGO system for combat. Instead they halfassed it with VATS becoming equivalent of spell points paired with broken real-time combat with an AI that wasn't constrained as your character was. Instead of hiding to reload a gun or even to regenerate health, you hid so you could get more AP. For a lot of people mods weren't available and if you have to resort to mods to have a playable game out of the box, the game isn't any good.

There were bugs, crashes, plenty of general unpleasantness, but I didn't bother mentioning them since fixing those doesn't fundamentally fix the game. It doesn't matter that it was a huge open world. They didn't test the gameplay fundamentals. They didn't ask themselves, what happens if someone doesn't play the game exactly the way we envisioned after we gave them the tools to do so otherwise. They didn't make a small map with all these gameplay elements and see how they interacted with each other. I doubt they even tried to pen and paper it on a back of a napkin. The thought process was "How can we shoehorn Oblivion stats into a Fallout skin", not "How can we modernize Fallout to use 10  years of technological and gameplay advancements". Stalker proved an open world FPS could work even with buildings you could enter in real-time. KOTOR had a modernized realtime RPG system. Deus Ex showed you can mesh RPG and FPS together.

Bethesda has no excuse for the mess that is Fallout 3. Not to mention that asinine ending. I am evil because I sent a mutant invincible to radiation to push a button inside a high radiation environment instead of needlessly committing suicide so I can be a wasteland Jesus. Bethesda couldn't even catch such a glaring issue in the climax of the game, how much thought do you think they put into everything else. No excuses.

[Chozo Ghost]

VATS was the biggest problem I had when playing Fallout 3 on my PS3. I enabled the Mysterious Stranger perk, and I didn't come to find out until later that that was a big no no. There were times where you are engaging enemies over long distances or weird angles and he would appear but never be able to kill the enemies, so the game would be stuck in a really slow limbo for a very long time until either you died or the game crashed.

There were also times when the game just froze up for no reason at all and the system had to be reset. That really sucked if you played a few hours and didn't save your game.

Bethesda has no excuse for the mess that is Fallout 3. Not to mention that asinine ending. I am evil because I sent a mutant invincible to radiation to push a button inside a high radiation environment instead of needlessly committing suicide so I can be a wasteland Jesus. Bethesda couldn't even catch such a glaring issue in the climax of the game, how much thought do you think they put into everything else. No excuses.

Haha! Yeah, I remember that. Not only are ghouls and such immune to radiation, but they are actually healed by it, so not only would sending Charon or what's his name... Uncle Leo? in there not be a bad thing, it would actually be beneficial to them. There is also the robot thing that you could partner with, and he should have been immune to the radiation also. It should have only made you evil if you sent one of the human characters in there.

[Morari]

For a lot of people mods weren't available and if you have to resort to mods to have a playable game out of the box, the game isn't any good.

The game doesn't need "fixed", though. It plays perfectly fine as is. It can certainly stand to be improved upon however, and that's where mods come in. Just like in any game. For those people without modding capability, they have only themselves to blame. Just say no to consoles.

The thought process was "How can we shoehorn Oblivion stats into a Fallout skin", not "How can we modernize Fallout to use 10  years of technological and gameplay advancements". Stalker proved an open world FPS could work even with buildings you could enter in real-time. KOTOR had a modernized realtime RPG system. Deus Ex showed you can mesh RPG and FPS together.

I agree with this, if nothing else. Fallout 3 (and New Vegas) would have been better off had they not been crammed into Oblivion's shell. Except that KOTOR is boring.

[broodwars]

So my friend was over today, and I played through the opening sequence of Skyrim before he had to go.  Eh, it's ok.  It plays well enough that I'll probably pick it up sometime this coming week, though the game seems to chug a bit on PS3 with some minor framerate issues.  Seeing the game in person, it looks much better than the Fallout 3 mod it looks like in internet videos.  I like the dual-wield system, though I wish the game would actually tell you if a weapon is single or two-handed.

I see, though, that Bethesda still seems incapable of putting together a character creator that didn't make everything look hideous.

I liked what I saw, though I'll probably start over when I actually get the game so I can pick a different origin.  I usually pick an Elf-type character when I play these sort of games, but I just could not make a decent-looking character in the little time I had to work with, so I picked an Imperial.  Besides, I'd like to take my time next time around and savor the experience.

[Chozo Ghost]

I want to make a Hulk Hogan character and go berserk on everything and anything I see.


(but that will have to wait until I get the game first)

[broodwars]

I want to make a Hulk Hogan character and go berserk on everything and anything I see.

You won't have to try that hard.  The default Imperial and Norn models are pretty close to that already.

[Morari]

What'cha gonna do brother, when Hulkamania runs wild on you?!

[broodwars]

What'cha gonna do brother, when Hulkamania runs wild on you?!

You call the Ultimate Warrior...and then run for cover from the incoming wave of total nonsense.   

[ShyGuy]

I played this game. It seems like all the NPC characters are racist!

[Oblivion]

My friend came over to my house and bought the game. I played it for about two hours. I ended up grinding for a while and going to a nearby city and murdering the whole damn town. It was pretty fun. Other than that I thought it was kinda...blah? If that makes sense.

[Chozo Ghost]

My friend came over to my house and bought the game. I played it for about two hours. I ended up grinding for a while and going to a nearby city and murdering the whole damn town. It was pretty fun. Other than that I thought it was kinda...blah? If that makes sense.

Well... when you murder everyone it makes the world a pretty empty and boring place because there is no one left to interact with.

[Oblivion]

No, I starting killing everyone BECAUSE it was empty and boring.

[Morari]

Your heart and soul is empty and boring. I feel sorry for you.

[Stogi]

First time I played Elder Scrolls was a long ass time ago on the PC. Don't know which game or version.

Anyway, I tried to steal something from someone's house while he was in it. Needless to say, he didn't like that. He tried to kill me, but I ended up killing him first. Next thing you know, someone else bursts in and sees this guy dead on the floor, so I had to kill him too. It was basically like the episode of Futurama where Leela becomes a bit more spontaneous.

Long story short, the whole village was dead. That's when I became bored and never touched an Elder Scrolls game again.

[Oblivion]

That's kind of what happened with me. I just got bored.

[broodwars]

Well, my gift cards arrived today so I picked up Skyrim on PS3.  I hope I don't come to regret that.  The Nordic setting and not having to deal with stat point assignment might just be the thing to get me into an Elder Scrolls game this time, as at least it doesn't look like yet another Tolkien-esque High Fantasy like all the other Elder Scrolls games do.

[Caliban]

I tried to steal something from someone's house while he was in it. Needless to say, he didn't like that. He tried to kill me, but I ended up killing him first.

There's this video showing off the AI from Skyrim where the player covers the heads of the 2 witnesses with buckets, and they don't end up seeing that he stole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt5aUdijAN8

[oohhboy]

I am not sure whats funnier, the pots or shoplifting without even walking out the door still promotes a suicidally lethal response. You would think they would program in a confrontational dialogue tree where they challenge you giving you the option of putting it back, paying for it, lie, or fight/run when you first get caught. I mean christ, you think they lived in Detroit or something.

[Morari]

[...] at least it doesn't look like yet another Tolkien-esque High Fantasy like all the other Elder Scrolls games do.

I think that's really only true for Oblivion, and it suffered greatly because of it. Morrowind was a very interesting and decidedly different world from what you'd normal see in the fantasy genre.

[BlackNMild2k1]

That's kind of what happened with me. I just got bored.

Although I found this to be kinda funny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTgUm8VEWiU

[Chozo Ghost]

No, I starting killing everyone BECAUSE it was empty and boring.

I don't think that defense would hold up in court.

[NWR_insanolord]

Early indications make it seem like I should be able to run this game through CrossOver, so I may pick it up when I'm done with Mario and Zelda.

[Oblivion]

The one thing I did like was...the water physics?

[broodwars]

So now that I own the game, I went and restarted the game with a new character: a High Elf, due to my love of spell-casting in games like this.  I also picked a different person to follow in the introductory sequence.  I found that this time playing through the game, I've been enjoying it much more now that I don't have my friend looking over the shoulder and subtly pressuring me to keep moving.  I can take my time, poke around, and just enjoy the atmosphere.

My character is at Level 5 so far, with perks focused in Regeneration; Destruction; and Lockpicking.  Leveling-up my skills and stats feels more fun and easier to understand than it did in Morrowind, though I can't say the selection of perks altogether blows me away so far.  I am a bit annoyed at having to crouch all the time to level-up my Sneaking skill, but I suppose I'll thank myself for that later when I have to perform tasks for the Thieves Guild (as well as going for the pickpocket trophy).  From what I've read, the level cap this time around is in the 70s, so unlike Fallout 3 there seems to be plenty of leveling to do.

At the moment, my character is in the Barrow Downs on the sidequest related to the Golden Claw, and I've started having my first encounter with Undead Foes.  So far, my only big criticism of the game is that magic is a bit too useful, to the extent that at the moment I'm wondering why I'm even bothering carrying a bow.  I suppose bow strikes have the advantage of sneak attack damage bonuses and possibly being effective against magic-resistant enemies, but I haven't run into any yet.  I am also really missing Xenoblade's "fast travel at any time, even within a dungeon" feature when I'm dungeon crawling in Skyrim, as it's a royal pain dealing with the weight constraints on my inventory.

[Chozo Ghost]

it's a royal pain dealing with the weight constraints on my inventory.

That's one reason why I said I wanted to make a "Hulk Hogan" character. Huge strength means being able to carry more loot, and that's one of the most convenient ways to build up money. Plus it doesn't hurt to be hauling as much equipment as possible so you can be prepared for whatever situations await you. I would think with your magical elf character the strength would be really low so hauling loot will be more difficult.

[broodwars]

I would think with your magical elf character the strength would be really low so hauling loot will be more difficult.

Possibly (incidentally, my weight limit is 300 lbs.), but the annoying thing is that I'm not sure what I'm supposed to focus on to boost my weight-carrying capacity.  In Fallout 3 or Morrowind, you simply boosted your Strength stat at Level-up time, but that stat no longer exists in Skyrim.  Giant Bomb's Quick Look of the game revealed that you can find an item at one of the Standing Stones that increases your weight limit by 100 lbs., but otherwise I don't know how to boost my character's carrying capacity.  Maybe I'm supposed to get a perk in one of the combat skills?

[Chozo Ghost]

I remember in Fallout 3 there was a perk that let you haul an extra 50 pounds or something like that. I haven't played Skyrim, but its possible there is something like that.

BTW, an elf can haul 300 pounds right from the get go? Wow. If I remember correctly, I think in fallout 3 and oblivion that was the max you could do, assuming you maxed out in that area. Is the new limit 500 pounds or something? Or is this just the default new carrying maximum, and you can't go beyond it?

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

This is on my 'to purhcase' list, but there are other higher priority games I must get to first. My playtime on Oblivion was ridiculous, and while I don't think I have the time any more to sink as many hours into Skyrim, I'm ready for that style of game again.

Broodwars, assuming that most of the same spells carry over to Skyrim, if you work on your Alteration skill, you could get to a high enough level to be able to cast Feather, which boosts your encumbrance limit. That, or if a permanent boost would be preferable, if you can find an enchanting station, you could enchant an item with Feather. As I recall, the character I used in Oblivion, with all the measures I took, could hold 600 pounds, so it stopped being a problem in caves and dungeons.

[broodwars]

Amusing.  On my way to the game's first real town, I was beckoned over by a bunch of drunks who wanted me to partake in a drink.  I offered them a bottle of my own.  In return, they gave me a charm that gives me +25 lbs. to my Carrying Capacity.  And there was much rejoicing.

[Chozo Ghost]

Have you run into any HP Lovecraft references? Bethesda games typically have at least one Lovecraft reference. Oblivion had the town of Hackdirt and the quest there, and Fallout 3 had that one building with the obelisk in the basement, and the Necronomicon. I would reasonably expect Skyrim to have something like that also.

[Morari]

Isn't it about time they make an open-world Lovecraft adventure RPG? I want to be able to walk from Miskatonic University all the way out to Innsmouth and Dunwhich. A lot of the standard RPG tropes would translate over, too. Warriors could become police/investigators. Mages would become Miskatonic scholars. Rouges would be bootleggers and other assorted organized criminals from the time.

They'd really have to bring Sandy Peterson in as a lead designer though. Between his creation of the Call of Cthulhu pen and paper RPG and his work at Id Software on Doom and Quake, he'd be the obvious choice.

[Shorty McNostril]

So like I said initially, this game didn't really grab me like I was hoping it would.  So I took it back and am going to wait until it goes weekly for rental and try again.

Last night I saw Oblivion on sale on Steam for something like $6.  So I downloaded that one to give me chance to get into the whole Elder Scrolls universe.  Thus far it is looking good. 

[Morari]

Oblivion is by far the worse experience you will have in the series. Please keep that in mind.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Well, then maybe after some time with Oblivion, he will appreciate Skyrim when he gives it a second chance.

[Morari]

I'm hoping so.

I wouldn't say that Oblivion is necessarily bad in hindsight. It was just boring after having played Morrowind, both from the standpoint of story and setting. It all felt and looked very generic. A lot of the misdemeanors found within the gameplay itself was due entirely to it having a more console-focused development.

These are all problem Skyrim seem to largely fix... except for the list-style menus.

[Caliban]

Last night I saw Oblivion on sale on Steam for something like $6.  So I downloaded that one to give me chance to get into the whole Elder Scrolls universe.

I did the same thing, but the damn game doesn't want to run on my laptop.

[broodwars]

And so it begins.  I got my first crash in Skyrim mid-battle against a mage up near one of the Standing Stones near the first main town.  Great, it's like Fallout 3 already, where 90% of my crashes happened mid-combat in VATS.  At least I...probably...have an auto-save relatively close to that point since I had just Fast-Traveled in a few minutes prior.

As for my progress before Bethesda's laughably poor programming department decided I was done for the night, I had defeated my first Dragon (thus getting my first Shout) and joined The Companions.  I really need a house to store all my crap right now, but 5,000 gold for one is highway robbery and it's going to seemingly take ages to rack up that much cash given how much the local shops are ripping me off when buying my crap.

I'm doing pretty well on levels so far, as this first town has afforded me many opportunities to raise my Lockpicking Skill.  I've found a pretty good system for raising multiple skills at once in battle as well:

1.  Kill my target with Destruction Magic or my one-handed weapon if it gets too close.
2.  Go into Sneak mode and use Raise Zombie to revive the enemy's corpse as I sneak behind it.
3.  Use a power swing to severely hurt or instantly kill (3X Stealth Attack) my zombie.
4.  If the zombie is too strong to die that easily, whack away at it with my one-handed weapon until it is dead while taking any hits the zombie decides to inflict.
5.  Heal any damage afterwards.

I've found this method pretty effective for raising my Destruction; Sneaking; One-Handed; Light Armor; Restoration; and Conjuration skills pretty much at once.

[broodwars]

I ran into two extremely nasty situations today dungeon-crawling around that first major town.  The first was when I was exploring the caves north of the city, which at first seemed to be the standard issue spiders but gradually got much more dangerous as this new goblin-type enemy started emerging.  My conjured Bound Blades were effective at first, but that didn't last for long.  Thankfully, I had invested in other Conjuring abilities such as Familiar and that fire demon thing, which helped out a great deal.

Actually, I'm gradually finding the Destruction magic not particularly helpful against the stronger enemies, so I've found myself really increasing my Conjuring skill.

I eventually found myself in an ancient dwarven ruins guarded by an intimidating-looking-but-not-particularly-tough Dwarven mechanical golem and another of those goblin things with an instant kill spell.  Yeah, that was fun.  I did eventually manage to kill the goblin using multiple fire demons to wear him down and draw his attention so I could slice at him up close with my Dwarven War Axe, but that took quite a few reloads to pull off.  I picked up a lot of Dwarven junk in there, which I've stored in my newly-purchased house until I know what I can do with it all.

The second really nasty situation was when I found myself able on the map to fast-travel to a location in the mountains north of that 1st city that I'd never been to before.  I don't know why I could travel to it, but I suddenly found myself in a confrontation with a dragon.  The dragon was dispatched simply enough with arrows; magic; and my axe.  However, I noticed a Word wall nearby and was ambushed walking up to it by what's apparently a "dragon priest" named Knosis.  Yeah, that was a fun fight, considering he could control any creature I conjured and was fond of spamming a fireball attack that would wipe out my HP in 5 shots.  Thankfully, using a piece of debris for cover I managed to get his AI stuck trying to figure out how to attack me.  Meanwhile, I shot well over 100 arrows at him until he finally went down, raising my Archery a good 3-4 levels in the process and earning a level-up (and a nifty mask that ups several of my skills by 20% while worn).  I got a full 3-word shout in the process as well, though I could only power it up to the second word.

As an aside, I ran into another dragon today as well back in Rivertown, as it came out of nowhere and suddenly started attacking the town.  That was a fun fight.   

I'm getting increasingly annoyed at how little it seems you can influence the Speech skill.  There are several times I've tried to persuade someone, but the game doesn't tell you your odds and Speech can seemingly only be increased by shopping or those speech checks.  I've yet to successfully persuade anyone, and it's getting annoying.

[Morari]

My biggest beef with Skyrim so far. The menu system is terrible, and gets worse as you play. I'm starting to think that even the menus in Oblivion were better. It doesn't take much to whip up a proper RPG menu system... they had it almost 100% right in Morrowind. See what catering to consoles gets us? Devolution.

[Chozo Ghost]

Games like this should just require a USB Mouse and/or keyboard for play on the consoles. You can get a USB mouse for like what, $10? At that price they could just bundle an official Skyrim mouse with the game if people really don't have one. All consoles have USB ports, so its not like this would be logistically difficult or anything. In a way the analog stick might have been a bad innovation because it has supplanted the mouse even in games where a mouse would have worked better.

[broodwars]

My big problem with the menus is that they are all list-based.  You complain about the game's UI being designed for consoles, yet this isn't a logical way for a console UI to be designed.  It requires way too much scrolling and it's text-based instead of image-based, which would have been much more user-friendly.  Some sort of radial menu or tree-esque layout perhaps?  The "Favorites" system is a joke, a bandaid on an axe wound.  I certainly hope you know exactly what the spells you want to use are named and what they do, because the Favorites doesn't list them.  And while the Favorites will list any marked Shouts at the bottom of the list, it still doesn't tell you what they do when you highlight them.

It's not a bad menu design because it "caters to console gamers" (the game will likely sell best on the consoles, so it only makes sense to design around them).  It's a bad menu design because it's badly designed, where information takes too long to find and there are no sorting options.

After quite a few detours (I'm Level 25 and have killed 6 dragons now, and I have 4 shouts), I'm trying to make my way up to High Hrothgar to meet the Graybeards.  "Trying" is the operative word there, because for the life of me I can't find the path leading up the mountain.  Every path I find stops partway up, and it's getting frustrating.  You'd think a holy path would be better marked.

I've also had some frustrations with the dragons.  I ran into a Blood Dragon near the Eldergreen Sanctuary, which ended up following me to a nearby settlement as I sought a way to get some cover between me and it since it was taking forever to kill.  I managed to kill it, but later when I returned to this settlement to make my way to Iverstead another dragon attacked me in the same place.  And it ate some of the local populace while I was trying to kill it, rewarding me with a nice big "QUEST FAILED" warning.  Great.  You know, when Dueling Dragons at Universal Studios breaks down, the dragons don't EAT the quest-givers! 

[bustin98]

I am level 6 and just spoke with the Greybeards. Are there additional Greybeards to talk to? I haven't gone off quest too much as of yet.

I thought the path was fairly well marked. Avoiding trolls, giants and giant wolves proved the more difficult task with my low levels and weak weapons.

[NWR_insanolord]

My biggest beef with Skyrim so far. The menu system is terrible, and gets worse as you play. I'm starting to think that even the menus in Oblivion were better. It doesn't take much to whip up a proper RPG menu system... they had it almost 100% right in Morrowind. See what catering to consoles gets us? Devolution.

Don't blame consoles; blame Bethesda for being too lazy to optimize the PC version for mouse and keyboard. There's no reason they couldn't have done it both ways. They didn't feel it was necessary to cater to PC elitists like you. That's on them.

[Ceric]

lol,
PC Elitist.  I remember a time when I game like this would be made for the PC then ported around using the modding utility in it.  My how times have changed.

[Morari]

They didn't feel it was necessary to cater to PC elitists like you.

There's nothing elitist about being correct.
The real problem here is that they have once again shot for the lowest common denominator and catered too much to console kiddies. You're right, that's on them. Still, no one should really be playing on a console anyway. The uninformed masses that make up the market surely share in the blame.

Though if Broodwars comment is anything to go by, the menus don't work too well on consoles either. At least I'll have a mod in the coming months to outright replace it... just I did in Oblivion.

[broodwars]

Well, if I was angry at Bethesda before for their repeatedly abysmal programming, that was nothing compared to how pissed off I am at them now.
 
 I decided to go back to Skyrim after just getting bored with Skyward Sword's End Game content, and after quite a few hours I was making some good progress.  I killed several dragons; giants; and mammoths, and fulfilled several quests west of that first town.  Then I decided to head north to Winterhold so I could finally obtain some new spells.  It was a harrowing journey that involved killing several more dragons and a very irate snow bear.  But I did it and reached the College at Winterhold.  I start the opening quest and...another dragon attacks.  The dragon attack then proceeds to completely break that first quest, as the person I'm supposed to be following around just walks around saying I can talk to her when she's done showing me around.  But as far as her AI routine is concerned, she's done.  That entire quest line is locked to me, and it turns out my last manual save was 3 hours prior.
 
 This, Bethesda, is why I constantly complain that it's ridiculous how reviewers and the public let you get away with murder and release games with shoddy programming just because they're "big".  I can hear people saying already that "well, you should have saved more often."  **** that.  It's not my job to have to work around Bethesda's constantly terrible bugs, and this is after the latest PS3 patch (which, incidentally, I still see framerate hitches on).  Ugh...3 hours of content and quite a lot of nasty battles won down the drain.  Thanks a lot, Bethesda, for being incredibly bad at what you do.

[Morari]

If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product.

[bustin98]

I am on my 3rd character, just because I end up running off to the end of the world and get way in over my head. And I whenever I see an article about quickly leveling up I think 'wouldn't that be a better way to start the game?' One character contracted vampirism and I read online that I had to go to winterhold to the talos shrine, not realizing the exact same thing is in Whiterun. I got to Winterhold without much trouble but then my adventures after that got boring, and somewhere I lost my companion. My second character started off much better. Till I attacked the fort near Solitude where the guy was imprisoned by the imperials... got inside the fort by running, no way do I expect to get the guy out without him or me dying. So... third time the charm?

[broodwars]

If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product.

You have the 3 auto-saves on the console version, but by the time I saw that the quest was actually broken (the character was continuing to walk in pattern as if the quest was still working) those 3 were used up and the damage was done.

[Chozo Ghost]

The old leading a monster into a town and people get killed by it routine is nothing new. Oblivion had that problem, and so did Fallout 3 and probably every other open world RPG Bethesda has ever made.

I remember in Fallout 3 those caravan dudes would often end up dead due to Yao Guai or Radscorpions or whatever attacking them randomly out in the wasteland. Many times you would never even know what happened. They would just fail to show up at their designated place at the usual time. Sometimes their pack Brahmin and/or guard would show up though, but with the merchant dead there was no way to do business. I used up stealthboys to reverse pickpocket better weapons and armor onto them to try to improve their survivability, and I think that did help, but they still ended up dead regardless. There's no doubting the wasteland is a dangerous place so them ending up dead is perfectly reasonable... I just hated when it happened.

If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product.

Yes and no. Being able to correct bugs and glitches is nice, but having this omnipotent power can also ruin a game because people may be tempted to use that power to cheat by giving themselves infinite life or making enemies instantly die or what have you.

[Morari]

If you played on the PC, you could just bring the console down and reset that one actor. There are benefits to having control and access over a product.

You have the 3 auto-saves on the console version, but by the time I saw that the quest was actually broken (the character was continuing to walk in pattern as if the quest was still working) those 3 were used up and the damage was done.

I understand the issue. It's but one of the many reasons I've never liked auto-saves. It certainly a valid complaint as well. I was merely pointing out that any Actor Entity can be reset or replaced via developer console commands, at least on the PC. That would essentially knock the AI out her loop and put her back to a point in her routine where you can talk to her. You should look into whether or not the developer console is accessible on your system.

Remember hitting ~ in Quake to type in "/impulse 9" to get all weapons and ammo? Yeah, it's like that.

[broodwars]

Oh look...another terrible Skyrim bug that Bethesda was too lazy to program around.  I made it to the Mage College in Winderhold again.  This time the dragon that broke my game before attacked the main town, so I was able to fend it off there and that first Mage College quest passed without incident.  However, now that I'm in the college, I received a quest to retrieve a copy of "The Waters of Oblivion" from a dungeon near Iverstead.  Here's the problem: I already did that.  I have the book in my inventory.  But because I did that before I received the quest, now the man won't even acknowledge I have the book.  Great.  Did Bethesda really think no one would think to check a dungeon near the middle of the map before going to Winterhold way up on the northern edge of the map?

[Chozo Ghost]

Some of these issues will probably addressed in subsequent patches. That was why I said its probably best to wait a few months for the patches to show up. But looking at Oblivion, there were a lot of issues that did not get patched and Bethesda stopped supporting it after a point. So my point is Bethesda will patch SOME of the issues, but probably not all of them.

[Morari]

The fan made patches have done a wonderful job of fixing anything in Oblivion that was leftover by Bethesda. The same has been true for Morrowind and both Fallout titles.

[bustin98]

There are two quests I completed before being asked to: the dragon stone and the mammoth tusk. But I have seen some weird glitches comparing previous play-throughs.

In no way should this game be considered game of the year, though when it works, it works. Let  a game with less technical issues have those honors.

[broodwars]

So yesterday was a busy day, and an extremely tiring one with little sleep.  I have completed the College of Winterhold quest line, which contained the two most ridiculously long dungeons I've seen yet (4-5 loads deep).  I really liked how that story played out, and I'm quite satisfied with my character's status after completing it.  It's also worth noting that I had to kill another of those dragon priests to clear the last dungeon in that quest line.  Surprisingly, once again I found a dragon priest getting confused by the environment.  I easily sneaked up on him and backstabbed him, followed by a barrage of arrows that killed him before he could even get a shot off.  Krosis, he was not.

Between the probably 3-4 trips each dungeon back out to enchant and sell all my accumulated crap in those dungeons, I have maxed-out my Enchantment skill.  Sneak and Smithing's coming along as well, and I've been collecting Dragon Scales to use in crafting Dragonscale armor once I max out my Smithing.  I have just over 50,000 gold now, so I'm halfway to my goal of 100,000 for the associated trophy.  It's getting pretty annoying trying to sell this stuff once I've enchanted it, though.  I have yet to run into a shopkeeper in this game with more than 1,200 gold, and my enchanted weapons regularly sell for about 650 gold.  That means a lot of Quick Traveling around the world to find new merchants.

I have also started the Thieves Guild and Black Brotherhood quest lines (as well as having joined the Stormcloak faction), though I'm not yet a member of either organization.  By the time I'm done, though, I have a feeling I'm going to be a frickin' Tamriel mafia boss, with control over every major organization.   

As a quick bug report, the game crashed on me when I was "waiting" in Whiterun to get a merchant to appear.  Apparently, this process corrupted one of my autosaves, though thankfully my PS3 was able to restore my other data.  That does not fill me with confidence, though, that this game isn't going to royally screw me over with a crash some day.  My save file is also almost 7 MB, and even with the new PS3 patch the game really chugs in places like Whiterun.  It doesn't feel like Bethesda's fixed anything except having dragon corpses vanish after a while.

[Chozo Ghost]

You know how you said Mass Effect is best played on the 360 because the PS3 didn't have the first one? Well, apparently Skyrim (and pretty much any Bethesda game for that matter) is best played on the PC. The console ports are the most buggy and these also receive the least attention in terms of fixes and support. Maybe since the 360 is the most PC like console maybe the game would play more stabily on that then on the PS3?

[Shorty McNostril]

You know how you said Mass Effect is best played on the 360 because the PS3 didn't have the first one? Well, apparently Skyrim (and pretty much any Bethesda game for that matter) is best played on the PC. The console ports are the most buggy and these also receive the least attention in terms of fixes and support. Maybe since the 360 is the most PC like console maybe the game would play more stabily on that then on the PS3?

I thought this was made for the 360 and ported to PS3 and PC?

[broodwars]

As I type this, my PS3 is currently recovering from the sixth crash this game has triggered in the last 5 hours.  This is also the third time now (2nd tonight) that the crash has resulted in a corrupted auto-save.  Bethesda, would it really have KILLED YOU to release a game that actually works?  And I have nothing but disgust and contempt for every reviewer who gave this game an incredibly high score while also acknowledging all the technical problems.  At least for me on my PS3 copy with a 7 MB save file, this game is rapidly approaching Fallout 3 levels of utter technical instability.  It has become a crash factory for pretty much these last 10 game hours.

Aside from the joy of having to manually reboot my PS3 every hour or so, I did marry my character to one of the miners who lived on the outskirts of Riften.  She becomes a shopkeeper now that she's married, and I can always use one of those with as much enchanting and selling as I do.  I'm currently trying to claw my way through the next story dungeon, which the beginning of the Dark Brotherhood quest conveniently dropped me in front of.  Before the last crash occurred, I had stumbled across a flame trap.  My restoration magic's been extremely slow to level-up lately because my character is just too good.  Between sniping enemies with my Bound Bow conjuration spell or using my summons or magic, nothing's really gotten close enough to hit me.  So I was using that fire trap to constantly hurt me so I could gain some levels just constantly healing myself (since my MP recharges faster than my HP drops).

[Chozo Ghost]

That's great you can marry people. I didn't know that. That gives a nice Rune Factory/Harvest Moon touch to the game.

As for the crashes, I think it should be expected by now that Bethesda games are going to crash. Its just a fact of life, and you have to learn to deal with it. But that doesn't mean these games don't deserve high marks despite that. You seem to be played it a lot which means you must be enjoying it... if you hated the game these crashes would make you break the disc in half and throw it in the trash. But you keep on playing and rebooting because you are having a good time with it... and that's why people rate it highly in spite of the problems.

That said, maybe you should have played it on PC (or 360) instead. The PS3 is probably the least stable platform for this particular game.

[broodwars]

That's great you can marry people. I didn't know that. That gives a nice Rune Factory/Harvest Moon touch to the game.

Don't get too excited.  It's pretty badly implemented.  You have to learn from a cleric in Riften that marriage is possible and is performed there.  You buy a charm that you wear, and certain NPCs in the game will ask you if you want to hook up (sometimes you have to do a quest for them first.  Mine did).  Then all of a sudden, they love your character and you're (happily?) married.  From that moment onwards, their only role in your character's life (assuming you didn't pick a battle character, which you can bring along with you into combat) is to sit around at home; be a shopkeeper in their spare time; and supply you with a 15% skill learn boost for 8 hours after you sleep in your bed at home.

Harvest Moon's romance system is goofy and almost insultingly stereotypical with how you just dump gifts on characters until they like you, but it comes off a lot better than this.

As for the crashes, I think it should be expected by now that Bethesda games are going to crash. Its just a fact of life, and you have to learn to deal with it. But that doesn't mean these games don't deserve high marks despite that. You seem to be played it a lot which means you must be enjoying it... if you hated the game these crashes would make you break the disc in half and throw it in the trash. But you keep on playing and rebooting because you are having a good time with it... and that's why people rate it highly in spite of the problems.

When it works, I do really like the game.  I've put well over 70 hours into the game, and I'll probably put at least 70 hours more into it before I'm done with it.  But I can tell you this: if Bethesda doesn't fix these massive instability problems in the very near future, when I've done all I can stand to do in that game I'm trading it in.   I won't be buying any DLC, and they can deal with a used copy out in the marketplace someone can pay Gamestop for instead of them.

What's really irritating about these PS3 issues is that it's obvious Bethesda and Sony never did any deep-layer testing with this game.  And if they did, they just threw up their hands and said "well, it's a Bethesda game and we don't want Microsoft to basically have exclusivity, so we'll just let the consumer deal with it."  All these crashes and other such glitches occur the further you get into the game and the larger your save file gets.  I can laugh at some of the goofy things I've seen like levitating mammoths and NPCs that fly magnetically through the air to where they're supposed to go.

But I draw the line at crashes.  If a quest breaks, you can reload an old save.  If a goofy physics or graphical glitch happens, you can just look past it.  But a crash is a total unrecoverable systems failure, and they're just getting more frequent the longer I play the game.  They're not even triggering only at Loading Screens anymore, as they also occur now if I spend too much time (i.e. more than 15 seconds) scrolling through the Perk trees, or if I pull up the menu sometimes.  I'm really getting concerned now that these crashes (especially because they're creating corrupted files) are going to have lasting damage on my PS3's hard drive.  And I just know this game will find a way to screw me over and corrupt all my files just as I'm on the verge of a well-deserved Platinum.

That said, maybe you should have played it on PC (or 360) instead. The PS3 is probably the least stable platform for this particular game.

I don't have a PC that can run it, and the only games I like playing on PC are P&C Adventures and RTS games.  As for my 360, that's reserved for Microsoft exclusives and pretty much nothing else.

[Chozo Ghost]

I remember Fallout 3 was really bad when I played it about 6 months or so ago. But from the sound of it you seem to be having even worse trouble with Skyrim. I think maybe at least some of your problem is that you are playing the game so soon after it was released so the patches haven't had time to really roll out yet. I don't know how many patches Bethesda will release for Skyrim. I'm sure they aren't going to patch every single problem, but I would expect they would have at least a few patches to knock some of the major problems out anyway.

When I played Fallout 3 it was long after Bethesda stopped supporting it, so I got the benefit of being able to play it with all the patches in effect. It was far from perfect, but as bad as it was I can only imagine if I was playing the game way back in 2008 when it was first released it was probably much worse.

For that reason maybe you should have waited a year or two for the Skyrim GOTY edition with all the DLC on one disc. By then the game would have seen at least a few patches, and you could have got all the DLC for one price instead of paying $60 now to play a buggy unfinished product.

[broodwars]

Hmm...on a whim, I decided to burn it all and start fresh by deleting my game install data and patch, and then reinstalling it all.  I also unchecked the option to save every time I Wait.  The game has seemed to be a lot more stable since I did this.

[Shorty McNostril]

I remember Fallout 3 was really bad when I played it about 6 months or so ago. But from the sound of it you seem to be having even worse trouble with Skyrim. I think maybe at least some of your problem is that you are playing the game so soon after it was released so the patches haven't had time to really roll out yet. I don't know how many patches Bethesda will release for Skyrim. I'm sure they aren't going to patch every single problem, but I would expect they would have at least a few patches to knock some of the major problems out anyway.

When I played Fallout 3 it was long after Bethesda stopped supporting it, so I got the benefit of being able to play it with all the patches in effect. It was far from perfect, but as bad as it was I can only imagine if I was playing the game way back in 2008 when it was first released it was probably much worse.

For that reason maybe you should have waited a year or two for the Skyrim GOTY edition with all the DLC on one disc. By then the game would have seen at least a few patches, and you could have got all the DLC for one price instead of paying $60 now to play a buggy unfinished product.

But you shouldn't have to. Why should the consumer have to wait 2 years after launch for a game that SHOULD be reliable from launch? If a company releases a game it should work.  It's as simple as that.  The whole "Bethesda make broken games anyway so just deal with it" attitude is not an excuse.  What if any other company released a game that performed as does Skyrim?  They would get raked over the coals for it by everyone possible.  Here we have a company that released broken games for a living and they get praised for it.  What kind of stupidity is that?

With the kind of praise, why would Bethesda even try to release a well built game?  They get praised for pumping out junk, so why spend more time and money on QA if they don't have to?  Those hours and workers can go into building their next broken game.

And can we even trust that Bethesda will really fix all the issues? Apparently Oblivion still has bugs in it and Bethesda didn't bother fixing them.  Why trust that they will fix Skyrim?

[Chozo Ghost]

I don't trust they will fix all the bugs. They will however fix some, and hopefully most of them when all is said and done.

Bethesda games are only "junk" in terms of stability. Aside from that they are addictive and fun, and that's why despite all the problems people will still praise the games and play them.

[Shorty McNostril]

I get that.  When I say junk that is what I refer to.  I realize that aside from the bugs and crashes, there is good software there.  But that is just the problem.  They get praise for creating broken software. 

What would have happened if Skyward Sword glitched and froze every half an hour, or there were bugs everywhere?  Sure the underlying game would have been good, but it would have been ruined by all the dodgy stuff.  What would reviewers have said?  It would have been absolutely decimated by reviews and word of mouth.  Let's continue that scenario for another point.

What if Nintendo released aforementioned dodginess, and after much complaining from the populous said; "Sorry, we released a broken game that every Tom, Dick and Harry was waiting for and as a result gives much grief.  So here are a couple of patches that fix about 30% of the bugs and create other problems at the same time. Enjoy"

What would happen? 

Seriously, how can one be satisfied with a broken game, even defending it?

Disclaimer:  This was not an attack on you Chozo.  More a random rant than anything else.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo DID release a broken game in the form of Metroid: Other M. I'm not talking about how the game was mediocre and not up to the Metroid standards (which is true), but the game killing bug which results in a door being permanently locked and you can't do anything at this point except restart the game over from the beginning, and this happens rather late in the game so having to start all over really sucks.

Actually, I think there was a bug in Twilight Princess which prevented games from being completed also. Seems like I remember people talking about getting trapped in a Dungeon and no way to get out or something like that. I never experienced that bug, but I did experience the Other M one. Did Nintendo ever patch these problems? Not that I know of. Although in the case of Other M they allowed you to send your broken save on an SD card in the mail and they would then fix it and send it back, but I assume you would have to pay postage for that not to mention wait however many days or weeks to get it back.

Broodwars seems to be having a lot of problems, but at least so far he has been able to reboot the system and carry on without having to start the game all over again. With Metroid Other M and Twilight Princess the players who suffered these game killing bugs were not so lucky.

[Shorty McNostril]

What you say is true.  And also proves my point.  Can you remember the reaction when Nintendo came up with their prepostrous bug "fix"?  It was outrage. 

Why does Bethesda get away with it?  Why do their games still get  high scores and the crashes and bugs are just a "minor inconvenience but go buy it anyway"?  The more sales the Bethesda get with broken software the less interest they have in fixing it.

[Chozo Ghost]

I think the difference is Metroid Other M was a mediocre game so it didn't take much to push people over the edge and lose patience with it. But these open world Bethesda RPGs like Skyrim and Fallout 3 seem to so addictive and fun that people are more willing to look past these problems.

I agree with you that doesn't make it right... but I think that's why these games are able to get away with this stuff.

[Morari]

They get praise for creating broken software.

Well, if it works for Apple...

[Luigi Dude]

Nintendo DID release a broken game in the form of Metroid: Other M. I'm not talking about how the game was mediocre and not up to the Metroid standards (which is true), but the game killing bug which results in a door being permanently locked and you can't do anything at this point except restart the game over from the beginning, and this happens rather late in the game so having to start all over really sucks.

Actually, I think there was a bug in Twilight Princess which prevented games from being completed also. Seems like I remember people talking about getting trapped in a Dungeon and no way to get out or something like that. I never experienced that bug, but I did experience the Other M one. Did Nintendo ever patch these problems? Not that I know of. Although in the case of Other M they allowed you to send your broken save on an SD card in the mail and they would then fix it and send it back, but I assume you would have to pay postage for that not to mention wait however many days or weeks to get it back.

Broodwars seems to be having a lot of problems, but at least so far he has been able to reboot the system and carry on without having to start the game all over again. With Metroid Other M and Twilight Princess the players who suffered these game killing bugs were not so lucky.

The bugs in Other M and Twilight Princess were both one thing in each that the majority of people playing weren't even effected by and can be easily avoided when you know how they're activated.  With Bethesda games though, the majority of people playing experience them and can happen anywhere which makes them very hard to avoid.  Plus Other M and Twilight Princess are the only two Nintendo games to have a major bug in them.  Look at all the other games Nintendo's release though, everything else is pretty much bug free.  Meanwhile, everything Bethesda releases is pretty much bug city.

This is why I wouldn't compare Nintendo to Bethesda since bugs in Nintendo games are still very rare and even when games like Other M and Twilight Princess have one, the bugs are only triggered by doing something that the majority of people playing the games never even end up doing and can avoid doing.  Unlike Bethesda games were bugs are everywhere and can happen at anytime and anyplace.

[broodwars]

The major bug in Twilight Princess required the player to save their game when they're in the cave where you originally find the Canon.  Then they had to quit and reload their save, which would send them back into the cave but with the door out locked so they could never leave.  It was a nasty bug that I believe was fixed in later versions of the game, but I really can't imagine more than .5% of the players who played the game deliberately saving there and then turning the game off for the night.  It's definitely an A-class bug, but with such an extremely low user path it's easy to see how Nintendo missed it.

As for the Metroid Other M bug, I'm much less sympathetic to Nintendo on that one because you triggered it by playing the game like a previous Metroid title: you get a new power-up, and then you attempt to backtrack to see what you can do with it.  Still, I don't think that's a particularly high user path in that particular game, since the whole game just constantly pushes you to move forward and avoiding the bug is only 2 rooms ahead.

With Bethesda, though, you trigger these bugs just by playing the game, and playing it the way Bethesda encourages you to play it: deliberately exploring and doing whatever you want whenever you want.  You accomplished a task before the game asked for it?  BUGS!  You played the game for longer than apparently Bethesda's recommended game time?  BUGS!  You try to access the Skills screen at any point in time to select a perk?  BUGS!  You access the map after an auto-save when the game doesn't feel like it (as I just saw when my PS3 crashed)?  BUGS!  You enter a loading screen?  CRASHES!

I have major issues with how the industry as a whole lets Bethesda get away with really terrible programming and QA, instead passing it all on to the consumers.  Now, as a former QA tester, I can tell you that NO game is bug-free.  It is not humanly possible to program a bug-free game.  The best you can do is to wipe out all the bugs that you can, with an emphasis on bugs users will likely ever see.  Nintendo minimizes their bugs by putting their games through extremely long development cycles and minimizing their scope, since the larger your game gets the more moving parts the game has to keep track of and the larger the likelyhood of major bugs.

On the flipside, Bethesda programs beyond their capability, building "big games" with huge scopes because they know that people will let them get away with anything bad that comes of that.  Honestly, I'm really liking Skyrim when it works right, but it really didn't need to be this ridiculously huge and complicated (especially if they plan on selling big DLC packs later).  I would have taken a substantially-smaller game world and fewer quests if it meant the game didn't crash my PS3 every few hours.

[Chozo Ghost]

the bugs are only triggered by doing something that the majority of people playing the games never even end up doing and can avoid doing.

That's a load of crap. I don't know if the majority was effected or not, but the Other M problem was very widespread. The bug was triggered by backtracking at a certain place, which was something I did because I just went through this fire area and was at poor health so I was desperately searching for a save thing or energy tank or something like that as I remember it, because I didn't want to move forward into a new area on such low health. I don't know what other players might have been thinking, but I think I had a good logical reason for backtracking and besides that the Metroid games are supposed to be about exploring and finding items and stuff.

Metroid Other M was garbage because you didn't find your powerups via exploration as you usually do, but instead you have them and just can't use them until Adam authorizes them. That's bullshit and it goes against the spirit of Metroid. But at that time I was playing the game as if it were a Metroid game and I was exploring, and I got punished for it. You are telling me I was doing something wrong or something I wasn't supposed to do... but that is what you are supposed to do in Metroid.

So if that effected the majority or not I don't know. Maybe it didn't. But long time Metroid fans like myself who expect to be rewarded by exploring and backtracking were very likely to be hit by this bug. Maybe not a majority, but I don't think its accurate to say this effected only a small percentage of players. A lot of people were effected by that.


Now as for Nintendo games being of high quality and generally bug free, that is true... or at least it was true. You say Twilight Princess and Other M are the only Nintendo games to have game killing bugs like that, and that may be true as far as I know, but I find it very alarming that these two games were released recently in the same generation. It looks bad when you have a company with a flawless track record for decades and then all of the sudden major problems like this pop up repeatedly. I really do believe things have been going down hill at Nintendo ever since Reggie and Iwata took over. These sorts of problems didn't exist when Yamauchi was running things.

And bugs aside, I never expected such garbage as Other M to be released by Nintendo. The fact this is a Nintendo game has really shaken my faith in the company.

[Tamazoid]

2 times isn't repeatedly. That's two times out of all the Nintendo games released for the Wii. I'm sure there were glitches and bugs in earlier Nintendo games.  The point is that both the TP and Other M glitches are only triggered by doing a certain action that a fraction of gamers would take that's why the game testers missed it.


Reggie would have minimal impact on the development of games as he's just purely PR for NA I don't know why Americans always bring up Reggie for the reason of Nintendo's decline. Other M isn't the first crap game Nintendo has released and it won't be the last. All gaming companies have released atleast one crap game in their lifetime.

[Chozo Ghost]

a certain action that a fraction of gamers would take that's why the game testers missed it.

*Sigh* I thought I already addressed this.

Well, I'm not again. If you don't get it then you are just like Reggie, Sakamoto, and Iwata, because apparently they don't get it either. Only a fraction of Other M players would play the game like a Metroid game? If that is what Nintendo believes then its doubtful they will make a good Metroid game ever again. Now that Retro is no longer making Metroid games, that's it. The franchise is dead.

[oohhboy]

Two games from Nintendo, each with only one show stopping bug is enough to shake your faith in them?!? I just have to ask how much faith you had in them in the first place. Metroid isn't dead. At worse it's being left fallow. It got over exposed and Retro should be given the opportunity to make something different. It will get rotated back in good time.

Buggy games this bad shouldn't be tolerated no matter who makes them. It doesn't matter if a painting might be the best thing ever painted if the picture is peeling off the canvas. It doesn't matter how awesome a house is if it doesn't have a proper foundation and it's the same with games. Bethesda has released so many outrageously buggy games to the point where it's a meme for buggy/broken games, like Valve' delays with it's "Valve time".

**** like this is a classic case of Battered person syndrome. Gamers keep playing nice in hopes of bug fixes while Bethesda continues to openly abuse the relationship. Even Stockholm syndrome is a better relationship since the hostages get to go home after it's over.

Point(s) should be docked for obviously buggy games. If nothing else, it would provide a good incentive for companies to release less buggy games since for a lot of companies those first 2 weeks are where the big sales are made. I don't see why reviews give a pass on bugs found in a game. It's in the game, it's part of the game, it most certainly affects gameplay especially when they stop you from playing the game.

[Chozo Ghost]

Two games from Nintendo, each with only one show stopping bug is enough to shake your faith in them?!?

Not just because of the bugs. I could have looked past that as long as Metroid: Other M were as good as all the other games in the Metroid series. It wasn't though. Even if you take that one bug out of consideration the game is still garbage, and that's what shook my faith, because that game has the Nintendo name attached to it and I expected better.

Its the equivalent of some great painter who has been putting out masterpieces for decades, but then all of the sudden he releases some piece of crap done in crayons and colored outside of the lines and looks like some little kid made, yet it has his name attached to it and it is his latest work. Wouldn't this come as a shock?

[Tamazoid]

a certain action that a fraction of gamers would take that's why the game testers missed it.

*Sigh* I thought I already addressed this.

Well, I'm not again. If you don't get it then you are just like Reggie, Sakamoto, and Iwata, because apparently they don't get it either. Only a fraction of Other M players would play the game like a Metroid game? If that is what Nintendo believes then its doubtful they will make a good Metroid game ever again. Now that Retro is no longer making Metroid games, that's it. The franchise is dead.

What's with your Reggie hate? I didn't know Reggie has a say in the production of Nintendo games. Reggie is purely PR for NA and would have limited say in the running of Nintendo Japan. Your irrational hatred of Reggie is quite amusing.


  Nintendo obviously attempted to take the Metroid series into a new direction in Other M and it failed. You can't complain that Nintendo are just sticking to the same formula as many people complain. If one bad game kills a franchise Sonic should be dead buried and gone.

[Chozo Ghost]

Reggie has nothing to do with the production of the games, but he is responsible for the marketing. He is on record saying the game didn't meet his expectations, and apparently he doesn't understand why. That's why I said he didn't get it. I seriously doubt he even played the game personally and I also doubt he is a long time fan of the series, so that's why he wouldn't understand why people didn't like it. I don't blame Reggie for this so much as Sakamoto because he is the one who made it and should have known better. Reggie can sorta be excused for not knowing better, but really it is his job to understand what gamers want and if he isn't a gamer himself then he needs to start being one, or else go back to VH1 where he came from.

[broodwars]

Well, I think I've finally hit it: the bug that will lead to me stopping play immediately, trading the game in, and never playing the game again.  The crashes I can deal with, as annoying as they are.  But early on in the Thieves Guild quest line, you're given a set of what to me were pretty useless Thieves Guild Armor.  I couldn't be bothered to trudge all the way back to my house to store it, so I sold it to the local Thieves Guild fencer.

Well, it turns out that very fencer is also the person who upgrades your armor, and until she can upgrade your armor she can't be used as a fencer anymore.  To make matters even better, you apparently CAN'T complete the Thieves Guild quest line without a piece of Thieves Guild armor, and that's the only set of its kind in the game.  I can't complete this quest line and I can't get the trophy for restoring the Thieves Guild now.  I am beyond angry now, because it means all the time I've already put into this quest line and all the time I was going to put into it have been a complete waste of time.  Considering all the useless crap the game labels as "quest items" you can't get rid of if you wanted to, these armor pieces weren't considered important enough to force the player to keep?

**** this game.  I'm done.  I'm done with Bethesda's B.S.  I'll give them a few weeks to fix this bug, but otherwise this game becomes trade-in credit.  I have completely had it with their horrible programming.

[Chozo Ghost]

Can't you kill her and take the armor off her corpse? Or Pickpocket it?

Your problem reminds me of a problem I had in Oblivion where the Queen or whatever she is of that Nord town in the north sends you in a quest to these ruins or whatever to retrieve some ancient artifact and I did that and gave her the artifact but I then pickpocketed the artifact off her and then the quest was complete, but now I had this item which was considered a quest item so I couldn't drop it or fence it or do a damn thing with it. My problem wasn't as bad as yours obviously, but it reminds me of that.

[GoldenPhoenix]

Reggie has nothing to do with the production of the games, but he is responsible for the marketing. He is on record saying the game didn't meet his expectations, and apparently he doesn't understand why. That's why I said he didn't get it. I seriously doubt he even played the game personally and I also doubt he is a long time fan of the series, so that's why he wouldn't understand why people didn't like it. I don't blame Reggie for this so much as Sakamoto because he is the one who made it and should have known better. Reggie can sorta be excused for not knowing better, but really it is his job to understand what gamers want and if he isn't a gamer himself then he needs to start being one, or else go back to VH1 where he came from.

As we know Chozo's opinion is fact, some of us actually enjoyed Metroid Other M. So please stay on topic of bugs, not rants on why your opinion of Metroid Other M being "garbage" is absolute fact. Guess what I'm a long time Metroid fan (I bought Metroid 1 back when it was new!) and I really enjoyed the game.

Now back on topic, it is ridiculous how companies are allowed to get away with a myriad of bugs in their games. Bathesda is one of the worse offenders, I enjoy their games but they seem to feel they can get away with releasing unfinished, buggy messes, which is why I wait on purchasing them until they have cleared up most of them.

It seems most developers who got their start in consoles, are quite good about limiting the bugs in their games, while those who started on the PC and moved to the consoles can be hit or miss.

[broodwars]

Can't you kill her and take the armor off her corpse? Or Pickpocket it?

Nope.  Once you've sold or lost this armor, it's gone forever.  You can't just kill or pickpocket another Thieves Guild member obviously wearing it, either.  It never shows up in anyone's inventory.

The only positive in all this is that I looked on Bethesda's forums, and this very issue is very high on their unofficial Bugs list.  There's a very good chance Bethesda will fix this issue in some form or fashion, though they haven't commented on it.  In any case, I wouldn't expect a patch for quite a while, since the last patch Bethesda put out for this game only made things worse.

[bustin98]

Thanks for posting about this because I just started the Theives Guild quest. Now I know not to get rid of the armor.

[Killer_Man_Jaro]

All this talk of bugs is depressing. I really wanted the PC version of Skyrim and was considering asking for it for Christmas, but this kind of crap is inexcusable. I had a lot of fun with Oblivion, but Fallout 3 was the most disappointing game of this generation by a country mile for me, and the preponderance of bugs was a huge part of that disappointment. You ask me to pay no small amount of a money for a game, you better make sure it freakin' works.

I have to say, it is sort of shocking that reviewers gave these problems a complete pass. "There were all these glitches and the game even froze a few times... pffffft, oh well, what'cha gonna do? 10/10" I don't care how good the game is when everything's working all right - if a game hard locks your system on multiple occasions, that's not some trivial detail that you just skip over as if it has no bearing on your enjoyment.

[broodwars]

My biggest problem with Bethesda is that they have these big ambitions, and then they proceed to design beyond what they're capable of actually programming.  They remind me of Ian Malcolm's big speech in Jurassic Park:

Dr. Ian Malcolm: I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done, and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could, and before you even knew what you had, you, you've patented it, and packaged it, you've slapped it on a plastic lunchbox, and now
 [pounds table with fists]

 Dr. Ian Malcolm: you're selling it.
 [pounds table again]

 Dr. Ian Malcolm: You want to sell it, well...
 
John Hammond: I don't think you're giving us our due credit. Our scientists have done things which nobody's ever done before...

 Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.

Bethesda is so concerned with pushing the envelope of just how much unnecessary crap they can cram into these games that they never stop to think if their engine is actually capable of doing it.  For example, is it really necessary to keep track of each and every person you've slain and the state of their body once you leave an area?  Is it necessary to keep track of each and every thing you interact with exactly as you left it?  Stuff like this is what causes the file size to skyrocket and gradually pushes the engine beyond what it can handle.  The result? Massive glitches and inevitable crashes.  I'll gladly take a smaller and more focused game from Bethesda if it means the game actually works like it should.

I'll acknowledge that Bethesda is a visionary in pushing the immersion of games.  Lord knows they've certainly hooked me several times with their big worlds and wanton freedom to explore.  But I look at other games that have come out this year that are now thought to be "lesser", and I wonder why?  Arkham City isn't a big massive world that tracks every single thing you can do, but Rocksteady knew their limits and designed within them.  The result is that the game is very solid and polished, and it's never once crashed on me.  It's the same with Portal 2, Xenoblade, Resistance 3, Child of Eden, Deus Ex HR, etc.  Al the great games that came out this year not from Bethesda are much better designed, and yet they'll likely get snubbed due to this game come Game of the Year time.  What a pity.

[broodwars]

A poster on another of my boards posted this excellent article by The Digital Foundry showing just how badly this game runs on PS3 with larger save files, as well as educated theories as to why that is.  There's even video so you PC and 360 gamers can see for yourselves how badly Bethesda screwed up here.

[Ceric]

You know I didn't think the PS3 had less useable RAM then the 360.  That explains some things.

[broodwars]

You know I didn't think the PS3 had less useable RAM then the 360.  That explains some things.

There are undoubtedly hardware-specific issues with this game that's just native to how the PS3 works, but it begs the question of why Bethesda didn't optimize the game to work within those specs (like most companies do, and their PS3 ports tend to turn out fine).  Oh right, because they're Bethesda and working with what you have rather than what you want is for "lesser" companies.

And it is pure amateur hour that Bethesda designed this game to steadily increase the file size of the save file as the user changes things from their default state.  Nothing good ever comes from having a file that can grow unchecked by the rest of the system.

I'm just furious with myself for buying into Bethesda's lies with this game.  I somehow managed to finish Fallout 3 despite it being the buggiest game I'd ever played at that time.  Then Obsidian released New Vegas, which was even buggier and used the same engine.  Then Bethesda promised us all that Skyrim wouldn't be as unplayable as those two games eventually got.  Then they release a half-assed PS3 port of Skyrim, and it's just as bad if not worse.  And I was suckered into giving them $60 for it.  Well, never again.

[Chozo Ghost]

Broodwars, there is an Elder Scrolls wiki and you may want to consult that whenever you get new items or whatever so you can find out if these things are needed or not. I guess you are probably close to being done with the game so it might not really matter, but here is the link anyway.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim

I've found this site extremely helpful when I was playing Oblivion. It is even better than any game guide you could buy, because unlike a game guide this is constantly being kept up to date, and unlike a game guide this wiki is completely free. You can also edit to it if you have anything new to add.

Edit:

how badly this game runs on PS3

Well, you do have a 360.... I know you said you reserve that only for Microsoft exclusives, but maybe you should allow an exception for Bethesda games?

Obviously Bethesda is a PC first developer. That's where their roots are and that's what their focus is. The 360 is the console most similar to PCs so that would be next in line. Finally, in third and final place there is the PS3 which Bethesda treats as their redheaded step child. Maybe once the Wii U is out Bethesda will decide that system will be their redheaded step child and abuse that and maybe the PS3 will be treated a little better, but until then apparently the 360 is the best console for this.

[Chozo Ghost]

All this talk of bugs is depressing. I really wanted the PC version of Skyrim and was considering asking for it for Christmas, but this kind of crap is inexcusable.

If you are getting the PC version you should be completely fine. You can fix any problems you might run into on the PC version by using the console and typing in the appropriate commands to reset things or whatever. This is only a problem if you are playing the game on PS3 or 360 because there is no console with which to fix these problems, but if you intend to play it on the PC you will be fine... so just go ahead and get it.

[broodwars]

Broodwars, there is an Elder Scrolls wiki and you may want to consult that whenever you get new items or whatever so you can find out if these things are needed or not. I guess you are probably close to being done with the game so it might not really matter, but here is the link anyway.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Skyrim

I've found this site extremely helpful when I was playing Oblivion. It is even better than any game guide you could buy, because unlike a game guide this is constantly being kept up to date, and unlike a game guide this wiki is completely free. You can also edit to it if you have anything new to add.

Yeah, I've been occasionally using that guide when the game is vague about certain quests.  I didn't think to look up the Thieves Guild Armor issue there until it had already happened, just because it didn't seem possible that something that trivial could screw up your game.  But hey, it's Bethesda.  Where there's a Will to screw up a game, there's a way.

The fact that people are recommending that players following internet guides to avoid running into game or quest-ending bugs is just a sad commentary on this whole situation.  If Bethesda ever fixes the Thieves Guild bug, I'll probably keep using that Wiki.

Speaking of which, IGN PS3 posted this Skyrim editorial today chastising Bethesda for releasing a "broken game" at launch.  There's some pretty inflammatory language in there, as well as reports of utter silence from Bethesda and Sony on the matter.  If I didn't know any better, I'd say IGN was attempting actual journalism for once.

[Chozo Ghost]

Broodwars, I edited that post just as you were replying to it.

[Morari]

All this talk of bugs is depressing. I really wanted the PC version of Skyrim and was considering asking for it for Christmas, but this kind of crap is inexcusable.

If you are getting the PC version you should be completely fine. You can fix any problems you might run into on the PC version by using the console and typing in the appropriate commands to reset things or whatever. This is only a problem if you are playing the game on PS3 or 360 because there is no console with which to fix these problems, but if you intend to play it on the PC you will be fine... so just go ahead and get it.

I was about to say the same. I didn't realize that the developer console was gutted from the PS360 version until after I had suggested it to Broodwars earlier in the thread. Too bad about that, as it would get you around just about every complaint listed here. Of course, I haven't had nearly the problems on the PC anyway, so it's kind of a moot point. I guess it's just another thing to put up their with superior controls. better graphics, and a modding community.

[broodwars]

Broodwars, I edited that post just as you were replying to it.

Reading what you posted in that edit, if I had known before the game came out that the PS3 version would be even worse technically than the PS3 versions of Fallout 3 and New Vegas, I would have gone with the 360 version.  But IGN comments in that article that Bethesda would not send sites PS3 copies of the game, so they had to buy their review copy at retail.  It didn't get the scrutiny it should have as a result.  All anyone actually said about the PS3 version when it came out was that it had better textures.  We didn't know until weeks later when the PS3 players finally hit the magic save file size that the game was completely broken.

But the die's been cast and I'm not starting the game over on a new system.  Besides, the bug that really irritates me right now with the Thieves Guild quest line is afflicting 360 owners as well.  That would have happened regardless.  I would just be seeing few crashes and less abysmal framerate issues in crowded areas.

[broodwars]

All this talk of bugs is depressing. I really wanted the PC version of Skyrim and was considering asking for it for Christmas, but this kind of crap is inexcusable.

If you are getting the PC version you should be completely fine. You can fix any problems you might run into on the PC version by using the console and typing in the appropriate commands to reset things or whatever. This is only a problem if you are playing the game on PS3 or 360 because there is no console with which to fix these problems, but if you intend to play it on the PC you will be fine... so just go ahead and get it.

I don't want to give Morari satisfaction for all his gloating, but the PC version really does seem to be the one to go with on this game.  I haven't heard any major problems with that version, and any of Bethesda's poor programming can easily be fixed by the community.  It is a good game when it's not being terrible to me, so by all means check it out on PC if you're interested.

[Chozo Ghost]

One thing Bethesda probably should have done differently with the PS360 versions is just have left the console in the game to allow players to reset problems themselves if necessary. I'm not sure why they took it out, but it might have been due to concerns about cheating with it, which is a valid concern, especially when trophies are involved. You would end up in a situation where 90% of the people with Platinum trophies didn't really deserve them. So maybe Bethesda ripped that feature out at Microsoft and Sony's behest.

[TJ Spyke]

Couldn't they have set something up where achievements/trophies were disable if you messed with it? That's what the smart developers do when it comes to cheat codes, they might put them in the game but set it up so if you use them then achievements are disabled.

[Morari]

I imagine the console was removed to "simplify" the experience, as opposed to prevent cheating. Certainly no one really cares about cheating in a singleplayer game?

[bustin98]

Micrososft puts the boot down on those who boost their gamerscore in any way other than expected game play. Sure, you can build a lego robot to push a button over and over, but that is just working the system. Access to the console would allow players to skip areas of the game altogether, or make certain achievments moot (collect 100,000 pieces of gold...).

[broodwars]

That 100,000 Gold trophy is pretty easy to get, though.  I already have it.  You can thoroughly abuse the system by just enchanting every weapon you get with the Banish trait, and it turns 8 gold items into 600-700 gold items easily.  A couple of days ago, I was easily making about 10,000 gold or more a dungeon just making repeat trips out to sell all the stuff I could carry once enchanted.

But yeah, it's scary how much Microsoft cares about the achievements in even single-player games.

[bustin98]

I'm still trying to figure out how not to be such a loser of a character. I just need better armor. And a weapon or two that deals a rediculous amount of damage.

[broodwars]

I'm still trying to figure out how not to be such a loser of a character. I just need better armor. And a weapon or two that deals a rediculous amount of damage.

I suggest devoting some points to Smithing, particularly the Light Armor path (the leftward path).  You can forge some more than acceptable armor and weapons fairly quickly, and Smithing isn't too hard to level-up as long as you just keep churning out Leather and Iron gear.

[Chozo Ghost]

I imagine the console was removed to "simplify" the experience, as opposed to prevent cheating. Certainly no one really cares about cheating in a singleplayer game?

It matters if trophies are involved. Imagine if the military gave out purple hearts to everyone just for joining. How would that make the people feel who actually earned them?

[broodwars]

Bethesda has released an update on their blog, stating that a new 1.3 patch is coming soon.  This patch will not fix the many PS3 issues, but merely the things they broke with their last patch (such as backwards flying dragons and magic resistances not calculating).

They also are begging for PS3 players to send them their save files, as they "can't" figure out what is causing the game to be near-unplayable the more players advance through it.  Yeah, suuuuuure they can't, considering this is pretty similar to how Fallout 3 and New Vegas play on PS3.

Finally, they note that they will not be issuing any patches with quest fixes until January, so sucks to be us if you run into one of the many quests that get locked by shoddy programming.  And of course, as always they are fond of reminding us that "it is a big game", as if it is not their fault that they made a game too big to competently QA.

[Chozo Ghost]

January is less than a month away. I know that sucks if you are left hanging in a game, but at least there is hope some or most of these problems will be fixed eventually. Ideally these should have been fixed up before the game was released, but if you  want to know why they weren't I think the answer is they wanted to get it out for a holiday release and capitalize on all that.

No doubt the game needed more time in the oven, but the holiday season waits for no man. So it had to be rushed out for the sake of sales. But a game like this I would expect to have extremely long legs, so they didn't really need to rush it, did they? A lot of games sell good initially and then they burn out and drop off the radar, but this game here will probably be like their other games in that it will have decent sales 5 years from now. Basically by spending $60 to play it now you have the honor of being an early beta tester for what will one day be an awesome game, but isn't quite there just yet.

[Morari]

I imagine the console was removed to "simplify" the experience, as opposed to prevent cheating. Certainly no one really cares about cheating in a singleplayer game?

It matters if trophies are involved. Imagine if the military gave out purple hearts to everyone just for joining. How would that make the people feel who actually earned them?

Those people who earned their Purple Hearts should already feel like fools.

Regardless of that though, you can't seriously compare the two. Maybe it's just a console thing, but I've always seen achievements as being throwaway indicators of manufactured progress. About the only time I've ever seen them used well is when they're inserted more as tutorial goals in the beginning. Certainly they're not worth sharing across profiles, trying to see who has the bigger e-penis, and definitely not worth gutting games of useful information and tools.

[TJ Spyke]

Really Morari? You think people who risk their lives to save their fellow soldiers are fools? Wow, my opinion of you has dropped even lower (which I didn't think was possible).

Achievements are a very nice addition to games this gen, and something that should be standard in every game from now on (it will be a fail if Wii U doesn't have a universal system for it). One good reason is that they encourage people to do more in games than they might have before. For example, I never would have bothered creating songs in Guitar Hero 5 if there weren't achievements involved.

[Ceric]

I just watched an Extra Credit relevant to this conversation.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/achievements

[Morari]

Wow, my opinion of you has dropped even lower (which I didn't think was possible).

It upsets me so much to know that I've let you down. After all, your opinion means the world to me.

[TJ Spyke]

I wish there was a way to block other people (like Facebook has).

Back on topic. Skyrim looks interesting, but I won't be getting it anytime soon. For one, I have still not even play Oblivion. Second, all the bugs reported so far.

[NWR_insanolord]

I wish there was a way to block other people (like Facebook has).

I don't think you'd like it if we had that, given how many people would undoubtedly use it against you.

[Chozo Ghost]

Yeah, it probably would be best not to open that can of worms. The best thing to do is just manually skip over posts if you feel the need to, and you can also report posts to the mods when someone crosses the line (which I don't think has happened in this thread yet).

[Caliban]

So apparently there's this huge alchemy (like in Full Metal Alchemist) that can be performed, and I'm not talking about a small transmutation circle. It's a Skyrim wide transmutation circle.

Huge Spoilers

[Shorty McNostril]

So I hear the new patch broke the game even more?

[bustin98]

I have found that the game has become easier now that I dialed down the difficulty I may actually try to finish more than the main quest.

[broodwars]

A minor update, but Bethesda has now officially come out in an interview with Kotaku and admitted what we already knew: that they knew Skyrim was a P.o.S. on PS3 before they launched it, but they released it anyway essentially because they could (and they somehow only thought a small percentage of users would run into its many issues).  They figured that 3 months later, they'd get around to patching the issues as they collected their "earned" Game of the Year Awards.  You know, as someone who's worked in QA I can be sympathetic to a developer needing to ship a game, and so occasionally have to set aside small issues for post-release patches.  But Skyrim PS3 didn't have small issues.  The experience was completely ****ing broken and unplayable.  Shipping Skyrim PS3 in the state it was in was inexcusable.

[Chozo Ghost]

At least the game is going to get fixed EVENTUALLY. That's more than what can be said for a lot of shitty games, such as E.T. and Superman64.

From their perspective, yeah I'm sure they felt they had to get the game out in time for the holidays. But they could have just released the PC and 360 versions then and delayed the PS3 version a few months until it was polished off. Sony probably would have been pissed by that, though.

[Morari]

Everyone should have known that Skyrim would end up being a POS on consoles years ahead of time.

[Oblivion]

It's a POS no matter what machine you play it on.

[TJ Spyke]

Here on NWR is pretty much the only place I see Skyrim get **** on. For example, all 3 hosts of the CAGcast )one of the best video game podcasts IMO) love the game and it has a Metacritic average in the 90s (92 for PS3, 94 for PC, 96 for X360).

[Shaymin]

That's because we largely expect games to work.

92 on PS3
F**k this industry.

[TJ Spyke]

I should point out that the bugs are not reported to be as bad either. If I had any interest in this type of game, I would get it since all the reviews I have seen say the bugs are relatively minor.

[broodwars]

I should point out that the bugs are not reported to be as bad either. If I had any interest in this type of game, I would get it since all the reviews I have seen say the bugs are relatively minor.

If you have the 360 & PC version, you've only had random crashes; locked quests; and general issues with dragons to worry about.  You know, "minor things" like that.  On PS3, you had all those and frequent crashing and framerate issues.  Maybe it's just me, but I think only people indoctrinated by decades of patching on PC could see such issues and call them "minor".

Now, if you believe the patch notes for 1.4, most of the issues I've named have now been fixed.  I couldn't tell you from my own experience, because in the 3 months it took Bethesda to care I got rid of my copy.  I'll have to borrow my best friend's copy to finish the game, and I'm really not in a hurry to do so since I have a feeling as usual Bethesda's created more issues than they've fixed with these patches.

[Morari]

It's a POS no matter what machine you play it on.

Funny, I haven't had a single issue with the game other than some NPCs with shaky path-finding. Now of course, the menu system itself is a POS... But that's just consolitis for you. It's almost kind of satisfying to know that the game performs so terribly on consoles, after what poor design decisions their presence has brought to the series.

[Caliban]

Do the enemies level up as your main character does, like in Oblivian?

[Ceric]

Do the enemies level up as your main character does, like in Oblivian?

I barely got into Oblivion and hated it.  I would have hated it more going into it if I found that out.  I hate when all NPCs level with me.  It becomes whats the point of leveling?

[Chozo Ghost]

Do the enemies level up as your main character does, like in Oblivian?

I barely got into Oblivion and hated it.  I would have hated it more going into it if I found that out.  I hate when all NPCs level with me.  It becomes whats the point of leveling?

Well, I read in Skyrim you get points when you level up which you can spend on perks just like in Fallout 3.

[broodwars]

It's almost kind of satisfying to know that the game performs so terribly on consoles, after what poor design decisions their presence has brought to the series.

The many bugs and issues with Skyrim have nothing to do with it "being on consoles", and everything to do with Bethesda being an incompetent developer that has no understanding whatsoever of their limits.  Skyrim is not the first nor will it be the last Elder Scrolls game with game-crippling bugs, as Bethesda has neither respect for the QA process nor any desire to actually ship a finished, quality product.

[Fatty The Hutt]

Biggest issue I have noticed so far is what the kids and I call "glitch horse". That crazy damn horse can stand in mid-air and climb sheer, steep mountainous terrain.
 
Provided us many howls of laughter, so no complaint there.
 
We have the PS3 version and are not very far into the game at all.

[Stogi]

I played this game for roughly 24 hours straight.

I then gave it away immediately.

[Chozo Ghost]

I played this game for roughly 24 hours straight.

I then gave it away immediately.

Does that mean you didn't like it? Or does it mean you liked it too much for your own good?

[Stogi]

haha What do you think?

[pokepal148]

Bump because some people suck at using the forum's search feature.

[Stratos]

More like the search feature sucks. There were only 6 threads that came up when I typed Skyrim.