Topic: Episode 260: Zero-Sum Xenomics

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, the nVidia Tegra chips are going to change a lot of people's perceptions of what "cell phone gaming" can be.  Games are getting REALLY good and smartphones are getting REALLY powerful.

That's not going to help if devs cannot afford to use all that processing power. There's a reason modern games sell at 60$ a piece and still need to shift a few million copies to merely break even. The mentality on cellphones doesn't allow prices above 5-10$ and they're trending more towards selling the game for free and nickel-and-diming you with microtransactions.

BTW, the Xperia Play has shoulder buttons too. I got one a few days ago (it dropped to 290€ and I wanted to replace my shitty old nokia brick), now I'm trying to figure out a way to pay for Android apps without applying for a credit card. Google really doesn't care about Germany as a market. Apple has tons of payment options AND there are gift cards in every damn store you can think of but Google only accepts a few credit cards and that's it.

[Ceric]

Yeah, the nVidia Tegra chips are going to change a lot of people's perceptions of what "cell phone gaming" can be.  Games are getting REALLY good and smartphones are getting REALLY powerful.

That's not going to help if devs cannot afford to use all that processing power. There's a reason modern games sell at 60$ a piece and still need to shift a few million copies to merely break even. The mentality on cellphones doesn't allow prices above 5-10$ and they're trending more towards selling the game for free and nickel-and-diming you with microtransactions.

BTW, the Xperia Play has shoulder buttons too. I got one a few days ago (it dropped to 290€ and I wanted to replace my shitty old nokia brick), now I'm trying to figure out a way to pay for Android apps without applying for a credit card. Google really doesn't care about Germany as a market. Apple has tons of payment options AND there are gift cards in every damn store you can think of but Google only accepts a few credit cards and that's it.

Couldn't you get one of those reloadable Credit Card gift card things.  Then you wouldn't actually need to get a true credit card just remember your amount.

[lolmonade]

My biggest issue is that it seems impossible to locate the gems out of the giant crap-pile that is the iOS market.  It's simple to find critically acclaimed games like Angry Birds (And its 10 different iterations) or Plants vs Zombies, but other than that I just don't see much coverage on mobile phone games, which makes it difficult to get a consensus on the games that are truly worth getting. 
 
I enjoyed the piracy vs used games discussion.  Game developers need to realize that the typical gamer is not going to pay full price for any game after a certain amount of time has passed, and tiered pricing shouldn't just apply to throw-away minigame collections and games based on tv shows.  If they are comparing used purchases to pirating, they're showing complete disdain towards their customers instead of getting to the root of the problem.  I would love to have paid for a brand new copy of Super Mario Galaxy a year ago, but I couldn't justify paying $50 for a game that had been out for 3 years, and it wouldn't be until just recently that they made a sharp price drop to $20.  Why not gradually reduce the price over the years? I would have gladly paid $30 last year for a copy of the game  (it's what I paid for it used), and instead of giving my $ to Nintendo it went to some guy off of Ebay.
 
Console developers pricing is too high a barrier to entry.  This is the true cause of the emergence and prevalence of used sales. Want my money for your game Mr. publisher?  Realize that to me as a gamer, the monetary value of buying the game to me decreases as time passes, whether you want to believe it or not, and I will find a means to obtain the game for a reasonable price if I wait for it, even if it means you are not compensated for my copy.
 
(Disclaimer: I do not advocate piracy except for out-of-print games that are not available for purchase from the developers/virtual console)
 

[Ceric]

Games don't understand the model that comes so easy to video:

Movie Theater:
Release Price
6 Months:
Home Media (Less then a Family of Four to the Movie)
2-3 Years (Based on Popularity):
Pull for re-release or Bargain Price

What I really wanted to comment on is that I agree with lolmonade finding good Mobile Games is hard even with the reviews right there because there are so many.  Lucky my WinPhone requires Demos on all of them and that helps.  Though look at our own site, the general policy is to not review downloadable games.  Why?  Aaron/Megabyte has a post somewhere about this but it mostly boiled down to cost, manpower and monetary.

Its easy to argue that Nintendo's downloadable presence is vastly smaller but, even it doesn't have reviews for all of the content.

[Kytim89]

I said it a while ago and everyone thought I was crazy but what Apple could do is create a Gameboy of their by taking the basic model of the iPhone and place two buttons and a d-pad onto it and charge maybe $99.99 to $129.99 for it and market it towards casual gamers. Add plenty of storage and then encourage developers for the IOS to put as many cheap games onto the system as possible.

[Ceric]

I said it a while ago and everyone thought I was crazy but what Apple could do is create a Gameboy of their by taking the basic model of the iPhone and place two buttons and a d-pad onto it and charge maybe $300 to $400 for it and market it towards casual gamers. Add plenty of storage and then encourage developers for the IOS to put as many cheap games onto the system as possible.

I adjusted your prices to account for the Apple Premium.
 
Edits:
Thats a little low to tell you the truth.  iPod Touch is $229 to $399 and if they were to even bother with a game system we're talking $399+ for the high end model to even make sense.  Think about all the moaning about a $250 3DS.  It was only $21 Smaller then the smallest of the iPod Touch Series which would be around the closest Apple Equivalent.  Though I could upgrade my 3DS to the same space as the Almost top line iPod Touch for $39.99 making it $289.99 so about $10 cheaper then the Almost Top Storage one.

[Kytim89]

The price premium aside, if Apple really wanted to get Nintendo's backside hurting all they would have to do is create a cheapper version of their iPhone, or perhaps remove the phone portion from the device. They did something similar to this with the Ipod Shuffle, which was a poor man's iPod.

[Ceric]

...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...

They did... Its called the iPod Touch.

[Kytim89]

...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...

They did... Its called the iPod Touch.

Slap two buttons and a d-pad onto it and call it a day.

[lolmonade]

...
remove the phone portion from the device. [in reference to iPhone]
...

They did... Its called the iPod Touch.

Slap two buttons and a d-pad onto it and call it a day.

But the thing is that I could never envision Apple doing that.  That's why you encounter things like the iCade.  Apple doesn't really care about the games, they care about selling iPod/iPhones.  It just so happens that mobile phone games are one of many features that Apple can tout to sell their hardware.

I can't see them selling a glorified iPod touch with physical buttons.  And I doubt current leadership is going to consider releasing a peripheral that the iPod touch/iPhone, as I would expect them to follow a very similar path that Steve Jobs had envisioned. 

Ceric also mentioned the complications with Apple's pricing.  The only Apple item reasonably priced is the Apple TV, and that's because it's meant to Trojan Horse you into purchasing Movies, tv shows, and music through the box.  I think it's more likely to see Apple offer iOS games playable through Apple TV than further invest in bolstering their mobile gaming with peripherals when their biggest market are casual gamers who probably wouldn't purchase them.

[jimwood27]

Phones are moving away from having any sort of input that isnt just touching the screen so I dont see that being a huge threat.  Apple will NEVER have actual buttons and d-pad on the iPhone/Touch so while the tech in the phones will continue to improve, they will not be capable of replicating buttons/pad.  The hardware will be very capable of having its own software that uses the touch in interesting ways but will never be able to do a Mario game as well as a 3DS.


Also, the App Store always gets put on some pedestal as a digital store done right but my experience has not been very rosy.  If the game/app isnt in the top 25 or featured, it is impossible to find unless you know exactly what you are looking for.  Maybe the cream rises to the top but its hard once the top has been established.  I dont find it much better than Nintendo's digital stores, to be honest.

[Ceric]

Steam is a better implementation but, a lot of that is Valve stirring the pot with features and sales. 

[KDR_11k]

My biggest issue is that it seems impossible to locate the gems out of the giant crap-pile that is the iOS market.  It's simple to find critically acclaimed games like Angry Birds (And its 10 different iterations) or Plants vs Zombies, but other than that I just don't see much coverage on mobile phone games, which makes it difficult to get a consensus on the games that are truly worth getting. 

I follow TouchArcade for that, the forums there will cover practically anything worth playing. I'm still looking for an equivalent for Android phones though.

Steam is a better implementation but, a lot of that is Valve stirring the pot with features and sales. 

Steam is also a better implementation of an online gaming service with community features and all that. I remember a recent Giant Bombcast where they were blown away by all the features Steam offers even compared to something like Xbox Live (they mentioned the group feature which lets you join game specific groups and then have quick access to players in that group when it comes to sending game invites, it's a good way for finding people who have the game and like to play it even without friending them or anything). Steam is basically way ahead of anything offered on consoles. PSN Plus offers cloud uploads amounting to about 150MB? Steam does 1GB without a monthly fee.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Lindy-

I normally take anything that comes out of your mouth as either gospel truth or comedy gold, but I can't say that I see phone gaming becoming ... anything worth caring about... for some time. When people can cite more than 3 successful games, I'll start considering it.

everyone-

now time for a c-c-c-COMBO BREAKER!!! I mean... episode responses...

1. I keep out of the PC game... game... for exactly that "arms race" reason.  That's why console/platform gaming is so awesome.  The devs worry about the hardware, not us!!  Sadly, I think the markets are on the way to merging with things like the multiple SKUs of the PS3/60 or even the DSi.

2. Wayforward really impressed me with A Boy and His Blob.  I thought it was so well made that I will always pay attention to their releases in the future.

3. Some people are HD-whores.  I am an online co-op whore (yeaaa Monster Hunter!).  So, a StarFox w/ online co-op would be sooo amazing!!  And hey, I would play as Slippy! Slippy's the man!

4. Oh my god, we've spent the last X years complaining about not getting the "big" games on Nintendo platforms, and now some people are gonna complain about maybe not getting the most obscure stuff?!

This is why gamers have trouble getting respect in mainstream culture... we just sound like this guy to them.

Let's just say, based on the Nintendo audience, I have no worries that we'll always get the unique/interesting games.

5. As someone who just purchased a used PSP SOLELY to play old Monster Hunter games, I gotta say handheld really is very useful for that franchise.  I have already found myself taking the PSP anywhere I might get a free few minutes so that I can do that "one more" hunt.

6. I completely agreed with the "Xenoblade paradox" before this episode. Thanks for enlightening me. Also kinda nice to hear someone in gaming media take the stance that the gamer doesn't have responsibility to buy ("support") certain products.

7a. Nice discussion on the used game market.  I never thought it could be a GOOD thing for developers.  I will say this though: game companies shouldn't make their games so flappin' disposable if they don't want people trading them in!! I'm looking at you Madden, Street Fighter, and any game with a forthcoming "DLC included edition."

7b. Just to be clear, is the used game market completely legal?  I thought technically places like GameStop didn't have legal right to make those sales but that no game company would put their foot down about it.  Can anyone verify this? ... I think I might have heard that from David Jaffe though.  And he is a confirmed idiot so.... I probably shouldn't trust that source.


8. Don't worry, Lindy, I'm with ya on MH's camera.  I do wish you could remap some of the button placements, but the free camera really is ideal and when you take it away (like on the PSP) you have trouble.  This is why I can see why Capcom would really push for that 2nd analog stick fof MH4.  However, I think the virtual stick that while be on the 3DS' touchscreen should more than suffice.

9. I don't have much sympathy for someone looking for FPSs these days.  You can more or less throw a rock out the window and hit a FPS.  If the Wii's library of FPSs was not up to his liking, 100% of the alternative choices would have covered him.

Good call on RS2 though. Fantastic game... wish it could get a sequel =\  C'mon bearded cane, man! Make it happen!

[Ax23000]

KDR_11k already touched on Minecraft, but I just wanted to echo his statement that you shouldn't expect a titanic shift in Minecraft's focus come release day in November.  Yes, they are adding some sort of goal to the game at some point before release, but it's likely to be a VERY loose goal.

Minecraft is about player driven goals.  You decide what you want to do and then you do it.  Notch and his small development team set-up the world and the way your character moves through that world, but it's up to you to decide what to do.  This isn't likely to change a whole lot at any point.

In other words, don't think of this game as Zelda.  It will never be Zelda.  A better Nintendo analog would be Animal Crossing.  Your loan to Tom Nook is a loose goal, but most players aren't overly concerned with it.  I know I never fully paid the guy off at least  .  Whatever goal Notch gives Minecraft will likely be something along those lines.  Yeah, it's there, and you might do it some day...but it doesn't really drive the game.

When I play Minecraft I set myself goals.  When I first started it was all about finding diamonds, which are fairly rare.  This required a lot of spelunking and underground exploration.  Later I focused on finishing a massive fortress over-looking the sea.  Eventually I set-off from home across the water in a boat and founded a new base.  Then there was the time I built a portal to hell.  Or the time I downloaded the planes mod, built an airstrip and airplane and explored via sky.

In my latest adventure I'm off searching for a Mushroom biome.  So far I've crossed forests, climbed massive mountains, slogged through swamps and deserts.  I spent two days crossing an ocean, befriended a wolf, and most recently summoned a snow golem, who wandered around throwing snow balls.

My point with all this is that there's plenty to do in the game now, but if you don't like setting your own goals you shouldn't expect to find the game much more appealing come launch.

P.S. Terraria might be more your cup of tea if you want something closer to Zelda.  Like Minecraft, it involves a randomly generated world where you collect resources to craft items.  Unlike Minecraft, it has a ton of enemies and bosses.  Probably the best part of the game are the really cool items, which include everything from laser swords, to jet packs, to grappling hooks.

[KDR_11k]

Also Minecraft is pretty good at creating interesting terrain to explore. I never really got into the creative part, the most I built was a basic house. I'm more of an optimizer, I'd build big castles if there was a gameplay need for that. As it is I built an effective archer tower and a place containing the crafting and storage stuff and that's it.

[Ceric]

Also Minecraft is pretty good at creating interesting terrain to explore. I never really got into the creative part, the most I built was a basic house. I'm more of an optimizer, I'd build big castles if there was a gameplay need for that. As it is I built an effective archer tower and a place containing the crafting and storage stuff and that's it.

I could just see your house in RL.

A media room with a mounted TV and Surround speakers mounted on the wall.  Computer with Wireless Keyboard and mouse with desk in the corner but a switch to put it on the big screen.  Garage for car.  Room with bed and 1 bathroom that links to the room and hallway. Kitchen.  Attic with floor.  With all the doors in such a way to optimize travel.  So the Garage door would line up with the Media room.  Kitchen door lineup with Room door.  Etc.

Done.

[NWR_Lindy]

In terms of cell phones, I think it's incorrect to think that the way things are now are the way they're always going to be.  Not having proper control schemes and not having proper reviews of games are both solvable problems.

[Kytim89]

Nintendo would be msart to partner with Valve and allow Steam intergration onto the Wii U. Nintendo could also contract Valve to build Nintendo an online system that would better attract third parties and consumers and at the same time offer a better online experience than its compeititors. Also, to me it would seems like a good idea for Nintendo reformat the Wii Shop channel into something similar to Steam.

[Sundoulos]

I've enjoyed playing Final Fantasy Tactics on my ipod touch...  There are definitely some quirky things about the controls, but they are mostly sufficient.   There are any number of DS-style games that would work well on a phone platform, I think.

 

[Chocobo_Rider]

In terms of cell phones, I think it's incorrect to think that the way things are now are the way they're always going to be.  Not having proper control schemes and not having proper reviews of games are both solvable problems.

How about this: eventually someone will partner with someone, let's say Apple and a Sony, and release the "PSG" or "PlayStation Gala" (a type of apple AND an important event).  This device will be a PSV+ that makes phone calls and can download even crappier cheaper games.

I mean, the PSV will already have an option to contract with AT&T, so, I think this is the future for Sony.

In other words, I don't think cell phone games are going to take over, but I think the line between cell phone gaming and traditional handheld gaming will eventually disappear completely.

The only question that remains is how companies will deal with price expectations on software the way Iwata has discussed.  I am not looking forward to that "race to the bottom," but I do think mankind will find a way to make it work ... especially if there is money to be made, right? =)

[Ceric]

N-Gage says Hi.

[Chocobo_Rider]

N-Gage says Hi.

N-Gage says hi, but oddly enough, only "idiotic design and timing" said hi back. =)

[NWR_Lindy]

I agree with NinSage...that line is going to be blurred.  We're already seeing the line between console and portable being blurred with PS3 and Vita.  The same thing will eventually happen with dedicated gaming handhelds and smartphones.  The handhelds are incorporating social networking, Netflix, and Skype, while smartphones are incorporating console-style games and control inputs.

We're moving closer and closer to the era of the all-in-one mobile uber-device.  We're not quite there yet, though.

[Chocobo_Rider]

Lindy-

I also think that, in the not too distant future, we won't have portables and consoles as much as portables and TV devices that display those portables on the big screen and use secondary controllers for local co-op.

Basically, it is exactly the Wii U model if the tablet controller were a 3DS.... and they certainly are fairly similar objects.

Throw in phone calls and bam... uber device.


You could still have AAA budget hogs and cheap interesting games in this model.  Prices and expectations would just have to be adjusted accordingly.

Think how awesome it would be if the Wii/DS library shared the same platform??!

... but perhaps I'm forgetting a fatal flaw in this concept?