Author Topic: Mario Galaxy  (Read 236458 times)

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Offline mantidor

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1025 on: December 05, 2007, 07:49:42 AM »
The camera in Mario 64 wasn't amazing, it was just that the puzzles weren't that great and didn't need a lot of thought on the camera.

Sorry if 'm a little blunt but is just retarded to say that Mario 64 is in any way superior to Galaxy, Galaxy crushes every aspect of it, the only thing Mario 64 has going on is the nostalgia and of course the huge milestone that was the 2D-3D jump, that no game will ever match (unless we go virtual reality or something like that).

So yes Galaxy has room for criticism but has absolutely none when compared to Mario 64.

Oh and the camera was perfect for me, it allowed movement when I needed it and when it was fixed it was fixed exactly the way I needed it, I have no idea what game you were playing.

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Offline Kairon

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1026 on: December 05, 2007, 07:53:24 AM »
Well, if there's any one thing that may lean people more towards Mario 64 than Galaxy, it's that Galaxy is far more linear and far more corridored compared to Mario 64's intensely free-roaming exploratory experience. I don't think it's a bad thing, I may even prefer it a little, but some people go the other way on that. *shrug*
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1027 on: December 05, 2007, 08:00:05 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, if there's any one thing that may lean people more towards Mario 64 than Galaxy, it's that Galaxy is far more linear and far more corridored compared to Mario 64's intensely free-roaming exploratory experience. I don't think it's a bad thing, I may even prefer it a little, but some people go the other way on that. *shrug*


I think that's one of my favorite things about Galaxy. My favorite levels in 64 were the Bowser worlds and my favorite thing about Sunshine was the FLUDD-less special stages, I just think platforming is at its best when it's linear.
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Offline EasyCure

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1028 on: December 05, 2007, 08:21:34 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: insanolord
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Well, if there's any one thing that may lean people more towards Mario 64 than Galaxy, it's that Galaxy is far more linear and far more corridored compared to Mario 64's intensely free-roaming exploratory experience. I don't think it's a bad thing, I may even prefer it a little, but some people go the other way on that. *shrug*


I think that's one of my favorite things about Galaxy. My favorite levels in 64 were the Bowser worlds and my favorite thing about Sunshine was the FLUDD-less special stages, I just think platforming is at its best when it's linear.


agreed in full.

i dont get the complaints with the camera. after my first time playing it i might of agreed because running completely around the smaller planets was disorienting at first but im used to it now and i like that i dont have to fuss with the camera. i will agree however that hindering the first person view is a shame because its really fun enjoying the beautiful words they've created, but i dont find myself using it as much as i thought i would. I've never once diead because of the camera and when it shifts on its own, its not as confusing as i thought it would be (when i first heard of the auto camera). the camera controls in Mario64 were no where near perfect either. in levels such as Bowsers' where there were no edges to keep you from falling and lotsa twist and turns, manipulating the camera while running was a pain and caused death on a few occasions. Now with galaxy we get similar areas with an auto camera and its like a blessing.

i think sthis surpasses mario64 in greatness. i've already put in a couple of hours, have about 30 stars or so, and every new galaxy i visit has something that makes me crack a smile and keep proving just how amazing this game is. from the moment i turned it on to the moment i'll eventually finish it, i know i'll think "wow, this game made me feel like a kid again".

its just that amazing



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Offline DAaaMan64

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1029 on: December 05, 2007, 08:33:21 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KashogiStogi
Is the camera really that much of an issue?

Have you ever died as a result of the camera?


YES example:  

That level where you were collecting 100 purple coins on 2d luigi and you had to line yourself up for a couple of long jumps.  If you didn't get them straight; you'd either end up not getting all the coins or dieing. There are examples of this in the game many times.  Not being able to manipulate the camera and get a straight jump is very annoying.

Don't get me wrong tho, this game is this years Jesus
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Offline The Traveller

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1030 on: December 05, 2007, 09:05:00 AM »
I had much more problems with the Mario 64 camera. I replayed it before Galaxy and sometimes the camera was downright terrible. There is nothing really wrong with Galaxy's camera, it works.

Offline Chode2234

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1031 on: December 05, 2007, 09:36:47 AM »
I personally like the more linear nature, and therefore automatic camera, of SMG.  Mario is not an exploration game but a platformer, and I appreciate that return to its roots.  

You shouldnt need to explore every nook and cranny in the world, you should get from point A to point B without dying.

I think its great.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1032 on: December 05, 2007, 09:38:59 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Chode2234
I personally like the more linear nature, and therefore automatic camera, of SMG.  Mario is not an exploration game but a platformer, and I appreciate that return to its roots.  

You shouldnt need to explore every nook and cranny in the world, you should get from point A to point B without dying.

I think its great.


Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1033 on: December 05, 2007, 09:51:56 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.


Which is why I think it's fine that that Mario is exploring linearity in 3D worlds. Just like Nintendo's melding 2D and 3D, they're melding linearity and exploratory free roaming.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1034 on: December 05, 2007, 09:56:54 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.


Which is why I think it's fine that that Mario is exploring linearity in 3D worlds. Just like Nintendo's melding 2D and 3D, they're melding linearity and exploratory free roaming.


Then I guess that makes Resistance Fall of Man the best game ever, because it blends super linear design with 3D worlds. In fact the game industry has been stuck on linear worlds with some 3D exploration, like Ratchet and Clank as well. Personally I think it is more of a step back instead of a step forward.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1035 on: December 05, 2007, 10:25:19 AM »
I enjoy both types of levels.  I would have noticed if all levels were either way.  
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Offline Bizzy_Fatso

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1036 on: December 05, 2007, 10:28:40 AM »
I think you guys are misunderstanding me...I like the automatic camera, and most of the time it does a fine job of giving me a good view of the action.  HOWEVER...there are levels where I am able to manipulate the camera in certain ways...for example, on the Bee Mario galaxy I am able to rotate it around, and on some other stages I am able to press the small trigger on the nunchuk to recenter the camera behind Mario, but on other stages I have no control whatsoever.  Where is the logic in this?  If I can do it on one stage, I should be able to do it on them all...even if the camera goes back to an auto state when I start moving, that would be fine, but the arbitrary limitations on some stages which don't exist on others are just stupid, and they hinder my ability to enjoy the levels because I can't pan around and easily check everything out.

Offline Bizzy_Fatso

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1037 on: December 05, 2007, 10:30:32 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.


Which is why I think it's fine that that Mario is exploring linearity in 3D worlds. Just like Nintendo's melding 2D and 3D, they're melding linearity and exploratory free roaming.


Then I guess that makes Resistance Fall of Man the best game ever, because it blends super linear design with 3D worlds. In fact the game industry has been stuck on linear worlds with some 3D exploration, like Ratchet and Clank as well. Personally I think it is more of a step back instead of a step forward.


Ya...Crash Bandicoot did linear levels in 3D looong ago.  I don't need that.... I much prefer the openness of Mario 64 to the linearity of Galaxy..maybe I'm in the minority, but that's my opinion

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1038 on: December 05, 2007, 10:31:34 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Hostile Creation
Anyway, there's a simple solution: don't fall into the quicksand.


Really? Tell that to depth perception when it's not cooperating with you, oh wait, I meant the camera isn't cooperating with you.

Offline EasyCure

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1039 on: December 05, 2007, 11:33:50 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bizzy_Fatso
I think you guys are misunderstanding me...I like the automatic camera, and most of the time it does a fine job of giving me a good view of the action.  HOWEVER...there are levels where I am able to manipulate the camera in certain ways...for example, on the Bee Mario galaxy I am able to rotate it around, and on some other stages I am able to press the small trigger on the nunchuk to recenter the camera behind Mario, but on other stages I have no control whatsoever.  Where is the logic in this?  If I can do it on one stage, I should be able to do it on them all...even if the camera goes back to an auto state when I start moving, that would be fine, but the arbitrary limitations on some stages which don't exist on others are just stupid, and they hinder my ability to enjoy the levels because I can't pan around and easily check everything out.


Maybe i'm just not that far into the game but i've only experienced what you're talking about in the smaller >worlds, the ones that are kind of like a bonus to earn one or two stars then you get the “galaxy complete!” message, and all of then are fairly short and the most linear stages in the game. Take for instance the Sweet-something galaxy: you start off with only one direction you can go in, straight. Then you make a right, then a left, then a right again and... GOAL! I LOOOOVE COCOLATE MINT!

That's it? Sure you do lots of jumping to avoid falling but there's nothing to explore. Its made to be a linear stage and the awesome Mario 3 music proves it's oldschool emphasis! Its not a level like the beehive world where you know you have to get from point A to point B, but wait! Whats that? Oh you found a secret star at point C!

See the difference in goals here? On one level you only have one mission so they omit control over the camera, where as other much larger worlds will be revisited and have areas you might only see during a specific mission, hence an emphasis on exploration, hence more versatility in the camera.

Those smaller, more linear levels were designed that way on purpose and moving the camera around at your own will would be a distraction. In the level i mentioned you wouldn't even want to touch the camera cuz you'd end us falling thru one of those scrolling cookie-cutter shapes
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1040 on: December 05, 2007, 12:35:44 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.


Which is why I think it's fine that that Mario is exploring linearity in 3D worlds. Just like Nintendo's melding 2D and 3D, they're melding linearity and exploratory free roaming.


Then I guess that makes Resistance Fall of Man the best game ever, because it blends super linear design with 3D worlds. In fact the game industry has been stuck on linear worlds with some 3D exploration, like Ratchet and Clank as well. Personally I think it is more of a step back instead of a step forward.


Resistance isn't a platformer, it's a first-person shooter. What's good in one genre isn't necessarily good in another.

The word "linear" has negative connotations in the gaming community, and I don't think it deserves them. There are some times in certain genres where being linear is the right way to go. I'm not suggesting they make every level like Cookie Cutter Galaxy, they shouldn't abandon exploration, but I think the genre could stand to be more linear than Super Mario 64. While we're on the subject, I think one area in which Galaxy should have more of an exploration element and is actually the worst of the three 3D Marios is the overworld. Peach's castle in 64 and especially Delfino Plaza in Sunshine were a lot of fun to explore, and the Comet Observatory isn't. I think more linear levels with an big, expansive overworld that encourages exploration is the best of both worlds and would be the best way to structure a 3D platformer.
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Offline DAaaMan64

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1041 on: December 05, 2007, 03:53:28 PM »
Quote

While we're on the subject, I think one area in which Galaxy should have more of an exploration element and is actually the worst of the three 3D Marios is the overworld. Peach's castle in 64 and especially Delfino Plaza in Sunshine were a lot of fun to explore, and the Comet Observatory isn't. I think more linear levels with an big, expansive overworld that encourages exploration is the best of both worlds and would be the best way to structure a 3D platformer.


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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1042 on: December 05, 2007, 04:39:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: insanolord
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.


Which is why I think it's fine that that Mario is exploring linearity in 3D worlds. Just like Nintendo's melding 2D and 3D, they're melding linearity and exploratory free roaming.


Then I guess that makes Resistance Fall of Man the best game ever, because it blends super linear design with 3D worlds. In fact the game industry has been stuck on linear worlds with some 3D exploration, like Ratchet and Clank as well. Personally I think it is more of a step back instead of a step forward.


Resistance isn't a platformer, it's a first-person shooter. What's good in one genre isn't necessarily good in another.

The word "linear" has negative connotations in the gaming community, and I don't think it deserves them. There are some times in certain genres where being linear is the right way to go. I'm not suggesting they make every level like Cookie Cutter Galaxy, they shouldn't abandon exploration, but I think the genre could stand to be more linear than Super Mario 64. While we're on the subject, I think one area in which Galaxy should have more of an exploration element and is actually the worst of the three 3D Marios is the overworld. Peach's castle in 64 and especially Delfino Plaza in Sunshine were a lot of fun to explore, and the Comet Observatory isn't. I think more linear levels with an big, expansive overworld that encourages exploration is the best of both worlds and would be the best way to structure a 3D platformer.


I don't think linear is bad, but I was mainly referencing that it has been done to death and isn't revolutionary anymore. Mario 64 when it came out was revolutionary, it impacted games to come, I don't see Mario Galaxy, regardless of how great it is, doing much for gaming unless we have obvious copy cats that use the planetoid model. My favorite levels in Mario Galaxy were the big ones, and I wish there were more of them.
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Offline Bizzy_Fatso

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1043 on: December 05, 2007, 04:42:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: EasyCure
Quote

Originally posted by: Bizzy_Fatso
I think you guys are misunderstanding me...I like the automatic camera, and most of the time it does a fine job of giving me a good view of the action.  HOWEVER...there are levels where I am able to manipulate the camera in certain ways...for example, on the Bee Mario galaxy I am able to rotate it around, and on some other stages I am able to press the small trigger on the nunchuk to recenter the camera behind Mario, but on other stages I have no control whatsoever.  Where is the logic in this?  If I can do it on one stage, I should be able to do it on them all...even if the camera goes back to an auto state when I start moving, that would be fine, but the arbitrary limitations on some stages which don't exist on others are just stupid, and they hinder my ability to enjoy the levels because I can't pan around and easily check everything out.


Maybe i'm just not that far into the game but i've only experienced what you're talking about in the smaller >worlds, the ones that are kind of like a bonus to earn one or two stars then you get the “galaxy complete!” message, and all of then are fairly short and the most linear stages in the game. Take for instance the Sweet-something galaxy: you start off with only one direction you can go in, straight. Then you make a right, then a left, then a right again and... GOAL! I LOOOOVE COCOLATE MINT!

That's it? Sure you do lots of jumping to avoid falling but there's nothing to explore. Its made to be a linear stage and the awesome Mario 3 music proves it's oldschool emphasis! Its not a level like the beehive world where you know you have to get from point A to point B, but wait! Whats that? Oh you found a secret star at point C!

See the difference in goals here? On one level you only have one mission so they omit control over the camera, where as other much larger worlds will be revisited and have areas you might only see during a specific mission, hence an emphasis on exploration, hence more versatility in the camera.

Those smaller, more linear levels were designed that way on purpose and moving the camera around at your own will would be a distraction. In the level i mentioned you wouldn't even want to touch the camera cuz you'd end us falling thru one of those scrolling cookie-cutter shapes



I can understand and appreciate what you're saying.  There have just been several instances where I've reached up and hit left or right on the d-pad to try and pan the camera around, just to get the big error symbol indicating that I can't do it, and it just pisses me off every time.  I don't stop and think 'oh, in the context of this level, it doesn't make sense to pan the camera to the left because the level is meant to be linear'....all I think is 'why the hell won't they let me pan the camera around???'  Maybe that's just me tho...

Offline Hostile Creation

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1044 on: December 05, 2007, 06:48:30 PM »
Rome wasn't built by whiners.  I fell into quicksand once and had no problems thereafter.  Surely my depth perception is no worse than anyone else's.  I don't even have perfect eyesight and my updated glasses prescription hasn't come in yet, so things are blurry around the edges.

That said, the camera did have its quirks, but never to the degree that it was ever detrimental.

I love the mix of linear and exploratory in this game (it is generally linear, but even so, it often manages the illusion of exploration or free-roaming).  The worlds in this game are so beautifully developed, not only visually, but in the way you move through them.  My sense of satisfaction playing within this linear realm of jumping from world to world is immense, and a great deal of that is indebted to the design of the levels.  They've managed to work lots of secrets and pockets of exploration into a largely linear game.
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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1045 on: December 05, 2007, 07:15:08 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: GoldenPhoenix
Quote

Originally posted by: Chode2234
I personally like the more linear nature, and therefore automatic camera, of SMG.  Mario is not an exploration game but a platformer, and I appreciate that return to its roots.  

You shouldnt need to explore every nook and cranny in the world, you should get from point A to point B without dying.

I think its great.


Except Mario IS part exploration, in fact Mario 64 set the standard for all 3D platformers in that area like the 2D games set the standard for linear levels. Mario has never been about a particular standard, but setting new standards for a genre.
Okay, well let's take it from this quote. With the coming of Galaxy, there are now two different types of 3D Mario games - the more exploration-based ones (64 and Sunshine), and the more linear ones (Galaxy). I love both styles to death, which is why Galaxy made me appreciate Sunshine even more. It's such a totally different game that you can't really compare the two. And it's made me even more annoyed at the people who bash Sunshine even more now that Galaxy's out.

BUT, if you look at it, Mario Galaxy is the most "Mario" of all the 3D games. The blended gameplay and integration of dimensions makes it almost feel like you're playing a 2D game. You said yourself that Mario is about setting new standards for a genre. Well, this IS a new standard. Having a game more like Sunshine or 64 wouldn't make it nearly as fresh as it is now. Then you'd see people complaining how it's so much like the other 3D Marios. So you like exploration more than linear platforming? That's fine, but that in no way makes Galaxy a worse game.

As I said before, the game doesn't have any flaws. I consider a flaw pretty major; having you die right away in quicksand is not a flaw. It's a minor annoyance which does little to detract from the overall game.

And like mantidor said, the camera is perfect. I have no idea how Mr Jack or GP have died several times because of it. I'm not even that good at many games normally, but the perspectives in Galaxy became second nature to me quickly, however warped they were. I guess everyone has a different experience.

You know, how I feel about Galaxy is nearly exactly how I do about Super Mario Bros 3. For sentimental reasons, my two favourite games are still the original SMB and SM64. But I'm willing to concede that SMB3 and Galaxy are technically the best 2D and 3D Marios, respectively.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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RE: Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1046 on: December 05, 2007, 07:40:42 PM »
^Everything he just said is the absolute truth.
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Offline Nick DiMola

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1047 on: December 06, 2007, 01:51:54 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
And like mantidor said, the camera is perfect. I have no idea how Mr Jack or GP have died several times because of it. I'm not even that good at many games normally, but the perspectives in Galaxy became second nature to me quickly, however warped they were. I guess everyone has a different experience.


I never had problems with the upside-down camera or any of that business associated with disorientation. I had problems with the camera zooming out unnecessarily far, turning while I was mid jump, turning while I am running to the other side of a building and not turning in time. Also to clarify something, it wasn't always a fact that I died in the traditional sense as a result of the camera, but failed a challenge due to the camera moving and the time had run out.

I understand all of this is a direct result of the automatic camera, and I also understand that it is impossible to make it perfect, but doesn't change the fact that it's annoying. Whenever the developer takes camera control out of the hands of the player in a 3D game you are bound to have camera issues, it is just a fact.

As GP has said, the 2D linearity in 3D platform games has been done to death (See Ratchet & Clank, Crash Bandicoot and others) and I don't consider it the ultimate 3D experience. Galaxy felt very small to me because it lacked the awesome exploration of Sunshine and SM64. Each level was so packed with stuff to do, it just made every level seem enormous and full of depth. Removing this structure from the game just really hurt it for me. This is why Sunshine is probably my favorite 3D Mario. It had a nice mix of both.

Another excellent point made, is the boring overworld. This is also a major trip up and I think it really effects the whole game. I know everyone really loves this game, I do too, but I can't overlook all of it's shortcomings.
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Offline GoldenPhoenix

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1048 on: December 06, 2007, 04:28:18 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold


And like mantidor said, the camera is perfect. I have no idea how Mr Jack or GP have died several times because of it. I'm not even that good at many games normally, but the perspectives in Galaxy became second nature to me quickly, however warped they were. I guess everyone has a different experience.


Once again I will use the collapsing ceiling level in the desert world as an example. Though it is more a control issue than a camera one because it retains 3d controls yet your path is from a 2D angle, this led to a couple unnecessary deaths because if you move the analog stick even slightly from center left, Mario runs into the wall. It made no sense whatsoever because that part was completely 2D in design. If they were going to have the camera represent it 2D, then the controls should have changed to left and right.,
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Offline EasyCure

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RE:Super Mario Galaxy
« Reply #1049 on: December 06, 2007, 06:53:14 AM »
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Originally posted by: Mr. Jack
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Originally posted by: IceCold
And like mantidor said, the camera is perfect. I have no idea how Mr Jack or GP have died several times because of it. I'm not even that good at many games normally, but the perspectives in Galaxy became second nature to me quickly, however warped they were. I guess everyone has a different experience.


I never had problems with the upside-down camera or any of that business associated with disorientation. I had problems with the camera zooming out unnecessarily far, turning while I was mid jump, turning while I am running to the other side of a building and not turning in time. Also to clarify something, it wasn't always a fact that I died in the traditional sense as a result of the camera, but failed a challenge due to the camera moving and the time had run out.

I understand all of this is a direct result of the automatic camera, and I also understand that it is impossible to make it perfect, but doesn't change the fact that it's annoying. Whenever the developer takes camera control out of the hands of the player in a 3D game you are bound to have camera issues, it is just a fact.

As GP has said, the 2D linearity in 3D platform games has been done to death (See Ratchet & Clank, Crash Bandicoot and others) and I don't consider it the ultimate 3D experience. Galaxy felt very small to me because it lacked the awesome exploration of Sunshine and SM64. Each level was so packed with stuff to do, it just made every level seem enormous and full of depth. Removing this structure from the game just really hurt it for me. This is why Sunshine is probably my favorite 3D Mario. It had a nice mix of both.

Another excellent point made, is the boring overworld. This is also a major trip up and I think it really effects the whole game. I know everyone really loves this game, I do too, but I can't overlook all of it's shortcomings.


but those arent Mario games, so their already below standards ;-)

February 07, 2003, 02:35:52 PM
EASYCURE: I remember thinking(don't ask me why) this was a blond haired, blue eyed, chiseled athlete. Like he looked like Seigfried before he became Nightmare.