Author Topic: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)  (Read 41239 times)

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Offline ejamer

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2013, 08:35:34 AM »
Late to the party, but glad to be playing along at all thanks to a small bonus at work and finding some Wii Point Cards on sale 50% off.  Yay for unexpected gaming opportunities.


Anyway, so far I've just started the game and have completed the first mission in the Shrine. Will probably wait for a few days to listen to the Retroactive session, and haven't gone into most of the spoiler content in this thread.


Surprised to hear people complain about the first boss (mini-boss?) there - the wizard guy who stands in an area with pillars of fire moving back and forth. Although a different challenge than was offered up to that point, it really wasn't that hard if you have some patience. Sure, you have to wait for an opportunity to score hits, and sometimes that relies on luck as much as skill due to the timing and random location. But with no time limit and a very clear safe zone available at the bottom of the screen it's not really "hard" to keep zipping in and out of the danger area and just wait until he reappears on the end of your sword.


A few general thoughts about the game so far:
  • Did anyone play Half-Minute Hero?  Am I the only one who was vaguely reminded of that (excellent) game by the small overworld and run-and-bump style of combat here?
  • Almost forgot how important it is to talk to lots of NPCs in old-school games like this. Newer RPGs are always so directed that you never need to walk around and investigate towns if you don't want to.
  • Grinding is easy. Just hand the controller to my 2-year old in the field and come back a while later. Bam! Auto-level up, with child labor for the win!  (Only halfway kidding.)
  • Nice to play a mindlessly light RPG like this right now, and the soundtrack is a nice surprise.  Looking forward to playing further in... although can totally understand how people who didn't grow up playing "classic" (ie: old) games wouldn't see many redeeming qualities in this title.
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Offline Rodrigue

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2013, 02:24:28 PM »
Book II's world is weird. At least the first game's made some sense. This one just throws it out of the window, so if you thought the scenario was crazy before you will be blown away at how little they cared.


There's a village connected to a field connected to ruins and a mine, that's like the first game, pretty normal. Then that mine is connected to a snow land so somehow the climate shifted from temperate to polar in a few meters. Even WORSE, right past that snow land is a fire cave. There is almost no transition between them. Then after that is another grassy village.


The plot is dumb too but I get lost just trying to summarize it.


How do people have cats in the Moat of Burnedbless?


The bosses in this game are a lot more fun though, I don't feel the same kind of power curve as in the first game and it almost always takes me a half dozen of attempts to beat a boss, so it's neither too easy nor too hard. Regular enemies are the same, in Book I I would level up and suddenly kill every enemy on the field in one hit. They are more durable here.


Passive healing is really slow though so that sucks.

Offline Crimm

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2013, 02:35:06 PM »
I actually mention HMH in the episode.
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Offline noname2200

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2013, 06:19:49 PM »


There's a village connected to a field connected to ruins and a mine, that's like the first game, pretty normal. Then that mine is connected to a snow land so somehow the climate shifted from temperate to polar in a few meters. Even WORSE, right past that snow land is a fire cave. There is almost no transition between them. Then after that is another grassy village.



You go from a village at the foot of the floating island, through some mines, exit at the higher elevations (hence the snow), enter into an active volcano, and come out at the other end of the floating island, which is also at a lower elevation than the snowy islands. It makes perfect (video game) sense!

The plot actually has lots of verismilitude, and it's actually quite elaborate (which becomes more apparent towards the end, when it ties to the events of I), but it definitely has several "er, what?" moments. While I appreciate that less can be more, especially in RPGs, their storytelling definitely had room for improvement.

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2013, 11:51:19 PM »
I didn't get around to playing Ys I before the original retroactive discussion, so I thought I'd start by  trying Ys II.  I like it so far, and I like how quickly-paced the combat is.  Since I tend to play these types of games fairly aggressively, I find it appealing.  Grinding for experience/gold isn't quite so much of a pain.

This isn't technically my first Ys game.  I vaguely remember renting Ys III for the SNES back in my childhood.  I remember enjoying it for the most part, but I didn't get to play it enough to really appreciate the game or understand what was going on.  It obviously marked a departure in gameplay style from Ys I & II.  I do wish it was available on Virtual Console because I'd like to try it again, though I do have The Oath In Felghana (the Ys III remake)  in my Steam backlog.

Some of the boss fights, wackier magic powers and the design of Adol Christin remind me just a little bit of one of my favorite NES games, Crystalis.  I know that Crystalis is most often compared to the original Legend of Zelda, but, while playing this, but I can see a lot of potential influences from this series as well. 


EDIT:  Eh, so I had written that last bit before I had heard the entire discussion on that subject during the most recent RFN.  Oops.

 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 10:02:42 AM by Sundoulos »
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2013, 01:08:59 AM »
I'm starting to make progress in Book II. I'd forgotten how each magic wand functions very differently -- it's not just a slight attack variation. In case anyone is wondering the purpose of the Light Magic, note that it slowly drains your MP while equipped (no need to press X). Another clue: it alleviates a complaint you probably had about the caves in both Books I&II up to that point.

One more useful tip for Book II: you can revisit the statues to review their information and refill your HP/MP. So, they are effectively way stations that let you keep adventuring without so many visits back to the village.
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Offline Rodrigue

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2013, 07:00:28 AM »
I'd forgotten how each magic wand functions very differently -- it's not just a slight attack variation. In case anyone is wondering the purpose of the Light Magic, note that it slowly drains your MP while equipped (no need to press X). Another clue: it alleviates a complaint you probably had about the caves in both Books I&II up to that point.
I don't understand why they didn't make light and alter toggle with a press of the button, it just forces people to switch as soon as they stop using it instead of when they actually need another magic.

I also feel like the fire magic is useless except when you are forced to use it like for bosses. I never use it on normal enemies.

Offline xcwarrior

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2013, 12:23:50 AM »
How much time do we have left? Had a baby (or wife did I should say) March 5 and I've been kind of limited on gaming time. Hope to get some in tomorrow finally.

Maybe have it posted in the original post?
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Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2013, 08:20:07 AM »
I kind of got bogged down again and can't seem to get motivated to come back to the game. I actually really enjoy the minute to minute gameplay of Y'S II, particularly the feeling of your character becoming stronger, but the area design is beginning to become super confusing and frustrating.
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Offline Rodrigue

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2013, 01:39:27 AM »
The Shrine is so confusing for no apparent reason. Really obnoxious running around trying to figure out how to get to the West or East of the entrance.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2013, 05:49:12 AM »
We record Thursday, so try to post your Ys Book II thoughts by then if you want to be on the show!
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Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2013, 09:33:28 AM »
@Rodrigue
 
Yup. Obnoxious, for me, pretty much sums up the level design (or lack there of). As was discussed on RFN last week Y's I (and I think this applies to Y's II also), does do some interesting things with perspective and layout, but at this point my exasperation with the labyrinthine design is outstripping my interest in it.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:44:42 PM by Pixelated Pixies »
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Offline ejamer

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2013, 10:51:41 AM »
I'm never going to reach Ys Book II before the recording date, but hopefully will start playing before listening to the podcast discussion.


What resource(s) are people using to help with their playthrough? I totally missed the harmonica and needed some guidance, and found this great walkthrough: [size=78%]http://www.vnotesonline.com/ys-book-i-ii[/size]


Pretty cool, and reminded me of the kind of notes I'd take as a kid when playing some of these obtuse games and getting utterly stuck. Ok, this is a lot more detailed and better looking.  But the idea is there.


Be warned that it does contain full maps and major spoilers though, so don't open the guide unless you are ready.
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Offline toshironikko

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2013, 09:11:08 AM »
Im a huge fan of Ys Books I and II - got the DS version the PSP version and VC version and the anime! True the level design can be very confusing at times especially areas like the shrine and those dark caves urgh but once you find where you need to go you feel like you really found something and not like it was handed to you. Anyone interested in watching a guide/play through of the game i recommend UnPlayedAThing. His videos is what got me into Ys to begin with =)

Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2013, 08:05:37 PM »
I had hoped to try and get back to this game today. Unfortunately for any hopes I had of finishing Y's II, I recently picked up a handful of great games. FTL is freaking amazing, Terraria is a great little time killer, and Thomas is Alone is a funny and pretty interesting platformer. The nail in the coffin for Y's, however, was the fact that Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon was delivered today. Also, Harmoknight is released tomorrow.
 
In other words, this will likely be the last thing I have to say about Y's.
 
Y's Book I & II is exactly why I love Retroactive so much. It's a really interesting game, both historically and on it's own terms.
 
Historically, Y's I & II is significant because it embodies a time when video games were still embryonic as far as genres went. When Y's was released, video game mechanics and the genres with which they became associated were not as solidified as they would later become. This is both what makes these two games so interesting and unique, but I suspect it is also what contributes to them being so confusing and at times frustrating.
 
On it's own terms though, I feel Y's I & II works. The primary feedback loop of 'kill enemies, level up, unlock upgrades, fight stronger enemies' really worked for me. Much like Faxanadu before it and Zelda II after it, Y's I & II are immensely satisfying.
 
With all that said, Y's I & II can also be pretty obtuse. No where was this more apparent to me than in the level design, which was without a doubt the biggest issue I had with both games. For each area which was comprehensible and fun to navigate there was one which was decidedly not.
 
For every Burnland (good)
 

 
There was a Mine (bad)
 

 
or a Solomon Shrine (also bad)
 

 
 
Y's I & II is a game that I feel better for having played, but not one which I necessarily always felt good about while playing. I certainly did have some fun, but towards what I suspect was the latter half of Y's II (I don't intend on finishing the game and therefore may never know) the convoluted and tortuous labyrinthine designs of the areas finally wore me down. Y's I & II are interesting games, perhaps even good ones, but they are also very flawed ones.
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Offline xcwarrior

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #90 on: March 28, 2013, 08:17:54 AM »
At the boss at the Mine Depth 3. Anyone have any suggestions? The FAQ I looked up said attack his head, but I can't lay a dent on him. I have the original sword, this may be my problem.

Also, I got the dako tree thing that allows me to talk to trees. I know this should let me get the silver sword, which might answer my first problem. But where is the 2nd tree that is not right near the entrance to the mines?
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Offline ejamer

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #91 on: March 28, 2013, 08:42:38 AM »
At the boss at the Mine Depth 3. Anyone have any suggestions? The FAQ I looked up said attack his head, but I can't lay a dent on him. I have the original sword, this may be my problem.

Upgrade your equipment and/or level up.  I'd try upgrading equipment first though.

Quote
Also, I got the dako tree thing that allows me to talk to trees. I know this should let me get the silver sword, which might answer my first problem. But where is the 2nd tree that is not right near the entrance to the mines?


Go south from that tree and look close to the bottom of the field.
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Offline Sundoulos

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #92 on: March 28, 2013, 08:43:33 AM »


There's a village connected to a field connected to ruins and a mine, that's like the first game, pretty normal. Then that mine is connected to a snow land so somehow the climate shifted from temperate to polar in a few meters. Even WORSE, right past that snow land is a fire cave. There is almost no transition between them. Then after that is another grassy village.



You go from a village at the foot of the floating island, through some mines, exit at the higher elevations (hence the snow), enter into an active volcano, and come out at the other end of the floating island, which is also at a lower elevation than the snowy islands. It makes perfect (video game) sense!

I don't know what it was like in the original/other versions of Ys II, but the I did laugh last night because the apparently later versions of the game (such as the copy I'm playing on Steam) are somewhat self-aware and actually makes fun of this fact.   Conversations with at least one of the monsters (while using the Alter staff) in Burnland.  One monster makes fun of the fact that it it freezes it's butt off on the mountain but hot as anything inside Burnland, and ends by saying, "How does that work?"  Unfortunately, I couldn't remember the exact quote.

Also, one of the conversations with the goddess' statue in Burnland even points out that the Priests intentionally shaped the environment to have the volcano next to the icelands in order to provide a defense against the demons.  Well...at least the game does try to explain it.  I'm surprised they bothered. :) 

In general, I enjoyed just wandering around talking to the demons using the alter power.  Some of the conversations with them are actually pretty funny, as they refer to Adol as a thief and murderer who is going around raiding the treasure chests.  One of two of the conversations actually make you feel sorry for some of them.  For example, one of the monsters mourns the loss of his daughter.  Some of the others warn you (in monster form), to watch your back because of the "red haired" guy is beating up all of their friends.
 

I have the same issues with the level design that most others have, but, honestly, I have to admit that it's not much different than other games of that era.  With games like Crystalis, and some of the Legend of Zelda games, Metroid (1 & 2), or a number of other games that were limited in terms of environmental landmarks or diversity in background, I usually used Nintendo Power (if it provided a map) or went about the business drawing a map myself.   I think I remember recalling disappointment the PS One era when Final Fantasy games started a trend towards having very simple dungeon designs; I no longer feel that way, by the way.

Even though Faxanadu, another Falcom game, was a side-scrolling adventure), I clearly remember having to draw up a map/table for remembering some of the doorways that connected various areas.  I think I had to do the same for Legacy of the Wizard, though I didn't come close to beating that one.

Unfortunately, I didn't get as far as I would have liked before the end of the discussion period for this retroactive.  I have enjoyed what I've played so far, and I'll probably attempt to at least finish Ys II up after it's over.  Eventually, I'll go back and play Ys I.   

One last question:  Does the gift-giving system in Ys II have a point?  I've given a few gifts to people, and I've gotten a little in the way useful information and one gift in return.  I was just wondering if there are any major items or secrets that are tied to it.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 09:03:12 AM by Sundoulos »
"A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers--including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower." - C.S. Lewis, in a preface to Milton's Paradise Lost

Offline toshironikko

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #93 on: March 28, 2013, 09:57:58 AM »
If i had to describe the difference between Book I from Book II i would say take I and just add a fireball that plows through everything.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #94 on: March 29, 2013, 10:18:19 AM »
In case you missed it on Facebook/Twitter, we have pushed back the Ys Book II segment until next week, because our dudes need more time to play after PAX East. So you also have more time to get in comments for the show!
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Offline pPatko

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #95 on: March 30, 2013, 08:47:56 PM »
Does anyone know if armour and shields act differently from each other?  Do they both just boost defense in the same way?  For example: do shields only protect from the front?

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2013, 12:07:53 PM »
I wondered the same thing, but combat is so simple, it's hard to imagine the system includes differential protection between armor and shield. Surely they just both boost the defense stat.

Did everyone else get the fireball upgrade in Book II? I was in Burnland when I noticed the fireball got bigger and now goes through enemies, sometimes knocking them back for multiple hits. I didn't get any message about this happening, and it doesn't seem tied to any items -- maybe just an experience level? Quite unexpected, and now I wonder if there will be more.
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Offline Rodrigue

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2013, 08:25:56 PM »
I can hold down the button to charge up a bigger fireball but I didn't get an upgrade for it or anything. The only thing that "upgrades" this magic is the hawk idol.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 09:17:11 PM by Rodrigue »

Offline Sundoulos

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #98 on: April 01, 2013, 02:19:46 AM »
I didn't even know that the fireball could be charged until it was mentioned on this thread.  I wish I had known about it sooner.  I haven't seen/experienced a fireball spell upgrade, either, other than the homing effect that the hawk idol has on the fireball spell, as Rodrigue mentioned.
"A creature revolting against a creator is revolting against the source of his own powers--including even his power to revolt...It is like the scent of a flower trying to destroy the flower." - C.S. Lewis, in a preface to Milton's Paradise Lost

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: RFN RetroActive #26: Ys Book I&II (Official Discussion)
« Reply #99 on: April 01, 2013, 08:41:38 AM »
Charging??? Homing effect???
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