Topic: Doom 3

[Flames_of_chaos]

a stonewall with vines told me doom 3 has subpar multiplayer. Well that might change when those crazy moders in the mod community unleash their crazy mods of doom.

[KDR_11k]

If you want inovative FPS gameplay, get a popular FPS and get some mods. Few FPSes are innovative out of the box (though you should try Deus Ex and maybe Tron 2.0), but modders who have zero financial risk and no suits telling them to make crap add real innovation. People complain that with games getting more complex the one-person dev teams are gone. Bull####. There are enough one-person dev teams producing awesome mods (since a lot of the assets don't need to be altered) and a mod doesn't need to replace everything. The best mod for Half-Life is Canned Tuna, which only alters the weapon behaviour while reusing graphics and everything.

[joeamis]

I read in an interview ID said they weren't putting alot into the multiplayer because they wanted the fans to do it, because they know modders can make some amazing things.  It's easy when all they have to do is switch up whats already been completed by the makers.  Unless ofcourse it is a graphical mod or very complex.

[KDR_11k]

Oh, most mods want to be TCs (i.e. replace everything, even if it makes no sense) just for the sake of being TCs. There are mods for Far Cry and do you know what the first thing they made was? New weapon models. MP5, SPAS12, etc, all of which were already in the base game. I bet when Half Life 2 comes out everybody will throw in their version ofthe MP5, etc. Only very few mods are smart enough to focus at making a fun addition to the base game instead of trying to woo everyone with their 100% replaced graphics. I think the problem is that many see mod work as a step ladder into the game industry instead of a hobby for fun.

[Flames_of_chaos]

Quote
I read in an interview ID said they weren't putting alot into the multiplayer because they wanted the fans to do it, because they know modders can make some amazing things. It's easy when all they have to do is switch up whats already been completed by the makers. Unless ofcourse it is a graphical mod or very complex.

Thats a crappy decision from Id because if I where to buy a PC shooter for 54.99 I'd expect it to have it good multiplayer out of the box BUT NOOO were going to have wait for better multiplayer via mods. Sorry if it sounds like a flame but its really disapointling especially for the 54.99 price tag plus other possible expenses for upgrading your PC.

[joeamis]

Well you gotta think about it this way, if ID spent even more time on the multiplayer the game could very well have sold for $60 instead.  Also the game would've came out a couple months later too.  They were very excited in the interview for letting the modders do the multiplayer game even more justice, they've liked getting people to do mods since Doom 1.  And the multiplayer they did make themselves for Doom 3 atleast meets conventional standards as far as game types.  Atleast this way, with not spending another 2-3 months doing more multiplayer types, they can start on their next games earlier too.

[KDR_11k]

It sold for 55 because of the name. Enter The Matrix cost 55 on PC here, Doom 3 only 47 (both Euros, normal price for PC and GBA games is 40-45).
Also, Doom 3 is like Half-Life, a singleplayer experience with a rather neglected multiplayer (OOTB HL MP stinks), though I'd say except for the bandwidth usage D3 is pretty good in MP (except for the buggy server browser). They could have pulled an Unreal II, but they didn't. I guess after Quake 3 being pretty much an MP-only game they rather wanted to make an SP game this time round.

[manunited4eva22]

YES! Now they will have it out in 2007 instead of 2008!

[KDR_11k]

WTF are you talking about?

[manunited4eva22]

Joe saying they would start development sooner by 3-4 months by skipping MP.  Quake3 was released January 2000.  We only have to wait 4 years for their next game.  A month or two is nothing for id.

[joeamis]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
It sold for 55 because of the name.

It costs alot of money to make very good game engines, and games with visuals of that caliber.  I wouldn't say it's just because of the name, especially for how long the title was in development.  ID has always pushed the barrier with technology.

I didn't say they skipped MP, they just did less.  And ID has always been a company about letting the user get in and mod the game more so than most companies.  They did it first with Doom 1 and have always been excited about giving the user more input into the games beyond just playing it.  And Quake 3 was released in December of 1999.  Between Quake 3 and Doom 3, ID has released other games...  on consoles.  And when you have to wait years for their PC releases I'm glad when another 3 months isn't tacked on.

[KDR_11k]

Games don't cost more or less because of quality or cost, they cost more because the game is hyped up enough that people wil buy it even at an increased price. Remember how hyped Enter The Matrix was? Doom 3 was treated as one of the three saviours of PC gaming adna s such they knew the fans would buy it, 55 or not.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Games don't cost more or less because of quality or cost, they cost more because the game is hyped up enough that people wil buy it even at an increased price. Remember how hyped Enter The Matrix was? Doom 3 was treated as one of the three saviours of PC gaming adna s such they knew the fans would buy it, 55 or not.

Enter the Matrix sold in the US for $49.99.  Games don't cost more or less because of quality or cost??!  Tell that to developers and publishers.  That logic would mean budget games don't exist.  ID, especially John Carmack has always pushed technology in their games.  It took alot of money to make Doom 3 look as good as it does, and it was in development for a long time.  Pushing the technological envelope and long development times cost more money.  I'm not saying the name had nothing to do with the cost, but if the game cost less to develop it could've very well sold for $45.

[KDR_11k]

Budget games. Okay, but those are usually budgeted because the publisher doesn't expect them to sell at full price and hopes a lower price helps. Price depends on customer demand first and foremost. If videogame costs were really related to the cost of development, you wouldn't see entire shelves of uniformely priced games. Besides, most of that dev money iD spent will be made back with engine liceses (their main business).

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Budget games. Okay, but those are usually budgeted because the publisher doesn't expect them to sell at full price and hopes a lower price helps. Price depends on customer demand first and foremost. If videogame costs were really related to the cost of development, you wouldn't see entire shelves of uniformely priced games. Besides, most of that dev money iD spent will be made back with engine liceses (their main business).

Budget games are sold at a low price for more reasons than that.  And almost always the reason the publisher doesn't expect them to sell at full price is because the games were made on a low budget.  Budget games are usually those with low budgets and short development time (less cost).  Price does not depend on customer demand first and foremost, if that was the case then games would all be different prices reflecting the demand for each.  Another reason games are uniformly priced is because it's an established standard.  They've shown pie charts before as to where the money goes for each game sold.

[KDR_11k]

A game made on low budget runs on a low budget because someone obviously decided the game wasn't worth a full budget because it wouldn't sell anyway, right?

[joeamis]

sometimes.  But there's lots of reasons for budget games.  Sometimes a company already has other games in development with bigger budgets and thus can't make another big budget game, but would really like to release a game before the larger game in development for a year to multiple years releases.  Other times a company simply can't afford to make non budget games, and thus all they make is budget games.  Other times a company has to cut back on a title that originally had a large budget and thus make it as a budget game.  And then there's times where a company releases a game at a budget price to attempt to garner more market share in that genre (ESPN Sports).  There are alot more reasons as well, I won't bother keep typing all of them.

[manunited4eva22]

Yes your right, ID did produce Quake 3 Arena for DC, that obviously constituted a lot of effort.  Also allowing another company to produce RTCW obviously, took a lot of effort.

Saying they allow the modders to build the mp for them is a lame excuse for saying, we are too lazy, do it for us.


Doom 3 will make more on the engine being leased out to other companies than it will on the game profits itself.  The arguement that 'they have to make money somehow' is pretty pointless.  

[KDR_11k]

Well, how "good" was the Half-Life MP OOTB?

[manunited4eva22]

It sucked, but Valve has since then taken a lot of effort into making the MP a big focus.

[joeamis]

Quote
Originally posted by: manunited4eva22
Yes your right, ID did produce Quake 3 Arena for DC, that obviously constituted a lot of effort.  Also allowing another company to produce RTCW obviously, took a lot of effort.

Saying they allow the modders to build the mp for them is a lame excuse for saying, we are too lazy, do it for us.

Doom 3 will make more on the engine being leased out to other companies than it will on the game profits itself.  The arguement that 'they have to make money somehow' is pretty pointless.

They've done more between Quake 3 and Doom 3 than you're implying.  After Quake 3, they did an expansion pack: Team Arena that took a year to come out.  They also did Wolfenstein 3d for gba, been co-developing spvquake, and have also been co-developing Quake 4.  

And your argument about them making money on the engine only strengthens the fact that they've been busy and working hard.  They make amazing game engines, quite adaptable ones, and with Doom 3's it's clear that it took alot of time to produce.  You saying that theres an argument about "having to make money somehow" is stretching things quite a bit.  I already acknowledged that the name had something to do with the price, but given the work that went into making the game... is also a substantial reason.  If they didn't make the engine so advanced and the graphics, they could've done it cheaper and made the same profit at a $45 dollar pricepoint...  

They're not simply lazy when they say let the modders do the mp.  For one, they did mp for Doom 3, and results from players have said that instead of just 4 players, there have been upto 16 player matches from modders already, so it's clear that the game can handle it and appears Id went with 4 to maintain the tradition of Doom.  Also Id clearly focused on creating Doom 3 as a single player game, and the mere fact that they included mp at all is icing on the cake.  And if you've seen or read interviews with Id about it, you would see how much they want the modders to have the ultimate say this time around, I find it hard to believe that you can't just believe that especially since Doom 1 was really the first time a company actively encouraged lots of modding.

[KDR_11k]

They limited MP to four players because four players already lags like hell online. I heard that consumer grade computers cannot even handle serving a 16 player game.

manunited: Well, how long did it take for those changes to happen?

[manunited4eva22]

It took CS for that to happen.  Ever since then, valve has been the one to beat in MP making (yes CS was a mod, but valve has built the community far more than any mod)

I find it hard to believe that you can really swallow: ITS A TRADITION! ITS OUR JOB TO MAKE SURE WE MAKE NO MULTIPLAYER! THATS YOUR JOB!  

Oh I forgot about Team Arena and a port of wolfenstein 3d to gba! Wow, How could I ever doubt that they were not spending 100% of their time on those games.  Quake 4?  Quake 4 dev has barely begun.  Carmack himself said he has barely started on  it.

[joeamis]

Well obviously you don't know much about Id, their history, and interviews if you think that didn't make a big mp because "they were lazy".  And you keep saying they made NO multiplayer, they did make mp, just not a full fledged mp.  And their plan all the way through was to make a single player game.  Their last game was primarily multi player.  And this time they wanted to do primarily single player.  

I'm not saying they spent 100% of their time on those games, I'm stating they did more than nothing else between Quake 3 and Doom 3 which you had implied.  Quake 4 is also being designed using the Doom 3 engine, so they made the engine with that in mind either in the beginning or at some point in it's development.

[Flames_of_chaos]

I hope Quake 4 wont be a similar Flashlight FPS since that was kind of lame even if it caused the ambiance of the game.  For some weirdening reason I always found Quake more fun than Doom.  It would be interesting and cool if ID brought back the Heretic series.