Author Topic: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live  (Read 16999 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2004, 10:09:31 PM »
Well, the appropriateness of a price depends on the competition. If games were regularly sold for 20, a game for 40 would be overpriced. If online matchmaking is generally providedfor free, 20 a year is overpriced.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2004, 02:04:35 PM »
But Xbox Live has alot more features, including a community that you can be in no matter what game you're using, instead of being restricted to just a single games players community.  To compare it to PS2 and say it's overpriced because it's $20 a year is ridiculous.  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2004, 09:31:04 PM »
I'd probably compare it to Gamespy or The All-Seeing Eye. The Eye costs 15 a year or 30 one-off. That's still cheaper than XBox Live.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2004, 03:20:19 PM »
Then it's still overpriced in your opinion isn't?  Only 5 dollars cheaper for a year?  And the quality doesn't match XBLive...  
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #54 on: August 27, 2004, 12:26:28 AM »
What's the starter pack for XBL cost?
Ande who needs those XBL features, anyway? Most people play only one or two games online, few need things like communities or buddy lists (me for example, I have no friend that plays games online). But I don't see a free XBL package that lacks all of those extra features. So you're paying for lots of stuff you don't want just because this is the only way to get the one thing you want.
So I stand by my original assertion that XBL costs money whereas competing services don't.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #55 on: August 27, 2004, 04:25:48 PM »
It really sounds like you're just stating all the in your own personal case.  Most people do want buddy lists and a community, among all the other stuff.  I've made friends on most of the games I've played online, but unfortunately most of the games lacked buddylists and community aspects.  That's why I go back to playing Starcraft online more often because I can meet up with old friends again.  Most people want more features, no matter what the case is for a game, not lesser features.  It would be silly for Microsoft to go out of it's way to eliminate features that they made for the majority who enjoy them, just to cater to a small minority who don't want more features.  That would cost them more money...  So now you don't stand by your comment about The All Seeing Eye costing 5 dollars less a year?  Another thing is why would Sony suddenly change their stance on online gaming and be working hard to introduce the same features that XboxLive already has?  I guess that also points to the fact that the majority of online gamers do want more features.
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Offline Deguello

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #56 on: August 27, 2004, 11:58:20 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: joeamis
It would be silly for Microsoft to go out of it's way to eliminate features that they made for the majority who enjoy them, just to cater to a small minority who don't want more features.  That would cost them more money...  


But they already cater to a minority.  Broadband users with lots of money.  and instead of offering a no frills version of Live for free to BB users who don't have lots of money or SHOCK HORROR just don't want to pay for a game twice and possibly 56k users (the majority is here), they just say "pay up" to the BBers and just exclude the 56kers altogether.

Don't act like MS wants the most users on Live and is just listening to the majority.  If they wanted that, they would have tried to include the 56kers in any way possible.
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Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2004, 12:45:24 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Deguello
Quote

Originally posted by: joeamis


But they already cater to a minority.  Broadband users with lots of money.  and instead of offering a no frills version of Live for free to BB users who don't have lots of money or SHOCK HORROR just don't want to pay for a game twice and possibly 56k users (the majority is here), they just say "pay up" to the BBers and just exclude the 56kers altogether.

Don't act like MS wants the most users on Live and is just listening to the majority.  If they wanted that, they would have tried to include the 56kers in any way possible.


The thing is, Xbox games have more content and detail, and having a game with more in it means you're going to need a fast connection for it to run smoothly.  Another thing is that 56k is on the way out.  Another thing is that you can have alot more online features with BB than you can with 56k, like more players on servers, voice chat, etc etc...  Microsoft didn't say we're creating substandard online for the majority of gamers, they said we're creating the best online games possible.  Haven't you noticed that the majority of PS2 games online now are only BB as well?  I don't act like MS is just listening to the majority, I simply stated that the majority of gamers want more features in games than those who want less features in games.  It's not about an availability thing, it's for the people who have it available...  they would want more features not less.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2004, 11:06:50 PM »
More detail != more bandwidth. The broadband thing only helps with one thing: Less efficient netcode. If enough bandwidth is there the netcode can be written sloppier without having to fear that anyone's going to notice. That way the quality of service is higher since MS's licensees will still deliver sub par code but at least the broadband can compensate for that. Also it makes people have more consistent pings (well, somewhat more consistent, connecting to overseas will still cause lots of lag) and you won't meet someone with a ping vastly higher or lower than your own. Kinda like making a city seem richer by locking away the poor.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2004, 10:37:13 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
More detail != more bandwidth. The broadband thing only helps with one thing: Less efficient netcode. If enough bandwidth is there the netcode can be written sloppier without having to fear that anyone's going to notice. That way the quality of service is higher since MS's licensees will still deliver sub par code but at least the broadband can compensate for that. Also it makes people have more consistent pings (well, somewhat more consistent, connecting to overseas will still cause lots of lag) and you won't meet someone with a ping vastly higher or lower than your own. Kinda like making a city seem richer by locking away the poor.


lol please...  Ofcourse that's the case...  Broadband is only there to help with inefficient netcode...  Theres no reason that BB is used for anything else... lol......  It's the same situation on PS2 and PCs isn't it...  Hell if there was sufficient netcode 56k would be as fast as BB for anything!  okaaaaay And ofcourse yes MS is the one's who actively keep the "poor" out of their online service...  Oh wait a second just about every PS2 online game is BB now too, hmmm not to mention PC games either...
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Offline Deguello

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #60 on: September 18, 2004, 03:14:05 AM »
Thought I'd add some insight on the supposed "success" of Online for consoles, Live! in particular.

I'm gonna be generous and actually treat the Xbox figures as if they indicate 1 million unique users, and assume the 1.4-1.7 million Ps2 Modems and stuff are actually unique online users.

That amounts to about 3 million rounded UP.  Deg is feeling very generous today.

Would you say the Sega CD was a failure?  I say it's a failure.  It is generally perceived as being a failure.

The Sega CD sold 6-7 million units and tied to 25% of it's user base.

Until Sony or MS reach that level of FAILURE, I laugh at any "success" story of Online games on consoles.
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Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #61 on: September 18, 2004, 05:31:21 PM »
I don't think comparing new consoles/ significant add ons is practical to comparing the use of online gamers.  Another thing is that you need extra things to play online, whereas with Sega CD you did not (other than a Genesis).  For argument purposes here:

Requirements:

Sega CD
1) Genesis

Xbox Online
1)Xbox
2)Broadband service
3)Xbox Live service

PS2 Online
1)PS2
2)Network Adapter
3)Broadband service (unless you go out and buy a Network Adapter to enjoy a handful of games online with your 56k)

Add in the fact that people buying a Sega CD were all in a hoot about owning a new console, that drives purchases alone.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #62 on: September 18, 2004, 08:37:55 PM »
Yes, but why was the SEGA CD considered a failure and XBLive a success? Why do many consider the GC a failure and the XBox a success? Double standards.

Offline Mario

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2004, 09:24:09 PM »
Mindshare > Marketshare

- I hear PS2 and Xbox can go online and GCN cant!
- NO WAY? SONY AND MICROSOFT DO WHAT NINTENDONT
- Lets all buy an Xbox so we can play offline!

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #64 on: September 20, 2004, 02:19:48 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Yes, but why was the SEGA CD considered a failure and XBLive a success? Why do many consider the GC a failure and the XBox a success? Double standards.


Why is Sega CD considered a failure?  Look at the games, there were barely any, and the majority were crap fmv titles.  Although the system itself sold, the games did not.  There are barely any Sega CD games worth owning let alone playing.  Not to mention that the Sega CD died very early in it's life cycle, with the 32x and Saturn following right after it (from it's own company) and ofcourse the PS1 right after those.  But, most important, it's not how many systems you sell, it's how many games you sell that make something a success or a failure in this business.

Xbox Live is considered a success because it's a major selling point for the system.  It's also tredding unchartered terroritory for consoles (bb only, universal online community, etc).  But perhaps the most significant sign is that tons of Xbox titles include some type of Live support, something the GC connectivity is considered not a success because of the lack of titles that incorporate it.  

I don't see everyone saying the Xbox is a success and the GC is a failure.  But if someone did, there are things that back that up a bit.  The GC is Nintendo's fourth main home console, and it will be lucky to equal the amount of sales of the N64, realistically that won't happen though.  So once again, it's part of a downward spiral in sales for Nintendo's home consoles.  While the Xbox is the first system ever (home or portable) for MS in the videogame business.  And it is neck and neck with the GC.  That's pretty good for a companies first system.  (you can argue all you want about how it's lost MS money, but they said that before they even released the system, that was there strategy for next gen dominance)  But the bigger & more significant thing, is as I stated for Sega CD, the amount of games.  Xbox gets great third party support while GC does not.  I don't see a double standard anywhere.
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Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2004, 05:36:29 PM »
I've been starkly against playing games online (other than PSO which I've been drawn back into) but after playing at a friends house and seeing that its not all evil people swearing and rapping (just 99%) and its good to have friendly competition whenever I can't go to my one friends house to play games.  Being in a new area and not being a nice person, I don't have many friends here, so the computer AI is my only competition.  As soon as street fighter comes out on xbox I'll shell out the 50 bucks and get xbox live.  Its a sad day in my video game life.
As far as what is a success and what isn't.  Gamecube started out as a huge success and is still the third best selling system this generation behind ps2 and gba.  As far as finances go, nintendo is the most profitable video game company in the world.  Nintendo doesn't beleive in losing money plain and simple. THAT and that alone is the only reason gamecube isn't online.  They just don't have the funds for it, they'd be bankrupt in a few years.  The xbox is no where close to turning a profit, but microsoft doesn't care.  As long as people are buying computers (and they are) Microsoft is making money.  The xbox is an amazing piece of hardware and unless you are stark on hating everything non nintendo you would see that.  Developers have been quoted saying that it is the easiest of the three to develop for.  When it comes to success in software, nintendo is teh doom3d.  That's all there is too it.  Sure there are more nintendo games I want than there are for xbox coming this christmas, but that's only because I'm most comforatable with the cube.  I only buy multiplatform titles for gamecube.  It saddens me to see soo many games coming out on xbox and not gamecube, and not just mediocre titles or bargain basement crap.  Its the big name third party titles that xbox is getting and cube is not thats trubling me.  I'm a hardcore fighting game fan and xbox is the place to go.  Marvel vs Capcom 2, SVS Chaos, Guilty Gear 2, Street Fighter anniversary collection, Capcom Fighting Jam, All games I love and will be on xbox, and not come close to gamecube.  There's no doubt that xbox is getting the games that cube is not, and nintendo should do some serious ass kissing come revolution time or a lot of games will be sailing on over to xbox2.  I know nintendo can't give out the money, but they can lower development fees and be a lot more friendly to third parties.  They need to realize that they are not number one and developers no longer feel privoledged to develop for them, in fact some are now seeing it as almost a burdon.  That's not good for business.  I'm not going to pretend that I know everything about the industry, but I do know that I love nintendo and will be depressed if they don't do something to bring them out of their slump.  They have one more chance and only one more chance, If revolution goes the way of the gamecube you can call it all but over for nintendo in the console market.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2004, 09:27:53 PM »
Look at history. Every manufacturer had his prime within their first two systems, losing popularity after that. Saying Microsoft isn't doing too badly because this is their first gen is like saying "He isn't a bad atlethe, he's just 24". If the Xenon doesn't take first place I'll consider Microsoft's endeavour as failed.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #67 on: September 21, 2004, 07:39:33 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Look at history. Every manufacturer had his prime within their first two systems, losing popularity after that. Saying Microsoft isn't doing too badly because this is their first gen is like saying "He isn't a bad atlethe, he's just 24". If the Xenon doesn't take first place I'll consider Microsoft's endeavour as failed.


and you would use that same logic for Master System to Genesis?  Snes outsold Genesis.  Yet was Genesis a failure?

A company doesn't need to "take first place" for their 2nd system to not equal failure.  If that was the case, the Cube would be Nintendo's 2nd Home Console Failure.  

Reiterate a point from last post: The XB (1st system) is neck and neck with the GC (4th home system + popular franchise games + previous fans of for 20 years).  By the end of this generation, the XB will have probably outsold the GC in overall hardware sales (especially when it's price is down to GC's), and their tie in ratio is higher, and they will have alot more games their last years than the GC (equaling an even higher tie in ratio).  And the 3rd party games sell on XB.  

In the end, the XB will have sold more games for 3rd parties than GC (equaling more 3rd party for them nex gen than for Ninty) and it will have amassed more consumers loyal to MS systems than the GC has this gen.  When it's all added up, it comes down to this: MS accomplished their goal from the start, which was to get their foot in the industry and make profits with XB 2.  I'll stop now because I'm beginning to sound like I like MS.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #68 on: September 21, 2004, 10:39:15 PM »
The Cube follows the decline curve. Atari had success with their first console, the 5200 and 7800 pretty much failed. Sega had moderate success with the SMS and their prime with the Genesis, after that every new system they released sold less than the previous. Nintendo had a nice success with the NES and their prime with the SNES, the N64 and the Cube sold less and less. Sony had a good success with the PS1, an even bigger success with the PS2 and analysts believe (well, widely agree) that the PS3 is going to be less popular than the PS2. Atari, Nintendo and Sega all followed this curve. Sure, there's no gurantee that the curve applies everywhere, but if I had to bet money, I'd bet against Sony, too. Microsoft will hit their prime next gen, if this curve is correct. Unfortunately, MS is planning to make a profit only with their third console.  Might be something about coolness coming and going (you just cannot be cool for that long, coolness is a status symbol and it no longer works as such when everybody has it). Perhaps we're going to see a newcomer take the market next gen, or the one after that.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2004, 06:35:31 PM »
Didn't the Atari 2600 come before the 5200?  I own a 5200 and a 7800, but not a 2600, and I'm almost 100% positive 2600 came before.  It would make sense too 2600x2=5200, 2600x3=7800.  I thought the 2600 was their most successful console too.  And the SNES may be considered Nintendo's prime as far as the quality of the games, but the NES was their prime in terms of hardware and software sales.  

I haven't heard that analysts predict PS3 will be less popular than PS2, but even if that was the case the PS3 could sell half as many systems as PS2 and still easily come out #1 vs the other consoles.  

Another thing that should be brought up is really the key factor that's been ignored in this discussion.  Sure Atari, Nintendo, and Sega had declining sales significantly with their 3rd console they each released, BUT all three companies made horrible mistakes with their 3rd consoles.  Atari release the 7800 after the NES launched, with software that couldn't compete, among other mistakes they made.  Nintendo missed the mark with using cartridges and alienating 3rd parties with the N64.  And Sega alienated fans with the Sega CD and it's crap games, followed right after it came out by the 32x which did the same exact thing, followed right after by the Saturn which was rushed to market and had insufficient hardware to compete with N64 and PS1.  They all made huge mistakes, to have a huge hit in their console sales.  So going by historical precedence Sony would have to do the same...  

A little off topic here: I think that MS has a great chance of having the best launch next gen (I don't know how much it will help them in the long run).  They already have development kits in the hands of key developers (more games at launch, and longer development time for those games too= better results).  Also MS (according to industry insiders) is changing it's attitude about how to do business with XB2, they're going to not market it's technical prowess and instead market the games.  Another possible ace up their sleeve according to GI, is that Perfect Dark Zero will be a launch title and Halo 3 will be releasing the same day PS3 launches.  Anyways, I mention the last paragraph as perhaps for the first time a company will take over as the market leader without their competitors making big mistakes that made that possible.  Only time will tell.
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Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2004, 06:42:02 PM »
Until Xbox live starts tunring a profit these guys won't break even.  Xbox live is sucking money out of M$ all the time, the new console will cost a lot of $$$ to push out.  I don't think microsoft will start turning a profit, or even get in the black until their third console.  
That being said its still sony's title to lose and if anyone is set to dethrone them its microsoft.  The only hitch in the system is nintendo.  If nintendo decides to come all bat outa hell like and take an offensive stand in the market, and stop with the constant defense of what they do then they could possible black horse their way to the top. But again with Xbox live becoming more and more popular by the day they have a selling point that could very well be the difference.

Offline joeamis

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RE:1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2004, 07:32:03 PM »
I forgot another significant thing I should've said in my last post, MS has an advantage of only having to support 1 system next generation.  While Sony and Nintendo are going all out and trying to hold the portable market with new systems and loads of new games for them, there is MS already well into development with new games for XB2 from many developers.  The next gen is going to be very exciting.  Sony has just as much work to do as Nintendo to keep at #1 than Nintendo does to achieve #1.  So many things could happen, we could have all 3 home consoles neck to neck with PS2 users moving to XB2, or XB2 could become the market leader early with a head start on release.  Sony could grab the portable market and lose it's console stranglehold, or DS and PSP could be neck and neck.  The possibilities are just so exciting.  Whatever the case the next console race could be the closest one ever.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2004, 10:23:00 PM »
joe: Sorry, ambiguous phrasing. I meant their first console (the 2600) was successful while the 5200 and the 7800 failed.
If Sony lost half of their customers that would still make them #1, yes, but those customers would go elsewhere and kill their absolute majority.
Sony's mistake could be alienating third parties, too. ow did Nintendo turn them off? They enforced strict rules on who may and who may not publish on their systems, Sony is now doig the same and I have a feeling most third parties would rather see MS "We give ya money hats, come here!" on top. MS is the only one of the big three that doesn't have a history of ironfist rule yet (well, when it comes to games, at least). As far as predicions go, MS has a serious chance against Sony. A good Rev launch should put Nintendo back into the ring and make for a really interesting fight. After all, the Rev is going to be different, it has the chance of doing the same as the DS.

Hm, the Box is eating a billion a year, right (and MS is already complaining about missiong a billion a year since 2001 and cut employee benefits to compensate)? Imagine what if the thing had five to ten times the sales, MS would lose between 5-10 billion dollars a year, that'd be a disaster not even their OS and Office divisions could compensate for. Well, okay, they've learned their lesson, the Xenon won't be as bad in losing money, but they stated they're in for the long run when asked about the profitability of the Xenon.

Nintendo could make a comeback if the Rev is perceived as coming more after the DS than the Cube. If they're doing the same all-out style launch for the Rev they're going to get a boost next gen, let's just hope they don't give up the Rev like they did the Cube.

Offline MaleficentOgre

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2004, 04:29:48 AM »
I think sony's big problem next generationis their new emphasis on technology, and being the sole owner of their technology.  The PSP won't be so great for third parties after sony's come develop money stops flowing.  The fact that they're making developers send their stuff to them in order to make disc for PSP is going to hurt, and I have a feeling that it might happen again with PS3's technology.

Offline couchmonkey

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RE: 1 Million People Are Using Xbox Live
« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2004, 07:27:52 AM »
I don't think Nintendo has given up on the Cube.  Really, this Christmas is arguably Nintendo's strongest from a first-party game perspective, and next year looks fairly promising too.  I do think Nintendo could be working harder to change perceptions about the Cube and bring third parties back, but I think that the company itself is still supporting the GameCube quite well.

As for the actual topic of the thread, I think online gaming is becoming more important every year, and unless Nintendo comes up with a serious online strategy it will lose...or fail to gain...marketshare in North America.
That's my opinion, not yours.
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