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Offline Ian Sane

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Theory about third party support
« on: July 29, 2008, 06:02:42 PM »
This theory was inspired by the most recent mailbag as the last part talked about the Wii's third party support.  I think the third party support absolutely sucks and that's a pretty common opinion.  It all seems so strange because the Wii is the clear market leader.  That's supposed to be how it works isn't it?  Atari, NES, SNES, PS1, PS2 - the market leader gets the most games.  The Wii is the exception and it seems very strange that third parties would not want to support it when it has the largest userbase to potentially sell to.

I suspect the reason is because Nintendo's attitude regarding the Wii clashes with that of the best developers.  Videogames becoming more complex over time was a natural end result.  It makes sense because creative people make videogames and creative people always want to move forward.  Now obviously there are dev teams that make nothing but junk but the best developers, the ones that influence the entire industry, want to push the envelope.  You can see the pride of the devs shine though in the greatest games.  Not all of this is in a good way but it's very much a "bigger is better" attitude.  Better graphics, bigger levels, more levels, more characters, more items, more moves, more options.  With the best devs you can often see the "wouldn't it be cool if we did this" effect.  There's this desire to top their previous game and top competing games.

The Wii is totally the opposite of this.  It's about intentional restraint.  It's about intentionally simplifying a game for a mainstream audience.  The console itself has glorified last gen specs.  How does one push the envelope with the Wii unless their idea very specifically requires the remote?  The "bigger is better" mantra doesn't apply.  So I think it's no surprise that we don't get the "real" third party projects and instead get thrown together spin-offs and last gen games - the sort of stuff the publishers will assign the rookie devs.  Meanwhile the big talent isn't interested.

You can argue that this attitude of more, more, MORE and going bigger each time isn't good for business.  But it is what a creative dev wants to do.  And that makes sense.  Remember that videogame developers are not non-gamers.  How could they be?  They're like the hardest of the hardcore for they make their OWN games.  So why would they be all ga ga over Nintendo's blue ocean stuff?  Businessmen and stockholders sure but why would someone who wants to make the greatest game ever care?  The Wii is a very blatantly corporate console so we're getting corporate games.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2008, 06:50:58 PM »
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So why would they be all ga ga over Nintendo's blue ocean stuff?  Businessmen and stockholders sure but why would someone who wants to make the greatest game ever care?  The Wii is a very blatantly corporate console so we're getting corporate games.

Because Michelangelo still had to eat?  Because Leonardo daVinci's work survived the Renaissance due to his patron?

WARNING!  WARNING!  THE FOLLOWING YOU ARE ABOUT TO READ MAY CAUSE SUDDEN HEAD EXPLOSIONS AMONG THOSE WITH A "CORPORATE SELL-OUT" ATTITUDE.  THOSE WITH PRETENTIOUS MINDS PLEASE AVERT YOUR EYES.

Shakespeare's work was originally derided as awful plays geared towards "morons."
The Beatles never got popular with anybody until teenage girls swooned over them.
The only surviving Renaissance artists were those financially backed by patrons.
Outside of Star Wars, the movies most-revered are those with much lower budgets and very little in the way of special effects, intended for non-movie-goers.  Most of these movies received support from corporate Hollywood studios.
Your favorite game was a result of a company investing corporate funds to a team and then selling that game for a profit.
Your favorite movie is the same way.
Your favorite television show still pauses for commercial.
Your favorite band is signed to a record label.

THE PRECEDING WAS ONLY A TEST.  IF THIS HAD BEEN A REAL PRETENTIOUS MIND ALERT, ARTISTIC VISION CONTROL OFFICERS WOULD BE DISPATCHED TO ELIMINATE THESE CORPORATE ATROCITIES.  AND MAYBE BREAK A FEW BACH AND MOZART CDS, TOO.  RICH WANKERS.

The real artists work with whatever limitations are there and try to reach the largest audience they can.  Such as the Renaissance Masters, who were limited with paint on canvas.  The most revered SNES games came after the system's graphical peak with Starfox, such as Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Yoshi's Island, and DKC2.

And this laugh-out-loud idea of "corporate console."  Seriously, there have been so many corporate games on other consoles it was actually starting to make me sick.  Like MGS4's surprise cacophony of ridiculous product placement.  So much for "artistic vision."  Sell-outs.  Oh and let's not forget the biggest case of product placement ever.  Gran Turismo.

Please do not go with this argument, Ian.  YOU WILL LOSE IT.  I guarantee it.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 06:55:42 PM by Deguello »
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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 07:14:06 PM »
Quote
This theory was inspired by the most recent mailbag as the last part talked about the Wii's third party support.  I think the third party support absolutely sucks and that's a pretty common opinion.  It all seems so strange because the Wii is the clear market leader.  That's supposed to be how it works isn't it?  Atari, NES, SNES, PS1, PS2 - the market leader gets the most games.  The Wii is the exception and it seems very strange that third parties would not want to support it when it has the largest userbase to potentially sell to.

Actually I think Wii's third party support is awesome, Wii is getting some of the most unique games this generation, Hudson became a publisher again and are primary supporting the Wii and DS, Aksys which imports all games from Arc Systems are publishing a lot of Wii, SNK and Atlus seem to be a strong Wii publisher for your niche and old school needs. Sure they may not be super impressive technically but the games are awesome. And Wii is getting more support from traditional publishers that barely published anything on the Gamecube. Just wait fall 2008 - 2009 should be an amazing time for 3rd parties on Wii.

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I suspect the reason is because Nintendo's attitude regarding the Wii clashes with that of the best developers.  Videogames becoming more complex over time was a natural end result.  It makes sense because creative people make videogames and creative people always want to move forward.  Now obviously there are dev teams that make nothing but junk but the best developers, the ones that influence the entire industry, want to push the envelope.  You can see the pride of the devs shine though in the greatest games.  Not all of this is in a good way but it's very much a "bigger is better" attitude.  Better graphics, bigger levels, more levels, more characters, more items, more moves, more options.  With the best devs you can often see the "wouldn't it be cool if we did this" effect.  There's this desire to top their previous game and top competing games.

I'd like to start this reply by stating that more MHz =/= better games, a game can have the shittiest graphics ever but the best game play experience in the world.  Western developers probably more accustomed to a cyclical evolution of just more processor power. Wii is pushing the envelope in interface and bringing in the most complex controller in the home console biz, like you saw at E3 the wii remote can essentially evolve and become better and better just by a simple cheap attachment instead of Nintendo forcing us to buy a whole new set of controllers. But just give the game to a really good team in the company and just look what can happen. A lot of games on 360 and PS3 suck and most of the time for the same reason why an average Wii game sucks.

Quote
The Wii is totally the opposite of this.  It's about intentional restraint.  It's about intentionally simplifying a game for a mainstream audience.  The console itself has glorified last gen specs.  How does one push the envelope with the Wii unless their idea very specifically requires the remote?  The "bigger is better" mantra doesn't apply.  So I think it's no surprise that we don't get the "real" third party projects and instead get thrown together spin-offs and last gen games - the sort of stuff the publishers will assign the rookie devs.  Meanwhile the big talent isn't interested.

I think Nintendo is trying to restrain themselves on the games front because I really think they want to give 3rd parties a shot, good games take good time in order to make they don't just pop up overtime. While there are a lot of "spin offs" and mini-game compilations the same can be said about the glut of FPS and generic games on 360 and PS3 every system has their fair share of bad games.

Quote

You can argue that this attitude of more, more, MORE and going bigger each time isn't good for business.  But it is what a creative dev wants to do.  And that makes sense.  Remember that videogame developers are not non-gamers.  How could they be?  They're like the hardest of the hardcore for they make their OWN games.  So why would they be all ga ga over Nintendo's blue ocean stuff?  Businessmen and stockholders sure but why would someone who wants to make the greatest game ever care?  The Wii is a very blatantly corporate console so we're getting corporate games.

Great hyped games = high sales, also brand recognition helps a lot hence why Wii ___, mario, zelda, halo, GTA, Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid, Super Smash Bros, Gears of War sell while games like boom blox, culdcept, "insert obscure game here" don't sell because there don't sell because no brand recognition, no hype, no word of mouth, no advertisement = no sale. And why go ga ga over Nintendo's "Blue Ocean" stuff because the Blue Ocean stuff brings in a whole new audience that's not tapped and can be quite interested in the game specifically targeted for that audience.

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Offline Adrock

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 07:23:49 PM »
Apparently, Nintendo didn't tell developers about Motion Plus until just before E3. That complete lack of communication between Nintendo and 3rd parties is probably a big reason why support sucks such a wide variety of ass.

3rd party support isn't great, but it's been worse..... much worse. If it's ever going to change, both sides need to make some changes.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 07:32:28 PM by Adrock »

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2008, 07:39:31 PM »
lolz, when "they" cry a river, expect the Great Flood.

they're smothered in the Blue Ocean all the same
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2008, 07:42:31 PM »
Quote
Apparently, Nintendo didn't tell developers about Motion Plus until just before E3. That complete lack of communication between Nintendo and 3rd parties is probably a big reason why support sucks such a wide variety of ass.

Oh that is a problem.  I suppose 3rd parties may need another 2 years or so to get over the shock.  More garbage shovelware incoming.  Oh well.. at least third parties are making boatloads of money el-



Oh... maybe not.  Maybe I guess they should acknowledge the Wii as the market leader and cowboy the hell up.  Maybe they could have some of that Wii blue, instead of fighting over the rest combined, which is a negative figure.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 07:44:10 PM by Deguello »
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2008, 07:43:52 PM »
I'm not acting like the best videogames are devoid of corporate involvement.  Videogames are a business.  I know that.  Everyone knows that.  And I don't care provided the results are still good.

But not every dev team is a bunch of corporate shills.  It is an artform.  Yeah someone is footing the bill with intention of making some dough but there has always been a difference between making something exceptional, good, "good enough", or not caring whatsoever provided you can con people into buying it.  Not all devs are equal, some make better games than others.  Some prefer to make better games than others.  There has definitely been a "bigger is better" attitude.  It's very rare that a development team of any notable recognition does not appear to try to push things forward.  Everything gets bigger.

Maybe that's just because it's an old business strategy.  Maybe it's just because "bigger" is an easy way to stay fresh enough to not bore customers.  It's easier to just throw more stuff in.  That is likely the biggest obstacle on the Wii.  If you can't just make it bigger then what do you do?  Well if you don't know why bother?  Release junk, watch it sell with the rubes and call it a day.  Meanwhile use the "bigger is better" method on the Xbox 360 where it's still possible.

My argument is that the Wii is a big annoying limitation: last gen hardware and wacky controller.  So no wonder the enthusiasm from third parties isn't there.  No wonder we just get crap.  At least with the other consoles that "cap" isn't there.  A developer can at least just go nuts and make it bigger and that still results in better games than waggle controls.  It's really no different than Square jumping to the PS2 so that Final Fantasy VII could have FMV and redbook audio.  They couldn't do what they wanted on the N64.  If you can't do what you want on the Wii you're not going to make it on the Wii because you can still make a profit releasing the game on the PS3 and Xbox 360.

Nintendo's whole plan very specifically is to restrict videogame design.  Sony may be using the PS3 to push Blu-Ray and MS is, well, MS but no one is actively promoting intentional restraint.  Even from a business perspective if your whole thing is making BIG games and Nintendo is moving in a direction where your product has no market why would you support their console?  Might as well back the competitor in hope of survival.

It is a business but can you not tell which games the developers clearly had pride in making and which ones they were just collecting a paycheque?  I think it's often clear as day.  Not every game is rushed to release.  There is always money riding on it but you can tell that certain devs want to really go nuts and do what they can within the scope their backer allows.

Do you prefer the theory that Nintendo has just created a console where crap sells and thus no one bothers to make anything but crap?  But if that's all there is why is ANYONE making games for the other consoles at all?  Might as well just dump everything on the Wii and not even bother to make decent games.  Yet somehow these games exist and are being made for a console other than the Wii.  That suggests to me a desire somewhere in the pipeline to make a decent game.  If everyone only cared about money then every game would only be "good enough" to get the sale.  It would all be like EA.

And off topic but I would seriously question Star Fox as the SNES graphical peak.  I would consider all the games you mentioned as crushing Star Fox's graphics like an ant.  They certainly all looked cutting edge at the time and wowed the pants off everyone.

Making money off something creative doesn't make you a sell out.  That's just the reality of not starving to death.  It's not caring at all about the product you make that makes you a sell out.  If it's a just a job for you then you're a sell out.  With most Wii third party games it appears the dev makes videogames entirely because it's a job for them.  Those who actually put some pride in their work are on the other consoles, which coincidentally don't have a big annoying hardware restriction or a company actively promoting toning back games to provide mainstream appeal.

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2008, 07:47:47 PM »
It's true but at the same time it's not.

Truly creative people make do with what they have to make something good. On the other hand, if i gave you the fastest car on earth (Bugatti Veyron please), eventually you'd just want a faster one.

Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2008, 07:52:39 PM »
Gah WORDSWORDSWORDS.

Quote
A developer can at least just go nuts and make it bigger and that still results in better games than waggle controls.  It's really no different than Square jumping to the PS2 so that Final Fantasy VII could have FMV and redbook audio.  They couldn't do what they wanted on the N64.

Yeah and the skyrocketing userbase of the PS1 had absolutely zero to do with it.  And I assuredly hope you meant PS1.

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Do you prefer the theory that Nintendo has just created a console where crap sells and thus no one bothers to make anything but crap?

Crap sold on the PS2.  Crap sold on the PS1.  The PS1 even launched with crap.

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Nintendo's whole plan very specifically is to restrict videogame design.

Ugh oh god shut up.

Man most of that post was terrible.  You keep thinking like these developers are  ENTITLED to have what they want.  It's business.  IF they don't want to join the Wii, they can sit over there with the people in the red on that chart.  Or they can step into profit by real attempts at software, the kind Nintendo actually makes.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2008, 07:55:09 PM »
"My argument is that the Wii is a big annoying limitation: last gen hardware and wacky controller."

I don't recall anyone complaining about quality of games last generation, so why the hell can people not make good games on more powerful hardware NOW?

"At least with the other consoles that "cap" isn't there.  A developer can at least just go nuts and make it bigger and that still results in better games than waggle controls."

You keep on crying wolf with this whole "art" argument when if you actually cared about games as an art form you'd realize that it IS the cap on a system that forces developers to be creative and to actually focus on the game instead of just the visuals...And developers CAN'T just go nuts anyway, or at least not for very long, considering increasing development costs and decreasing revenues...

"Nintendo's whole plan very specifically is to restrict videogame design."

Yeah, games like Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Metroid Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, etc, sure are restricted...Anyone can see that they are low-quality compared to their last generation efforts...Are you done making up arguments yet?
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2008, 08:05:11 PM »
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You keep thinking like these developers are  ENTITLED to have what they want.  It's business.  IF they don't want to join the Wii, they can sit over there with the people in the red on that chart.  Or they can step into profit by real attempts at software, the kind Nintendo actually makes.

Then why the hell haven't they joined the Wii after all this time?  That's what I'm trying to figure out.  They aren't jumping to the Wii.  They're making the real efforts on the other consoles while the shovelware goes on the Wii.  And I think the Wii has been on the market long enough that they old blind optimistic "well they just didn't expect the Wii to catch on" excuse no longer flies.

Quote
if you actually cared about games as an art form you'd realize that it IS the cap on a system that forces developers to be creative and to actually focus on the game instead of just the visuals

No one is forced to be creative when they have an alternative.  It's only a cap on Wii development not ALL videogames.  No one has to put up with the Wii's restrictions if the other consoles aren't as restrictive.

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I don't recall anyone complaining about quality of games last generation, so why the hell can people not make good games on more powerful hardware NOW?

Well sh!t how come no one is making Atari 2600 games?  No one complained about the quality of those back in 1981.  That's just the nature of the "bigger is better" attitude.

Offline IceCold

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2008, 08:08:16 PM »
1) The industry doesn't treat videogames as art. Publishers have more say than developers when it comes to third party support. So all this **** about "pushing the envelope" is ridiculous. Games go where they make more money. Which is clearly the Wii. The only reason I can think of why this isn't happening is the conspiracy.

2) What do you mean, the "only" way to be creative is if the game requires the remote? Aside from better graphics, how exactly can developers be creative with the 360 and PS3? Please don't bring up AI, physics and number of enemies onscreen, as you usually do.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2008, 08:15:58 PM »
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No one is forced to be creative when they have an alternative.  It's only a cap on Wii development not ALL videogames.  No one has to put up with the Wii's restrictions if the other consoles aren't as restrictive.

Nobody has to put up with CONSOLE restrictions when they have the much more powerful PC platform to work with.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2008, 08:33:46 PM »
Oh that is a problem.  I suppose 3rd parties may need another 2 years or so to get over the shock.
Or....... instead of giving 3rd parties a headstart, Nintendo made it that much harder for them to implement the peripheral's capabilities into their games. So 3rd parties, most of whom have barely embraced the Wii remote, are now even further behind the curve. That sucks for everyone, including Nintendo.

Offline DAaaMan64

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2008, 08:46:17 PM »
Damn, I take a nap for an hour and BAM
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Offline Bill Aurion

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2008, 09:12:13 PM »
Well sh!t how come no one is making Atari 2600 games?  No one complained about the quality of those back in 1981.  That's just the nature of the "bigger is better" attitude.

If "bigger is better," then why didn't everyone move over to XBox and GC when they came out?  The difference between them and PS2 is pretty noticeable, but no one seemed to care...Oh yeah, the whole money/market share issue...It's a shame that it doesn't seem to make a difference anymore...

Then why the hell haven't they joined the Wii after all this time?  That's what I'm trying to figure out.  They aren't jumping to the Wii.  They're making the real efforts on the other consoles while the shovelware goes on the Wii.  And I think the Wii has been on the market long enough that they old blind optimistic "well they just didn't expect the Wii to catch on" excuse no longer flies.

Bias or stupidity...Or perhaps both...The graph that Deg posted above pretty much proves that, yes?

Or....... instead of giving 3rd parties a headstart, Nintendo made it that much harder for them to implement the peripheral's capabilities into their games. So 3rd parties, most of whom have barely embraced the Wii remote, are now even further behind the curve. That sucks for everyone, including Nintendo.

That would also most likely be giving MS and Sony a head-start, as leaks are most certainly likely...It's the reality of business...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 09:15:06 PM by Bill Aurion »
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2008, 09:14:22 PM »
Quote
Or....... instead of giving 3rd parties a headstart, Nintendo made it that much harder for them to implement the peripheral's capabilities into their games. So 3rd parties, most of whom have barely embraced the Wii remote, are now even further behind the curve. That sucks for everyone, including Nintendo.

*points to graph*... Nah I'm not seeing how it sucks for Nintendo.  It sucks for third parties who wrote Nintendo off, invested in HD since 2005, wrote off the Wii, were surprised by Wii, were continually surprisied by Wii, were morbidly and stupidly still surprised by Wii, and Then Nintendo announces a new expansion peripheral that they don't have to use and they whine, have a cry about it, and continue to be surprised.

It's like a customer in a restaurant who doesn't order anything and complains when the guy next to him gets served.  It is no longer Nintendo's fault that 3rd parties fail on Nintendo's systems.  This holds true for the DS as well.  They can either get with the program, get on the gravy train with humility, or they can bitch, whine, and moan until they die.  It is their choice.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2008, 09:21:15 PM »
Wii/DS changed the way games are played, and they've changed the way the gaming business is run (or rather, a modern presentation of the classical business values).

Devs and Publishers, just like gamers, can either adjust, or shrink their way into niche status.  The inability to adjust depends on the individual parties, either by lack of motivation or understanding.

The game makers who aren't catching up to the Wii could be going through a number of things.
- they're too deeply rooted in "themselves", making games for their traditional selves, strictly sticking to what's familiar as far as business goes -- if they're not drivings sales, you have to wonder if they know who the customers really are, and how many of them there are.
- maybe they're not that talented anyway, and aren't brave enough to try even adapting a TRADITIONAL kind of play on the Wii -- the quality of games hasn't increased if the forecast is driven by yesterdecade's gameplay wrapped in tomorrow's HD skins.
- Considering the atmosphere (that i made-up) of commercial shooters headlining consoles rather than PCs is probably just an indication of the general migration of would-be-PC-devs converting their business to console gaming.  They're obviously twitch-twitch-bang-bang game makers, and are pretty much stuck where they are, simply catering a genre and hugging onto increased hardware power -- they're not necessarily the devs you'd expect to motivate themselves with new experiences on new platforms.
- The publishers might be just as clueless as a the devs, but instead of clinging to gaming values, they're stuck with their HD investments (pre-Wii) and traditional formulas for success.  They might not even be as adventurous as the "Birdmen".
- blah blah blah

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« Last Edit: July 29, 2008, 09:24:16 PM by NinGurl 69 *huggles »
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Offline Mario

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2008, 10:18:02 PM »
In my opinion you shouldn't even be allowed to open your mouth about any third party "issue" if you haven't even tried the best third party Wii offerings. Kororinpa, Eledees, Boom Blox, No More Heroes. They aren't B titles. Lock the thread until Ian can give a review of each  title.

Offline Djunknown

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2008, 10:26:22 PM »
Ian, read these articles.

If you have time, check these out too. What's your take?

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Offline Flames_of_chaos

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2008, 10:42:21 PM »
No offense DJU but malstrom is full of **** with how he tries to explain things.
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Offline Deguello

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2008, 10:46:21 PM »
How he tries to explain things?  That's a pretty nuanced thing the get huffy about.  Most people just claim he's wrong.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2008, 10:48:10 PM »
Regardless of how they're explained, they're explained.  Sorry it's too casual for the hardcore elitist website readers out there.
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Offline NWR_pap64

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2008, 10:48:51 PM »
I was thinking of putting my two cents on the matter...but I decided to back away. Why? This is an issue that will never be solved among the fans and it will go on and on...even if a clear solution presents itself.

Long story short; third party support is better than what we got during the N64 and GC years, but developers need to treat the system with a tad more respect.

Agree or disagree, that's pretty much the deal.
Pedro Hernandez
NWR Staff Writer

Offline Peachylala

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Re: Theory about third party support
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2008, 12:06:49 AM »
Nintendo consoles and Third Parties, whether the support was solid or shitty, have never been best friends with each other, ever. Third parties bitch and complain that hardcore games don't sell on the Wii. The Big N's core audience bitch and whine that third parties don't support the Wii. Hell, it's been like this since the N64 days. We N fans can hardly forgive or forget.

I'm off to play hard mode on Sin & Punishment now.

Peachy got himself a 360 Slim. ...Yahoo?