Topic: Penny-Arcade: Gabes take on Wind Waker

[CitizenKaine]

I read Penny-Arcade.com every day, and Im sure most of you have at least been there a few times. Today Gabe made a short post about Wind Waker that pretty much sums up my feelings on the art style.  I cant wait for Monday. ::} Penny-Arcade.com

Kaine  

[Grey Ninja]

Yeah, I actually clapped when I read that.  I hope that the cartoon that they make about the game says as much too.  That would make me very happy, and hopefully decrease the amount of lamers complaining about the return of the old graphical style of Zelda.

[Gibdo Master]

Quote
A group of children giggling in front of a nude painting doesn't mean it's a terrible painting. They simply are not sophisticated enough to appreciate it. It is the same with Zelda. - Gabe Penny-Arcade.com

That was a really good way of putting it.
 

[Sean]

What Gabe said was more succintly and better put than most anywhere else I've seen.

The thing I find most incredible is that so few people actually understand even the most elementary concepts of art, in general.  The main problem may be that most people aren't really ready to see games as an artform (in an admittedly incubative state, of course), and so their perspective on the medium itself is fairly unimaginative and narrow.  Subtlety and nuance aren't easily recognized by the masses (I know that sounds snotty, and I don't mean it to), so it's that much harder for such concepts to really be appreciated in a medium so stereotyped by the extreme.

[RickPowers]

Gabe and I may have a difference of opinion on games sometimes, but his comments were absolutely perfect.  

I must say, I'm a bit more than half-way through Wind Waker for the second time now, having made it to the last dungeon then quit to save the ending for the US version.  And I have to say, Wind Waker is the best game I've ever played.  I don't love it ... I'm IN love with it.

I feel sad for the fans of "Ocarina of Time" who might skip this game because they don't like the look.  At the risk of spoiling part of the game for people, Wind Waker is about as much of a sequel to Ocarina as there can be.  There are a number of details about Ocarina that are revealed, plus some absolutely jaw-dropping moments when things are revealed for the first time.  I can't beleive how many things I had the completely wrong idea about from playing the Japanese version.  Here's a tip, the FAQ's for the Japanese version that try to give you some of the backstory are largely in error about certain plot points and whatnot.

Anyway, I'm having an absolute blast.  You will too.

[Hybrid Hunter]

That should keep some stupid peoples mouths shut.
You Americans are so lucky to get Wind Waker in a few days, i have to wait until May!
Oh well, we'll get Metroid to quench our thirst
Gotta find a friend whose getting it, cos i'm poor lol

[egman]

I have to praise Gabe's comments as well. I think too many gamers get caught up with the technical details of video games and waiting for CG level graphics to see that it's even more important to have effective art design. I'm getting tired of games being put down because not everyting on the screen is bump mapped or using high-res textures. Also, just because the art design doesn't look like Splinter Cell, that doesn't make the game less sophisticated. The meat of a game is gameplay folks.  

[StRaNgE]

rick, did you notice the differences in game play that  are supposedly made between the two versions?

[Icons by Size]

gamespot said the game was great but it was even easier than ocarina of time....whats up with that?

[Don'tHate742]

FAMITSU GAVE WIND WAKER A PERFECT SCORE!

look in the first few lines of the review

[mouse_clicker]

I loved the email he got from that guy that only went to prove his point:

"So we are not dumb enough to appreciate the wonderful queerness that is the new zelda look?"

Also, here's his original comment on the subject, which I fully agree with:

Penny-Arcade

I have to say, the impression I get from most of Gabe and Tycho's comments is that they're jerks (mostly from what they say about their competitors- *hilarious* comic but they have no clue of the meaning of the word "humble"), but I really think Gabe hit the nail on the head.

[Icons by Size]

they dont sound like jerks to me....they tell it how it is.  the best part about them is that they are not biased in any way and they love games of all kind.

[Mario]

Quote
A group of children giggling in front of a nude painting doesn't mean it's a terrible painting. They simply are not sophisticated enough to appreciate it. It is the same with Zelda.

*sniff*

Quote
Gabe and I may have a difference of opinion on games sometimes, but his comments were absolutely perfect.

I must say, I'm a bit more than half-way through Wind Waker for the second time now, having made it to the last dungeon then quit to save the ending for the US version. And I have to say, Wind Waker is the best game I've ever played. I don't love it ... I'm IN love with it.

I feel sad for the fans of "Ocarina of Time" who might skip this game because they don't like the look. At the risk of spoiling part of the game for people, Wind Waker is about as much of a sequel to Ocarina as there can be. There are a number of details about Ocarina that are revealed, plus some absolutely jaw-dropping moments when things are revealed for the first time. I can't beleive how many things I had the completely wrong idea about from playing the Japanese version. Here's a tip, the FAQ's for the Japanese version that try to give you some of the backstory are largely in error about certain plot points and whatnot.

Anyway, I'm having an absolute blast. You will too.

*sniff sniff* Im sorry, i think i have something in my eye... What a beautiful game, OMG The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker just sounds too good to be true... I love you Nintendo *bursts into tears*

[mouse_clicker]

"they dont sound like jerks to me....they tell it how it is."

By bashing their competitors? Hardly "Telling it how it is". I remember when some fans of a much smaller web comic claimed Penny-Arcade was ripping it off. The author of the smaller web comic (can't remember it's name) said he didn't see any correlation, he has the utmost respect for Gabe and Tycho at Penny-Arcade, and personally apologized for any confusion. Tycho, on the other hand, bashed the guy and his site, saying his comic was crap and he shouldn't flatter himself thinking that it was anywhere near as good as Penny-Arcade. Now maybe I just have a weird sense of what being nice is, but Tycho came off as a complete and utter asshole in that situation. On top of that, Gabe has taken many cracks at the people over at Mega-Tokyo, which I think is nearly as good as PA, mainly bashing them for not always being able to get a comic up every day. I mean, if you want to talk about hard work, look at comic strip artists in newspapers. They have to personally write and draw a strip for every single day of the week, much larger ones on Sundays, weeks in advance while Penny-Arcade is done by two people on computers and only puts out 3 strips a week. Who's really the harder worker?

I love Penny-Arcade to death, but Gabe and Tycho seem like they need a lesson in respecting the people who aren't quite as successful as they are.

[Modulus-X]

Quote
I mean, if you want to talk about hard work, look at comic strip artists in newspapers. They have to personally write and draw a strip for every single day of the week, much larger ones on Sundays, weeks in advance while Penny-Arcade is done by two people on computers and only puts out 3 strips a week. Who's really the harder worker?

The thing is, is that Penny-Arcade's comics include a KEY feature that the weekly comics dont have, color.  Tycho can quicky sketch out some comics and post them everyday, but adding colors, and getting that right is a lot more work than we think, and each comic is accompanied by a well written rant (sometimes).  PA is class and I have nothing wrong with them, they have the right to say anything they want, if you don't like it read something else...

But anyway, Rick, I have a friend who thought, "Ocarina just wasn't fun..". Yes I agree that this comment is heresy, I was on the brink on dishoning him and not socializing with him (but he's good at Warcraft 3 and I need Arranged Teammates).  He is a huge fan of Link to the Past.  Will he enjoy Wind Waker?

[Strell]

mouse_clicker, let me tell you why you are wrong.

You can't compare online comics to newspaper comics.  Those are two completely different industries.  Online comics aren't given a yearly salary, they don't have a userbase that is gaurenteed X number of readers, they don't get paid vacation, etc etc etc.  They pay for their own servers, they have to supply their own equipment, and they have to somehow advertise themselves.  They also have loads more competition to deal with that newspaper comics.  They are worlds apart from newspaper comics.  You're comparing apples and oranges.  In fact, you're comparing apples to oranges from outer space.  Eeeeevil oranges from outer space.

As far as their wannabe competitor situation goes, that guy clearly ripped off Penny Arcade.  You must have missed the part where Gabe put some 4 pics he drew of backgrounds for the comic against 4 from the other site.  The similarities were uncanny, except the other guy clearly couldn't draw.  And besides, I like how Gabe put it: "You wouldn't be happy if some guy walked into your house and started stealing your stuff and try to appease you by saying 'I love your stuff.'"  In other words, you don't rip someone off and pretend it didn't happen.  Gabe had every right to be pissed off.  Also, and this is a personal opinion, the other site sucked.  It's called movie comics or something.  And if the author truly had respect, he wouldn't do it by ripping someone off.  There's a difference between inspiration and blatently copying something.  A huge difference.  Monumental even.

Mega tokyo?  That's Gabir and Tycho's personal opinion.  But again you're missing the point.  They bash them more because they don't update regularly, which is a cardinal sin in the online world.  It's less a childish insult and more of a "this is the way we do things, and this is why we're regarded as a top online comic."  If Starbucks bashed a competitor by saying that it's coffee sucked, that's one thing.  But if they point out that they don't have good customer service, or their prices are all wrong, or it screws customers, etc., that's legitimate.  It's called business.  One company is always going to do something better than other companies.  You can disagree that PA is a good comic or that it's funny, but you can't disagree that they run their operation smoothly and professionally.  I'm not saying you dislike the comic =(you DO say, of course, that you do like it), I'm speaking from a hypothetical sense.

As far as Wind Waker goes, let's just say the kids that don't enjoy it are the same kids that can't enjoy old DOS, NES, and SNES games because they think 2D sucks.  Just stfu, you have no credibility.

Btw, first post here, hi everyone, pleased to meet you, do you know my name?

-Strell

[mouse_clicker]

I still think newspaper comics work harder. I don't see the deal with competition being larger online- sure anyone can put up a comic but very few actually get big. Look at the comics page of your average big city newspaper and it's CRAMMED full of comics, even excluding the vast majority. This makes it extremely difficult for cartoonists to not only get their work recognized, but actually find a syndicator who will support them. There are a LOT of people who have ideas for comics, and it's much harder to get your idea popular if you're doing it via newspapers, while on the internet all you have to do is post it on your website. Couple all that with, like I said, the fact that cartoonists have to draw 7 comics a week (and I mean HAVE to- how many comics do you know only run on mondays and fridays, for example?) and they have to write, draw, and ink the thing all themselves in most cases. Now I understand from what you said that online cartooning isn't a cake walk by any means, but I still hold by my opinion that newspaper cartooning requires more work.

I didn't see those pictures you referred to, so I apologize there. I still think they have a lesson to learn in humbleness, though, and  know they read these forums, so maybe they'll read this, or maybe they've already decided I'm an ignorant jerk, which wouldn't be that far from the truth, but I've never been one for bashing competitors. Call it a curse, but I think they should maybe refrain from putting down their competitors. The people over at Mega Tokyo are very hard working and if you ask me, their art KILLS what's in Penny-Arcade (I'm not saying PA's is bad, but IMO MT is much more artistic). Of course, now my case sounds very shorthanded, so I probably won't continue it, especially since Gabe and Tycho don't need a lesson in winning fans- what they did to that Blockbuster ad is proof enough my opinion is not widely shared. Oh well, I still like the comics.

BTW, are you sure you're new? I could've sworn I've seen you around somewhere before.

[Strell]

It's not a question of pure number here.  It's a question of logistics and placement.  You're right, any person (read: fool) can start up an online comic (and yea, with all the crap sprite comics out there with NO originality and NO sense of real humor, it's not hard to see that) and it's no big deal.  You can get free hosting, you can get a cheap scanner or tablet, and you can do the comic.  Make it about video games (RPGs are big, I think) or about your life in general, and yea, you've got fodder (read: crap) for a comic.  It'll prolly be read by your friends and maybe some other people, but chances are it will be that sort of "hole in the wall, corner of the map" thing.

7 vs 3?  Yea, that's a big difference.  But it's not what is at stake here.

You mentioned lots of comics on the comics page.  Well there you go - all those cartoonists have some sort of pay for that.  All of them.  It doesn't matter if anyone reads it or not, it's there, it's been payed for.  A newspaper won't waste valuable space on simply nothing.  It's really, really hard to gauge how popular a comic is based on one newspaper.  It's a volume market - if Beetle Bailey is in 100K newspapers a day, yea, it's popular.  If Zits is only in 10K, it's pretty moderate.  Of course I'm making up numbers here, but the point stands.  In any case, you're getting paid whether or not people are reading it.  The venture works whether or not you can successfully sell your strip to other newspapers.  If you can't, yes, you suck.  End of story.  

But there's NO gaurentee that when PA puts up a comic that they will get any money from it.  I'm actually curious as to how much they get a month, but my guess is MAYBE 6-8K, if even that.  I' say half is donation and the other half is from T-shirt sales.  And that amount of money split between two people isn't a lot at all.  Hell, let's give them 10K a month.  That's 60K a year for each, but after taxes and whatnot, it's not a glorious job.  Hell, Brian Clevinger of 8bit Theater gets roughly 1000 a month, perhaps more due to merchandise, and he constantly remarks about how it's just enough to get by.

I dunno how much newspaper cartoonists make, but I'm pretty sure its far more of a stable market than online cartooning.  AGain, I could be wrong.

Mega tokyo?  They might work hard.  I don't read their comic, I don't know how they run things, but I'll take PA as credible, so when they say they don't update regularly, I have to go by virtual word-of-mouth.  That said, (opinion starts here) I think MT sucks.  Their art sucks.  And if you think I have nothing to talk about here, I myself am an artist, and I really want to start my own online comic someday.  But MT's bastardization of anime art is pathetic.  Any damn person (read: fool again) can try to draw anime, but it's way, WAY more than just drawing big eyes and short skirts.  Now I'll admit MT has a decent idea on their hands, and their poster (or is it shirt?) that has the girl saying "Does anyone here speek 1337?" makes me chuckle, but their art sucks.  If you truly think it's artistic, well then, I'm sorry.  That's your opinon and you're entitled to it, but I disagree with it.

Making up a story might seem difficult, but I gaurantee most of these artists start with prolly 10-15 comics and just go from their.  Improvisation is a powerful thing.  Why else do bloggers have such an easy time writing stuff? Because it comes so natural.  So I don't buy the argument that MT has to deal with storylines and come up with stuff like that.

Again, anything regarding MT is my full opinion, so you can disagree with it.

That said, I've never posted here.  There was a nintendo site a loooooong time ago called nintendonation.com, run by Don Allen, and I was a regular poster there.  Since it went down it's migrated to different spots online, so I keep up with it, but the forum portion of it hasn't recovered since the original bit the dust.  Steven - aka Windyman (or Wyndyman as I call him) - started writing editorials over at nintendonation.com, and he moved here just before it went down.  No, me and him aren't tight.  He smells like cabbage (on a good day).

Only other place my name my show up is my blog (yes, I know I just bashed them, but I won't deny they are fun) and in an online game called Subspace.  

Other than that, complete neophyte to these boards.

-Strell

[JoeSmashBro]

Umm... I don't know what online comic you guys are reading but Penny Arcade isn't a very good one. They have a halarious comic once a month. The rest dont' even make me laugh "on the inside." Now, I do visit the site all the time, but that's to read their comments about games, NOT to read theyre comics. there ARE comics updated every day online that are actually funny every day. the authors appear to actually put more than 2 hours of work in per day (writing and drawing i mean, who knows about site updates etc).. Sluggy.com, for example, by far #1 online webcomic.

Now, the last three comics posted at penny-arcade have been pretty funny, but that's the exception.

And yes, it is impressive to keep updating it on time. take a look at the free webcomic site keenspace.com. thousands of comics that last for one week and then never see the light of day. I even had one there for a month (iminaband.keenspace.com) but i stopped mostly because of lack of any artistic skill whatsoever. =P

[Luigi]

LOL, Strell.  I miss Subspace.

- "Dude, meet you at T20!" - "No way, that's too many Vulchers for me."

[Strell]

OMG Luigi, it's still around.   Sure, the VIE Servers went down, but a bunch of players still run sites.  Hell, I had a league game today in Powerball!

The new version of it is called "Continuum."  I actually know one of the guys that programmed it.  Anyway, head to www.powerballzone.com to get the latest version.

Geez.  Most. addictive. game. ever.

T20?  Sounds like Turf Zone to me.

"//EVERYONE SECURE THE COMBS."

*omg*

[mouse_clicker]

Sure at least newspaper cartoonists are insured pay once they get into a newspaper, but that is ONCE they get into a newspaper, which is a feat in of itself. Being syndicated is extremely hard, especially since you have to know what's marketable rather than what's good. I'm sure there are thousands of hilarious comic strips that get turned down every month by syndicators because they simply won't market. That's besides the just plain bad ones. On top of that, cartoonists rarely, if ever, get their first cartoon submission syndicated. Some cartoonists have so much trouble they have to syndicate the strip themselves.

Which involves selling the strip to newspapers, who are the real source of money, and they don't pay a whole lot. I think it's something like $30-40 for a weeks worth of strips sans Sunday, depending on the paper and depending on how popular yoru strip is, which is laughable at comics that are starting off. So now that they've gotten a syndicator and have their comic sold to a few nespapers, the strip actually has to get popular before the cartoonist can make any real money.  I know Gary Larson has said he also barey had enough to get by when the Far Side was just starting out and when he was doing he first comic Nature's Way.

And quite frankly, most comics DON'T get popular. It's extremely hard to break onto the scene because papers, especially big ones, are very reluctant to let in unknown or less popular strips because they won't guaruntee readers like the proven ones will, which is why you're probably familiar with nearly every comic strip in your newspaper. Once you get from their, and once your strip is popular, which is very rare considering how many strips are submitted, being a cartoonist can net big bucks, especially if you license out the characters, like Jim Davis has done with Garfield.

And 7 versus 3 isn't that big of an issue, but if *you* were making the strips, having to make 4 more a week is not easy by any stretch of the word.

So please don't think cartooning for newspapers is easy at all. I know doing a web comic isn't easy, either (especially when, according to you, the most popular one only gets about $6,000 a year- I'd really suggest a part time job for some of those guys), but I still think it's easier to get it up and running and potentially popular since you don't have editors and syndicators and newspapers breathing down your back, threatening to drop you, if you're not funny every single time. At least with the internet your potential user base is the world while with comic strips it's how many papers took a chance to pick you up.

NintendoNation, THAT'S it. I loved that website. I never signed up or posted in their forums but I visited them quite often. I'm sure that's where I've noticed your name.

[David G]

I think its funny all those comments about the "Kiddie" Celda, and most of the people are writing to an online gaming/comic site.  

[Strell]

Meh, my argument still stands that the difficulty in getting noticed and getting paid is on par, if not more than, newspaper comics.  I also think that the salary thing is by and far more of an issue.  If you throw out the "startup" phase and purely base it on salary, then newspaper comics win everytime.  And if you inclue the startup phase, they are more or less identical.  Penny Arcade didn't hit popularity, I'd assume, for a year at least.  At LEAST.  I didn't know about them til their second or third year at BEST, and I'm a pretty big fan.  ANd how much money did they make during that time?  I'm guessing negative.  Why negative?  B/c they had to pay for a server.  A newspaper artist, on the other hand, just gets rejected.  He doesn't pay 30-50 bucks a month to get rejected.

The potential for the whole "world" as a customer seems inviting, but it's just that - a potential.  I have a potential to be the greatest sex god too.  I think you see my point.

Somoene said keenspace has thousands of comics.  Yea, but how many of them have you heard about?  I'd say the average internet user is blatently unaware of online comics, peroid.  Beyond that you'd find the people who know about Penny-Arcade, and then you'd have to dig deep to find the hardcore fans of places like 8Bit Theatre, Sinfest, Commander Kitty, etc.  (all of which I'm a huge fan).  

Oh, and whoever said they go to PA to read the comments and not the comics?  I kinda agree.  Tycho is a badass writer.  The comics are good (I respect Gabe as an artist to an extent), but Tycho's comments are comedy gold.  He's a bonafide badass.

You make some better points than I figured you would (har), so I'll go ahead and say that I think the argument is done, with points for both sides.  I think I score a fade away three pointer in the final sercond of the game and win, though.  But that's just my opinion.

[Sion441]

Bah, just tell them to look at INSANELY good reviews and they should see they are obviously unfounded about the graphics.