Topic: PSP vs. DS ... Final Verdict (G4)

[RickPowers]

Because you're not using the stylus as a "fake pen", which is what most of the games are doing.  I've never "drawn a line" in Metroid.  You're using it more like a joystick of sorts (it's closer to a mouse, really).  What you're doing on the touchscreen is not LITERAL.  Maybe that's the difference.  I'm not rubbing someone's stomach, I'm not drawing a picture.  I'm looking around, but using the stylus to do it.  Something about that just feels right.

Mario 64 had dual-handed control as well, but I found that using the touchscreen to MOVE felt clunky and awkward (likewise in Metroid).  However, Metroid allows you to move with the D-Pad, but you aim with the stylus?  Why does that work better?  I'm really not entirely sure, but it does.  With Mario, I quickly switched to using the D-Pad and buttons unless I had to do the swinging around move.

Mantidor ...

Funny you mention that.  Microsoft tried this back with Windows 3.0, nearly a DECADE ago.  They added pen input to Windows, and it was a collosal failure.  They keey trying, because the theory is that using a pen (stylus) is intuitive ... we know how to do it.  Yet try as they might, people reject it on the desktop.  Could it be because the mouse is a better interface, or because we've already learned a different way?  I have to think that if it's really that intuitive, what we've already learned shouldn't matter, because we learned to write far before that, right?

Stylus input works on PDAs, but only because there is no other input method.  Even so, manufacturers keep adding buttons and "jog dials" and other things so that people can access programs without the stylus!  There's a disconnect, and I have to think that it's because while using a pen is intuitive, it's also sloppy, time consuming, and imprecise.  I could be wrong in my assessment, but the facts themselves can't be denied ... rarely does a pen interface succeed when other input mechanisms are available.

[Savior]

Speaking about Metroid

I think Nintendos Fumble might actually help out in the end. Had nintendo released some better games since the launch of the DS sales would be even better, and we wouldnt hear how the PSP is better, but in the long run it might help

In the last 6 months of 2005, the DS will have a slew of great games, Prime Hunters, Mario Kart, Animal Crossing, Castlevania. The PSP Doesnt really have alot in the near future. Theres the promise of GTA PSP true but still the software  balance will skew Nintendos way. They just have to weather the initial storm of March-April-May-June that will see Sony get some momentum

Oh and i agree with you 100 percent about Metroid being The Game Rick..  I read it might not be online though. Im hoping Nintendo reconsiders and makes it 8 player online enabled.

[mantidor]

About the microsoft example... the whole touch interface failed solely because of the input device itself? didnt the high price (because I suppose that touching technology  a whole ten years ago was expensive) didnt have anything to do with it? I really think that it wasnt just touching, it was another number of factors, it wasnt time for it yet. In fact Im willing to bet that in the future touching input will be the rule, I havent the slightest doubt about that, and Im not basing that just on hollywood and science fiction in general, Im seeing it every day.

Even if the problem with windows was solely due to the touchscreen I honestly think it was because we are already used to use a mouse as an input device, if its really superior then why every single museum Ive been to uses touching screens instead of puting a mouse? touching is essentially easier, the problem again is the already defined userbase, I really cant explain myself any better so Ill put two examples:

1) the Dvorjak (sp?) keyboard arrangement has already been proved to be superior to the qwerty arrangement, but we know theres no way in hell it will become standard, never, even if someone actually pulls out a big campain to make it known to the average consumer, this is an extreme case scenario similar of what its happening with the touchscreen as an input device.

2) I have a really hard time trying to teach my mom to use the controller of the GC, even for such simple games as Mario Party, my brother has tried to play with her many, many times, but always she walks out, she finds it boring, and frustrating, can you really say that she will have the same reaction when playing Yoshi's touch and go or WarioWare?

[RickPowers]

Dvorak will never work because people have invested too much time and money in the current "standard".  Sometimes it's not a question of what's better, sometimes it's a matter of not fixing what isn't entirely broken.  I think trying to get pen input into computers is trying to fix what isn't entirely broken.

That said, there are always exceptions.  I recently got to borrow a Tablet PC from HP, and while the resolution was low, and my handwriting sucks, there is a killer app for the Tablet PC that (if it were to get more exposure) could prove to be the system seller, as it were.  Microsoft has a note-taking application called OneNote that accepts typing, handwriting, audio, screenshots, etc ... into note pages, then catalogs and indexes them.  It's incredibly powerful, and I'd love to get a Tablet PC just for that.

Back onto the subject ... I think you have a point (one that I've been WAITING for someone to bring up), and that's the fact that the new interface is non-intuitive for GAMERS, but is perfect for non-gamers.  And therein lies my concern ... I think Nintendo is going to continue to make simplistic games  that use the stylus in not terribly innovative ways, because they are intentionally using the DS to attract non-gamers (or "casual gamers", as Nintendo likes to call them).  Judging by the current slate of software, I think that's probably accurate.  I just hope that this doesn't end up being a case of either/or for the marketplace.

[Noble~Feather]

My opinion? Just don't listen to sources like that.

When I say "Like that", I mean they just aren't as profesional as most sources.

"Like that" sources would include G4, Joystiq, 1UP, ect. Even IGN, in some cases.

[Berto2K]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
Eventually I'm sure we'll see a spy game where you have to draw lines to connect electronic circuits, or draw a line to cut the connections to defuse a bomb.

But you do that in the game you are loathing so much in the beginning of this thread Rick.  In Wario Ware Touched! you do diffuse bombs with the stylus, and you do connect wires to form circuits.  But you don't like to "draw lines" in DS games, and that is what has to take place for both of these actions.

Have you played any PSP games yet Rick?  I asking because I don't know.

From what I have played at press gamers days and at GDC, PSP games have graphics and thats bout it.  People are going crazy for Lumines.  I like puzzle games yet this bored me.  Ac!d plays like crap and I can't wait for people from the US (who can't wait for it) start playing it and realize how clunky and slow it is.  

As Mario said, the large majority of PSP launch games are either ports or sports.  Sports will be the major selling point for the system.  That is the only genre apart from FPS (which control better on DS with the "mouse-look" type control) which the mass gaming public want more graphics in.

[Mario]

Quote
Back onto the subject ... I think you have a point (one that I've been WAITING for someone to bring up), and that's the fact that the new interface is non-intuitive for GAMERS, but is perfect for non-gamers.

Now where have I heard that before?

[Shecky]

I want to see games that don't use the touchscreen for gameplay.  I get this impression that if a "PSP *like*" game were released for the DS, it would be dinged for not using the touchscreen.

Better example, think the next EA NFL title.  Picture a version for the PSP.  Say it has good looks, online play, etc, etc.  Now picture moving that to the DS.  Ok maybe the graphics get toned down a bit.  However what if everything else were exactly the same?  I say it's just as good a game then.  I'm sure though people will complain of how they can't pick their plays with the touch screen, or heck that they can't just "call out" their plays to the microphone.  If they are included as a bonus way of doing things, or interfacing, great!  Why ding it if it doesn't though.

<rant> Try pausing in SMB64 DS and navigating the pause menu with just the buttons... go ahead try.  I personally use the D-Pad to play that game and if I wan't to pause and use that menu... I need to change my method of input - gar!</rant>

In the Madden example I see 3 things roughly happening:
1) Normal Madden game, akin to what you'd get on the PSP
2) Normal Madden + "DS" features
3) Normal Madden + "DS" features - Online

What would be great is 2, what would be second best in my book is 1.  Unfortunately, what I see companies potentially doing is perhaps choosing 3.  

[Noble~Feather]

Well, I read the entire thread.

Appearently, it is thought that the DS uses the same input in touch screen all the time, and it wouldn't matter if it just had games that didn't use ANY of the DS features, but were still good. Which is true.

All that matters is the games. People call DS a gimmick, and right now (note that) it might very well be. But this doesn't matter. All that matters is that it has good games; that's what matters for all game systems.

Me personally... I think the DS has the most exciting line-up of any game system ever since the SNES. And that is truely saying something.

[RickPowers]

"But you do that in the game you are loathing so much in the beginning of this thread Rick. In Wario Ware Touched! you do diffuse bombs with the stylus, and you do connect wires to form circuits. But you don't like to "draw lines" in DS games, and that is what has to take place for both of these actions."

I think you just proved my point, but I'm not sure why you did.    I don't like the idea that no matter what you're doing in the game, the action is the same.  I haven't quite put my finger on it, but for some reason, when you're pressing a button, it's more believeable when you're pressing a button and moving a cursor, and maybe it's because it's more abstract, like Jonny wrote in his editorial.  I haven't quite put my finger on it completely (no pun intended), but I'm working on it.

"Have you played any PSP games yet Rick? I asking because I don't know."

Not yet.  I didn't get to E3 last year due to a scheduling conflict, so I haven't had time to really sit down with a unit.  I'm getting one Thursday, so I'll give my impressions by then.  I'm trying to be fair ...  That said, the PSP isn't trying to be innovative.  It's not doing anything other than trying to be a really great game console.  (And before I get bombs in my mailbox, I mean as far as gaming is concerned.)  Yes, it's got great graphics, and a great screen, and tried-and-true gameplay.  It's also got the multimedia stuff as a "buffer" to ensure early adopter purchases, but every single review of the device has said that the games are excellent, and that Sony nailed that aspect of the device.  I'm not hearing that kind of ringing endorsement about the DS.  All I keep hearing (even from people here) is that the great games are coming.  PSP arguably has some great games NOW.  That's hard to argue with.

Maybe I'm just falling further and further out of Nintendo's demographic.  And that makes me sad ...

[Ian Sane]

"I'm setting aside the idea of Sony nixing the Value Pack as their price cut, because I don't think that makes much sense, but... who knows? They just might do that."

Nintendo did that with the Gamecube and it worked quite well.  Originally they included a free game and later the GB Player but it didn't really catch on.  Then they removed the freebie and lowered the price and suddenly sales jumped.  I think people just see a smaller price and get excited.  Plus a lower price with no freebies provides more flexibility.  If I bought a PSP for example I wouldn't want Spiderman 2.  Being able to buy a barebones unit with the option of spending the money I saved on whatever I want is a better deal.

"if its really superior then why every single museum Ive been to uses touching screens instead of puting a mouse?"

That's because it's easier to break a mouse.  When you have something the general public uses you have to take into account stupid jerks and vandals.  It takes no effort to break a mouse (or steal it) while it's REALLY hard to smash a touchscreen.

One thing I like about a keyboard or a mouse or a controller is that it doesn't really feel like I'm using a tool.  Once I'm used to the controls it feels like I'm in direct control like I just have to think.  When I'm playing Mario I don't think to myself "push A to jump" I think "jump".  Because there's that extra layer of abstraction I don't notice what I have to press to do something.  I just do it.  Move your mouse over this sentence.  Are you trying to move your hand or the mouse cursor?  Once you're familiar with a mouse it's like you're controlling the cursor with your mind.

With a stylus you don't get that.  You're always aware that you're moving your hand.  You're not controlling the game or program with your mind.  You're pointing or writing with your hand and a pen.  So it feels like you're doing the same thing all the time.  As Rick said with Metroid Prime Hunters you don't notice your hand so you're aiming, not pointing with a pen.

[PaLaDiN]

There you go... that's exactly where I don't follow your logic.

You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write.

[IceCold]

Quote
Originally posted by: mantidor

2) I have a really hard time trying to teach my mom to use the controller of the GC, even for such simple games as Mario Party, my brother has tried to play with her many, many times, but always she walks out, she finds it boring, and frustrating, can you really say that she will have the same reaction when playing Yoshi's touch and go or WarioWare?

How true... My Dad is the same way - he just gets bored/frustrated as soon as he tried to play any game on the Cube, saying that it doesn't feel right or intuitive. However, he has no problem at all with the DS. I think that all of us have played analog so much that we've gotten completely used to it, but actually the touchscreen is definitely more intuitive. I can remember playing Goldeneye on the N64 the first time. It was so weird moving around with the analog stick - I kept automatically moving my left hand back to the control pad.  

I found the controls perfect as soon as I started, and those who didn't will certainly adjust - it really doesn't take long to use the controls without thinking of them. Also, Nintendo won't keep releasing the same types of games - they just won't. Come on..do you really think that they don't know what they're doing THAT much?  

[Ian Sane]

"You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write."

I can always tell I'm writing.  With a keyboard I'm not always conscience that I'm pushing buttons.  It's more like letters just appear on the screen as a type.

[RickPowers]

"You can't tell me that you're always aware that you're moving your hand when you write."

Considering the level of carpal tunnel in my wrists, I can state with the utmost certainty that I am always aware that I'm moving my hand (wrist) when I write.  Something I keep trying to remind myself as I'm about to take a couple of proctored, hand-written essays ...

[PaLaDiN]

"I can always tell I'm writing."

All right, that's definitely weird. I have no problems lapsing into a state where my thoughts appear directly on the paper as I write... in fact I can do it with both pen and keyboard but pen gives me more immersion for some reason. It's like my thoughts are more of a flowing analog movement than a digital series of incremental button presses.

[Berto2K]

Bah, I had carpal tunnel surgery on both wrists before I turned 15.  And it was from genetics.  No excuse Rick.

[IceCold]

Adaptation is the name of the game. Whenever we use something new, it takes a while to adjust. The DS is not the same as any game we've played so obviously it will take time to adjust to it. However, once you get the controls, it becomes really effortless.

[Deguello]

Where the hell is this faux-elitism coming from?  "Non-gamers?"  Notice my avatar.  Obviously I am a Wario Ware fan of a big nature.  So am I a non-gamer for enjoying Wario Ware?  Nuts on both Ian and Rick.  Go back to GAF.  They like that elitist bullshit there.

[IceCold]

Your avatar has changed but w/e I agree with you

[Don'tHate742]

It's like you (Ian and Rick) don't like physical movement at all. Moving a stylus across a screen requires more muscles to be used. Pushing buttons require your thumb. You said you couldn't put your finger on what made the pushing of a button and movement of a cursor better, but I have. You guys just don't like physical movement, it "detracts" from your overall experience, and I for one think that's a load of crap.

Good luck having fun in the future when games require entire body movement. ahahahaha

[ruby_onix]

Quote
"I'm setting aside the idea of Sony nixing the Value Pack as their price cut, because I don't think that makes much sense, but... who knows? They just might do that."

Nintendo did that with the Gamecube and it worked quite well. Originally they included a free game and later the GB Player but it didn't really catch on. Then they removed the freebie and lowered the price and suddenly sales jumped. I think people just see a smaller price and get excited. Plus a lower price with no freebies provides more flexibility. If I bought a PSP for example I wouldn't want Spiderman 2. Being able to buy a barebones unit with the option of spending the money I saved on whatever I want is a better deal.

I consider the Value Pack to be a required purchase with the PSP.

Value Pack =
32 MB Memory Stick
Headphones
Soft case

The Memory Stick is required when buying a disc-based system. Sure, the 32MB is the PSP equivalent of the GameCube's MC59, and you're going to need to go out and buy a bigger one to take advantage of the PSP's much-hyped features, but those cost an absurd amount, and you'll need to have something from day-1, otherwise you're going to be stuck with an annoyingly-crippled system that you paid more than $200 for.

The soft case is required, because not only is the PSP not a protected clamshell-design like the GBASP and DS, but the screen is everything where the PSP is concerned. You get one little scratch and your "sexy" little perfect device looks mutilated. To top it off, reports from Japan say that the PSP's plastic screen cover is extremely dainty, and quite vulnerable to scratching, moreso than any version of the GameBoy.

The headphones... eh, I say toss them. But they pay a major part in Sony's plan to push the PSP as an i-Pod competing MP3 player. Also, they're supposed to let you hear how much better it is to be playing games with actual CD audio. If you're just playing games with the tiny onboard speakers, your PSP might as well be cart-based. It just ain't a "handheld revolution" without the headphones.


When Nintendo cut the free game/GBP from the Cube and dropped the price, they gave people more choice. More options. With the Value Pack, I don't see much of a choice. And yeah, a lot of people went for it when the price dropped solely because they saw a number that went below a magic point. I chalk that kind of attitude up to "hype" and don't really respect it much.


BTW, Spiderman 2 UMD is only coming with the first million PSP units, AKA: the launch shipment. Sony has already said that they've got the next batch of PSPs ready and waiting (zomg, teh shortages!), and they don't come with Spiderman 2 on UMD. It's a temporary launch-frenzy bribe that costs Sony about $2 (and, y'know, dilutes some Sony Pictures IP, but that's not Kutaragi's problem). They can't cut it before Christmas and then deliver a $20 price drop because of it.

[KDR_11k]

Ian: How about you adjust to pen input and suspend your whining until then? I'm used to pen input because I use a graphics tablet on my PC and I don't see a problem in using the pen. The only issues are that pens don't have as many buttons as mice (and even those that are present are harder to use) and the way DirectX implements mouse control is incompatible with the tablet mode.

That article sucks. It was nice until the verdict (though maybe a bit harsher on the DS than the PSP) but the verdict completely destroyed it. Hell, both descriptions basically said "nice system but no games available yet", the final verdict should have been nothing but "wait until there's some games out, neither system warrants a purchase yet".

[Deguello]

That article really sucks with the insinuation that the DS has no third party support.  I mean, how many third party DS games does it take?  Or all these G4 people just completely unattached with reality?

[ruby_onix]

Re: controller vs stylus

When I was playing Metroid Prime on the Cube, there were quite a few times when I was so immersed that I became oblivious to the controller, and actually felt as if I had just put my left hand on top of my right arm to steady my aim. One one or two occasions, I accidentally looked down at my controller and forgot which buttons did what.

When you're playing with a stylus you're looking at it constantly. You can't get immersed in that same way while you're looking at your controller.

That said, I think that touchscreen has huge potential which isn't being realized yet. But what do you expect from the launch shipment? IMO, the games that Rick and others in the media are seeing in the pipeline that still aren't "innovative" yet were only just recently born as the sudden knee-jerk reaction to the DS's announcement.

Fortunately, nobody says that every DS game has to be innovative. They don't need to use every feature. Just the ones that improve the experience they want to deliver. Unfortunately, most people (developers included) don't seem to understand that.

So maybe the DS is doomed. Maybe third party support will wither. No more crappy movie licenced games. No more yearly-updated sports games. Oh boo hoo. If that happens, it will surely affect the DS's "success" in terms of marketshare numbers. But I see some great games on the DS's horizon. More than I see for the PSP, and the PSP was announced like six months earlier than the DS was, and has a much more "simple" philosophy.