Sony had to add that to the PSN user agreement because hackers have recently found out that Sony monitors and records *every single thing* that you do on your PS3. They also will scan any USB device and record it's contents. They log your television make and model - and they even pull your credit card information (including the security code), which is transferred back and forth *in plain text*. People (as in just about anyone) can even run some software on their computer to spoof their console ID and account information, to make it looks like their using someone else's console, so whatever they choose to do, the other person gets the blame. The network is pathetic. I was so excited to get a second PS3 for a really good deal (so I could use it as a Netflix streaming machine and Blu Ray player in the bedroom), but I don't ever want to go online with my PS3 again. Just so everyone is aware, this has nothing to do with the recent hacks on the console, they've *always* been spying on their customers, and their network has *always* been this huge unsecure mess, the information was just recently shared. I expect many a lawsuit to be filed against Sony soon.
You can find more information here (http://ps3crunch.com/call-privacy-modern-spyware-playstation-network.html) and here (http://ps3crunch.com/beware-credit-card-info-sony-psn-hacked.html). It's really quite scary.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 17, 2011, 11:26:37 PM
Um, this is pretty standard. And people agree to it. I don't expect a lawsuit (and any such lawsuit would easily fail) because people willingly accept these when signing up for PSN and patches (they usually just ignore the details and just click "Accept").
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 17, 2011, 11:31:55 PM
Really dude? That is not pretty standard. Sending your unencrypted credit card and personal information over a completely compromised network is far from standard. Also, you don't even have to be signed into PSN - the console itself phones home and sends info to Sony whether or not you're using PSN, just having your PS3 connected to your network in general lets them spy on you. Also, even if you don't agree to the new TOS, it doesn't change the fact that they've been doing this for years *without your permission*.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 18, 2011, 12:03:25 AM
Digitally transmitting unencrypted credit cards is a big no-no.
I had to send a request up to retrieve the card number used in a transaction by a customer who committed a theft (of another customer's property) on store property. After getting a subpoena from the PD, my boss retrieved the number, but couldn't e-mail it to me because it was unencrypted.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 18, 2011, 12:18:14 AM
Brandogg, do you have any actual proof of your accusations?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 12:47:03 AM
Yeah, I had to agree to that new Terms & Conditions before I could log onto the PSN tonight, which I thought was odd considering I'd already agreed to one when I first started my PS3 (note: this PS3 is a replacement for my original one, which died shortly after I transferred all its data to my new PS3). I skimmed through the agreement, and there's a lot of language in there pertaining to forbidding the user from running unauthorized programs or firmware on the PS3. I agreed to it because, frankly, I don't have a problem with agreeing to something I wasn't doing anyway. I only use my PS3 for legal purposes, unlikely apparently quite a few people. I question just how much real data Sony can pull from just knowing that I use an HD LCD Television when I play my PS3. Hooray for them? As for the Credit Card info issue, this is worrisome. Hopefully, Sony will take the advisement of this hacker and update their security protocols before stuff gets out of hand given that the scum of the internet have already shown just how much they love their "homebrew" with the custom firmware.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 12:53:23 AM
I created a PSN account without supplying any credit card info. I don't see how they could have it....
But now more than ever I'm determined never to pay one single dime on their damn PSN store. If I did then they WOULD have it, and odds are if they had it hackers and so on soon would as well. We already see how well Sony handles security of stuff that belongs to them, so why would we trust them with the security of stuff that belongs to us?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 18, 2011, 02:03:48 AM
TJ, I provided 2 links, and if you read more on that site, you can find out some more dirty tricks that can be done. I didn't want to post everything. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm telling you what is going on, or at least some of the stuff that I've found out recently.
I know in the other Sony thread I always took the side of the hackers (for the most part at least), but there is some potential evil going on now - but it's completely Sony's fault for leaving the system so vulnerable. I would recommend removing any CC info stored on your console, and only using PSN cards from the store if you plan on buying things online until they get a better system. It's not a matter of updating their security protocols, it's a matter of introducing[/] some security protocols. The names are blocked out in the chatlogs, but if you hang out in efnet you'll probably be able to figure out who user1, etc, is, and you'll know it's all legit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: S-U-P-E-R on February 18, 2011, 04:10:48 AM
I heard about the console ID spoofing, haven't heard about the unencrypted credit card data. Not like I bring my PS3 online anymore, though. :cool;
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: KDR_11k on February 18, 2011, 10:08:37 AM
If it's unencrypted you can just check the validity of the claim by running a packet sniffer on your home network (of course you need to have a way to see TCP traffic that isn't directed at your computer like using a hub or a mirroring port), then check for your credit card number in the data that got transfered.
CC numbers are of great interest to the law so I wouldn't be surprised if sending this report to the appropriate authority could get Sony into SERIOUS trouble. Any man in the middle could steal credit card information!
Additionally data collection like this is a serious offense in the EU and even the ToS cannot save them from EU data protection laws.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 10:57:02 AM
Is it just me or does it seem that Sony holds nothing but contempt for its consumers? The thing I don't understand is how there is such a thing as a Sony Fanboy, but apparently there are millions of them out there. To be a Sony Fanboy is to be a submissive servile masochist. Why would anyone want to be a fan of a company like that?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 11:09:10 AM
Is it just me or does it seem that Sony holds nothing but contempt for its consumers? The thing I don't understand is how there is such a thing as a Sony Fanboy, but apparently there are millions of them out there. To be a Sony Fanboy is to be a submissive servile masochist. Why would anyone want to be a fan of a company like that?
Do you really want to start a fight between fans of the various consoles by insulting them? There are tons of things I could accuse Nintendo Fanboys here of being, but I prefer to leave each to their own.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 11:13:24 AM
Is it just me or does it seem that Sony holds nothing but contempt for its consumers? The thing I don't understand is how there is such a thing as a Sony Fanboy, but apparently there are millions of them out there. To be a Sony Fanboy is to be a submissive servile masochist. Why would anyone want to be a fan of a company like that?
Do you really want to start a fight between fans of the various consoles by insulting them? There are tons of things I could accuse Nintendo Fanboys here of being, but I prefer to leave each to their own.
I would assume you are the one who just smited me. Right back at ya. I speak only the truth. If you took that as an insult it may be because the truth hurts. You know that Sony is an asshole company and treats their consumers like dirt. That's not an insult that's a fact.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 11:14:38 AM
I would assume you are the one who just smited me. Right back at ya. I speak only the truth. If you took that as an insult it may be because the truth hurts. You know that Sony is an asshole company and treats their consumers like dirt. That's not an insult that's a fact.
Actually, I didn't smite you at all. I haven't smited or applauded anyone in a couple weeks, not since I pulled TJ Spyke up temporarily into positive numbers again. My, someone's awfuly paranoid here. :@ I'm just saying, there's no reason to get snippy with fans of the other consoles. I may not like a lot of the things Sony does, but I really like their main console and I like its games far more than those out on Nintendo's console.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 11:44:28 AM
Well, feel free to smite me then since I wrongly accused you.... I wouldn't blame you.
BTW, I own a PS3. I do so grudgingly because its the only way to play certain 3rd party games which never come to the Wii. So it was either a PS3 or a 360, and the only reason I went with the PS3 is because its free to play online, but now with all this bullshit going on I'm now wondering if I should have gotten a 360 instead... oh well. But my point is in my case even though I own a PS3 I'm not a fanboy of it. Sony holds contempt for me, so I return it and so the feelings are mutual. I'm a PS3 owner, but not a PS3 fan.
ETA: when I get a chance I will applaud you to offset the smite.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 18, 2011, 12:13:16 PM
I wouldn't see this as contempt for their customers, more like laziness or incompetence. I highly doubt that the head of SCEI decided "hey, let's slack off huge on piracy protection and credit card security!" It is probably something that happened way down the chain of command. It might be the same stupidest programmer ever that made the system so easy to crack.
I don't think I've ever actually bought anything online using my PS3. They wouldn't ask for my credit card for any other reason, would they? I can't remember if I was ever asked to enter it. You don't think "boy I better be careful about this". You assume that this would be safe.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 18, 2011, 12:22:38 PM
I have downloaded tons of free content on PSN and have never been asked for credit card info, so I think they only ask for it when you purchase something (and you can always choose to just buy a PSN card instead).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 01:38:49 PM
I wouldn't see this as contempt for their customers, more like laziness or incompetence. I highly doubt that the head of SCEI decided "hey, let's slack off huge on piracy protection and credit card security!" It is probably something that happened way down the chain of command. It might be the same stupidest programmer ever that made the system so easy to crack.
Its just the latest in a long string of examples of Sony's attitude towards consumers. Other examples include installing rootkits on PCs without the user's consent or knowledge, exploding laptop batteries, saying things like consumers need to get a second job to pay for their $600 PS3s and I remember people complaining about the buttons on the first model of the PSP and they just shrugged it off saying "it is working as intended" even though it was a serious problem because the buttons were sticking.
So it can't just be laziness or incompetence, because there are hubris comments from high ranking Sony executives basically saying they don't give a **** about consumers and they should just deal with it because that's the way they made things and they refuse to change it. So you deal with it and get your second job to pay for it but otherwise you can just go to hell. That's what their attitude is.
So the fact they are now in 3rd place and facing all these problems helps make a good case that there really is such a thing as Karma.
ETA: I'm now convinced it is TJ Spyke who has been smiting me. If its a smite war he wants, its a smite war he shall have.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 18, 2011, 02:58:28 PM
Well I'm not a fan of Sony. I'm very much only a customer of their's. But I could also read a similar laundry list for Nintendo. The "it sucks but deal with it" attitude seems pretty familiar doesn't it? Over time Nintendo has grinded me down to where I went from being a Nintendo fan to just being a Nintendo customer.
But that is the risk one takes when they become a fan of a business whose primary motivation is to earn money from you. You run the same risk being a fan of a sports team or a band.
This is a ridiculous screw up on Sony's part and is utterly unacceptable. But they don't have the monopoly on unacceptable screw ups.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 18, 2011, 02:58:50 PM
Why is the "Sony Getting Hit Hard Lately" Thread still locked down? I guess this new PSN Sux thread will have to do.
As Sony finally begins to use their ban hammers against those who have jailbroke their consoles’, hackers have now found a way to Unban their PS3 console’s and ban legitimate users. Yes, you read that correctly. Hackers can now ban you in the process for doing absolutely nothing .
Website, PSX Scene is the first to report on user’s actually being able to do this.
From the forum post:
Hot off the press, and on the heels of Sony trying to find all the modded PS3 consoles, comes a funny story from SKFU’s Blog (an PS3 researcher/developer), along with a real way to UNBAN yourself, but watch out LEGIT PS3 owners, you could end up being banned by another user!
1) The bans are based on the users’ account and console ID’s.
2) We can modify all traffic sent and received by the PlayStation3
What if some skiddies start to modify their sent traffic to appear as another user and use backups?
The PSN servers would recognize the TOS violation and check the online user database for known connections based on the ID’s. The user and his consoles who really owns the ID’s would be banned.
Even a simple Windows application which goes through ALL ID’s may be possible. 24 hours and any console worldwide would be banned.
This should definitely be double-checked by SONY.
Now with these tool’s out, legit PSN users can be banned by the simple use of a program. We will not post the link to the forum post since we do not condone any use of these hacking tools at all on our site. But with the ablilty for hackers to ban and unban PS3 Consoles, what more can PSN user’s endure and what can Sony do about this now?
Picture Proof (http://i.imgur.com/rDr7n.png)
We have been getting reports from multiple people that this is legitimate.
[UPDATE]
The Forum post on PSX Scene has been removed however this was NOT our original source. We’ll keep you up to date on the findings on this latest hack and update later to confirm if this is real or not.
This **** is just getting waaaaay out of control. I have literally LOL'd myself out of my damn chair and onto the floor. Sony you are failing on so many levels right now it's just too funny to not laugh at. There are just no words......
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 03:11:06 PM
This **** is just getting waaaaay out of control. I have literally LOL'd myself out of my damn chair and onto the floor. Sony you are failing on so many levels right now it's just too funny to not laugh at. There are just no words......
So Sony is "failing on so many levels right now" because low-life scum hackers are showing their true colors as people unworthy of sympathy? :Q Sorry, but if the hackers ever had any justifiable ground to stand on, they shattered it when they announced that they could ban the consoles of innocent players (though they do need to have the console ID to do so). Go ahead, hackers: keep it up! Keep proving with your actions that Sony was completely justified in removing Other OS with your pirating and destroying the playing experience of people who just want to play their PS3s.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 18, 2011, 03:25:00 PM
I never said it was right of the hackers, I'm laughing at how quickly this **** is rolling uphill.
Sony takes away OtherOS, hackers crack the master keys. Sony throws around lawsuits, PSN gets hacked Sony starts banning people left and right, Hackers unban themselves and get innocents banned in the process
ontop of that Move isn't selling so well and software sales for PS3 are down and PSP is dead in the water (everywhere but Japan right now)
They are failing on so many levels, but the ones I'm mostly laughing at are the security ones and how they keep taunting the hacker community with a very public battle. The Wii got hacked, but you don't see Nintendo tossing around public lawsuits and trying to subpoena youtube and forum users because they know how to do it. Sony has let this get waaay to far out of hand and I am laughing my ass off at the whole situation.
Everything was fine up until OtherOS was removed and now all the **** has rolled up hill and parked itself on Sony's door step. Sony needs to get their **** together for the next console and put in several layers of security that don't all depend on the 1st one never being compromised. I'm not condoning anything that has happened, I just find it extremely hilarious that it is happening.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 03:32:51 PM
Although I don't condone them going after forum and youtube commentors (go after the people who you can prove are pirates, Sony), I honestly can't blame Sony. Self-righteous hackers are leading to a dangerous increase in piracy on an already-vulnerable platform. Nintendo can just ignore Wii piracy because all those Blue Ocean folks keep them swimming in money. Sony can't just stand by and allow this nonsense to continue when it is a direct threat to their sales, as they would appear even more weak and impotent to their competitors. If this were just homebrew applications and whatnot, fine...whatever. Enjoy your ability to play ripped SNES games on your PS3.
However, as I predicted when Holtz released the details of his hack to the world, the pirates and self-righteous hackers are using it to steal from Sony (which, I remind you, is why Sony removed Other OS to begin with: people were working on using it to steal from them). Something had to be done, and while it may not be ideal it may have been the only way to do it with the existing hardware. All Sony can do at this point is to try to minimize the damage and hold out until the next console generation when they can redesign and fortify the security measures. The hackers are the ones escalating this whenever Sony threatens to deprive them of their illegal access.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 04:08:25 PM
Why is the "Sony Getting Hit Hard Lately" Thread still locked down? I guess this new PSN Sux thread will have to do.
There was no point to locking it. Other threads just sprang up in its place (like this one), and now as soon as Morari shows up and starts posting the **** is going to hit the fan just like it did before.
But anyway, I do agree with you. I'm a moderate in this. I'm certainly not a Sony fanboy ass kisser, but on the other hand I don't like what the hackers are doing either. But it is fun to watch them both go at it. It reminds me of the game Bloodrayne when the Nazis are in this mine and the awaken these demon things which start attacking them. Its fun to watch two evil groups battle it out. Its just bad when innocents get caught in the crossfire, and unfortunately that's whats happening to some innocent people who are being wrongly banned and/or having their credit card info stolen. That's the real tragedy in all this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 18, 2011, 04:26:42 PM
I'm not thrilled with how Sony operates but now that we're talking about hackers being able to ban innocent users or steal credit card numbers, I can't side with them at all. Once you drag innocent people into this you cease to be rebels and become terrorists. No, this ain't murder or anything nearly that serious but you're still fucking with innocent people. This ain't sticking it to the man.
And realistically it never was. Piracy doesn't just hurt Sony, it hurts every developer making PS3 games and they had nothing to do with Sony taking away Other OS. The justification of all this has always been paper thin. These hackers are thugs and they're the worst kind of thugs because they're bullshitting self-righteous thugs.
The internet provides security from reprisal. You can be a jerk and a thief and get away with it and we see it all the time. The guy who spams every Youtube video's comments does so because he can insult someone without them punching him in the face. The piracy, the ability to steal credit card numbers or ban innocent users - that's all about the ability to jerk other people around without getting in trouble.
There are legitimate hacks and Sony are kind of dicks and the sheer incompetence they have shown here is somewhat amusing to me in a carwreck way. But we're also dealing with some real jerkoffs here and Sony has the right to defend themselves. Even if they never offered Other OS in the first place and never started the issue, I know there were people dedicating serious time to hacking the PS3 for nefarious purposes. It's ridiculous to think that hackers would have left everything alone if they didn't lose Other OS.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 18, 2011, 04:44:21 PM
I don't think anyone seriously thinks that the PS3 would have never been hacked if Sony hadn't taken OtherOS away, but taking it away the swatted the bees hive and took something that would have happened eventually and very quietly and anonymously in the shadiest places of the internet and made it a front page public matter.
You don't see Nintendo publicizing the hacks to the Wii or MS popularizing the techniques that are used to hack the 360. Sony's handling of this whole situation on the front page of tech blogs and magazines is where they have really made themselves look like fools because now everyone knows the PS3 is a glass house and all the windows are broken.
I can only laugh at everything that has taken place with the PS3 situation since OtherOS' removal and I'm sure that if Sony could go back to that boardroom meeting where that decision was made, they would have chose not to open Pandora's box and instead handle this situation in a much more quiet backroom NDA sort of way.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 05:18:15 PM
I don't know if taking Other OS helped the hackers along, but one thing is certain and that is that taking Other OS sure as hell didn't slow them down any. So I don't get how people are still saying Sony was right to take it out. What good did taking it out do them? it was right after they removed it that this all started. At best, removing Other OS had absolutely no effect whatsoever, but more than likely its what spurred things along more rapidly.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 18, 2011, 06:12:43 PM
I don't know if taking Other OS helped the hackers along, but one thing is certain and that is that taking Other OS sure as hell didn't slow them down any. So I don't get how people are still saying Sony was right to take it out. What good did taking it out do them? it was right after they removed it that this all started. At best, removing Other OS had absolutely no effect whatsoever, but more than likely its what spurred things along more rapidly.
I think the hackers/pirates themselves are showing that Sony was right to remove Other OS. Why did Sony remove Other OS? Because people were using it to bypass the PS3's security, hack their console, and were heading towards piracy. What happened relatively moments after Holtz released his hack that restored Other OS? Massive piracy (we already have confirmed information that Killzone 3 has been widely pirated), hackers hacking PSN and exposing sensitive information, and now hackers practically blackmailing Sony with the threat of banning innocent consoles of their choosing. Through their own actions, they have validated Sony's decision to remove Other OS. All they had to do to remain in "the Right" is stick with their homebrew and perform minor hacks in service of using Linux through Other OS. But no...they went and did everything that Sony said they would do if Other OS remained.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 18, 2011, 06:59:21 PM
As you said, it was the "hack that restored Other OS" that is the problem. It wasn't Other OS that was the problem, the problem was the hack that came after Sony removed it. If they never removed it that hack would not have appeared (or at least not as quickly as it did).
I think the majority of homebrewers (and even the pirates for that matter) may have just been content to do their business on Linux running on the PS3. You can run a lot of emulators and so on with Linux so yes the Other OS did allow for piracy on some level, but the hardware was gimped and it wasn't possible to pirate PS3 games or anything like that. But now its worse because now hackers have the full power of the system at their disposal, whereas before they could only pirate SNES games... but now they can pirate anything, and it was the removal of Other OS that caused this to occur.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 18, 2011, 09:59:43 PM
There was no point to locking it. Other threads just sprang up in its place (like this one), and now as soon as Morari shows up and starts posting the **** is going to hit the fan just like it did before.
There were several reasons for locking that thread - and it remains locked because afterward, multiple users created posts that were modded that spun out of that thread.
And I'll say this right now, Morari was not the only monkey to be slinging poo in that thread - it's quite unfair to point all the fingers at him. That's all I'm going to say publically on the subject and I recommend that everyone stop with the finger pointing. If you see someone making an aggressive post, report it. Even if the post is aimed at you, it's not an excuse to turn up the volume and attack back.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on February 18, 2011, 10:02:24 PM
All they had to do to remain in "the Right" is stick with their homebrew and perform minor hacks in service of using Linux through Other OS. But no...they went and did everything that Sony said they would do if Other OS remained.
This "they" that you speak of is made up of a number of different groups/individuals with very different motives.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 18, 2011, 10:58:45 PM
The removal of otherOS had nothing to do with piracy. The original exploit (that happened before otherOS was removed) had nothing to do with piracy. Hackers back then were trying to get passed the hypervisor so they could gain full RSX access under Linux, so that they could use the PS3 for the beast of a $400 machine that it was at the time. People in this thread are making (wrong) assumptions and just spewing crap with nothing to back it up. Also, this new information about PSN *has nothing to do with piracy* and has *nothing to do with jailbreaking your PS3* you don't even need a PS3 to achieve what these people have done. Stealing credit card numbers (there haven't been any accounts of this actually happening yet) is horribly wrong, and getting innocent users banned from PSN is horribly wrong too - BUT, the fact that this is (easily) possible NEEDS to be brought to everyone's attention, and Sony needs to take care of it. This wasn't done to be like "hey, look what we can do, we hacked into PSN and now we'll steal people's CC info," it was done to be like "hey, look how shitty Sony's network is, they want to treat their customers like ****, lets expose them for the crooks and idiots that they really are." Obviously Sony doesn't know **** about security, so if this information was not made public, then people would be getting ripped off left and right and there would be no explanation for how it was happening.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 19, 2011, 12:51:28 AM
All they had to do to remain in "the Right" is stick with their homebrew and perform minor hacks in service of using Linux through Other OS. But no...they went and did everything that Sony said they would do if Other OS remained.
This "they" that you speak of is made up of a number of different groups/individuals with very different motives.
Exactly. Hackers aren't some unified organization. There are good hackers and bad ones, but they are all acting independently as individuals. The hacking of the PS3 may have been done with good intentions, but now that its out there its going to end up used for every sort of purpose. Unfortunately some of those purposes are going to be malicious.... but that doesn't mean that's what Hotz intended.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: KDR_11k on February 19, 2011, 02:26:42 AM
This **** is just getting waaaaay out of control. I have literally LOL'd myself out of my damn chair and onto the floor. Sony you are failing on so many levels right now it's just too funny to not laugh at. There are just no words......
So Sony is "failing on so many levels right now" because low-life scum hackers are showing their true colors as people unworthy of sympathy? :Q Sorry, but if the hackers ever had any justifiable ground to stand on, they shattered it when they announced that they could ban the consoles of innocent players (though they do need to have the console ID to do so). Go ahead, hackers: keep it up! Keep proving with your actions that Sony was completely justified in removing Other OS with your pirating and destroying the playing experience of people who just want to play their PS3s.
Hackers aren't homogeneous. Anyone can be a hacker, regardless of motivation. There's still a huge gap between, say, Failoverflow and Russian mafia goons. Spamming is a part of organized crime these days and it requires hackers to build up the botnets.
The fact is that hackers are a part of life on the internet and you have to make sure your systems are protected against them. Blaming this on Failoverflow is retarded, this is a man in the middle move that doesn't even require full system access. What prevented this until now was security through obscurity which any security expert would tell you is suicide. Sony generally seems to be awful at handling security, even their old rootkit caused massive security issues that third party hackers could exploit. Microsoft may have a bad track record when it comes to the PC but at least they built up enough experience to secure XBL against **** like this.
All of these problems could have been avoided with a proper security design in first place and that is the problem. When Windows gets a self replicating worm raping systems left and right we expect MS to take the blame for letting this happen, now it's Sony's turn at getting the blame for inadequate security and relying on things that are unreliable.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 19, 2011, 10:04:03 AM
Exactly. This is SONY's fault. No one else's.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 19, 2011, 10:26:41 AM
Not true. While this is partly Sony's fault for not designing better security, a large part of the blame belongs to the people doing the hacking.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 19, 2011, 10:31:34 AM
Not true. While this is partly Sony's fault for not designing better security, a large part of the blame belongs to the people doing the hacking.
Yeah, seriously. It's like blaming the locksmith company when a robber breaks down a door using one of its locks. Sony should have built much stronger security all-around, but I get the feeling no amount of security would deter hackers like these with a God complex and little respect for the law.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 19, 2011, 11:34:54 AM
Not true. While this is partly Sony's fault for not designing better security, a large part of the blame belongs to the people doing the hacking.
Yeah, seriously. It's like blaming the locksmith company when a robber breaks down a door using one of its locks. Sony should have built much stronger security all-around, but I get the feeling no amount of security would deter hackers like these with a God complex and little respect for the law.
The fact that I've never heard of these things happening on Nintendo or Microsoft's platforms, despite the same community of hackers working on them, leads me to blame Sony. I am in no way letting the malicious hackers (a group that, as has been pointed out, does not include everyone involved) off the hook for what's happened overall, but this particular exploit is clearly all Sony's fault.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 19, 2011, 05:12:47 PM
¿
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 19, 2011, 06:30:16 PM
I think when they were designing the PS3 all of Sony's attention was focused on Blu-ray and everything else (such as security) took a back seat.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on February 19, 2011, 07:48:03 PM
Or they were thinking about security threats in 2006 and not realizing that cracking crypto can go pretty far in 4 and a half years.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 19, 2011, 08:41:18 PM
With the amount of PSN upgrades that they've done, they've had ample time to get their **** in line. These people had no intention of even trying to get people's CCN's, they just happened to be right there in front of them, along with people's PSN IDs and passwords, unencrypted. Sony fucked up BIG time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: that Baby guy on February 19, 2011, 09:32:55 PM
I could have sworn I read some actual literature about this and the threat was much, much lower than most were making it out to be. Essentially, PSN uses SSL, which is pretty secure, but not impossible to crack. Your credit card # is sent unencrypted beyond whatever means is involved in SSL, but it's still protected by that.
If you are someone who has used homebrew on your PS3 to install custom firmware, however, there's a loophole one must use in order to buy from the PSN store, and that loophole, IIRC, either prevents the use of SSL to transfer your data, can be modified by whomever supplies the custom firmware to reroute where your information is being sent, or both. In essence, yes, Sony does collect a lot of information about it's users using the PS3, but the security issues aren't such a big deal for non-homebrew users right now, aside from the fact that hackers have figured out how to ban a PS3, so long as they have the console's ID number.
At least, that's what a thread on NeoGAF was suggesting, which was what I read when some site reported the same information here, and someone responded saying the story didn't get the facts straight, and linked to the GAF thread, to which I no longer have a link.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 19, 2011, 09:46:18 PM
If there is a PS3 on a network, and you're on that same network, then you can get all the info you want. This was around before the PSN workaround that involves modified certificates, it just wasn't organized.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: KDR_11k on February 20, 2011, 02:51:42 AM
Not true. While this is partly Sony's fault for not designing better security, a large part of the blame belongs to the people doing the hacking.
Yeah, seriously. It's like blaming the locksmith company when a robber breaks down a door using one of its locks. Sony should have built much stronger security all-around, but I get the feeling no amount of security would deter hackers like these with a God complex and little respect for the law.
You'd blame the locksmith company if they failed to include some industry standard practices and that was the reason the security failed.
I could have sworn I read some actual literature about this and the threat was much, much lower than most were making it out to be. Essentially, PSN uses SSL, which is pretty secure, but not impossible to crack. Your credit card # is sent unencrypted beyond whatever means is involved in SSL, but it's still protected by that.
Sounds to me like the SSL isn't doing certificate checking so anybody can pretend to be Sony's server.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: that Baby guy on February 20, 2011, 04:04:43 AM
If there is a PS3 on a network, and you're on that same network, then you can get all the info you want. This was around before the PSN workaround that involves modified certificates, it just wasn't organized.
At this day and age, people using unsecured networks lack security in all sorts of internet related things. This isn't a good issue to be worried about when you specifically relate it to PSN, as open networks are security risks for just about anything you might send or receive. If someone's breaking into a secured network, that's another matter, but presuming most people have influence or control over the networks they connect to, this isn't something worth making a big deal about.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 20, 2011, 10:20:53 PM
That's just one way of going about it though. That's not the only way that Sony fucked up with this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 21, 2011, 06:18:41 PM
I've been warning my PS3-using friends/co-workers about this little war between hackers and Sony, and they've been pretty concerned about leaving their information up there for the time being. I assume that Sony can fix this security hole with a firmware/netcode update?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Nick DiMola on February 21, 2011, 09:04:48 PM
I've been reading along with some of the debate here over this topic, as well as the overall case, and I decided it was worth writing about over at PixlBit. If anyone cares to read my full thoughts, the article is here (http://www.pixlbit.com/features?action=showFeature&featureId=315&t=a_question_of_morality_console_hacking).
Long story short, I support the hackers who unlocked the root key of the console, but I strongly disapprove of the ones who are exploiting PSN's weakness for evil. In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with console hacking and it has led to some really fantastic homebrew applications. Piracy is a nasty side effect of console hacking, but I'm not sure there are a significant number of people actually engaging in console hacking, with an even smaller portion of them actually pirating games.
Sony has handled the entire situation quite poorly and surely the consumers will be the ones who are hurt by all of this in the long run.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 21, 2011, 09:07:52 PM
Long story short, I support the hackers who unlocked the root key of the console, but I strongly disapprove of the ones who are exploiting PSN's weakness for evil. In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with console hacking and it has led to some really fantastic homebrew applications. Piracy is a nasty side effect of console hacking, but I'm not sure there are a significant number of people actually engaging in console hacking, with an even smaller portion of them actually pirating games.
Sony has handled the entire situation quite poorly and surely the consumers will be the ones who are hurt by all of this in the long run.
Every bit of this is right.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 22, 2011, 02:01:08 AM
I wouldn't recommend talking to people through the PS3 itself about said hacking because apparently Sony monitors (or can monitor) conversations on there and even if you aren't promoting hacking, just talking about it with someone might get Sony's attention and they could ban you or something. Not saying that would necessarily happen, but its a possibility so why risk it?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: KDR_11k on February 22, 2011, 06:46:55 AM
Hell, why not? Write a news story about it if it does happen and get tons of publicity, you're running a news website!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 23, 2011, 01:29:07 PM
And the drama continues...... Story and summary: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26100951&postcount=1 Site of hacker in question: http://grafchokolo.com/
long story short, Sony threatens HV hacker Graf_Chokolo to to stop hacking and sends out DCMA violation letters. Graf_Chokolo tells Sony to Back off or he will release everything he knows about the Hyper Visor and the Hyper Visor process so that all other devs can continue to reverse engineer everything. Sony sends German Police to heis house to cease all his computers. Graf_Chokolo then releases all he knows to the internet with instructions to spread it as far and wide as possible.
My Question is, Who is more fucked up here? Is HV stuff gonna screw Sony's anti-hacking regiment up or is Graf_Chokolo screwed for the way he publicly admits to handling this situation (threat and then follow through)? Is that considered blackmail?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 01:36:20 PM
I don't know German law, but I am pretty sure he could be arrested if had done that here in the US for trying to basically blackmail Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 01:41:48 PM
Is HV stuff gonna screw Sony's anti-hacking regiment up or is Graf_Chokolo screwed for the way he publicly admits to handling this situation (threat and then follow through)? Is that considered blackmail?
Yes, it will probably hinder Sony's efforts to curtail the thieves from picking apart any new security measures. And yes, I would definitely consider that blackmail under U.S. interpretation. He was threatening to release sensitive information if Sony didn't stand down from trying to stop his illegal ways. I don't know how German law would deal with that, but the fact that he did release that sensitive information doesn't help his case. I hope he rots in jail.
Once again, praise the increasingly lovable hackers and the way they are peacefully pursuing their "homebrew" with blackmail.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 02:04:25 PM
He wasn't demanding financial gain or anything like that from Sony. He just told them to "back off". It may be more self defense than black mail.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 02:10:44 PM
Once again, praise the increasingly lovable hackers and the way they are peacefully pursuing their "homebrew" with blackmail.
Let's see... Sony threatens guy with fines and jailtime, that's good. Guy threatens Sony back with releasing information... and that's bad?
Yes, they are. Sony was completely within their legal right to pursue legal action against him (a known hacker, not innocent by any stretch of the imagination), and if he had stopped his illegal activity DMCA letters might have been as far as this went. He responds with threatening to increase malicious hacking across the internet by releasing his information if Sony continues pursuing their legal right, with the intention of harming the company. Sony sends in the German police to protect their intellectual property. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 02:17:26 PM
He did not respond with a threat to increase malicious hacking. He responded with the threat (promise?) to tell everyone what he knows. What other people do with his information isn't his fault. He has absolutely no responsibility or obligation to Sony to keep his knowledge secret.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 02:27:56 PM
He did not respond with a threat to increase malicious hacking. He responded with the threat (promise?) to tell everyone what he knows. What other people do with his information isn't his fault.
And we're back at this old argument. We've been down this road before, so I'll just say that I find that notion extremely irresponsible. This is a war between malicious hackers and Sony. You all keep insisting upon that distinction. I find it laughable that someone should not be held responsible if they put information out that aides the malicious hackers, just because it was posted on the internet. It's like saying that someone who posts the exact blueprints of the White House on the internet isn't responsible for terrorist groups using that information to penetrate and assault the building (an extreme example to be sure, but that's the power of information on the internet. You can't guarantee that only the people who will use that information for "good" will see it). Gotta love the internet, where apparently no one is accountable and everything is apparently permitted.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 02:39:55 PM
Can't speak for Germany, but here in America, we have good ol' Freedom of Speech.
I guess, by your way of thinking, the creator of, say, the Anarchist Cookbook should be jailed because he's releasing information that someone may potentially use one day to cause harm?
I disagree. It's a horrible and scary thought process.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 02:48:24 PM
Can't speak for Germany, but here in America, we have good ol' Freedom of Speech.
I guess, by your way of thinking, the creator of, say, the Anarchist Cookbook should be jailed because he's releasing information that someone may potentially use one day to cause harm?
I disagree. It's a horrible and scary thought process.
I believe in Freedom of Speech, but I also believe that with that freedom comes the duty of using it responsibly. There's good reason that we have clauses in the U.S. Freedom of Speech that implement limits such as preventing someone from...say...(to cite an old cliche) shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater.
The Anarchist Cookbook was long before my time, but I can guarantee you that if someone were to write a new book these days that detailed more modern versions of such contents, it would never see publication due to public outcry and legal ramifications. But if it did and a terrorist group released a video with them holding the book after committing some mass attrocity, that company (and to a lesser extent the writer) would probably be held legally accountable and potentially charged with treason.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, and leave this argument peacefully at rest.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 23, 2011, 03:01:05 PM
I don't think freedom of speech has ever covered blackmail. An employee of Mastercard could quite easily gain access to my credit card number. He could then phone me up and threaten to release it publicly unless I paid him not to. Does he have the right to tell everyone this information about me that is supposed to be private and can cause me all sorts of problems? He is also are specifically threatening me with this information. "Give in to my demands or I create problems for you."
Slander is also not covered by freedom of speech. There are certain restrictions that apply when one's speech can specifically harm an individual.
This isn't like someone releasing a book giving tips for breaking security systems. That's potentially damaging information but it is generic and does not target a specific individual. But it wouldn't be right to release a book specifically on how to break into Bob Johnson of Omaha's house. There is a difference between general potentially damaging information and specific information risking damage on a specific individual.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 04:37:44 PM
This is not blackmail, not even close.
Also, who is to say that graf_chokolo has actually done anything illegal? He hasn't been arrested, no files have been charged. He told Sony to get off of his back, or he would release what he knows, they seized his computers, so he did what he said he would do. Also, none of this information does ANYTHING, but help people hack THEIR OWN PS3s - the same thing that George Hotz did. Turns out Sony might be going after good ol' geohot, graf, and others because they've uncovered something Sony didn't want anyone to know (besides the lack of security and spying on every single thing you do on your PS3, which is illegal) - Sony is breaking the law simply by releasing their firmware updates without including the source code used in creating their .sprx files (http://geohotgotsued.blogspot.com/2011/02/first-round-of-donations-is-closed.html?showComment=1298348894591#c5896193471787448715) - which is something no one would have known about without geohot's jailbreak.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 04:49:27 PM
He illegally hacked the PS3, and when Sony did their legal right to tell him to stop he threatened to release it. When they did the right thing and get the authorities involved, he decided to be a punk (I almost typed something else, but keep this clean) and released it anyways. Sony hasn't done anything wrong (despite your claim Brandogg), while this guy can rightly be arrested or sued soon.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 04:53:05 PM
Also, who is to say that graf_chokolo has actually done anything illegal?
We'll see what happens. graf_chokolo's actions are at best legally gray, and he didn't help his case by issuing threats against Sony (and he hurt it even more by actually releasing the information). I don't think the German Police Department would have complied with Sony if they didn't have charges they could file (and perhaps are filing) against this hacker.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 23, 2011, 05:18:12 PM
It's like saying that someone who posts the exact blueprints of the White House on the internet isn't responsible for terrorist groups using that information to penetrate and assault the building.
Um... They wouldn't be responsible. The terrorist group would. Your idea that blame must always be assigned elsewhere is horrifying. Not only horrifying because it is wrong and dangerous, but because it seems to becoming a more popular line of thought everyday. You should take a step back from thing and really evaluate just what you're saying. Don't fall prey to the boogieman concepts that corporations and governments throw out. Doing so will only ensure that they remain unchallenged while stepping on top of you your peers.
Your continual use of terrorism in your examples shows that you've already drank WAY too much of the propaganda Kool-Aid. I can only hope that you don't drown in it and pull everyone else down with you. :(
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 05:20:40 PM
Um... They wouldn't be responsible. The terrorist group would. Your idea that blame must always be assigned elsewhere is horrifying. Not only horrifying because it is wrong and dangerous, but because it seems to becoming a more popular line of thought everyday. You should take a step back from thing and really evaluate just what you're saying. Don't fall prey to the boogieman concepts that corporations and governments throw out. Doing so will only ensure that they remain unchallenged while stepping on top of you your peers.
Your continual use of terrorism in your examples shows that you've already drank WAY too much of the propaganda Kool-Aid. I can only hope that you don't drown in it and pull everyone else down with you. :(
Oh good, Morari's here. ::) Mods, you might as well close this thread now and get it over with, because it's all downhill from here and you're just going to have to do it eventually anyway.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 05:26:10 PM
Sony sends in the German police to protect their intellectual property. That seems pretty clear-cut to me.
A clear-cut waste of public resources. Where are the police when children are being molested? Those are the homes that should be raided. Not someone who just wants to be able to use Linux on hardware which he owns and paid for. At this point does it even matter anyway? I'm sure whatever info he released is small potatoes and could have been easily duplicated by someone else anyway. Geohotz already did the real damage.
Actually, they did. They took away a feature (Other OS) which was advertised, promised, and paid for by consumers. By taking it away they committed theft. The E.U. seems to care a good deal about consumer rights, so...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 05:29:38 PM
A clear-cut waste of public resources. Where are the police when children are being molested?
Perhaps, but it's not up to us to decide how the German Police Department allocates its resources. Furthermore, police departments routinely have different divisions for dealing with specific types of crime. Software crime such as this would not be covered by people investigating social disturbances, and vice-versa. Can you perhaps show evidence that such an act was being commited while this raid was being conducted, and that the police knew about it and ignored it? Hell, can you show evidence that other larger crimes were being committed during this raid and ignored, beyond statistics? Contrary to popular belief, the role of the police is not to prevent crimes (that would be pretty much impossible), but to arrest perpetrators and punish them when they are aware of them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 23, 2011, 05:35:03 PM
Contrary to popular belief, the role of the police is not to prevent crimes (that would be pretty much impossible), only arrest perpetrators and punish them when they are aware of them.
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for though? You not only want to prevent crimes, you seem to want to outright punish people for thought crimes. You want to ban material that may be used to commit crimes by independent groups. You want to sacrifice anything resembling freedom for the illusion of safety.
And FYI... It isn't exactly the police department's job to punish criminals either. That's for the courts.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 05:41:35 PM
Consumer rights, open source, Linux, etc. are all popular things in the E.U. I wouldn't be surprised if the courts ruled against Sony in this matter. Remember how the E.U. courts ruled against Microsoft for being a monopoly whereas the U.S. didn't really give a **** about it? The DMCA doesn't apply in Europe.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 05:42:46 PM
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for though? You not only want to prevent crimes, you seem to want to outright punish people for thought crimes. You want to ban material that may be used to commit crimes by independent groups.
I don't believe I've argued for any bans (I've said that the public would not allow certain things such as the publication of a handbook in how to blow up buildings), just that when an act is committed using such material that those who leaked it cannot say they do not share responsibility. What the hackers are currently doing is already illegal, though it would be an illegality I could live with if they weren't also passing that information on tacitly to pirates and those that would use the information to do Sony (and its consumers) harm. Then they have the gall to claim that they bear no responsbility for what they have unleashed.
And please, Morari, I know how much you love your 1984/Brave New World Conspiracy Theorizing, but I've only ever argued against actual crimes perpetrated by actual hackers (not "thought crimes").
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 05:44:43 PM
Actually, they did. They took away a feature (Other OS) which was advertised, promised, and paid for by consumers. By taking it away they committed theft. The E.U. seems to care a good deal about consumer rights, so...
Under that logic, publishers of MMO's could get in trouble when they shut down the games because consumers are left with nothing more than coasters. Should EA get in trouble when they shut down servers for their games? The online play was advertised, promised, and the main reason some people buy the game. All features for systems and games are subject to be removed at any time.
Morari, people can be punished for possessing and giving out info that is not theirs. Chozo, they go after people when they have knowledge of them breaking the law (like this guy did). Sony will not get in trouble for anything in this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 05:45:11 PM
Consumer rights, open source, Linux, etc. are all popular things in the E.U. I wouldn't be surprised if the courts ruled against Sony in this matter. Remember how the E.U. courts ruled against Microsoft for being a monopoly whereas the U.S. didn't really give a **** about it? The DMCA doesn't apply in Europe.
We'll see. I was under the impression that the only major governing body that didn't sign into the DMCA was China, and that was because of the massive piracy that happens there.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 05:49:27 PM
The DMCA basically took treaties of the World Intellectual Property Organization (which almost every country in the world is a member of) and ratified it into US law. Europe has something similar in the Copyright Directive, which appears to be even more restrictive when it comes to copyrights since it has fewer exceptions.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 06:15:38 PM
Under that logic, publishers of MMO's could get in trouble when they shut down the games because consumers are left with nothing more than coasters.
But here's the thing: if you buy an MMO you don't own the intellectual property of it, but you DO own the physical CD, right? So you can use it as a coaster or frisbee or whatever if you want to, right? Because you own it. Now, I look at the PS3 thing the same way. You don't own the intellectual property of it, but you DO own the hardware which you bought. So if you want to use it as a paperweight or doorstop you can, even though its not designed for that purpose. But there are people who want to use the hardware as Linux computers. So why can't they? You can hook a keyboard and mouse on it, install Linux, and you have a powerful and inexpensive personal computer which you can use to do anything you would on any other computer. That was feature actually promoted and supported by Sony with Other OS.
Sony may removed Other OS, but some people found a way to bring it back. I don't see the problem with it unless its being done for piracy, which isn't always the case because being able to use your PS3 as a computer has a really strong appeal and there's nothing malicious about that in and of itself.
Like I said you don't own the IP, but you own the physical hardware. You can do whatever you want with it....
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Guitar Smasher on February 23, 2011, 07:32:42 PM
Actually, they did. They took away a feature (Other OS) which was advertised, promised, and paid for by consumers. By taking it away they committed theft. The E.U. seems to care a good deal about consumer rights, so...
Under that logic, publishers of MMO's could get in trouble when they shut down the games because consumers are left with nothing more than coasters. Should EA get in trouble when they shut down servers for their games? The online play was advertised, promised, and the main reason some people buy the game. All features for systems and games are subject to be removed at any time.
Morari, people can be punished for possessing and giving out info that is not theirs. Chozo, they go after people when they have knowledge of them breaking the law (like this guy did). Sony will not get in trouble for anything in this.
That's entirely different. Online games are service-based - they require the publisher to maintain a server. When you buy a game featuring an online component, it's implied that at some future date the service will be discontinued.
Conversely, the OtherOS feature is not service-based. Once you purchase the hardware, there is no dependence on the manufacturer to maintain a service. The functionality is implied to be permanent. A more reasonable comparison would be something like if Nintendo suddenly decided to cutoff one of your controller ports.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 07:42:54 PM
Some of the arguments in here are so ridiculous it's not even funny, and it really is scary the way some people are willing to bend over for corporations. Imagine how ripped off the people that paid $600 for their console at launch, that was designed to play PS3 games (all of them) and run Linux (without letting Sony take it away, that was never advertised), and then a couple years later, they're forced to choose between the two. Again, as I pointed it, it seems more like Sony is trying to cover their ass, which is why no charged have been filed. All their doing is sending the internet police (and the real police) to shut people down that they are afraid of, because they can get Sony into some big trouble. Look at all the of the legal battles Sony has been in recently (and lost, or settled), it's pathetic. They lost to Bleem! but sued them out of existence so they still got to put a notch on their bedpost for that one. They lost to Connectix, but then bought the company and disintegrated it (actually, I've read that they ported CVGS to the PS3, and that's how PS1 games run, could be BS though), so they got to put another notch. They had to stop putting rootkits on their CDs, etc (which is a crime), and now they're (allegedly, basically proven to be) putting rootkits on the PS3 (among the other questionable-to-illegal things mentioned in the post I linked to before). It's ridiculous, but people are sitting here saying they have every right to do what they want with YOUR bought and paid for hardware.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 07:48:54 PM
And you have made it clear you support hackers and other shady people, but I will leave it at that because everyone knows you will never change your mind. This just happened, so it's very likely charges will be filed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 07:51:05 PM
Brandogg - don't forget Sony shutting down LikSang... :(
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 23, 2011, 07:57:38 PM
Actually, they did. They took away a feature (Other OS) which was advertised, promised, and paid for by consumers. By taking it away they committed theft. The E.U. seems to care a good deal about consumer rights, so...
Under that logic, publishers of MMO's could get in trouble when they shut down the games because consumers are left with nothing more than coasters. Should EA get in trouble when they shut down servers for their games? The online play was advertised, promised, and the main reason some people buy the game. All features for systems and games are subject to be removed at any time.
I'm not sure if the MMO analogy is really a proper way of looking at it. For MMOs (and online functions of video games), it is generally assumed that the plug will eventually be pulled due to the financial resources required to maintain them, especially if the game no longer becomes profitable to maintain.
Pulling the plug on OtherOS is different, because at the time it was a feature of the console. One that does not have an overhead cost other than the initial investment to create the option of using it. I believe a better analogy would be disabling PS1 Playback via firmware update if they found there was an exploit in the PS1 emulation that allowed hacking of their consoles. They are taking away core features of the device that no longer costs them any more after the initial investment.
I honestly don't think there is any proper analogy to what is happening right now.
It's interesting how Sony is using the reverse model of what the music industry has historically done when suing people. I've read countless articles on the lawsuits that actually went to court against people who downloaded and got sued by RIAA, and the general consensus of the comments section was "Why are they suing the people downloading? Shouldn't they be suing the person who is uploading the songs on torrents and seeding the file?"
Sony decides to use this specific approach by suing the guy that is the source of what empowers the people to pirate games, and they get lambasted with bad press and a negative perception. I guess there's no go way for a company to pursue legal options without looking like a monster picking on the little guy. I'm more concerned about the implications of this case, and the possibility of setting a precedent in courts regarding how much you actually own the console you purchase.
I'm not completely privy to the source of who started what, but I thought I read somewhere that OtherOS was disabled by Sony when GeoHot had just released videos of him playing around with the PS3 back-end stuff (don't know the specifics), but had said he would not be releasing info on how he hacked the PS3. I wonder if Sony would have grounds to take him to court if he had just posted videos of the new hack instead of releasing a how-to.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 07:57:38 PM
Other OS is a feature I would make use of if it were available, and for the record I'm absolutely not a pirate. The people who are pirates don't give a **** about Other OS. All they want to do is pirate games, period. They don't care about installing Linux or using the PS3 as a personal computer. It pisses me off that so many people refuse to accept that there is an appeal to using the Other OS feature for legal purposes. The PS3 is supposed to be a supercomputer, but what good is it if you can't make use of it? Having Linux installed allows for it to run computer software to do all sorts of things which have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with piracy or even gaming for that matter. NASA and the airforce were using clusters of them for advanced computing purposes. It has nothing to do with piracy and everything to do with being able to use the PS3 as a powerful computer which it was marketed for at one time.
The PS3 has a cell processor, USB ports, ethernet, wifi, an internal hard drive, a blu-ray drive, etc. You can hook a keyboard and mouse up to it. You can hook up a printer or a scanner or pretty much anything just like with a PC. There's a lot it has going for it that makes it an appealing Linux PC. So why is it so difficult for so many to accept that this isn't all just about piracy?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 07:58:17 PM
I really have to wonder, on this Nintendo-centric site, how many of the hacker supporters here would be quite so supporting if the situation were different and it was Nintendo under fire from hackers/pirates after years of financial difficulties.
Regardless, it's clear we aren't going to agree on such matters. It's best to just agree to disagree and consider the issue on hold until we receive word of further developments. I'd rather not see this spiral into yet another thread filled with increasingly venomous language, forcing the mods to close it down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 07:59:18 PM
What shady people do I support? If anything, Sony is the "shady" person here - they're like a Peeping Tom hiding inside your CDs and game consoles. Please read the info that I linked to - it's also pretty funny that Sony is getting sued to the exact same thing that they're suing George Hotz for. I don't necessarily support hackers in general (although your definition of hacker probably differs from mine), but I do support people who buy a product and feel they have the right to use that product as they please. Sony shutting down Lik-Sang sucked too (I was gonna mention that actually, thanks UB), I remembered I was going to order something from there several years ago, but then found out the site was wiped off of the internet.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 23, 2011, 07:59:30 PM
Isn't that exactly what you're arguing for though? You not only want to prevent crimes, you seem to want to outright punish people for thought crimes. You want to ban material that may be used to commit crimes by independent groups.
I don't believe I've argued for any bans (I've said that the public would not allow certain things such as the publication of a handbook in how to blow up buildings), just that when an act is committed using such material that those who leaked it cannot say they do not share responsibility.
You very clearly implied that you would side right along with the public. You don't like people having blueprints of the White House, you don't like counter-culture groups publishing books, and you don't like bored kids disassembling and reverse engineering their bought and paid-for consoles. But why? Because someone, somewhere might do something with it that you're not supposed to agree with. It's precisely because the public can be so easily distracted with this lurking fear that we now have things like airport x-rays and the DMCA.
Never mind though. I suppose that Remington should be held liable for every gun wound in the world too, right? Or how about we start suing Chevrolet for car accidents? Providing a tool and using a tool are not the same, nor is responsibility shared between the two actions.
Regardless, it's clear we aren't going to agree on such matters. It's best to just agree to disagree and consider the issue on hold until we receive word of further developments.
Ah, the merciful cry of a losing debate...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 23, 2011, 08:00:36 PM
I agree with Guitar Smasher that a service-based function like an MMO that one has to pay a subscription fee for is different than a standalone feature. And in the case where an MMO is cancelled I feel the consumer has a right to a refund regarding any unused time left on their subscription. You have six months left on your account? You should get refunded six months worth of fees.
The Other OS disabling brings up the different hot topic of the seller's right to a remote off switch. Right now I am certain that Nintendo could remotely brick your Wii if they really wanted to. The way electronics connect to the internet and make use of patches and updates this sort of thing is easy to do. Same with downloaded material. Here is an early example of it. I don't think Sony has the right to do that. I don't think the extent of hacking that has gone on since then is justifiable but I don't think Sony has any right to remotely disable features of any product we bought from them. They also should not be allowed to delete from my hard drive any online content I have purchased legitmately or brick my PS3. They are allowed to disable the online services they provide however. I don't expect the PSN Store to stick around forever for example. But 50 years from now if my PS3 still runs I should be able to pop a game in there and play.
But there is all that talk about whether you buy the product or a licence to use the product. I say you buy the product and any suggestion otherwise is revisionist history bullshit designed to screw the consumer. There is a clear conflict of interest in the remote off switch. If the seller can remotely break the product you buy from them they can force you to buy a replacement. To me it's no different than if a car manufacturer put in a killswitch in a car that permanently destroyed the engine after so many miles. Such a thing would unanimously be considered a violation of consumer rights. However the internet is for some reason considered different so the opinion on this matter is not so universal.
These days we move more and more into cloud based applications. While there are benefits to it the fact that it puts more and more of the functionality in the hands of the seller scares me. This is a topic that is only going to become more and more relevant over the years. I like the isolation and control that self-contained devices have. It protects me from the incompetence or corruption of others. I like the freedom of having control over what I buy after I have purchased it. We are losing that control and the Other OS disabling is an example of that and if anything the reaction to it from hackers will only make things worse as it puts Sony in a more sympathetic light. Sony were the bad guys. Now that we're talking piracy and disabling innocent user accounts and stealing credit cards the hackers look like the bad guys. Misuse of hacking gives Sony ammunition for the argument that consumers should have less control over the products they buy. It only helps the "you buy a licence to the product" ideology.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 08:01:06 PM
I really have to wonder, on this Nintendo-centric site, how many of the hacker supporters here would be quite so supporting if the situation were different and it was Nintendo under fire from hackers/pirates after years of financial difficulties.
Linux has been possible on Nintendo hardware for years. I never seen anyone complaining about it on here, and why would they? Piracy and Linux Homebrew are two entirely different things.
As for piracy, I've NEVER seen one person on here (except possibly Morari) try to justify piracy. If someone wants to hack their Wii or GC to turn it into a PC or Multimedia center, fine. Why should I care? Why should even Nintendo care? But if they are pirating GC or Wii games then its a problem.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 08:02:06 PM
broodwars - If you've ever noticed me on these forms, I'm very outspoken against piracy - games, music, movies or otherwise. Anyone remember the voting thread with Mother 3 in it? Still think that was bull crap.
But I'm wise enough to know that hacking does not equal piracy. Hacking can bring us things like Game Genies, Game Sharks, Action Replays, Freeloaders, Modded Panasonic Q's that play US games, the Homebrew channel on the Wii that let me import Another Code R, etc., etc. These are all things I support. Because they're not piracy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 23, 2011, 08:06:30 PM
I really have to wonder, on this Nintendo-centric site, how many of the hacker supporters here would be quite so supporting if the situation were different and it was Nintendo under fire from hackers/pirates after years of financial difficulties.
Regardless, it's clear we aren't going to agree on such matters. It's best to just agree to disagree and consider the issue on hold until we receive word of further developments. I'd rather not see this spiral into yet another thread filled with increasingly venomous language, forcing the mods to close it down.
I don't think there are any real sympathizers for people who pirate the games here. I think it's a question of whether or not you believe the people who released the hack did so with malicious intentions, and whether or not you think the actions Sony have taken so far are reasonable in how they've responded to what they consider threats. If you think about it, the Wii has been hackable easily for some time, and it's not hard to find out how to pirate games for it. Nintendo has responded by largely ignoring it and silently releasing firmware updates to disable them. It's obvious based on Sony's response and the news that followed it that the breach in their system poses much more of a threat than just pirating games, otherwise I imagine they would have adopted the same strategy as Nintendo or Microsoft.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 23, 2011, 08:06:41 PM
But there is all that talk about whether you buy the product or a licence to use the product.
Actually, that argument was settled a long time ago, and the law's view on it has not changed. When you buy a product, you are purchasing a license to use that product, not the product itself. This is why it is a copyright violation to then take that product and post its data online, or any other variety of things you can do with it outside of Fair Use. Trust me, my father is an executive at a Software Backup company, and I get an earful on this very topic every time I bring up the issue of video games and digital distribution. I don't care for it myself, since I like the idea that if I'm holding a disc the contents on it are mine, but that's the law as it is currently written.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 08:07:55 PM
Why doesn't Sony sue themselves for selling CD-Rs and DVD-Rs, etc, which are used for piracy in every corner of the world? They also sell the burners that people use to create bootleg movies or warez copies of computer and console video games? What George Hotz and graf_chokolo have done have not helped pirates in any way. If you take geohot's PS3 3.55 firmware patch and installed it on your PS3, it absolutely does NOT allow you to run pirated PS3 games. It lets you install homebrew software, and explicitly keeps you out of the realm of piracy. What other people have done with his information (not his software) have allowed more questionable things to be done. As far as I know, graf_chokolo hasn't released...anything, except for information. He's helped some people build some tools, but he's never released a custom firmware or a backup manager or anything like that. A lot of people are making comments here simply to argue against other members here, and it's obvious that they are far removed from the actual situation, and in fact, have no idea what they're talking about.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 23, 2011, 08:08:14 PM
As for piracy, I've NEVER seen one person on here (except possibly Morari) try to justify piracy.
Just to be clear. I've never condoned piracy. I do however condemn the majority of anti-piracy measures. Nothing will ever stop pirates from being pirates. Increasing DRM and walled-garden environments only hurt legitimate consumers. The end result is a product that is worth less and is now more troublesome to use than the stripped-down, cracked, pirated version.
This isn't about piracy though. This is about custom firmwares. This is about a company with a horribly long track record of fucking over their customers. This is about a broken system that allows entities like Sony to do whatever they like with no regard to common sense of individual ethics.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 08:12:32 PM
But there is all that talk about whether you buy the product or a licence to use the product.
Actually, that argument was settled a long time ago, and the law's view on it has not changed. When you buy a product, you are purchasing a license to use that product, not the product itself. This is why it is a copyright violation to then take that product and post its data online, or any other variety of things you can do with it outside of Fair Use. Trust me, my father is an executive at a Software Backup company, and I get an earful on this very topic every time I bring up the issue of video games and digital distribution. I don't care for it myself, since I like the idea that if I'm holding a disc the contents on it are mine, but that's the law as it is currently written.
That applies to software, not hardware.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 23, 2011, 08:16:21 PM
But there is all that talk about whether you buy the product or a licence to use the product.
Actually, that argument was settled a long time ago, and the law's view on it has not changed. When you buy a product, you are purchasing a license to use that product, not the product itself. This is why it is a copyright violation to then take that product and post its data online, or any other variety of things you can do with it outside of Fair Use. Trust me, my father is an executive at a Software Backup company, and I get an earful on this very topic every time I bring up the issue of video games and digital distribution. I don't care for it myself, since I like the idea that if I'm holding a disc the contents on it are mine, but that's the law as it is currently written.
Yes, but then you have things like it being legal to jailbreak iphones and put custom firmware and programs on those. Other than one being a phone and the other being a video game console, it's difficult to distinguish a difference between the two, and since one is legal, I find it hard to believe that it should be illegal to do essentially the same thing with your video game console.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 08:17:59 PM
What shady people do I support? If anything, Sony is the "shady" person here - they're like a Peeping Tom hiding inside your CDs and game consoles. Please read the info that I linked to - it's also pretty funny that Sony is getting sued to the exact same thing that they're suing George Hotz for. I don't necessarily support hackers in general (although your definition of hacker probably differs from mine), but I do support people who buy a product and feel they have the right to use that product as they please. Sony shutting down Lik-Sang sucked too (I was gonna mention that actually, thanks UB), I remembered I was going to order something from there several years ago, but then found out the site was wiped off of the internet.
The allegations you posted, with no proof. Pretty much the only good hackers are the ones who discover these problems and then quietly report them to the company so they can deal with it, they don't tell people how to do it since a large percentage of people who do it will use it for piracy. Hell, maybe Hotz would have even been hired by Sony if he had just e-mailed them and explained he discovered this stuff.
Sony didn't shut down Lik Sang, Lik Sang shut themselves down rather than try and appeal the lawsuit they lost (the UK court ruled Lik Sang broke the law by shipping PSP's to the UK before it was released there).
On a side note, the guy who wrote The Anarchist Cookbook has apologized many time since he wrote the book and has denounced it since he admits it was a bad idea. The company that currently owns the rights to it also stopped printing it because they said it had no positive social reasons to keep it in print.
Brandogg, OtherOS is software so it does apply.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 23, 2011, 08:21:54 PM
But the hackers have found a way to use Linux without Other OS. Other OS is software, but its gone. Sony removed it themselves. Whatever software is used now to install it is therefore not made or owned by Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 08:50:42 PM
The "allegations" that I posted - the proof is in the pudding (or the firmware update). Are you clueless? Use the tools available, extract the contents of one of Sony's PS3 firmware updates, and see if there's a copy of the source code (which they are required to provide) anywhere in reach, or a copy of the GPL (which they are also required to include). Here's a hint - you'll find neither. OtherOS was a feature of the PS3 system software (which is physically stored onto the hardware that you purchased with your own money) that allowed you to install Linux on your console. Do you even know what George Hotz "discovered?" Do you have any idea what's going on here?
Here's Lik-Sang (http://www.lik-sang.com/) - they didn't decide to shut down rather than appeal to the lawsuit they lost - not being able to sell imported PSPs didn't make or break the business. PSPs are systems, and ironically, it seems some of Sony Europe's managers ordered their PSPs from Lik-Sang before they were released in Europe. Bottom line - Sony sued them out of existence, and for no good reason.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 08:54:02 PM
No good reason? BS. And a court in the UK also disagrees with you because they ruled Lik Sang were violating Sony's copyrights. Lik Sang tried to make themselves look good, are they gonna admit that they decided to shut down rather than pay Sony the money they legally were required to?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 08:54:43 PM
No good reason? BS. And a court in the UK also disagrees with you because they ruled Lik Sang were violating Sony's copyrights. Lik Sang tried to make themselves look good, are they gonna admit that they decided to shut down rather than pay Sony the money they legally were required to?
Surely even you can see how ridiculous that excuse is. Sony was sour because Lik-Sang was offering their product in a more timely manner. Instead of working within the confines of a free market, Sony instead decided to badger Lik-Sang with lawsuit after lawsuit. Sony knows that they don't have to win a court case, they just have to make sure that their target goes bankrupt while hiring a team to defend themselves. They did the exact same thing to Bleem.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 09:08:51 PM
The difference between Bleem! (which I don't get how a judge ruled in favor of Bleem since it was clear that their actions were shady at best) and Lik Sang is that Lik Sang lost. Instead of working within the confines of the law, Lik Sang decided that making money was more important. I was disappointed when Lik Sang decided to shut down rather than just pay Sony and stay in business, but Sony was legally right.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 23, 2011, 09:15:27 PM
"Legally right". I like that. Never mind morals or common sense, we had the most expensive lawyers!
In the meantime, Sony compromises their customer's computers with rootkits and removes advertised features from their bought and owned hardware.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 09:34:24 PM
Why do you keep referring to people as "shady?" What did Bleem!'s authors do that was shady? They allowed people to play PlayStation games on their PC, and it was ruled legal to do so (or at least Sony was never able to win against them in court - they were legally right to let people play PlayStation games on their PCs, I believe is how you would describe it), and that's it. I've talked to Randy from Bleem! on the phone...he didn't seem too shady to me. Just seemed like an honest software developer that actually was concerned with how his product was working with his customers. Also, Randy works for Sony now (or at least as of 2005 he did, working in the porting and emulation areas of the company ironically)...so if he's shady...and he works for Sony...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 09:37:31 PM
Sony hired him because of what he did was technically impressive. The reason it was shady was because they were basically profiting off of other people's work. Would Microsoft be happy if a company created a emulated version of Halo: Reach that worked on PlayStation 3?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 23, 2011, 09:55:52 PM
Sony hired him because of what he did was technically impressive. The reason it was shady was because they were basically profiting off of other people's work. Would Microsoft be happy if a company created a emulated version of Halo: Reach that worked on PlayStation 3?
While your example of Halo: Reach working on a Playstation 3 is a valid analogy to what Bleem! did and why Sony was pissed, I don't think there was anything legally shady, and I think it's a bit unfair to say they were profiting off of other people's work. If I recall correctly, you had to have a legitimate copy of the game to be able to use Bleem!, so there couldn't be any claims of piracy in this version of emulation. Sony was just pissed that someone was trying to make a way to play Playstation games without owning the console. And based on the rulings, it seems like the court system didn't see that there was anything illegal about that.
While this is an old system, I kind of see it as being analogous to if Nintendo would sue the people who make those NES/SNES combo consoles. And the only reason I could really see why Sony thought it might have a case is because Bleem! was released in 1999, which was a year before the next generation Playstation came around making the original obsolete. They could make a claim that it was causing another source of cannibalizing their Playstation 1 sales, but I'm not knowledgeable enough of the law in this case to know if that would break any sort of law.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 23, 2011, 09:59:33 PM
This was nothing new. Atari sued Mattel for making an adapter that let you play Atari 2600 games on the Intellivision. The courts ended up ruling it was legal, but that Mattell (or maybe it was Coleco and the ColecoVision) had to pay Atari a fee for every adapter sold. I guess Sony could have tried to get the courts to do that, although obviously Bleem couldn't afford to do that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 10:09:07 PM
Why couldn't they? They were profiting off of other people's work, just like you said...accept they weren't They were profiting off of their own work. They weren't selling PlayStation games...they were selling a software emulator, you still had to buy the games. Here's something of interest (maybe) - I didn't even buy a PlayStation until after purchasing (yes, purchasing...the way you associate me with the word "shady" bothers me) both Bleem! and Virtual Game Station, along with several PlayStation games. Later, I bought a PS2 (at launch) because I had a bunch of PSX games, initially because of Bleem! and CVGS. So, it pays to not be a dick sometimes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 10:15:41 PM
In other good news - AsbestOS installer 2.0 has been released, which lets you install unmodified Debian Squeeze that was recently released (http://ps3crunch.com/asbestos-installer-v20-properly-released.html) - I'll be installing this over the weekend hopefully.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 23, 2011, 10:17:48 PM
Why couldn't they? They were profiting off of other people's work, just like you said...accept they weren't They were profiting off of their own work. They weren't selling PlayStation games...they were selling a software emulator, you still had to buy the games. Here's something of interest (maybe) - I didn't even buy a PlayStation until after purchasing (yes, purchasing...the way you associate me with the word "shady" bothers me) both Bleem! and Virtual Game Station, along with several PlayStation games. Later, I bought a PS2 (at launch) because I had a bunch of PSX games, initially because of Bleem! and CVGS. So, it pays to not be a dick sometimes.
I think this is a good point to make. You could probably argue that the introduction of software emulators on PC and Dreamcast actually helped, as it would provide people who had no interest in purchasing a Playstation console to buy a few games, which would result in profits for the game developers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 23, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
That's another thing I forgot to mention - I didn't buy Gran Turismo 2 until after I bought Bleem!Cast for GT2. Sure it was the most expensive way to buy GT2, but it was the best way to play it. I think I only paid like $15 for it or so, actually. Got them both at GameStop, think it was the first thing I ever bought from them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 23, 2011, 10:26:05 PM
This was nothing new. Atari sued Mattel for making an adapter that let you play Atari 2600 games on the Intellivision. The courts ended up ruling it was legal, but that Mattell (or maybe it was Coleco and the ColecoVision) had to pay Atari a fee for every adapter sold. I guess Sony could have tried to get the courts to do that, although obviously Bleem couldn't afford to do that.
Do you have any kind of a source for this complete crap you're spouting here?
Direct from the source: http://www.intellivisionlives.com/bluesky/hardware/changer_tech.html
Quote
Although Atari threatened to sue, Mattel's lawyers concluded that it would be legal to clone 2600s since they contained all off-the-shelf hardware and no copyrightable software (as an Intellivision or Colecovision does). No lawsuit appeared, and clones started appearing from other companies.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 24, 2011, 04:20:26 AM
The difference between Bleem! (which I don't get how a judge ruled in favor of Bleem since it was clear that their actions were shady at best)
Judges don't rule based on what appears "shady"; they rule based on the law. Bleem was 100% legal under fair use.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on February 24, 2011, 12:17:12 PM
Quote
Actually, that argument was settled a long time ago, and the law's view on it has not changed.
An argument doesn't get settled just because the law says so. This will become more relevant as remote off switches become more and more common and consumers get pushed around more and more.
Let's put it this way. If Nintendo remotely disabled my VC purchases I would pirate that **** in a heartbeat and would feel not the slightest bit of guilt. I wouldn't take anything else, just get back what I paid for. No revenge or anything like that, just taking back what was stolen from me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Nick DiMola on February 24, 2011, 01:11:31 PM
What I find pretty interesting, is that in the case of the iPhone vs. jailbreakers, the Library of Congress ruled that bypassing a phone OS is completely acceptable under Fair Use. Given the precedent in place already, I have to imagine the same exception to the DMCA will apply. In both cases, Hotz simply gained root access to the device and published the key, which would allow others to exercise their Fair Use rights as declared by the DMCA and exempted by the Library of Congress.
It seems like everyone is quick to decry the work of these hackers because it leads to piracy and other potential problems, but the work done by Hotz is no different than his work on the iPhone. Gaining root access doesn't inherently provide the ability to piracy, it merely gives hackers of that variety a starting point.
With Sony involved in two separate cases over the same topic (both as plaintiffs and defendants) it should be interesting to see how everything plays out. Honestly, I think they are going to lose on all fronts. They've been arguing that removing the OtherOS functionality was ok because they didn't have privity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privity) with the system owners, and against Hotz, they claim they had privity which prohibits him from violating the EULA (which includes a clause regarding hacking).
Obviously you can't have it both ways, especially when (I believe) the same judge is sitting in on both trials. In my opinion, hacking a console is on shaky ground at worst, and at best, it has already been condoned as an exception to the DMCA by the Library of Congress via the iPhone jailbreaking situation. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see how the judge interprets the law, being that it's his job to do so.
My sources on the topic if anyone is interested, http://internetjustice.blogspot.com/2010/12/iphone-jailbreaking-and-dmca.html and http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110218181557455
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 24, 2011, 01:49:28 PM
What I find pretty interesting, is that in the case of the iPhone vs. jailbreakers, the Library of Congress ruled that bypassing a phone OS is completely acceptable under Fair Use. Given the precedent in place already, I have to imagine the same exception to the DMCA will apply. In both cases, Hotz simply gained root access to the device and published the key, which would allow others to exercise their Fair Use rights as declared by the DMCA and exempted by the Library of Congress.
It seems like everyone is quick to decry the work of these hackers because it leads to piracy and other potential problems, but the work done by Hotz is no different than his work on the iPhone. Gaining root access doesn't inherently provide the ability to piracy, it merely gives hackers of that variety a starting point.
With Sony involved in two separate cases over the same topic (both as plaintiffs and defendants) it should be interesting to see how everything plays out. Honestly, I think they are going to lose on all fronts. They've been arguing that removing the OtherOS functionality was ok because they didn't have privity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privity) with the system owners, and against Hotz, they claim they had privity which prohibits him from violating the EULA (which includes a clause regarding hacking).
Obviously you can't have it both ways, especially when (I believe) the same judge is sitting in on both trials. In my opinion, hacking a console is on shaky ground at worst, and at best, it has already been condoned as an exception to the DMCA by the Library of Congress via the iPhone jailbreaking situation. Anyway, we'll have to wait and see how the judge interprets the law, being that it's his job to do so.
My sources on the topic if anyone is interested, http://internetjustice.blogspot.com/2010/12/iphone-jailbreaking-and-dmca.html and http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110218181557455
A well-reasoned, level-headed post, with sources to back it up. That, ladies and gentlemen, is why NWR has the best forums on the internet. If I could applaud this more than once I would.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 25, 2011, 04:20:14 PM
Now this is actually hilarious - Sony is now suing graf_chokolo for 750,000 euros (http://ps3crunch.com/grafchokolo.html). The amount could actually be more, but it just goes to show you that this is all about Sony trying to cripple the hackers financially and force them into remission. BTW, graf's reaction to this - basically a big "**** you" and he is not stopping, at all. They can't take the information out of his head, and it's already all over the internet anyway, but he is not slowing down, and seems to actually feed on Sony coming after him. Sony just keeps drawing more and more attention to something that was only affecting a very small amount of users, and bringing all of this into the mainstream. I love it. It's going to be especially great when this blows up in their face after they lose all of their lawsuits, this way a lot more people will have knowledge of what they're allowed to do with the hardware that they own.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 04:31:34 PM
graf is an idiot. When you break the law and then brag about it, juries are not gonna show you any consideration. I will laugh my ass off when this loser is forced to pay Sony all that money when they easily win the lawsuit. He knows what he did was wrong and it just trying to get as much publicity as he can.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 25, 2011, 04:45:20 PM
Again, please tell me which law he has broken and exactly how he has done so. I've tried to get you to do this before, but you haven't done it yet. He has not been arrested...perhaps he's not breaking the law?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 04:53:06 PM
I already answered, but you ignored it. He tried to blackmail Sony, which is against EU laws. And in case you weren't aware, you don't have to be arrested the same day you get caught (or Sony could be deciding to not file charges yet). There are also crimes that don't have jail time. For example, libel is illegal but is not a criminal offense in the US (meaning you can't be arrested for it, but you can be sued by the person you are doing it against).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 25, 2011, 05:05:46 PM
I know I'm the one that originally posed the question but I do have to point out something
black·mail: Demand money from (a person) in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person
As far as I know Graf never demanded any sort of financial gain from Sony, all he did do was threaten to put what he knows on the internet for all to see and use freely as they see fit if they didn't leave him alone. They didn't leave him alone and then he followed through. I only posed the question because I don't know what the laws constitute as blackmail in his country, but going by that definition of blackmail, he hasn't "blackmailed" anyone.
I also believe that you have still ignored UncleBob's request (8 post ago) for a source to the FUD that you were spouting as fact earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 05:09:53 PM
Blackmail does not require money. For example, here is one of the definitions from dictionary.com:
to force or coerce into a particular action, statement, etc.:
That is what he did, he tried to force Sony to back off their investigation into him by threatening to release the hacked info.
As for UncleBob, I made a mistake. I was mixing up the adapter situation with the Atari/Activision situation (where Activision became the first third party publisher on the Atari 2600 and Atari sued by saying only they were allowed to release games on their system, the courts rules Activision was allowed to do it too but had to pay a licensing fee to Atari).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 25, 2011, 05:10:43 PM
The law is pretty clearly on their side. So we will see, I will be paying attention to it.
What will your reaction be if Sony loses?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 05:20:16 PM
I will be disappointed for a minute, then shrug my shoulders and chalk it up to yet another wrongly made court decision (plenty of those exist).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 25, 2011, 06:48:55 PM
So if you admit that his only "crime" is "blackmail", then that would mean that Sony was harassing him since what he was doing was not against the law, right?
I'm trying to gain an understanding of what your issue is and why you chose the stance that you have.
Man is peacefully hacking his own console, which I see no legal issue with, and Sony tells him that he can no longer manipulate the functions of the hardware that he owns to which he replies that Sony should just leave him alone since he is not breaking any law or he will share all his knowledge with the world on how to do the things he has been doing.
To my knowledge there is nothing wrong/illegal with "hacking" your own hardware and there is nothing wrong with telling people how they can hack their own hardware (as long as you don't hack it for them, and especially for profit).
So where exactly does everything go wrong for you?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 06:58:57 PM
Wait, what? Blackmail IS against the law. Sony was legally telling sites to stop violating the DMCA, and this guy tried to blackmail Sony into stopping. Then he confirmed that he broke the law and is a douche by releasing the info.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 25, 2011, 07:33:07 PM
You say it's blackmail, but that may not be how everyone else sees it. He didn't demand anything from Sony only wanted them to leave him be to his non law breaking hobby.
To me is sounds more like Sony harassed him unless the the DMCA is something enforceable by law in another country other than the USA, then I don't really see what he was doing that was so wrong.
That is what I want explained. I don't know what the Hyper Visor is or how him hacking it would be illegal since hacking of your own hardware is not illegal.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 07:38:54 PM
He DID demand something from Sony, as has been stated several times. That makes it blackmail. Sony wasn't harassing anyone, they were telling sites that were hosting content they weren't allowed to to remove the content since they were violating the DMCA. He was upset because it was content he provided those sites, that is when he decided to blackmail Sony by threatening to leak the hacked info if they didn't stop trying to get those sites to follow the law.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 25, 2011, 07:39:47 PM
Quote
to force or coerce into a particular action, statement, etc.:
You mean like trying to force/coerce someone into stopping legal actions?
Wait, what? Blackmail IS against the law. Sony was legally telling sites to stop violating the DMCA, and this guy tried to blackmail Sony into stopping. Then he confirmed that he broke the law and is a douche by releasing the info.
Actually, what Sony was doing could constitute as harassment. If I have a lawyer send you letters on a regular basis telling you what you're doing is illegal and I'm going to prosecute you, etc., etc and it turns out you're not doing something illegal then I could be in legal trouble myself.
As for the adapter situation - I think it goes to show that it is likely very legal (as there's been no court case otherwise) to do exactly what you were saying was illegal.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 25, 2011, 07:56:16 PM
He DID demand something from Sony, as has been stated several times. That makes it blackmail. Sony wasn't harassing anyone, they were telling sites that were hosting content they weren't allowed to to remove the content since they were violating the DMCA. He was upset because it was content he provided those sites, that is when he decided to blackmail Sony by threatening to leak the hacked info if they didn't stop trying to get those sites to follow the law.
Were they US sites? because according to Wiki, the DMCA is an American Copyright Law and therefore may not be enforceable anywhere but in the US.
I'm not gonna pretend to know what is or isn't wrong here since i don't have all the facts of the case and don't really care enough to research it on my own, but that is why I'm trying to get it explained what exactly it is that he did wrong.
What content was illegal to be up? Modding/hacking your console is not illegal to my knowledge, as long as it's done in a way that is not intended for strictly illegal purposes, such as playing pirated software or bypassing certain network safety protocols (such as stealing personal info and things like that). So why was that info illegal to be put up?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 08:07:37 PM
I don't know which sites were targeted because I can't find that info. I am just going by how I see it and what the laws appear to say. I am not a lawyer though.
As for which info, a lot of the technical stuff in the system is patented or copyrighted or something like that and posting it was illegal. As far as I can tell, all the lawsuits have been about spreading the info rather than the hacking itself.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 25, 2011, 08:19:32 PM
If the way he obtained the information wasn't illegal, then neither was telling people what he found. Just because Sony doesn't want him to do it doesn't mean he doesn't have the legal right to do it. If he's done nothing illegal, Sony has no grounds to sue him for what you call blackmail.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 08:28:15 PM
It's not what I call blackmail, it's what the law calls blackmail.
Let's say someone manage to figure out the recipe to Coca-Cola. The recipe is technically not patented (because that would require them to divulge what is in it). If that person threatened to reveal the secret unless Coke did something, that would be illegal even if the person didn't break the law to get the recipe. Whether this guy legally got the info or not, the action of blackmailing Sony is not legal.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 25, 2011, 08:30:31 PM
It's not what I call blackmail, it's what the law calls blackmail.
Let's say someone manage to figure out the recipe to Coca-Cola. The recipe is technically not patented (because that would require them to divulge what is in it). If that person threatened to reveal the secret unless Coke did something, that would be illegal even if the person didn't break the law to get the recipe. Whether this guy legally got the info or not, the action of blackmailing Sony is not legal.
For the record, telling someone to do something or you're going to turn them in is blackmail as well.
I don't know which sites were targeted because I can't find that info. I am just going by how I see it and what the laws appear to say. I am not a lawyer though.
As for which info, a lot of the technical stuff in the system is patented or copyrighted or something like that and posting it was illegal. As far as I can tell, all the lawsuits have been about spreading the info rather than the hacking itself.
Patented is way different than copyrighted.
If it was copyrighted, then all that prevents him from doing is reproducing the code. He wasn't doing that.
If it's patented, then there's nothing stopping him from reproducing the code or talking about how to work around it. If you have a formula for a super-drug and patent it, then I take the formula, reproduce it with something different in it, I'm okay. Happens all the time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 25, 2011, 08:33:01 PM
Sony is guilty of blackmail because they threatened him with legal action if he didn't stop what he was doing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 08:35:54 PM
It's not what I call blackmail, it's what the law calls blackmail.
Let's say someone manage to figure out the recipe to Coca-Cola. The recipe is technically not patented (because that would require them to divulge what is in it). If that person threatened to reveal the secret unless Coke did something, that would be illegal even if the person didn't break the law to get the recipe. Whether this guy legally got the info or not, the action of blackmailing Sony is not legal.
For the record, telling someone to do something or you're going to turn them in is blackmail as well.
So you are admitting he tried to blackmail Sony? At least we agree he broke the law. If you are referring to Sony, sending cease-and-desist letters to sites that are posting your stuff like that is not wrong. So Chozo is 100% wrong too. Sony has not not anything wrong in this situation, and it's funny to see you think they did.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on February 25, 2011, 08:36:32 PM
http://ps3crunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Legal-Notice-Amir-Ariff2.pdf (http://ps3crunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Legal-Notice-Amir-Ariff2.pdf) It's interesting that the lawyer chose to use a case that is still in progress as his example violation case. Is it because there aren't any other cases that have been decided in their favor?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 25, 2011, 08:44:17 PM
It's not what I call blackmail, it's what the law calls blackmail.
Let's say someone manage to figure out the recipe to Coca-Cola. The recipe is technically not patented (because that would require them to divulge what is in it). If that person threatened to reveal the secret unless Coke did something, that would be illegal even if the person didn't break the law to get the recipe. Whether this guy legally got the info or not, the action of blackmailing Sony is not legal.
If Coca Cola were harassing that person and threatening legal action they had no grounds for prior to that, I doubt they'd be able to successfully go after him for blackmail even if that's technically what he did.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 25, 2011, 08:44:57 PM
If you are referring to Sony, sending cease-and-desist letters to sites that are posting your stuff like that is not wrong.
Sony doesn't own the copyrights to the hacks/software/documentation Graf posted. The law says that copyrights are automatically assigned to the author. Unless he stole something Sony made its not theft. If he wrote software or hacks himself then he owns it. Sony has no right to blackmail him to remove it.
Their legal action will go nowhere, because for one thing their case is groundless. For another thing, the stuff is already out there and can't be stopped now. Its like when a celebrity sex tape gets leaked on the net. It spreads like wildfire and its there for good. Graf can't recall it now even if he wanted to, and by all indications him being bullied and blackmailed by Sony is making him more determined than ever to continue to defy them at every turn.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 25, 2011, 08:47:00 PM
If you are referring to Sony, sending cease-and-desist letters to sites that are posting your stuff like that is not wrong.
Dude, I don't write the laws. Granted, this is US law, but... http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C41.txt (http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C41.txt)
Quote
Whoever, under a threat of informing, or as a consideration for not informing, against any violation of any law of the United States, demands or receives any money or other valuable thing, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.
Sony said "Hey, remove this (this being information that is very valuable to Sony) and we won't inform the authorities about your 'violations' of the 'law'."
That, my friend, is blackmail per US law.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 08:53:55 PM
You really have a warped interpretation. I will give an example: I see someone selling drugs out of their house, I tell them to stop or I will report them to the police. Under your bizarre and false logic, I could be sued for blackmail. And that is not what happened here. Sony told these sites to stop making the info available (from all reports I have seen, they never threatened to do anything). This guy decided to break the law and blackmail Sony by threatening to release this info if they didn't stop. Sony did the right thing by reporting him to German authorities, who then preceded to raid his house. He decided to be a douche and cast away and potential defense by then posting the info.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 25, 2011, 08:59:29 PM
You really have a warped interpretation. I will give an example: I see someone selling drugs out of their house, I tell them to stop or I will report them to the police. Under your bizarre and false logic, I could be sued for blackmail.
As you said, this isn't what happened here. The information being posted on the sites (legally) was damaging to Sony. The had something to gain by forcing these sites to remove the information - and these sites had a lot to lose by removing them (web hits, ad space, etc.). Call your local police or an attorney. Ask them if it's legal to tell someone to give you something valuable in exchange for you not turning them in for doing something "illegal". Let me know what they say.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 09:15:52 PM
Sony wasn't demanding anything in exchange, they were just telling the sites to take down info they legally had no right to host. I have said this multiple times, and that is the fact in this situation based on what we know.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 25, 2011, 09:21:45 PM
If by "what we know" you mean "what Sony wants us to think," then you're absolutely right
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 25, 2011, 09:23:22 PM
Based on what we know, meaning just that. The facts that are not in dispute. All the details are not known, but what we do know does not look good for the guy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 25, 2011, 09:31:25 PM
http://ps3crunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Legal-Notice-Amir-Ariff2.pdf (http://ps3crunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Legal-Notice-Amir-Ariff2.pdf) It's interesting that the lawyer chose to use a case that is still in progress as his example violation case. Is it because there aren't any other cases that have been decided in their favor?
They must be really confident that they will win* this case other wise it would kill both cases to have once citing another as a backbone right?
*read: outspend defendant till they can no longer afford further legal counsel.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 25, 2011, 10:35:39 PM
I'm struggling a bit with the overuse of the words "illegal", "shady", and the possible misuse of the words "hacker", "pirate", and "blackmail"
Firstly, can someone here prove that what GeoHot and Graf did was illegal? I'll admit I might have a hole in my argument here, but as far as I know, the case against GeoHot is a civil case, not criminal (Link in case anyone needs clarification on differences between the two (http://public.findlaw.com/library/legal-system/civil-vs-criminal-cases.html)). Meaning that technically no law is being broken, as otherwise they would be pursuing putting Geohot in prison instead of suing him . This is a case more reminiscent of Sony suing Geohot for breach of contract (Terms of Service agreement, I believe) as well as violating the DMCA, which I think is unreliable at best, because:
1) Absolutely no-one reads Terms-of-Service 2) Reading the DMCA, the only things I thought they could put him accountable for are sections protecting the copyright of video games (which Geohot has claimed he has not pirated), and a section regarding unauthorized hacks of cell phones for the sake of putting them on another network, which has recently been negated (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/07/feds-ok-iphone-jailbreaking/). Since the cell phone provision is the closest to the Geohot case because of the questions of the user's rights to ownership of their hardware, I would assume the DMCA would be a bit neutered, if not useless as an argument.
There is a distinct difference between a "hacker" and "pirate" in context of these cases. A person doesn't have to be a hacker to be a pirate (or vice versa), but that also doesn't mean that they can't be both as well. It's a bit baseless and biased to say that all hackers are pirates, or that all pirates are hackers.
I actually do agree with TJ Spyke that what Graf threatened Sony with would be considered blackmail (http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ps3-hacker-blackmail-sony/) (Yes, I know it's not exactly a scholarly source, and I'll gladly listen to counterarguments). What he threatened to release was something of definite value that could damage their business if released. The way I read one article is that he threatened to release info from Sony's hypervisor, so wouldn't that technically be Sony's intellectual property that he's threatening to release?
I don't care for people using the words "shady", because it's simply an adjective used by people of both sides for the sake of belittling or putting into doubt the merits of either side. Whether you think GeoHot is a smelly pirate hooker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag8g96qsdaI), or that Sony is the Shinra (http://shinra.corp.free.fr/imgcom/shinratour.jpg)corporation in disguise, using insults towards the parties in this issue or other forum members just undermines your own arguments by making you look overly biased. Let's put aside the vitriol and hate, and have some rational arguments here :).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 25, 2011, 10:41:23 PM
If you think this is vitriol and hate you should have been here a couple weeks ago. After two locked threads, the third time appears to be the charm; this thread has seen some strong disagreements, but things have been civil and rational for the most part.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 25, 2011, 10:48:45 PM
TJ, you have confirmed that you have no idea what you're talking about. Please go back in time and pay attention to this entire situation from day one and then make some informed comments about it. If someone is blackmailing you, that's a crime, so you have that person arrested. graf_chokolo has not blackmailed ANYONE (who "blackmails" people via twitter/blogs to begin with?), and Sony has had plenty of time to come up with an actual crime that any of these hackers have commited (remember, George Hotz first starting hacking his PS3 in 2009), yet no one has been charged...ever.
Whenever you say something like "based on what we know" it's confusing, because you have no idea what you're talking about. Please don't use "what we know," but rather "what I think" or "some bullshit analogy that I came up with to justify some comment that I made before I even began to understand any of this."
Edit - I may be ruining the whole "civil and rational" theme that we've somehow managed to adhere to, but I've been at work for 13 hours so I haven't had a real chance to say anything.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 26, 2011, 01:11:17 AM
You really have a warped interpretation. I will give an example: I see someone selling drugs out of their house, I tell them to stop or I will report them to the police. Under your bizarre and false logic, I could be sued for blackmail.
Although this is getting off topic, if you see someone selling drugs and don't alert the authorities of it you could get in serious trouble for reasons which are unrelated to blackmail. The way the drug laws are in this country you are required to turn in even your family members if you know they are guilty or you face things like asset forfeiture where the police can take your car, your home, and pretty much anything you own and you have little or no legal recourse.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 26, 2011, 03:04:36 AM
(http://s3.postimage.org/6areh094t/Judge_Dredd_bobble.jpg) (http://www.postimage.org/) TJ crossed into Judge Dredd Bobble head territory a long time ago.
I doubt anyone of us no matter how reasonable or well thought out is going to change TJ's perception of Law and Justice. He will continue to insinuate, mislabel, misdirect, misuse, outright abuse anything to justify any law regardless of how ungrounded in reality or enforceable they might be. If this was a religious debate, he would not doubt represent the fundamentalist.
The damn thing is that regardless on your views as to the quality of that movie, even Judge Dredd learnt a thing or two right and wrong that isn't completely based on the law. It's not Robocop level of satire, but it's there.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 26, 2011, 10:32:26 AM
Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 26, 2011, 11:50:03 AM
Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.
Depends. According to US Law, at least, he did not. Graf did not "demand or receive money or any other valuable thing." He said "leave us alone or I'll tell what I know." He made no demands of payment of any kind.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 26, 2011, 12:30:30 PM
I wouldn't be so sure. He threatened to release the info if Sony didn't back off from getting those sites to take down the illegal info. That would be of value to him. I am having a hard time finding out the exact laws regarding it in Germany and the European Union though since those are what would apply here.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 26, 2011, 12:57:05 PM
I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home. The last I heard on this story, Sony had filed charges to sue him for 1,000,000 Euros, so we'll see how that goes.
Honestly, though, aren't you guys getting tired of this argument? It's been going on for several days now and you lot are just repeating the same retorts.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 26, 2011, 02:42:43 PM
Brandogg, graf DID blackmail Sony. That is not in dispute. Whether he did anything else wrong could possibly be up for debate, but he did blackmail Sony.
Really? Funny that no one has even mentioned blackmail until you did. Sony didn't sue him for blackmail, so it seems they don't feel he was blackmailing them either. Again, what info that was illegal was Sony taking down? You keep saying stuff that makes no sense, and just makes it seem like you just went and read a summary of a "report" about some of this, then made a comment about it. Again, blackmail is typically done in private, not via a public website where you put your words out in the open like that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 26, 2011, 03:32:36 PM
I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home.
The purpose of the raid was to gather evidence of any crimes. All they needed was probable cause, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is guilty or that any crime was committed. Sony convinced the police to conduct the raid (maybe they bribed them to do it, such things are not unheard of). But look at it this way: he wasn't arrested. That probably means their raid didn't uncover any proof of illegal activity. So that's probably when Sony decided since there were no grounds for criminal charges they would just file a frivolous lawsuit to make his life unpleasant. Just like how people on here push the smite button on people they don't like... it has no real effect, but its a childish way to "get back" at someone. So the lawsuit is just out of spite and its going to be an inconvenience for this guy, but ultimately it will be dropped/dismissed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 26, 2011, 03:44:35 PM
People aren't always arrested when a raid is done. Sometimes they wait to get more evidence. Not to mention there are plenty of crimes that don't result in jail sentences. Sony will end up winning this because the guy has not shown any evidence that he is innocent and he just continues making himself look like a douche.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 26, 2011, 03:50:47 PM
the guy has not shown any evidence that he is innocent
Umm, its "innocent until proven guilty"; not the other way around. I'm relieved you aren't a lawyer or judge or anyone with any real authority over legal matters.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 26, 2011, 05:02:06 PM
This is ridiculous. TJ you are talking in circles and just because you repeat something till you are blue in the face is not gonna make it all of a sudden be true. You feel you have a point and you keep stating it's based on facts, but everytime someone ask you to back it up or explain, you start talking in circles again and referencing yourself as proof of point. That is not getting this conversation anywhere.
We've asked what illegal information there was and you give a vague answer of "i don't know the sites... violation of DMCA.... shady illegal he's a criminal.... blah blah blah".
Please just back up what you are referring to with something so that this conversation can move out of this infinite loop of you rephrasing a previous post and someone asking what proof you have to back that up or come to that conclusion and then you reword a previous post again. It's tiring and I think I'm getting dizzy.
I just want to understand what makes you come to the conclusions you have come to and I need more than "It is blackmail" & "it was illegal info" before I can understand where you are coming from.
Points that need to be addressed: -What illegal information was being asked to be removed from sites by Sony? -What makes that information illegal? -How is telling someone to leave you be or you will make' the knowledge you already obtain and developed on your own' public, defined as blackmail in a way that means you are asking for something valuable in return for silence or looking the other way? -How is getting a lawsuit filed against you and having the police raid your house, automatically make you a criminal before any such evidence of criminal activity has been presented and decided on in a court or any laws that have been unquestionably broken have been defined?
and a question not related to TJ in anyway. What is the HyperVisor, what does hacking/backward engineering it do, and do you need permission to backward engineer a technology? Because I don't think we would have gotten as far as we have today if you needed permission to stuff like that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 26, 2011, 05:15:13 PM
Congratulations TJ, you have single handedly destroyed one of the pillars of judicatory that has stood for over 700 years. Now you can stand tall, above the illustrious groups of individuals and governments that have for nearly a millennia tried to smash this outdated idea that is presumption of innocence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty).
You have validated the use of extracted confessions by everybody up till the 18th century, and made Stalin proud, oh so proud. George W. Bush could have made great use of you when he needed extraordinary rendition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition) made legal and quiet! I am sure by extension you can remove habeas corpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) since anybody accused or looking funny are now automatically criminals, I mean look at all those people in Gitmo! I mean water boarding and loud music is so 2000s, lets do something from the 90's like car battery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he66cH1UzGI), water sponges and a guy named Ando.
What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.
I do wonder what other miracles TJ will have in store next, ready to burst out of his righteous brain of his.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 26, 2011, 05:30:07 PM
I am quite sick of arguing over this issue over and over again. Maybe when I calm down I will come back and post.
And for the record, I am an extreme liberal. Believing in law does not make you a conservative, quite the opposite. Liberals tend to actually believe in the constitution (not ignore it and make up crap). I am not a libertarian though (who basically believe people should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want to as long as they don't harm others). Forgive me for not believing people should have the right to take stuff that doesn't belong to them, and then share it with others knowing it will hurt the company that took the time and resources to develop it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 26, 2011, 05:39:51 PM
What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.
Well that was uncalled for. I've largely stayed out of this conversation for several days. I'd also like to remind you that you are bringing politics into this matter, something you know damn well is not allowed here.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 26, 2011, 05:41:09 PM
Forgive me for not believing people should have the right to take stuff that doesn't belong to them,
What did he take that didn't belong to him?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 26, 2011, 05:48:31 PM
To my understanding, this guy didn't take anything from anyone, pirate any software or profit from anyone else's work. He figured out a way to manipulate some software that was included on the hardware that he bought to allow it to do things that it wasn't originally intended to allow the end-user access to do. What is so illegal about that?
He didn't go into other peoples systems and circumvent any security measures to allow them to do it too. He simply used his right to legally spread information that he legally developed on his own so that they may legally replicate the actions that he legally did. What is so illegal about that? please correct me if I have any of the facts wrong here.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on February 26, 2011, 05:49:46 PM
Congratulations TJ, you have single handedly destroyed one of the pillars of judicatory that has stood for over 700 years. Now you can stand tall, above the illustrious groups of individuals and governments that have for nearly a millennia tried to smash this outdated idea that is presumption of innocence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_until_proven_guilty).
You have validated the use of extracted confessions by everybody up till the 18th century, and made Stalin proud, oh so proud. George W. Bush could have made great use of you when he needed extraordinary rendition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition) made legal and quiet! I am sure by extension you can remove habeas corpus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus) since anybody accused or looking funny are now automatically criminals, I mean look at all those people in Gitmo! I mean water boarding and loud music is so 2000s, lets do something from the 90's like car battery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he66cH1UzGI), water sponges and a guy named Ando.
What too slow? Well **** it, why do the whole song and dance when you can just put people up against a wall. They are all guilty of some thing right? They have to be since someone accused them, also with original sin and all that. Who the **** needs evidence or a trial because your word is good. It better than anything a defense could come up with. What? too hard? Well I am sure Broodwars will be willing to assist your crusade to make a simpler world where people will become too scared to even **** themselves thereby solving another problem that plague humanity since time immemorial.
I do wonder what other miracles TJ will have in store next, ready to burst out of his righteous brain of his.
Bullshit. The founding fathers were Liberals. They believed in innocent until proven guilty and all sorts of other things that you are against. You kiss Sony's ass even as they screw consumers.
Believing in law does not make you a conservative, quite the opposite.
You only support laws that support corporations, not the ones that support individuals. You believe the DMCA is more important than the bill of rights.
Liberals tend to actually believe in the constitution (not ignore it and make up crap).
Maybe they do, but you sure don't. You've ignored it by saying he is "clearly guilty" even without proof or a conviction. You've made up all kinds of crap throughout this thread so if liberals don't "make up crap" then how can you be one?
And finally, I should point out that you've admitted in the past in another thread that you hacked your PSP so if hacking is a crime then if that guy deserves to rot in prison then you deserve to as well. So keep that in mind becasue you're just as guilty as he is.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 26, 2011, 06:08:08 PM
I can't very well explain what presumption of innocence is without pointing out examples and it's logical conclusion in a world without it.
I brought you in Broodwars because you fell into the same assumption as TJ did. In evidence I present.
I've said it before and it's worth noting: if the guy didn't break the law in some capacity, the German Police and Justice Departments likely would not have agreed to Sony's request and raided this guy's home.
The purpose of the raid was to gather evidence of any crimes. All they needed was probable cause, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is guilty or that any crime was committed. Sony convinced the police to conduct the raid (maybe they bribed them to do it, such things are not unheard of). But look at it this way: he wasn't arrested. That probably means their raid didn't uncover any proof of illegal activity. So that's probably when Sony decided since there were no grounds for criminal charges they would just file a frivolous lawsuit to make his life unpleasant. Just like how people on here push the smite button on people they don't like... it has no real effect, but its a childish way to "get back" at someone. So the lawsuit is just out of spite and its going to be an inconvenience for this guy, but ultimately it will be dropped/dismissed. [/quote}
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 26, 2011, 06:09:37 PM
Guys, seriously...knock it off with the politics. You know that topic is banned here for good reason.
As for the political parties, suffice it to say that what a "liberal" is and what a "conservative" is has shifted and changed over the years as well as spinning off new philosophies (like my Libertarianism), as is the nature of such philosophies.
And Ooohboy, I was trying to look at that event logically. Logically, unless the German Police and Justice Departments are wildly corrupt (which we have no proof of), for Sony to convince them to devote resources to conduct a raid, logic states that Sony must have presented them with Just Cause or evidence to make them think the law was being violated. Until we see more evidence, I'm fine with leaving it at that and seeing what the courts do with it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 26, 2011, 06:15:54 PM
Ultimately, any argument TJ comes up with is rendered invalid by the fact he hacked his PSP. It sickens me that someone who hacks their own consoles likes to gloat over someone else being fined a million euros for doing the same thing. What TJ is is a hypocrite. Not a liberal or anything else. Just a hypocrite.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 26, 2011, 06:22:48 PM
Why the hell did I have to go and say this thread was civil and rational? That was just asking for trouble.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: nickmitch on February 26, 2011, 06:47:16 PM
This thread has gonna get locked. Everyone needs to calm down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 26, 2011, 06:48:09 PM
This thread has gonna get locked. Everyone needs to calm down.
No, you shut up!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: nickmitch on February 26, 2011, 06:48:36 PM
Spamming thread with lolcats now: (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/0a448863-2ded-4b2b-ba73-35d7286e1d04.jpg)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 26, 2011, 06:50:22 PM
Civil and rational are a two item combo. This thread only had one of them. I felt sarcasm was a suitable replacement in order to produce civil sarcasm.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: nickmitch on February 26, 2011, 06:54:35 PM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 01:28:42 PM
Uh-oh...looks like this LG case has some merit - PS3 systems not being imported into Europe, being seized by customs... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/28/playstation-3-lg-legal-dispute)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 01:32:00 PM
It's just a preliminary injunction, but I guess the judge who did it wants more time to examine the complaint. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sony get it overturned while the case plays out (since I think that is what usually happens in situations like this). I am not convinced LG has a legit complaint, although I am not a patent lawyer so I can't say.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 01:34:34 PM
Well tens of thousands of consoles have already been confiscated by European Customs, and this will last for at least 10 days.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 01:37:20 PM
Uh-oh...looks like this LG case has some merit - PS3 systems not being imported into Europe, being seized by customs... (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/feb/28/playstation-3-lg-legal-dispute)
Hmm...interesting. I'll be curious to see how long this temporary injunction lasts. It could just be a precautionary thing while the judge is looking over all the preliminary evidence.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 01:37:55 PM
Unless Sony gets an appeal before that. Sony could lose a lot of money if the injunction lasts more than a few days. This does give Sony grounds to counter-sue though as they are losing revenue because of LG's actions (assuming Sony wins the original suit). I am very surprised though that LG managed to find a judge who would grant an injunction.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 01:40:04 PM
It's just a preliminary injunction, but I guess the judge who did it wants more time to examine the complaint. I wouldn't be surprised to see Sony get it overturned while the case plays out (since I think that is what usually happens in situations like this). I am not convinced LG has a legit complaint, although I am not a patent lawyer so I can't say.
But doesn't this mean that Sony is guilty and should be fined 700million Euros or something. Obviously Sony has unquestionably done wrong since the law has taken action against them and we all know how you feel about that....
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 01:43:20 PM
Nice troll bait.
Preliminary injunctions don't really mean much, especially in patent cases since they usually are just so the judge has more time to examine the complaints.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 01:46:02 PM
hahaha I called it.
quote or hover over the .... at the end of my previous post. You are so predictable. lol
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 01:50:15 PM
Posts that say "I am very surprised though that LG managed to find a judge who would grant an injunction" mean even less than said preliminary injunctions, espcially since you have said your degree is in not being a patent lawyer.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 01:53:29 PM
So are you BNM, you have become a troll lately and I know you just smited me. I was engaging in a actual conversation when you decided to derail it.
Brandogg, what I meant is that judges are people too and they each feel differently on issues. LG tried to find a judge that they felt would support their claims. Lawyers always try to find a judge that will likely side with what their client wants (doesn't always work since you can't predict what they will do, but you look at how they have rules in similar situations in the past).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 02:08:19 PM
I've become a troll lately?
LO F'n L
that's hilarious. I call you on the things you are posting and honestly try to figure out why you are thinking what you do and that is trolling? Then I point out some hypocrisy on your stance based on the comments you have posted in this very thread and I am trolling?
Then you continue on this smiting rampage across the forums (we all know you are obsessed with applaud and smite) as if most of us even give a damn about that score on the side of the screen as if it means anything at all. I call you on your comment and predict you will smite me again. You do, I continue to not care, and we can rewind and start the process all over again and again if you like.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 02:26:30 PM
Ugh, I'm starting to think that the mods are going to have to ban PS3 piracy/hacking/legal talk in these threads, right up there with politics; religion; and the Great Pum-...yeah. ;) All it has seemed to do of late is create hostility, which is odd because this is usually a pretty friendly board. :-\
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 28, 2011, 02:34:13 PM
You've got a lot of nerve making a post calling for civility with that signature.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 02:38:58 PM
You've got a lot of nerve making a post calling for civility with that signature.
Well, it's true. I put that signature up after I got something like 40 smites basically for taking a skeptically neutral position in these threads and rarely posting: I'm anti-piracy and I don't like most of these hackers (and view several as utter losers, such as that one in Germany who got raided and cried out that Sony should basically kill him because he just can't live without hacking ::) ), but willing to see what happens with them in the legal system. There are those in these threads, however, that seem to delight in any bit of flesh they can bite off of Sony, and relish in watching it hurt. That this is a Nintendo-focused site does not hurt those odds. I think that's what governs a lot of what we've seen in these threads.
I'd be completely willing to pull the signature (it was only meant to be a temporary thing, anyway, as I was pretty angry with several posters here when I made it) if people will just knock it off and stop starting fights/throwing smites every 5 minutes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on February 28, 2011, 02:50:10 PM
Most of the people defending the hackers (myself, Brandogg, Morari, and others) would be taking the exact same stance if Nintendo were using the same tactics against the Wii homebrew community. I have the Homebrew Channel installed on my Wii, which I've never used for piracy (unless you count a little playing around with emulators), and I would like to try PS3 hacking to expand the multimedia applications of the hardware if I weren't afraid of Sony coming after me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2011, 03:20:44 PM
I thought TJ believed in and supported the law? Now he's saying this judge is wrong?
Hey TJ, LG is a big wealthy corporation just like Sony is so its okay if you kiss their ass too. Its not like they are some lone individual like that hacker guy. Or is it that you only kiss Sony's ass? What is your reason for that? After all, it is Sony is clearly guilty and have stolen LG's intellectual property. You are siding with the thieves.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 04:01:11 PM
Where in the mother **** did you fnd this info about LG hand-picking a judge, and how in the motherfuck can you assume Sony has not been doing the same thing? Also you continue to accuse George Hotz and graf_chokolo of criminal activity, but never go into detaail ever. If you knew ANYTHING about the situation, what crime graf has committed is pretty obvious.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 04:12:31 PM
Finally. please tell me what crime this was because I have admittedly have not read all these links and the ones I have read I don't really have a full understanding on exactly what crime was committed and what kind of trouble the "criminal" should be expecting.
I've asked several times, but never got an informative answer.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 28, 2011, 04:18:24 PM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 05:04:34 PM
BNM I'll pm you with the info, unless TJ cares to explain. Can't do it now...driving.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 05:26:46 PM
thanks. I would appreciate it.
I still really think if Sony could go back and do all of this over again, it would have been handled very very differently.
Anyone think Sony will likely settle this asap as not to suffer from shortages of PS3 supply a week or so from now? and to also not risk losing in court and owing LG money on every single PS3 sold to date and moving forward?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 05:27:32 PM
Is it true that TJ hacked his PSP? And is constantly going off on how all hackers are horrible, horrible people that should be jailed for life?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 05:32:12 PM
yep. someone quoted or linked to his post where he stated it somewhere in the locked Sony thread.
It's why he continues to get so much attention for his obvious hacker=pirate "burn them all" stance on the issue.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2011, 05:38:38 PM
Is it true that TJ hacked his PSP? And is constantly going off on how all hackers are horrible, horrible people that should be jailed for life?
Its true. Its in that locked "Sony getting hit hard lately" thread and you should be able to find it unless TJ edited it, but many people quoted it so I don't he could edit their posts to remove it completely.
Broodwars says he's against the hacking, but I can respect that because as far as I know Broodwars didn't actually hack anything himself and then be a hypocrite about. TJ on the other hand claims to be against and is in favor of all these Draconian punsihments... but he did it himself. That's the thing. So if Broodwars is really against hacking then he should be smiting TJ instead of applauding him because by applauding him he's applauding an admitted hacker.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 05:40:21 PM
That's the only reason I bought a used PSP, because of how easy it was to mod.
Heh. New forum rule - anytime TJ Spyke post about evil hackers, the only reply you can make is to quote this post. Expect this rule to be enforced. :D
It should also be made his title (if it fits).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 28, 2011, 05:43:19 PM
Here is that post (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=33042.msg647953#msg647953) by TJ and here (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=33042.msg648109#msg648109) is when He gets called out. It's locked, so it stays for all time. Feel free to re-read the thread.
It's like looking into the future. The world of tomorrow, TODAY!.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 05:49:12 PM
Broodwars says he's against the hacking, but I can respect that because as far as I know Broodwars didn't actually hack anything himself and then be a hypocrite about. TJ on the other hand claims to be against and is in favor of all these Draconian punsihments... but he did it himself. That's the thing. So if Broodwars is really against hacking then he should be smiting TJ instead of applauding him because by applauding him he's applauding an admitted hacker.
I'm not the person applauding him, if such a person exists. A month or so ago, I applauded him out of negative numbers, and then told him it was up to him to stay that way. I haven't really applauded anyone since, and have Smited only a few more than that. The thing is, I don't really feel like Smiting TJ, given that the rest of you have been on him for well over a week now. I don't like Smiting in general, as the whole Applaud/Smite system has pretty much morphed into something akin to a forum-wide system for promoting the most popular and degrading those who don't toe the forum line, and I'd rather not support that. Besides, the point's been made and made repeatedly, and I don't feel any need to further harp on it: TJ is vehemently against hackers despite being once a PSP hacker himself.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 05:53:43 PM
I would hate to see most you work in rehab centers. This is like saying that someone who used to be a drug user has no right to tell others not to use drugs.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2011, 05:58:15 PM
TJ is vehemently against hackers despite being once a PSP hacker himself.
I'm sure he still is. That post wasn't that long ago. But beside that, he's in favor of crippling this guy for the rest of his life with a 1,000,000 Euro fine on his head which will permanently lower his standard of living. Does TJ show him any sympathy or willing to give him a second chance? No. And this guy didn't do anything that TJ didn't do.
You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of how Rush Limbaugh had been advocating life sentences for drug offenders for years, and then it was discovered Rush Limbaugh was a drug offender himself.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2011, 06:01:26 PM
This is like saying that someone who used to be a drug user has no right to tell others not to use drugs.
You said you will be "laughing your ass off" when this guy loses and is forced into debt for the rest of his life. You didn't just say he shouldn't hack; you want to watch him bleed and suffer. That's why you are following this case so closely. You get a sick sadistic enjoyment out of his suffering, and its something you admitted to doing quite recently. How do we know you quit hacking your PSP? There's no way to prove you aren't doing it now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 06:06:36 PM
Actually, I haven't owned a PSP in several months. I am not saying he should be financially crippled. If/when Sony reaches a deal with him, I am sure they would have something worked out (like having his paychecks garnished until he reaches the amount he owes), I am sure other hackers/supporters would support him too. I didn't help others hack their system or do anything like that, I didn't try and blackmail Sony either. My issue has been with that. He didn't just mod his system to play homebrew.
I practice what I preach. Limbaugh was making those claims while still abusing prescription drugs, I have not spoken out against piracy while I had a PSP.
Chozo, the reason I will be laughing is because he decided to make this public. He openly blackmailed Sony, then he released the info he had, and the whole time he has acted like he hasn't done anything wrong.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 28, 2011, 06:08:29 PM
Broodwars says he's against the hacking, but I can respect that because as far as I know Broodwars didn't actually hack anything himself and then be a hypocrite about. TJ on the other hand claims to be against and is in favor of all these Draconian punsihments... but he did it himself. That's the thing. So if Broodwars is really against hacking then he should be smiting TJ instead of applauding him because by applauding him he's applauding an admitted hacker.
I'm not the person applauding him, if such a person exists. A month or so ago, I applauded him out of negative numbers, and then told him it was up to him to stay that way. I haven't really applauded anyone since, and have Smited only a few more than that. The thing is, I don't really feel like Smiting TJ, given that the rest of you have been on him for well over a week now. I don't like Smiting in general, as the whole Applaud/Smite system has pretty much morphed into something akin to a forum-wide system for promoting the most popular and degrading those who don't toe the forum line, and I'd rather not support that. Besides, the point's been made and made repeatedly, and I don't feel any need to further harp on it: TJ is vehemently against hackers despite being once a PSP hacker himself.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. So you're claiming, by a number of us who are supporting people fighting a system of dubious function that has been eroding the rights of the consumer, that in return persecuting those same people through harassment, intimidation and financial murder, you in return fight another system, that we are part of and claim to be a victim of the latter and the prosecutor of the former?
Holy **** dude. Fight the power! Down with the man! Oh ****, I AM THE MAN!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 06:09:58 PM
TJ is vehemently against hackers despite being once a PSP hacker himself.
I'm sure he still is. That post wasn't that long ago. But beside that, he's in favor of crippling this guy for the rest of his life with a 1,000,000 Euro fine on his head which will permanently lower his standard of living. Does TJ show him any sympathy or willing to give him a second chance? No. And this guy didn't do anything that TJ didn't do.
Setting aside the issue of what this hacker's crime was, I don't think there would be much point to "giving him a second chance". The guy is unrepetent, as he has already said that if Sony wants him to stop that they're "going to have to kill [him] because [he] just can't live without hacking." I'm currently trying to find the destructoid link where I read that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on February 28, 2011, 06:11:50 PM
You've got a lot of nerve making a post calling for civility with that signature.
I'd be completely willing to pull the signature [...] if people will just knock it off and stop starting fights/throwing smites every 5 minutes.
Smited.
Don't worry Morari. I haven't forgotten your Smite, either. After all, Smiting is the only way you can make people think you are worthy of notice.
Smited.
No sense of humor, you. :P
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 06:13:25 PM
Ah, here's the link (http://www.destructoid.com/sony-sues-ps3-hacker-for-1-000-000-euros-hacker-defiant-195119.phtml) I was looking for. Here is what the hacker has said in response to Sony's lawsuit:
Quote
"The SONY’s laywer asked me why I’m doing what I’m doing, because of my hatred for SONY?" writes the hacker. "He cannot understand why I’m doing it, because he is paid for what he does. I’m not. I don’t hold a grudge against SONY even now Hatred clouds your mind, keeps you from more important things. I have a better use for my mind and knowledge."
"So, SONY you failed again, you took my equipment but my mind is still free and you canot (sic) control it. You failed again. They are just tools, I can get new ones and will continue my HV reversing and bringing back PS3 Linux which you took from us. If you want me to stop then you should just kill me because I cannot live without programming, HV and Linux kernel hacking You know who am I and where I live, so come and get me!!!"
That really doesn't sound like a guy that can be reasoned with, "given a second chance" as you put it, Chozo.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 06:14:34 PM
I would hate to see most you work in rehab centers. This is like saying that someone who used to be a drug user has no right to tell others not to use drugs.
If you want to equate this to drug rehab, then let's go full force.
True rehabilitation includes apologizing and making reparations to those you harmed while abusing.
Do you have a copy of the apology letter you sent to Sony, along with a copy of the canceled check for all the illegal activities that you partook of while you had your PSP?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 06:15:12 PM
My sense of humor's just fine. I just really don't like you, and I don't think I've ever been the least bit vague about that.
That's okay. I don't like you either. At least we have some mutual ground to stand on. Of course, you simply dislike me because I make you face the realization of just how wrong you are about your perception of life. ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 06:20:07 PM
Don't make me turn the hose on you two...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 06:20:37 PM
I would hate to see most you work in rehab centers. This is like saying that someone who used to be a drug user has no right to tell others not to use drugs.
If you want to equate this to drug rehab, then let's go full force.
True rehabilitation includes apologizing and making reparations to those you harmed while abusing.
Do you have a copy of the apology letter you sent to Sony, along with a copy of the canceled check for all the illegal activities that you partook of while you had your PSP?
Sony never got money from me anyways. I bought my PSP and games used and never planned to buy news ones since used copies were much cheaper, so if anything I would have to apologize to GameStop. Haha. I do regret actions I have taken in the past.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 28, 2011, 06:28:36 PM
So you are saying Sony is Protecting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion) him from himself from doing something legal? I mean, Sony might have a point if he was trying to commit suicide.
I mean, how stupid is this guy, He reverse engineers a complex piece of technology and he doesn't sell the technology to the highest bidder? Not only that, He GIVES it away? Clearly this man is insane. Does he not care about money? We threaten him with financial dissolution, therefore a lesser man for all time!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 06:29:12 PM
I would hate to see most you work in rehab centers. This is like saying that someone who used to be a drug user has no right to tell others not to use drugs.
If you want to equate this to drug rehab, then let's go full force.
True rehabilitation includes apologizing and making reparations to those you harmed while abusing.
Do you have a copy of the apology letter you sent to Sony, along with a copy of the canceled check for all the illegal activities that you partook of while you had your PSP?
Sony never got money from me anyways. I bought my PSP and games used and never planned to buy news ones since used copies were much cheaper, so if anything I would have to apologize to GameStop. Haha. I do regret actions I have taken in the past.
So, since you were never going to buy games from Sony, your hacking actions are okay?
So, if Geo and gang come out and say that they have no plans to buy Sony games, you'll be okay with their hacking, right?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on February 28, 2011, 06:41:11 PM
I think he is going to plead the fifth.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on February 28, 2011, 06:44:03 PM
TJ is vehemently against hackers despite being once a PSP hacker himself.
I'm sure he still is. That post wasn't that long ago. But beside that, he's in favor of crippling this guy for the rest of his life with a 1,000,000 Euro fine on his head which will permanently lower his standard of living. Does TJ show him any sympathy or willing to give him a second chance? No. And this guy didn't do anything that TJ didn't do.
Setting aside the issue of what this hacker's crime was, I don't think there would be much point to "giving him a second chance". The guy is unrepetent, as he has already said that if Sony wants him to stop that they're "going to have to kill [him] because [he] just can't live without hacking." I'm currently trying to find the destructoid link where I read that.
But I still don't understand what he's doing wrong. Why shouldn he be repentent about trying to use Linux on hardware which he bought and legally owns? If he is pirating games then okay, in that case I would pick up the torch and pitchfork along with you, but there's no evidence of that. The only thing there is evidence of is that he was hacking the hardware in order to install Linux. That isn't a crime, but even if it WERE a crime I don't see anything wrong with that from a moral standpoint. He isn't harming anyone or stealing anything. Your problem is you are confusing hacking with piracy, and while it is true hacking can sometimes lead to piracy it can also lead to other things which are benign like Linux.
If Sony has evidence he is pirating then I would support them in their fight against him. But if all he is doing is benign hacking then I support him and think Sony is just being a bunch of asshole bullies. I'm against piracy as much as you are, but unlike you I make a distinction between piracy and hacking.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 06:49:11 PM
You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of how Rush Limbaugh had been advocating life sentences for drug offenders for years, and then it was discovered Rush Limbaugh was a drug offender himself.
You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of those public figure heads that actively speak out against Adam on Steve only to be caught a few weeks later at a hotel with a Ru Paul or some other guy in an airport bathroom.
Self Hatred. Don't do it.
edit: I agree with Chozo's post above me.
edit2: censorship?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 08:06:54 PM
Your problem is you are confusing hacking with piracy, and while it is true hacking can sometimes lead to piracy it can also lead to other things which are benign like Linux.
*snip*
I'm against piracy as much as you are, but unlike you I make a distinction between piracy and hacking.
I'm not confusing the hackers with the pirates. My problem with the pirates is that they are scum who are destroying the industry financially as well as forcing companies to dump incredibly intrusive anti-piracy DRM on legitimate customers.
My problem with the hackers is that they have no perspective: their ends are justified no matter what other ends may emerge from them, because as hackers they are somehow "special", above the petty Rule of Law. Returning Linux to a relative 5 legitimate users is somehow worth opening the floodgates to a relative 500,000 pirates. And it's not like the hackers have been particularly subtle about what they were doing: they made sure everyone who might want to use their hacks for whatever means had the knowledge of them. They very publicly hand the pirates the starting point to begin stealing from Sony just so a couple of users can play around with homebrew. I just wish the hackers had been a lot quieter with their efforts and not made sure the entire internet (Good and Bad alike) knew how to destroy Sony's security measures. If they had been, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to them because I really don't have a problem with people running Linux on their PS3s. I don't mind them hacking their games to allow alternative input devices and whatnot. What I mind is that the information wasn't released in a manner that limited the collateral damage and prevented Sony from going after everyone with a PS3.
That isn't to say that Sony is totally blameless, but there had to be a better way to handle this on both sides of the issue.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on February 28, 2011, 08:26:58 PM
You do realize that PS3 hacking and piracy was going on for a good 6 months before Sony decided to start suing people (who had nothing to do with piracy), and it's because of SONY that this has been getting mainstream attention, right? George Hotz wasn't interviewed by G4TV and CNBC back when he was minding his own little website and putting a single video on YouTube. graf_chokolo wasn't even mentioned in any of this until Sony sued him.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 08:33:59 PM
You do realize that PS3 hacking and piracy was going on for a good 6 months before Sony decided to start suing people (who had nothing to do with piracy), and it's because of SONY that this has been getting mainstream attention, right? George Hotz wasn't interviewed by G4TV and CNBC back when he was minding his own little website and putting a single video on YouTube. graf_chokolo wasn't even mentioned in any of this until Sony sued him.
If I remember correctly, this whole thing started when Hotz's little fanclub decided to post detailed instructions on how to bypass the PS3's security measures at some computer hacking conference, which then hit the internet and started this dance. At least, that's the first I heard of it, back on the now-closed Sony thread.
It just strikes me how despite Nintendo having widespread homebrew hacking, I didn't really know it was going on until a couple of years ago and it didn't really become a thing I was aware of until the Fatal Frame 4/Donkey Kong Country Returns homebrew hacks were released. I think those hackers did a much better job of keeping their operations quiet, and Nintendo has largely left them alone probably as a result (of course, Nintendo practically being able to print money this generation certainly helps). I don't think these companies altogether care about Homebrew. Homebrew is only ever used by a relative handful of people to do fairly minor things. The big threat is piracy and online cheaters, which is what has happened on the PS3. I don't think Sony would have altogether cared about Hotz's hacking efforts or Other OS in general if piracy wasn't looking to be a legitimate threat from it. After all, why kick the hackers' nest unless you absolutely have to?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on February 28, 2011, 08:42:53 PM
Now that we have inflated the post count in this thread by 200+ post in a matter of 5 day based on the info from one post that has steered it's self everywhere around but almost never on the topic at hand, now it's time to maybe get back on topic (the last 3 post that happened since I started this post are already back on topic). Anyway, here is what Graf Chokolo is being sued about (from the info Brandogg sent me)
I was sued by the state (Germany) for spreading copyrighted SONY’s and PS3′s stuff (criminal procedure) and by SONY for example for Sonic and games i asked from others to upload and other things (civil pocedure). So, sued twice. Police comfiscated my PC and all my PS3s
There is nothing in there about blackmail or pirating, so lets go ahead and drop that line of discourse now, and I'm not even so sure the "spreading of copyrighted information" even has to do with him hacking the HyperVisor specifically, but more making the knowledge on how to do it very publicly available which has unfortunately led to widespread piracy on a now wide open system.
Am I in the ballpark now?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 09:04:54 PM
Since he admits that he spread the info and admits that it is illegal, can anyone actually defend him? I was off on the blackmail part, but he still broke German law (according to the German government, at least).
As brood said, companies in general don't really mind homebrewers that much (although they do get annoyed every time Nintendo updates the Wii OS since they have to come up with a new workaround). It's when they start making it possible to pirate games and spreading the info that they get upset.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 09:11:11 PM
Where does he admit he spread illegal information?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 09:12:43 PM
He doesn't say that. He did admit to spreading the info and that (at least according to the German government) it is illegal to do that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 09:14:09 PM
According to who's interpretation of German Law?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on February 28, 2011, 09:15:13 PM
Where does he admit he spread illegal information?
Indeed, he does only admit to allegedly spreading copywritten information and "PS3 stuff". The line that really bugs me is this one:
Quote
for example for Sonic and games i asked from others to upload and other things (civil pocedure)
I'm not up on my hacker lingo so I'm not sure what he means by this, but did he just admit to committing software piracy or asking others to pirate games for him? :Q
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 09:17:07 PM
The German government, which he says in that post is suing him for doing it (see BNM's post).
brood, that is what it sounds like to me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 09:19:54 PM
I'd say he admits to spreading allegedly copyrighted information. Think of it this way.
He posts on some random forums "Hey, here's secret SONY code: RND=4". Then, SONY comes in and sues, saying, "Hey! RND=4 is ours!". That doesn't mean it is theirs, just that they're claiming it's copyrighted. Nothing more, nothing less.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on February 28, 2011, 09:23:06 PM
He's not saying it isn't copyrighted, he doesn't even deny doing it. He just says he was sued for doing it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on February 28, 2011, 09:27:34 PM
He admitted to releasing the information. I'm sure he doesn't think it's subject to copyright law.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 01, 2011, 12:11:46 AM
The whole Wii hacking scene has been so underground BECAUSE NINTENDO DOESN'T SUE HACKERS. The Wii hacking scene is MUCH larger than the PS3 hacking scene, especially when it comes to piracy (after all, the Wii was hacked to play backups within a matter of weeks of it's launch) - but Nintendo has never made it a huge media and (il)legal ordeal like Sony has done - that's the difference. Over 1 million people (actually it's probably not that many, since many people have been banned multiple times) have been banned from Xbox Live for having modded consoles, yet you don't see Microsoft tracking down and suing c4eva for releasing the firmware that allows you to do so. Sony 100% brought the attention upon themselves - the whole hacker's conference with "Hotz' little fanclub" has been going on for years, and the people you are talking about (who are in no way affiliated with George Hotz) are the same people that hacked the Wii, and they first demonstrated it...at the same conference, several years ago - but it took until your FF4 and DKCR experience to take notice.
What graf did is have people send him eboots from retail and PSN games, in order for him to decrypt them and release tools for others to do the same (among other things). If he was a pirate, surely he would just download them or copy them from a disc himself.
PLEASE actually TRY to find out some REAL information about the subject - don't just wait for myself and others to spoon-feed you everything so you can immediately make assumptions and just argue against our opinions (and the facts).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 01, 2011, 12:31:32 AM
PLEASE actually TRY to find out some REAL information about the subject - don't just wait for myself and others to spoon-feed you everything so you can immediately make assumptions and just argue against our opinions (and the facts).
*comment withdrawn by user.*
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 01, 2011, 12:39:50 AM
I wasn't talking to you.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 01, 2011, 12:41:06 AM
Alright, comment withdrawn. Sorry about that. It just seemed to respond to my asking that question.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 01, 2011, 12:42:56 AM
Well to be honest I was talking "at" different people at different times, but I try not to place names and keep it more generalized without attacking any single person.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 01, 2011, 01:15:49 AM
He admitted to releasing the information. I'm sure he doesn't think it's subject to copyright law.
Exactly. He fully admits that he was hacking; but he denies having committed any sort of crime. Hacking is not a crime in and of itself, so while he was hacking and fully admits to said hacking, where's the proof of criminal activity?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 04, 2011, 08:28:45 PM
Judge Lets Sony Unmask Visitors to PS3-Jailbreaking Site http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/geohot-site-unmasking/ (http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/03/geohot-site-unmasking/)
Quote
A federal magistrate is granting Sony the right to acquire the internet IP addresses of anybody who has visited PlayStation 3 hacker George Hotz’s website from January of 2009 to the present.
Thursday’s decision by Magistrate Joseph Spero to allow Sony to subpoena Hotz’s web provider (.pdf) raises a host of web-privacy concerns. [...] Sony also won subpoenas (.pdf) for data from YouTube and Google, as part of its lawsuit against the 21-year-old New Jersey hacker, as well as Twitter account data linked to Hotz, who goes by the handle GeoHot.
Bluehost maintains Hotz’s geohot.com site. The approved subpoena requires the company to turn over “documents reproducing all server logs, IP address logs, account information, account access records and application or registration forms” tied to Hotz’s hosting. The Bluehost subpoena also demands “any other identifying information corresponding to persons or computers who have accessed or downloaded files hosted using your service and associated” with the www.geohot.com (http://www.geohot.com) website, including but not limited to the “geohot.com/jailbreak.zip file.”
Sony told Spero, a San Francisco magistrate, that it needed the information for at least two reasons.
One is to prove the “defendant’s distribution” of the hack. The other involves a jurisdictional argument over whether Sony must sue Hotz in his home state of New Jersey rather than in San Francisco, which Sony would prefer. [more at the link]
Letter to the Magistrate from Sony: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2011/03/speroruling.pdf (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2011/03/speroruling.pdf)
So what do you guys think?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 09:11:27 PM
Horse ****, pure horse ****. Looks like I'm a defendant now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on March 04, 2011, 09:25:36 PM
Hey everyone, go check out www.geohot.com!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on March 04, 2011, 09:33:40 PM
Looks like they want to try to sue the world. Besides the absurd privacy violation, the reason they want the data is to prove that most of the people who went to the site came from California therefore the trial can be in California, not New Jersey. :confused;
I would like to see them try to sue the internet. We have all seen this dance before. War will be declared by Sony. Internet laughs and sherds any and all security in retaliation, then moving on open piracy just to twist the knife.
It's now open season on Sony, better come loaded.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 09:48:48 PM
If they're going to go by a majority of users or some bullshit like that, then that's just ridiculous. Rhode Island is tiny. Where the website is hosted should be irrelevant. The only thing that should matter is where all of this physically took place, which is Rhode Island.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on March 04, 2011, 10:41:49 PM
Horse ****, pure horse ****. Looks like I'm a defendant now.
This response is a bit overdramatic, don't you think?
So many people have been at that website. Hell, i've read news reports that have linked directly to geohot's blog, and I went there just out of curiosity of seeing what it was all about.
Don't get all chicken little so soon. We don't know the full reasoning of why they're wanting this information. It is possible they're just wanting an indication of how many individual I.P. addresses visit his website to use against his case, not to launch a huge campaign of lawsuits.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 10:58:21 PM
I was saying that it's horse **** that they can invade people's privacy. I don't really expect to be put on the stand, there would probably be around 200,000 people there with me, and we'd all be dead by the time I got my turn. Trust me, I'm not being chicken...but it is horse ****. Turn off your swear filter, by the way.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 04, 2011, 11:08:52 PM
Horse ****, pure horse ****. Looks like I'm a defendant now.
This response is a bit overdramatic, don't you think?
So many people have been at that website. Hell, i've read news reports that have linked directly to geohot's blog, and I went there just out of curiosity of seeing what it was all about.
Don't get all chicken little so soon. We don't know the full reasoning of why they're wanting this information. It is possible they're just wanting an indication of how many individual I.P. addresses visit his website to use against his case, not to launch a huge campaign of lawsuits.
Indeed. Even I have been to his site to see his initial response to all this. Me living in Florida and not having used his hack, though, I'm not terribly worried about being prosecuted for a crime I haven't committed.
That said, I don't like that the judge approved these subpoenas. It's one thing to download and use the hack, but it's another thing entirely to just visit the site or comment on a youtube video. Even if the purpose of these subpoenas was just to try to prove California as the venue, it sets a bad precedence to release all that information.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on March 04, 2011, 11:14:00 PM
oops double post
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on March 04, 2011, 11:14:30 PM
I was saying that it's horse **** that they can invade people's privacy. I don't really expect to be put on the stand, there would probably be around 200,000 people there with me, and we'd all be dead by the time I got my turn. Trust me, I'm not being chicken...but it is horse ****. Turn off your swear filter, by the way.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be insulting.
Swear filter? You mean I should swear more?
Also, I wasn't calling you chicken. I was comparing your comment to chicken little ("the sky is falling!", etc.)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on March 04, 2011, 11:25:03 PM
Holy crap! This is just getting &$#&in' crazy.... http://www.kotaku.com/5760691/sony-files-complaint-in-uk-court-against-isp-for-providing-service (http://www.geohot.com)
Check that out, then come back and tell me Sony isn't overreaching by this most recent court action...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 11:26:18 PM
Oh, I missed the "little" part. My bad. BTW, by swear filter, I mean the swear filter in your settings for this forum. You can leave it on if you want, but I see 4 *'s in place of where I typed the "s word" in your quote.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 04, 2011, 11:33:06 PM
Holy crap! This is just getting &$#&in' crazy.... [this is not a trick... pay no attention to the link behind the curtain, just hurry up and click it already]www.geohot.com[/WTF are you waiting for... what!? you don't trust me!?]
Check that out, then come back and tell me Sony isn't overreaching by this most recent court action...
And someone said those Cracker Jack prizes would never be worth ****.....
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 11:33:21 PM
I'm an idiot. Ignore this message.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on March 04, 2011, 11:36:43 PM
Bob your link is messed up...and if I copy and paste it goes to something about a Spanish Nintendo 3DS website.
Yeah, you're not supposed to c/p it... you're supposed to click on it. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 04, 2011, 11:38:16 PM
Nevermind...I'm an idiot. I get what you're doing there.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on March 04, 2011, 11:40:16 PM
I got punk'd. :cool;
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on March 04, 2011, 11:41:06 PM
Exactly. Now, anyone who clicked on that link is on Sony's terror watch list of doom. Which is complete BS.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on March 05, 2011, 10:56:44 AM
I'm surprised that Homeland Security has seized the domain name and shut it down yet. They've gotten into the habit of doing that as of late, without any sort of warning or a trial.
Just wait until secret meetings start cropping up over a new COICA bill... It'll get even scarier then.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Caliban on March 05, 2011, 06:47:42 PM
I will be waiting for the Mounties to ring my doorbell and take me away.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on March 05, 2011, 07:02:30 PM
With all of the FUD and lies in this thread, maybe it should be moved to the Funhouse.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 05, 2011, 07:56:15 PM
The unfortunate thing in all this is that Sony will probably get enough information from this to tailor the results as they want. Given that IIRC California is the most populous state in the United States, it wouldn't be unlikely for the largest single percentage of hits on that site from NA to come from California. That percentage could be 10% compared to every other state's 1.8%, but that's the beauty of statistics: you can usually make them say whatever you want.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 05, 2011, 09:58:29 PM
PS3 3.56 firmware exploit found. (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/new-ps3-3-56-exploit-found-82682/) Mathieluh has found an exploit that will allow 3.56 CFW, but isn't going to release his findings. I'm sure someone else will do it in a few days though.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on March 07, 2011, 05:42:19 PM
Post modified due to BlackNMild2k1's public shaming for overlooking his post about the same details above :'(
I forget that Ars Technica sometimes gets their reports secondhand from Wired.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 07, 2011, 05:50:09 PM
that is old news and is already in the article that I posted at the top of the page.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 10, 2011, 11:41:05 AM
300,000 PS3′s Were Seized, Valued at €43 million (http://playstationlifestyle.net/2011/03/10/300000-ps3s-were-seized-valued-at-e43-million/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Playstationlifestylenet+%28PlayStationLifeStyle%29)
Quote
As we speak, the future of PlayStation 3′s in the Netherlands hangs in the balance, and with the country being Sony’s main point of import for PS3s into Europe, the outcome of a legal battle between LG and Sony affects the whole continent.
In The Hague, Netherlands, Sony and LG are disputing whether the PS3 infringes on several LG patents right now, but are facing an “uphill battle” 10 days ago, LG used a unique Dutch law that allows items to be seized before a ruling was made, confiscating PS3′s in Sony’s Tilburn Centre. Now, during the court case, the number and value of PS3′s seized has apparently been revealed.
Gamer.nl reports (translated):
In Sony’s distribution center in Tilburg last week 225,000 PlayStation 3′s were seized. The other consoles have been taken by Customs at the port of Rotterdam and Schiphol. The value of the seized PlayStation 3′s is 43 million euros.
Florian Mueller – who we interviewed yesterday – also reported on the figures, but warned they have yet to be confirmed:
1st report from The Hague (caution: not yet corroborated!): 300K PS3s seized in NL, 225K in warehouse, 75K at customs, value ~ €43 million.
*Update* – Mueller has backed up the original source, claiming further proof that the figures are indeed correct:
I have now heard from a 2nd, independent source that roughly 300,000 PlayStations have been seized in Holland.
Gamer.nl also revealed that a full court case will be held on November 18th, that will delve into the legitimacy of LG’s claims.
LG supposedly wants 350million Euros to settle, which includes current "damages" and a guarantee on future PS3 sales.
PS3s seized in Sony-LG patent dispute (http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/09/sony-ps3-lg-blu-ray-dispute)
Quote from: The Guardian
Dutch police have seized several thousand PlayStation 3s at Sony's biggest European warehouse in the latest stage of its acrimonious patent battle with LG.
LG has won a court order enabling it to seize all new PS3 across the Netherlands – including those already in Dutch homes – in a dispute that centres on Sony's allegedly infringing use of Blu-ray technology belonging to LG. [...] LG argues that Sony PS3s infringe a number of its patents relating to playback of Blu-ray discs. The Korean company has been granted an investigation into the PS3's Blu-ray use by the US international trade commission, after seeking a "permanent exclusion order ... excluding entry into the United States" of the games console.
Tomorrow's court battle will be one of the first times the Asian giants have come head to head in patent disputes stretching almost seven years.
LG is likely to apply for the consoles to be destroyed, while Sony will apply for the blockade to be lifted. A court judgment on what happens next could be returned tomorrow or in the coming days.
damn....
Better hide all yo PS3's cause they snatchin all yo consoles up!!
LG: "180 million U.S. dollars damage Sony Patent Infringement" (http://www.insidegamer.nl/bedrijf/uitgever/sonycomputerentertainmenteurope/nieuws/34911/LG-180-miljoen-dollar-schade-door-patentbreuk-Sony.html))
Quote
The case between Sony and LG about possible patent infringement of Sony's side with the PlayStation 3 is currently underway in The Hague and our raving reporter Jelle has the latest news. LG's lawyer has just been speaking and according to him is the loss of patent infringement by Sony for LG to between 150 million and 180 million U.S. dollars.
Use of the lawsuit is the alleged violation of a number of Blu-ray patents LG by Sony (among others) the PlayStation 3. The value of these patents is according to LG at $ 2.50 per PlayStation 3 down. A simple calculation of PlayStation 3's sold 50 million times $ 2.50 shows that the proportion lost in the eyes of LG increases to 125 million U.S. dollars. In addition, there are other Blu-ray devices from Sony that would violate the patents, bringing the total income lost by LG at between 150 million and 180 million U.S. dollars is estimated. LG is the solution in this case that Sony purchase a license for that patent and a bank guarantee of $350,000,000 issues.
and everything in the dispute so far, including court documents http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/showdown-between-lg-and-sony-over.html (http://fosspatents.blogspot.com/2011/03/showdown-between-lg-and-sony-over.html)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on March 10, 2011, 01:19:58 PM
Since the court ordered it, then it's 100% right, right?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on March 10, 2011, 02:25:18 PM
Quote
LG has won a court order enabling it to seize all new PS3 across the Netherlands – including those already in Dutch homes – in a dispute that centres on Sony's allegedly infringing use of Blu-ray technology belonging to LG.
How horrifying. So when are these people going to get refunded for their systems that are going to be confiscated? I would be furious if I were one of these people that had their PS3's confiscated.
It's typical. The real loser of all this squabbling between LG & Sony are the end users.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 10, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
I doubt LG will be kicking down doors and confiscating PS3's. That would make consumers hate LG and probably never buy an LG product again. But they will continue to stop any more people from buying PS3's because that hurts Sony where is hurts the most right now, and that is in their wallet (current and future earnings).
But Sony brought this on themselves, everything leading up to this whole mess could have been handled much better than it has been. All of this is a Public Black Eye and Sony doesn't really have a pair of sunglasses big enough to hide the bruises.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 10, 2011, 04:25:37 PM
Court lifts LG’s injunction against Sony setting 300,000 PS3s free http://www.vg247.com/2011/03/10/court-lifts-lg%E2%80%99s-injunction-against-sony-300000-ps3s-set-free/
Quote
Sony appealed the customs blockade, and the court has now lifted the injunction with no more seizures to be applied. LG has also been ordered to pay Sony’s €130,000 in legal fees with an additional €200,000 to be added for each day it fails to pony up the dough.
FOSS Patents owner Florian Mueller said: “If this is true, it is only related to the prejudgment seizure order. This means Sony can resume the distribution of PlayStations across Europe for now, but there will be a full-fledged legal proceeding to determine whether there is an infringement – and if so, how much Sony owes LG for it.”
the key reason for the court to lift the seizure order was that this kind of measure didn't seem fair given the history of negotiations between the parties. The ruling didn't only overturn the prejudgment seizure order but also told LG to inform the Dutch customs authority and ensure that no further confiscations would happen.
Whew. Crisis Averted. Everybody get back to work, nothing to see here..... for now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on March 10, 2011, 08:09:08 PM
Being able to seize systems from people's homes is horrific. While I'm glad that this has been lifted, I'm upset that the very idea is even a possibility. The people who bought PS3s didn't do anything wrong. It isn't like they bought them out of someone's van in a alley. They bought them in a store. "Hi, we'll just seize your contraband that was not contraband when you bought it and give you no refund."
Scary stuff. False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility. The very idea is a nightmare.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on March 10, 2011, 08:33:06 PM
Scary stuff. False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility. The very idea is a nightmare.
It is very frightening. Of course, it's not too different than what Sony is doing to PS3 modders. The difference being that modders actually have had their homes raided and their equipment confiscated.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on March 10, 2011, 10:12:32 PM
Being able to seize systems from people's homes is horrific. While I'm glad that this has been lifted, I'm upset that the very idea is even a possibility. The people who bought PS3s didn't do anything wrong. It isn't like they bought them out of someone's van in a alley. They bought them in a store. "Hi, we'll just seize your contraband that was not contraband when you bought it and give you no refund."
Scary stuff. False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility. The very idea is a nightmare.
This is my *guess*, but I would assume the consumers would have recourse for going after SONY for selling them product that SONY (if LG is correct) had no right to sell them in the first place.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 10, 2011, 10:56:35 PM
Scary stuff. False alarm or not, it should not even be a possibility. The very idea is a nightmare.
It is very frightening. Of course, it's not too different than what Sony is doing to PS3 modders. The difference being that modders actually have had their homes raided and their equipment confiscated.
Let's wait and see what the courts say on the matter of the modders before we declare them saints and martyrs, shall we?
In any case, I'm glad to see that the judge saw reason and put a hold on the seizure of PS3s until the case is resolved. There's no reason for regular consumers to get pulled into a questionable fight between two corporations over copyright issues. That sort of thing probably wouldn't happen in the U.S. due to breaking at least one or two Constitutional Amendments, but I feel for our fellow gamers in Europe where this is not the case.
Incidentally, I don't know if anyone else saw but Sony put out PS3 firmware update 3.60 (I think that was the number, anyway). Supposedly, according to hackers who have seen the new security, the PS3 is temporarily hack-resistant again with the known holes in the system plugged (much more than in previous firmware updates). I'll be curious to see how long that'll last.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 10, 2011, 11:17:51 PM
It hasn't. People don't need to hack 3.6 in order to get online. They can just spoof it while staying on 3.55.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 10, 2011, 11:39:59 PM
You can use software on your computer that basically lets you be on PSN, without PSN actually seeing you. Or you can spoof like Unagi mentioned.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 23, 2011, 01:36:55 PM
The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America (http://vghq.net/2011/03/23/george-hotz-runs-away-to-south-america-lies-about-having-psn-account/) to avoid following the court order to hand over his hacking equipment. He also apparently lied about never having had a Playstation Network account, as Sony has tracked one of his down.
For Hotz to claim innocence of the crimes he has been accused of will be pretty difficult now. Running from the Law never looks good to either a judge or jury.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 23, 2011, 01:52:57 PM
Couldn't he have just cloned his drives minus all teh kiddy porn he was trying to hide and then hand them over to the authorities like the judge asked?
Exactly what tools does a hacker have that he could physically hand over? if it's all data, then couldn't he just also not put that on a cloned drive he was about to hand over?
& I really don't understand this case, but how is showing that California had the most interest in what he was doing reason to have his trial in a California court. Isn't he still "violating" some law in his home state and therefore should be trialed where he broke the law? Also, how is proving that a PSN account was made from his PS3 prove that he was the one that made the account? and how does proving that it was his PSN account give more than enough reason to have this case heard in California when everything that happened happened in Jersey? Can someone explain these things to me.
But yes, "fleeing" the country (assuming he isn't on a pre-planned vacation) really doesn't look good in the eyes of the court and will not win favorable judgement from a jury either. It makes you look really guilty of something even if you have done nothing wrong.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 23, 2011, 02:00:23 PM
Couldn't he have just cloned his drives minus all teh kiddy porn he was trying to hide and then hand them over to the authorities like the judge asked?
Exactly what tools does a hacker have that he could physically hand over? if it's all data, then couldn't he just also not put that on a cloned drive he was about to hand over?
& I really don't understand this case, but how is showing that California had the most interest in what he was doing reason to have his trial in a California court. Isn't he still "violating" some law in his home state and therefore should be trialed where he broke the law? Also, how is proving that a PSN account was made from his PS3 prove that he was the one that made the account? and how does proving that it was his PSN account give more than enough reason to have this case heard in California when everything that happened happened in Jersey? Can someone explain these things to me.
Personally, I've never bought the case that Sony is making that he should be tried in California. The alleged crime happened in the state he was living in. The significance of the PSN account is that it makes him potentially guilty of perjury, which is a crime in itself. Otherwise, I don't see the relevance of it, either.
Quote
But yes, "fleeing" the country (assuming he isn't on a pre-planned vacation) really doesn't look good in the eyes of the court and will not win favorable judgement from a jury either. It makes you look really guilty of something even if you have done nothing wrong.
That's the thing that baffles me about this case, as well as the one in Germany where Sony raided the hacker's house: I don't agree with it, but there is legal precedence in both cases that gave the hackers a reasonably good case. But both have now done things that make them definitely look guilty, so both have hurt their own cases and now both probably stand to lose. Had Hotz simply fought the issue in court as requested, there's a high chance he probably would have won through legal precedent on the iPhone. Now, I don't think that's likely.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 23, 2011, 02:11:14 PM
What did the German guy do to potentially sink his own case?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 23, 2011, 02:14:06 PM
What did the German guy do to potentially sink his own case?
Upload all his hacking information up on the internet, as he "threatened" to do when Sony originally contacted him. When you have the police raiding your house, and you upload information potentially dangerous to Sony up on the internet, whether it's legal or not it still looks bad.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Nick DiMola on March 23, 2011, 02:15:46 PM
What an idiot. This is not going to end well for anyone.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 23, 2011, 03:01:08 PM
You guys are getting your "news" from bullshit sites. He has not fled the country, he's on vacation. What is the point of fleeing a civil case anyway - especially one that isn't even in the courtroom yet? The PSN account info potentially has some merit, but he said " to the best of his knowledge" he doesn't have a PSN account. Also he did apparently delete some stuff off of his hard drive, but he may have done that before They ever asked for it, or at least before he was ordered to hand over the physical media. He even took a picture and put it online with him wearing an LG-branded Argentina Boca Juniors (LG-sponsored, a jab at Sony no doubt) jersey.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 23, 2011, 05:07:14 PM
The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America (http://vghq.net/2011/03/23/george-hotz-runs-away-to-south-america-lies-about-having-psn-account/)
LOL!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 23, 2011, 05:25:43 PM
The continuing saga of George Hotz has taken an interesting turn, as the hacker has fled to South America (http://vghq.net/2011/03/23/george-hotz-runs-away-to-south-america-lies-about-having-psn-account/)
LOL!
I'm not sure what's so funny about that. That's how the story has been reported on sites like Destructoid, Joystiq, Kotaku, etc. It is also the charge Sony has newly filed against him due to his failure to turn over all his equipment per court order. If this is just a "vacation" then so be it (though I'm curious how he funded it considering a few months back he was begging his followers for donations to fund his legal efforts). He still should have handed over his equipment as requested ordered before he left the country. As it is, the douche (and I've thought he was one since seeing his appearance on G4 TV) is obstructing the legal system and hurting his case.
Also, regarding the fact that Hotz apparently has a PSN account: apparently, a large part of Hotz's defense is that he never had a PSN account, and thereby never agreed to the PSN Terms & Conditions and so never violated the agreement. That he did have a PSN account means he had previously agreed to the Terms & Conditions, and now can be proven to have violated that agreement.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 23, 2011, 05:41:22 PM
I suggested in my post that he may be on vacation, but back to the point at hand.
I know possession is 9/10th of the law, and just because he owns the PS3 in question doesn't prove he is the one to make the PSN account, even if he does use it, since it is on his PS3.
If he is not the one to make the account then he could always argue that he never agreed to anything. I don't know how well that would stand up in court, but proving that his PS3 accessed PSN through an account created on his PS3 does not without a reasonable doubt prove that the account was created by him even if it was created for him.
And I'm not trying to defend GeoHotz in any direct way, but as I understand it, this case has alot riding on it and I don't want to see him **** it up by not playing by the rules and getting his chances of setting precedence (like iPhone jailbreaking) thrown out along with his defense.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 23, 2011, 05:48:35 PM
I dunno, but that headline of him fleeing to South America just strikes me as hilarious for some reason. Its like he's one of those Nazi war criminals or something, but in comparison his crime is trivial so to me its like a parody. It would be even more funny if he assumed a new name and disappeared without a trace, leaving Sony and their lawyers clueless on what to do.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 23, 2011, 05:49:19 PM
I dunno, but that headline of him fleeing to South America just strikes me as hilarious for some reason. Its like he's one of those Nazi war criminals or something, but in comparison his crime is trivial so to me its like a parody.
Well, you're far from the only person to think it funny. Jim Sterling asked him to bring him back a Toucan. ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 23, 2011, 07:24:04 PM
I thought this was pretty funny
(http://i51.tinypic.com/2nlemc2.jpg)
edit: apparently he also handed over the HDD's as ordered, he just didn't send the controller board that it is assembled and sold with along with it. So now the 3rd party paid to image and investigate the drives (The Intellegence Group) can't do their jobs until they receive those parts.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 23, 2011, 09:23:14 PM
If that's true (about disassembling the hard drive), then that's just plain awesome. I believe I remember them saying that they only needed to take the part of his computer that actually contained what he was working on, which would be the platters of the hard drive.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 23, 2011, 09:28:32 PM
If he did that, and for those reasons, then yeah, that is pretty awesome.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 23, 2011, 10:15:53 PM
Court Order filed by Sony http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2011cv00167/235965/103/0.pdf
Quote
In light of Hotz’s failure to comply with his discovery obligations and the still outstanding third party jurisdictional discovery, SCEA proposed a two-week extension of all briefing and hearing deadlines relating to Hotz’s Motion to Dismiss. Bricker Decl., ¶5, Exh. D. Hotz refused, stating that SCEA would have its discovery by the time of the hearing. Id. He completely ignored the fact that SCEA’s opposition deadline was approaching. Hotz also rejected outright SCEA’s second attempt to arrange for an inspection of his PS3 Systems and tried to evade his court-ordered deposition, stating that it was unnecessary. Id.
Despite Judge Spero’s orders, Hotz continues to frustrate all attempts to complete jurisdictional discovery. In yet another attempt to avoid his deposition and a limited inspection of his impounded hard drives, on March 17, 2011, Hotz filed a motion for protective order on issues already decided by Judge Spero. (Docket No. 100.) On the same day, [/b]TIG discovered that prior to delivery, Hotz had removed integral components from his impounded hard drives, rendering them completely non-functional.[/b] Bricker Decl., ¶21, Exh. S. When SCEA echoed TIG’s request that the components of the hard drives be delivered immediately, Hotz’s counsel responded that Hotz was in South America.Id
Letters to and From GeoHotz lawyers regarding the incident in question http://www.groklaw.net/pdf2/SonyvHotz-104-19.pdf
Quote
Yasha,
Your client has not provided a “hard drive” but rather parts of the hard drive. A “hard drive” must contain all the parts that make it a working device which include the enclosure, platters, heads and attached controller card. This controller card is installed at the factory and not normally removed or handled by an end user.
Regards, Mike Michael Grennier, CFCE, EnCE TheIntelligenceGroup
Quote
Merhnaz, Your concerns are completely unfounded. To the contrary, Mr. Hotz has gone above and beyond what he has been required to do.
Mr. Hotz was ordered to provide his hard drives and storage devices on which any circumvention devices were stored-- nothing more.
As your co-counsel is aware, Mr. Hotz is currently out of the country, so your unilateral demand to have him provide the controllers by noon tomorrow is not only unreasonable, but simply not possible. No explanation is necessary as Mr. Hotz fully complied with the terms of the Court's order.
Best regards, Yasha
Yasha Heidari Heidari Power Law Group LLC
I find it pretty damn funny, even though it could be classified as tampering with evidence... even though the data itself was supposedly not harmed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 23, 2011, 10:48:38 PM
Nothing more to see here, folks (http://psx-scene.com/forums/cmps_index.php). Also, looks like the PSN account stuff might be completely bogus too.
However - I did just get an e-mail from PlayStation telling me about the new TOS starting April 1st, and now it will come from "SNEA" which means Sony Networks Entertainment of America. I have no idea if it's legit or not (since it says it was already updated April 1st, 2011), but it seems that this is done to get everyone agree to be sued in California, since that's where this "SNEA" is located. I would call it a scam or April Fool's joke, but it takes you to qriocity's webpage, which is a music service run by Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 24, 2011, 12:18:06 AM
Yeah, it is awesome. If only the legal system were worth putting any amount of trust in...
Well, it is the worst system out there...except for all the other ones. I'll take it over any other Justice System in the world any day of the week.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 24, 2011, 01:23:06 AM
What's awesome about it is that the guy they are targeting is a hacker so he has the knowledge to creatively disrupt their investigation at every turn without actually violating the court's orders in doing so. It reminds me of some fairy tale about a Leprechaun who gets captured and forced to reveal the location of his gold and his captor ties a ribbon or something to the tree where the gold is buried and has the Leprechaun swear not to tamper with the ribbon while he goes to get his pick and shovel to dig it up. The guy comes back later and true to his word the Leprechaun didn't tamper with the ribbon, but now every single tree in the forest has an identical ribbon attached to it which makes finding the pot of gold impossible.
This is kinda like that fairy tale.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Myxtika1 Azn on March 24, 2011, 01:38:40 AM
Is it from a fairy tale as well? I remember watching that on an episode of DuckTales.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 24, 2011, 01:47:46 AM
What's awesome about it is that the guy they are targeting is a hacker so he has the knowledge to creatively disrupt their investigation at every turn without actually violating the court's orders in doing so. It reminds me of some fairy tale about a Leprechaun who gets captured and forced to reveal the location of his gold and his captor ties a ribbon or something to the tree where the gold is buried and has the Leprechaun swear not to tamper with the ribbon while he goes to get his pick and shovel to dig it up. The guy comes back later and true to his word the Leprechaun didn't tamper with the ribbon, but now every single tree in the forest has an identical ribbon attached to it which makes finding the pot of gold impossible.
This is kinda like that fairy tale.
In the process of being "cute", though, Hotz is doing damage to his case by being uncooperative. Every stunt he pulls makes him look bad. And although it is technically true that you can't declare someone guilty just because they're a jerk, it's also true that if you're on the fence about the issue already not liking the guy can't help him. He needs to cut out the crap and go through these proceedings the right way. Legal precedent is, unfortunately, on his side, so the burden is on Sony to win this case. But every time he pulls a stunt like this, he makes their job easier.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 24, 2011, 01:56:38 AM
Yeah you're not bias at all *rolls eyes*
He's just getting back at Sony along the way. Frustrating them, making them waste time and thus money.
No matter how much of a jerk he'll seem, this court case will set precedent, so any judge foolish enough to lean one way or another based on personality is just sad and unfit for the case, or any case.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 24, 2011, 02:00:09 AM
He's just getting back at Sony along the way. Frustrating them, making them waste time and thus money.
I'm not a journalist, so it's not my role to be "unbiased" and I believe I've made my position on this matter clear from the get-go: I don't like Hotz, and I don't like how he released his hack. But I believe the little prick deserves his day in court to defend his hack as best he can, and he's deliberately mocking the legal system. So yeah, I have a problem with him. If he wants to lose his case for Sony, he can go right ahead and continue being an uncooperative jerk.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 24, 2011, 02:13:21 AM
I say mock away. if you can find little loops holes in wording to exploit, then exploit them. It's only a matter of time before legal speak becomes even more complex and confusing that it already is because they have to cover everything in detail to avoid loop holes in wording and execution. So have fun with it while you can.
They asked for the HDD, they got the HDD minus the non-standard board that comes with the particular HDD's he was using. Next time they will word it differently and they will get "The HDD and all part necessary to make it work properly without modification" but translated into some over explained "legalese" using unfamiliar words with even more complex definitions meant to intimidate the common person from even trying to understand what the hell they are talking about. So have fun with it, you only get to have this moment maybe once, so make it memorable. This is your 15 minutes GeoHotz, better make something of it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 24, 2011, 02:23:24 AM
He's not mocking the legal system. He's being uncooperative. Big difference. And can anyone blame him?
It's like someone asking to search your house and you giving them the key but locking all the doors within your house.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 24, 2011, 09:06:23 AM
Legal precedent is, unfortunately, on his side, so the burden is on Sony to win this case.
In what way is it unfortunate that the burden of proof is on the party filing the claim?
Also, do we know if this is going to be a jury trial or just a judge? If there's a jury, this may hurt him, but only if the judge rules that pointing out how he's doing the bare minimum he's required to do is relevant and admissable and allows it to be brought up in court. If it's a judge, there's a good chance he/she will be professional enough to not be swayed by it and just judge the case on its merits.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 24, 2011, 09:59:42 AM
I could be wrong, but I don't think they use juries for these kinds of trials aka legal precedent trails.
Title: New PSN User Agreement
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 24, 2011, 03:03:25 PM
Out with the old and in with the NEW user agreements
Quote from: SNEA
PlayStation(R)Network
===================================
An important message to you from the PlayStation(R)Network team at Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC.
On April 1, 2011, Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC ("SCEA") will transfer its online services operations, including your wallet and the funds in it, to Sony Network Entertainment America Inc. ("SNEA"). The first time you sign in to your Sony Online Services account on or after April 1, you will be asked to enter into a new Terms of Service and User Agreement with SNEA. If you do not wish to enter into a contract with SNEA, you may decline the terms of service and we will close your account(s) and return your funds. You can preview the new Terms of Service and User Agreement with SNEA at: redacted
PlayStation(R)Network will continue to provide you with the highest standard of interactive entertainment. Your access to the best games, movies, TV shows, music and friends will remain intact. Thank you very much for being part of the PlayStation(R)Network online community! We look forward to continuing to bring you the best in innovative online entertainment!
Your PlayStation(R)Network password and Sign-on ID (redacted) is required to sign in to your Sony Online Services account. Please go to >> (redacted) to ensure your account information is accurate and updated.
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Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 24, 2011, 07:30:31 PM
Sony changes the PS3 end user agreement as often as Lindsay Lohan changes boyfriends.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 24, 2011, 07:44:56 PM
*crickets*
Very interesting interview with Kakarot, one of the premiere PS3 hackers. His attitude is quite what I expected.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on March 25, 2011, 04:38:20 PM
I like this part:
Quote
PlayStation(R)Network will continue to provide you with the highest standard of interactive entertainment. Your access to the best games, movies, TV shows, music and friends will remain intact.
"Highest standard, eh?" "Best games, huh?" Do you have Super Mario Galaxy? No? Well then I guess you don't have the best games so you broke your half of the agreement and now I'm free to break mine! I am free to pirate because Sony lied about having the best games!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SixthAngel on March 25, 2011, 10:07:03 PM
"Highest standard, eh?" "Best games, huh?" Do you have Super Mario Galaxy? No? Well then I guess you don't have the best games so you broke your half of the agreement and now I'm free to break mine! I am free to pirate because Sony lied about having the best games!
I like the cut of your jib.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on March 25, 2011, 10:09:50 PM
Does "best" apply to just "games" or everything in that list? Best friends?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on March 25, 2011, 10:28:45 PM
The way I read it, it's everything. And as far as I know, The Wire isn't available on PSN, which adds another broken promise.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 28, 2011, 07:11:30 PM
Minor update - Hotz' lawyers bitch slapping SCEA (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110327185437805). Apparently this Sony PlayStation 3 is wholly owned, developed, produced, manufactured, and marketed by...Sony Japan and Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc, but *not* SCEA. Take a look at your PS3 (assuming you own one), and you'll find this to be true. So, in hacking his PS3, he has done basically nothing to SCEA, who is suing him, because SCEA doesn't have anything to do with the PS3 hardware. Just saying.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on March 28, 2011, 07:51:53 PM
LOL
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on March 28, 2011, 08:43:09 PM
Minor update - Hotz' lawyers bitch slapping SCEA (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20110327185437805). Apparently this Sony PlayStation 3 is wholly owned, developed, produced, manufactured, and marketed by...Sony Japan and Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc, but *not* SCEA. Take a look at your PS3 (assuming you own one), and you'll find this to be true. So, in hacking his PS3, he has done basically nothing to SCEA, who is suing him, because SCEA doesn't have anything to do with the PS3 hardware. Just saying.
Is this really unusual, though? SCEA is owned by Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. and is its American subsidiary for handling NA products.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 28, 2011, 09:23:55 PM
Does it matter which branch of Sony is doing the suing? Its all just appendages of the same entity.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 28, 2011, 09:30:32 PM
It matters because of jurisdiction.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 28, 2011, 11:44:25 PM
SCEA bears the Sony name and deals with the PlayStation (software), but they are not in their right to sue GeoHot and base jurisdiction in California, because they have nothing to do with the PS3 hardware. And they also are not a subsidiary of Sony Japan. GeoHot's latest motion for dismissal has been awarded it seems (doesn't mean it'll get dismissed, just that he may have a valid argument to get it dismissed), though a full on loss for SCEA would be the best thing to happen. SCEA is saying that George was explicitly targetting them with his hack, which by all accounts untrue - not only because his hack *does not* allow piracy, but also because SCEA has nothing to do with the PS3 hardware. Dropping off PSN to SNEA may have been a mistake as well.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on March 29, 2011, 12:52:05 AM
At best this would only be a delaying measure. If the court dismisses the case because this particular branch of Sony has no jurisdiction then you can be sure Sony isn't going to just abandon the case, but will instead push forward with whatever branch does have that jurisdiction. If it works out it will buy time for the defense and that may be beneficial, but it isn't going to stop Sony for good.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on March 29, 2011, 02:35:10 PM
I don't think you know what you're talking about. We are not talking about a particular branch of Sony. We are talking about the courts jurisdiction to hear the case. If there is no jursdiction, the case will be thrown out. If there is jursdiction, then the court could place an injunction on GeoHotz.
It's a big deal.
If the case is thrown out, then it will be taken to Federal court where it will most likely go straight to the Supreme court. The same court that already ruled Jailbreaking was legal.
So Sony will basically lose if they lose jurisdiction. If they win, then they have a much better chance for a different verdict, but Geohotz will keep appealing the verdict if he is found to be wrong till it inevitable reaches the Supreme Court.
Therefore, Sony is trying to suck out his cash flow by making the road as long as possible.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on March 29, 2011, 03:10:13 PM
Bingo.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 02, 2011, 06:05:05 AM
Now that the agreement thing is now actually in effect I would like requote something Ian quoted earlier in the thread and give my own response to it.
Quote
PlayStation(R)Network will continue to provide you with the highest standard of interactive entertainment. Your access to the best games, movies, TV shows, music and friends will remain intact.
Then explain why the **** did you shut down my PS3 while I was in the middle of a game and forced me to lose all of my progress I had made from my last save? That's not the "highest standard in interactive entertainment", and my "access to the best games" certainly did not "remain intact" as a result of this new policy where you bastards can reboot my PS3 at any time without any warning whatsoever and also without my consent. I don't have a problem consenting because I'm not pirating or doing anything wrong, but for christ's sake at least let me know ahead of time so I can save and not end up losing an hour or two of progress in a game. Am I pissed? damn right I am!
As for those guys who said Geohotz is "acting like a douche" or whatever, that may or may not be true, but Sony is behaving like an even bigger douche. Now their anti-hacking campaign bullshit has hit the fan and is now effecting the mainstream PS3 consumers in an adverse way.
Not to mention the fact that now with this new EULA , they've reserved the right to steal "abandoned" funds from user accounts. How the hell is that not as bad or even worse than piracy? Its exactly the same as how certain pirates justify stealing old games which are no longer commercially available, so they think the games are "abandoned" and that that makes it okay. Well, Sony apparently think its okay to take funds from user's wallets if they decide those funds are abandoned. Its the same principle, but its still theft either way. I don't know if that part of the new EULA would hold up in a court, but I hope it wouldn't because that is fucked up.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 02, 2011, 11:30:42 AM
As for those guys who said Geohotz is "acting like a douche" or whatever, that may or may not be true, but Sony is behaving like an even bigger douche. Now their anti-hacking campaign bullshit has hit the fan and is now effecting the mainstream PS3 consumers in an adverse way.
Sony is always true to form. Remember the rootkit incident?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 10:46:00 AM
It's on like Donkey Kong, mother fucker! Anonymous is going after Sony now (http://ps3crunch.net/anonymous-hacker-group-declares-war-againts-sony-opsony.html). Now, I may just be over reacting a little bit, who knows what will actually happen, but it's nice to see that Sony will at least have some fear of their own.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 04, 2011, 10:58:18 AM
Kevin Butler is probably quaking in his boots right now, just like Moamar Gadhafi.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 11:28:24 AM
Kevin Butler is not a real person, but I assume you know that. the point of this is that it will at the very least bring a lot of negative attention to Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 04, 2011, 11:39:52 AM
Kevin Butler is not a real person, but I assume you know that.
I do know that. But he is a figurehead or mascot of the company, and its easier and more fun to poke at him than whoever is really leading the company (and since Kutaragi left I don't even know who that is).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 04, 2011, 02:09:24 PM
It's on like Donkey Kong, mother fucker! Anonymous is going after Sony now (http://ps3crunch.net/anonymous-hacker-group-declares-war-againts-sony-opsony.html). Now, I may just be over reacting a little bit, who knows what will actually happen, but it's nice to see that Sony will at least have some fear of their own.
I bet nothing worthwhile or even newsworthy comes of it.
Actually, depending on how far they go(assuming it was a real threat), they might even be helping Sony to vilify the hacker scene in general.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 04, 2011, 02:22:39 PM
They admitted in the press release that two wrongs to don't make a right but they're going to do it anyway.
All GeoHot has to do is tell his lawyer to draft up something dismissing any relations with Anonymous and he's in the clear. The sooner the better.
I for one am kinda curios what they will do. Will they take down there websites or go after PSN?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 02:29:34 PM
Anonymous and GeoHot are two completely separate breeds. I don't think anyone would even try to put them in the same group, they are absolutely nothing alike. Same with Graf_Chokolo and just about everyone else involved in PS3 hacking. These people aren't even PS3 hackers. Anyway, I don't think this will hurt George's case (again, it's a civil trial) and actually has no merit on it whatsoever.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 04, 2011, 02:45:18 PM
Half the stuff Sony has been doing in discovery should have nothing to do with jurisdiction, but that didn't stop them from doing it.
I'm sure if Anon did something stupid, Sony would use that action to make all hackers look bad and then try to lump Geo, Graf, Anon and everyone else into one general all inclusive group of malicious miscreants.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 04, 2011, 03:29:10 PM
Actually, depending on how far they go(assuming it was a real threat), they might even be helping Sony to vilify the hacker scene in general.
Or it could provoke Sony into committing greater acts of brutality which add further support to the hackers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on April 04, 2011, 07:53:53 PM
The Sony of America, Sony of Japan legal loophole stuff is what I hate about lawyers and the court system in general. Too much beauracy and technicalities getting in the way of common sense.
Anonymous sounds like a legion of huge dorks. If they attacked you en masse you could fend them off with a pool noodle. Their letter sounds like something I would have written when I was 9 years old. Oooo Sony is going to be so scared of a bunch of losers who use words like "lulz" and "copywrong".
One thing that will gain Sony support is that they come across like normal people. Right or wrong your demeanor gives you credibility. Sony is a business so they will present themselves as professionals. Hackers have a public image of being friendless losers living in their parents' basement. Statements like Anonymous made just reinforce that stereotype. So the public will not side with the hackers because they came across as immature weirdos. It's less about the point you're trying to make but more about how you make it. It's important to come across as intelligent, rational and mature.
Of course I find the whole idea of information being free to be severly flawed. So no one is entitled to privacy? It's okay for your friends to blab any secrets you've shared with them or for stores to post your credit card number publicly?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 04, 2011, 08:06:01 PM
I think there's something that many of you (and Kotaku) are forgetting...
Anonymous doesn't care what you - or anyone - thinks of them.
And that's what makes them dangerous. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 04, 2011, 08:20:00 PM
Anon Youtube message to Sony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcSCUU4Fg9k
This was from earlier today when PSN had gone down (not sure if it still is though) (http://i56.tinypic.com/149xvy9.jpg)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 08:21:56 PM
They've knocked playstation.com offline too.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 04, 2011, 08:22:38 PM
Anon Youtube message to Sony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcSCUU4Fg9k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcSCUU4Fg9k)
This was from earlier today when PSN had gone down (not sure if it still is though)
Huh. The PSN must have been down for a pretty short time (either that or I got lucky), because I was on there this morning downloading Valkyria Chronicles 2 to transfer to my new PSP. I hope everything's alright.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 08:28:48 PM
I got logged out earlier and trying to use the web browser on my PlayStation was like watching paint dry.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 04, 2011, 08:44:28 PM
As for Anonymous, I have my issues with the hackers in this scenario but despite those issues their activities have not had substantial impact on legitimate users. If Geohot and whatnot were to win their cases, Sony would be displeased and there could be bad issues with future Sony consoles but most people would be unaffected. Anonymous, though, sounds downright malicious and their aggressive (and, as Ian commented, petty and childish) actions against Sony are not unlikely to have negative repercussions on legitimate users who just want to stay out of the way of this fight. They should step back and let the legal system do its thing (as I've said before, Sony is not likely to win these cases), before this escalates beyond the Point of No Return into dangerous territory where things are worse for everyone on both sides of the issue.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on April 04, 2011, 08:54:41 PM
Anonymous are retards. They've done malicious and illegal things for years, thinking they can do whatever the **** they want. They need to be stopped.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 04, 2011, 09:11:48 PM
Yeah, well good luck with that. They trolled this **** out of the FBI. The point that this is a civil case means Sony can just keep dragging it on and on, and sue sue sue and just get people to settle, so they never lose the case. So, in the mean time, they need to get a taste of their own medicine. Two wrongs don't make a right, but Sony has committed more than just a single wrong.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 05, 2011, 01:49:34 AM
Anonymous, though, sounds downright malicious and their aggressive (and, as Ian commented, petty and childish) actions against Sony are not unlikely to have negative repercussions on legitimate users who just want to stay out of the way of this fight.
Its too late for that. The latest PSN EULA is basically a declaration of war by Sony on its users.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 05, 2011, 05:38:33 AM
Wasn't Anonymous the one that helped Egyptians gain access to the internet and (still) allow Libyans to post information on public forum?
Sounds pretty cool to me.
But with any organization that basically can't be policed, they could get out of control.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 05, 2011, 08:13:41 AM
I'm sure their organization is made up of all kinds. Maybe the majority are just inexperienced noobs, but that's not going to be the case with all of them. Some of them might be capable of some pretty devastating stuff.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 05, 2011, 11:33:33 AM
I wish they would do like Fight Club and take on Credit Card Debt. and then one-up it clear all Mortgage Debt (but wait till right after I buy a humongous house).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 05, 2011, 01:45:39 PM
If you haven't read up any recent stuff, Anonymous is whooping Sony's ass right now. Some of the stuff they are doing goes a little too far, or possibly could lead to someone going too far, but rest assured (or don't rest, but be assured) that this is not a bluff by any means. It goes well beyond the Denial of Service attacks from yesterday.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 05, 2011, 01:56:04 PM
links? details? something?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 05, 2011, 03:05:38 PM
I wonder how Sony is going to respond to this. Another round of lawsuits?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 05, 2011, 08:39:00 PM
I see sony.com and playstation.com are up - but loading really slow. Still down for maintenance?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 05, 2011, 10:10:32 PM
Basically they've leaked a bunch of personal (very personal) information on Sony employeyes, lawyers, the judge in the GeoHot trial, and more. Check out ps3crunch.net for more info.
Oh, and also, Sony Computer Entertainment, Inc. is not the parent company of Sony Computer Entertainment of America. Sony's Other OS lawsuit shows this, and also shows that SCEI is in charge of what happens to PS3 firmware updates, basically negating their claims in the GeoHot case. Strange.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SixthAngel on April 06, 2011, 01:24:27 AM
The Sony of America, Sony of Japan legal loophole stuff is what I hate about lawyers and the court system in general. Too much beauracy and technicalities getting in the way of common sense.
I can't stand the fact that companies claim to exist everywhere but nowhere. When they sue me they choose the best place for them because they have a subsidiary there yet when I sue them they try to get the case seen in Turkmenistan where the law favors them because they have another department there. Of course when tax time comes they are somehow in yet another country. The common sense approach is not to let Sony sue from wherever they please.
I can't get angry at anonymous because everytime I hear about them, recently at least, they seem to be attacking some giant power trying to screw people. They don't always use the best ways or the right ways but it feels good to think somebody is at least trying to fight back.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 01:22:12 PM
I can't get angry at anonymous because everytime I hear about them, recently at least, they seem to be attacking some giant power trying to screw people. They don't always use the best ways or the right ways but it feels good to think somebody is at least trying to fight back.
And in the process of "attacking some giant power trying to screw people", they screw innocent players over and cite them as collateral damage (http://playstationlifestyle.net/2011/04/06/the-worst-is-yet-to-come-anonymous-talks-to-playstation-lifestyle/2/). And apparently, according to that link I just posted, they're planning more drastic measures in the next few days. These guys go beyond the pale: attacking individual Sony employees; their families; and judicial judges who are just doing their job, shutting down services that innocent players use on a daily basis, stealing information that could be damaging against innocent players. We're way beyond the morality of hacking with these guys: these are online terrorists, and their actions should not be excused for any reason, especially considering their cited goal is "lulz" (real mature there).
These guys seriously need to be taken down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 06, 2011, 01:23:41 PM
Given that some of their previous attacks have failed, are Sony's services that fragile, or are more people participating in this round of attacks (or both)?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 06, 2011, 01:57:17 PM
I can't get angry at anonymous because everytime I hear about them, recently at least, they seem to be attacking some giant power trying to screw people. They don't always use the best ways or the right ways but it feels good to think somebody is at least trying to fight back.
And in the process of "attacking some giant power trying to screw people", they screw innocent players over and cite them as collateral damage (http://playstationlifestyle.net/2011/04/06/the-worst-is-yet-to-come-anonymous-talks-to-playstation-lifestyle/2/). And apparently, according to that link I just posted, they're planning more drastic measures in the next few days. These guys go beyond the pale: attacking individual Sony employees; their families; and judicial judges who are just doing their job, shutting down services that innocent players use on a daily basis, stealing information that could be damaging against innocent players. We're way beyond the morality of hacking with these guys: these are online terrorists, and their actions should not be excused for any reason, especially considering their cited goal is "lulz" (real mature there).
These guys seriously need to be taken down.
According to that link they haven't "attacked" anybody. They left a message on the Judge's answer machine of Chocolate Rain. I would hardly call that an attack. All they've really done so far is gather as much info about everyone involved as they can so they can figure out how to use it all later.
Quote from: The link Broodwars posted
“The consumers in this are as one might call, collateral damage” said Takai, after being confronted, “we are very cognisant of the fact that we are not making friends nor allies among the average consumer with our attack. This is unfortunate as a concern should always be, will the very people we seek to support not see what it is we are trying to achieve. In this case, many don’t. There has been a lot of hate spread throughout the internet and over forums that we are being reckless and simply punishing consumers more than Sony.”
To the consumers I would say … Before you judge us, take the time to understand us.
While not being able to use the PSN is rather inconvenient, many feared a far greater threat – with the PS Store possibly compromised, was our credit card info safe? He replied: “I think I can safely say this on behalf of everyone, we have no malicious intent towards Sony’s consumers.” We mentioned that due to the IRC’s anonymity, a malicious hacker could go along with the hack, and use the chaos to their advantage, but Takai countered: “Attacks on systems are done as part of a coordinated effort. Although the operation is open to all, as is ddosing. More detailed operational components are more controlled.”
I say you gotta break a few eggs if you want to make an omelette. And people may be a little inconvenienced because they can't play their precious PSN for a day or 2, but I think they would be complaining a lot more down the line when they get denied basic rights, goods and services that they have already paid for just because somewhere in some EULA somewhere Sony made you agree to give those up just to use the stuff you own.
I could relate this to world events with much more serious "inconveniences", but i won't go there, instead I'll just quote The West Wing
"There are 2 things in this world that you never want to let people see how you make them... Laws and sausages"
and while this may not exactly be a law being made, it's sure setting up for something just as important. So if people have to go without PSN for a week or so, so that they can continue to enjoy the hardware that they bought in the future without anymore interruption, then so be it. Yeah, we may all hate that now, but 6 months from now you won't even remember or care.
edit: All I'm really trying to say is that I have no problem with Anon knocking some of these Executive Big Wigs off their high horses so that they remember that it is the customers that they are serving and that they wouldn't be where they were if it weren't for the very same customers that they are now trying to screw over and milk dry. If they have to drag a few other connected people through the mud to preserve a few of the things we already take for granted, then so be it. Casualties of war. I may not like it, but sometimes some things just have to be done if you want to see any results. We are talking about a handful of Davids going against a team of Mega Goliaths.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
According to that link they haven't "attacked" anybody. They left a message on the Judge's answer machine of Chocolate Rain. I would hardly call that an attack. All they've really done so far is gather as much info about everyone involved as they can so they can figure out how to use it all later.
There have been other stories posted on the 'net (namely Destructoid) that have stated that these guys are gathering personal (as it's been stated in this thread "very personal") information on Sony employees and their children (source (http://www.next-gen.biz/news/anonymous-targets-sony-employees)). You don't gather that information with no intent on using it maliciously, especially information on children, and I certainly don't trust THIS group not to abuse that information. While their actions haven't been that destructive yet, they have been quoted on that link I posted earlier as only been carrying out "probing" actions and that they have much more drastic actions planned in the coming days.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 06, 2011, 02:40:27 PM
I wasn't able to log into PSN for awhile earlier today. I don't know if that was due to the hackers or not, because this problem has happened before from time to time. It was mildly annoying, but if it gets Sony to stop being jerks then it would be worth it. If Sony can be convinced that continuing their case against Geohot and the other hackers is more trouble than its worth (which it is, because the harm is already done), then maybe they'll back off and leave them alone.
Lets remember none of this would have ever happened if Sony hadn't removed Other OS. Do you think that looking back they would still think that removing Other OS was the right decision?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 06, 2011, 02:40:54 PM
Like I said before, Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure makes a point.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 02:44:27 PM
Like I said before, Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure makes a point.
That hackers are psychotic anarchists determined to have the world burn if they can't get their way (which is the image that Anonymous portrays)? Sure, it certainly makes that point, which frankly makes Sony's legal cases look far more righteous than they would have otherwise. They're not helping anything with their actions except make the (mostly benevolent) hacking community look worse.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 06, 2011, 02:47:17 PM
According to that link they haven't "attacked" anybody. They left a message on the Judge's answer machine of Chocolate Rain. I would hardly call that an attack. All they've really done so far is gather as much info about everyone involved as they can so they can figure out how to use it all later.
There have been other stories posted on the 'net (namely Destructoid) that have stated that these guys are gathering personal (as it's been stated in this thread "very personal") information on Sony employees and their children. You don't gather that information with no intent on using it maliciously.
supposedly all public knowledge.... as in posted on the internet. I'm sure they've just hacked Facebook accounts and things of that sort... depending on how old these kids are.
All though they said they know their political contributions, which would mean they have their tax returns and all that stuff too. But like the article said,
Quote
“The most important thing in any war is information. Knowing your opponent goes a long way. Today was about probing”. When asked about what the data included, Takai replied: “Information about a great many things. Political campaign contributions, floral bouquets, the location of certain key servers in their network.” All this has been compiled to create a intricate list of information regarding the employees. “As employees of Sony, they are considered legitimate targets of the operation” Takai explained, but conceded the ‘Dox’ were “primarily limited to those in positions of power and in very few cases their underlings”
now this article said underlings, but I wouldn't put it past them to gather the easy to obtain public info on their children too considering how much people willing put out there without even thinking about it.
As far a using it maliciously.... well, they haven't done anything yet, so it would be unfair to judge them based on the fact that they are getting to know as much about their opponents as possible before engaging them in cyber combat. I fully expect them to use gather info to point out hypocrisies, double standards and flat out lies as often as possible to continually discredit Sony and their executives not only professionally but in their personal lives too. If you swat the bees nest, you have to be prepared to get stung. I'm not gonna say I will likely be on board with everything they are capable of doing, but I can look the other way just as so many of us have for so many other things in our lives that will affect us much more than this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 06, 2011, 03:07:51 PM
Like I said before, Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure makes a point.
That hackers are psychotic anarchists determined to have the world burn if they can't get their way (which is the image that Anonymous portrays)? Sure, it certainly makes that point, which frankly makes Sony's legal cases look far more righteous than they would have otherwise. They're not helping anything with their actions except make the (mostly benevolent) hacking community look worse.
No. Mostly that if Hackers feel threatened, they will do something about it. If you put pressure on them, they will put pressure on you. If they see something deemed as unfair, then they will do something about it.
I'm not taking sides when it comes to Anon, but I still find it incredibly interesting.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 06, 2011, 04:23:24 PM
Like I said before, Two wrongs don't make a right, but it sure makes a point.
And its also always nice when the bad guys get their comeuppance. This is probably the only way it could happen anyway, because Sony has the legal system in their pockets so there's no way they can be challenged in that arena.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on April 06, 2011, 05:11:56 PM
Quote
I say you gotta break a few eggs if you want to make an omelette.
It's easy to say that until you're one of eggs and had nothing to do with the situation. I would never want to be collateral damage just because I knew someone or was a citizen of this country but was otherwise uninvolved. So I can't support that being applied to anyone else.
People deserve to be judged as individuals. Prejudices like racism or sexism judge people as groups instead of individuals and those are rightly frowned upon. How is this any different? We're grouping people based on what company they work for or whose family they belong to.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 06, 2011, 05:29:19 PM
They are going after Sony, and to do that they need to target the people in charge at Sony. They may have gathered info on people related to the people in question, but there is no saying what they may do with that info. It could just be used as leverage or not at all. We have no idea yet as we don't know the specifics of what they have or what they plan to do with it.
These people weren't singled out because of what company they work for, they were singles out for what company they RUN. These are the people in charge, the people that make the decisions and the people that sign the checks. They aren't going after the clueless factory worker or the guy who designs the products. They are also going after the Lawyers that represent these people and the Judge that is allowing this to continue the way it is. So it's not like anyone they have targeted has had absolutely nothing to do with this situation.
And I know you are gonna bring up the kids, but the kids aren't being targeted here, they are just caught in the net. If you want to know a man and everything he is about, you are gonna need to know what his motivations in life are who the people closest to him are. All of that is caught in the net when gathering information on your target. There is no guarantee that any of that netted info will ever be collaterally damaged.
Lets wait until Anon makes their moves before we pre-judge them on their intent and execution.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 06, 2011, 06:46:36 PM
Sony wants to destroy Geohot's life by fining him millions of Euros and permanently lowering his standard of living by forcing him to pay over the course of a lifetime these fines which he cannot possibly ever afford to pay off. So if his life is getting ruined, why should I shed a tear if the people responsible have their lives inconvenienced in retaliation? Its not like Anon is going to be capable of doing anything that comes even remotely close to ruining their lives the way they are trying to ruin the life of Geohot. Can Anon force these big shot Sony tycoons to pay a billion dollar find and be destitute for the rest of their lives? I don't think so. All they can do is harass them on an answering machine? Big deal.
Let's try to put things in perspective here. On one hand you have a man facing millions of dollars in fines which will ruin his life forever, and on the other hand you have some wealthy barons at Sony getting prank calls and having their mansions toilet-papered and their limousines egged by hooligans. Which of these is the greater tragedy?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 06, 2011, 07:21:46 PM
I think Anon is capable of more than that.
They could shut down PSN, stop online sales, and frustrate customers who have no idea what's going on.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 07:29:41 PM
They could shut down PSN, stop online sales, and frustrate customers who have no idea what's going on.
Yeah, I got a nice taste of Anon's "collateral damage" when I was using PSN earlier today. I downloaded the last of the digital-based PSP games I wanted (Tactics Ogre and SMT: Persona, if you're curious), but although I could still continue my downloads I was kicked out of PSN. Without being logged into PSN, my PS3's security measures kicked in and wouldn't allow me to transfer my newly-installed PSP games to the actual unit. Thankfully, about an hour later, I was able to log into PSN again and activate my games, but I don't look forward to that happening every time I download a PSN title now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 06, 2011, 07:39:04 PM
You think that was them though?
They would have taken credit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 07:45:12 PM
If it wasn't directly them, it was the result of their recent attacks on PSN causing the system to be unstable and have to be taken offline for a while (PSN going offline for more than less than a minute is a fairly infrequent occurrence from my experience). I frankly don't care which, as either way I couldn't access my legally-purchased games. Both PSN and the various Playstation sites have been randomly operational for days now. And even if it wasn't them, this is the scenario that gamers will face downloading titles from PSN when it is taken down by Anon so I don't really see the difference.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 06, 2011, 08:19:04 PM
I've experienced PSN being down many times well before Anon made their announcement. Granted, I'm not a Plus member like you are, and that might be the reason you have less difficulty signing in and staying signed in with it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 08:23:56 PM
I've experienced PSN being down many times well before Anon made their announcement. Granted, I'm not a Plus member like you are, and that might be the reason you have less difficulty signing in and staying signed in with it.
*shrugs*
All PSN Plus really gives you access to are some free games, some discounts on games I'm usually not interested in, and the ability to do scheduled mass updates (which is really handy). I doubt there's a priority system for so-called "paying users" (yet), especially with such a fledgling program. I do have pretty good internet stability in general, though, and my PS3's hooked up via ethernet cable instead of using Wi-Fi, so maybe that helps. I get minor fluctuations every once in a while where PSN will boot me out, but I can usually sign right back in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 06, 2011, 08:53:59 PM
So... Sony's overly restrictive security measures prevented you from playing legally purchased copies of games that you owned and that's someone else's fault?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 06, 2011, 09:04:56 PM
So... Sony's overly restrictive security measures prevented you from playing legally purchased copies of games that you owned and that's someone else's fault?
When that someone has been on the record that their goal is to destroy Sony's infrastructure, yes it is when there's reason to suspect them of being a cause behind it. And there's nothing overly restrictive about this security measure: to make sure that you are the person who downloaded the content, you have to be signed into your PSN account when you transfer the file. It's a reasonable security measure considering the extreme amount of piracy the PSP has seen.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 06, 2011, 10:24:21 PM
If you're okay with the security measure, then you shouldn't get upset when it kicks in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 06, 2011, 11:28:14 PM
Not being able to play PSP games that you purchased through PSN is Sony's fault (whether they want to blame SCEA or SCEI, whichever is more convenient), not Anon's. If you read anything, you'll see they haven't gone after the PSN service because they don't intend to harm Sony's consumers.
"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers. "
So, once again, it's Sony's **** up, just like everything else.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 06, 2011, 11:28:41 PM
Anon made 3 Demands of Sony before they agree to stop DDoSing their websites
Quote
1. Sony must allow for end-user modification of the PS3, as was available prior to the 3.21 firmware update.
2. Sony must end any attempts to bring legal action to alter a product they own.
3. Sony must not pursue legal action against any collected IP address.
they supposedly also said this:
Quote
Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 07, 2011, 12:10:30 AM
"Anonymous is not attacking the PSN at this time. Sony’s official position is that the PSN is undergoing maintenance. We realize that targeting the PSN is not a good idea. We have therefore temporarily suspended our action, until a method is found that will not severely impact Sony customers. "
The key words being "at this time" and "temporarily suspended our action", meaning they have attacked the PSN in previous days but now are not. Personally, I think it's less that they stopped out of the "goodness of their hearts" (hah!) than that Sony hired an anti-hacking company to block their DDoS attacks that's apparently doing a pretty good job so far. Them being douches in general certainly hasn't helped endear them to their fellow gamers "collateral damage" either.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 07, 2011, 05:04:56 AM
Them being douches in general certainly hasn't helped endear them to their fellow gamers
They're hackers. They're doing what they're doing to help a fellow hacker who is in trouble; it has nothing to do with gaming. Although they may also be gamers, its very possible that many of them don't even own a PS3. That said, they may not care one way or the other what their "fellow gamers" think about this. Its what their fellow hackers think about it that matters to them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 07, 2011, 10:22:25 AM
I think you're all giving Anonymous far too much credit. This is a group of 4chan retards that get together and try to ping servers to death. They're not hackers, they're not crackers, they're not terrorists. They're a bunch of fourteen year-old script kiddies. They'll jump at anything "for the lulz" and then quickly grow disinterested and leave. You could almost admire their goals of anarchy if they were actually genuine.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 07, 2011, 09:57:43 PM
Well that's why I said I wasn't too sure what this would really mean in my initial post about this - but too be fair, I also don't think they get enough credit in some cases. Yes, anon did start on 4chan, but they have managed to troll the living **** out of several companies, and their danger enough that the FBI has been tracking them for years, and basically gotten nowhere.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 08, 2011, 01:37:25 AM
I think you're all giving Anonymous far too much credit. This is a group of 4chan retards that get together and try to ping servers to death. They're not hackers, they're not crackers, they're not terrorists. They're a bunch of fourteen year-old script kiddies. They'll jump at anything "for the lulz" and then quickly grow disinterested and leave. You could almost admire their goals of anarchy if they were actually genuine.
So... what about that whole thing with Gawker a few months ago...?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 12:17:43 PM
Well this is surprising: Sony has announced (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/11/settlement-in-george-hotz-case/) a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz. Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 11, 2011, 12:36:04 PM
Does that mean the Anonymous Sony Store Boycott on April 16th is off? http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383344,00.asp
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 12:41:55 PM
Does that mean the Anonymous Sony Store Boycott on April 16th is off? http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383344,00.asp (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2383344,00.asp)
Considering Joystiq mentioned in their article on the settlement that Hotz had just recently announced that he had joined the boycott (and this settlement is technically 10 days old), probably not.
Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers. Sounds pretty pointless to me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 11, 2011, 12:49:00 PM
Well this is surprising: Sony has announced (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/11/settlement-in-george-hotz-case/) a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz. Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.
Not surprising at all. Scaring defendants into settling is a pretty classic tactic of large corporations. Hatz doesn't have the financial backing that Sony has, and Sony doesn't want to have any precedent set for what equates to jailbreaking on the PS3.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 12:57:15 PM
Well this is surprising: Sony has announced (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/11/settlement-in-george-hotz-case/) a settlement in the case against hacker George Hotz. Other than a permanent injunction being instated against Hotz, Sony does not state what the terms of the settlement were.
Not surprising at all. Scaring defendants into settling is a pretty classic tactic of large corporations. Hatz doesn't have the financial backing that Sony has, and Sony doesn't want to have any precedent set for what equates to jailbreaking on the PS3.
I'm just surprised that this settlement was announced so early in the process. Given the indignation and self-righteousness of Hotz during this case, I thought this would at least get to the trial period before announcing a settlement. I guess Sony found something that Hotz's lawyers didn't think they could defend, or you could be right and the money just wasn't there to fight this.
Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3 (and despite what you may think, I never wanted the guy bankrupted with legal fees. I just wanted him to stop throwing out information that pirates could use to steal PS3 games.), and Sony has established that they will protect their intellectual property in the legal sense (as much good as that does). Meanwhile, the Playstation 3 user experience is more or less unchanged. I wonder how long it will be before we hear of a settlement with that German hacker.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 11, 2011, 02:14:53 PM
Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers. Sounds pretty pointless to me.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of nonviolent resistance. Sony could have them "legally removed", but it would make Sony look like a bunch of fascists and it would make the news and make Sony look really bad. Customers who were there and witnessed it would be horrified by the spectacle.
And as for the settlement, it may have been because of all the bad press Sony was getting which was hurting their profits and was bad for business. They won't say what the terms of the settlement were, but it may be because it was something embarrassing where they realized their case against him was pointless and basically just threw in the towel.
Quote
Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3
Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 02:19:35 PM
Also, I hate to break it to Anonymous, but if they show up in person at the Sony store to "boycott" Sony products the store clerks can have them legally removed quite easily due to harassing legitimate customers. Sounds pretty pointless to me.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept of nonviolent resistance. Sony could have them "legally removed", but it would make Sony look like a bunch of fascists and it would make the news and make Sony look really bad. Customers who were there and witnessed it would likely be horrified.
Considering Anonymous' 14-year-old group mentality, I highly doubt that they would truly be "nonviolent" and wouldn't harass other customers (especially if they're wearing their stupid V for Vendetta masks and carrying anti-Sony signs).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 11, 2011, 02:23:11 PM
The real question is.....
Does Sony even own the Sony Stores that are being boycotted? (http://i.imgur.com/n0Q1x.jpg)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 02:24:23 PM
Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3
Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.
You can find the court document here (http://psx-scene.com/forums/cmps_index.php), but here's the part relevant to this conversation (quote comes from a reply on Destructoid, because my computer's having issues opening the .pdf):
Quote
III. ORDER
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED AND ADJUDGED by consent of the Parties that Hotz, whether as an individual or as a principal, officer, director or employee of any business entity, and his agents, servants, employees, distributors, suppliers, representatives and all other persons or entities acting in concert or participation with Hotz who receive notice of this Judgment, shall be and hereby are permanently enjoined and restrained from:
A. Engaging in any unauthorized access to any SONY PRODUCT under the law;
B. Engaging in any unauthorized access to any SONY PRODUCT under the terms of any SCEA or SCEA AFFILIATES' license agreement or terms of use applicable to that SONY PRODUCT, whether or not Hotz has accepted such agreement or terms of use, including without limitation: (i) reverse engineering, decompiling, or disassembling any portion of the Sony Product; (ii) using any tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism in the Sony Product; (iii) using any hardware or software to cause the Sony Product to accept or use unauthorized, illegal or pirated software or hardware; and (iv) exploiting any Sony Product to design, develop, update or distribute unauthorized software or hardware for use with the Sony Product. If any term of such SCEA or SCEA Affiliates' license agreement or terms of use applicable to that Sony Product shall be determined by Congress or by a court of law in a final non-appealable decision in an action to which SCEA or an SCEA Affiliate is a party to be illegal and unenforceable, then such term shall not be binding on Hotz.
C. CIRCUMVENTING any of the TPMs or security in any SONY PRODUCT;
D. TRAFFICKING in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof that, at the time of Hotz's trafficking, circumvents any of the TPMs or security in any SONY PRODUCT, including but not limited to the Elliptical Curve Signature Algorithm ("ECDSA") Keys, encryption and/or decryption keys, dePKG firmware decrypter program, Signing Tools, 3.55 Firmware Jailbreak, and/or any other technologies that enable unauthorized access to and/or copying of the PS3 System and/or enable compatibility of unauthorized copies of other copyrighted works with the PS3 System.
E. Distributing or posting any SCEA or SCEA Affiliates' confidential or proprietary information relating to any SONY PRODUCT;
F. Knowingly assisting or inducing others to engage in any of the conduct set forth in A-E above solely directed at any SONY PRODUCT or that otherwise constitutes contributory liability under the law.
Sounds like pretty much a win for Sony to me. They got pretty much what they wanted.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 11, 2011, 02:27:53 PM
Either way, this is more or less the result I wanted: Hotz is no longer hacking the PS3
Why do you think that? There was no injunction against him. He could, and very likely will, pick up where he left off. And regardless of whether he does or not, you can be sure others will.
Reading.... it's important.
Quote
Sony Computer Entertainment America (“SCEA”) and George Hotz (“Hotz”) today announced the settlement of the lawsuit filed by SCEA against Hotz in federal court in San Francisco, California. The parties reached an agreement in principle on March 31, 2011. As part of the settlement, Hotz consented to a permanent injunction.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 11, 2011, 03:10:46 PM
Maybe he settles so he can sue Sony in turn? Either way, we're basically where we were before they ever went after him now, only he has to sit on the sidelines now. Is this disappointing? Possibly. We don't know why the parties settled, and possibly never will since they aren't allowed to talk about it, but either way it *looks* like a win for Sony.
Here is the thing that I still need to point out - he did NOT help anyone pirate anything, and his jailbreak DOES NOT enable piracy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 11, 2011, 04:07:17 PM
In any case, I'm glad his life isn't going to be ruined because of this. Too many lives were ruined when the RIAA went after people for file-sharing a few years back. But unlike them, Hotz wasn't even stealing anything. He was only hacking hardware which he legally owned in order to use Linux.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 11, 2011, 05:43:30 PM
Too many lives were ruined when the RIAA went after people for file-sharing a few years back. But unlike them, Hotz wasn't even stealing anything.
Consider that most P2P programs share WHATEVER is on your computer (and set themselves to run at startup), and it's pretty easy to see how a lot of people could have been unintentionally sharing music files.
Sadly, we don't know how many of those people were actually pirating media either. The RIAA scared just about every one of the accused into immediate settlement. It's likely that had more of the cases actually went to court, the RIAA's tactics would have been brushed aside real quick. I understand that most people don't have the finances (or the gall) to fight overblown legal battles against huge corporate entities, so they quickly fold instead. Of course, the RIAA has always known that as well. That's why their entire campaign relies on bullying random people into submission withou ever setting foot in court. They get their money without the fear of legally losing face.
Sony's game is the same and always has been. You need look no further than Bleem or Linksang to see it. And just like the media companies it's not about stopping piracy, it's about maintaining control over distribution channels. Ignoring emerging markets and suing anyone who tries to free up the market is a lot easier way to feed ones greed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 11, 2011, 06:07:46 PM
The thing that really gets me about the RIAA, MPAA, and other related bullshit is this (and yes, it's suited for a different topic) - if you download a game, movie, or album over the internet, you can be sued by the RIAA, MPAA, etc, and sued for TONS of money. If you go to the store and steal a CD, game, or DVD, you might get arrested and get probation or something, but you will NOT be sued. So, piracy to them is just as bad as stealing from the store (which is a stretch already), but the punishment is exponentially more severe. It makes no sense.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 11, 2011, 06:57:36 PM
The thing that really gets me about the RIAA, MPAA, and other related bullshit is this (and yes, it's suited for a different topic) - if you download a game, movie, or album over the internet, you can be sued by the RIAA, MPAA, etc, and sued for TONS of money. If you go to the store and steal a CD, game, or DVD, you might get arrested and get probation or something, but you will NOT be sued. So, piracy to them is just as bad as stealing from the store (which is a stretch already), but the punishment is exponentially more severe. It makes no sense.
Its also just like how if you assault someone you don't know there's some severe punishment for that, but if you do the same thing to someone you live with its only considered "domestic abuse" and it has a separate and less severe punishment. I think that's a bunch of bullshit. So if a woman gets beat up by her husband the legal system won't do much about it. However, if that husband attacks some random person in public then the law will come down hard on him. The inconsistency just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 11, 2011, 07:10:11 PM
This is severely disappointing. I was hoping this would set precedent for all home electronics, like the iPhone did for all phones.
A damn shame. A damn, damn shame.
Oh well, seeing the willingness of Sony to end the case soon (which is quite shocking) is basically a "white flag" to all hackers. They know they can't win in terms of precedent, so settlements is all they can afford.
I also think that GeoHotz came out on top. He knows how important his case was and to be struck with a permanent injunction means that he got something way better in return. Possibly a job.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 11, 2011, 07:16:05 PM
The thing that really gets me about the RIAA, MPAA, and other related bullshit is this (and yes, it's suited for a different topic) - if you download a game, movie, or album over the internet, you can be sued by the RIAA, MPAA, etc, and sued for TONS of money. If you go to the store and steal a CD, game, or DVD, you might get arrested and get probation or something, but you will NOT be sued. So, piracy to them is just as bad as stealing from the store (which is a stretch already), but the punishment is exponentially more severe. It makes no sense.
That's when theoretical loss and damages come into play. You downloading that file has the potential to cause billions in damages... according to the MAFIAA.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 11, 2011, 07:40:24 PM
The thing that really gets me about the RIAA, MPAA, and other related bullshit is this (and yes, it's suited for a different topic) - if you download a game, movie, or album over the internet, you can be sued by the RIAA, MPAA, etc, and sued for TONS of money. If you go to the store and steal a CD, game, or DVD, you might get arrested and get probation or something, but you will NOT be sued. So, piracy to them is just as bad as stealing from the store (which is a stretch already), but the punishment is exponentially more severe. It makes no sense.
It's about risk vs. reward. Ultimately, the reward is the same - free media. However, the pure act of downloading something from the internet has very, very little risk. Compare that to the act of stealing physical media from a store - there's a lot of risk involved. So, what the law needs to do (and I agree that it's currently not in balance), it needs to balance out the risk a bit. If the chances of getting caught are much, much lower - you'll be more likely to consider it. But if the punishment for getting caught is much, much worse, it'll make you think twice before doing it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 11, 2011, 07:50:00 PM
I don't know how much worse the the consequences could be without introducing capital punishment to the mix. :P
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 11, 2011, 08:37:12 PM
The problem with the current system is that the punishment is "YOU PAY BILLIONS YOU DON'T HAVE AND GO BANKRUPT HAHA WE WIN."
Seriously, for most people, there's no difference in a $100,000 fine and a $14 Million fine.
There needs to be some monetary reimbursement to the parties who have been wronged, but as for the deterrence part of the punishment, I'd prefer to see large amount of community service hours required.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 11, 2011, 08:37:38 PM
I think we are moving towards music being locally produced and self-promoted. The days of signing on to a label are becoming less and less significant. Labels do not know who to lash out to for declining sales, but it's definitely not the consumer. If the music is good, then we will see them in concert or promote it by word of mouth. The day of monopolizing the industry and using artists is over.
As for movies, I can understand why they are scared of piracy. Home theaters are the best way to see a movie now-a-days. No one goes to a movie unless they absolutely can't wait, want to see it in IMAX 3D, or want to go out for an old fashioned good time. Most people though, would much rather be home, chillin'; eating their own grub, drinking their own drinks, and having a ball. It's especially nice if the movie sucks, you can just change it and watch something else. Movie theaters don't allow you to do that.
That's why I think movie and movie theater's are scrambling to add 3D, in order to give that perception of value. If they can keep up that model where they are always one step ahead, then they will be fine. But that's incredibly tough to do. That's why I think, one day, movies will be available for rent through digital services at the same time it is released on the big screen. They're already moving towards it. DVD's are released much much sooner than they use to be. What use to be a year long wait is now only a few months. I don't see this coming for another 10 years, but it is coming to a head.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SixthAngel on April 11, 2011, 09:27:36 PM
Quote
Sony Computer Entertainment America (“SCEA”) and George Hotz (“Hotz”) today announced the settlement of the lawsuit filed by SCEA against Hotz in federal court in San Francisco, California. The parties reached an agreement in principle on March 31, 2011. As part of the settlement, Hotz consented to a permanent injunction.
The PS3 is already hacked, basically permanently, thanks to Geohot so isn't this injuction basically worthless? This just looks like a way for Sony to save face now that they are backing out of case that could set a precedent they don't want.
As punishment for eating that piece of pie you can't eat that piece of pie!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 11, 2011, 09:37:11 PM
What would happen if he violated the injunction?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 11, 2011, 09:43:34 PM
Sony Computer Entertainment America (“SCEA”) and George Hotz (“Hotz”) today announced the settlement of the lawsuit filed by SCEA against Hotz in federal court in San Francisco, California. The parties reached an agreement in principle on March 31, 2011. As part of the settlement, Hotz consented to a permanent injunction.
The PS3 is already hacked, basically permanently, thanks to Geohot so isn't this injuction basically worthless? This just looks like a way for Sony to save face now that they are backing out of case that could set a precedent they don't want.
As punishment for eating that piece of pie you can't eat that piece of pie!
To be fair, if that temporary injunction is close to the one Holz agreed to, it prevents him from hacking any SONY products - including, presumably, future products.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 11, 2011, 10:11:01 PM
Major fines and possible incarceration for violating a court order.
Bzzt.
It's an out of court settlement. While what you stated *could* happen, what would likely happen is that it would end up back in court and SONY would use it as evidence that Hotz has already acted in bad faith. Again, depending on the terms of the settlement - that we'll never know.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 12, 2011, 08:24:19 AM
Yeah, it was settled out of court so its not a court order thing. I'm sure if he wants to he can find a way to do it anonymously so that it can't ever be linked back to him.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 14, 2011, 07:17:54 AM
I take back what I said about John Key giving the finger to the US. The NZ Parliament are a bunch of collective retards that make Ted "The internet is a bunch of tubes" Stevens look savvy. Passed 111-11 under urgency under the guise of an earthquake bill in a piece of disgusting politicking for an equally disgusting bill, debate was worse than non-existent:
Quote
"Do you remember the movie, the Terminator?" Mr Young asked, to loud guffaws. "I'm sure that you do, and the computer system called Skynet that ruled the world, is like the internet today."
Quote
MP Katrina Shanks "It is really important to remember that file sharing is an illegal activity."
"Do you remember the movie, the Terminator?" Mr Young asked, to loud guffaws. "I'm sure that you do, and the computer system called Skynet that ruled the world, is like the internet today."
Quote
MP Katrina Shanks "It is really important to remember that file sharing is an illegal activity."
I take back what I said about John Key giving the finger to the US. The NZ Parliament are a bunch of collective retards that make Ted "The internet is a bunch of tubes" Stevens look savvy. Passed 111-11 under urgency under the guise of an earthquake bill in a piece of disgusting politicking for an equally disgusting bill, debate was worse than non-existent:
Quote
"Do you remember the movie, the Terminator?" Mr Young asked, to loud guffaws. "I'm sure that you do, and the computer system called Skynet that ruled the world, is like the internet today."
Quote
MP Katrina Shanks "It is really important to remember that file sharing is an illegal activity."
I am too pissed off to write more on this. I know this is a Sony thread, but there just isn't anywhere else I could find to put this.
Now off to write letters to MPs and vote Green. Where the hell is Helen Clake when you need her.
I read through it yesterday. The only thing that really makes it surprising is the way they snuck it through. It'll happen everywhere... the US has been fighting hard for it for some time now. Can we please stop pretending that we aren't living under corporate rule now?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 14, 2011, 09:34:08 PM
I read through it yesterday. The only thing that really makes it surprising is the way they snuck it through. It'll happen everywhere... the US has been fighting hard for it for some time now. Can we please stop pretending that we aren't living under corporate rule now?
Before this gets too political, let me steal an old quote - the American people will elect the government they deserve.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 15, 2011, 10:04:10 AM
You assume that elections work.
If voting had the power to change anything, it would be outlawed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 15, 2011, 07:41:32 PM
So what's your opinion of that government shutdown thing?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 15, 2011, 07:54:16 PM
What's your opinion of not purposely trying to steer a topic far off course by bringing up a completely unrelated political discussion?
Personally, I'm against that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 15, 2011, 08:37:42 PM
Personally, I too am against political discussion, but after my post was deleted and I was warned I decided if you can't beat em might as well join them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 16, 2011, 01:29:16 AM
Political discussion is against the rules, but so is being a dick about pointing out other people breaking the rules. Leave the moderation to those of us with the power to carry it out, and if you think someone is breaking the rules, hit the "Report to Moderator" button instead of making an accusatory post.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 19, 2011, 12:17:53 AM
You know what the ultimate irony is in all of this? I sold my DS but kept my PSP, I have a Sony receiver, and I own three PS3s. I just thought of that earlier. Still though, my PSP and two of my PS3s don't play anything from retail, and I got my third PS3 since it was basically free, and I wanted to play the Mortal Kombat demo (fucking awesome, by the way).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 19, 2011, 05:28:13 PM
Mortal Kombat does look awesome...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 20, 2011, 03:02:35 PM
Mortal Kombat looks awesome mostly because it doesn't look shitty.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 20, 2011, 03:11:13 PM
The only truly shitty Mortal Kombat game I've ever seen was MK4/GOLD.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 20, 2011, 03:46:10 PM
What about Mortal Kombat Trilogy?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 20, 2011, 04:15:02 PM
In my opinion, it's been downhill ever since MK3. They jumped the shark with that one, adding in 6 more ninjas, 10 more robots, and a police officer. (Though Kabal was the ****)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 20, 2011, 05:10:55 PM
Trilogy was pretty fun for what it was. Everyone and everything rolled into one?! Of course, it does take a flack from the hardcore players.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 20, 2011, 11:09:01 PM
MK Trilogy is awesome. It's one of the few games where the PSX version was better than the N64 version (when you don't count the loading times). But then again, the N64 version was better than the PSX version too. MK4/Gold are too easy, but I still enjoy both of them. If you get the "final" version of MK Gold (with all of the bugs removed), it's pretty decent.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 21, 2011, 12:47:10 PM
I've been waiting on commenting on this till we got some confirmation on just what is going on, but 2 days later we still have no information so what the hell: PS3 users may have noticed that the PSN has more or less been completely down for most users for the better part of 2 days. You can't login to your PSN account, visit the shop, etc. Anyone wanting to play online in Mortal Kombat is probably completely screwed right now (I haven't heard of that game running off its own service), though thankfully I have heard of no issues with Portal 2 Co-op play (I assume Valve uses their own servers since the PS3 version is tied into Steam). No hacker group has claimed responsibility and Sony is not reporting any scheduled maintenance. I do find Sony's news post (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/21/latest-update-on-psn-outage/) on their blog about this issue troubling, as apparently whatever the problem is they don't expect to have PSN back up until probably sometime tomorrow. Well, I'm glad I already installed all the stuff I'm currently playing and downloaded the latest patches. :-\
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 21, 2011, 04:06:26 PM
Are hackers still targeting Sony? I had assumed since Sony settled with Geohotz and since we hadn't heard anything else from Anon on the matter that the thing had been dropped.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on April 21, 2011, 04:59:21 PM
Are hackers still targeting Sony? I had assumed since Sony settled with Geohotz and since we hadn't heard anything else from Anon on the matter that the thing had been dropped.
*shrug* They have no reason to hit MS or Nintendo currently...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 21, 2011, 05:39:36 PM
Are hackers still targeting Sony? I had assumed since Sony settled with Geohotz and since we hadn't heard anything else from Anon on the matter that the thing had been dropped.
After Sony announced the settlement with Geohot, Anonymous released a statement (http://www.destructoid.com/anonymous-not-done-with-sony-promises-biggest-attack--198771.phtml) saying that the attacks would continue. According to Playstation Lifestyle, though, their investigation into Anonymous' usual chatting grounds revealed to them that Anonymous is saying they aren't behind this one. There are some rumors that these latest attacks (if that is indeed what they are) are from a much more militant Anonymous splinter group (terrorist cell?) that didn't like the group backing off of taking down PSN.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 21, 2011, 06:31:35 PM
I'm guessing this must have been the result of hackers. If it were routine maintenance it would have only been down a short while, and if Sony was doing some major time-consuming overhaul they would announced it before hand. For PSN to have been down for this long of a time suggests something's up.
I wonder why it happened at this particular time, though. A lot of extremists do seem to pick 4/20 as a date to do their ****. For example, that was when McVeigh attacked the FBI building in OKC back in 1995.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 21, 2011, 06:46:14 PM
I'm guessing this must have been the result of hackers. If it were routine maintenance it would have only been down a short while, and if Sony was doing some major time-consuming overhaul they would announced it before hand. For PSN to have been down for this long of a time suggests something's up.
I wonder why it happened at this particular time, though. A lot of extremists do seem to pick 4/20 as a date to do their ****. For example, that was when McVeigh attacked the FBI building in OKC back in 1995.
Ordinarily, I'd think something like this would be too major to base around pop culture nerd in-jokes, but hey these are hackers looking for "lulz" so stranger things have happened: According to the revised timeline in Terminator: the Sarah Conner Chronicles, Skynet goes online on April 19th of the given year. PSN started going down on the 19th. Coincidence? Perhaps. :P:
What's more likely is that the hackers saw that two games with major online components (Mortal Kombat and Portal 2) were both releasing on the 19th, so they decided this was an opportune time to screw with innocent gamers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 21, 2011, 08:11:56 PM
Innocent? You gave Sony your money! You're not innocent!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 21, 2011, 08:46:59 PM
Well, Anon did promise they were going to go after Sony. Maybe no one took them seriously at the time, but it now looks like they delivered on their promise.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 22, 2011, 12:06:53 AM
So because Sony has decided to defend their intellectual property rights, your average Sony consumer deserves whatever inconvenience or consequence that befalls them from self-righteous hackers? Ok, if that's how you feel allow me to turn this around a bit: you've been making a few elitist jabs the last couple days about you being a PC gamer. What if I were to say that PC gamers deserve whatever intrusive DRM and extreme restrictions they may suffer, because the PC is so overwhelmingly beset by piracy that very few companies can make any money off the platform, and that gaming would be better off if companies just stopped supporting the platform altogether? After all, PC gamers aren't innocent in all this! They're statistically overwhelmingly low-life pirates contributing to the destruction of their gaming platform out of pure greed.
Yeah, I wouldn't think you'd like it if I made such a blanket statement, so let's leave the average gamer who has done nothing wrong and are the ones really being hurt here out of this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 22, 2011, 01:18:10 AM
I would highly suggest that you watch this video before you continue galloping around on your white horse defending something that needs no defending.
It is not a trap of any kind. It's just one man talking. A bit slow I admit, but they are good words.
I watched that link, and there are things I agree with in it (there are certainly some movies and TV series I've only picked up in retail later on because I saw them somewhere else previously). Still, I don't think what he's talking about is entirely comparable with all forms of media on the internet, especially since his argument is about how he was seeing his novels pirated in countries where he wasn't selling them. I really think the slow death of PC gaming and its correlation with the widespread rise of piracy on PC games can't be ignored (or for that matter, what happened with the PSP and its high piracy rate).
That's really all I have to say on the subject, though. We've already had 2 forum threads closed due to arguments on this subject, and I'd rather not see a 3rd get closed as well over an issue that we're just not going to agree on.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 22, 2011, 07:44:08 AM
I think everyone needs to listen to Rage Against the Machine's "Bullet in the Head."
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 22, 2011, 10:41:02 AM
I really think the slow death of PC gaming and its correlation with the widespread rise of piracy on PC games can't be ignored (or for that matter, what happened with the PSP and its high piracy rate).
Just like how the entire music industry shut down because of Napster, right? Just like how Hollywood is hemorrhaging money because of low quality cam-rips being uploaded? Piracy is a scapegoat. You know it just as well as the industry knows it. Stop pretending that its the consumers fault that products fail. Sony customers look more and more like a bunch of little Eichmanns everyday.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 22, 2011, 03:46:10 PM
You can't equate the two.
Game makers rarely have merchandise/alternative revenue streams. Music makers have concerts, shirt sales, etc.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 22, 2011, 03:50:09 PM
Piracy isn't the issue. The issue is that Sony sucks ass and antagonizes their own consumers by installing DRM and doing other underhanded things without the user's consent. This is why people hate Sony in particular. Every company suffers from piracy, but Sony is the only ones who are asshoels and deserve to suffer.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 22, 2011, 11:43:48 PM
So now it finally comes out. This was not an Anonymous DDoS as so many crappy "reporters" had insinuated. This was an actual alleged hack, but the hack itself didn't bring down the system, Sony did. If this is true, I wonder what they found/what the heck is going on that they still feel the need to keep the systems offline. Terrible communication too.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 22, 2011, 11:48:14 PM
I wonder what they mean by "external intrusion".
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 12:06:27 AM
So now it finally comes out. This was not an Anonymous DDoS as so many crappy "reporters" had insinuated. This was an actual alleged hack, but the hack itself didn't bring down the system, Sony did. If this is true, I wonder what they found/what the heck is going on that they still feel the need to keep the systems offline. Terrible communication too.
I don't recall ever saying Anonymous was behind this. In fact, I specifically stated that Anonymous themselves thought this might be a splinter group that didn't agree with Anonymous' decision to leave PSN alone. My guess is that whatever this hack was, it was significant for Sony themselves to bring the service down for a total cleaning so it probably had something to do with account hacking or messing with store prices on the PSN. That's the only thing I can think of serious enough for Sony to risk losing a great deal of money keeping the PSN down for multiple days when they've never brought it down for so long in previous attacks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 23, 2011, 12:10:05 AM
Are you a reporter? Even the BBC made it out like it was at least related to Anonymous.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 12:12:46 AM
Are you a reporter? Even the BBC made it out like it was at least related to Anonymous.
You used the word "reporter" sarcastically, so it was difficult to tell if that was a jab at me since I was the first person to post here about PSN going down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 23, 2011, 12:20:12 AM
It would be funny if someone did screw with the prices on PSN and have the price of something lowered to $0.01 and then the price of something else raised to $9999.99 or something. I'm not saying I would approve of it; I'm just saying it would be funny...
Just imagine if just for a short period of time everything on PSN dropped down in price to 1 cent. Imagine the chaos that would ensue as 70 million people tripped over themselves in a bid to download everything.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 01:58:50 AM
It would be funny if someone did screw with the prices on PSN and have the price of something lowered to $0.01 and then the price of something else raised to $9999.99 or something. I'm not saying I would approve of it; I'm just saying it would be funny...
Just imagine if just for a short period of time everything on PSN dropped down in price to 1 cent. Imagine the chaos that would ensue as 70 million people tripped over themselves in a bid to download everything.
Yes, countless innocent 3rd parties being at worst out of countless profits (and at best having to go through mountains of legal paperwork and digital rights transfers/removals) because of self-righteous douchebag hackers would truly be hilarious. You said you wouldn't approve of it, but there really would be nothing funny about that scenario considering the massive collateral damage and subsequent mess to untangle getting all the licenses sorted out. And the vast majority of the damage would be to companies who merely support Sony platforms with content and have no control over Sony's business decisions. Hopefully, something like that never happens.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 23, 2011, 02:37:59 AM
Depending how the third party contracts are set up, it's possible that Sony would have to pay them the normal amount per download, regardless of what the price is. After all, it's unreasonable to expect the third party to be in charge of Sony's network security.
If there's a glitch in the Walmart computer that sells all the Wii games for a penny, do you think Walmart gets to then pay less to their distributors for the games?
In the end, it could be a huge boom to the third parties, if their games get a ton of downloads, there's a ton of happy customers and Sony still has to pay them full price. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 23, 2011, 03:54:50 AM
It would be funny if someone did screw with the prices on PSN and have the price of something lowered to $0.01 and then the price of something else raised to $9999.99 or something. I'm not saying I would approve of it; I'm just saying it would be funny...
Just imagine if just for a short period of time everything on PSN dropped down in price to 1 cent. Imagine the chaos that would ensue as 70 million people tripped over themselves in a bid to download everything.
Yes, countless innocent 3rd parties being at worst out of countless profits (and at best having to go through mountains of legal paperwork and digital rights transfers/removals) because of self-righteous douchebag hackers would truly be hilarious. You said you wouldn't approve of it, but there really would be nothing funny about that scenario considering the massive collateral damage and subsequent mess to untangle getting all the licenses sorted out. And the vast majority of the damage would be to companies who merely support Sony platforms with content and have no control over Sony's business decisions. Hopefully, something like that never happens.
I guess you wouldn't find stuff like this funny either.
As funny as it is to pull pranks on individuals, its even more funny when pranks get pulled on multi-billion dollar corporations like Sony. That said, I also think it would be funny if someone pulls down Kaz Hirai's pants during the middle of his E3 presentation this year. Or throw a pie in his face, or something. Of course, you wouldn't think that would be funny and would probably hope whoever did it gets shipped to Gitmo, but I bet most people who witnessed it would agree with me that that would be pretty damn hilarious.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 23, 2011, 06:47:07 AM
There are probably lots of things that I don't condone or want to see happen that I'd consider funny in the event they did happen. PSN getting hacked to drop the price of all games to $.01 is on that list.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 09:00:50 AM
As funny as it is to pull pranks on individuals, its even more funny when pranks get pulled on multi-billion dollar corporations like Sony. That said, I also think it would be funny if someone pulls down Kaz Hirai's pants during the middle of his E3 presentation this year. Or throw a pie in his face, or something. Of course, you wouldn't think that would be funny and would probably hope whoever did it gets shipped to Gitmo, but I bet most people who witnessed it would agree with me that that would be pretty damn hilarious.
Yes, a prank like that pulled on an individual with no real harm to anything except ego is totally comparable to the sabotage and digital theft of an online service that costs multiple companies considerable amounts of money. ::) And no, I don't like pranks in general. It's the coward's way of dealing with a situation, rather than engaging your target in the markeplace of ideas or fighting for change legitimately. It's also considerably less "funny" when the prank is pulled on you. If you would find the idea of all PSN titles brought down to $.01 hilarious, would you find it similarly so if a hacker were to hack your bank accounts so they all had a $.01 balance? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Besides, why would you want to pull a prank like that on Kaz Hirai? I think he's shown plenty of times in the past that he creates his own internet memes without even having to be pranked. :P:
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 23, 2011, 01:02:22 PM
It's the coward's way of dealing with a situation, rather than engaging your target in the markeplace of ideas or fighting for change legitimately.
Just like Sony does, right? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 23, 2011, 03:00:20 PM
You don't like pranks? How can someone not like pranks? Is that even possible? **** some of the funniest moments in "The Office" are pranks Jim does to Dwight.
And I can understand your distaste of a Penny Market, but I think you'd be lying to yourself if you said that you wouldn't take advantage of it, at least for one game.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 03:09:07 PM
You don't like pranks? How can someone not like pranks? Is that even possible? **** some of the funniest moments in "The Office" are pranks Jim does to Dwight.
Ah, but in a case like that there would be a distinct difference: on a TV show/movie/game/whatever, pranks do no one any harm, as they're done to fictional characters. I don't mind those. It's when this stuff is pulled on real-life people that I have issues with them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 23, 2011, 03:18:24 PM
But I think it would be EVEN funnier if pulled on a real person...cuz you know...it actually happened.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 23, 2011, 03:40:16 PM
If you would find the idea of all PSN titles brought down to $.01 hilarious, would you find it similarly so if a hacker were to hack your bank accounts so they all had a $.01 balance?
I would be upset, sure. But sometime later after everything was made right and I calmed down I honestly might find it funny that whoever did it left a penny instead of just taking everything. Its like someone robbing a bank but making sure they put change in the parking meter outside. I don't know why, but little things like that are funny. If you're the victim of course you don't think its funny, but years later looking back in retrospect you might see the humor in it. I don't know what else to say about it, but like I said it doesn't mean I condone these acts... I just see how there's something funny in it once you strip away all the bad stuff about it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 23, 2011, 03:44:10 PM
It seems my guess my have been on the right track, as Destructoid (http://www.destructoid.com/sony-admits-hackers-have-taken-down-playstation-network-199468.phtml) anyway seems to think what happened was that the hackers had modded their PS3s to act as Dev Kits. Developers Dev Kits can download items off the PSN for free for testing purposes. So yeah, people may have been mass-stealing items off the PSN using these consoles, so Sony had to shut the PSN down. If that were the case, though, I don't see how Sony can prevent people from doing that. Sure, they can ban their PSN accounts, but since the hacking is on the console side I don't see how they block these people without blocking developers as well. There were rumors that Sony can brick PS3s remotely, so maybe taht?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 23, 2011, 03:48:51 PM
According to NeoGAF posters, the dev version of PSN went back up and the exploit is still there, but regular PSN remains down, so it doesn't seem to be that. It doesn't really make sense to bring the whole network down for days for relatively few unauthorized downloads.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 23, 2011, 03:54:41 PM
According to NeoGAF posters, the dev version of PSN went back up and the exploit is still there, but regular PSN remains down, so it doesn't seem to be that. It doesn't really make sense to bring the whole network down for days for relatively few unauthorized downloads.
Agreed. Every moment Sony keeps it down they are losing millions in revenue from the 70 million users who would have been buying stuff on it during that time. To lose all that just because of a handful of pirates isn't very logical.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 23, 2011, 06:08:53 PM
Sony deserves every bit of what they are getting and then some for what they did a few years back installing Rootkits on people's PCs without their consent or knowledge. Installing Rootkits is a form of hacking, so if hacking is a crime then Sony is just as guilty of it as Anon or Geohotz. Sony getting hacked is Karma for when they did it to others.
You can read about Sony's rootkit hacking here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal)
Sony also violated the GPL in creating the rootkits by using GPL'ed code in creating it. So they are also guilty of copyright infringement.
So let's not hear any more whining about how Sony are "innocent" victims in all this. They are hypocrites because they've done the same things that they're now whining about others doing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on April 23, 2011, 07:02:33 PM
I think there's a big different to be found there though. Sony knowingly spread malicious code with the express purpose of damaging the property of consumers. Geohotz just wanted an advertised feature reinstated on his personally owned hardware... something the Finnish Consumer Complaints Board (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2011/04/21/sony_should_pay_100_to_man_for_otheros_removal_consumer_board_says) recently thought about.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 25, 2011, 12:36:00 PM
The title says it all: "Sony Doesn’t Know Yet If Your Credit Card Number Was Stolen"
Geesh - if Sony had invested half the money they've put into their anti-piracy measures into network security, I wonder how much of this would have happened.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 25, 2011, 01:49:15 PM
Yeah, this is getting pretty ridiculous now. I'm on vacation at the moment (28th B-day on Thursday), so I don't really need online gaming right now, but I would like to synch all the trophies I've earned over the past week (yes, I brought my PS3 with me. Family outings like this are full of periods where nothing happens). I don't think my credit card info at least has been hijacked, though, or I probably wouldn't have anything left in my bank account by now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 25, 2011, 01:54:25 PM
Depends. If they're just wanting to make a statement or if they plan to resell the information, then it's likely you wouldn't notice anything yet. Even if they plan to use it themselves, keep in mind, they likely have MILLIONS of user credit card information. Even if they wanted to, they wouldn't use it all at once - it'd attract too much attention.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 25, 2011, 02:41:09 PM
Reminds me of the government office that was hacked a month backed, with hackers stealing everything from SS# to credit card info. Experts in that case said not to expect anything for several months to a year as the thieves wait for the hoopla to die down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 25, 2011, 05:17:54 PM
Geesh - if Sony had invested half the money they've put into their anti-piracy measures into network security, I wonder how much of this would have happened.
That's because when they fight piracy they're defending *their* property. They don't give a **** about protecting the information of their customers. Its not Sony's problem, so why should they give a crap? So that's why the Anti-piracy mission comes first, and user security is somewhere far down on the list of company priorities, right under the daily shampooing of Kevin Butler's pet poodle.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on April 25, 2011, 05:21:20 PM
Geesh - if Sony had invested half the money they've put into their anti-piracy measures into network security, I wonder how much of this would have happened.
That's because when they fight piracy they're defending *their* property. They don't give a **** about protecting the information of their customers. Its not Sony's problem, so why should they give a crap? So that's why the Anti-piracy mission comes first, and network security is somewhere far down on the list of company priorities, right under shampooing Kevin Butler's pet poodle.
Miniture poodles do get dirty pretty easily.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 25, 2011, 05:36:23 PM
Remember when I was saying how weak PSN's security was a while back? Remember when I said it didn't matter if you were using the console? Hate to say I told you so, especially since my CC info is on PSN as well.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 25, 2011, 05:42:08 PM
Remember when I was saying how weak PSN's security was a while back? Remember when I said it didn't matter if you were using the console? Hate to say I told you so, especially since my CC info is on PSN as well.
If you knew then why did you use your CC on it?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on April 25, 2011, 06:52:19 PM
Why did Morari hack PSN?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 25, 2011, 11:02:16 PM
I bought Mortal Kombat 2 (using my CC) long before the PS3 was ever hacked, and way before PSN's shortcomings were detailed. I haven't actually entered my CC info since my initial purchase, but it's on their servers, so I'm probably fucked. It's still the only PS3 game I've ever bought...still debating which version of MK9 to get. I kind of wanted the PS3 version, but since PSN no longer exists, I can't play it online.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 12:09:58 AM
Sony shouldn't store your CC info like that. That just shows how little they care about the security of customer information, but they sure make major strides when their own property is threatened.
As for MK9, the PS3 version has the exclusive Kratos character. I don't know if that matters to you or not but I'm just putting that out there. It seems like they should have had an exclusive 360 character as well to compensate. Maybe they will add one later on? I'm sorta interested in MK9 myself, but I almost never buy games at full price so I'm going to wait.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 26, 2011, 03:02:25 AM
Meh...it's easy enough to get a new credit card sent to you. Companies even expect to at some point. I don't see why it's such a big deal. SSN's on the other hand...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 03:04:37 AM
It's a PITA because I have several online accounts (including bills) set up with one particular card. Also, if you used your debit card instead of a credit card, depending on your bank, it may take longer to get any issues sorted out after your account gets cleared out.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 26, 2011, 03:07:23 AM
My bank charges me for lost/stolen debit cards. Fucking bank...
Anyway, yeah I understand it's a pain in the ass and a shitty situation, but there are ways to protect yourself.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 06:33:51 AM
*sigh* I'm well on my way to my third Platinum (Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2) since the PSN went down and we're coming up on one week since the PSN first went down. That's just sad, Sony. It's going to be interesting to see what happens if the PSN's not up tonight considering we get our Shop updates every Tuesday. They might just not update the Shop at all this week if the network's not restored by Tuesday evening. Either way, Sony's going to have a hell of a time restoring faith in their online service after taking it down for so long and now seemingly rebuilding it from scratch.
And seriously, Chozo, I know you're being incredibly subtle about it, but we get that you hate Sony with what seems to be a very personal passion (which makes your decision to purchase a PS3 a very odd one). Maybe 6 years ago their CD rootkits murdered your dog or something, but the constant harping on them for the same issues you've already listed is getting old.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 06:55:05 AM
Was any of that second half really necessary? If you don't agree with someone's post, just skip over them.
Back on subject, there's a new rumor floating around that all server-side user data has been deleted. Trophies, download records, etc., etc. Supposedly, the reason PSN has been down so long is because SONY is working like hell to attempt to recover this stuff.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 26, 2011, 06:58:40 AM
That's as likely an explanation as I've heard as to why it's taken so long.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 26, 2011, 07:01:10 AM
Nah, the CD rootkit not only murdered his dog, but sent his Cat to Gitmo and raped his computer on the way out.
Never Forget. :'(
He more likely a dedicated enough of a gamer too ignore the issue at the time, but obviously the **** has been just piled on top since then and like anyone who has ever invested in anything only to be dicked with, they are pissed.
WOW, either they had no backups or someone took virtual napalm to their servers. I can't figure out whether to be impressed or laugh.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 07:15:22 AM
(which makes your decision to purchase a PS3 a very odd one).
Its not that odd. Although I dislike Sony, I am a gamer and the Wii just wasn't cutting it so what was I supposed to do? It was either that or the 360, and I decided against 360 because of the RROD issue and because of having to pay for online, and plus most of my friends have a PS3 instead of 360 so for all those reasons it made more sense at the time. This was back in mid-late January. So we're only in April now, but all this crap with the PS3 security been broken and then Geohotz being sued and later settling and Anon declaring war on them and PSN being down for a week is all stuff that happened AFTER I bought the PS3. I'm not a psychic, so how could I have known this was all going to transpire?
Knowing what I do know now I probably would have went with the 360.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on April 26, 2011, 04:59:19 PM
One, Sony isn't talking specifics, with the latest update on the PlayStation Blog from senior director of corporate communications and social media Patrick Seybold only outlining that the company has identified "a compromise of personal information as a result of an illegal intrusion on our systems."
Two, probably within a week--at least for some parts of PSN. "We have a clear path to have PlayStation Network and Qriocity systems back online, and expect to restore some services within a week," said Seybold. "We’re working day and night to ensure it is done as quickly as possible."
Three, the answer is yes. Here's what was available to intruders: "name, address (city, state, zip), country, email address, birthdate, PlayStation Network/Qriocity password and login, and handle/PSN online ID." It's also "possible" that "your profile data, including purchase history and billing address (city, state, zip), and your PlayStation Network/Qriocity password security answers" were included.
Unfortunately, credit card details remain a mystery. "While there is no evidence at this time that credit card data was taken, we cannot rule out the possibility," added Seybold. "If you have provided your credit card data through PlayStation Network or Qriocity, out of an abundance of caution we are advising you that your credit card number (excluding security code) and expiration date may have been obtained."
Ah crap. Kind of regretting I have a PSN account now. Time to change some passwords.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on April 26, 2011, 05:05:52 PM
Enner beat me to it. Bad news all around.
I'm not happy with the hackers that compromised my data, but I'm more-so angry with Sony. They are the gatekeepers of mine and obviously millions of other users personal data in this circumstance, and were expected to have the proper checks in place to prevent such fraud. It is deplorable that they could have such limited capability to defend against this type of intrusion.
Let this also be a lesson to people who rooted on the hackers throughout all of this fiasco. You had every right to be upset at Sony for their recent actions that hurt their customers more than hackers, but it is apparent now that the consumer will be the one to pay regardless of who wins in this fight of corporation vs. pirates.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 06:03:50 PM
I'm curious how widespread the intrusion was. I've seen conflicting statements from Sony on this, as their recent PSN Blog update (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/26/update-on-playstation-network-and-qriocity/) specifically states "certain accounts" were hacked (which would fit in with the rumor that Admin and Dev accounts were hacked), while in other statements they aren't sure of the damage. That their Blog update advises PSN users to place Credit Fraud Alerts on their accounts with 3 major credit institutions isn't a good sign.
Depending on the damage incurred, I'll be interested to see if there are any lawsuits filed against Sony for negligence in the design of PSN security. If the information leak is as bad as we fear, I wouldn't blame folks for doing so (since I highly doubt the hacker or hackers will ever be caught).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 06:08:04 PM
If I ever get back on PSN I'm changing my name on there to John Smith and I live on 123 Makebelieve Street.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 06:09:18 PM
If I ever get back on PSN I'm changing my name on there to John Smith and I live on 123 Makebelieve Street.
It's too late for that. I highly suggest following the instructions on the PSN Blog and placing a Fraud Alert on your name, as I have now done. It only lasts for 90 days, but at least it's some protection.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 06:11:10 PM
I meant for the next time it gets hacked.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 06:16:12 PM
Well, let's hope it doesn't. Given that Sony's taken the PSN offline for so long (and is only tentatively promising for it to return "sometime this week"), one would hope that they are rebuilding the network to be as hacker-proof as is possible in this day and age. If for no other reason, you'd think they would do it to ward off lawsuits from victims of Identity Fraud.
It's really a shame that this is what the situation has come to, as my PS3 is by far my favorite of my 3 current gen systems and I'm on it all the time. Stuff like this really sours what is otherwise a very solid gaming experience.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Killer_Man_Jaro on April 26, 2011, 06:33:29 PM
Watching BBC News 24 as I type. One of the top stories, as the scrolling text on the screen is repeatedly telling me, looks very grim:
'Sony says an unauthorised person has stolen names, addresses and other personal data belonging to about 77 million people who have accounts on the PlayStation Network.'
Jeez. That's really serious.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on April 26, 2011, 06:57:44 PM
Hmmmmm, this kind of sucks.
I haven't bought anything through PSN so they shouldn't have my credit card number. But I'm pretty sure I used by real name and address for my account. Why wouldn't I? But then my name and address is pretty public to begin with. It is it any different then looking it up in the phone book?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 26, 2011, 07:02:29 PM
Why the hell were passwords available? They should not be storing passwords.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 07:48:48 PM
Back on subject, there's a new rumor floating around that all server-side user data has been deleted. Trophies, download records, etc., etc. Supposedly, the reason PSN has been down so long is because SONY is working like hell to attempt to recover this stuff.
Eesh, I hope not. My best friend loaned me his copy of Fallout 3 GoTY Edition the other day so I could wrap up the DLC trophies (I'd already Platinum-ed the game). Because I've changed PS3s since I got that Platinum, though, my local trophies for Fallout 3 showed as 0%. I have to synch with the servers to restore them (along with any other trophies earned before I switched PS3s last November), and it would especially suck in the case of Fallout 3 to lose them since that's a massive RPG and I don't want to do all that again.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 26, 2011, 08:00:20 PM
Why not? It's one of the two pieces of information you need to log into your PSN account.
No. You should never store passwords for the very reason that you might get hacked (or have a rouge admin). You store some sort of hash value that can be compared to the true password, but by itself, is relatively useless.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 08:01:24 PM
Eesh, I hope not. My best friend loaned me his copy of Fallout 3 GoTY Edition
Remember when I said I only had one Platinum trophy? Well, this is that game. I also got 100% in it as well. I don't know where you are at in it, but let me tell you that one where you have to hunt down 100 steel ingots is a bitch.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on April 26, 2011, 08:03:23 PM
Why the hell were passwords available? They should not be storing passwords.
Why not? It's one of the two pieces of information you need to log into your PSN account.
No one with a brain would store the actual password. You store a hash code of the password which cannot be reversed to retrieve the password. Then when the user enters the password you hash what they entered and the two codes should match. So you never have the real password. This is routine stuff that any programmer worth a **** would know. It's nice to know that programs I have personally coded beat the **** out of the security of Sony's.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 08:07:50 PM
Eesh, I hope not. My best friend loaned me his copy of Fallout 3 GoTY Edition
Remember when I said I only had one Platinum trophy? Well, this is that game. I also got 100% in it as well. I don't know where you are at in it, but let me tell you that one where you have to hunt down 100 steel ingots is a bitch.
I got all the trophies in the main game and Broken Steel. I still have to play through Operation Anchorage, The Pitt, Point Lookout, and Mothership Zeta.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 08:08:28 PM
Why the hell were passwords available? They should not be storing passwords.
Why not? It's one of the two pieces of information you need to log into your PSN account.
No one with a brain would store the actual password. You store a hash code of the password which cannot be reversed to retrieve the password. Then when the user enters the password you hash what they entered and the two codes should match. So you never have the real password. This is routine stuff that any programmer worth a **** would know. It's nice to know that programs I have personally coded beat the **** out of the security of Sony's.
Ah, OK that's what you meant. Sorry, I didn't understand what you guys meant by that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 08:09:30 PM
Well, if there's any one good thing that's come out of this whole mess, its that we finally got to see Ian bash someone other than Nintendo for a change. ;) :P:
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 08:13:34 PM
I got all the trophies in the main game and Broken Steel. I still have to play through Operation Anchorage, The Pitt, Point Lookout, and Mothership Zeta.
The steel ingot trophy I'm referring to is in The Pitt. What sucks about it is the ingots are scattered and hidden over a huge multi-leveled map and its easy to miss some, and if you do miss them it involves alot of time and backtracking to hunt them down. There are a few videos on youtube that show where they all are and these videos helped me a lot. One piece of advice I can give you that I wish I had done myself is make sure you have all the ingots in each area before you move on to the next. If you don't, then when you finish and end up a few ingots short you won't know which area you missed them in and then you have to search EVERYWHERE. Ugh...
I guarantee I'm not doing that one again. If my trophies are lost, that really sucks, but I don't have it in me to go through all of that again.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 08:18:04 PM
I guarantee I'm not doing that one again. If my trophies are lost, that really sucks, but I don't have it in me to go through all of that again.
Unless you've changed PS3s since getting those trophies, yours are probably fine. I could just be screwed because my old PS3 died and I had to switch to a new Slim model. For some reason, on certain games if you go back and play them after changing HDDs, the game wipes out your local trophy list for that game (and usually starts randomly unlocking them again, as I saw in Prince of Persia). That's usually not a big deal because you can just sync with the Sony servers and restore your original list, but if the original list is gone than I'm SOL on Fallout 3 because there's no master list to compare my local one to (the other games would be fine, as my local list would just sync-up with Sony's servers and become the new master list).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 26, 2011, 08:28:20 PM
I understand how you feel. I started playing Fallout 3 on March 6th and it took me from then until April 15th having played several hours each day until I was able to get 100%. That has to be well over 100 hours, if not 200 hours I put into that. Its definitely not like most games which you can beat in 1-2 days.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 08:57:14 PM
It looks like we might have the government (http://www.1up.com/news/psn-fiasco-prompts-connecticut-senator-demand-answers) getting on Sony's case for their handling of this security breach, at least if one Connecticut senator has anything to say about it. It's hard to say whether this is a political stunt or if the guy's actually genuine.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 26, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
Oh, great! Thanks Sony, you stupid mother fuckers! (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/psn-update-private-information-compromised-85598/)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 26, 2011, 10:15:00 PM
I am impressed. I can't help but quote Goldfinger.
Quote
Auric Goldfinger (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0002085/): Man has climbed Mount Everest, gone to the bottom of the ocean. He's fired rockets at the Moon, split the atom, achieved miracles in every field of human endeavor... except crime!
Only this time Goldfinger found Fort Knox was guarded by cardboard cutouts and the gold was already loaded on to trucks and he had a full 3 days to move it all saving him the trouble of nuking it all, leaving Bond to die of thirst chained to a box.
Makes me wonder how secure Nintendo is considering earlier this year they had that Spanish Fiasco where it was shown they had next to no security.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on April 26, 2011, 10:38:29 PM
Seeing as you have to enter the CC information every time you use it to put Reggies on, does that mean they don't store CC info at all? If that's the case, and they don't have any other personal information, they'd be fine (but it'd be security through obscurity).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 10:51:33 PM
Oh, great! Thanks Sony, you stupid mother fuckers! (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/psn-update-private-information-compromised-85598/)
Damn, PSN was hacked for 3 full days before Sony did anything about it? Great, just great. I hate to say it, but as much as I love gaming on my PS3, I might have to go with a different company next-generation. I guess that would be Microsoft since I'm currently on the fence about whether it will be worth it to spin the wheel on being a Nintendo customer again.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 11:05:45 PM
one would hope that they are rebuilding the network to be as hacker-proof as is possible in this day and age.
One would hope they would have done that in the first place...
And one would hope that Nintendo would have bothered creating a game console developers actually want to make games on, and that didn't work out very well either (3 times in a row, actually). "Coulda", "Woulda", "Shoulda"..."Didn't." Huge mistakes were made, corners cut, and the damage is done. I'm more interested in how Sony intends to make up for all this and build a stronger network (if they do at all) and console to show me that they are worth supporting after all this mess, after everything that they have now made my problem. Everything else is out of my hands as well as theirs for the time being.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 11:23:44 PM
Nintendo making a system that third parties don't want to develop on hardly equates to Sony creating a piss-poor security system for their network that stores personal data of MILLIONS of customers. You really can't even pretend those two things are in the same category.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on April 26, 2011, 11:25:55 PM
one would hope that they are rebuilding the network to be as hacker-proof as is possible in this day and age.
One would hope they would have done that in the first place...
And one would hope that Nintendo would have bothered creating a game console developers actually want to make games on, and that didn't work out very well either (3 times in a row, actually). "Coulda", "Woulda", "Shoulda"..."Didn't." Huge mistakes were made, corners cut, and the damage is done. I'm more interested in how Sony intends to make up for all this and build a stronger network (if they do at all) and console to show me that they are worth supporting after all this mess, after everything that they have now made my problem. Everything else is out of my hands as well as theirs for the time being.
At least Nintendo wasn't hacked and millions of customers had their personal information stolen, and possibly even credit card numbers. I think I feel better about the "coulda" system that developers whined about then the "Someone stole all your personal information" system.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on April 26, 2011, 11:26:50 PM
I wonder if Sony will re-emburse me for replacing my bank card.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 11:29:18 PM
Nintendo making a system that third parties don't want to develop on hardly equates to Sony creating a piss-poor security system for their network that stores personal data of MILLIONS of customers. You really can't even pretend those two things are in the same category.
I can in the sense that I expected basic developer-relations competence from Nintendo with the N64, GameCube, and Wii, and that's never come. It reminds me of an old phrase my grandma used to say: "If wishes were fishes, we'd all have a feast" (or something like that). It's nice to want things, and usually your wishes never come true. And as doubly interesting and troublesome this whole situation has been, I just want it to be over so I can go back to enjoying the PS3 gaming experience like I had before last week.
I have exactly 0 faith after 3 consoles now that Nintendo will create a console that will satisfy my tastes, I despise Microsoft's 1st party franchises, so that just leaves Sony. I want to see Sony want my business after this and bend over backwards to keep me as a customer. I'm tired on dwelling on "what happened", because yeah they screwed-up big time. My financial future is now in jeopardy due to this, but in the end we forget that this was instigated by one of those damned hackers I hate so very much now. Sony certainly has their share of blame and they could potentially lose my business after this, but I want to see how they learn from this, if they do at all because for me they are the only company left worth investing my gaming dollars in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 11:38:39 PM
You can. Just like I can compare apples to oranges. Or apples to watermelons. Or apples to rocks. Or apples to hydroplanes. That doesn't make it a fair or adequate comparison.
Nintendo made a system that developers chose not to make games for. SONY created a network that required personal information right down to your blood type, then spent approximately $5 on network security, opening the doors for hackers to have access to your personal information (not to mention the other 70+ million customers... Straight from SONY's mouth, in question #14... http://us.playstation.com/support/answer/index.htm?a_id=2356 "it is possible that the credit card number (excluding security code) and expiration date may also have been obtained."
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 26, 2011, 11:43:05 PM
Nintendo made a system that developers chose not to make games for. SONY created a network that required personal information right down to your blood type, then spent approximately $5 on network security, opening the doors for hackers to have access to your personal information (not to mention the other 70+ million customers...
The only reason crap like this hasn't happened to Nintendo is that Nintendo created the frickin' Battlestar Galactica in the Wii's only structure: a service that's so antiquated that modern hacking attempts are not as successful. :P:
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 26, 2011, 11:48:58 PM
And yet, Microsoft's network wasn't hacked, releasing the personal data of millions...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 12:00:21 AM
And yet, Microsoft's network wasn't hacked, releasing the personal data of millions...
Actually, if I remember correctly that's not entirely accurate. We've had several reported instances of account hacking on XBox Live, as recent as I believe Major Nelson's account being hacked and his identity jeopardized. There are any number of reasons why we possibly haven't seen worse on 360. Maybe Microsoft just has their **** together more than Sony (likely). Maybe all that XBL subscription money has been used to maintain a much stronger security. Maybe the hackers just haven't been all that interested in Microsoft since they haven't been as adamant about protecting their intellectual property as Sony. Maybe the hackers are your stereotypical Halo frat boys and don't want to destroy the thing that satiates them every night. A lot of things are possible, and we'll probably never really know.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SixthAngel on April 27, 2011, 12:03:35 AM
And yet, Microsoft's network wasn't hacked, releasing the personal data of millions...
Actually, if I remember correctly that's not entirely accurate. We've had several reported instances of account hacking on XBox Live, as recent as I believe Major Nelson's account being hacked and his identity jeopardized. There are any number of reasons why we possibly haven't seen worse on 360. Maybe Microsoft just has their **** together more than Sony (likely). Maybe all that XBL subscription money has been used to maintain a much stronger security. Maybe the hackers just haven't been all that interested in Microsoft since they haven't been as adamant about protecting their intellectual property as Sony. Maybe the hackers are your stereotypical Halo frat boys and don't want to destroy the thing that satiates them every night. We'll probably never know.
Those involve guessing passwords and doing things like sending emails or messages pretending to be a live rep. It happens to every network and isn't comparable to having to shut everything down because your company is terrible at security.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 27, 2011, 12:10:55 AM
I don't think devs stayed away from Nintendo because Nintendo wasn't friendly enough, I believe it was more due to the fact Nintendo hasn't had the complete crushing victory with the consoles like it has had with it's handhelds. The handhelds has very healthy support and Nintendo's dominance has shown this time and again.
As much as I like the Wii, I have forgone it this gen in favor of the handheld. That and a good computer bypasses any of the 360 VS PS3 rubbish. I would more than likely get the next Nintendo console and go back to play the backlog of Wii games.
The level of blunder Sony has shown easily places it in the Bushtm level of Incompetence. It's a multi-leveled shitwich of failure. Transmitting data in clear text. Storing data in clear text. Inadequate intrusion detection. No internal contingencies. No internal security. Non-existant communication and PR control. No plan what so ever.
Even Annon was clever enough to back off when they realised how quickly this would turn ugly. I don't think they backed off to spare the users during their DDoS(Which would have resulted in zero pernament damage), they knew or at least had figured this was going to go nuclear after seeing how much of a house of cards PSN was.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 27, 2011, 12:14:56 AM
Actually, if I remember correctly that's not entirely accurate. We've had several reported instances of account hacking on XBox Live, as recent as I believe Major Nelson's account being hacked and his identity jeopardized. There are any number of reasons why we possibly haven't seen worse on 360. Maybe Microsoft just has their **** together more than Sony (likely). Maybe all that XBL subscription money has been used to maintain a much stronger security. Maybe the hackers just haven't been all that interested in Microsoft since they haven't been as adamant about protecting their intellectual property as Sony. Maybe the hackers are your stereotypical Halo frat boys and don't want to destroy the thing that satiates them every night. A lot of things are possible, and we'll probably never really know.
That was through social engineering. I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject - Sony fucked up big time BIG TIME, as in 77 fucking million people are now potential id theft victims. This has absolutely nothing to do with 3rd parties or social engineering to get a single person's password to their XBox Live account. This is about how someone had 3 full days to steal, again, 77 fucking million people's credit card info, birthdates, passwords, addresses, secret question and answers, etc, etc. Get with it man. It's not that they didn't go after Xbox Live because they love Microsoft, it's because Sony's security FUCKING SUCKS.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 12:31:48 AM
I don't know why you keep trying to change the subject - Sony fucked up big time BIG TIME, as in 77 fucking million people are now potential id theft victims. This has absolutely nothing to do with 3rd parties or social engineering to get a single person's password to their XBox Live account. This is about how someone had 3 full days to steal, again, 77 fucking million people's credit card info, birthdates, passwords, addresses, secret question and answers, etc, etc. Get with it man. It's not that they didn't go after Xbox Live because they love Microsoft, it's because Sony's security FUCKING SUCKS.
I'm not changing the subject, only pointing out that massive ***-ups have happened from every company this generation and in previous generations. Remember the Red Ring of Death, which was a pretty massive engineering screw-up from Microsoft that cost themselves and so many gamers so much money? Look, bicker over the scraps of information we get all you want. I really don't care. I've taken steps to protect my identity in response to this, and I urge you to do the same. We're not even sure of the fallout yet (all we've heard so far are "possibilities" and conjecture), and you guys are wringing your hands and proclaiming the End of the World.
I'll make my decision on what I personally am going to do from here for my gaming needs when we have concrete reports on just what has gotten out, as well as what will happen as a result. You are free to do as you wish, and I wouldn't blame anyone for never buying a Sony product again. We could see the worst case scenario and 77 million people suffer identity fraud. We could see a few isolated cases of it, and we could see no verifiable cases at all. In these latter two cases, I would treat them as I did Sony's 2005 CD Rootkit debacle: I can admonish Sony for their screw-ups and negligence, but at the end of the day it doesn't affect me (I never purchased the affected CDs) so I don't care so long as this crap doesn't happen in the future. And I repeat: as fun and important as it is to harp on Sony for all this, one or more hackers are the ones who actually stole your information if they stole it at all. You can blame the door company for manufacturing a faulty door, but in the end it's the thief that's responsible for robbing your house.
I've spent the last week engrossed in "what Sony should have done" and "what they didn't do." I'm tired of it all. I've had enough, and I've done what I could to brace myself for anything bad that may come. I just want PSN back up, and I want them to show me that they're building a stronger network and making ammends for their mistakes. At this point, that's all anyone can ask since the consequences of Sony's screw-ups are out of anyone's hands right now besides law enforcement and the legal system.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 12:32:19 AM
Oh, great! Thanks Sony, you stupid mother fuckers! (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/psn-update-private-information-compromised-85598/)
My favorite part:
Quote
It is also interesting to note that they waited until after the press conference for their soon-to-be-released PlayStation tablet and after the stock market has closed.
I guess that would be Microsoft since I'm currently on the fence about whether it will be worth it to spin the wheel on being a Nintendo customer again.
But you're on a Nintendo fansite. And you said it was "odd" that I owned a PS3 despite hating Sony. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you not liking Nintendo, but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? If you don't like Nintendo yet you're here, then why is it wrong for me to not like Sony yet own a PS3? Also, now that you're experiencing first hand some of the disregard Sony has for its own consumers aren't you coming around a little bit to my point of view and understanding a little bit better why it is that so many people dislike them as a company?
As for being on the fence, why must it be either or? There's no reason you can't own two systems, or even all three. As long as you can afford it thats probably the best way to go because that way you have access to everything that gets published.
ETA: I really miss TJ Spyke's involvement in these conversations. His unconditional support behind anything and everything Sony does or doesn't do would really be very entertaining right about now. I'd like to hear what he has to say in Sony's defense.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 12:54:52 AM
I guess that would be Microsoft since I'm currently on the fence about whether it will be worth it to spin the wheel on being a Nintendo customer again.
But you're on a Nintendo fansite. And you said it was "odd" that I owned a PS3 despite hating Sony. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you not liking Nintendo, but isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? If you don't like Nintendo yet you're here, then why is it wrong for me to not like Sony yet own a PS3? Also, now that you're experiencing first hand some of the disregard Sony has for its own consumers aren't you coming around a little bit to my point of view and understanding a little bit better why it is that so many people dislike them as a company?
Alright, so long as we're being open here the main reason I come to this site is for the Radio Free Nintendo podcast. The podcast is what brought me to this site, my very first post here I believe was in response to one of the podcasts, and it's still the most entertaining thing about this site. Barring that, I have an affinity for some of the folks here on the forums and it's fun to talk about a wide variety of things. Besides, I don't "hate" Nintendo. They've just disappointed me far too many times over way too many years that I no longer feel it's viable to purchase a Nintendo console as a primary platform.
And I've never said that I don't understand why you folks dislike Sony. I just don't care about some of your issues, especially since many of the things folks have complained about never affected me. I'm in this for the games, and on that angle Sony has delivered this generation in many more ways than I've seen on the other consoles. From my perspective, for all the screw-ups they're the lesser of the available Evils to me.
Quote
As for being on the fence, why must it be either or? There's no reason you can't own two systems, or even all three. As long as you can afford it thats probably the best way to go because that way you have access to everything that gets published.
Because I'm not wasting money next generation like I have this generation by purchasing gaming platforms that don't justify their purchasing price. I have all 3 consoles, and you know what they are? 2 are digital download platforms (360 and Wii) and there's my PS3 as my main console. I haven't been wise with my finances the last few years, and I can't afford to do this again until I get much more stable work. So yeah, next generation I'm looking to only support 1 platform, at least until my life takes a significant improvement.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 01:04:46 AM
If Nintendo can get its act together with that Cafe thing and manage to get serious 3rd party support for it then I would be happy to have that as my one and only console. Then I won't have to deal with Sony and its shenanigans, or MS and its RROD and paying for online. I agree with you about the Wii because I was disappointed with it as well, and that's why I had to get another console. But it wasn't always like this. I don't know if you were a gamer back in the days of the NES and SNES, but back then Nintendo ruled and if a 3rd party made a game in those days odds are it was on those systems. It was only with the N64 that things went downhill.
So my hope is Cafe can bring Nintendo back to how it used to be. I hear its going to be modeled in appearance after the SNES, so that's a promising sign.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 01:11:45 AM
I don't know if you were a gamer back in the days of the NES and SNES, but back then Nintendo ruled and if a 3rd party made a game in those days odds are it was on those systems. It was only with the N64 that things went downhill.
Yep, I've been a Nintendo gamer since I was 5 in 1988 (birthday's tomorrow, btw. Man, I feel old), and to me the SNES was the epitome of everything that was great about gaming (its RPG library has only been seriously challenged by the PS2). While there have been plenty of good games on the Nintendo systems that have followed, they always come with a price (lack of variety, lack of 3rd party support, lack of games period for extended periods of time, etc.). Hence my growing apathy with Nintendo in general.
Quote
So my hope is Cafe can bring Nintendo back to how it used to be. I hear its going to be modeled in appearance after the SNES, so that's a promising sign.
Believe it or not, I would be ecstatic if the Wii's successor did just that. If we got the second coming of the SNES, that would be a dream come true.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on April 27, 2011, 01:13:11 AM
[Because I'm not wasting money next generation like I have this generation by purchasing gaming platforms that don't justify their purchasing price. I have all 3 consoles, and you know what they are? 2 are digital download platforms (360 and Wii) and there's my PS3 as my main console. I haven't been wise with my finances the last few years, and I can't afford to do this again until I get much more stable work. So yeah, next generation I'm looking to only support 1 platform, at least until my life takes a significant improvement.
I can understand that point of view. I've gone through stages where each console was my main console. Right now, it seems to be the PS3 also. The Xbox has turned into an awesome media center and if I could have one in every room I would. The Wii has now been moved into my girls' playroom so they can watch Netflix. I want to play the Wii, but during the day the sunlight plays with the pointer, and at night I have friends online that I would rather play with who don't own a Wii. If the new Nintendo delivers a system that doesn't chase away developers I'm for it though. There's bound to be some games that won't be compatible with the other systems and worth the time to play.
Edit: And you feel old for being born in 1983? In two years I'll be 40. Yikes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 01:18:44 AM
The one thing which is making me very optimistic about the 3rd party support on Cafe is that its supposed to be so similar in architecture to the 360 which means multi-platform support is trivial to achieve. Of course, you never know what 3rd parties are going to do and even if its something trivial that doesn't necessarily mean they will do it, but at least this time they have fewer excuses than they did before.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 27, 2011, 01:51:18 AM
Broodwars: I can understand your willingness to argue for your favorite company this generation, but damn, this is by far the worse thing to happen to console consumers since its inception. But what made it even worse was Sony's attitude. A levee broke, yet they had no idea why consumers were drowning. I know Nintendo and Microsoft are internally trading high-fives, as it makes anything they've ever messed up seem minuscule.
But you're right, maybe nothing will come of this. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, however. Like I said before, there are easy ways people can still protect themselves, but again, that's not the point -- Incompetence is.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 02:15:50 AM
Remember how the PS3 validation thing ended up being the number 4? That shows the sort of incompetence at work in Sony. The PS3 security was easily breached, and now the PSN has been easily breached as well. These are two separate and distinct entities, yet both were breached easily and in short order.
So its not like this PSN thing is a one time thing. It happened with the PS3 hardware, and with god knows what else.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 27, 2011, 02:18:31 AM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on April 27, 2011, 06:06:14 AM
I can't defend Sony for their big wet failure, but situations like this is why i insist everyone (everyone if you don't like them) to use a credit card when online. Even if you're under 18, just get a prepaid one.
I'm going to play it safe and cancel/replace that card this week.
At this point now, to me at least, it's less about "how did this happen?" but more into "how can i take precautions?"
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on April 27, 2011, 08:22:58 AM
Indeed. It would be worse if your debit or checking account is stolen.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 27, 2011, 08:41:51 AM
I had to replace my debit card in March, and never got around to updating my PSN account, so the card I have in Sony's system was canceled a month ago.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 27, 2011, 02:42:20 PM
This came up in a staff email thread, and I made the following comment:
I think it says something that even after all this, I'd still trade the Wii's online system for PSN.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on April 27, 2011, 03:13:53 PM
You know what really stinks is I bought Portal 2 last week because I specifically wanted to play co-op with the people here while they were playing and my Son was away. It had to go down the only week I cared but, at least Netflix still works.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 04:13:08 PM
Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/116/1164392p1.html) filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach. You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.
Incidentally, in the UK we also have the government Information Commissioner's Office (yes, yes...the team ICO jokes write themselves) also beginning a full investigation (http://www.destructoid.com/uk-officials-demanding-answers-over-psn-situation-199744.phtml) into Sony's weak PSN security, with allegedly potential fines of 500,000 pounds if they don't like what they find.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on April 27, 2011, 04:17:12 PM
Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/116/1164392p1.html) filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach. You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.
Over here it's more serious as Sony is bound by law under the Data Protection Act to keep information safe and if ANYTHING gets out they're going to get huge fines.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
Well, as I suspected would happen, we now have a Class-Action Lawsuit (http://ps3.ign.com/articles/116/1164392p1.html) filed against Sony regarding the PSN Security Breach. You can read more of the details at the link I provided, but in general the lawsuit seeks to obtain the full extent of the damages this hacker made, as well as ascertaining what precautions (if any) Sony took to prevent it, with potential monetary damages depending on what information got out.
Over here it's more serious as Sony is bound by law under the Data Protection Act to keep information safe and if ANYTHING gets out they're going to get huge fines.
Yeah, I was modifying my original post to include that information and a link to the Destructoid article about it when you posted that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 27, 2011, 07:32:02 PM
I saw a news article that mentioned something along thelines if this potentially costing Sony $24billion.
Its sounds ridiculous, which is why I didn't post it, but it seems like this could still be a very costly mistake.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 08:48:52 PM
$240 million makes more sense. I could even believe $2.4 billion maybe, but $24 billion is ridiculous. The article probably meant $2.4 billion but forgot the decimal.
Wouldn't it be something if this whole mess actually drives Sony out of business?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 27, 2011, 08:52:11 PM
Actually, it was talking about worst case credit card losses based on poor assumptions, including that every PSN user had a credit card on file.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 27, 2011, 09:21:06 PM
How is 2.4 billion ridiculous? $240 million is like a slap on the wrist, that's $3 per person who was a victim of their bullshit, $2.4 billion is only $30 a pop. This is like criminal neglect, 77 million counts of it. This whole mess is probably going to ruin a lot of people's lives, so if it drives Sony out of business, then **** them, they deserve it. I like how the PSN TOS says they have no liability if someone steals our info, too bad the law says otherwise.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on April 27, 2011, 09:25:55 PM
The cost was assuming it would cost $312 per PSN account to provide full compensation for the breach. With over 70+ million accounts, that's where $24bn comes from.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on April 27, 2011, 09:35:12 PM
I've been in about 4 class action suites most of them won and guess how much I've gotten from them. $0 The only people who make any money of these things are the lawyers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 10:07:11 PM
I've been in about 4 class action suites most of them won and guess how much I've gotten from them. $0 The only people who make any money of these things are the lawyers.
Indeed. It's probably mutually beneficial for both Sony and us if Sony themselves just compensates us for their mistakes, as we'll never see anything from Class Action Lawsuits even if the consumers win. Whatever happens, though, Sony's made their bed with the PSN and now they have to deal with the consequences. I don't want Sony destroyed by this, as I feel they offer a truly great gaming experience that benefits the industry as a whole in their own way. Besides, they and Microsoft balance each other out well. But I do want them taught a hard lesson, and I want them to show their consumers that they will bend over backwards to make amends for it. It's the only way they can possibly recover from this. And I still want that goddamn hacker caught, as no one seems to be following the fact that this guy so far seems to have gotten away with it while everyone's been busy yelling at Sony for their role in this.
In all honesty, I wonder if we're going to look back on this as a "good thing" in the grander scheme of things. I wonder how many people got a good, hard, important lesson with this debacle about the fragility of online financing and how important it is to keep an eye on your credit cards online (even when using sites that you would think could ordinarily be trusted). At least something good could come out of this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 27, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
Well, the Playstation Blog's begun Damage Control with a press release answering a few common questions (for some reason, I'm surprised they didn't answer the commonly asked silly question about whether trophies are safe), which you can find here (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/27/qa-1-for-playstation-network-and-qriocity-services/). Sony's now saying that they merely warned their customers about a potential leak of credit card information for the sake of being careful, and that they do not think that information was stolen (as they state that it was encrypted). They are completely certain that personal information was stolen, though, as that was not encrypted. Well, we'll see. I hope they're right, though I suspect not.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on April 27, 2011, 11:12:58 PM
=
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 27, 2011, 11:57:11 PM
This sort of criminal neglect by a mega corp is comparable to the BP oil spill, which actually happened a year before on the exact same day.
I hope Sony does get ruined by this. This is only one of about a hundred reasons why the company deserves to die. Plus if they were removed from the market it would do wonders for Nintendo.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 28, 2011, 12:26:13 AM
It's nice to have Sony around pushing the Tech Envelope and making what was too expensive, now affordable.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TrueNerd on April 28, 2011, 12:34:29 AM
I never thought I'd say this, but I am thrilled my credit card got physically stolen a month ago. I never put my new one on PSN. Enjoy my canceled credit card number, suckers!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: King of Twitch on April 28, 2011, 12:35:56 AM
Talk like that Chozo Ghost and you're going to get me all hot and bothered.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 28, 2011, 03:26:10 AM
Well they just sent me a long winded email about what I can do to protect myself including contacting the FTC.
I don't have a CC on file nor have I used my PSN account since my PS3 was jailbroken back in October. Still, crazy ****.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 28, 2011, 04:36:29 AM
How much harm can someone do with just your name, address, and birthday? Is this information something that we need to worry about falling into the wrong hands? Its not like they have SSN numbers, and the name and address stuff could always have been obtained from a phone book anyway, so is that something we need to worry about?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on April 28, 2011, 07:01:15 AM
How much harm can someone do with just your name, address, and birthday? Is this information something that we need to worry about falling into the wrong hands? Its not like they have SSN numbers, and the name and address stuff could always have been obtained from a phone book anyway, so is that something we need to worry about?
Going on words I can remember from listening to podcasts all day, the personal information (which includes answers to challenge questions) can be used by a thief to gain control to an account through "Forgot Password" challenge questions or a customer service representative. The latter is a method of social engineering, I think?
It's nice to have Sony around pushing the Tech Envelope and making what was too expensive, now affordable.
Hmm, aren't there other electronics companies like Samsung and Panasonic to fill the hypothetical Sony void? Then again, from what I hear in Consumer Electronics Shows, Sony has the skunk works putting out some truly crazy concepts and prototypes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on April 28, 2011, 08:04:55 AM
Well they just sent me a long winded email about what I can do to protect myself including contacting the FTC.
I don't have a CC on file nor have I used my PSN account since my PS3 was jailbroken back in October. Still, crazy ****.
I got that email as well. Doesn't seem like it's any more information than what was posted on their blog, but I guess it's nice they decided to email users in case they don't read the blog regularly...7 days later...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on April 28, 2011, 10:16:22 AM
It's nice to have Sony around pushing the Tech Envelope and making what was too expensive, now affordable.
Hmm, aren't there other electronics companies like Samsung and Panasonic to fill the hypothetical Sony void? Then again, from what I hear in Consumer Electronics Shows, Sony has the skunk works putting out some truly crazy concepts and prototypes.
None of those other tech companies are producing tech on the same volume a Sony. I'm talking about things like Bluray players in the PS3 & OLED screens in the NGP (Cell and whatever else they pack in and sell at a loss). Those are all things Sony is willing to eat the cost of to mass produce in high enough volume so that it not only becomes cheaper for them, but everyone else too.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 28, 2011, 10:19:06 AM
Good news, everyone. You don't have to worry about your credit card info in the wake of this huge SONY breach. SONY said that the credit card numbers on their servers were encrypted.
And SONY's really good at encrypting things... (http://xkcd.com/221/)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 28, 2011, 11:17:21 AM
There's also really no proof at this point that whoever hacked the PSN really cared about committing credit fraud anyway. For all we know it may have just been the result of self righteous hackers who wanted to **** things up for Sony because of the whole GeoHotz thing. Don't you think the timing of this is a little strange? It happened not long after Anon declared war on Sony. While Anon themselves denied involvement, it may have been the work of a more hardline splinter group.
So until we know otherwise there's no particular reason to think the hackers were after credit card info. They may have just wanted to throw a monkey wrench into the PSN and mess things up for Sony just for the sake of causing mischief and giving Sony a headache. That said, they may have even feigned going after CC info because they knew that would cause more problems and public outcry against Sony (and it has).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 28, 2011, 11:24:31 AM
It was either:
A) A group of hackers who just wanted to screw with SONY, or B) A group of hackers who were legitimately after useful data.
Obviously, those in group B are a concern. Those in group A... well, what better way to screw with SONY than to actually get the credit card numbers, abuse them, then leave SONY on the legal hook for not protecting consumer data? Even if they didn't set out to acquire something like credit card information, *if* they managed to access it, the temptation would be awfully, awfully sweet.
Either way, I wouldn't be a fan of those odds.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 28, 2011, 11:31:18 AM
Its possible that the hackers involved in this do have a conscience and wouldn't want to commit fraud against innocent consumers. We don't really know their motives or objectives at this point. I just think the timing is interesting. If this happened months from now out of the blue it would be one thing, but this happened on the tail of the Geohotz/Anon thing so I think there is a strong possibility it is just something related to that, and if that's the case then its less likely credit fraud was the objective. But like I said, all we can do is speculate.
Naturally, whoever did this isn't going to want to openly blog and admit they did it and explain what they did and why. Especially with the FBI actively investigating this. They may not have harmed consumers or wanted to harm consumers, but they harmed Sony and the legal penalties I would imagine would be pretty severe. So I don't think we're going to get any answers from whoever was behind it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on April 28, 2011, 03:49:38 PM
Quote
Financial Fraud Action (FFA), which represents card firms, says Sony is due to pass it the details of all card numbers that may have been stolen, which FFA will then distribute to banks and building societies.
FFA says this is standard procedure after a hack.
It therefore says anyone who has entered their card number on the PlayStation network does not need to contact their provider as firms will cancel many cards automatically.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 28, 2011, 08:20:47 PM
It doesn't matter if it were self-righteous hackers or just thieves, the outcome would be the same. And I think whomever did it, did it now so people would assume they were the first even if they were the latter.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on April 28, 2011, 09:12:57 PM
Something posted on the PlayStation blog today - as part of the closing of the barn door after the horse escaped, they're relocating the servers.
They also emphasized that there were physical measures in place to prevent breaches.
Why would they emphasize that?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 28, 2011, 09:38:51 PM
Is that suggesting someone physically hacked the servers? As in, someone was physically in the same room as where the servers are located and hacked them from there?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 28, 2011, 09:43:48 PM
Is that suggesting someone physically hacked the servers? As in, someone was physically in the same room as where the servers are located and hacked them from there?
Unlikely, since allegedly this was going on for 3 days before the hacker was discovered. Besides, it would be even more likely that the hacker would be caught if they were actually doing it in person. We'd have likely heard about it by now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 28, 2011, 09:52:23 PM
(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1927/mi1fe.jpg) (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/mi1fe.jpg/) I H4XX0RZ UR S3RV4!!!111!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 28, 2011, 10:27:12 PM
It is fun to think this was some Mission Impossible type operation, as opposed to some 400 pound hacker doing this from his parent's basement. Most likely it was the latter, but it would be awesome if it was the former and that's the sort of thing Sony Pictures could make a movie about.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 28, 2011, 10:42:30 PM
It's just really strange that they have decided to relocate at all as if they realised their on site security was as poor as their online security. It might have been easier for someone to get physical access than to hack their way through. I doubt it was Sony themselves that suggested the move since that costs substantial amounts of money, more likely the security consultants they had to bring in to put out the fire.
Oh one more thing, when they said the Credit Card data was encrypted, that could mean anything. If I shift every letter 2 to the right "A" becomes a "C" etc it's "encrypted". There is no such thing as unbreakable encryption that isn't a one time pad, it is always a factor of time and power. What might take a million years for a desktop might take a month for a guy with a bot net.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 29, 2011, 02:57:57 AM
The PS Blog's been updated with more answers (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/04/28/qa-2-for-playstation-network-and-qriocity-services/) to commonly asked questions about the hack. In short, all trophies are safe (knew they'd answer that one eventually), your download history is safe, they're going to be hosting special events for players of their subscription games as well as implementing a "make good" plan for them (which I assume means giving free weeks in exchange for the ones lost), and they're currently "examining" reparations for players who have been "patient" with the downtime.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 29, 2011, 03:14:13 AM
Every PSN user should get a $50 PSN credit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 29, 2011, 07:38:00 AM
Every PSN user should be released from the TOS of the PlayStation Network, and you should be allowed to use your console as you please, since you own it. Oh, and this investigation should go on for years, and anyone who becomes financially effected by this ID theft should be able to sue Sony for all damages, and then some. Anything less is bullshit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on April 29, 2011, 07:41:07 AM
Realistically, we'll be lucky to get a free PSN game, if anything. Probably looking at maybe a free month of Playstation Plus, the way this article reads. (http://www.pcworld.com/article/226674/sony_hints_at_compensation_for_playstation_network_hack.html)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 29, 2011, 08:38:42 AM
That won't be good enough, and the lawsuits will come pouring in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 29, 2011, 08:43:00 AM
I'm not sure why anyone thinks SONY is automatically going to give them anything. It's not like SONY has a history of giving two flips about removing advertised features from their consoles. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 29, 2011, 10:16:36 AM
One reader, who wished to remain anonymous, told us that he was informed by Sony yesterday that his credit card may have been compromised. He check with his card issuer and found two charges totaling $400 that he had never made. He called his issuer and had the charges reversed. He had his card canceled and ordered a replacement.
Uh oh.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on April 29, 2011, 10:32:00 AM
That won't be good enough, and the lawsuits will come pouring in.
There's already a class action for it. (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/gamehunters/post/2011/04/first-class-action-suit-filed-over-playstation-network-breach/1)
Wasn't saying that compensation was adequate, just that it's the most I would expect from Sony, as that would cost them very little.
Security researchers said Thursday that they had seen discussions on underground Internet forums indicating that the hackers who infiltrated the Sony PlayStation Network (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/25/sony-playstation-network-hacked/) last week may have made off with the credit card numbers of Sony customers. The comments indicated that the hackers had a database that included customer names, addresses, usernames, passwords and as many as 2.2 million credit card numbers, the researchers said. Kevin Stevens, senior threat researcher at the security firm Trend Micro (http://us.trendmicro.com/us/home/), said he had seen talk of the database on several hacker forums, including indications that the Sony hackers were hoping to sell the credit card list for upwards of $100,000. Mr. Stevens said one forum member told him the hackers had even offered to sell the data back to Sony but did not receive a response from the company."
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 29, 2011, 12:37:31 PM
One reader, who wished to remain anonymous, told us that he was informed by Sony yesterday that his credit card may have been compromised. He check with his card issuer and found two charges totaling $400 that he had never made. He called his issuer and had the charges reversed. He had his card canceled and ordered a replacement.
Uh oh.
I'm a bit skeptical because that article is full of things like:
Quote
Hackers are saying on underground internet chat rooms
Quote
one forum member told him
Quote
One reader, who wished to remain anonymous
So this amounts to little more than hearsay, and anonymous hearsay at that. Who is saying these things? Some unknown person on an undisclosed forum who wishes to remain anonymous? I think we need some more proof than that. I'm not saying this isn't true, but you also can't believe everything you hear either (especially when the source is some anonymous person on the internet).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 29, 2011, 02:01:57 PM
You should have read the beginning of the article. They got all there information, except for the part I quoted, from the NY Times. (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/hackers-claim-to-have-playstation-users-card-data/)
I found that part to be the most intriguing, though unreliable.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 29, 2011, 02:03:06 PM
I see Sony is still advertising Qriocity on Hulu...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on April 29, 2011, 02:17:50 PM
I canceled my DC Universe online subscription a couple months ago, but they probably still had my CC # on file, didn't they?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 29, 2011, 02:48:30 PM
Yuuupppp
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 29, 2011, 06:28:34 PM
Keep in mind, however that your credit card security code (sometimes called a CVC or CSC number) has not been obtained because we never requested it from anyone who has joined the PlayStation Network or Qriocity, and is therefore not stored anywhere in our system.
Now:
Quote
UPDATE: While we do ask for CCV codes, we do not store them in our database.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: nickmitch on April 29, 2011, 07:40:32 PM
Credit card companies should be able to compensate all losses and possibly trace any purchases made. Sony shouldn't even have to compensate for that. Plus, PSN is a free service, so unless you're subcribed to anything that uses the service or the PSN Plus or whatever, they don't really owe you ****. On the other hand, if you are paying for something, they should just go the Netflix route and give you a week free. Other than that, Sony shouldn't have to do more than give people a little something for the inconvenience.
Just playing devil's advocate.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 29, 2011, 07:53:10 PM
Few things - one, if it's a debit card tied to the account, it can be a major hassle, as debit transactions are totally different than credit transactions.
Two, forcing credit card companies to trace down/eat fraudulent charges raises prices for everyone.
Three, it costs $3-$5 for a replacement debit/credit card (some banks charge the individual for these as well)... Who's going to get to eat those costs?
Fourth, Individuals may have made the decision to purchase their $300+ system (and $60 games) based on SONY's claims of online multi-player. Even if you're not paying a monthly fee, you still paid for the service.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 29, 2011, 08:34:02 PM
Unfortunately, Sony isn't legally obligated to reciprocate anything other than DCU Online; subscribed Free Realms players; and possibly PSN Plus customers (though since that program pretty much just gives you discounts on stuff you play offline, I highly doubt it will be reciprocated). It's still in their best interest from a PR stance to give their customers something to make up for everything that's happened.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on April 29, 2011, 09:34:20 PM
If it's shown that they weren't maintaining PCI security standard, the credit card companies can go after them and some states governments too, I believe.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 30, 2011, 01:10:31 AM
After revealing that they did, in fact, ask for the security code - it lends slightly more credibility to the purported 2.2 million credit card numbers that supposedly had the security code with them. *IF* those turn out to be the real deal, then SONY is going to be in a crap load of trouble, as they're not supposed to store the security code in any format what-so-ever.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 30, 2011, 01:17:23 AM
PSN is a free service, so unless you're subcribed to anything that uses the service or the PSN Plus or whatever, they don't really owe you ****.
While that much may be true, Sony still owes something to the millions of users whose credit card information which has been compromised. It is a hassle to replace the credit cards, and apparently it also costs a fee to do that. So for both the hassle and the fee of credit card replacement Sony owes people something. Like I said, a $50 PSN credit for each user would be ideal and would help defuse some of the lynch mob that is going to be knocking on Sony's door over this. Anything less such as a free month trial of PS Plus would be a bunch of crap and a slap in the face.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 30, 2011, 08:17:11 AM
It doesn't matter if you paid for the service or not - if SONY has your CC info, if means you paid for SOMETHING at some point, and they failed to protect your information that SONY requested from you, so there has to be some accountability. I don't give a flying **** about trophies, my family's financial situation is just a tad more important. I don't want a $50 PSN credit, I'd rather have $50. It doesn't matter anyway, I'll just wait for the lawsuit like everyone else and hopefully get something out of it. As long as it hurts SONY financially, the customers win.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 30, 2011, 09:45:26 AM
$50 bucks for 77 million people? That's over 3.5 billion. There is no way they are going to do that, even in credit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 30, 2011, 09:56:27 AM
But there's little overhead for the stuff on PSN because its digital downloads. Sony charges $3.5 billion, but it wouldn't cost Sony $3.5 billion. See my point? Also, of those 77 million accounts many of them may be abandoned anyway so the credit wouldn't even be redeemed in every case.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on April 30, 2011, 10:03:39 AM
It doesn't matter anyway, I'll just wait for the lawsuit like everyone else and hopefully get something out of it. As long as it hurts SONY financially, the customers win.
The hack and theft of our info has definitely hurt Sony financially, but I would hardly call it a win for us customers who have this CC info lost. You can claim that it finally forces Sony to take security more seriously, and our info will be safer, but the damage is always done.
This reminds me of when a McDonald's in my hometown was reported to have gotten people sick with Hepatitis C. The whole McDonald's was shut down and basically quarantined, scrubbed from head to toe, and the employees were re-trained on the importance of cleanliness in the workplace (the ones that weren't fired). That McDonalds might be the cleanest one in the planet now, but I doubt the people who got Hep C would say it was a net win for the consumer.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 30, 2011, 10:30:43 AM
It's not as bad as another number I heard. Should the Credit card companies go after Sony, a figure I heard was $200 per lost record. If you were to assume that every single one of those accounts had a credit card attached(Not true) it works out to 15.4 Billion dollars. This is a sort of worse case senario assuming the CC companies don't ever want Sony to trade anything ever again either via destruction or inability to use CCs in the future.
However no doubt the CC companies will be taking their pound of flesh from Sony which will cost tens to hundreds of millions of dollars for card replacements, monitoring, auditing and punitive fines.
None of this takes into account the number of investigations worldwide from governments Sony is going to have to endure and the costs of resulting fines/investigations. Homeland Security(WAT?!LOL) and the FBI have been tasked in the US.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 30, 2011, 11:10:03 AM
What he said.
If it turns out that SONY screwed up here (for example, storing personal data in plain text, storing security codes, etc., etc) this could get really bad for SONY. Between compensating the credit card companies (per SONY's agreements with them), compensating users and any government fines/damages put on them... This could be pretty nasty.
Then again, BP is still around... so anything could happen.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on April 30, 2011, 11:35:10 AM
Sony doesn't enjoy the protection of being a strategic asset, a smaller contractor to deflect blame on, endless bribe money from oil, dead people to blame, *relatively* geographically isolated incident that only directly pissed off one country and executives they can throw under the bus.
They could blame the foreigner running their company I guess. Howard Stringer hasn't exactly revitalised the company with the company stagnating or in slow death financially.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 30, 2011, 12:32:45 PM
If they did PSN, it would cost Sony at least 50% of that, if not more. That all depends on what's downloaded. I'm sure game contracts are different than movie or show contracts. I do not know how much profit the companies (which Sony would have to pay) makes from each download.
It's still in the BILLIONS. That's for sure.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 30, 2011, 02:39:14 PM
Well, they could give everyone a PSN credit which would only apply to the items on PSN which Sony owns the rights to. I admit that is far from everything available on PSN, but that does represent a substantial chunk of it anyway. But if they are going to limit the credit to only Sony products then they should make it a $100 credit.
Or something.... I dunno. They need to give consumers something to make up for all this bullshit, stress, hassle, and financial losses this is causing. They can't cheap out with something like a free month trial or something cheap like that, but on the other hand they aren't going to bankrupt themselves either. But it has to be something in between. If they do nothing its going to hurt them more in the long run because they will lose much of their fanbase.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on April 30, 2011, 02:47:28 PM
Listen, they are going to give nothing unless forced to. And if they are forced to, it's going to be checks in the mail. The court wouldn't order them to send money or credit for the same system that was hacked.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 30, 2011, 03:29:19 PM
Listen, they are going to give nothing unless forced to. And if they are forced to, it's going to be checks in the mail. The court wouldn't order them to send money or credit for the same system that was hacked.
And if they are "forced to", it'll be $15 checks that would at best arrive somewhere around 2015. The only way consumers will see anything actually real out of this is if Sony believes they need to make amends that way voluntarily.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on April 30, 2011, 03:39:38 PM
It's probably telling that thus far, they haven't offered even an apology.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on April 30, 2011, 04:21:02 PM
Maybe Kevin Butler will apologize for the credit card info being hacked in a future "Dear Playstation" commercial?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on April 30, 2011, 04:48:14 PM
They'll send everyone a coupon for $5 off the purchase of a brand new NGP.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 30, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
Well, I just bought a new PS3 game, so I hope PSN is up by when it gets here on Tuesday so I can download the updates.
If your game has updates, it will still find and download them when you boot up the game. I tested that over the last week while I was on vacation. Despite PSN being down, I could still download patches for Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on April 30, 2011, 05:50:43 PM
Well, I just bought a new PS3 game, so I hope PSN is up by when it gets here on Tuesday so I can download the updates.
If your game has updates, it will still find and download them when you boot up the game. I tested that over the last week while I was on vacation. Despite PSN being down, I could still download patches for Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2.
I think the updates I care about require PSN. I bought MLB The Show, and the Indians had to have been terrible in the rosters on the disc, so I want the updated ones. I'm pretty sure previous versions of the game that I've owned required a connection to PSN to get roster updates.
I'd have bought a baseball game on 360, but 2K baseball games have never been good, and they have the exclusive. Luckily that ends next year, and it doesn't sound like Take Two wants to extend it, so I'm already super excited for MVP Baseball 2013.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on April 30, 2011, 06:58:16 PM
I'm surei t's been said already, but crap like this is just another reason why DMR games are terrible idea. What if I want to play Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 or that Streets of Rage HD remake? I can't because the PSN is down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on April 30, 2011, 09:03:53 PM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on April 30, 2011, 11:09:04 PM
Another thing Sony absolutely needs to do (well, it's already way too late), is bite the bullet like Microsoft did, and offer a 3 year warranty against the Yellow Light of Death. Our shop probably gets 15 YLOD PS3 consoles a week (definitely more PS3s than 360s now), and Sony wants $175 to fix it. We probably get at least 4 or 5 consoles that need a new Blu Ray laser each week too. I don't mind fixing those as much (it's typically pretty simple, except there's about 7 different drives versions, and 3 different laser models), but they are pretty costly to replace. They couldn't give any less of a **** about the enemy (consumers) if they tried. They are a despicable corporation.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on April 30, 2011, 11:30:41 PM
Another thing Sony absolutely needs to do (well, it's already way too late), is bite the bullet like Microsoft did, and offer a 3 year warranty against the Yellow Light of Death. Our shop probably gets 15 YLOD PS3 consoles a week (definitely more PS3s than 360s now), and Sony wants $175 to fix it. We probably get at least 4 or 5 consoles that need a new Blu Ray laser each week too. I don't mind fixing those as much (it's typically pretty simple, except there's about 7 different drives versions, and 3 different laser models), but they are pretty costly to replace. They couldn't give any less of a **** about the enemy (consumers) if they tried. They are a despicable corporation.
What's especially nasty about the YLoD (and I speak from experience on this, as I took my old PS3 in many times to be "fixed" for it) is that there is no such thing as "fixing" the issue. Once a unit Yellow-Lights from overheating (unless something is just plain blocking the sensor), the best you can do is stick bandaids on it at regular intervals to keep it working. The only true fix is to replace the entire motherboard, and I don't know if Sony actually does that (none of the repair shops I went to did that. They just soldered everything back together and gave it back to me).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 01, 2011, 01:39:34 AM
News out of Hirai's Press Conference: Sony estimates that 10 million actual PSN users had credit cards tied to their accounts. All users will receive a free PSN download(s) (they do not say what the download(s) will be), 30 free days of Playstation Plus membership for new and existing PS+ members, and 30 days of Qriocity service. They're also considering paying to replace affected credit cards.
As for the security changes, read more here (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/01/psn-outage-plus-qriocity-free/).
Overall, it was pretty much what was largely expected and rumored. I couldn't care less about Qriocity, I'm already a PS+ member, and they don't say what the download(s) will be. Still, at least it's something out of Sony to make up for all this.
Title: PS3 Hacker GeoHot Calls Sony Executives Crazy, Arrogant
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 01, 2011, 06:12:10 AM
GeoHot weighs in on the PSN situation: http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/219136/ps3-hacker-geohot-calls-sony-executives-crazy-arrogant/
Quote
Claiming no responsibility for the current incident, Hotz instead established his formal position on the PSN attack, insinuating that the hackers responsible make the modding community at large look bad. Hotz also took Sony's executives to task, stating that the engineers within the company were not at fault. Instead, Hotz implied that Sony's higher-ups provoked the hacking/modding community with arrogant attitudes and poor technical practices. "Now until more information is revealed on the technicals, I can only speculate, but I bet Sony's arrogance and misunderstanding of ownership put them in this position. Sony execs probably haughtily chuckled at the idea of threat modeling.
Sony needs to accept that they no longer own and control the PS3 when they sell it to you. Notice it's only PSN that gave away all your personal data, not Xbox Live when the 360 was hacked, not iTunes when the iPhone was jailbroken, and not GMail when Android was rooted. Because other companies aren't crazy."
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 01, 2011, 10:13:04 AM
News out of Hirai's Press Conference: Sony estimates that 10 million actual PSN users had credit cards tied to their accounts. All users will receive a free PSN download(s) (they do not say what the download(s) will be), 30 free days of Playstation Plus membership for new and existing PS+ members, and 30 days of Qriocity service. They're also considering paying to replace affected credit cards.
More than what I expected (I assumed just a free trial of Playstation +), although it remains to be seen what these "free downloads" are (I would expect games released by Sony, themes, and cosmetic gifts).
GeoHot weighs in on the PSN situation: http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/219136/ps3-hacker-geohot-calls-sony-executives-crazy-arrogant/ (http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/219136/ps3-hacker-geohot-calls-sony-executives-crazy-arrogant/)
Quote
Claiming no responsibility for the current incident, Hotz instead established his formal position on the PSN attack, insinuating that the hackers responsible make the modding community at large look bad. Hotz also took Sony's executives to task, stating that the engineers within the company were not at fault. Instead, Hotz implied that Sony's higher-ups provoked the hacking/modding community with arrogant attitudes and poor technical practices. "Now until more information is revealed on the technicals, I can only speculate, but I bet Sony's arrogance and misunderstanding of ownership put them in this position. Sony execs probably haughtily chuckled at the idea of threat modeling.
Sony needs to accept that they no longer own and control the PS3 when they sell it to you. Notice it's only PSN that gave away all your personal data, not Xbox Live when the 360 was hacked, not iTunes when the iPhone was jailbroken, and not GMail when Android was rooted. Because other companies aren't crazy."
I have no problems with Geohot, but he makes some broad assumptions about what is at fault. I would wager it was executive incompetence before arrogance, although that is as much speculation as his post at this point. Only Sony knows truly who is at fault at this stage.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 01, 2011, 10:21:18 AM
PlayStation Plus is garbage. It's the same thing as regular PSN, but you might get to download a demo a few days earlier, or get some bullshit DLC or something. It's useless, and their "gift" is a slap in the face to all customers. Ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand, btw.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 01, 2011, 10:27:18 AM
PlayStation Plus is garbage. It's the same thing as regular PSN, but you might get to download a demo a few days earlier, or get some bullshit DLC or something. It's useless, and their "gift" is a slap in the face to all customers. Ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand, btw.
I didn't say I was happy with the compensation, but I guess at least I get to do the inFamous 2 beta.
Like I said, my comment was pure speculation, but was just making a comment that so was Geohot's. Ignorance and arrogance are mutually exclusive. They can occur at the same time, but that doesn't mean there's correlation.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 01, 2011, 11:17:59 AM
PlayStation Plus is garbage. It's the same thing as regular PSN, but you might get to download a demo a few days earlier, or get some bullshit DLC or something. It's useless, and their "gift" is a slap in the face to all customers. Ignorance and arrogance go hand in hand, btw.
PS Plus isn't garbage. Its problem is that its value is highly dependent on what discounts, what free titles, and what exclusive demos come out every week. Sony could easily limit their costs on this by simply not putting out anything of value for discount or free download during this 1 month bonus. Or they could actually treat this as a marketing opportunity and put loads of stuff people care about out on the service. It's hard to say which way Sony will go.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 01, 2011, 12:11:05 PM
It would be in Sony's best interest to make the service as appealing as possible during that period. A lot of people who weren't sold on PS Plus will be trying it out of curiosity, and this is Sony's chance to win them over and turn them into paying customers of the service. I got it for three months a while back to get the preview version of the Hulu Plus app, and I thought it was okay, but didn't resubscribe at the end of that. I'd been considering trying it again, as a couple of the features are interesting to me, especially the automatic background downloading of system updates, so this is nice for me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 01, 2011, 01:35:54 PM
Listen to Metallica's Holier Than Thou. James Hetfield says they go hand in hand, therefore it is the truth. GeoHot, while arrogant himself, is pretty dead-on with his statements about this though.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 01, 2011, 06:45:08 PM
It would be in Sony's best interest to make the service as appealing as possible during that period. A lot of people who weren't sold on PS Plus will be trying it out of curiosity, and this is Sony's chance to win them over and turn them into paying customers of the service. I got it for three months a while back to get the preview version of the Hulu Plus app, and I thought it was okay, but didn't resubscribe at the end of that. I'd been considering trying it again, as a couple of the features are interesting to me, especially the automatic background downloading of system updates, so this is nice for me.
The background update downloading is a godsend, since most of my firmware updates and patches now install when I'm otherwise not using the system. To be frank, that feature should be a normal feature of the system rather than a PSN+ Perk. And like I said, I agree that it would be in Sony's best public relations and advertising interest to really bring out the goods during this month of free PSN+. I just wonder whether Sony will actually do that, or if they'll try to minimize the damages by putting out things for free or discounted that most people don't care about anyway.
Something else that bugs me is how they're going to do this "free content". If it's tied into your PSN+ subscription like the free PSN+ software is, the stuff is useless once your free month is over so it's not much of a "gift". Hopefully, they just price whatever it is as $0.00 normally so whatever you download you get to keep regardless of what you do with your PSN+ subscription.
I'm also curious if this whole planned physical movement of the network is going to result in faster download times, since that was a major complaint about the network for years. It took hours to download multi-GB files before the network went down, and I'm on high-speed internet.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on May 01, 2011, 07:05:46 PM
I also wonder how it affects me, who has a PSN account, but never had a console.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 01, 2011, 07:18:17 PM
I also wonder how it affects me, who has a PSN account, but never had a console.
How'd that happen? Did you just create an account on the website or something? I would assume given that these gifts are account-based that you would have the same benefits as the rest of us once your account was associated with a console (or PSP, though I've never seen a free PSP game on PSN+ and don't remember any discounts, either).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on May 01, 2011, 08:43:16 PM
Yeah. I think it had something to do with me being signed up for Playstation Underground in the past.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 01:25:49 AM
Whatever the free game or whatever ends up being, its going to really suck for those who already own it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: King of Twitch on May 02, 2011, 02:39:05 AM
That's a good attitude to have, Mr Pessimismpants.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 09:58:15 AM
SOE's servers have been shut down now because...TADA! SOE got hacked too! Way to go, SONY!
There's more important stuff going on right now though.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 02, 2011, 11:15:33 AM
Whoever it is isn't gonna give Sony a break.
Sony better hope they shut down PSN fast enough to block any attempts to steal any sensitive information and they better also add some more armed security around their servers in Japan. Maybe Nintendo will loan them a few Ninjas for hire if they ask nicely.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 12:24:25 PM
So it isn't even back up yet and already its been hacked again? What the hell?!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on May 02, 2011, 12:41:12 PM
That's Sony Online Entertainment - the folks what brought you EverQuest - not the PSN itself.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 12:48:49 PM
But it's the service used for DC Universe Online (PC and PS3 versions), and many other games from other companies. SONY fucking sucks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 01:02:22 PM
Wow. So first the PS3 was hacked and then PSN was hacked and now this. It kinda makes you wonder whats going to be next.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 01:25:54 PM
Technically the PS3 being hacked probably didn't have too much to do with the others, since a PS3 was not involved in the hack (according to SONY), though it did show many red flags about PSN in general since you could see that all of your information was sent back and forth, unencrypted. SONY has known this for years, and it's been public knowledge for months, yet, they did absolutely nothing until someone took advantage of the lack of security. Douchebags.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 04:09:59 PM
I didn't mean to imply the hacking of the PS3 had anything to do with these other two events. I was just pointing out how this incompetence over at Sony seems to be systemic because it seems to be the case with every product and service they have. Oh, and the PSP had also been hacked, but that's very old news.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 05:39:33 PM
Word. Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth (though it may seem that way, and I apologize), just further explaining for people that don't want to read 26 pages of epic fail.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 05:45:41 PM
Hey, look! SONY fired 205 employees right before PSN got hacked (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/psn-hack-inside-job-85869/)...employees who worked on SONY's online infrastructure...who were fired...exactly 2 weeks before SONY shut down PSN...which was their last day on the job...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 06:28:00 PM
It comes as no surprise to me that Sony treats its employees like just a number. They treat the consumers that way, so it makes sense the employees get treated like crap as well. Maybe one or a few disgruntled employees is responsible for this attack? They would certainly have both the means and the motive to do it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Oh, even more good news - Sony loses another 12,700 credit card numbers, 24.6 million accounts (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/sony-loses-another-12-700-credit-card-account-numbers-24-6-million-more-accounts-compromised-85881/). That's over 100 million accounts. WAY TO GO!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 02, 2011, 07:30:38 PM
Oh, even more good news - Sony loses another 12,700 credit card numbers, 24.6 million accounts (http://psx-scene.com/forums/f6/sony-loses-another-12-700-credit-card-account-numbers-24-6-million-more-accounts-compromised-85881/). That's over 100 million accounts. WAY TO GO!
From what I've been reading on Joystiq and whatnot, Sony is connecting this attack to the one on PSN, saying it happened in the same time window. And most of the credit card data is circa 2007 or so, so the cards are likely to be expired by now. To be honest, I don't really give a damn about this hack since I never played anything ran by SoE (though I did come close to checking out DC Universe Online, so I guess I dodged a bullet there). It does, however, just continue to endear me to the oh-so-lovable hacker community. :@
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 07:37:18 PM
It does, however, just continue to endear me to the oh-so-lovable hacker community. :@
So one or a few hackers do this and you blame the entire hacking community? I believe people should be judged as individuals and not as groups. GeoHot recently weighed in on the PSN hacking and he condemned it and he said it makes hackers look bad. I believe he is one of the good ones. But apparently to you they're all bad no matter what.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 02, 2011, 07:56:00 PM
It does, however, just continue to endear me to the oh-so-lovable hacker community. :@
So one or a few hackers do this and you blame the entire hacking community? I believe people should be judged as individuals and not as groups. GeoHot recently weighed in on the PSN hacking and he condemned it and he said it makes hackers look bad. I believe he is one of the good ones. But apparently to you they're all bad no matter what.
Did I say they were all bad? I said quite simply (sarcastically) that crap like this doesn't endear me to hackers in general, which it doesn't (and, mind you, I have stated before that I don't like hackers in general). If these guys aren't simply thieves but have some kind of agenda as well, they don't help it with these actions. All they're doing is hurting innocent customers. And regardless, they make the non-malevolent hackers look horrible.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 02, 2011, 07:59:39 PM
Well, after what Brandogg posted about the employees being fired it casts some doubt on this being the work of hackers. Perhaps it was the result of disgruntled fired employees?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 02, 2011, 08:04:57 PM
Well, after what Brandogg posted about the employees being fired it casts some doubt on this being the work of hackers. Perhaps it was the result of disgruntled fired employees?
The problem with that theory is that if that were the case, the police would easily have motive and likely evidence of employee involvement (especially if these employees had access to the Sony networks from an external location like their homes). The culprits would probably already be in jail. I suppose it's possible that disgruntled employees could have leaked information that aided hackers in penetrating Sony's security, but once again we'd probably have heard something about that by now. The internet doesn't tend to forget just about anything, so there would probably be a trail of some sort to follow from the employees.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 02, 2011, 08:46:38 PM
Whoever did the actual hack (or just walked in and downloaded data directly from the servers) - it is the result of bullshit security.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: gregmde7 on May 02, 2011, 11:40:01 PM
I'm not sure, but I will tell you one thing - it has been way too long that the PSN has been down now. I mean come on, it's been over 2 weeks now. With a company as large as Playstation is I just don't get how it can take you 2 weeks to get this issue fixed. Of course it is a really big issue as credit card information and other personal information is on the line - but can't you reopen the network while doing your other work?
it's getting very frustrating!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 02, 2011, 11:44:54 PM
I'm not sure, but I will tell you one thing - it has been way too long that the PSN has been down now. I mean come on, it's been over 2 weeks now. With a company as large as Playstation is I just don't get how it can take you 2 weeks to get this issue fixed. Of course it is a really big issue as credit card information and other personal information is on the line - but can't you reopen the network while doing your other work?
it's getting very frustrating!
Given that the heart of this very issue was the theft of account information, there's no way that Sony could restore access to the PSN while still working on PSN's infrastructure. I'm more frustrated that after all this time of the PSN being down, when it does return the basic functionality is all we're going to get. That pretty much means online play and trophies. We won't be seeing the PSN Store for a while longer, which means that PS+; your download history; and anything Sony's giving us as part of their "make good" package won't be available till the Store's back up.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 03, 2011, 12:14:33 AM
If you've jailbroken your console (and now I see absolutely no reason you shouldn't), there are other networks you can access for online play. I've been playing Fifa online this past week.
And while I hope Sony doesn't go bankrupt over this (simply because I like competition), I really think they should be harshly punished and made publicly accountable by a US court system. And I hope they learn a lesson through all of this - Don't piss off hackers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 03, 2011, 12:25:45 AM
And I hope they learn a lesson through all of this - Don't piss off hackers.
From my point of view, if stuff like this PSN "Outage" (as the media likes to call it) and Anonymous' actions are what the hackers do when a company has the audacity to try to protect their intellectual property, the hackers are out of control and need to be brought down. Whoever broke into Sony's networks and stole all that information (not to mention those who create custom firmware for the specific purpose of pirating data, which is likely the only reason Sony even cares about the PS3 hack) did the hackers' case no favors, even if it was the actions of a few reflecting badly on an otherwise quiet majority.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 03, 2011, 12:43:57 AM
The way I see it is it all snowballed from Sony deciding to drop Linux. That enraged the hacker community. The "Virtuous" Hackers found the PS3's security laughable, by-passing it with ease in order to restore their beloved feature. "Evil" hackers caught wind of Sony's deplorable security and probably thought the same was true about PSN. And guess what? They were right.
Or it could be the virtuous trying to teach Sony a lesson and were never going to use or sell the information they found. Either way, a lesson is being taught.
And you say that hackers are "out of control and need to be brought down". Hackers are just people - people with the intelligence to not be forced into consumer troughs and infrastructures.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 03, 2011, 08:14:07 AM
Sony never should have took the Linux feature away. Though they should of had a better system in place for PSN.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 03, 2011, 11:50:34 AM
And I hope they learn a lesson through all of this - Don't piss off hackers.
From my point of view, if stuff like this PSN "Outage" (as the media likes to call it) and Anonymous' actions are what the hackers do when a company has the audacity to try to protect their intellectual property, the hackers are out of control and need to be brought down. Whoever broke into Sony's networks and stole all that information (not to mention those who create custom firmware for the specific purpose of pirating data, which is likely the only reason Sony even cares about the PS3 hack) did the hackers' case no favors, even if it was the actions of a few reflecting badly on an otherwise quiet majority.
From my point of view, if stuff like "taking other OS away" is what Sony does when threatened by the prospect of competition, then they as a company are out of control and need to be brought down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 03, 2011, 02:06:16 PM
Freedom>Sony
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 03, 2011, 02:12:27 PM
Browsing a few of my usual sites, I ran across this interesting (and surprisingly candid) interview on Playstation Lifestyle with AVG (an internet security firm) Chief Research Officer Roger Thompson, regarding the PSN hack and internet security in general. Check out Part 1 (http://playstationlifestyle.net/2011/04/29/a-cautious-new-world-avg%E2%80%99s-chief-research-officer-talks-sony-how-to-stay-safe-and-the-inevitability-of-more-attacks/) and Part 2 (http://playstationlifestyle.net/2011/04/29/the-broken-system-avg%E2%80%99s-chief-research-officer-on-cloud-paying-hackers-and-the-biggest-threats-of-the-next-five-years/).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 03, 2011, 07:40:24 PM
Quote
Q: Looking back at the cloud and integrated systems – do you think Sony’s breach will slow people’s uptake of the cloud and damage the industry as a whole, or will people quickly forget?
A: I live in a country where every time there’s a thunderstorm the weather channel reminds people not to drive into water of an unknown depth so I suspect that people will forget pretty quickly.
;D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 04, 2011, 02:53:10 AM
Well, May 3rd's come and gone, so Sony's missed the date they gave us last week for bringing the PSN back online. I wonder if we'll even see the damn thing restored this week, or if we'll enter our 3rd week of no PS3 online functionality. *sigh*
On the upside, I did take advantage of a GS sale and picked up Majin & the Forsaken Kingdom + 3 other games for $6 and store credit. Majin's an excellent game (and extremely overlooked) and I highly recommend it if you're looking for something to tide you over till The Last Guardian/Zelda: Skyward Sword.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 04, 2011, 08:19:31 AM
Sony doesn't have the heart to tell you, so I will.
PSN is never coming back on. I'm sorry.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 04, 2011, 10:52:18 AM
On a related note, I noticed a few days ago that Amazon had a deal for a $50 credit with the purchase of certain Xbox 360s. You may have to pay for online, but at least it works. So I'm considering that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 04, 2011, 11:03:01 AM
On a related note, I noticed a few days ago that Amazon had a deal for a $50 credit with the purchase of certain Xbox 360s. You may have to pay for online, but at least it works. So I'm considering that.
Xbox360 - $50 credit & 1600 MS points - $199
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 04, 2011, 11:04:49 AM
If it still requires you to run an ethernet cord to it, then it's no deal.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 04, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
If it still requires you to run an ethernet cord to it, then it's no deal.
According to Amazon:
Quote
Product Features
Sleek New Design 4GB internal memory Built-in Wi-Fi Whisper Quiet
It sucks that it lacks a hard drive, though. You can always add one in yourself, but only expensive MS approved HDDs will work. It might make more sense to buy the $299 model which already includes a hard drive and probably some other perks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 04, 2011, 01:10:45 PM
Sony has posted a response (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/04/sonys-response-to-the-u-s-house-of-representatives/) on the Playstation Blog to the U.S. House of Representatives' inquiry into the PSN attacks.
I find this passage from the response interesting:
Quote
We discovered that the intruders had planted a file on one of our Sony Online Entertainment servers named “Anonymous” with the words “We are Legion.”
So it looks like Anonymous, or at least someone who was a member of Anonymous acting alone, was quite possibly behind this attack after all.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 04, 2011, 01:22:43 PM
So it looks like Anonymous, or at least someone who was a member of Anonymous acting alone, was quite possibly behind this attack after all.
Or quite possibly that was what whoever planted that wants you to think. Framings are as old as crime itself.
ETA: I find this reassuring:
Quote
As of today, the major credit card companies have not reported any fraudulent transactions that they believe are the direct result of this cyber attack.
So to this day there is still no proof credit card information had been stolen or that this was even the objective of those who hacked PSN. This supports my earlier belief that the attack was simply targeted at Sony as revenge for the removal of Other OS and the suing of GeoHot. I didn't want to believe innocent consumers were the intended victim, and apparently there is still no proof that they were.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 04, 2011, 01:33:13 PM
So it looks like Anonymous, or at least someone who was a member of Anonymous acting alone, was quite possibly behind this attack after all.
Or quite possibly that was what whoever planted that wants you to think. Framings are as old as crime itself.
The problem is that Anonymous has been quite active in attacking Sony recently, from the DDoS attacks to the futile protests in Sony stores. I remember when they stopped their DDoS attacks on PSN, they said that "big surprises" were to come in their battle with Sony. Combined with this reveal, that's pretty incriminating. Sure, I considered the possibility of someone framing Anonymous, but right now this warrants deeper investigation into the group.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 04, 2011, 03:01:27 PM
Assuming it was Anonymous, wouldn't that file which implicates them go against their previous public claim that they "didn't do it"? I'm not saying that they couldn't have done it, but I am saying that if they did do it I don't think they would want Sony and the FBI to believe they did for the simple reason that no one wants to go to jail.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 04, 2011, 03:31:43 PM
Funny thing about Anonymous. It could have been them and could have not been them at the same time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 04, 2011, 03:40:21 PM
Honestly claiming they did it would make them a Terrorist organization.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 04, 2011, 03:46:00 PM
Honestly claiming they did it would make them a Terrorist organization.
Who can claim that Anonymous did it though? Can't pretty much anyone go in and edit their front page? You, I, SUPER or Kevin Butler could go in and change their front page to say "Yeah, we hacked SONY. Suck it, Coppers!" It doesn't mean anyone (or everyone) associated with Anonymous actually did any hacking.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 04, 2011, 03:59:49 PM
Honestly claiming they did it would make them a Terrorist organization.
Who can claim that Anonymous did it though? Can't pretty much anyone go in and edit their front page? You, I, SUPER or Kevin Butler could go in and change their front page to say "Yeah, we hacked SONY. Suck it, Coppers!" It doesn't mean anyone (or everyone) associated with Anonymous actually did any hacking.
Yes, that is true. It be up to Anonymous to refute it and any news organization worth a snot would get on Anonymous representative and directly ask for confirmation. That's why they where quick to say, "Hey it wasn't us." You don't want to be possibly viewed in that light in this time. This whole thing is making the regular news.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 04, 2011, 05:35:01 PM
Annymous my ass. Quick and easy scapegoat is more like it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 04, 2011, 05:47:24 PM
Annymous my ass. Quick and easy scapegoat is more like it.
If it is so, Anonymous has no one but themselves to blame for that. You can't issue theatrical threats against Sony, shut down their servers, and stage sit-ins in their stores without expecting to be an easy target for blame and frame.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 04, 2011, 08:26:34 PM
Yes, that is true. It be up to Anonymous to refute it and any news organization worth a snot would get on Anonymous representative and directly ask for confirmation. That's why they where quick to say, "Hey it wasn't us." You don't want to be possibly viewed in that light in this time. This whole thing is making the regular news.
That's the problem, though - there is no "Anonymous Representative" to talk to.
Think of it this way - you have two teams, the Bears and the Cubs. They're both sports teams (i.e.: Anonymous). One team might be doing one thing (playing football) and the other team is off doing another thing (playing baseball). Sometimes, they might work together (i.e.: a charity dinner for a children's charity). Sometimes, they might be on opposite sides (who can sell the most tickets...). Often, they're not even in the same room and have absolutely nothing to do with one another. Now, you have coaches who can speak to the media and represent the team.
Except, with Anonymous, you don't know who the coaches are. And there's no way to verify who is and isn't an Anonymous coach. I could be one. My boss could be one. Your own mother could be one. You don't know and there's (virtually) no way to find out.
And if someone does come forth, claiming to speak for Anonymous, they probably don't.
And even if you did speak to the coach of the Cubs, it doesn't mean he speaks for - or even has the slightest idea - what the Bears are up to. Hell, he likely doesn't even speak for all the players on his own team.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 04, 2011, 09:00:50 PM
Nothing that Organizes has no Structure.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 05, 2011, 12:34:08 AM
It appears to me that putting in a twenty digit Wii points code is far better than having your credit card taken over by some hacker. ;)
I'll take exercising a little personal responsibility and careful observation over having to input my name, address, county, and credit card number every time I want to make a purchase, thanks. Besides, PSN has those cards as well. I just never bought them because of having to deal with sales tax.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 05, 2011, 01:25:46 AM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 05, 2011, 01:32:50 AM
Dr. Spafford? For real? My father knows that guy. Purdue represent.
Quote
According to Spafford, security experts monitoring open Internet forums learned months ago that Sony was using outdated versions of the Apache Web server software, which "was unpatched and had no firewall installed." The issue was "reported in an open forum monitored by Sony employees" two to three months prior to the recent security breaches, said Spafford.
So much for plausible deniability.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 05, 2011, 01:52:26 AM
Notice the date that this thread was created, and notice the date that PSN was shut down. This info has been public knowledge, and clearly SONY knew about it too, but simply didn't give a ****, and rather than fix the situation, they fired 205 employees. I smell the end of the PlayStation nearing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 06:41:39 AM
It appears to me that putting in a twenty digit Wii points code is far better than having your credit card taken over by some hacker. ;)
I'll take exercising a little personal responsibility and careful observation over having to input my name, address, county, and credit card number every time I want to make a purchase, thanks. Besides, PSN has those cards as well. I just never bought them because of having to deal with sales tax.
No tax because its online and no shipping or having to wait for it to arrive because you get the code instantly. You have to use a credit card, but you do that through Amazon and not through Sony and their bullshit security.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 05, 2011, 06:46:40 AM
It appears to me that putting in a twenty digit Wii points code is far better than having your credit card taken over by some hacker. ;)
I'll take exercising a little personal responsibility and careful observation over having to input my name, address, county, and credit card number every time I want to make a purchase, thanks. Besides, PSN has those cards as well. I just never bought them because of having to deal with sales tax.
No tax because its online and no shipping or having to wait for it to arrive because you get the code instantly. You have to use a credit card, but you do that through Amazon and not through Sony and their bullshit security.
You still get Tax for that in Tennessee.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 05, 2011, 06:55:12 AM
Notice the date that this thread was created, and notice the date that PSN was shut down. This info has been public knowledge, and clearly SONY knew about it too, but simply didn't give a ****, and rather than fix the situation, they fired 205 employees.
Excellent point. There was a considerable amount of time between when the vulnerability was reported and when it was actually exploited, and the firing of those employees came at the worst possible time because they were needed to fix it up. Its not at all unlike what happened to Enron a decade ago, where the people in charge of the company only care about the short term and don't give a **** about the long term, and they gamble that nothing bad will happen. Much of this is Ken Kutaragi's fault because he was in charge when all of this was designed and set in motion, but he took his golden parachute and bailed.
Or at least the PS3 anyway. It should still have years more of life in it because of how powerful it is, but its so severely compromised at this point that its a joke and there's little Sony can do about it. I'm betting this may cause Sony to rush out a more "secure" PS4 and prevent the PS3 from having the 10 year life that they claimed it would.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 05, 2011, 09:34:39 AM
The 10 year life span was a pipe dream anyway. The PS3 already looks dated in many regards. You can't throw in a specialty processor and call it all good for a decade. That's not how hardware works.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 05, 2011, 11:18:02 AM
Or at least the PS3 anyway. It should still have years more of life in it because of how powerful it is, but its so severely compromised at this point that its a joke and there's little Sony can do about it. I'm betting this may cause Sony to rush out a more "secure" PS4 and prevent the PS3 from having the 10 year life that they claimed it would.
There were rumors of a PS3.5, this might help make it a reality, but I guess we should see what Nintendo has planned @ E3 before Sony sets anything in motion.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on May 05, 2011, 02:43:23 PM
If the RAM was upgradeable, I bet it could last 10 years.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 02:50:17 PM
Wouldn't a PS3.5 break compatibility with the millions of PS3s already sold? I think that would piss off fans even more. That was what happened to Sega when they launched the 32x and then the Saturn soon after and then pulled the plug on the 32x. Fans who had bought the 32x were reasonably pissed that they bought something that was so prematurely abandoned in favor of another 32bit offering from the same company.
Would the millions of PS3 users be happy to find out their PS3 was junk and that they must now buy a PS3.5? I doubt it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 05, 2011, 02:50:24 PM
It's almost 5 years old, it's completely hacked, it's network is down for the foreseeable future, it's reputation as a brand has been smeared and heavy competition is a year away. I wouldn't be surprised if they launched the PS4 as soon as possible, to simply reset.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 05, 2011, 03:00:49 PM
A PS3.5 and a PS4 are essentially the exact same thing. Might as well do it right and release a successor instead of a half-assed upgrade.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 03:19:19 PM
Sony might do well to ditch the Playstation brand name seeing as how its severely tainted at this point. They are naming their next portable NGP as opposed to PSP2, so they might as well call their next console something other than PS4.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 05, 2011, 03:23:56 PM
I actually think it is more the 'Sony' brand name that has been tarnished. Yes it's the games division that has sullied their name, but in all the articles I've read it's "Sony this" and "Sony that".
No, I think they would have a better chance turning the 'Playstation' name around than abandoning it for something else.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 03:26:14 PM
I actually think it is more the 'Sony' brand name that has been tarnished. Yes it's the games division that has sullied their name, but in all the articles I've read it's "Sony this" and "Sony that".
No, I think they would have a better chance turning the 'Playstation' name around than abandoning it for something else.
I agree. Most gamers probably aren't even aware of the PS3 hacks. The one everyone knows and is getting an increasingly bad name is "Sony Playstation Network". I think even the name "Sony" could probably be turned around due to their products in home video and electronics. The term "Playstation Network", though, has to go in the next generation. That branding is possibly un-salvageable after this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 05, 2011, 03:38:12 PM
Lucky for them, Playstation Network wasn't a great name anyway.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 03:45:08 PM
A long time ago before they entered video games Sony used to be regarded as a quality brand.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 05, 2011, 03:58:21 PM
Or at least the PS3 anyway. It should still have years more of life in it because of how powerful it is, but its so severely compromised at this point that its a joke and there's little Sony can do about it. I'm betting this may cause Sony to rush out a more "secure" PS4 and prevent the PS3 from having the 10 year life that they claimed it would.
There were rumors of a PS3.5, this might help make it a reality, but I guess we should see what Nintendo has planned @ E3 before Sony sets anything in motion.
Of course they will, Sony has to let Nintendo innovate for them before they do anything.
Seriously, I am not sure what this will do to the brand name of Playstation or Sony. People can have very short memories so while it may hurt in the short term, but long term it is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 05, 2011, 04:01:17 PM
I honestly think before this Sony needed to start letting their brands go Sony-less so just Bravia, Playstation, Walkman, etc.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 04:18:47 PM
Lucky for them, Playstation Network wasn't a great name anyway.
True 'nuf that. It was a functional name, but doesn't have the catchiness of something like "XBox Live" even if "PSN" was nice and easy to say. I still like it better than "Wii Shop Channel", though. :P: :
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 04:39:41 PM
Ah the PSP is not so bad. It's been my VC console for years.
Having recently purchased one, I agree. I've found the handful of notable games it has quite entertaining (KH: Birth By Sleep being my favorite so far).
As for whether we "want" Sony to return, I certainly do. I really enjoy their 1st party franchises, and even if I wasn't a fan of the company's products I still think the competition they bring is good for the industry.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 05:14:56 PM
But one good thing that may happen if Sony disappeared is that it would open up the market enough for a new competitor to enter, such as Sega. Sony was largely responsible for Sega's demise, and Sony badly hurt Nintendo as well. They destroyed the golden age of gaming which was Nintendo/Sega.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 05:16:04 PM
But one good thing that may happen if Sony disappeared is that it would open up the market enough for a new competitor to enter, such as Sega. Sony was largely responsible for Sega's demise, and Sony badly hurt Nintendo as well. They destroyed the golden age of gaming which was Nintendo/Sega.
Oh please, Sega's incompetence was largely responsible for Sega's demise, with their frequent release of new consoles and lack of support for existing ones. Sony only hastened the inevitable.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 05, 2011, 05:34:13 PM
The only Sega console that quickly lost support was the Saturn. And that was largely due to developer reluctance (high prices didn't help the market either). Beyond that, there were a few Genesis add-ons that weren't particularly utilized. The Dreamcast is still the best home console ever produced, both from a hardware and software standpoint. The only reason it failed was due to consumers' hard feelings over the prior Saturn and (more so) Sony's outright lies and FUD over what the upcoming PS2 would be capable of.
I'd welcome Sega back with open arms. Of course, the management that existed during the Dreamcast era is long gone (and actually helped to make the Xbox what it is). Sony hasn't really done much for the gaming community other than bring frat boys in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 05, 2011, 05:37:56 PM
Nintendo and Sega destroyed the golden age with their incredibly stupid decisions. The Saturn and N64 were doomed from the start. All Sony really did was be merely competent and thus win by default.
I don't care for Sony much but I do think competition is good for the industry. And there is the expression "better the devil you know". We've seen how the videogame industry works with Sony on top and honestly it was not that bad. If they went under it might open the market up to someone else who we don't know who would like even less.
Plus Sony is a better foe for Microsoft. I don't want Microsoft on top so it is good that there is another big multimedia corporation competing with them. Nintendo is small potatoes in comparison. If it was just Nintendo vs. MS I think it would give MS too big of an advantage and would allow for an easier MS monopoly. They can't out-muscle Sony so easily or out-muscle two competitors at once.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 05, 2011, 06:01:25 PM
Lucky for them, Playstation Network wasn't a great name anyway.
True 'nuf that. It was a functional name, but doesn't have the catchiness of something like "XBox Live" even if "PSN" was nice and easy to say. I still like it better than "Wii Shop Channel", though. :P: :
Has anyone noticed that Nintendo's new eShop could be abbreviated as NeS?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 07:19:19 PM
Oh please, Sega's incompetence was largely responsible for Sega's demise, with their frequent release of new consoles and lack of support for existing ones.
You want to talk about incompetence? How about Sony's incompetence this entire generation so far? Sure, Sega made some mistakes, but they didn't intentionally screw consumers over. They didn't deserve to be driven out of the market. Sony's lies and underhanded tactics brought about their demise. If you do that to an individual person its called murder. They almost did the same thing to Nintendo.
Oh please, Sega's incompetence was largely responsible for Sega's demise, with their frequent release of new consoles and lack of support for existing ones.
You want to talk about incompetence? How about Sony's incompetence this entire generation so far? Sure, Sega made some mistakes, but they didn't intentionally screw consumers over. They didn't deserve to be driven out of the market. Sony's lies and underhanded tactics brought about their demise. If you do that to an individual person its called murder. They almost did the same thing to Nintendo.
Nice try, but we're not talking about Sony on this, but Sega and how you believe that "Sony was LARGELY responsible" (emphasis on "largely") for Sega's demise. I only have to spend 5 seconds looking at the pitiful excuse for marketing that Sega does and the Tower of Power to say definitively that they deserve to be where they are. They are the ones who decided to confuse and flood their audience with expensive peripherals and add-ons that saw little support and had a very short lifespan. Sega killed themselves. Sony was just the then-competent company that stepped in and took their rightful place as Nintendo's main competitor and eventually market leader. And it's not like Sega's gotten any better, as look at their nonexistent marketing whenever they try and push something that's not Sonic.
I don't excuse any of the screw-ups that Sony's done this generation. If they are now permanently in 3rd place or have to leave the console market, they only have themselves to blame. But let's not pretend that Sega of old was this valiant knight on a shining white horse who did nothing wrong and got beaten to death by a 50 ft. ogre. Sega did that to themselves.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 05, 2011, 07:40:28 PM
They are the ones who decided to confuse and flood their audience with expensive peripherals and add-ons that saw little support and had a very short lifespan.
Huh? You mean Nintendo and the Wii? Classic Controller, Classic Controller Pro. WiiSpeak, Wheels, Zappers, etc. I thought we were talking about Sega. They do what Ninten-don't!
The only time Sega was releasing peripherals left and right in such a manner was when they were on top of the world with the Genesis. Even then, some greats things came from their diversions. The CD add-on, for example, had a handful of games that still holdup as greats titles today.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 07:43:26 PM
They are the ones who decided to confuse and flood their audience with expensive peripherals and add-ons that saw little support and had a very short lifespan.
Huh? You mean Nintendo and the Wii? Classic Controller, Classic Controller Pro. WiiSpeak, Wheels, Zappers, etc. I thought we were talking about Sega.
Yeah seriously, don't remind me. That's one of my biggest gripes with Nintendo this generation.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 05, 2011, 07:46:49 PM
Sega's history was a big part of its demise, even though they'd gotten past that with the Dreamcast, because people were still wary from the Sega CDx/32X/Saturn. But the bullshit Sony was spewing about the PS2, most of which isn't even true about the PS3, took a lot away from the early hype for the Dreamcast. Sega fucked themselves, and Sony made sure they couldn't redeem themselves, which is something I'll never forgive them for.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 08:16:43 PM
Back to actual news: Sony just put up a press release (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/05/sony-offering-free-allclear-id-plus-identity-theft-protection-in-the-united-states-through-debix-inc/) on their blog detailing something they should have been offering in that first week PSN went down: complimentary enrollment in an Identity Theft protection program through a company called Debix. This has been needing to happen for a long time now, so it's great to see them finally taking this step. Unfortunately, this program is only available to PSN members in North America.
EDIT:
Update - The PS Blog has been updated with a letter (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/05/a-letter-from-howard-stringer/) from Howard Stringer and a notice (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/05/important-step-for-service-restoration/) that the new Playstation Network has entered "final testing". If you believe Stringer's letter, they expect PSN to go back online within a couple of days. I'd like to believe that, but they've said that several times now so I'll believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 05, 2011, 09:51:50 PM
Hopefully this Stringer guy isn't just Stringing us along.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 05, 2011, 10:06:08 PM
If I weren't about to go to bed, and had access to my computer with Photoshop, I'd make an awesome gif mashup of Howard Stringer and Stringer Bell from The Wire, with some clever text. But I have practicum in the morning, so someone else has to do that. BnM?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 05, 2011, 10:29:31 PM
I think we'll read about Howard Stringer killing himself in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 05, 2011, 10:32:08 PM
I think we'll read about Howard Stringer killing himself in the next few weeks.
Hey now, let's not be morbid. Whatever you may think of Sony as a company, let's not start forecasting/wishing the death of the people in the company (especially if we don't have evidence of Stringer being involved with the former design of PSN).
Title: Report: Hackers plan third attack on Sony
Post by: SupaKirb on May 06, 2011, 01:14:45 AM
Another Hacking Problem For Sony?
image removed by the evil censors*
I know there have already been rumors about this, but here is some information to feed this one.
A report by Cnet (http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20060227-260.html) indicates that hackers are planning out another massive attack to be directed at Sony. The claim was made by a viewer of a chat channel, where hackers were supposedly planning out an attack being executed this weekend. Whether this is just someone trying to draw attention to themselves, or a true report, it wouldn’t be unthinkable at this point.
As of right now, it is uncertain whether or not these suspected hackers are with the group know as, “Anonymous”, who have, “for the record”, stated that they had no involvement in the attacks that brought the PlayStation Network down this past April. (Which is supposed to be back up sometime this week if all goes to plan.) It has also been reported that said hackers, already have access to Sony servers, and have threatened to release the personal information they may find during their raid on Sony.
I guess that’s it for now, all you Sony users be weary. It may just be a scare, but we will have to wait to find out.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 06, 2011, 07:59:54 AM
Yeah, that may have been going too far, still, I won't be entirely surprised if it happens.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 06, 2011, 08:43:03 AM
Honestly, I think Ken Kutaragi is the one most to blame for all this. The PS3 was his "parting gift" to the company. It was the equivalent of someone taking a huge $hit on their desk and then just leaving it for their successor to deal with.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 06, 2011, 09:19:03 AM
Chozo, do you even have a PS3?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 06, 2011, 09:48:14 AM
Yes, I do. Why do you ask?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 06, 2011, 09:55:26 AM
For some reason I thought you were pissed for no reason.
Title: Re: Report: Hackers plan third attack on Sony
Post by: UncleBob on May 06, 2011, 10:38:27 AM
*Please don't steal bandwidth from others. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 06, 2011, 10:50:22 AM
For some reason I thought you were pissed for no reason.
I don't know what to tell you. I guess I seem different than a typical PS3 user in the sense that even though I own one I am not a fan of it nor the company that makes it. I'm just here for the games which unfortunately were unavailable to me when I only owned a Wii. I'm still a Nintendo fan first and foremost, and if Nintendo could get the right level of multiplatform support on the Cafe then I probably would make that my one and only system for that generation. The Wii alone just wasn't cutting it this time around... something else was needed. It was either this or the 360.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 06, 2011, 11:05:39 AM
For some reason I thought you were pissed for no reason.
I don't know what to tell you. I guess I seem different than a typical PS3 user in the sense that even though I own one I am not a fan of it nor the company that makes it. I'm just here for the games which unfortunately were unavailable to me when I only owned a Wii. I'm still a Nintendo fan first and foremost, and if Nintendo could get the right level of multiplatform support on the Cafe then I probably would make that my one and only system for that generation. The Wii alone just wasn't cutting it this time around... something else was needed. It was either this or the 360.
If it was just gaming I say 360 but something your wife will use definitely PS3 because its a great media center.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 06, 2011, 12:09:26 PM
RRoD was my deciding factor between the PS3 and 360. If only I knew...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 06, 2011, 12:36:31 PM
RRoD was my deciding factor between the PS3 and 360. If only I knew...
For me RROD was one of three reasons. The other two were that you have to pay for online with the Xbox (which apparently you get what you pay for, so that may be a good thing), and the fact most of my friends use a PS3 so if I got a 360 I would basically have to build my buddy list from scratch. From what I understand, the latest 360 slim revision nailed the RROD problem, so its not a major concern anymore. I'm sure it still has a failure rate, but now its probably at an acceptable level and probably no worse than a PS3 might experience.
At this point I have about 20 games invested into the PS3, so switching systems now is out of the question. The only thing I might do now is buy an 360 as a supplement rather than a replacement. But I'm on the fence about that. There's a handful of 360 exclusives I'd like to consider, but I'm not sure if there's enough to justify spending another $200 on a console, plus another $50 a year on top of that for online access.
Anyways, after what has happened Sony might consider charging for PSN because that may be the only way they can afford to beef up the security on it like it needs. When a company provides a service for free they have little incentive to make it good.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 06, 2011, 12:46:56 PM
In Japan, its been known that heads of corporations who are disgraced 'fall on their sword' to save face of the company as a whole, yadayada out dated mentality. Luckily for them, Howard is a Brit and not likely to willingly step down for anything other than retirement.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 06, 2011, 01:34:40 PM
I got mine for Hardware BC with the PS2 and 1. Also for a Blu-Ray player. It then became the media center of my house and well I know for a fact that my wife has logged more hours on it then I and its been my most used console ever in time on doing something.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 06, 2011, 09:07:12 PM
I have 4 PS3s. Trying to sell one of them right now though - anyone looking to buy a 40GB (fat) console with a controller, RCA, power supply, and HDMI cable too...$200, it's yours, shipped. I'll swap out the 40GB for a 250GB if you want. Back to PSN though...PSN sucks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 07, 2011, 12:23:23 AM
Sony just pushed the return of PSN back again. (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/06/psn-reactivation-delayed-for-further-testing-not-coming-back/)
I hadn't played a game on my PS3 for months (I use it for media streaming and Netflix all the time, but those work without PSN), and PSN has to be down the one time I need it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 07, 2011, 12:29:37 AM
Sony just pushed the return of PSN back again. (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/06/psn-reactivation-delayed-for-further-testing-not-coming-back/)
I hadn't played a game on my PS3 for months (I use it for media streaming and Netflix all the time, but those work without PSN), and PSN has to be down the one time I need it.
As long as it's taking SONY to get the network back up, it makes me wonder how badly outdated their security was...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 07, 2011, 07:05:53 AM
Sony just pushed the return of PSN back again. (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/06/psn-reactivation-delayed-for-further-testing-not-coming-back/)
I hadn't played a game on my PS3 for months (I use it for media streaming and Netflix all the time, but those work without PSN), and PSN has to be down the one time I need it.
As long as it's taking SONY to get the network back up, it makes me wonder how badly outdated their security was...
I'm sure part of the delay is due to them having to find and hire or re-hire the necessary employees. Sony fired 205 of the sort of employees who would normally be handling this ****, so now they have to hire them back or find equivalents.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 07, 2011, 09:01:52 AM
Sony just pushed the return of PSN back again. (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/06/psn-reactivation-delayed-for-further-testing-not-coming-back/)
I hadn't played a game on my PS3 for months (I use it for media streaming and Netflix all the time, but those work without PSN), and PSN has to be down the one time I need it.
(http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 07, 2011, 09:08:28 AM
The longer PSN stays down the more people will get pissed and sell their PS3s and buy a 360.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 07, 2011, 09:46:33 AM
I would hate to be someone who just bought a PS3 in the last couple of weeks. Especially if you didn't read the blogs. The maintenance message doesn't give any clue at all.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 07, 2011, 12:21:41 PM
I think you're all giving Anonymous far too much credit. This is a group of 4chan retards that get together and try to ping servers to death. They're not hackers, they're not crackers, they're not terrorists. They're a bunch of fourteen year-old script kiddies. They'll jump at anything "for the lulz" and then quickly grow disinterested and leave.
tee-hee. :D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 07, 2011, 08:59:20 PM
Geezus, this is getting ridiculous. It's not like I play online games or anything (often) but I want my online back, for Cthulhu's sake. I just bought Dante's Inferno for super-cheap (special edition, nop less) and I want to download my exclusive goddamn content.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 07, 2011, 09:01:36 PM
I laugh every time I see the Socom 4 commercial where they talk about playing online.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on May 07, 2011, 09:06:22 PM
Geezus, this is getting ridiculous. It's not like I play online games or anything (often) but I want my online back, for Cthulhu's sake. I just bought Dante's Inferno for super-cheap (special edition, nop less) and I want to download my exclusive goddamn content.
Word, except for the Dante's Inferno. Between Quebec and the PSN hack, we're coming up on 3 weeks that I haven't been able to play the FF4 Collection.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 07, 2011, 11:48:42 PM
It had to happen when I just got Portal 2 and I could possibly get people to co-op with me. Also RFN has a couple games I like to play.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 08, 2011, 10:06:35 AM
Maybe now everyone will take a long, hard look at buying into closed systems. Doesn't it suck being at the mercy of some uncaring corporation's servers? :P
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on May 09, 2011, 07:23:02 AM
Now people are expecting the end of may? MAY?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 09, 2011, 07:29:46 AM
I wonder if all of this nonsense will cause SONY to have to unban everyone from PSN that's been banned. I could care less, but it would be a nice gesture. Some innocent people have been wrongfully banned (not just the 77 million who were banned last month).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on May 09, 2011, 08:27:20 AM
I wonder if all of this nonsense will cause SONY to have to unban everyone from PSN that's been banned. I could care less, but it would be a nice gesture. Some innocent people have been wrongfully banned (not just the 77 million who were banned last month).
LOL imagine the uproar:
UNBAN ME BITCH!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on May 09, 2011, 09:45:21 AM
I was surprised they announced that they were "Done testing" last week given not only do they have to rebuild the security and literally rebuild the whole server by shifting locations they would have anything inside the first half of this month even with a Manhattan style crash build.
Given how long they took to cobble the original network together, I don't expect it to be finished inside this month unless they want something as shoddy as the old. Not that the CC companies would let them run something like that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 09, 2011, 09:47:00 AM
There may be 77 million PSN accounts, but there's no way there are 77 million users. Many people have multiple accounts. I only have one, but my neighbor has like a dozen accounts. You also have to consider many accounts were created and just abandoned for whatever reason (such as people selling their PS3 in frustration and buying an xbox360). So the total number of users may be like 50 million or less.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 09, 2011, 10:37:56 AM
Which is not much less of a completely ridiculous number of accounts to get stolen.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 10:51:58 AM
That would be pretty unacceptable. We have L.A. Noire coming next week, and I was really looking forward to playing through the storyline and any DLC quests. I wish Sony would stop being so vague and just give us a solid date, one way or another.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 09, 2011, 11:39:49 AM
I don't think they can give us a solid date simply because they don't know it themselves. It's like building a house. There's going to be delays no matter how well you plan. And in this case, planning isn't the priority.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 09, 2011, 11:48:28 AM
They say FULL functionality by the end of May. Some online features could be active before then. I do hope online play is one of them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 01:02:23 PM
They say FULL functionality by the end of May. Some online features could be active before then. I do hope online play is one of them.
Yeah, I know. Supposedly, online play/trophies/etc. will be restored before then. The problem is, we have a major DLC game coming out next week (not to mention the now-massive backlog of PSN games and DLC that haven't been released now), and the 360's going to have defacto exclusivity for it till the PSN Store goes online, so that's a major component of L.A. Noire you just can't access for weeks after the game releases. I actually wonder how much this mess will hurt the sales of the PS3 version of Noire, considering Sony seemingly paid the devs to release an exclusive case on PS3 that you won't be able to download till the Shop is back online. Come to think of it, Brink releases tomorrow, and as a major online game I can't see that selling well on PS3 either (no big loss for me since it doesn't appeal to me, but that definitely hurts Sony).
The thing is, I don't mind the waiting all that much. I do have plenty of stuff to play in the meantime like Killzone 2, Resistance 2, Vanquish, Ar Tonelico 3, etc. My PSP's been pretty neglected for a good month now as well. I'm just getting tired of Sony jerking us all around by constantly releasing these vague and indeterminate restoration estimates, and then never following through on them. If it's going to take till the end of May for PSN to go back online, fine. Sony just needs to tell us that instead of this whole "we're looking to have it up within a week" or "well, we're looking to have FULL restoration done by the end of May, but some services may or may not be up by then" business. It just lends credence to all the complaints that Sony has nothing but contempt for their player base.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 09, 2011, 01:09:15 PM
Hmm, I think they said full functionality a couple days after they shut it down. Then they said a week, then another week, then it would be this week, now it's the end of the month. More like end of the road. The best part in all of this - SOE is STILL CHARGING people's accounts while it's down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 09, 2011, 01:19:43 PM
That would be pretty unacceptable. We have L.A. Noire coming next week, and I was really looking forward to playing through the storyline and any DLC quests. I wish Sony would stop being so vague and just give us a solid date, one way or another.
They are doing this deliberately. If they said how long it is REALLY going to take people would be more pissed and more people would leave. By stringing people along and saying "just a little longer" and being very vague about it that gives people some hope that it could be back up soon. Of course, that's false hope, but its still hope nonetheless, and Sony is hoping that will keep them hanging on that whole time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 01:21:48 PM
Hmm, I think they said full functionality a couple days after they shut it down. Then they said a week, then another week, then it would be this week, now it's the end of the month. More like end of the road. The best part in all of this - SOE is STILL CHARGING people's accounts while it's down.
Exactly. Plus, I don't believe Sony has said anything about reimbursing Playstation Plus subscribers for the time the system has been down. Sure, they're giving everyone 30 free days of the service (and it is now readily apparently why it was a full month), but I haven't read anything about Sony adding on additional days to my account for the days my paid service has been down in addition to the 30 free days everyone gets.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 09, 2011, 01:26:02 PM
They say FULL functionality by the end of May. Some online features could be active before then. I do hope online play is one of them.
I would be satisfied with the Chat and Sync trophies functionality for the moment. I understand the most complicated and sensitive feature is the PSN store and the ability to do transactions and all that. That's the real concern, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the one thing that's holding everything else up.
But like I said I do think they are giving false and vague forecasts deliberately in order to reassure customers by feeding them bullshit. They probably knew since day one this was going to take a month or more to fix, but they lied and said "just a few more days" then that turned into "sometime next week" and now we're hearing "the end of May". It may even take longer than that. Rebuilding a new online infrastructure from scratch takes time, especially when you fired all your employees and have to hire new ones.
You can't tell the public its going to be down for 2 months (let's assume that's how long it will take). Even though that's the truth, the customers can't handle that truth. So what do you do? You string them along. Tell them it will be up soon and give vague estimates, and then when that time comes and its still not up you say "just a little longer" and so on. This way you keep them hanging on (or so they hope).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 09, 2011, 03:19:31 PM
SONY will only get this **** up and running when they can immediately start making money off of it. They're not going to turn any of the free aspects back on until the money starts coming back in. Make the switch to Xbox Live. Longest it's ever been down is what, a couple of hours?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 09, 2011, 03:40:46 PM
I wish I knew who smited me and why. I'm just telling it like it is... guess some people can't handle that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 04:03:54 PM
SONY will only get this **** up and running when they can immediately start making money off of it. They're not going to turn any of the free aspects back on until the money starts coming back in. Make the switch to Xbox Live. Longest it's ever been down is what, a couple of hours?
No thanks. I'd rather not spend $50$60 a year for online gaming, a feature I never use and should come with your purchase of a given game (you are, after all, paying for more than half a game). Xbox Live is highly regarded as the best service for online gaming, but I don't game online so I really don't care. When it worked, PSN served me well for the few times I ever used it for online gaming. I more miss the shop and being able to sync my trophies.
Quote
I wish I knew who smited me and why. I'm just telling it like it is... guess some people can't handle that.
Beats me. I haven't smited or applauded anyone in ages, and you didn't say anything I find particularly offensive so I don't know why someone would smite you.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 04:14:28 PM
I saw this posted on Joystiq: Apparently (http://bitmob.com/articles/detective-work-reveals-psn-servers-up-to-date), at least one of Sony's PSN servers were using up-to-date Apache software. Huh. Note, however, that in reading the comments apparently this investigation was only run on one of the 8 PSN servers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 09, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
Xbox Live is highly regarded as the best service for online console gaming
fixed that for you
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 09, 2011, 07:50:20 PM
I've never paid more than $35 for 13 months of Xbox Live, and to me, $3 a month to use an online system that never goes down, and never gives away every single user's personal information...is pretty reasonable. Just get a 13 month card when they go on sale, or get one from eBay or sites like buy.com that constantly have huge price cuts on them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 09, 2011, 07:57:08 PM
I've never paid more than $35 for 13 months of Xbox Live, and to me, $3 a month to use an online system that never goes down, and never gives away every single user's personal information...is pretty reasonable. Just get a 13 month card when they go on sale, or get one from eBay or sites like buy.com that constantly have huge price cuts on them.
Too bad the 360 doesn't have games I want. That's a deal breaker to me. Since the PSN outage hasn't affected me or my wallet, I couldn't care less. I'm happy with Goldeneye Wii til it comes back up. Or hell, maybe I could actually get my homework done for once.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 09, 2011, 08:00:30 PM
I want my baseball rosters, goddammit! The Indians are ranked 28th out of 30 (as opposed to 1st, as they currently are in real life) and missing key players in the disc rosters.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 09, 2011, 08:05:49 PM
I've never paid more than $35 for 13 months of Xbox Live, and to me, $3 a month to use an online system that never goes down, and never gives away every single user's personal information...is pretty reasonable. Just get a 13 month card when they go on sale, or get one from eBay or sites like buy.com that constantly have huge price cuts on them.
The thing is, we're back to the problem that there's nothing on the 360 I want to play online, even if I did want to play online. I got my 360 to play a handful of games like Alan Wake, Tales of Vesperia, the Mass Effect series, and various XBLA games. I'm satisfied with that, so I'm not paying even $35 a year for a feature I'm not going to use.
On a side note, we're starting to see rumors of an Alan Wake 2, despite how poorly the first game sold. Yay! ;D
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on May 09, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
Xbox Live is highly regarded as the best service for online console gaming
fixed that for you
As much as I will extol the personal computer as a gaming platform, the decentralized and autistic of its online multiplayer can be problematic. There are ways to solve it (Steam, Raptr, Xfire, Comrade, Ventrillo, Skype, etc), but it's difficult to interact with other players with the same ease and comprehensiveness Xbox Live offers. I concede that there's a high chance a person wouldn't want to interact with so many other players, but the ability to would be welcome. It's unfortunate that all the social options in PC gaming don't share some basic universal protocols for chat, notifications, and other things.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 09, 2011, 08:54:45 PM
It's unfortunate that all the social options in PC gaming don't share some basic universal platform for chat, notifications, and other things.
Other than Steam?
Not universal. I won't be able to know if friended players on clients for Games for Windows Live, Electronic Arts Download Manager, Gamespy, or other services go online, let alone know if they are playing a game or join their game in progress. Those players will have to spend the extra effort to have Steam, add the game as a non-Steam game, and use Steam to launch the game. Social applications like Raptr aren't connected to these game services as much as it could be, and they are another thing to download and install. Ideally, all these services would be able to talk to each other so you would only need one. However, that doesn't make much business sense for the companies that own the services.
This isn't a big problem and their are workarounds. I just imagine it would be nice if PC gamers didn't have to workaround these issues and have things just work. Then again, it wouldn't be PC gaming if the user didn't have to spend some time setting everything up to work perfectly.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 10, 2011, 02:19:14 AM
No system is universal, because like you said they can't all talk to each other.
And you could say the same thing about console gamers, unless you want to divide them up by what system they game on. Console gamers are still separated by platform even if they are playing the exact same game, so it's the exact same thing. The workaround is buying a closed system with a unified online structure that can only play with other people on that same unified system.
Steam is the unified system to beat from what I hear. I hear that Xbox Live is good(never used it), best you can get on a console so far, but Steam supposedly does everything it needs to & it's free.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on May 10, 2011, 05:07:45 AM
Mm, quite true.
Cross-platform play would be ideal also. It also doesn't make much business sense for the companies involved. There were some efforts at cross-platform play (Shadowrun for the 360 and PC comes to mind).
Steam is a great digital store and social network. It doesn't offer/own a online multiplayer, but that's because most PC games use dedicated or matchmaking servers provided by other parties.
Back to the topic at hand, PSN made it on the 10 o'clock news in my area again. It was an update on how after 3 weeks the network is still down.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on May 10, 2011, 05:19:58 AM
The media sure know how to beat a dead horse into fertilizer and then spreading the love.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 10, 2011, 12:12:46 PM
SONY will only get this **** up and running when they can immediately start making money off of it. They're not going to turn any of the free aspects back on until the money starts coming back in. Make the switch to Xbox Live. Longest it's ever been down is what, a couple of hours?
I understand what you're saying, but if you think about it even the simple free things like chat and trophies would be beneficial to Sony in the long run if they could get those up and running immediately. They don't make money off these things, but if these things can keep customers satisfied and better able to tolerate the rest of the service being down then it would be in Sony's best interest to bring them back ASAP.
There's no denying that customers jumping ship and going over to the 360 (and the Wii to a much lesser extent) is going to be a major problem, and is in fact already a major problem. I don't have any figures of how many people are actually leaving the PS3 because of this, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence this is going on if you read the comments people are posting in blogs and forums it is happening...
So yeah, bringing up the little things that don't actually make money for Sony would be a positive move and would be a better thing in the long run than just keeping everything offline and waiting until everything is ready. It would be tangible proof that progress has and is being made toward restoring everything.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 11, 2011, 08:46:39 AM
Finally there's a website dedicated to keeping us informed as to when PSN will be back up and running... Is the PlayStation Network back up? (http://www.istheplaystationnetworkbackup.info/) Just hit refresh every second or so.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 11, 2011, 10:04:27 AM
Sony announces new console as current fix! (http://www.theonion.com/video/sony-releases-new-stupid-piece-of-****-that-doesnt,14309/)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 11, 2011, 10:15:18 AM
Finally there's a website dedicated to keeping us informed as to when PSN will be back up and running... Is the PlayStation Network back up? (http://www.istheplaystationnetworkbackup.info/) Just hit refresh every second or so.
That's funny. But will that actually change to "YES" when PSN is up for real?
Speaking of funny, someone sent me this video of Hitler's reaction to all this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FKkWo8KrKc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FKkWo8KrKc)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 11, 2011, 01:35:26 PM
Hitler overreacts to everything.
On that note, I'd suggest everyone actually watch go "The Downfall" (Der Untergang). It's a great film. It's too bad those memes haven't brought more useful attention to it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on May 11, 2011, 01:49:48 PM
I've been using ispsnstilldown.com as a similar site for the last few days weeks.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 13, 2011, 11:26:23 AM
Reports are starting to leak out (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/110008-PSN-Apparently-Back-Online-But-Only-For-Developers) from various anonymous sources allegedly working for 3rd party developers that the PSN has now been restored for developer use. It's reportedly a bit shaky and not all the functions are back yet, but they are now able to test online play. That's something, anyway. Hopefully, this will mean the consumer version will return soon.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 13, 2011, 07:24:57 PM
Reports also show things that SONY will be adding, such as security measures that should have been in place 8 years ago or so, also, someone will be hired to look over the network. Nice start, SONY, welcome to the internet.
Title: Sony yet to fully secure its networks: expert
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 14, 2011, 02:26:05 PM
BOSTON (Reuters) – Sony Corp's computer networks remain vulnerable to attack three weeks after the company learned that it had been victim of one of the biggest data breaches in history, according to an Internet security expert. The expert found a handful of security flaws in Sony's networks while remotely studying its systems via the Internet to see how difficult it would be to penetrate the electronics giant's systems in the wake of the attacks. Security researcher John Bumgarner discovered a potential bonanza for hackers by using little more than a web browser, Google's search engine and a basic understanding of Internet security systems.
Uh oh!
Wouldn't it be something if a few days or weeks after PSN comes back online hackers hit it again and the same thing happens all over again?
Title: Re: Sony yet to fully secure its networks: expert
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 02:41:08 PM
Wouldn't it be something if a few days or weeks after PSN comes back online hackers hit it again and the same thing happens all over again?
I'm sure these hackers are big enough douches to try it again at least once the network...finally...goes back up, so I plan on being cautious for those first few Store weeks and relying on pre-paid cards or something until it looks like we're as much in the clear as is possible in this day and age. If Sony were to suffer another attack and massive information leak on PSN, though, it would probably destroy the Playstation brand permanently and possibly eventually shut down Sony's gaming division altogether. I think they can weather this nonsense once and eventually recover, but not twice after the network's been down this long.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 03:31:45 PM
GameTrailers has posted an interesting new 20-minute episode (http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-215-pach-attack/713901) of Pac-Attack with Michael Pacter exclusively covering the PSN outage. It's interesting seeing a financial analyst's take on the whole thing, though he makes some factual errors here and there (for instance, Sony informed us of the information leak a week after the network went down, not two weeks). He also seems to have filmed this video on the assumption that the PSN would be back up by now, which we know it is not.
In summary, he doesn't think that the network's security was likely much less substantial than is likely on the internet; he doesn't think that the hackers broke into the PSN to steal information and credit cards (on the basis of "if you're going to do that, why hack the PSN and not somewhere where there's actual money to be had"); he doesn't think that this will really affect us financially due to U.S. credit card laws; and he doesn't think that this will cost Sony as much in immediate monetary damage as many seem to think. He does agree that Sony has an uphill climb to restore consumer confidence, though.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 14, 2011, 04:25:41 PM
To date there have been no confirmed reports of credit card fraud resulting from the PSN hack. That's not to say CC info wasn't accessed or even stolen, but its possible that the hacking had nothing whatsoever to do with the hackers wanting to commit CC fraud. I still believe what I've believed all along: that this was done in retaliation over the Other OS/Geo Hot situation. Until there is some confirmed reports of CC fraud resulting from this there's no reason to believe otherwise. As of now there's still no proof of that.
That said, since whoever did this wasn't after money and since this seems to be because of a vendetta against Sony it is likely that more attacks will follow. When thieves break into your home and rob you blind they're done with you. They took what you have and they aren't going to bother you again... but if someone has a personal hatred towards you they aren't going to just leave you alone. They don't break into your house for their own personal gain; they do it to smash everything you own just to cause grief to you.
I'm sure whoever did it is feeling proud of the harm they've caused, and its likely that they will want to do even more harm to Sony. Sony is a business that only thinks in terms of profit, so it may be very difficult for them to understand that people have emotions and not everything they do is motivated by greed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 04:42:57 PM
Sony is a business that only thinks in terms of profit, so it may be very difficult for them to understand that people have emotions and not everything they do is motivated by greed.
*sigh*
Not to get too off-course here, but statements like this really make me cringe. Sony is a business. Their one and only job (and it is one that is monitored quite closely by the shareholders they are beholden to) is to make money, to profit in any way possible. If you don't like it, you don't buy their products. If enough people don't buy their products, the company changes their business model or goes under. And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. That's how it should be in a capitalistic society, with minimal intervention by the local government to ensure they follow basic laws set by the people. "Greed", the desire to want more than you have and the dedication to realize your desires is one of the primary forces that ensures that our civilization continues to evolve and change. It is neither innately bad nor good.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Mop it up on May 14, 2011, 05:02:35 PM
"Greed", the desire to want more than you have and the dedication to realize your desires is one of the primary forces that ensures that our civilization continues to evolve and change.
Maybe so, but I think philanthropy is a better motivator to evolve civilization. It's just a shame that seems to be a rarity in people.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 14, 2011, 05:36:41 PM
If we're talking about business, money is the greatest motivator. If we're talking about civilization as a whole, the need to be better than our previous generation is our greatest motivator.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 14, 2011, 07:08:47 PM
I support capitalism and I don't think profit is an evil thing. All I'm saying is that Sony is a business and that's all their thinking is limited to. They don't understand the motives of the hackers, just like how they didn't understand Geo Hot or his motives. Geo Hot and the hackers were not thinking in terms of profit. They're like two alien cultures to one another. Did you ever see that episode of Star Trek TNG when they meet those aliens that talk only in metaphors? Even though the universal translator put what they were saying into plain English the two sides still couldn't understand one another. The brain processes are very different.
Since Sony thinks purely in terms of profit they are viewing this whole situation through a distorted lens. They assume CC info was the target, because that would be profitable to the hackers. They don't understand the concept of vendetta. They don't understand it because it has nothing to do with profit. Sony is made up of individual humans, but the entity as a whole does not think like a human being. That's all I'm trying to say... I'm not ranting against capitalism or saying profit is bad. I'm just saying that Sony is narrowminded and they should have seen that they were pissing people off. Its not like the attacks came out of nowhere and without warning. Anonymous warned they were going to do soemthing. Sony views other companies as the real threats, just like how the dinosaurs were more concerned about other dinosaurs and they didn't think much about those tiny mammals scurrying around beneath their feet. The threat posed by hackers wasn't on their radar at all. They forced Geo Hot to settle and they thought was the end of the story, but apparently it wasn't.
ETA: I just though of a better analogy. Sony was like Sauron from the Lord of the Rings. Sauron believed that the power of the ring would tempt anyone and so the thought that someone would destroy the ring never occurred to him until it was too late.
But no, I don't consider profit a bad thing. Sony making profit wasn't what pissed people off. It was how they went about making their profit that pissed people off. Ripping people off, removing features, installing rootkits, etc. That sort of thing. They weren't respecting the rights of consumers. Sony has a right to make a profit, but like someone once said (I think it was Ben Franklin) "your rights end where my rights begin".
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 07:20:32 PM
Did you ever see that episode of Star Trek TNG when they meet those aliens that talk only in metaphors? Even though the universal translator put what they were saying into plain English the two sides still couldn't understand one another.
Darkmok and Jilade. When the Walls Fell.
Yeah, "Darmok" was a great episode. Not as great as "The Best of Both Worlds", "Tapestry", "The Inner Light", or "All Good Things..." but it's up there.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 14, 2011, 07:24:39 PM
It appears that PSN is back up, at least in some limited capacity. I tried to sign in, and instead of telling me it was under maintenance it told me to download a system update.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 07:31:00 PM
It appears that PSN is back up, at least in some limited capacity. I tried to sign in, and instead of telling me it was under maintenance it told me to download a system update.
Yep, Sony just updated their blog (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/14/ps3-system-software-update/) stating just that: they're putting the system update there so everyone can get their PS3's ready for when the network is brought back up. If they're doing this now, I'd hope that means we're really close to that, like within a day.
EDIT: ...and that was pretty underwhelming. The update only took less than a minute to download and about 3 to install, and that's all you can do. I didn't expect to be able to sign-in, but I did expect to be able to change my password. Nope, that's still down for the moment, assuming that they don't need to send me an email with a password since this isn't my original PS3.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 14, 2011, 07:38:27 PM
As long as it's up by Wednesday it's fine by me. I've got finals the first part of this week, so I wouldn't have much time to play, but as of 2 PM Wednesday I'm on summer break, and I'm going to want to celebrate with, among other things, some MLB The Show.
EDIT: Yeah, now that I've installed the update it's back to saying PSN's under maintenance.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 14, 2011, 08:02:14 PM
Maybe this patch was just intended to lock out hackers before the REAL patch can be rolled out.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 08:06:58 PM
Kazuo Hirai announces (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/14/kazuo-hirai-playstation-network-relaunch-announcement/) the relaunch of phase 1 of the Playstation Network "in most territories" as of right now on the Playstation Blog. That means online play, Netflix, and Sony's silly music-streaming service I can't be bothered to spell.
Umm, that's nice and all, Kaz, but as of this writing I still can't log-in and my PS3 says the network is still down for maintenance. :-\
UPDATE - The Sony Blog now has a map of the United States on this page (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/14/play-on-%E2%80%93-psn-restoration-begins-now/). When your state is shaded in, PSN has been restored to that region of the country, though you may have to wait a little bit for the "servers to populate" before you can log-in.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 14, 2011, 08:33:58 PM
See, I couldn't buy that Darmok episode, largely because I cannot understand how a civilization could FUNCTION by speaking only in metaphors. How would that even develop? You have to have a more stable grammatical system before you start going off and forming metaphors, so why not just stick with the base linguistic skulls? It's less of a hassle.
It was also cheap that the horrible alien monster they were trying to avoid was conveniently cloaked.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 14, 2011, 08:41:25 PM
See, I couldn't buy that Darmok episode, largely because I cannot understand how a civilization could FUNCTION by speaking only in metaphors. How would that even develop? You have to have a more stable grammatical system before you start going off and forming metaphors, so why not just stick with the base linguistic skulls? It's less of a hassle.
It was also cheap that the horrible alien monster they were trying to avoid was conveniently cloaked.
I agree, and I also found it extremely odd that this advanced metaphor speaking alien species (they were so advanced their ship outmatched the Galaxy class Enterprise D for example) has been in space for god know's how long and so you'd think they would have encountered many races themselves over the years, so learning how to communicate with non-metaphorical species should have been a hurdle they should have had to cross many times before, but the episode treats it like this is their first time.
But its best not to nitpick things like Star Trek because if you do it seriously damages your enjoyment.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 10:22:18 PM
But its best not to nitpick things like Star Trek because if you do it seriously damages your enjoyment.
Indeed, when you have a series that explains away any story contrivance with technobabble like "Multimodal reflection sorting", it's best to just go with the flow.
By the way, according to the newly-updated map, PSN has now been restored in the Northeast United States (Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Vermont). Hopefully, the restoration moves East-to-West, as I live in Florida and would like to see it restored here before I go to bed. ;)
EDIT: Ugh...California just got added. Sony's doing this randomly. Why am I not surprised? :-\
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 14, 2011, 11:06:43 PM
"Greed", the desire to want more than you have and the dedication to realize your desires is one of the primary forces that ensures that our civilization continues to evolve and change. It is neither innately bad nor good.
Greed isn't the desire to want more than you have, it's the desire to want more than is needed. It almost always spirals into malevolence as people are driven to acquire more than is needed by depriving others of precisely what is needed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 14, 2011, 11:10:55 PM
"Greed", the desire to want more than you have and the dedication to realize your desires is one of the primary forces that ensures that our civilization continues to evolve and change. It is neither innately bad nor good.
Greed isn't the desire to want more than you have, it's the desire to want more than is needed. It almost always spirals into malevolence as people are driven to acquire more than is needed by depriving others of precisely what is needed.
And who are you or anyone else to tell someone what they "need"? Besides, if you want to go by the strictest terms, all human beings "need" to survive is food, water, and some form of shelter. Sorry, but I look for a bit more than that in life, and I don't think badly of anyone else who feels the same.
Besides, anything in this world is bad in excess...even the best intentions and philanthropy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 15, 2011, 12:00:17 AM
I would like to hear your argument for how you can have too much philanthropy.
Also, to be on topic, I'm 20 minutes from the New York border, and will be very pissed if Pennsylvania doesn't have PSN back by the end of the Sounders game.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 12:04:30 AM
I would like to hear your argument for how you can have too much philanthropy.
It could lead to dependence. I heard somewhere that millions of people would starve to death if the U.S. suddenly ceased to export food aid to foreign countries. Its not a good thing to be dependent on someone else's charity. If you do, then you have less incentive to provide for yourself and then it can be disastrous when that charity becomes severed for some reason. The best kind of philanthropy I think is the kind that helps people to help themselves. As Lao Tzu said, give a man a fish and he eats for a die but teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 12:06:47 AM
I would like to hear your argument for how you can have too much philanthropy.
Alright, Wikipedia defines philanthropy as "the pursuit of excellence in every facet of human life, for every human life, by imagining and implementing new systems, to bring that philosophy to fruition." In excess you have a desire to "improve" the lives of others as you define it, even against their wishes if it advances your agenda. After all, you know best. That can lead to philosophies like Socialism, or any other Big Government-centric political philosophy for that matter.
I would like to hear your argument for how you can have too much philanthropy.
It could lead to dependence. I heard somewhere that millions of people would starve to death if the U.S. suddenly ceased to export food aid to foreign countries. Its not a good thing to be dependent on someone else's charity. If you do, then you have less incentive to provide for yourself and then it can be disastrous when that charity becomes severed for some reason. The best kind of philanthropy I think is the kind that helps people to help themselves. As Lao Tzu said, give a man a fish and he eats for a die but teach him how to fish and he eats for a lifetime.
Yep, that too.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 15, 2011, 12:14:13 AM
An argument based on the wording of a definition found on Wikipedia isn't very compelling, but Chozo Ghost came up with a halfway decent answer. Either way, in addition to being extremely off topic, this is getting far too close to politics, so let's get back to taking shots at Sony, okay people?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 12:15:56 AM
Quick PSN Update: The Southeast United States has now been added to the restored list: Maryland, North & South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida. :D
Either way, in addition to being extremely off topic, this is getting far too close to politics, so let's get back to taking shots at Sony, okay people?
Agreed.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 12:33:08 AM
So, has anyone besides me had their PSN restored? It was nice to get all those trophies synched (including getting my Fallout 3 trophies back so I can jump into the DLC now).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Mop it up on May 15, 2011, 12:38:54 AM
Either way, in addition to being extremely off topic, this is getting far too close to politics, so let's get back to taking shots at Sony, okay people?
Ah dirty floors, I'd just written up a nice post about how philanthropy is a much better motivator than greed and one's own ego, but now that you've said this I should probably can it. Oh well.
I can at least agree that yes, excess of anything can be bad.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 15, 2011, 12:41:47 AM
Aw man, my best friend from Florida is online! DX
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 12:49:25 AM
Ah dirty floors, I'd just written up a nice post about how philanthropy is a much better motivator than greed and one's own ego, but now that you've said this I should probably can it. Oh well.
For the record, I actually agreed with you. I just hadn't found a good place to post it with everything else that needed to be said. I just think there's a role for both in a healthy civilization.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Mop it up on May 15, 2011, 12:56:05 AM
I guess I'll just say that I think things work as they are now. In order for philanthropy to work as my idea would have suggested, humans would have to be free of an ego. But every human has one, and so, given that, I think the system we have now works pretty well, even with some of its problems. I guess I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 12:57:08 AM
I heard from one of my online friends who lives in Florida that it is up there. It is still down here in Michigan, though.
As for the whole Philanthropy thing, let me ask who are the ones who do the most philanthropy? The Millionaires and especially Billionaires like Bill Gates and so on. But how did they get to be Billionaires? Greed. Had they been content with just enough for their own mere survival then they would not have created enough wealth to be capable of helping others. So in that sense Greed and Philanthropy go hand in hand. Also, if it weren't for the rich the governments of the world wouldn't have the revenue via taxes for all that government aid and so on. So greed is vital, because without greed there is less tax revenue to be obtained. Whether the charity is done voluntarily, or through force by the government either way it depends on people actually having the wealth in the first place, and that's why greed is essential.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 01:24:26 AM
I heard from one of my online friends who lives in Florida that it is up there. It is still down here in Michigan, though.
Try it now. The map's been updated with Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, West Virgina, Virginia, and Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 01:46:40 AM
Yeah, its telling me an email was sent and to follow the instructions in the email but the problem is that email never came. I've been waiting like 20 minutes. I tried to get another email to be sent but it gave me a server error. Looks like I may need to create a new account...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 01:59:12 AM
Yeah, its telling me an email was sent and to follow the instructions in the email but the problem is that email never came. I've been waiting like 20 minutes. I tried to get another email to be sent but it gave me a server error. Looks like I may need to create a new account...
Hmm...odd. I'm not on the PS3 I created that account on (my dead 80 GB), yet I was able to log-in and change my password just like that. I guess the Email people are going to be dealt with in one go, so you'll probably have to wait for the rest of the U.S. to be restored before they'll send it out.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 02:52:14 AM
They said in a previous blog entry that people who bought stuff on PSN could just change the password through the console, so that's why it was easy for you. I have never (yet, but may some day) purchased anything over PSN, so I have to change my password via email. I don't know why that's the case, but I guess its natural to expect it to take awhile for millions of emails to get sent. That may be the reason they're rolling this out slowly instead of all at once, because if everything went online at once it might overwhelm the network.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 03:15:48 AM
Last update of the night: The Playstation Blog's reporting that the entire United States and Canada are now restored on the PSN. If you are so inclined, enjoy finally being able to play online on the PS3 now! I'll look forward to the relaunch of the shop in the coming weeks.
EDIT: IGN's reporting that Sony Online Entertainment's servers are restored again as well, so if you play DC Universe Online, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. you're all set.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 15, 2011, 02:08:42 PM
I think I'll wait until it gets breached again before I sign back on. Plus I just got a Wireless N adapter for my 360, so there's no need to PSN for a while.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 02:45:27 PM
I'm sure there will be attempts to breach it again. Whether those attempts will succeed or not depends on how well Sony beefed up the security on it. I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 15, 2011, 03:32:30 PM
GN's reporting that Sony Online Entertainment's servers are restored again as well, so if you play DC Universe Online, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. you're all set.
People play MMOs on consoles? And to think, I said that genre couldn't get any worse. :P
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on May 15, 2011, 03:39:31 PM
GN's reporting that Sony Online Entertainment's servers are restored again as well, so if you play DC Universe Online, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, etc. you're all set.
People play MMOs on consoles? And to think, I said that genre couldn't get any worse. :P
Soon, people will buy a free-to-play online game box for their TVs. It has a credit card reader so you can access the cash shop easily.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Plugabugz on May 15, 2011, 05:29:43 PM
I think for now i will take up deleting my credit card details, wait for good deals on PSN cards, and move my PSN email address to ps3<name>@whatever.com. There was a £50 one for £40 some time ago, so hopefully there will be another.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 15, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
Well, Trophies and multiplayer are well and good, but I'm still waiting for my Dante's Inferno DLC.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 15, 2011, 09:28:42 PM
Hmm....when I got home today I tried to create my new password so I could log into psn...gave me some error message or saying the server timed out.
I assume this is because everyone else is trying to do the same thing. Good thing I don't have enough time to get any serious gaming in tonight.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 15, 2011, 09:38:30 PM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 15, 2011, 09:41:17 PM
I was just on...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 09:41:56 PM
Its still up for me....
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 15, 2011, 09:43:34 PM
Did you restart? I was on fine and seeing people on my friend list. I just couldn't get back into it. Maybe its a regional issue, too.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 15, 2011, 09:58:29 PM
Good news, everyone! (http://twitter.com/#%21/PlayStation/status/69922834364907520)
Quote
We're expereiencing a heavy load of password resets and will be turning off the services for 30 minutes to clear the queue.
:-\
On a side note, bought Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem this weekend as a part of my effort to backtrack and experience games I've missed. Was this a good decision? Anyone else here play it?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 10:04:31 PM
Lolmonade, what is your avatar supposed to mean? It looks like a giant girl the size of Godzilla towering over skyscrapers and above her it says "White People". I just don't get it... Can you explain? I'm not trying to imply anything, I'm just genuinely curious what its supposed to be about.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 15, 2011, 10:07:22 PM
Lolmonade, what is your avatar supposed to mean? It looks like a giant girl the size of Godzilla towering over skyscrapers and above her it says "White People". I just don't get it... Can you explain? I'm not trying to imply anything, I'm just genuinely curious what its supposed to be about.
LOL.
Well, there was this short-lived internet meme. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0)
And I noticed this gif taken from the video that I found hilarious. (http://www.damnthatsracist.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/friday.gif)
And I can't figure out how to make gifs work on this forum :(
I really should just change my image back to derpy sonic collecting a ring. (http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn89/KISSarmy73/derp-derp-sonic-lol-4chan-b-demotivational-poster-1229975792.jpg)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 15, 2011, 10:09:42 PM
We're expereiencing a heavy load of password resets and will be turning off the services for 30 minutes to clear the queue.
:-\
On a side note, bought Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem this weekend as a part of my effort to backtrack and experience games I've missed. Was this a good decision? Anyone else here play it?
30 minutes was almost an hour ago :(
Yes, I played Eternal Darkness 3 or 4 times. I enjoyed it, though the spell making wasn't as dynamic as was promised (Matt Cassamasinanana of IGN really hyped the idea in a preview of the game). The insanity effects are fun.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 15, 2011, 10:10:07 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with that game.
As a huge fan of the Cthulhu Mythos and Lovecraft in general, it's good to see a horror game mine that particular sub-genre. However, the gameplay is the worst part of the game. Combat never ceases to be a chore, the magic system is a mess (I should make it clear right now that YOU CAN RESTORE SANITY) and the game's central "hook" (sanity effects) are initially cool and jarring but VERY QUICKLY lose their appeal. It's always obvious when something is a sanity effect.
I had to struggle to finish the game, and once I did, I had no desire to go back and replay it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 15, 2011, 10:15:50 PM
LOL... okay. That girl has such a small appearance in the video that most people probably wouldn't notice. I don't know why, but the frame frozen in your avatar makes it look like she's like godzilla or something getting ready to demolish the city. lol I'm sure animated pictures DO work on the forum, but I'm not sure if they work for avatars. I guess the mods would know.
BTW, I also liked your original avatar with the evil looking Sonic. That was cool. :)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 15, 2011, 11:04:02 PM
PSN is back up, though any online play will have to wait for another day. :(
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 15, 2011, 11:30:34 PM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 15, 2011, 11:39:19 PM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Not without PSN being up, you can't. Besides, the game is great on PS3. Why would you ever want to play this console game on PC? :P: ;)
Anyway, if you guys haven't been able to log-in recently, try it now. I just signed into the network after PSN booted me out earlier when they reset the servers. Playing some Fallout 3 DLC...and man I'd forgotten how much this game is a magnificent technical disaster on PS3.
BTW, I did get all the Steel Ingots. Working on Point Lookout now.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 16, 2011, 12:30:31 AM
Portal 2 on PS3 has one technical hiccup for me: static anytime someone talks. Which is pretty much all the time. Drives me crazy. I am thinking its one of those model specific glitches as I have played the game on another PS3 and there is no static, and I don't have a single other game that produces static of any kind.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 12:33:26 AM
Portal 2 on PS3 has one technical hiccup for me: static anytime someone talks. Which is pretty much all the time. Drives me crazy. I am thinking its one of those model specific glitches as I have played the game on another PS3 and there is no static, and I don't have a single other game that produces static of any kind.
I think it must be something about your PS3, because I've run through pretty much the entire Singleplayer Campaign (and most of the Co-op Campaign) twice, and I've had no issues with the audio.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 16, 2011, 12:59:40 AM
Do you remember GTA IV having 'issues' with launch PS3s? A friend of mine had to send his PS3 in for the fix... I'm thinking its along those lines. I got my PS3 with the Metal Gear combo. There is a similar bug report in the Valve forums, but that report is for the PC version.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 16, 2011, 08:49:34 AM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Not without PSN being up, you can't. Besides, the game is great on PS3. Why would you ever want to play this console game on PC? :P: ;)
Anyway, if you guys haven't been able to log-in recently, try it now. I just signed into the network after PSN booted me out earlier when they reset the servers. Playing some Fallout 3 DLC...and man I'd forgotten how much this game is a magnificent technical disaster on PS3.
BTW, I did get all the Steel Ingots. Working on Point Lookout now.
What does PSN have to do with the PC version? You get it from Steam.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 16, 2011, 09:56:33 AM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Not without PSN being up, you can't. Besides, the game is great on PS3. Why would you ever want to play this console game on PC? :P: ;)
It's all tied into Steam though. Owning the PS3 version grants you the right to the PC version as well. Admittedly, I don't know the logistics of it, but I'd imagine that all you have to do is log onto the Steam client on your PC and download it it... unless you have to do some stupid registering through the PS3 first.
A little off topic, but I can only imagine that they've made Portal 2 an even easier game than the first. There's no way Valve could expect people to be able to jump, dive, and move through portals in any reasonable fashion with sluggish dual-analog look and aim.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Nick DiMola on May 16, 2011, 10:04:10 AM
PS3 copy comes with a Steam Key that you can just plug in on the PC/Mac.
From my experience, dual analog worked fine for Portal 2. There are almost no puzzles that require quick precision aiming, so you can typically take your time when solving the puzzles.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 16, 2011, 10:06:15 AM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Not without PSN being up, you can't. Besides, the game is great on PS3. Why would you ever want to play this console game on PC? :P: : ;)
It's all tied into Steam though. Owning the PS3 version grants you the right to the PC version as well. Admittedly, I don't know the logistics of it, but I'd imagine that all you have to do is log onto the Steam client on your PC and download it it... unless you have to do some stupid registering through the PS3 first.
A little off topic, but I can only imagine that they've made Portal 2 an even easier game than the first. There's no way Valve could expect people to be able to jump, dive, and move through portals in any reasonable fashion with sluggish dual-analog look and aim.
Do you not realize that Portal 1 was on consoles as well? Obviously they dumbed down the game since then. lol.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 16, 2011, 10:38:50 AM
I hate hitting the 'New' button, being taken to a post, and then I want to reply before looking to see if there are any other pages beyond what I was taken to.
I played the first Portal on the 360, and I think the movement of the analog sticks and the speed were things you got used to. There were times that I made sure I was facing a particular way so hitting a target was easier.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 16, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
Their are some puzzles that I had to jump in the portal, see what It would look like on the other end, and adjust my aim accordingly. They do make you shoot off to other parts when bouncing out of portals. I can only imagine co-op being more of that from what I've done.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 16, 2011, 11:37:44 AM
The network is back down. :( I tried to login to Steam to play Portal 2 and I couldn't. I shut down the PS3 and restarted and now I get the maintenance message. That didn't last long.
It's a good thing you can just download and play it on your PC instead! ;)
Not without PSN being up, you can't. Besides, the game is great on PS3. Why would you ever want to play this console game on PC? :P: : ;)
It's all tied into Steam though. Owning the PS3 version grants you the right to the PC version as well. Admittedly, I don't know the logistics of it, but I'd imagine that all you have to do is log onto the Steam client on your PC and download it it... unless you have to do some stupid registering through the PS3 first.
A little off topic, but I can only imagine that they've made Portal 2 an even easier game than the first. There's no way Valve could expect people to be able to jump, dive, and move through portals in any reasonable fashion with sluggish dual-analog look and aim.
Do you not realize that Portal 1 was on consoles as well? Obviously they dumbed down the game since then. lol.
Portal was hardly the focus though. It was a small treat that everyone found they liked after buying the Orange Box for its larger titles.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 12:35:52 PM
There's no way Valve could expect people to be able to jump, dive, and move through portals in any reasonable fashion with sluggish dual-analog look and aim.
Dude, I played Portal 1 on my laptop's touchpad. And if I could manage that, you can get through Portal 1 with a controller easily.
Anyway, back to PSN news, the blog's been updated with a new set of FAQs (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/16/psn-faq-restoration-questions-answered/). Among the questions they answer is this one that interests me:
Quote
Q: The PlayStation Store hasn’t updated since April 19th. When can I download digital games that were planned to be released since then? A: To date, three Tuesday publishes were missed, which included items like Under Siege and the MotorStorm Apocalypse demo. Rest assured that you won’t miss any of this great content. To catch up on the large amount of material, we’ll be publishing to the PlayStation Store multiple times per week once commerce functionality is restored. We will update the PlayStation.Blog with information on timing of the Store restoration, as well as the full list of new content as each publish occurs.
So once the store is back online, we're going to be seeing it updated multiple times a week to catch-up with where we should be. Nice for us, bad for developers that were banking on a little weekly spotlight.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 01:43:22 PM
A little, yeah. I followed a very good guide, though, that had step-by-step instructions for where to go and what to look for so it wasn't that bad. I did have a bug, though, where I had to reload a save file because one of the ingots in a pile simply didn't spawn. I also had the game crash a few times in the process, but surprise...surprise. It's Fallout 3 on PS3. It runs like **** (I'm in Point Lookout, and the game's been crashing probably 3/5 times I use VATS in a minor firefight). No surprises there.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 16, 2011, 02:07:40 PM
I believe he's referring to the free PC copy that comes with the PS3 version, but requires a PSN login to activate.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 16, 2011, 02:32:41 PM
It's not "good for us" and "bad for developers" that they're going to update the store a couple of times a week. It's bad for everyone, because the **** was down for a month and all of our accounts were hacked. IT'S BAD FOR EVERYONE. Also, there were a pretty huge number of people that went out and bought 360s (or got their 360s fixed) while PSN was down, which again, is bad for everyone...except Microsoft.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 02:51:31 PM
It's not "good for us" and "bad for developers" that they're going to update the store a couple of times a week. It's bad for everyone, because the **** was down for a month and all of our accounts were hacked. IT'S BAD FOR EVERYONE. Also, there were a pretty huge number of people that went out and bought 360s (or got their 360s fixed) while PSN was down, which again, is bad for everyone...except Microsoft.
As they like to say on GameFAQs: "Old News is Old". I wasn't talking about the information theft and you know it. I was referring specifically to how if you're a 3rd party developer on PSN, you are relying on your stuff coming out on a specific date with a specific buffer window between your software and those of other developers. With Sony releasing multiple updates a week, the second and third tier PSN software is going to especially struggle to sell (more than it already would with consumer confidence taking the hit it did with the PSN outage) all bunched together like that. It's good for us, though, since there's all this new software coming out nearly at once.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 16, 2011, 03:03:07 PM
I didn't say you were talking about the theft. I'm saying that the reason we're getting these "rapid updates" is because SONY's trying to rush out the stuff that we didn't get to use while they were "fixing" the network that was taken down after SONY lost all of our personal information. I get what you're saying, but if someone who gives you a piece of free candy every week (in exchange for handling your personal information) accidentally gives away all of your personal information, including credit card numbers, takes a month to figure out how to get your candy back, then gives you say 4 pieces at once (and in turn not letting each candy distributor get a fair shake at winning you over, since you're "overloaded" with candy now), it doesn't mean that it's "good" for anyone.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 16, 2011, 03:29:10 PM
Also, there were a pretty huge number of people that went out and bought 360s (or got their 360s fixed) while PSN was down, which again, is bad for everyone...except Microsoft.
Who is now selling 6mo of Xbox Live for $6 http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/hulu-plus/jack-links
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 16, 2011, 03:41:22 PM
Also, there were a pretty huge number of people that went out and bought 360s (or got their 360s fixed) while PSN was down, which again, is bad for everyone...except Microsoft.
Who is now selling 6mo of Xbox Live for $6 http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/hulu-plus/jack-links
Take an opportunity their.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 16, 2011, 03:47:45 PM
Also, there were a pretty huge number of people that went out and bought 360s (or got their 360s fixed) while PSN was down, which again, is bad for everyone...except Microsoft.
Who is now selling 6mo of Xbox Live for $6 http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/hulu-plus/jack-links
Take an opportunity their.
Looks like the deal has changed to Buy 3 get 1 Free since I first saw it this morning.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 04:42:59 PM
The PSN relaunch has taken an interesting twist, as the Japanese government has refused (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/16/japanese-government-refuses-sony-approval-for-psn-relaunch/) to let Sony relaunch it in Japan, citing that they are not satisfied that Sony has sufficient protections against credit card theft like they said they would do at their May 1st Press Conference.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 05:07:06 PM
A little, yeah. I followed a very good guide, though, that had step-by-step instructions for where to go and what to look for so it wasn't that bad. I did have a bug, though, where I had to reload a save file because one of the ingots in a pile simply didn't spawn. I also had the game crash a few times in the process, but surprise...surprise. It's Fallout 3 on PS3. It runs like **** (I'm in Point Lookout, and the game's been crashing probably 3/5 times I use VATS in a minor firefight). No surprises there.
Was Wild Bill there where he was supposed to be for you? There is a fairly common bug where his corpse falls through the map making it impossible to retrieve his gun and therefore the side quest. Fortunately, there is no trophy associated with that so you don't absolutely need to. There's actually a trick to get out of the map and get down to where his corpse is and I actually did that and I saw his body but it has fallen into an area I couldn't get to so I never was able to retrieve his gun... oh well, no big deal really.
Do you have the Mysterious Stranger perk? I did, and it seems like VATS would mess up a lot more because of that. I'd run into situations like where I would be sniping at someone over a great distance and then the mysterious stranger's music would play indicating his appearance but I never actually seen him and the target was never killed. The game didn't freeze, but it continued in ridiculously slow motion and was stuck in that limbo until I gave up and restarted the console. This happened to me perhaps 5 times throughout the game. For that reason I don't think I would recommend anyone using that perk. If it worked as intended it would be a cool perk and helpful at times, but its seriously bugged and Bethesda is not going to patch that at this point. The Mysterious Stranger can also cause some problems because he steals your kill which causes you to lose the XP you would have gained, and it can also screw up certain missions such as "you gotta shoot em in the head" where you are supposed to do the killing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 16, 2011, 05:13:02 PM
The PSN relaunch has taken an interesting twist, as the Japanese government has refused (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/16/japanese-government-refuses-sony-approval-for-psn-relaunch/) to let Sony relaunch it in Japan, citing that they are not satisfied that Sony has sufficient protections against credit card theft like they said they would do at their May 1st Press Conference.
Good for Japan. Looking out for it's people and not just corporate interest. After a breach like this for a company of that size, Sony should have to jump through hoops to prove that the problem is contained and not likely to happen again.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 16, 2011, 05:18:29 PM
The PSN relaunch has taken an interesting twist, as the Japanese government has refused (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/16/japanese-government-refuses-sony-approval-for-psn-relaunch/) to let Sony relaunch it in Japan, citing that they are not satisfied that Sony has sufficient protections against credit card theft like they said they would do at their May 1st Press Conference.
Good for Japan. Looking out for it's people and not just corporate interest. After a breach like this for a company of that size, Sony should have to jump through hoops to prove that the problem is contained and not likely to happen again.
Government looking after people... Who would have thunk. Well taking bets on when you guys Japan PSN will be back up. I know Newscast has after the 3DS eShop.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 05:19:17 PM
Not to mention that Sony is a Japanese corporation, so the fact the Japanese government isn't going soft on them for that reason is remarkable. In comparison our government went soft on BP (a British corporation) after the oil spill, and is going soft on Sony now by casually allowing them to do whatever they want. Not to mention those corporate bailouts a few years back where billions of tax payer dollars were given to corporate giants.
At least the Japanese Government isn't as corrupted apparently.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 16, 2011, 05:24:45 PM
Not to mention that Sony is a Japanese corporation, so the fact the Japanese government isn't going soft on them for that reason is remarkable. In comparison our government went soft on BP (a British corporation) after the oil spill, and is going soft on Sony now by casually allowing them to do whatever they want. Not to mention those corporate bailouts a few years back where billions of tax payer dollars were given to corporate giants.
At least the Japanese Government isn't as corrupted apparently.
I will not say what came to mind because of forum rules.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 05:36:02 PM
Was Wild Bill there where he was supposed to be for you? There is a fairly common bug where his corpse falls through the map making it impossible to retrieve his gun and therefore the side quest. Fortunately, there is no trophy associated with that so you don't absolutely need to. There's actually a trick to get out of the map and get down to where his corpse is and I actually did that and I saw his body but it has fallen into an area I couldn't get to so I never was able to retrieve his gun... oh well, no big deal really.
Do you have the Mysterious Stranger perk? I did, and it seems like VATS would mess up a lot more because of that.
No, Wild Bill wasn't where he was supposed to be, as a matter of fact. I figured he wasn't there at the time because I hadn't talked with the lady who asked me to find him. Huh.
And yes, I have the Mysterious Stranger perk, and it's proven quite helpful. Where I'm often seeing crashes, though, is the Zoom into VATS mode, though I have seen crashes as well where I'm about to fire the fatal blow in VATS against a guy and the game just freezes on the shot of me aiming my gun.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 05:53:26 PM
There's a fallout Wiki and I read about a VATS bug when you're in the Yao Gaoi caves there's a scripted event where a bear or group of bears run across the path in front of you, but they're not real Yao Gaoi and basically just scripted dummies. The Wiki said if you try to target them in VATS the game will crash.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 05:57:53 PM
Ok, the PS Blog's been updated (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/16/details-for-playstation-network-and-qriocity-customer-appreciation-program-in-north-america/) with exact details of what the NA "Welcome Back" program will entail. And it's...pretty much what we expected.
PS3 Owners will be able to download 2 of the following games for Free for 30 days after the Store is restored. You will be able to keep these games "forever":
Dead Nation
inFAMOUS
LittleBigPlanet
Super Stardust HD
Wipeout HD + Fury
PSP Owenrs will be able to download 2 of the following games as well under the same conditions:
LittleBigPlanet (PSP)
ModNation Racers
Pursuit Force
Killzone Liberation
There will also apparently be a selection of rental movie titles available over one weekend that will be free to download. In a slight change from what was announced as well, existing PS+ Users will get 60 days added onto your accounts instead of the 30 everyone else is getting. That sounds like it's just the 30 extra days the service has been out.
So, what are you guys picking? I'm probably going to go with Infamous and LittleBigPlanet for the PS3 (maybe Super Stardust HD instead of one of those), and I have no idea what to pick for the PSP. None of those titles altogether interest me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 06:18:22 PM
What if someone for some reason already happens to own all those games being offered?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 06:22:13 PM
What if someone for some reason already happens to own all those games being offered?
"Tough"? *shrugs*
I still think the best way Sony could have done this would be to just put x amount of dollars in your online wallet, but I wouldn't mind having LittleBigPlanet and maybe Super Stardust HD (plus whatever I'd pick for my PSP).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 06:26:01 PM
The list isn't very big and these seem to be popular games, so I'm sure there are people out there who do own all of them.
On a related note, I guess this will be a good thing for those people who happen to have multiple PSN accounts because with enough of them they could grab every game on the list.
ETA: These are older games and many of them have sequels. If you think about it this isn't really such a great gift. Its not like they're offering Killzone 3 or something which is new and still costs $60.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 16, 2011, 06:31:01 PM
Wait, in the case of Infamous and LittleBigPlanet, are these the full retail versions? I wasn't too thrilled about Infamous' demo but I'll take the whole game for free! :) Already have LittleBigPlanet so maybe I'll go with Super Stardust HD.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 16, 2011, 06:34:28 PM
The list isn't very big and these seem to be popular games, so I'm sure there are people out there who do own all of them.
On a related note, I guess this will be a good thing for those people who happen to have multiple PSN accounts because with enough of them they could grab every game on the list.
ETA: These are older games and many of them have sequels. If you think about it this isn't really such a great gift. Its not like they're offering Killzone 3 or something which is new and still costs $60.
Yes, they are older and popular games and I do think Sony should have just given us a certain amount in our wallets and let us spend it as we please. At the end of the day, though, this is a gift. No one is forcing Sony to give us this, and there are full retail games in here. I'm not going to complain too much about the selection when there's actual quality stuff in here that's worth more than I thought. It's not like they're PS1 Classics or something like the 360's "Undertow".
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 06:35:58 PM
Wait, in the case of Infamous and LittleBigPlanet, are these the full retail versions?
It depends on what you mean by full. I doubt these will include any DLC addons. You'd probably have to purchase those separately.
Like I said, these are older games which have sequels. There is an Infamous 2 and a Little Big Planet 2 out now. Sony is basically digging through their garage and offering us hand me downs.
As for this being a "gift" and the argument that we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, well its actually more like "compensation" than a gift per se. Are outdated budget titles appropriate compensation for identity theft? Opinions on that will vary. Personally, I think they could have done better. Much better.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 16, 2011, 06:58:12 PM
Compensation is more like it. It's not as if it's your birthday, after all.
That's what I said. A gift is something you give someone because you like them, not because you feel compelled to give it to them. This is more like a "here take this and please don't sue us" kind of gesture.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 16, 2011, 07:29:19 PM
This to me is like when they screw up your order at a restaurant and so you eat free. It's not something I would insist on or feel I have a right to, but I appreciate. It's a "sorry we screwed up" gesture. It's not going to be as sincere as if your friend gives you something to make up for a screw up but I'll take it.
Sony could have given us nothing at all and I wouldn't think twice about it. Just getting the damn network back up ASAP was all I expected out of them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 16, 2011, 08:21:50 PM
Ok I've got to admit - SONY fucked up ROYALLY, and Japan is doing everything right by making them basically prove themselves before they are allowed back on - BUT, SONY's "Customer Appreciation" program (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/16/details-for-playstation-network-and-qriocity-customer-appreciation-program-in-north-america/) is actually kind of nice. If you are a SONY fanboy, you basically get screwed, because you probably own all of the games they're offering, but I don't own any of them, so I'll be getting four free games (two PS3 and two PSP, since I own both sytems)...I think. If not, two free games is still pretty nice. I did take my PSP online once like 2 years ago, so hopefully I qualify for both systems...but I'm not updating my firmware if it's a requirement.
Edit - I guess I left my browser on this thread and didn't refresh before posting that. Oh well, it's still kind of nice, but in no way does it make up for their **** up.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 08:50:07 PM
I liked Broodwars idea that Sony should have just put a fixed amount in everyone's PSN store wallet thing and then just let them get whatever they want. Brandogg is right that ironically the ones who are going to see the least benefit are the Sony fanboys, since they are the ones most likely to already have these games anyway and there's only 5 games to choose from and these are older popular games so I think it will be a somewhat widespread issue for there to be people out there who already have all these games and are going to gain nothing from this. Broodwars idea of giving people money in their wallet solves this problem, because there is almost no one who has bought everything on PSN, and even if they did new stuff is always coming out so this way no one misses out....but this offering here of 5 popular older titles is going to be a problem for many people and especially the Fanboys, who ironically are the ones most deserving of getting something.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 16, 2011, 08:55:07 PM
So if I haven't logged-in to PSN in a while and have never bought a thing, do I get to a chance to download these games (which I already have for the most part)?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 16, 2011, 08:57:29 PM
So if I haven't logged-in to PSN in a while and have never bought a thing, do I get to a chance to download these games (which I already have for the most part)?
I suppose so, but I don't think Sony would feel you are deserving of anything since you are a pirate. Not that they will ever know though, so I guess its all good. But you will have to install the latest firmware, and that may be an issue for you.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 16, 2011, 09:02:18 PM
It is. And I expected as much, but I was simply curious, is all.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on May 16, 2011, 10:04:55 PM
I wish they were giving away Flower.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 16, 2011, 11:27:12 PM
I could have gotten Little Big Planet for Free... I sort of feel ripped off after the hype getting it at the lower price... I know nothing about the other games...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 17, 2011, 01:55:32 AM
These games are weak. The only one I'd be interested in is Super Stardust. I may also get inFamous, but I doubt I'd play it much beyond the first couple of hours. I too would rather $40 in credit. There are a number of Rock Band songs I'd like to download.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 17, 2011, 07:12:10 AM
Dead Nation, inFamous, LittleBigPlanet, Super Stardust HD Wipeout HD + Fury.
Looks like the diehard Playstation fans are the ones getting the shaft with this selection, assuming those people probably own at least 3/4 of these games. Granted, Sony's probably more concerned with the less loyal fans jumping ship, and those people may not have gotten a chance to play these games. I think i'll be getting Wipeout HD & Super Stardust, given that I have inFamous, have already beaten LittleBigPlanet, and have no interest in Dead Nation.
Playstation+ benefits them more than us, as it will act as a free trial much like Netflix does, and if you decide it's worth the cost to join, then it's a net gain to them.
You would think Sony would use this as an opportunity to make amends to the 3rd party developers they scewed over by messing with their release window by offering credits or paying the developers to offer their upcoming PSN games as an option on this package.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 17, 2011, 12:21:00 PM
Quote
Looks like the diehard Playstation fans are the ones getting the shaft with this selection, assuming those people probably own at least 3/4 of these games.
Well to be fair, if Nintendo did something like this probably a good 80% of the people on this forum would already own whatever five titles they offered us. If you offer specific titles, this is just going to happen.
While getting a credit in your account to spend as you wish would be better, I can see why they want to do it this way. It's the same cost to Sony but this also works well as advertising. Infamous 2 is about to come out so if people download the first game and like it, maybe they'll buy the second. That's not really a good thing for us but you can see the appeal for Sony.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 17, 2011, 12:26:05 PM
Looks like the diehard Playstation fans are the ones getting the shaft with this selection, assuming those people probably own at least 3/4 of these games.
Well to be fair, if Nintendo did something like this probably a good 80% of the people on this forum would already own whatever five titles they offered us. If you offer specific titles, this is just going to happen.
While getting a credit in your account to spend as you wish would be better, I can see why they want to do it this way. It's the same cost to Sony but this also works well as advertising. Infamous 2 is about to come out so if people download the first game and like it, maybe they'll buy the second. That's not really a good thing for us but you can see the appeal for Sony.
As a person with business background/experience, I understand what you're saying. As a consumer and fan of the Playstation Brand, I'm saying it's a half-hearted attempt of an apology, and as both you and I have said, is more of a lure to get consumers to buy the next sequel of their franchises or continue a subscription of Playstation+ than to provide compensation.
If a company like valve can give away a great game to people that were accidentally banned on another company's game (http://www.gamertell.com/gaming/comment/valve-gives-away-left-4-dead-2-to-banned-players/), then I don't think it's unreasonable for Sony to provide something that benefits publishers and consumers universally.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 17, 2011, 12:45:54 PM
Looks like the diehard Playstation fans are the ones getting the shaft with this selection, assuming those people probably own at least 3/4 of these games.
Well to be fair, if Nintendo did something like this probably a good 80% of the people on this forum would already own whatever five titles they offered us. If you offer specific titles, this is just going to happen.
While getting a credit in your account to spend as you wish would be better, I can see why they want to do it this way. It's the same cost to Sony but this also works well as advertising. Infamous 2 is about to come out so if people download the first game and like it, maybe they'll buy the second. That's not really a good thing for us but you can see the appeal for Sony.
To me it seems like it's Sony way to do something while doing almost nothing at the same time. As far as I know all of those games are Sony games, and them giving it away for free cost them almost nothing. Giving everyone $40 cost them too much as they have to pay 3rd parties a cut of sales out of their own pocket for non-Sony games that get bought. So while a credit wasn't likely to happen, a larger selection would have been nice.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 17, 2011, 07:03:27 PM
I wonder if the real reason Sony is doing this "customer appreciation" thing might really just be for tax purposes. It doesn't cost them much, but they can write it off as a business expense and exaggerate and say it costs them $40 per person (or whatever the sum total of the software would normally cost on the PSN store) and then multiply that by the 77 million users it applies to. $40 times 77 million is a huge sum of money, and maybe their hope is to get that back via tax breaks or whatever.
But of course, it doesn't actually cost them anything (or not much anyway) to offer those as free digital downloads. But they can "cook the books" so to speak and make it seem like they're giving $40 worth of software away, when the total cost to them may only be like 4 cents or something.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on May 18, 2011, 12:48:24 AM
I have a concern that accepting the give-aways will negate your claim in a class action lawsuit. By downloading the titles, you are essentially saying 'I accept your apology, you're off the hook'. And probably to the vast majority, this is what they'll do. Which will give Sony ammo to fight the validity of a class action suit and try to reduce it to individual suits which it can hold off until the suing party runs out of money, or settles out of court to avoid admitting wrong-doing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 18, 2011, 12:56:56 AM
I have a concern that accepting the give-aways will negate your claim in a class action lawsuit. By downloading the titles, you are essentially saying 'I accept your apology, you're off the hook'. And probably to the vast majority, this is what they'll do. Which will give Sony ammo to fight the validity of a class action suit and try to reduce it to individual suits which it can hold off until the suing party runs out of money, or settles out of court to avoid admitting wrong-doing.
While I'm sure they could argue that point to a jury, I think that the only way this could negate a class action lawsuit was if there was legal text when you downloaded these freebies stating that you waive your right to a class action lawsuit. I read through the Terms & Conditions on the latest firmware, and I don't think that was displayed anywhere so I don't think Sony's had us agree to that yet.
Even still, though, would it really matter if we did lose the right to class action lawsuit Sony? It's not like we'd ever see a return on that, given the number of plaintiffs.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 18, 2011, 01:17:33 AM
In any case, I would strongly recommend everyone carefully read the fine print before they go "oh wow! free games!" and sell their souls so to speak. The offer is going to be in effect for 30 days, so you don't have to rush in and download the games on day one. I would recommend waiting and seeing what various websites and legal analysts and news media have to say about it first.
ETA: The games being offered aren't really anything I'm particularly interested in or was ever planning on buying anyway, so I can certainly skip this offer if I have to. As for not seeing anything from a class action lawsuit, well perhaps not, but there is a little something called principle that would still make it worthwhile to me to pursue it. I don't believe in people (or corporate entities) doing wrong and getting away with it, and I especially don't believe in people doing wrong 77 million times and getting away with it. Heads should roll because of this. Maybe we won't gain anything, but Sony definitely should lose something, just like the 77 million people who lost something because of this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 18, 2011, 09:52:09 AM
First they came for the Other OS, and I didn't speak out because I didn't use Linux.
Then they came for the hackers, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a hacker.
Then they came for my PSN and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 18, 2011, 11:07:34 AM
Looks like Sony F'd it up again http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430574 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430574)
but they were quick to "fix" it this time. -PSN password change hack-
Quote from: Metalmurphy
This is a continuation on this story: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430519 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430519)
First, to avoid unnecessary panic, let me just say that Sony already took the page down, and are most likely fixing it, and if you were a victim of this, you would get an email warning someone had changed your password, so if you didn't, you're safe.
Now to the whole story: This guy on twitter ( http://twitter.com/# (http://twitter.com/#)!/Nyleveia ) was claiming there was an exploit on the password recovery page that allowed anyone with a matching PSN login address and Date of Birth could change your password without you confirming it. Personally I didn't believe him so I gave him my login and dob. He didn't reply for a long time so I went to sleep. This morning however I got these 2 emails.
The first one is saying that someone had requested to change my password, and that I needed to click the confirmation link to continue. All normal for now, supposedly only people with access to the login address can change it then. HOWEVER the second email is a confirmation that the password was changed and I never clicked the confirmation link... So yeah... my password was successfully changed by someone else.
And where the story gets even more interesting is that Sony are just lying about it. This is their latest tweets.
Improve email process my ass. They took the password recovery page down because of this problem. Nyleveia warned about it, as confirmed by the latest tweet:
(the tweets warning about the exploit were removed, most likely cause Sony asked him to)
And now they're fixing the problem.
Honestly, I was never bothered by the original hack, no network is secure and I think Sony wasn't to blame and that they handled the entire thing by the book and quite well. This however... this is 100% on them, and what bothers me the most is that they're lying about it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on May 18, 2011, 12:11:19 PM
My credit card number wasn't actually compromised by the hacking (because I hadn't given Sony it) so would I even be able to get in on a class action lawsuit? I don't think it would make sense to sue them for the temporary inconvenience of PSN being down a few weeks. It was a big **** up for sure but they really don't personally owe me any damages.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 18, 2011, 12:24:58 PM
My credit card number wasn't actually compromised by the hacking (because I hadn't given Sony it) so would I even be able to get in on a class action lawsuit? I don't think it would make sense to sue them for the temporary inconvenience of PSN being down a few weeks. It was a big **** up for sure but they really don't personally owe me any damages.
Depends what the lawsuit was for. If it was for credit card information, then no. If it was for leaking personal information in general, then yes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 18, 2011, 01:28:09 PM
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f118/Cericme/9b3.jpg) Must be ran by PSN. :P: Now watch the Store is back
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 18, 2011, 02:19:00 PM
Looks like Sony F'd it up again http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430574 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=430574) (http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1212/1272549006_294f713d3c.jpg)
:( Prior to finding this website, a coworker and I were discussing why I was primarily a Playstation consumer, and he compared my loyalty to Playstation/Sony to a battered wife in an abused relationship....starting to feel like it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 18, 2011, 02:51:11 PM
LOL, you had me confused. I thought somehow my post got "hot-link blocked" and that pic popped up instead. which was really weird since I didnt' post any actual pics.....
I was so confused for about 3 seconds. LOL I had to scroll back up and remember what my post had looked like.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 18, 2011, 03:55:13 PM
My credit card number wasn't actually compromised by the hacking (because I hadn't given Sony it) so would I even be able to get in on a class action lawsuit? I don't think it would make sense to sue them for the temporary inconvenience of PSN being down a few weeks. It was a big **** up for sure but they really don't personally owe me any damages.
Your name, birthday, address, password, secret question/answer, and possibly telephone number or whatever else you gave to them was compromised. This is enough information to really screw with a person if someone were so inclined. I think the real damage may be the loss of the secret question/answer info, because many sites have similar questions/answers and a person may use that on many other sites. With that in hand and with all the other information available, someone could easily break into other accounts on other websites.
Title: Sony CEO Lashes Out at Critics of PSN Attack Response
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 19, 2011, 03:32:32 PM
There was no shortage of criticism over the amount of time it took Sony to inform the public of the PlayStation Network breach (http://www.1up.com/news/alert-playstation-network-account-data-compromised) that resulted in users' personal data being stolen. Sony claimed the intrusion was discovered "between April 17 and April 19," PSN was taken offline on April 20, and word didn't go out until April 26 that data might be at risk, despite days of speculation that such a scenario was possible. This was attributed to Sony only discovering the extent of the breach on April 25, but that didn't stop fans, Attorney Generals (http://www.1up.com/news/reports-credit-cards-sold-surface-fbi-dhs-involved-psn-investigation), and even Congress (http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/29/house-of-representatives-letter-questions-sony-over-attack/) from voicing concern over how long it took. Sony CEO Howard Stringer feels the company was actually very timely and he questions anyone who says otherwise. "This was an unprecedented situation," Stringer said today, Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/17/us-sony-hacker-idUSTRE74G41G20110517) reports. "Most of these breaches go unreported by companies. Forty-three percent notify victims within a month. We reported in a week. You're telling me my week wasn't fast enough?"
It sounds to me like Sony just wanted to keep the whole thing under wraps, but due to the severity of it and how long PSN was down it was impossible for them to cover it up. But it makes you wonder what other **** might have happened that they actually did cover up that we never even heard of
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 20, 2011, 02:52:47 AM
Ok, it looks like we finally have a timetable (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/34739/Sony_Tells_Dev_Partners_PlayStation_Store_To_Return_May_24.php) for the PSN Store's return:
May 24th - The Store goes back online and any content scheduled to release on April 26th (the first Tuesday after PSN went down) goes up on the store. Presumably, the "Welcome Back" content will become available around this time.
May 27th - The next batch of stuff originally scheduled to release May 3rd goes up on the store.
May 31st and June 3rd - 3 weeks of content to cover the remaining release gap (making the store finally up-to-date with releases) goes up on the store.
Some content (especially DLC) may be subject to some rescheduling.
Well, at least we now have a date to look forward to: sometime in the evening next Tuesday, because Sony never has had a set time when they've updated the store. :-[ Then again, L.A. Noire is awesome so I should be occupied for most of that period. Pity my L.A. Noire DLC won't be accessible till then.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 24, 2011, 12:37:46 PM
*sigh* Sony's Blog has been updated with information (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/24/playstation-network-scheduled-maintenance-today/) stating that at least parts of the network will be taken down for most of today to run "scheduled maintenance". They have also...finally...debunked the reports releasing last week that they told developers the PSN Store would be back up starting today.
You know, Sony, I've tolerated a lot of **** from you during this mess. But one would think that after all the deserved complaints you got about not telling us when our information was stolen, you MIGHT have somehow learned not to keep your customers in the dark. These reports have been circulating for a week, and you just let them be until the day the Store was supposed to return. I was planning on going out today and picking up some PSN cards to support the developers who have been royally screwed by you during this disaster, and it is only because I want to support them that I might still do that. I'm trying to wrap up play on L.A. Noire, but I can't because I can't download any of the DLC I'm entitled to, let alone buy the two other packs that were out and about.
**** you, Sony. I'm not mad that the store is still down. It's a major feature and douche-bag hackers are still going after Sony's sites, so by all means get it right before you bring it back up. I'm mad that you let us all think it would be back up today, and you had many opportunities to reveal the truth and chose not to. It's just like all that nonsense when the network was down where we had nothing but silence and vague promises of when it would be restored. Seriously, Sony, when all this is over you need to completely overhaul your PR department.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 24, 2011, 01:12:47 PM
*sigh* Sony's Blog has been updated with information (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/24/playstation-network-scheduled-maintenance-today/) stating that at least parts of the network will be taken down for most of today to run "scheduled maintenance". They have also...finally...debunked the reports releasing last week that they told developers the PSN Store would be back up starting today.
You know, Sony, I've tolerated a lot of **** from you during this mess. But one would think that after all the deserved complaints you got about not telling us when our information was stolen, you MIGHT have somehow learned not to keep your customers in the dark. These reports have been circulating for a week, and you just let them be until the day the Store was supposed to return. I was planning on going out today and picking up some PSN cards to support the developers who have been royally screwed by you during this disaster, and it is only because I want to support them that I might still do that. I'm trying to wrap up play on L.A. Noire, but I can't because I can't download any of the DLC I'm entitled to, let alone buy the two other packs that were out and about.
**** you, Sony. I'm not mad that the store is still down. It's a major feature and douche-bag hackers are still going after Sony's sites, so by all means get it right before you bring it back up. I'm mad that you let us all think it would be back up today, and you had many opportunities to reveal the truth and chose not to. It's just like all that nonsense when the network was down where we had nothing but silence and vague promises of when it would be restored. Seriously, Sony, when all this is over you need to completely overhaul your PR department.
Not to play the part of Sony Defense Force here, but did Sony ever say that the store was scheduled to be open today? I don't recall anyone but a handful of video game websites reporting that date. I don't necessarily blame Sony as much as I blame the news reporters for setting up false expectations for today being the re-launch date (although I'll admit it would have been better for Sony just to debunk these things the second they came out).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 24, 2011, 02:11:59 PM
Sony/BMG Greece and Sony Music Japan's sites were just hacked as well. All of those customer's information have now been leaked across the internet too.
I love it. Sony has had it coming for a looooong time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 24, 2011, 02:20:44 PM
Not to play the part of Sony Defense Force here, but did Sony ever say that the store was scheduled to be open today? I don't recall anyone but a handful of video game websites reporting that date. I don't necessarily blame Sony as much as I blame the news reporters for setting up false expectations for today being the re-launch date (although I'll admit it would have been better for Sony just to debunk these things the second they came out).
Sony never officially announced the store's date, but if you believe the reports we were seeing last week they were sending out emails and whatnot to publishers and developers informing them that the service would begin Store restoration today. Even if that weren't the case, though, Sony had a responsibility to debunk these reports last week when they were widely circulated on pretty much every major gaming website. Because they left it alone and didn't deny what looked to be a fairly legitimate information leak, now they're pissing people off who were looking forward to it and it's not like Sony is in the best position to do that. I just don't get Sony's PR department. They've never been good at controlling the flow of information given all their constant leaks over the years, but they can at very least stop rumors from dominating their news cycle.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 24, 2011, 03:00:10 PM
I think the hackers are gonna keep this up until the next quarterly report comes out and Sony estimates a Billion dollar loss on PSN being down alone.
I think this just ensures that OtherOS will not be a part of PS4.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 06:02:51 PM
I think this just ensures that OtherOS will not be a part of PS4.
I think that went without saying ever since they removed it from the Slim model. I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not. Unfortunately for Sony, if hackers have to do it the hard way and have to break or circumvent the firmware in order to make it happen then their effort will also benefit pirates.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 24, 2011, 06:23:23 PM
I think this just ensures that OtherOS will not be a part of PS4.
I think that went without saying ever since they removed it from the Slim model. I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not. Unfortunately for Sony, if hackers have to do it the hard way and have to break or circumvent the firmware in order to make it happen then their effort will also benefit pirates.
And that's when this conversation moves to the "Sony learns nothing" thread.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 24, 2011, 07:43:24 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Toruresu on May 24, 2011, 07:59:58 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Count me as one of the dumb people but, why do some people NEED to have Linux on everything that 'could run it'? I really don't get it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Mop it up on May 24, 2011, 08:05:12 PM
Why did someone climb Mt. Everest?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 08:42:04 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
That's the reason why Sony might as well bring the Other OS feature back on the PS4. If they allow people to install Linux by default then there is far less incentive for hackers to break the firmware. In the case of the PS3 it doesn't really matter now either way because people can install Linux now regardless of whether Sony officially allows it or not, although bringing it back would be a positive gesture which might go a long ways towards getting the hackers off their back. One reason Sony might not do this is arrogance because doing it would admit they were wrong for removing it and in some sense it would mean the hackers won, so I don't think Sony would do it for that reason, but really there's nothing else they would have to lose by bringing it back.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 08:50:49 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Count me as one of the dumb people but, why do some people NEED to have Linux on everything that 'could run it'? I really don't get it.
Because by installing Linux you can get stuff to do things it wasn't officially supposed to do. With Linux you can install and run a much better web browser on your ps3 than the one provided by Sony, and you can do spreadsheets and all the other things you normally can't do on a PS3 but can do on a computer. So that's the reason. Plus the PS3 is supposed to be some "super computer" (according to Sony anyway) which you can get for an affordable price.
As for installing Linux on wrist watches, coffee machines and microwaves, I guess people just do that for the challenge of it. In the case of the PS3 there are some practical uses for it, though.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Toruresu on May 24, 2011, 09:02:17 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Count me as one of the dumb people but, why do some people NEED to have Linux on everything that 'could run it'? I really don't get it.
Because by installing Linux you can get stuff to do things it wasn't officially supposed to do. With Linux you can install and run a much better web browser on your ps3 than the one provided by Sony, and you can do spreadsheets and all the other things you normally can't do on a PS3 but can do on a computer. So that's the reason. Plus the PS3 is supposed to be some "super computer" (according to Sony anyway) which you can get for an affordable price.
As for installing Linux on wrist watches, coffee machines and microwaves, I guess people just do that for the challenge of it. In the case of the PS3 there are some practical uses for it, though.
Practical use? Come on, I bet everyone that has a PS3 with Linux has a laptop/PC that can do all those things in a better way.
I'll take Mop it up's answer, "Just to do it" I guess.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 24, 2011, 09:07:30 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Count me as one of the dumb people but, why do some people NEED to have Linux on everything that 'could run it'? I really don't get it.
Because by installing Linux you can get stuff to do things it wasn't officially supposed to do. With Linux you can install and run a much better web browser on your ps3 than the one provided by Sony, and you can do spreadsheets and all the other things you normally can't do on a PS3 but can do on a computer. So that's the reason. Plus the PS3 is supposed to be some "super computer" (according to Sony anyway) which you can get for an affordable price.
As for installing Linux on wrist watches, coffee machines and microwaves, I guess people just do that for the challenge of it. In the case of the PS3 there are some practical uses for it, though.
Practical use? Come on, I bet everyone that has a PS3 with Linux has a laptop/PC that can do all those things in a better way.
I'll take Mop it up's answer, "Just to do it" I guess.
This is the biggest reason of why people would want to do it. (http://cacs.usc.edu/education/cs653/Buttari-SCOP3-UTK07.pdf)
TL:DR version: Educators and individuals could use a cluster of Playstation 3s to make supercomputers as powerful as multi-millon dollar ones at the fraction of the cost.
Not to say the hacking community shouldn't have the right to use their hardware the way they choose, but this is by far the most impressive usage of otherOS.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Toruresu on May 24, 2011, 09:13:09 PM
I'm sure hackers WILL find a way to get Linux working on a PS4, though, Other OS or not.
That goes without saying. I have Linux running on my DS and my Dreamcast... I'm kind of surprised that I haven't found a way of installing it on my toaster oven yet.
Count me as one of the dumb people but, why do some people NEED to have Linux on everything that 'could run it'? I really don't get it.
Because by installing Linux you can get stuff to do things it wasn't officially supposed to do. With Linux you can install and run a much better web browser on your ps3 than the one provided by Sony, and you can do spreadsheets and all the other things you normally can't do on a PS3 but can do on a computer. So that's the reason. Plus the PS3 is supposed to be some "super computer" (according to Sony anyway) which you can get for an affordable price.
As for installing Linux on wrist watches, coffee machines and microwaves, I guess people just do that for the challenge of it. In the case of the PS3 there are some practical uses for it, though.
Practical use? Come on, I bet everyone that has a PS3 with Linux has a laptop/PC that can do all those things in a better way.
I'll take Mop it up's answer, "Just to do it" I guess.
This is the biggest reason of why people would want to do it. (http://cacs.usc.edu/education/cs653/Buttari-SCOP3-UTK07.pdf)
TL:DR version: Educators and individuals could use a cluster of Playstation 3s to make supercomputers as powerful as multi-millon dollar ones at the fraction of the cost.
Not to say the hacking community shouldn't have the right to use their hardware the way they choose, but this is by far the most impressive usage of otherOS.
Well darn. That seems smart, too smart for me! :P
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 24, 2011, 10:15:51 PM
As much as I'd like more functionality, Sony really shouldn't let this incident change their mind about Other OS. You don't negotiate with terrorists. If they set the precedent that they'll give in in a situation like this, not only will it not prevent future attacks, it will make them more likely.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 24, 2011, 10:41:04 PM
LOL at terrorists.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 24, 2011, 10:49:18 PM
As much as I'd like more functionality, Sony really shouldn't let this incident change their mind about Other OS. You don't negotiate with terrorists. If they set the precedent that they'll give in in a situation like this, not only will it not prevent future attacks, it will make them more likely.
I agree, though I would more compare them to stereotypical Chicago gangsters running a "protection" racket ("Give us our Other OS and the ability to hack whatever we want, or we'll break your legs. Capish?!"). Or maybe that's all the L.A. Noire I've been playing lately. ;) If Sony caves in to hackers and gives them what they want, it sets a bad precedence in the industry: that hackers can hold video game companies hostage anytime they wish. If I'm Nintendo or Microsoft, I have to be really fearful of Sony giving in to these guys for fear of them coming after my company next (for example, going after Nintendo for region-locking the 3DS). Companies have to protect their intellectual property and show that they control their platforms. Sony could have handled their dealings with the hackers better, but I don't see how they can back out now without severe repercussions in the future.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 24, 2011, 10:59:58 PM
Hackers aren't some group that work together to hold companies hostage. That's not how they work. They rarely even work together. It's just that the internet makes it seem like they do. And don't even point out Anonymous. I think Morari summed them up quite clearly.
They are not an entity. They are a bunch of different people from all around the world with different goals and different ambitions. In this instance, Sony became a lightning rod for some of them because of their blatant disregard to consumers. That's it.
When GeoHot cracked it, they rejoiced and everything went back to normal. They worried about his trial, but it was an expected outcome. These are the same people that filed the lawsuit against Sony that is still in court.
Now other hackers think its funny so their goal (which was never to get back Linux) is to **** with Sony. Simple as that. None of this was planned. This isn't an intelligent system of people. It's just people.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 24, 2011, 11:06:42 PM
There had to be at least some level of coordination to take down PSN. Also, anyone who would be willing to attack a major network for fairly trivial reasons is a terrorist in my book.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 24, 2011, 11:09:19 PM
Maybe...
But Maybe not...
What if they were simply trying to show the world how easily it was to exploit the system? And as a result of their actions, we are getting a much more secure network?
That could be seen as a trivial reason, but in a perfect world, people would be applauding them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 24, 2011, 11:26:51 PM
As much as I'd like more functionality, Sony really shouldn't let this incident change their mind about Other OS. You don't negotiate with terrorists. If they set the precedent that they'll give in in a situation like this, not only will it not prevent future attacks, it will make them more likely.
I don't have much hope of Sony restoring Other OS because of the PSN hacking, but you have to admit that even if PSN were never hacked the odds of them restoring Other OS were still pretty much nil. So that presents a no-win scenario where the Linux enthusiasts weren't going to win no matter what. Sony may not be willing to negotiate with "terrorists", but they weren't going to negotiate anyway. If nothing else, at least the "terrorist" attack on PSN brought that back into the spotlight and made it clear that people are still unhappy about it being taken away.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 24, 2011, 11:56:02 PM
No one even has any idea if it was a "They".
For all we know, it was one pimply faced teen in his mom's basement who was mad because SONY hasn't released Final Fantasy 7 HD yet.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 25, 2011, 09:29:08 AM
Hackers aren't some group that work together to hold companies hostage. That's not how they work. They rarely even work together. It's just that the internet makes it seem like they do. And don't even point out Anonymous. I think Morari summed them up quite clearly.
They are not an entity. They are a bunch of different people from all around the world with different goals and different ambitions. In this instance, Sony became a lightning rod for some of them because of their blatant disregard to consumers. That's it.
When GeoHot cracked it, they rejoiced and everything went back to normal. They worried about his trial, but it was an expected outcome. These are the same people that filed the lawsuit against Sony that is still in court.
Now other hackers think its funny so their goal (which was never to get back Linux) is to **** with Sony. Simple as that. None of this was planned. This isn't an intelligent system of people. It's just people.
Which makes it more important to stand strong against them because they are not an organized group just a bunch of people who are having the same idea at the same time. Eventually they will lose interest as the Risk to Reward ratio gets lower and go away like bullies.
I'm all for holding the responsible party/parties responsible, but I don't believe this should become a vigilante witch hunt against all hackers.
If this escalates any further, though, that's exactly what will happen and you know what? The hackers will have brought it upon themselves, and I'll have even less pity for them then than I do already. And given that everyone's now looking at hackers every time something on these systems goes wrong (like how the Xbox Live Marketplace is down today (http://www.destructoid.com/xbox-live-marketplace-goes-down-zomg-h-x0rz--201980.phtml) for allegedly "maintenance issues", just like the PSN was down for "maintenance issues"), I don't think that day is too far off. If this is going to stop, the hackers are going to have to police themselves because realistically they are probably the only ones who can.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 25, 2011, 02:43:27 PM
I think you should thank the hackers or hacker, Broodwars. Who knows what their motivation was, but they showed you that the company you trusted took that responsibility lightly. Sure you had to reissue a credit card and went without the service for a month, but it made you skeptical, which you should always be. Many people in this day n' age are too complacent with their information. This was a slap for them and for Sony back to reality.
Furthermore, the lessons learned the hard way allow people who watched to learn it the easy way.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 25, 2011, 03:01:18 PM
I think you should thank the hackers or hacker, Broodwars. Who knows what their motivation was, but they showed you that the company you trusted took that responsibility lightly. Sure you had to reissue a credit card and went without the service for a month, but it made you skeptical, which you should always be. Many people in this day in age are too complacent with their information. This was a slap for them and for Sony back to reality.
Furthermore, the lessons learned the hard way allow people who watched to learn it the easy way.
Though I will argue Information is suppose to be used. When its no longer useful its no longer valuable.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 25, 2011, 05:04:00 PM
Because by installing Linux you can get stuff to do things it wasn't officially supposed to do. With Linux you can install and run a much better web browser on your ps3 than the one provided by Sony, and you can do spreadsheets and all the other things you normally can't do on a PS3 but can do on a computer. So that's the reason. Plus the PS3 is supposed to be some "super computer" (according to Sony anyway) which you can get for an affordable price.
As for installing Linux on wrist watches, coffee machines and microwaves, I guess people just do that for the challenge of it. In the case of the PS3 there are some practical uses for it, though.
Technically by installing Linux on your PS3, you can get it to do stuff that it WAS (and is) supposed to do.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 25, 2011, 11:41:23 PM
The hackers will have brought it upon themselves, and I'll have even less pity for them then than I do already.
So, one guy might have hacked PSN, yet all hackers brought it upon themselves? I like your way of thinking.
Let's start rounding up large groups of people based on the crimes of a few people within that group.
This is an entire community of people who think they are above the laws that society has set down for everyone to follow, basically doing whatever they want because they know there's such a small chance that they'll ever face punishment. Following the letter of the laws on the books, many of these folks (and I have no issues with the homebrew community, so they're fine) should have been dealt with a long time ago if we were serious about enforcing them. Given that we can't even manage to deal with theatrical punks like Anonymous, how can we possibly hope to deal with the real threats like those who hacked PSN or perform far worse forms of cyber crime?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on May 26, 2011, 01:52:45 AM
Hackers aren't necessarily a "community."
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 26, 2011, 01:59:38 AM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 26, 2011, 01:15:44 PM
The Escapist's Extra Credits show has put out a pretty good episode (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/3306-NOT-a-Security-Episode) on the PSN hack and what it means going forward.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on May 26, 2011, 03:07:37 PM
I have to pretty much disagree with the first half of that episode. Yes banks get robbed, but when was the last time a bank vault was cleaned out without resulting in the criminal getting arrested? Outside of movies and ages pass like the great train robberies and what not, never. Sure robbers these days get whatever is in the till, but modern, properly secured banks have made it so costly to rob, that's all they get. They then have a set of automatic protocols to follow to help ensure no one gets hurt, robbers included. This is also the basis of how internet security works. To make it too hard or long or expensive to acquire. So yeah, given the facts and the continued lapses worldwide on Sony's failure to even consider basic security ramifications, you have to blame the Sony as much as the hacker(s).
The second half pretty much sums up how much of a cock up Sony has made so far during the recovery. I have no doubt this will become a case study into how NOT to do things.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 26, 2011, 04:51:28 PM
My, what a shock: the same person that always mass-smites me whenever I state an opinion against hackers is mass-smiting me again. ::)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 26, 2011, 04:58:37 PM
If I were to rob a bank, you better believe one of the steps would be to cause a major distraction on the opposite side of town.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 26, 2011, 08:59:25 PM
My, what a shock: the same person that always mass-smites me whenever I state an opinion against hackers is mass-smiting me again. ::)
I hear you... I used to be in positive territory but someone (I don't know who and I'm not going to make accusations without proof) got me to where I am now. Rules should be in place where you can only smite the same person once a day, instead of once every hour. In theory, someone could log in every hour and smite someone over and over again 24 times in a day. If the smiting were limited to just once a day then maybe after a few days the smiter would realize how childish they are about the whole thing and knock it off. But even if they don't, at least that way it would basically take them a month to do the mass smiting which they can now pull off in a single day.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 26, 2011, 09:28:11 PM
If someone would be so kind, I'll gladly take some smiting!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 26, 2011, 09:31:04 PM
Thank you to whomever changed broodwars' title. As soon as I saw him whining about smites I went to change it, but I saw some kind person I would assume UncleBob did it for me.
Remember, if you complain about something as pointless and stupid as the karma system, your title will be changed, and, just to rub it in, I will smite you.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 26, 2011, 09:36:03 PM
Waahhhh! Someone keeps smiting me!!!!11!1!!!1*one* I deserve to have 1000000000+ karma!!!!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 26, 2011, 09:41:38 PM
Thank you to whomever changed broodwars' title. As soon as I saw him whining about smites I went to change it, but I saw some kind person I would assume UncleBob did it for me.
Remember, if you complain about something as pointless and stupid as the karma system, your title will be changed, and, just to rub it in, I will smite you.
Yes, by all means enforce your inane caste system. Whatever. ::) The forums were far better before the karma system, IMO.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 26, 2011, 09:47:31 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 26, 2011, 10:01:38 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Sorry, but I get enough of stupid popularity contests in real life without having them in my internet entertainment as well. I'm just really curious what benefit there is in giving people on the internet even more of a way to be a jerk.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 26, 2011, 10:11:45 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Sorry, but I get enough of stupid popularity contests in real life without having them in my internet entertainment as well.
You must be losing a lot of those contests to be so sore about this one...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 26, 2011, 10:12:27 PM
Is being funny a benefit?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 26, 2011, 10:13:41 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Sorry, but I get enough of stupid popularity contests in real life without having them in my internet entertainment as well. I'm just really curious what benefit there is in giving people on the internet even more of a way to be a jerk.
All kidding aside, I do think a ridiculous outlier of positive or negative ratings (+-200 or more) can make it easier to point out people that might make more objectionable statements. Granted, overall this community has been pretty positive, and despite his rating and extreme PC bias, I haven't experienced much negativity from Morari.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 26, 2011, 10:22:00 PM
I think I'm the exception. In the small amount of time I've been here, I think I've said the craziest things.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 26, 2011, 10:22:20 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Sorry, but I get enough of stupid popularity contests in real life without having them in my internet entertainment as well.
You must be losing a lot of those contests to be so sore about this one...
That reminds me, how is being a PC gamer these days knowing that there's no reason for any developer outside of Valve to ever support the platform due to piracy? :P: : : :
The karma system really bugs me because it detracts from what used to be my favorite website. There was generally decent discussion and good gaming all around. Then for some reason, the site administrators decided it would be great to instate a system that enables the worst of the posters here to do what they do best: be a jerk, because you know...the internet really needed another way to facilitate that. I protest the system in my own way by not applauding or smiting anyone, but it's really getting tiresome having my numerical internet reputation defaced every time someone doesn't like that I don't toe the line.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 26, 2011, 10:23:32 PM
That reminds me, how is being a PC gamer these days knowing that there's no reason for any developer outside of Valve to ever support the platform due to piracy? :P: :
Come on now... It's going great, outside of the lack of fighting games. Of course, you know as well as I do that piracy is only a scapegoat. It's a heck of lot easier to mod and pirate console games in most cases.
Granted, overall this community has been pretty positive, and despite his rating and extreme PC bias, I haven't experienced much negativity from Morari.
To be fair, most of those negatives aren't legit. Unlike broodwars however, I don't much care either way. ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 26, 2011, 10:28:56 PM
That reminds me, how is being a PC gamer these days knowing that there's no reason for any developer outside of Valve to ever support the platform due to piracy? :P: : :
Come on now... It's going great, outside of the lack of fighting games. Of course, you know as well as I do that piracy is only a scapegoat. It's a heck of lot easier to mod and pirate console games in most cases.
Isn't Super Street Fighter 4: Arcade Edition or whatever coming out for PC?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on May 26, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
It's coming out based on GFWL. It might as well not come out at all.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on May 26, 2011, 10:46:29 PM
It's coming out next month. I'm looking forward to it, GFW or not. The original SFIV only used GFW to manage save files, which wasn't too inconvenient. Of course, this time it's a 24/7 internet connection. I'll just get a crack for my copy pronto and not worry about it ever again. :)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on May 26, 2011, 10:52:43 PM
It's coming out based on GFWL. It might as well not come out at all.
Also, always-on DRM similar to Assassin's Creed II (PC) (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6315525/super-street-fighter-iv-arcade-edition-slapped-with-always-on-pc-drm?tag=newstop%3Btitle%3B7) I thought PC gaming was through with this. Alas, no. As for GFWL, it seems to be okay nowadays unless you find matchmaking despicable due to latency. The few PC games I have that are Live-enabled haven't had anything objectionable that was outside the norm of other PC games. Then again, most of those Live-enabled games are single player only.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 26, 2011, 11:02:51 PM
You would have a point if the karma system meant anything at all. Nobody takes it seriously except people like you and Chozo Ghost, who keep bitching about it for some stupid reason. I agree with you that the karma system doesn't have any benefits, and I've argued in the past that we should scrap it, but it really isn't hurting anything, and getting all pissed about a popularity contest on an internet forum is really childish.
Sorry, but I get enough of stupid popularity contests in real life without having them in my internet entertainment as well.
You must be losing a lot of those contests to be so sore about this one...
That reminds me, how is being a PC gamer these days knowing that there's no reason for any developer outside of Valve to ever support the platform due to piracy? :P: : : :
The karma system really bugs me because it detracts from what used to be my favorite website. There was generally decent discussion and good gaming all around. Then for some reason, the site administrators decided it would be great to instate a system that enables the worst of the posters here to do what they do best: be a jerk, because you know...the internet really needed another way to facilitate that. I protest the system in my own way by not applauding or smiting anyone, but it's really getting tiresome having my numerical internet reputation defaced every time someone doesn't like that I don't toe the line.
Give me one example of anyone here ever bringing up your score as a way of deriding you. Like I said, nobody takes it at all seriously, except for the people who bitch about it. I don't think it offers any benefit, but I also don't think it has any significant downside, apart from all the pointless bitching.
IGNORE IT. Nobody cares about the score, and they'd care about the score even less if people like you stopped complaining about it and bringing it to the forefront of discussion.
Also, get this back on the topic of Sony, and keep it civil. If I have to lock another one of these I'll be taking more action than just closing the thread. If you go far off-topic or get nasty, you do so at your own risk.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 26, 2011, 11:07:23 PM
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 27, 2011, 01:05:06 AM
Can I request to have my negative karma set to whatever the maximum allowable negative value is? That way there will no longer be any point to anyone smiting me because it is already as low as it can be.
BTW, isn't the karma thing the reason TJ Spyke is no longer an active posting member? So saying it doesn't do any harm is false, because its already caused one formerly active member to stop posting. Saying it doesn't matter is like saying verbal bullying doesn't matter, but there have been people who have committed suicide because of verbal bullying.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 27, 2011, 01:16:06 AM
Darwinism is a bitch. No one ever said it wasn't it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 27, 2011, 01:39:36 AM
BTW, isn't the karma thing the reason TJ Spyke is no longer an active posting member?
Wow, really? I had been wondering what had happened to him.
To get things back on track, Sony recently reaffirmed (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2011/05/26/sony_psn_and_ngp/) in yesterday's earnings briefing that PSN was expected to be "fully restored" (i.e. the Shop) by the end of the month. What disturbs me is this quote:
Quote
The company said that its target of full service restoration for both PSN and Qriocity by the end of this month remains unchanged. Even if it does end up missing the target, the delay would be by just a few days.
Well doesn't that make me feel all nice, warm, and fuzzy? After a month of vague "just a few more days/one more week" promises, Sony's promising that even if they miss their promised May 31st relaunch date, they'll only be late "just a few more days". That's a promise you can certainly take to the bank with this company. :-\ So, anyone think we'll have the Store back up by E3? ::)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 27, 2011, 01:44:49 AM
Wow, really? I had been wondering what had happened to him.
I honestly don't know the reason why he left, but I do remember he wasn't happy about how often he was smited on here so that's a possible reason.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 27, 2011, 01:48:37 AM
I want to make it very clear that the following is entirely my opinion, simply as a regular of these forums, and not in any way related to my status as a staff member.
If you're the kind of person who gets worked up about something as stupid and meaningless as the karma system to the point that you stop posting here because of it, I don't want you to be posting on these forums.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ymeegod on May 27, 2011, 02:21:49 AM
Don't look at me, my post count is still messed up. It's gone down again?
But yeah, I don't mind getting smited but I would like to know who and why.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on May 27, 2011, 04:27:06 AM
I don't believe the Karma system was the singular reason for the disappearance of TJ Spyke. His departure was building for a while and I would know having butted heads against him time an again. It got to the point that he would defend ridiculous indefensible positions, at which most people started dismissing him out of hand and started outright ignoring or taking him apart argumentatively at every turn. He then tried to manipulate people by handing out smites/applauds so people would start thinking his way, something he tried to do with me. A good number of smites I believe are from him.
Of course it didn't work since I don't see it anymore than an amusing diversion and a way to detect passive aggressive people. TJ Spyke had finally alienated himself from the forums when even Broodwars couldn't agree with him in principle given how extreme of a position he placed himself in. After that a significant number of forum goers called him out for trolling and we haven't seen him since.
Simply put he pushed and we pushed back, he didn't like it and left. I can't say I miss him given how increasingly unreasonable his positions were.
Also naming him the Sony boot licker didn't help.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on May 27, 2011, 09:59:40 AM
Wait, what unreasonable positions? In the small amount of time I was here before he left, he didn't seem that unreasonable to me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 27, 2011, 10:22:43 AM
Hey Oblivion, are you a fan of Elder Scrolls IV? Is that where your username comes from?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on May 27, 2011, 11:10:22 AM
Wait, what unreasonable positions? In the small amount of time I was here before he left, he didn't seem that unreasonable to me.
I was a lurker for a while on this site when I started listening to RFN. There is a locked forum called "Sony getting hit Hard lately (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?topic=16636.3225)" where I recall him saying some pretty silly things about all hackers being pirates, the DMCA being just fine as-is, etc. It's not so much that he held those positions as much that he was pretty antagonistic with some of his responses to other people and was pretty extreme with his rationalization. He was the yin to Morari's yang.
You can check the later pages of that thread to get a more clear picture of the kind of arguments that occured.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 27, 2011, 11:33:21 AM
It looks like Sony's dealt with whatever issues they were having with the Japanese Government, because according to Sony PSN (except for the store) will finally be returning to Asia tomorrow (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/27/psn-service-coming-back-in-asia-tomorrow-welcome-back-package-d/). Like every other region, they have their own Welcome Back package. While their PS3 free games list looks considerably weaker than the one for Europe and North America, they do seem to have a better PSP list.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on May 27, 2011, 12:25:08 PM
It looks like Sony's dealt with whatever issues they were having with the Japanese Government, because according to Sony PSN (except for the store) will finally be returning to Asia tomorrow (http://www.joystiq.com/2011/05/27/psn-service-coming-back-in-asia-tomorrow-welcome-back-package-d/). Like every other region, they have their own Welcome Back package. While their PS3 free games list looks considerably weaker than the one for Europe and North America, they do seem to have a better PSP list.
I will not personally consider PSN up till the Shop is up.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 27, 2011, 12:32:20 PM
I will not personally consider PSN up till the Shop is up.
Well, I was able to play Portal 2 co-op online (and can go online with Killzone 3 whenever I want), so as far as I'm concerned it's restored in North America. I really want the store up as well, though, given that there are some cool games on the various services that we should have gotten the last month (like Beyond Good & Evil HD) and I want to finally be able to redeem my L.A. Noire DLC codes.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Mop it up on May 28, 2011, 04:15:52 PM
Don't look at me, my post count is still messed up. It's gone down again?
This post makes me wonder if you realize that you have two accounts, one with an uppercase Y (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=1513) and one with a lowercase Y. (http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=19689)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SlighTlyKauLField on May 28, 2011, 05:25:45 PM
any word on when the psn store will be up for N/A? What games are you guys going to download for free? I'm thinking Infamous and Dead Nation.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 28, 2011, 06:19:41 PM
any word on when the psn store will be up for N/A? What games are you guys going to download for free? I'm thinking Infamous and Dead Nation.
If Sony's to be believed (hah!), the Store's supposed to be up by the end of the month, which would be this coming Tuesday. My picks will probably be Infamous and LittleBigPlanet on PS3, as well as LittleBigPlanet and Killzone Liberation on PSP.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 28, 2011, 07:10:36 PM
This is offically the funniest thread on the forums. I think SONY should implement a Karma system on PSN, then people could cry a river about having low Karma and leave PSN...because getting a low ranking is just like getting bullied on the internet. We all know that people in real life first check to find out what your internet handle is, go on the nintendoworldreport.com forums, see what your score is, and then form an opinion about you based solely upon that information. This is why I can't find a job, everyone makes fun of me in real life, and my wife and kids left me. Look at my score (it's over negative ten thousand), IT MEANS SO MUCH, not just to me, but to everyone!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 28, 2011, 07:12:13 PM
This is offically the funniest thread on the forums. I think SONY should implement a Karma system on PSN, then people could cry a river about having low Karma and leave PSN...
Actually, there already is such a thing with the Trophy system. And on that field of battle, I'm pretty confident that I own you all! ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 28, 2011, 07:17:48 PM
Actually, there already is such a thing with the Trophy system.
Actually, no, its no where near the same thing at all. Like you've said before, the Karma on here is a popularity contest. Trophies aren't based on your popularity at all, and as a matter of fact it would stand to reason that someone who is incredibly unpopular with little or no social life would probably have more trophies than a popular socially active person.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 29, 2011, 01:26:33 AM
Actually, there already is such a thing with the Trophy system.
Actually, no, its no where near the same thing at all. Like you've said before, the Karma on here is a popularity contest. Trophies aren't based on your popularity at all, and as a matter of fact it would stand to reason that someone who is incredibly unpopular with little or no social life would probably have more trophies than a popular socially active person.
I meant it in the sense that it's a system of comparison that some chose to engage in and others ignore altogether, though one that's indicative of your own dedication and skill rather than what others think of you/how others feel like trolling you. That's why your Sony Online ID "levels up" as you obtain trophies, and you can compare them with your online friends. As it is based on your own merits, I naturally prefer these achievement systems to something like our current karma system.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 29, 2011, 06:01:44 PM
Hey, Sony can't seem to manage to get their online marketplace back up and running, but that pales in comparison to the most important announcement (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/29/playstation-fans-watch-e3-online-try-to-win-your-way-in/) of all: The Playstation Blog's going to live-streaming the Sony E3 Press Conference! What? What do you mean that's completely redundant when GameTrailers will probably do it better like they have every year? Besides, if I want to watch an official version of the conference, I'll just download the recording off the PSN like I have the last few yea- OH WAIT! :-X
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 29, 2011, 07:59:02 PM
I've said it before, but I'm bitching about it again: I have these download vouchers for LA Noire and Dante's Inferno and currently no idea when I'm going to get to use them. End of the month? Sure, but I wish Sony wasn't waiting until the last second.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 29, 2011, 08:02:29 PM
I've said it before, but I'm bitching about it again: I have these download vouchers for LA Noire and Dante's Inferno and currently no idea when I'm going to get to use them. End of the month? Sure, but I wish Sony wasn't waiting until the last second.
Yeah, I just bought LA Noire, and it was an easy choice in regards to the system to get it for. Sony has been bumbling this from the start. It is to the point now that there is no excuse for something like the store to not be up. People are not getting what they paid for or what was advertised when they purchased a game with content.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 30, 2011, 02:08:19 AM
Hey, Sony can't seem to manage to get their online marketplace back up and running, but that pales in comparison to the most important announcement (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/29/playstation-fans-watch-e3-online-try-to-win-your-way-in/) of all: The Playstation Blog's going to live-streaming the Sony E3 Press Conference!
Now watch the hackers DDoS the playstation blog during the conference.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 02:10:59 AM
Hey, Sony can't seem to manage to get their online marketplace back up and running, but that pales in comparison to the most important announcement (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/29/playstation-fans-watch-e3-online-try-to-win-your-way-in/) of all: The Playstation Blog's going to live-streaming the Sony E3 Press Conference!
Now watch the hackers DDoS the playstation blog during the conference.
The hackers probably won't need to bother. 10 minutes into the stream, the site will probably crash from server overload. This is the Blog's first attempt at live-streaming the press conference. I've seen Gametrailers' and IGN's live-streams crap out from server overload, and they've been doing this for years. I can't see this going well for a first-time team on a blog that's such an easy target.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 30, 2011, 02:18:38 AM
I just think it would be funny if the store is still down during E3, or if it comes back up the hackers bring it down again. What would Sony have to say during the conference if PSN were still down/down again?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 02:24:20 AM
I just think it would be funny if the store is still down during E3, or if it comes back up the hackers bring it down again. What would Sony have to say during the conference if PSN were still down/down again?
I actually made a comment about that on this particular PS Blog Entry. You have some pretty extreme Sony fanboys there clinging to the May 31st restoration date, but I just don't buy it considering we're now less than 2 days away from that and there's still no word from Sony (not to mention that fiasco last week with Sony not refuting the May 24th restoration date until the day of). Given all the silence, I think the store still not being up by the Sony Press Conference is a rather annoying and increasingly-likely possibility. I want my L.A. Noire case DLC and Sly Cooper cane in Infamous 2! :cool;
As for what Sony would say, I imagine a Kevin Butler ad with him as the VP of Retail Shopping/Marketing. ::)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 02:30:37 AM
By the way, speaking of the Playstation Blog, check out this gem of a quote from Jeff Rubenstein (presumably the person who updates the blog) in response to all the questions about the Store on that last article (page 2 of the comments, 5/29/2011 1:51 PM):
Quote
When we have a 100% locked in uptime for the store, we’ll tell you. Really, honestly, there’s not much else to say, is there?
It's nice to see that Sony's PR hasn't gotten any better after a month of keeping their customers in the dark and showing disinterest for their concerns. Consistency!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 30, 2011, 02:35:55 AM
They probably figure whatever Sony fans that were going to jump ship have probably already done so and at this point whoever is left is probably not going to leave so appeasing them doesn't matter.
That said, that Blog entry was very brusque.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 02:42:26 AM
They probably figure whatever Sony fans that were going to jump ship have probably already done so and at this point whoever is left is probably not going to leave so appeasing them doesn't matter.
That said, that Blog entry was very terse.
True, though it can certainly affect my purchasing decisions. I just recently picked up Killzone 3, and I rather loved the game so I'm more inclined to check out other Sony shooters. I'm kind of interested in SOCOM 4, a game in a series I've never played but looks kind of interesting. Despite my not caring much for Sony as a company, I do really enjoy gaming on my PS3 so I'm not going anywhere, but it does mean that I might choose to not pick up borderline games like SOCOM 4 if Sony decides to be like this, or maybe I'll purchase it used so Sony gets no cash out of it (sadly, neither would the developers). Maybe I'll completely ignore Resistance 3, especially because I didn't enjoy Resistance 2 all that much. I could cut back my PSN purchases, or shift them to XBL entirely since I own all 3 consoles.
There are any number of things that PS3 fans can do to punish Sony that doesn't involve doing anything illegal or jumping ship to Microsoft. They would be wise to not throw away what little goodwill their fanbase has left for them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 30, 2011, 01:07:27 PM
Looks like Sony won't be catching a break anytime soon. Don't expect to see a live stream come E3 from any Sony source.
LulzSec, which has previously taken responsibility for hacking Sony BMG’s Japanese website, has promised more attacks against Sony soon. “Phase 1 will begin within the next day,” the LulzSec twitter feed read just before announcing the PBS hack, following up on its warning from Friday: “We’re working on another Sony operation…it’s the beginning of the end for Sony.”
They don't say what they are gonna do, but the most public way to hurt them right now is to mess with their press coverage during E3, make headlines during E3 and prevent Sony from capitalizing off of E3, so I just assume any Conference coverage won't be coming from any official Sony source.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 30, 2011, 01:11:18 PM
I said before (probably in this thread) that I think it would be funny if someone were to run up to Kaz Hirai during E3 while he's making a speech and pull his pants down in front of everyone, or throw a pie at him or something... that would be funnier and take more balls than hacking from the safety of your parent's basement. If you want to embarrass Sony, that's a way to do it without screwing with innocent consumers and developers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 30, 2011, 05:50:03 PM
Ten cents says that the haxxors somehow actually mess with the footage being displayed on stage.
Forget giant enemy crabs... giant penis!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 05:53:28 PM
LulzSec, which has previously taken responsibility for hacking Sony BMG’s Japanese website, has promised more attacks against Sony soon. “Phase 1 will begin within the next day,” the LulzSec twitter feed read just before announcing the PBS hack, following up on its warning from Friday: “We’re working on another Sony operation…it’s the beginning of the end for Sony.”
They don't say what they are gonna do, but the most public way to hurt them right now is to mess with their press coverage during E3, make headlines during E3 and prevent Sony from capitalizing off of E3, so I just assume any Conference coverage won't be coming from any official Sony source.
So, anyone still saying these hackers aren't terrorists? This bunch hacked into PBS' servers and messed with stuff because they didn't like a broadcast on Wikileaks, and then they warned PBS not to run contrary to their views again. I hope PBS runs another anti-hacker broadcast just to show these scum that they can't be intimidated.
As for the supposed attack on Sony, as Chozo said these hackers aren't just scum, they're pitiful cowards. It's easy to put on such bravado when you don't think you'll get caught and punished. I hope for all our sakes that whatever security Sony's been putting into their infrastructure now holds.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on May 30, 2011, 05:56:55 PM
So, anyone still saying these hackers aren't terrorists? This bunch hacked into PBS' servers and messed with stuff [...]
Source that these are the same people?
Quote
As for the supposed attack on Sony, as Chozo said these hackers aren't just scum, they're pitiful cowards. It's easy to put on such bravado when you don't think you'll get caught and punished.
History is full of people who use the dark of the night to shield their identity for both good and bad reasons.
I mean, I don't see you including you name and phone number in your posts calling these hackers names. :D
Quote
I hope for all our sakes that whatever security Sony's been putting into their infrastructure now holds.
"All our sakes"? Doesn't matter one way or another to me.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 30, 2011, 06:01:46 PM
I mean, I don't see you including you name and phone number in your posts calling these hackers names. :D
If these hackers are anywhere near as smart as they think they are, they don't need me to post such information. They'd already have it. And if this batch is the same that hacked PSN, they already do.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 30, 2011, 06:07:32 PM
So, anyone still saying these hackers aren't terrorists? This bunch hacked into PBS' servers and messed with stuff [...]
Source that these are the same people?
I can confirm that it's the same people. Give a few and I'll provide a link.
edit: I already provided the link..... the excerpt I posted was just the Sony part of it, the actual story was about the PBS hack.
Nothing out there proves it's the same people though. If I put up a thread in the Funhouse saying "We here at NWR are responsible for the hacks into Sony", does that mean that you, bloodwars and Mop it up were involved?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 06:10:45 PM
I mean, I don't see you including you name and phone number in your posts calling these hackers names. :D
If these hackers are anywhere near as smart as they think they are, they don't need me to post such information. They'd already have it.
So, the hackers are cowards for hiding behind the anonymity of the internet when launching their attacks... what does that make you?
My being on the internet and being anti-hacker isn't illegal, and withholding information that could be used by the vermin of the internet against me isn't cowardice but basic common sense. Hackers like these routinely violate the law, commit harm large and small, and publicly dare their targets to stop their illegal activity. So yeah, they're cowardly scum who should be left to rot in prison for a decade or two if they're ever caught. If you have a problem with a company or organization, there are lawful and peaceful ways to show your displeasure that don't hurt millions of innocent customers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on May 30, 2011, 06:12:19 PM
The lesson that needed to be taught has been taught. Attacking Sony again would undermine any good intentions.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 06:15:11 PM
The lesson that needed to be taught has been taught. Attacking Sony again would undermine any good intentions.
If they are really benevolent hackers that hack to show their targets where they are vulnerable(though this would be an extreme way of doing that) and encourage them to beef up security, that is true.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 30, 2011, 06:18:14 PM
I mean, I don't see you including you name and phone number in your posts calling these hackers names. :D
If these hackers are anywhere near as smart as they think they are, they don't need me to post such information. They'd already have it.
So, the hackers are cowards for hiding behind the anonymity of the internet when launching their attacks... what does that make you?
My being on the internet and being anti-hacker isn't illegal, and withholding information that could be used by the vermin of the internet against me isn't cowardice but basic common sense. Hackers like these routinely violate the law, commit harm large and small, and publicly dare their targets to stop their illegal activity. So yeah, they're cowardly scum who should be left to rot in prison for a decade or two if they're ever caught.
Not to get too political here (more history than politics), but are you familiar with the Tea Party (Not the new-age one, but the Boston one)? Guys dressed up as natives, attacked cargo ships and dumped tea in the harbor to protest Britain's laws.
What they did was destructive, illegal and anonymous.
Yet, these people are typically considered heroes.
It simply matters what side of the fence you're on.
And you're completely correct - you're not doing anything illegal. Which means you don't have law enforcement agencies from all over the world looking for you, like these guys do.
You get to sit behind the safety of your computer and hurl insults and pop shots at large groups of people you don't like because you disagree with the methods of a few of them. And, chances are, they'll never even know because they likely don't even come to NWR.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 30, 2011, 06:22:03 PM
You get to sit behind the safety of your computer and hurl insults and pop shots at large groups of people you don't like because you disagree with the methods of a few of them.
I think the internet has consistently shown us all that there is no such thing as "safety of your computer" with all the hackers, thieves, viruses, and malware that roam it unless you are the one perpetrating the threat.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 30, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
So, anyone still saying these hackers aren't terrorists? This bunch hacked into PBS' servers and messed with stuff [...]
Source that these are the same people?
I can confirm that it's the same people. Give a few and I'll provide a link.
edit: I already provided the link..... the excerpt I posted was just the Sony part of it, the actual story was about the PBS hack.
Nothing out there proves it's the same people though. If I put up a thread in the Funhouse saying "We here at NWR are responsible for the hacks into Sony", does that mean that you, bloodwars and Mop it up were involved?
But they are a specific group that claimed responsibility. Did you even click the link?
Quote
LulzSec, a hacker group, has claimed credit for cracking PBS’s website and leaking its login credentials after an episode of its Frontline show–titled “WikiSecrets”–that put a critical spotlight on WikiLeaks and the suspected source of its troves of classified documents, Bradley Manning.
Later in the same article it mentions that they have been responsible for other attacks on Sony and they in their own words claim to be going after Sony more. so how does that not prove that it was them? Unless you want me to check the code and IP addresses of where the attacks were coming from, then I don't see exactly how you are gonna argue it, unless you have proof that it wasn't them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on May 30, 2011, 06:35:58 PM
Whomever is launching these attacks face the about the same hackers, thieves, viruses, and malware that you do.
I guess if it means you're not a coward because of these threats, neither are these guys, right, broodwars?
BlackNMild, I'm not saying it is or isn't the same people - merely pointing out that someone making an anonymous claim on the internet isn't the most reliable source.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on May 30, 2011, 09:29:26 PM
I hope it's something that happens at the E3 video presentation, though this might not have anything to do with the PlayStation, it could be a coincidence that people are taking action against SONY for their bullshit that they dish out in every department of their existence.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on May 31, 2011, 12:39:50 AM
Sony has finally issued an update (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/30/full-psn-services-including-playstation-store-return-this-week/#comments) on the PSN Store on their Blog, confirming that they have yet again failed to fulfill a restoration date promise by failing to have the service up by the end of May. Now the official line is "by the end of the week". Oh joy, even if the PSN store does get restored at the end of the week, I'll be out of town on family business by then till late Monday night. Good job, Sony!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on May 31, 2011, 02:55:09 AM
Sony has finally issued an update (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/30/full-psn-services-including-playstation-store-return-this-week/#comments) on the PSN Store on their Blog, confirming that they have yet again failed to fulfill a restoration date promise by failing to have the service up by the end of May. Now the official line is "by the end of the week". Oh joy, even if the PSN store does get restored at the end of the week, I'll be out of town on family business by then till late Monday night. Good job, Sony!
It boggles the mind how a company can bumble everything they have done so far. If you don't know when your service will be back up, don't give any kind of deadline. It is better to just have it up when it comes up, instead of looking like you can't even keep a simple deadline. When people have products with promised features or content they can't use along with companies getting screwed making games for PSN, there is no excuse for the mishandling of everything. Heck all they would have needed to do is keep people updated on things, and if they were to give time tables just state they are tentative at best, along with squashing any statements about a certain feature being up at a certain time, not on the day of either.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Dasmos on May 31, 2011, 03:04:28 AM
"Indefinitely" sounds a whole lot worse than "the end of the week", or whatever. Even if it doesn't end up being the case.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on May 31, 2011, 03:06:01 AM
Sony has finally issued an update (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/05/30/full-psn-services-including-playstation-store-return-this-week/#comments) on the PSN Store on their Blog, confirming that they have yet again failed to fulfill a restoration date promise by failing to have the service up by the end of May. Now the official line is "by the end of the week". Oh joy, even if the PSN store does get restored at the end of the week, I'll be out of town on family business by then till late Monday night. Good job, Sony!
It boggles the mind how a company can bumble everything they have done so far.
The Phoenix speaks the truth. This whole thing has been a series of unbelievable ****-ups from a giant company who should've known better long ago. Their general attitude has been appalling, too: "**** breaks, you whiners. It's gonna take us some time to build the infrastructure we should've had six years ago." But yeah, this "end of the week" crap is worthless. What was wrong with "end of the month?"
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 31, 2011, 03:16:54 AM
Later in the same article it mentions that they have been responsible for other attacks on Sony and they in their own words claim to be going after Sony more. so how does that not prove that it was them? Unless you want me to check the code and IP addresses of where the attacks were coming from, then I don't see exactly how you are gonna argue it, unless you have proof that it wasn't them.
I read the article, and they took responsibility for hacking Sony's BMG site or something or other in Japan. They claimed responsibility for that but not for attacking PSN.... it is very much possible they are the ones who attacked PSN, but all I'm saying is they didn't claim responsibility for that one, so who knows?
Obviously, they are not the only hacker group out there and Anonymous also still remains a potential suspect in that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on May 31, 2011, 03:39:04 AM
Hey, at this rate the Newscast prediction of the 3DS e-shop coming online before the whole of the Playstation Network is back up might be right.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on May 31, 2011, 09:57:34 AM
Later in the same article it mentions that they have been responsible for other attacks on Sony and they in their own words claim to be going after Sony more. so how does that not prove that it was them? Unless you want me to check the code and IP addresses of where the attacks were coming from, then I don't see exactly how you are gonna argue it, unless you have proof that it wasn't them.
I read the article, and they took responsibility for hacking Sony's BMG site or something or other in Japan. They claimed responsibility for that but not for attacking PSN.... it is very much possible they are the ones who attacked PSN, but all I'm saying is they didn't claim responsibility for that one, so who knows?
Obviously, they are not the only hacker group out there and Anonymous also still remains a potential suspect in that.
WTF are you talking about. Nobody was talking about them hacking PSN. We were talking about this LULz group that claimed to have attacks ready for Sony were the same group responsible for the PBS hack.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on May 31, 2011, 10:18:58 AM
Sorry, I thought this was the PSN thread... my apologies.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on June 02, 2011, 01:22:54 AM
Sony just updated their Blog with the announcement (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2011/06/01/playstation-store-is-available-and-updated-now/) that the PSN Store is back online. The store has a pretty massive update of new content, too, though I see the notable lack of Welcome Back content...I'm on the road until late Monday evening, so I can't verify this on my PS3. I have my PSP with me, but I checked this a minute ago and couldn't connect to the store. Can anyone verify the store's status?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on June 02, 2011, 01:37:55 AM
"An error has occured. ( 80710D36)"
Assuming it's due to everyone on the planet trying to enter the store at the same time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on June 02, 2011, 02:24:12 PM
I kept getting signed out, too, but I did eventually get to download all my DLC vouchers. There was no "Welcome Back" message or content, which was disappointing, but for now it's just good to have the Store back up.
Actually, I have a question now. My system only has 39 gigs left (I know that seems like a lot, but I hate running out of space). What's the safest (EASIEST) way to increase that storage capacity?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on June 02, 2011, 02:39:15 PM
Buy a new 2.5" harddrive and install it. It's easy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 02, 2011, 02:43:20 PM
Buy a new 2.5" harddrive and install it. It's easy.
Yep. All you need is a screwdriver and 5 minutes of your time. Oh, and you also need to have a flash drive with the latest firmware on it. That step is crucial. There are plenty of videos on youtube which show how its done.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on June 02, 2011, 02:55:35 PM
I just haven't brought my self to switch my drive out. How does it handle copying over all the old Data?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 02, 2011, 04:50:00 PM
I think with Playstation Plus it lets you store your games saves online, so if you don't already have Plus then you could wait until you get the free month of it and then take advantage of that to upload your saves and stuff off the old drive and then redownload them to the new drive. I think that should work...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on June 02, 2011, 05:04:07 PM
I think with Playstation Plus it lets you store your games saves online, so if you don't already have Plus then you could wait until you get the free month of it and then take advantage of that to upload your saves and stuff off the old drive and then redownload them to the new drive. I think that should work...
I'm more concerned about my PS2 saves because I have no idea where the transfer card and the actual cards are anymore and I doubt they back those up.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 02, 2011, 05:10:48 PM
Ohh... I have no idea about that. I upgraded the HDD on my friend's PS3 for him because he was afraid to do it himself even though it was simple and painless. But I don't know about backing up stuff because he apparently wasn't concerned about that, so whatever he had was lost but I guess he didn't care.
If you have a USB flash drive you may want to try and see if you can transfer the saves to that. Otherwise like I said maybe you can upload them on Playstation Plus. I don't know if that can be done with PS2 saves or not, but it wouldn't hurt to look into it and find out.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on June 02, 2011, 05:58:10 PM
Greetings folks. We're LulzSec, and welcome to Sownage. Enclosed you will find various collections of data stolen from internal Sony networks and websites, all of which we accessed easily and without the need for outside support or money.
We recently broke into SonyPictures.com and compromised over 1,000,000 users' personal information, including passwords, email addresses, home addresses, dates of birth, and all Sony opt-in data associated with their accounts. Among other things, we also compromised all admin details of Sony Pictures (including passwords) along with 75,000 "music codes" and 3.5 million "music coupons".
Due to a lack of resource on our part (The Lulz Boat needs additional funding!) we were unable to fully copy all of this information, however we have samples for you in our files to prove its authenticity. In theory we could have taken every last bit of information, but it would have taken several more weeks.
Our goal here is not to come across as master hackers, hence what we're about to reveal: SonyPictures.com was owned by a very simple SQL injection, one of the most primitive and common vulnerabilities, as we should all know by now. From a single injection, we accessed EVERYTHING. Why do you put such faith in a company that allows itself to become open to these simple attacks?
What's worse is that every bit of data we took wasn't encrypted. Sony stored over 1,000,000 passwords of its customers in plaintext, which means it's just a matter of taking it. This is disgraceful and insecure: they were asking for it.
This is an embarrassment to Sony; the SQLi link is provided in our file contents, and we invite anyone with the balls to check for themselves that what we say is true. You may even want to plunder those 3.5 million coupons while you can.
Included in our collection are databases from Sony BMG Belgium & Netherlands. These also contain varied assortments of Sony user and staffer information.
Follow our sexy asses on twitter to hear about our upcoming website. Ciao! ^_^
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on June 02, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
Pardon my French, but FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
brb, changing passwords.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 02, 2011, 06:28:10 PM
Yeah, apparently Sony stores all its customer data on all of its sites in plain text. The lesson here is don't give Sony your info.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 02, 2011, 07:13:34 PM
Quote
Due to a lack of resource on our part (The Lulz Boat needs additional funding!)
Well, why don't they just use all the credit card info they stole to pay for it? If you're going to be a criminal, might as well do it right.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 02, 2011, 07:35:54 PM
Due to a lack of resource on our part (The Lulz Boat needs additional funding!)
Well, why don't they just use all the credit card info they stole to pay for it? If you're going to be a criminal, might as well do it right.
Well, the difference may be that they consider credit card fraud to be immoral, whereas hacking websites may be criminal but in their view it may not be immoral. They seem to think they are doing the right thing...
ETA: and yeah, I don't think Credit Card numbers were actually taken this time around. Just passwords and basic stuff like that.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on June 02, 2011, 07:50:24 PM
Why would Sony Pictures have credit card information?
And any credit card would have had lulz-aiding charges reversed on sight.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on June 02, 2011, 08:05:09 PM
Due to a lack of resource on our part (The Lulz Boat needs additional funding!)
Well, why don't they just use all the credit card info they stole to pay for it? If you're going to be a criminal, might as well do it right.
Err, maybe they did it for the LOLz? You can feel the disappointment as to how easy it was. Sounds like thy used their personal computers in contrast to the PSN hack as it looks like they lacked bandwidth for all the info.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on June 02, 2011, 09:02:15 PM
As a developer I could see the conversation back when it was being built.
Programmer: We should encrypt these passwords but it will add at least a week to the programming. Bean Counter: Nope to long Programmer: I can Guarentee that it will pay back overtime Bean Counter: Nope
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on June 02, 2011, 09:38:10 PM
Quote from: boards.sonypictures.com
Sorry, the board is unavailable at the moment while we are testing some functionality. We will be back soon...
I hope their functionality includes password salting that wasn't designed by a monkey.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 02, 2011, 09:46:49 PM
I don't mean to make this religious, but Jesus Fucking Christ.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on June 03, 2011, 01:49:15 AM
I'm holed-up in an Arizona motel tonight on a weak connection, but I still managed to connect to the PSP Store and...somehow...download some demos. The store's a real mess, though. One upside to being on the road while the store went up is that it'll probably be sorted out by the time I get home. I hope tomorrow brings the Welcome Back content when the store is updated, as I'll actually be in a stable network environment so I can download my 2 Free PSP titles.
As for the latest Sony issue, I'll wait to pass judgement on Sony for the time being until we have more information. I had an account on that website...I think, but I didn't have any CC info on it. Whatever they did or didn't find, though, it doesn't excuse these guys hacking into another Sony site. Considering they've been posting stuff on Twitter, I'm curious if they were sloppy enough to be traced through it.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on June 03, 2011, 11:29:52 AM
I really, really want to see someone make even bigger asses of Sony at their keynote next week. :)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 03, 2011, 12:22:37 PM
They better make sure that whatever system they are using to demonstrate/present is not online connected in anyway. Although it would be funny to see everything go wrong for them, I don't want to actually see their E3 presentation go down that way.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ian Sane on June 03, 2011, 12:23:00 PM
Fucking with their keynote would be funny, especially since it would only jerk around Sony themselves and not Sony customers.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: bustin98 on June 03, 2011, 12:33:30 PM
As a developer I could see the conversation back when it was being built.
Programmer: We should encrypt these passwords but it will add at least an hour to the programming. Bean Counter: Nope to long Programmer: I can guarantee that it will pay back over time Bean Counter: Nope
fixed
Encrypting passwords is so easy to do and there isn't a reason not to. Its not like you can call customer support and say 'Hey, I forgot my password. Can you look it up and tell me what it is? Oh, nevermind, Lulz did it for me. Thanks any way.'
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on June 03, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
As a developer I could see the conversation back when it was being built.
Programmer: We should encrypt these passwords but it will add at least an hour to the programming. Bean Counter: Nope to long Programmer: I can guarantee that it will pay back over time Bean Counter: Nope
fixed
Encrypting passwords is so easy to do and there isn't a reason not to. Its not like you can call customer support and say 'Hey, I forgot my password. Can you look it up and tell me what it is? Oh, nevermind, Lulz did it for me. Thanks any way.'
I always pad.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 03, 2011, 12:58:37 PM
Sony's demonstration of PS Pita's online experience may go a little something like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzFUcDKC64E
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on June 03, 2011, 06:26:22 PM
Soooo I was able to get Killzone Liberation after picking it and LittleBigPlanet, but now there's a problem. Killzone appeared on my "downloads" list but LBP didn't. And I can't re-choose either one...it's like I picked my games and now I'm locked out, but I don't have LBP. I might have to email them...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Shaymin on June 03, 2011, 07:34:30 PM
Quote
Q: I no longer have the option to choose my free Welcome Back games. What can I do?
A: If you navigate away from the Welcome Back section of the store without choosing your free games or exit the store completely you may need to follow the below in order to choose and download your free games.
On your PlayStation 3 or PlayStation Portable navigate to the PlayStation Network icon on the XMB
Log into your PlayStation Network account and choose Account Management > Transaction Management > Services List
Choose “PlayStation Network Promotions” from the list of services displayed
Select either “PS3 Free Games” or “PSP Free Games” and then choose “Select Content”
You will be taken to the store to choose your remaining free games.
Source is GAF, presumably they got it from the Playstation blog
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on June 03, 2011, 07:46:49 PM
Thanks, hopefully this'll solve it.
The store is getting PWNED right now. I can't even sign in successfully.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SlighTlyKauLField on June 04, 2011, 04:10:03 AM
i'm confused, are the free ps3 games up yet?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 04, 2011, 08:50:58 AM
Yeah, they are. I'm surprised no one took a moment to announce that in this thread... but yeah, they went up yesterday.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on June 04, 2011, 11:40:10 AM
Yeah, they are. I'm surprised no one took a moment to announce that in this thread... but yeah, they went up yesterday.
I've been a bit busy driving across country, myself.
I've downloaded my two free PSP games (LittleBigPlanet and Killzone Liberation). Looking forward to getting home on Monday and getting my two free PS3 games (LittleBigPlanet and Infamous).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 04, 2011, 12:54:13 PM
I haven't bothered with it yet, but I wonder if I can at least activate the 2 PSP games even though I don't actually own a PSP and then at some point in the future if I ever do get a PSP they will be accessible. Is that possible?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: ShyGuy on June 04, 2011, 02:04:38 PM
I tried to download the free games, but their system kept getting errors.
You have to go the Welcome back section of the store, "purchase" a free game voucher, then choose a game to download.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 04, 2011, 02:39:51 PM
If you get an error just go back and keep trying until it works. I'm getting those errors all the time as I navigate around the store, but if you are patient and just keep trying eventually you can get stuff done.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Halbred on June 04, 2011, 02:49:08 PM
I successfully got all four games (LBP, Killzone, inFamous, and Wipeout). Now I'm having a helluva time downloading add-on DLC for LBP PSP. I got one thing successfully but then that particular menu went completely blank.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: lolmonade on June 04, 2011, 05:10:21 PM
Yeah, they are. I'm surprised no one took a moment to announce that in this thread... but yeah, they went up yesterday.
I've been a bit busy driving across country, myself.
I've downloaded my two free PSP games (LittleBigPlanet and Killzone Liberation). Looking forward to getting home on Monday and getting my two free PS3 games (LittleBigPlanet and Infamous).
Just a suggestion, but if you're willing to buy used, you can get both LittleBigPlanet and inFamous for SUPER cheap online right now because everyone is pawning theirs off now. So you could probably download 2 of the other titles and get those games for under $5. Just thinking of ways to maximize your payoff for this.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 04, 2011, 05:15:11 PM
If you were lucky enough to have 3 or more PSN accounts prior to the hacking then you are able to get all of the games spread out over all of those accounts...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: stevey on June 05, 2011, 09:07:45 AM
Looks like it's Nintendo's turn to be hacked (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS88WzLut63AY1Xhqqeu2weo85aw?docId=d9d583e4a21c4969821799abd526c542)
Good news is that nothing happened to any customers or their information.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 05, 2011, 09:21:23 AM
Looks like it's Nintendo's turn to be hacked (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS88WzLut63AY1Xhqqeu2weo85aw?docId=d9d583e4a21c4969821799abd526c542)
Good news is that nothing happened to any customers or their information.
Nothing happened probably because Nintendo probably had more sense than to store **** in plain text format. Sony should not be forgiven for placing credit card numbers, passwords, and other sensitive information in plain text format. Anyone who gives a **** about their customers would not do that. That's why I say anyone who is a fan of Sony is a submissive masochist who loves to be treated like dirt. That's the only way it can be explained why someone would be a fan of them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on June 05, 2011, 10:17:06 AM
Anyone who gives a **** about their customers would not do that. That's why I say anyone who is a fan of Sony is a submissive masochist who loves to be treated like dirt. That's the only way it can be explained why someone would be a fan of them.
You'd think, at least. The entire rootkit fiasco should have turned everyone off to them years ago. Never mind all of their dirty, underhanded legal battles against the competition.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 05, 2011, 10:42:00 AM
Looks like it's Nintendo's turn to be hacked (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS88WzLut63AY1Xhqqeu2weo85aw?docId=d9d583e4a21c4969821799abd526c542)
Good news is that nothing happened to any customers or their information.
I was gonna post about this yesterday as it is that LULz group again that's been braggin about hacking Sony, the FBI* and now Nintendo.
They said they were just playing with the the site seeing if there were any security holes but wouldn't full on attack Nintendo (or Sega for that matter) because they love them too much.
We're not targeting Nintendo. We like the N64 too much - we sincerely hope Nintendo plugs the gap. This is just for lulz. <3
We love SNES, Megadrive, N64, Dreamcast... Sega & Nintendo have a special place in our Lulz Boat. Desert Strike, anyone? #MEGADRIVE
But it looks like they were searching for E3 info... Luckily Nintendo doesn't have any information they are holding secret actually attached to anything as they probably keep it on internal servers that don't get connected/uploaded or whatever until it's time to go live.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 05, 2011, 12:18:48 PM
By my count this is unlucky hack number 13 for Sony. A Lebanese hacker known as Idahc dumped another user database at Sony Europe containing approximately 120 usernames, passwords (plain text), mobile phone numbers, work emails and website addresses.
The attacker claims that he used standard SQL injection techniques to acquire the database. I think it is fair to say it appears that Sony has not learned anything from the previous 12 attacks.
& more from LULzSec
Quote
NFS13EPIC @LulzSec still on psn and loving my safe service. 4 minutes ago
LulzSec @NFS13EPIC What makes you think PSN data isn't being sniffed right now? 3 minutes ago in reply to NFS13EPIC
Dear Sony, Please get your **** together and stop this embarrassment.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 05, 2011, 01:17:15 PM
Well, on the bright side, if PSN does get hacked again maybe we'll get some more free games out of the deal. What will Sony offer in Customer Appreciation Program 2.0?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Enner on June 05, 2011, 01:37:47 PM
Anyone who gives a **** about their customers would not do that. That's why I say anyone who is a fan of Sony is a submissive masochist who loves to be treated like dirt. That's the only way it can be explained why someone would be a fan of them.
You'd think, at least. The entire rootkit fiasco should have turned everyone off to them years ago. Never mind all of their dirty, underhanded legal battles against the competition.
I'd imagine a lot of people don't care or don't want to care. For certain, they wouldn't care about the lawsuits. As for the music CD root kits, that maybe all forgotten given how a lot of music is available digitally now. For the time between, perhaps some Sony fans didn't care about Sony-published music and thought the news and company practices doesn't affect them. Even now with the network hacks, there may still be Sony fans that like their electronics, cameras, or other equipment for some reason or another.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on June 05, 2011, 03:02:29 PM
Even now with the network hacks, there may still be Sony fans that like their electronics, cameras, or other equipment for some reason or another.
Yeah, I can see how some people might like overpriced, yet completely mediocre hardware that's often locked down with ridiculous DRM and proprietary file formats and media. You got it right in the first sentence, most people just don't care. It's all about brand, and Sony is somehow still riding on their reputation from the 70s and 80s.
Search for Sony Computer Entertainment in the Owner field
Title: LulzSec hacker Arrested. PSN source code leaked.
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 06, 2011, 07:56:10 PM
LulzSec Hacker arrested. PSN Source Code Leaked to internet http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/technology/lulzsec-member-arrested-group-leaks-sony-database-57296.html (http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/technology/lulzsec-member-arrested-group-leaks-sony-database-57296.html)
Quote
Around 11 a.m., Sony Computer Entertainment’s Developer Network Source Code was hacked and uploaded to several file sharing websites by a group of hackers known as Lulz Security (LulzSec) under the Twitter name @LulzSec.
One member of the group, Robert Cavanaugh, was apprehended and taken into custody by the FBI after an apparent counter hack, according to an internal chat log from their private IRC server, posted through SecList, a network mapper website.
The developer network source code leaked by the group on June 6 is principally the design recipe for the resource network where developers embed their programming, like PlayStation games. With it, hackers would be able to make changes to it, reverse-engineering the network and creating duplicates or different versions.
They would also be able use the source code to find holes in the system and exploit them, wreaking further havoc on Sony’s already battered network security team.
Although previous hacks into the network allowed many people to illegally download games for free and access Sony programming resources, it is possible that with the source code, a hacker could potentially duplicate a form of the network so that he would have constant real time access to it.
more at the link
One taken down... but the damage has already been done.
Poor Sony.... hope they have a good conference to take their minds off of it... even if it's only for a little bit.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Adrock on June 06, 2011, 08:01:19 PM
Mr. Cavanaugh will likely be sentenced to Federal Pound-Me-In-The-Ass Prison. I hope he likes penis.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 06, 2011, 08:14:35 PM
LulzSec is claiming that he isn't one of theirs
Quote from: twitter
Interesting... this article claims one of us was arrested: http://bit.ly/koKSkV That's strange because all of us are still here. Uh-oh! 37 minutes ago
So if we're here... and someone is arrested... then how did... we... oh lawdy, Robert Cavanaugh. You dun goofed. 30 minutes ago
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 06, 2011, 08:20:39 PM
Hackers got hacked? Well, I guess he isn't LULZing anymore.
Hopefully he is actually guilty, though, and not some innocent bystander. Wouldn't it be ironic if it was some Sony supporter like TJ Spyke who got arrested? I can see how that could conceivably happen just by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 06, 2011, 08:21:35 PM
Now that would be LULz worthy.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: stevey on June 06, 2011, 08:28:32 PM
Sony to the world: YOU'RE WELCOME
Did all the executives short their stocks or something?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 07, 2011, 12:33:47 AM
NO POLITICS. I'm not even sure how you even thought to compare the two anyway.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Stogi on June 07, 2011, 01:02:44 AM
Burn
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: SixthAngel on June 07, 2011, 04:07:15 AM
So Sony is so incompetent that their network may never be secure now?
It wouldn't surprise me if the guy they caught wasn't really one of them or if he is one of the lowest level/worst hackers since he actually got caught.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 07, 2011, 09:44:26 AM
Whether he was one of them or not, I bet its going to be much harder now for the rest of them to be apprehended. I'm sure they will be more careful now in their future hackings.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on June 19, 2011, 07:09:43 PM
I thought you guys might find this interesting http://lulzsecexposed.blogspot.com/
Some other hacker has set put to expose LulzSec and he is outing them one by one... pics, names, everything.
There is more info where I found it here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=28653230&postcount=1
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on June 20, 2011, 09:19:35 AM
I'd like to slap them for stealing my info, but thank them for the free games (and exposing Sony's lack of security).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Oblivion on June 20, 2011, 10:22:52 AM
oh **** this is getting interesting
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: GoldenPhoenix on June 20, 2011, 07:18:03 PM
Why does it sound like a bunch of immature kids? I am not that familiar with the hacker community, but the stuff they say makes them sound like they are from middle school.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on June 21, 2011, 12:24:39 AM
You sound like you're from middle school. I'm rubber and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you! Oh, and you have cooties!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: oohhboy on June 21, 2011, 01:59:46 AM
How can they be sure that it them? Last time someone tried the whole social fishing and tracking expedition when they went after Anon it ended in complete destruction of said company. Every person they had fingered were innocent and wasted countless amount of the FBI's time and 10's of millions of dollars on a modern witch hunt.
How is this different? If they, by chance, managed to tag one hacker, what about all the other unrelated people caught in the dragnet, what ratio is acceptable? Those people are going to face harassment and prosecution because someone head got too fat and didn't do the investigative work. I believe in Batman first before I believe these guys.
In any case, it hasn't slowed them down so far (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13848510).
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on June 22, 2011, 06:55:15 AM
I hope they haven't forgotten about their crusade against Sony. I'm hoping for some more free games from Customer Appreciation Program 2.0. ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on June 22, 2011, 12:52:08 PM
Got Wipeout and Infamous with mine. Now I need to find 8gigs of space...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Despicable on June 22, 2011, 03:27:43 PM
No wonder they got HACKED. :P:
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on September 06, 2011, 06:49:28 PM
Sony hires former Homeland Security official to head up their network security. (http://gamergaia.com/ps3/1852-sony-hires-former-homeland-security-employee-as-head-of-network-security.html) Y'know, because Homeland Security has such a great track record... ???
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: broodwars on September 06, 2011, 06:53:09 PM
Sony hires former Homeland Security official to head up their network security. (http://gamergaia.com/ps3/1852-sony-hires-former-homeland-security-employee-as-head-of-network-security.html) Y'know, because Homeland Security has such a great track record... :confused;
Well, actually they do. We haven't had a major terrorist attack on the U.S. since 9/11/2001. Whether coincidental or the result of efforts behind the scene we aren't informed about (the truth is probably somewhere in-between), the Agency still comes off looking good in the public eye. Likewise, most people will take this news as a positive sign for the PSN.
And you know what will happen if you keep going down this road, Morari. Let's just leave this as an interesting move by Sony and see what happens with the download service in the future.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on September 06, 2011, 07:26:47 PM
Well, actually they do. We haven't had a major terrorist attack on the U.S. since 9/11/2001.
It's just security theater, meant more to keep the US populace in check than stopping imaginary foreign foes. I don't recall a whole lot of terrorist attacks prior to 9/11/2001 and the wide scale deployment of such specialized and overpowered agencies. Funny how that works, isn't it? The agency comes off as positive in the eyes of the public because most people are sheep and the media is largely bought and paid for.
Regardless, this doesn't seem like a monumental move by Sony... good or bad. They definitely don't need more narrow-minded suits though. They need to start embracing and hiring the hackers instead. Work closer with the community and paint themselves as less of a target. Then again, maybe Sony doesn't want to actually fix their problems. Perhaps they want another dose of "security through obscurity", in which case the Homeland Security mentality is right up their alley.
And you know what will happen if you keep going down this road, Broodwars. Let's just leave this as an interesting move by Sony and see what happens with the download service in the future.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 06, 2011, 08:36:51 PM
Wow, that's probably the worst thing to ever happen to PSN. Just what we need - the head of a department whose job it is to spy on US citizens (among other things, of course). Yay for security!
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 06, 2011, 08:40:13 PM
Homeland Security doesn't spy on US citizens (though I know some paranoid people think they do). This is a good thing, maybe it will help stop these criminals from hacking into PSN.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 06, 2011, 08:48:45 PM
I hope that's a joke.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: TJ Spyke on September 06, 2011, 09:02:31 PM
Which part? There are government agencies that can legally spy (to a certain extent) if they get court permission. And hacking into PSN is illegal, so the people doing it ARE criminals by definition. Someone coming from HLS could help stop them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: UncleBob on September 06, 2011, 09:42:47 PM
Oh, geeze... let's just stop this debate right here. No politics.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 07, 2011, 06:01:53 AM
Homeland Security doesn't spy on US citizens (though I know some paranoid people think they do).
I wonder what TJ Spyke would say if Homeland Security and Sony ever ended up as enemies to one another. He would probably end up like that computer on one of those episodes of Star Trek that couldn't solve a paradox so it kept computing until it blew up. That's what would happen to his brain if he ever had to decide between supporting Sony or a Police State and could only side with one.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on September 15, 2011, 02:00:04 PM
Sony's Amends Terms of Service to Block Class Action Lawsuits (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37262/Sony_Amends_Online_Terms_To_Block_Class_Action_Lawsuits.php)
Maybe if they'd stop making such dick moves, they wouldn't have to worry about their users suing them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 02:14:44 PM
How can Sony override government legislations? They can put any crap they want in their ToS, but it isn't going to hold up in court. Or at least I hope not... the government should make the laws, not Sony. I mean, they could insert a clause in their ToS saying they have the right to murder you, but just because they say that doesn't mean its true.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 02:29:04 PM
I might as well go ahead and hack my PS3 now because there is no way I am going to accept that bullshit. I was content to not hack it before, but this is just too much. Hopefully there aren't too many suckers out there who fall for this crap and forfeit their rights to justice.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on September 15, 2011, 03:12:44 PM
You're right, really. A quick ToS or EULA really doesn't hold up at all. Still, the thought that they even put that in there should be upsetting. Given their history as a company though, it's not surprising that they'd want some protection from their fans.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 03:24:39 PM
I hope Sony gets hacked again and I hope the next time it puts an end to them for good. I hope the Vita fails and the PS4 fails and then Sony is done. End of story. Any company that treats consumers the way Sony does doesn't deserve to exist.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 15, 2011, 04:52:37 PM
Before you get your panties all up in a bunch
Quote
RIGHT TO OPT OUT OF BINDING ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER WITHIN 30 DAYS. IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO BE BOUND BY THE BINDING ARBITRATION AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER IN THIS SECTION 15, YOU MUST NOTIFY SNEI IN WRITING WITHIN 30 DAYS OF THE DATE THAT YOU ACCEPT THIS AGREEMENT. YOUR WRITTEN NOTIFICATION MUST BE MAILED TO 6080 CENTER DRIVE, 10TH FLOOR, LOS ANGELES, CA 90045, ATTN: LEGAL DEPARTMENT/ARBITRATION AND MUST INCLUDE: (1) YOUR NAME, (2) YOUR ADDRESS, (3) YOUR PSN ACCOUNT NUMBER, IF YOU HAVE ONE, AND (4) A CLEAR STATEMENT THAT YOU DO NOT WISH TO RESOLVE DISPUTES WITH ANY SONY ENTITY THROUGH ARBITRATION.
So you can still agree to new ToS and continue to use your PSN account as usual, while not being bound to this lawsuit thing.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on September 15, 2011, 04:54:02 PM
Send them a bill for postage, materials, and time along with the notification.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Ceric on September 15, 2011, 04:57:22 PM
What do you guys say. Are time is worth $10,000 per hour. Seems about right.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 05:32:33 PM
Maybe I can just create a new PSN account and accept the terms on that without accepting them on my existing account. Would that work?
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: NWR_insanolord on September 15, 2011, 06:22:38 PM
As has been pointed out, this wouldn't hold up in court. Don't worry about it and just accept them.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on September 15, 2011, 06:27:56 PM
Except it might http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/judicial/2011-04-27-supreme-court-class-actions_n.htm
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on September 15, 2011, 07:06:14 PM
Go ahead and agree, just remember to send in your letter stating that you opt-out of the "no class-action" part within the 30 days.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 07:39:44 PM
Go ahead and agree, just remember to send in your letter stating that you opt-out of the "no class-action" part within the 30 days.
I'm picturing thousands of opt-out letters arriving at Sony and then promptly getting shredded or mysteriously "misplaced" never to be seen again. What recourse would you have if Sony claims after the expiration date that they never received your letter? If this were some neutral 3rd party (which it should be) then maybe I could trust the letters would get through and be counted, but since its Sony... That's the equivalent of having an election and one of the candidates handling and counting the votes. Yeah, there's no potential for mischief...
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BranDonk Kong on September 15, 2011, 08:41:34 PM
Just send it as a certified letter.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 15, 2011, 11:00:11 PM
How do you join the class action lawsuits which apparently have already been filed? I want to get in on that but I don't know what to do.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: MegaByte on September 15, 2011, 11:13:31 PM
You don't "join" as such, if you're part of the class, you're part of the class and actually have to opt out or you will lose your ability to sue separately. At some point, you'll need to send in verification to get whatever the settlement is -- usually they contact you about that first, but usually there's a website to register on in case you've been missed. If you're talking about actually having a say in the lawsuit, I guess you'd have to contact the lawyers representing the class.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Morari on September 16, 2011, 12:08:18 PM
That was a timely turn of events for this discussion. :P
Now without getting into the politics of just how retarded this entire thing is, at least Franken and Grassley seemed to think that it dearly needed scaled back in some areas.
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: Chozo Ghost on September 19, 2011, 03:01:16 AM
When the PSN was hacked back in April it was like the end of Star Wars IV: A New Hope when the rebels blew up the death star, but as we all know that didn't destroy the empire. What we are seeing right now with Sony teaming up with Homeland Security and adding more bullshit to the Terms of Service means we are now witnessing the equivalent of Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.
I'm pretty sure that bounty hunters have a lot more honor and decency than Homeland Security... :P: :
Somehow I doubt that the Department of Homeland Security has a policy on disintegrations. ;)
Title: Re: PSN = Privacy? Security? Never!
Post by: BlackNMild2k1 on October 11, 2011, 10:29:51 PM
93,000 Accounts accessed on PSN/SOE http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201110/11-1012E/index.html
Quote
Tokyo, October 12 - Sony Network Entertainment International LLC and Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) have detected a large amount of unauthorized sign-in attempts on PlayStation®Network (PSN), Sony Entertainment Network (SEN) and Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) services. We discovered these attempts and have taken steps to mitigate the activity.
Less than one tenth of one percent of our PSN, SEN and SOE consumers may have been affected. There were approximately 93,000 accounts (PSN/SEN: approximately 60,000 accounts; SOE: approximately 33,000) where the attempts succeeded in verifying those accounts’ valid sign-in IDs and passwords, and we have temporarily locked these accounts. As a preventative measure, we will be sending email notifications to these account holders and will be requiring secure password resets or informing consumers of password reset procedures.
Credit card numbers associated with these accounts are not at risk as a result of these unauthorized attempts. Only a small fraction of these 93,000 accounts showed additional activity prior to being locked. We are continuing to investigate the extent of unauthorized activity on any of these accounts.
These attempts appear to include a large amount of data obtained from one or more compromised lists from other companies, sites or sources. These were unauthorized attempts to verify valid user accounts on our services using very large sets of sign-in IDs and passwords. Between October 7 - 10 US Pacific Daylight Time, we confirmed that these were unauthorized attempts, and took steps to thwart this activity.
